The Thirteenth Doctor: Jodie Whittaker

[DanaK]

I'm an American who never watched this show before but was generally aware of it through the decades. So out of curiosity, I tuned into the premiere and liked it immediately and especially the Doctor and have decided to watch the season. I have since read up on the details of the show and so have a general idea of what's going on and I have now seen Day of the Doctor (the War Doctor special) and part of Matt Smith's introductory episode. In general, the most exposure I've had now is watching Jodie's episodes and I think she's doing great. I love the show's and this Doctor's humor. Once she got past the obligatory "who the heck am I" stuff, the Doctor just comes off as a lot of fun, warm, very knowledgeable, etc. 

A lot of the angst and negativity about having a female Doctor reminds me too much of the angst about Star Trek casting a female Captain for the first time as the series lead, or a black Captain for the first time. But, it sounds as though most have accepted Jodi and many of those who were reluctant came around. My feeling about the fact that there have only been male Doctors before so there can't be a female is that the real world politics/society made it so, and if the show had only started in current times, there would have naturally been more female Doctors. So it's best to just get on with it.

[Mabinogia]

7 hours ago, DanaK said:

I love the show's and this Doctor's humor. Once she got past the obligatory "who the heck am I" stuff, the Doctor just comes off as a lot of fun, warm, very knowledgeable, etc. 

I love it too. The past few seasons have been pretty angsty and emo so Jodie/13 really is a breath of fresh air and I love her sense of wonder and excitement. I was never bothered by the sex change, I was just worried about them finding the right actress, and I think they did. Jodie is perfect. 

[justmehere]

In some ways, I like Jodie very much. In others... her performance is starting to feel too narrow. There are some nice moments, but there's too much breathlessness as drama, and it feels like too many lines that ought to stand out get lost. Some of the rest is the writing and stories themselves. I appreciate that they wanted a change, but this season doesn't feel much like Doctor Who to me. She doesn't feel distinctly like the Doctor. I can't quite put my finger on it. It almost feels like it could be anyone in the episodes because the Doctor isn't standing out, but it's certainly not all Jodie.

[DanaK]

On 11/5/2018 at 5:34 PM, Mabinogia said:

I love it too. The past few seasons have been pretty angsty and emo so Jodie/13 really is a breath of fresh air and I love her sense of wonder and excitement. I was never bothered by the sex change, I was just worried about them finding the right actress, and I think they did. Jodie is perfect. 

I'm really enjoying Jodie and #13, but as a new viewer, I'm already beginning to wonder if I can accept a change to another actor when it comes. I don't know how long term viewers do it, but somehow they manage it seems (or they wait until another one comes along that they like). This show is so unique in how it continues to change the lead actor (as the same character) every few years and yet chugs along. Do long time viewers have a particular way of just enjoying the incumbent without thinking about losing that person in a few years?

[Llywela]

8 minutes ago, DanaK said:

I'm really enjoying Jodie and #13, but as a new viewer, I'm already beginning to wonder if I can accept a change to another actor when it comes. I don't know how long term viewers do it, but somehow they manage it seems (or they wait until another one comes along that they like). This show is so unique in how it continues to change the lead actor (as the same character) every few years and yet chugs along. Do long time viewers have a particular way of just enjoying the incumbent without thinking about losing that person in a few years?

Honestly, you get used to it.

That said, it probably does help to have grown up with it - my earliest memory of Doctor Who is seeing Tom Baker turn into Peter Davison when I was four! Regeneration is part of the show and something all viewers have to accept and learn to roll with. But if you find yourself struggling with a new regeneration...well, that's what DVDs of your favourite past era are for!

Also, eventually, Big Finish.

[DanaK]

3 minutes ago, Llywela said:

Also, eventually, Big Finish.

You mean the radio show?

[Kromm]

7 hours ago, DanaK said:

I'm really enjoying Jodie and #13, but as a new viewer, I'm already beginning to wonder if I can accept a change to another actor when it comes. I don't know how long term viewers do it, but somehow they manage it seems (or they wait until another one comes along that they like). This show is so unique in how it continues to change the lead actor (as the same character) every few years and yet chugs along. Do long time viewers have a particular way of just enjoying the incumbent without thinking about losing that person in a few years?

Think of it this way. When there's a new Doctor, it's a character with a shared history with the Doctor you are used to, but a different personality.  So it avoids the trap of lets say... a new person playing Mary Poppins, because you shouldn't expect this person to sound or act like the former one.  But at the same time, the stories can be linked and this new person can remember what the old one did without any explanation being needed.

[Llywela]

9 hours ago, DanaK said:

You mean the radio show?

Audio plays. All living former Doctor Who actors eventually end up having more adventures together in that format!

[HauntedBathroom]

On 16/11/2018 at 3:21 AM, justmehere said:

In some ways, I like Jodie very much. In others... her performance is starting to feel too narrow. There are some nice moments, but there's too much breathlessness as drama, and it feels like too many lines that ought to stand out get lost. Some of the rest is the writing and stories themselves. I appreciate that they wanted a change, but this season doesn't feel much like Doctor Who to me. She doesn't feel distinctly like the Doctor. I can't quite put my finger on it. It almost feels like it could be anyone in the episodes because the Doctor isn't standing out, but it's certainly not all Jodie.

I think that the problem with 13 is that she's being written as extremely generic. Jodie is doing her best to give the performance some spark and quirk, but what do we know about 13? She opposes cruelty, she's curious, she likes her friends, she stands against messing with history? That's fairly basic Doctor stuff. To date, she's not had any moments or speeches that feel hers.

 

One thing fans love to do at conventions is to get Doctors to read other Doctors speeches - has Jodie had a single moment yet that you could see Colin Baker delivering in front of a hall of fans? At the moment she reminds me of 8, until Paul McGann started doing Big Finish no one had a clue of 8's character actually was.

[benteen]

Sometimes it takes a Doctor at least another season for them to find their voice.  Look at the 7th Doctor...he was written as more of a 2nd Doctor type during his first season, more clownish.  But by his second season, he'd been reimagined as this powerful chessmaster type, always outthinking his enemies.  

[ZoqFotPik]

Shitty news if true. I really like Jodie. https://wegotthiscovered.com/tv/jodie-whittaker-chris-chibnall-rumored-leave-doctor-2019/?fbclid=IwAR28-y-cYFwCN0wf0r-YI3y9ypPcVf1EO-u46l9sbDcnAVJ_RRaYdhio5v8#gallery-4

[HauntedBathroom]

If it's true, I'll not miss Chibnall, but Jodie could be good with a talented writer.

[DanaK]

It sounds more like what if and conjecture for now and still very much in the rumor stages. But the show has done split seasons before so hopefully things will get worked out. I hope Jodie watches out for the bigger picture and doesn't just follow Chibnall if he leaves out of blind loyalty. This is a role of a lifetime for a British actor and especially with playing the first female Doctor

As an American, I still don't understand why it takes so long to make a season of this show. Even the various Star Trek shows managed to make 22-24 episodes in a season and they too were scifi with a lot of effects.

[HauntedBathroom]

They had a larger regular cast, and had multiple standing sets to use each episode.  Plus, a 20+ episode season isn't natural for UK television. Either you're a soap on every week, or it's a 6-8 episode season. See The Bodyguard.

[DanaK]

On 11/21/2018 at 6:24 PM, HauntedBathroom said:

They had a larger regular cast, and had multiple standing sets to use each episode.  Plus, a 20+ episode season isn't natural for UK television. Either you're a soap on every week, or it's a 6-8 episode season. See The Bodyguard.

It sounds like Doctor Who is perhaps the hardest TV job a British actor can do (for British roles). How long does it take to shoot most regular shows of 6-10 episodes? Maybe 4-5 months?

[Jacqs]

I wonder if the anti-Jodie male fans know that the expression "cultural Marxism" that they spray around, was coined by Hitler?

[DanaK]

So far, I am loving Jodie's take on the Doctor. I managed to binge-watch Capaldi's 3 seasons during the middle of this season and 13 is certainly the complete opposite of Mr. Cranky-Pants, but I think that's the way the showrunner wanted to go to bring in new viewers (and bring back old viewers). I also binge-watched the first 2 seasons of Broadchurch and the first season of Jodie's Trust Me series and Jodie certainly has incredible range. I'm not sure anyone expected her to be able to play the Who humor given all the waterworks on Broadchurch and many of her past roles, but she seems to be holding her own on DW in both comedy and drama

I have noticed that though #13 is whimsical and eccentric (and a real motor mouth at times), she can get pretty serious with foes, especially out of earshot of her companions. For example, she stomped all over the Rosa villain and sent Tim Shaw packing in the first episode. She asks a heck of a lot of questions and is intensely curious about things. I've also noticed how brave she is, always getting in front of her companions and other people to protect them from danger. In contrast to Capaldi's Doctor, she seems to really like humans and has a lot of empathy for people in trouble, though she was kind of nasty to Graham and Erik in the 9th episode to get them to wake up to the danger. Like Capaldi and probably many or all of the Doctors, she doesn't particularly like authority and definitely not idiots in charge

[DanaK]

I also appreciate that Jodie was brave enough to step up to be the first female Doctor in the show’s history. The first one was always going to take slings and arrows from certain segments of the fandom and she seems to be strong enough to take it

[QuantumMechanic]

On 11/19/2018 at 4:55 AM, ZoqFotPik said:

Shitty news if true. I really like Jodie. https://wegotthiscovered.com/tv/jodie-whittaker-chris-chibnall-rumored-leave-doctor-2019/?fbclid=IwAR28-y-cYFwCN0wf0r-YI3y9ypPcVf1EO-u46l9sbDcnAVJ_RRaYdhio5v8#gallery-4

The Chibnall part would be wonderful news if true (sadly, I doubt it).  I'm liking Whittaker, but she'd be so much better with better scripts.  (And unsurprisingly, the best shows of the season weren't written by Chibnall.)

Edited December 12, 2018 by QuantumMechanic

[Riplet68]

Really like this Doctor, she’s hitting all the right notes.  The writing on the show leaves much to be desired,

[clack]

I never invested in the premises and rules of the DWverse enough to care about the gender swap. So much of the show's world-building points to conditions outside of that fictional world, to the real life, practical considerations of making a 21st century BBC TV show. DW doesn't make sense internally.

Why is the 13th Doctor a woman, after 12 previous incarnations and 1000 years as a man?

Because it's a TV show.

Why do incarnations 9 through 13 set up shop in early 21st century London, with all time and space at their disposal?

Because it's a TV show.

Why are almost all companions British, a people who comprise such a small part of the world's population?

Because it's a TV show.

Edited January 19, 2019 by clack

[DanaK]

1 hour ago, clack said:

Why is the 13th Doctor a woman, after 12 previous incarnations and 1000 years as a man?

Because it's a TV show.

Moreso, real world considerations and biases

[ketose]

"It's a TV show" is a little glib because the show is Doctor Who. Long time fans have some expectation that if the name on the tin is something they know, they should be able to recognize the contents. If you buy carrots and there are peas inside, there's some trickery going on. If you buy mixed vegetables and you get corn instead of peas in the mix, that's change.

One of the problems with reboots is that the producers want to make it their own and the studio rarely cares how much or little respect they have for the source material. For me, New Doctor Who has had its ups and downs, regardless of The Doctor's gender. Some original series fans have said that Romana would have been a better template for a female Doctor and that Whittaker is acting against bad material.

There's so much new and original content out there that rewriting a classic show would seem to be superfluous. Regardless, I don't think a female Doctor in and of itself is killing the franchise. 

[DanaK]

59 minutes ago, ketose said:

Regardless, I don't think a female Doctor in and of itself is killing the franchise. 

The ratings and higher interest from media and fans suggest this season reinvigorated the show. One could say that it was Capaldi's Doctor that hurt the franchise by being too unlikeable and the plots too complex. Heck, some posters were saying Capaldi's era was no longer Doctor Who in some of the episode topic discussions. There always seems to be some controversy about the franchise. It seems to be doing fine for now

[clack]

You know there will be pressure to make 14 a black man or woman. Does Gallifrey replicate the racial groups of Earth? Are there then ethnic Indian people of Gallifrey? Chinese ones? How would this make sense?

And why are most of the Gallifrey people we meet white in the 1st place? Because it's a TV show, made in the U.K., with certain budget constraints.

We as viewers are always aware just why, really, the Doctor regenerates. It's because an actor quits or is replaced.

I don't care that the Doctor is now a woman. It's all artifice anyway. Just tell a compelling story.

[DanaK]

27 minutes ago, clack said:

You know there will be pressure to make 14 a black man or woman. Does Gallifrey replicate the racial groups of Earth? Are there then ethnic Indian people of Gallifrey? Chinese ones? How would this make sense?

And why are most of the Gallifrey people we meet white in the 1st place? Because it's a TV show, made in the U.K., with certain budget constraints.

We as viewers are always aware just why, really, the Doctor regenerates. It's because an actor quits or is replaced.

I don't care that the Doctor is now a woman. It's all artifice anyway. Just tell a compelling story.

Why is the Doctor always a British-sounding person and sticking around Britain so much?  Cause it's a British show. Same reason there will be a non-white Doctor someday (probably Black male for 14). But in-show, the easy explanation is that there are Black Gallifrey people shown already and any other ethnicity that's not represented on Gallifrey could just be the result of influence by the humans the Doctor hangs around. After all, 12 thinks his face was influenced by a Roman he saved at Pompeii. I'm not sure the Doctor really knows how his/her next bodies are selected. They've been only white males up til now because of real societal reasons. As I've said before, if the show was only starting recently and the current rules set down, there likely would be men and women and a variety of ethnicities playing the part

Truthfully, now that the logjam of only white male actors as the Doctor has been broken, there will now be a variety of talented actors playing the part (British only though!) and that's never a bad thing (as long as the show continues to tell a good story)

Edited January 19, 2019 by DanaK

[Mabinogia]

1 minute ago, DanaK said:

Truthfully, now that the logjam of only white male actors (British only though!) as the Doctor has been broken, there will now be a variety of talented actors playing the part and that's never a bad thing (as long as the show continues to tell a good story)

Yep. I think Jodie is doing an amazing job so I'm glad the Doctor is a woman this time around because otherwise we wouldn't have gotten her infectious enthusiasm which I, personally, am loving. I've always preferred the upbeat Doctors who are clearly having fun over the angsty ones who mope around and grouse. Though I am one of the few who loved Capaldi as the Doctor, but that could be because if I were him and had to deal with Clara all the time I'd be a miserable old curmudgeon too, so for me, that choice made sense, just like, now that she's free, she's buoyant and excited to be travelling again. I could even accept that she's travelling with a group in case one of them starts getting on her last nerve she's got others to fall back on. haha

[DanaK]

7 minutes ago, Mabinogia said:

I think Jodie is doing an amazing job so I'm glad the Doctor is a woman this time around because otherwise we wouldn't have gotten her infectious enthusiasm which I, personally, am loving.

And in the real world, now that more attention is being paid to her, Jodie is showing she's not just a dramatic and emotional actor who's great at crying up a storm a la Broadchurch. Whether in front of the camera or in BTS stuff, she's showing what a goofball she really is

Edited January 19, 2019 by DanaK

[Mabinogia]

3 minutes ago, DanaK said:

Whether in front of the camera or in BTS stuff, she's showing what a goofball she really is

She does seem like she'd be a blast to hang out with. And I like that she's getting to play the Doctor as lighter and not as angsty. She did plenty of angst on Broadchurch. It's good to see another side of her. 

[DanaK]

In regards to the appearance of the Doctor, remember that other Time Lords seem to have better control of their regenerations (as he/she never finished his/her schooling). I think it was Romana or someone that actually tried on several forms before choosing one to regenerate into. Who knows if the Doctor’s lack of control will ever be fixed

[chitowngirl]

1 hour ago, clack said:

Just tell a compelling story.

^THIS!

[Joe]

2 hours ago, DanaK said:

In regards to the appearance of the Doctor, remember that other Time Lords seem to have better control of their regenerations (as he/she never finished his/her schooling). I think it was Romana or someone that actually tried on several forms before choosing one to regenerate into. Who knows if the Doctor’s lack of control will ever be fixed

IIRC from one of the novels, most TLs regenerate in controlled circumstances and have some say in the matter. The Doctor has never been in that situation, and takes what comes.

[Lantern7]

6 hours ago, DanaK said:

In regards to the appearance of the Doctor, remember that other Time Lords seem to have better control of their regenerations (as he/she never finished his/her schooling). I think it was Romana or someone that actually tried on several forms before choosing one to regenerate into. Who knows if the Doctor’s lack of control will ever be fixed

"Destiny of the Daleks." She wound up looking like Astra from "The Armageddon Factor" and wore a pink version of the Doctor's outfit.

3 hours ago, Joe said:

IIRC from one of the novels, most TLs regenerate in controlled circumstances and have some say in the matter. The Doctor has never been in that situation, and takes what comes.

I think the Doctor only regenerates at the brink of death (save for Two-to-Three). Some Time Lords probably do it willingly, I remember reading an article in DWM on the subject, and speculation as to why Borusa would insist on looking like "old duffers."

[Joe]

2 hours ago, Lantern7 said:

"Destiny of the Daleks." She wound up looking like Astra from "The Armageddon Factor" and wore a pink version of the Doctor's outfit.

I think the Doctor only regenerates at the brink of death (save for Two-to-Three). Some Time Lords probably do it willingly, I remember reading an article in DWM on the subject, and speculation as to why Borusa would insist on looking like "old duffers."

Yep. For the Doctor, controlled circumstances isn't an option. And IIRC it's not age that's respected in TL culture, it's the appearance of age. If you look old and crumbly, you get more respect than the one who looks like fresh young hotshot. It's a retcon, but an amusing one.

[DanaK]

Something else to add about Jodie and her Doctor, I'm loving it when she smiles, like at the end of Resolution. In-show, it's nice to see the Doctor happy and having fun (relatively speaking) after several seasons of angst and confusion

[Dobian]

On 11/18/2018 at 8:55 PM, ZoqFotPik said:

Shitty news if true. I really like Jodie. https://wegotthiscovered.com/tv/jodie-whittaker-chris-chibnall-rumored-leave-doctor-2019/?fbclid=IwAR28-y-cYFwCN0wf0r-YI3y9ypPcVf1EO-u46l9sbDcnAVJ_RRaYdhio5v8#gallery-4

Well this article has a fair share of spin-doctoring, pardon the pun.  The latest season was well-received by critics, but not by fans, with declining ratings throughout the season and horrible fan reviews compared to the glowing critics reviews.  Seems that most fans just want good well-written science fiction, not being hit over the head with social and political messages every episode.  There were a few good episodes this season, but most were just so-so and the Doctor herself, while likable,  just wasn't intriguing like past Doctors, particularly David Tennant and Matt Smith.  Maybe she would do better with better writing, but that isn't going to happen with Chibnall, who already has said in so many words they are going to continue with the current emphasis on Doctor Who being a social and political message show as opposed to a primarily science fiction show.

Edited January 28, 2019 by Dobian

[ElleryAnne]

Quote

Something else to add about Jodie and her Doctor, I'm loving it when she smiles, like at the end of Resolution.

I absolutely agree with this.  One of my issues with much of the past season has been that there's something almost defeatist about many of the episodes, and the Doctor and companions end up walking away looking tired and worn.  But Jodie lights up the screen when they give her a chance to be happy and hopeful.  I wish her debut season as Thirteen had happened under a better showrunner.

[DanaK]

18 hours ago, Dobian said:

Well this article has a fair share of spin-doctoring, pardon the pun.  The latest season was well-received by critics, but not by fans, with declining ratings throughout the season and horrible fan reviews compared to the glowing critics reviews.  Seems that most fans just want good well-written science fiction, not being hit over the head with social and political messages every episode.  There were a few good episodes this season, but most were just so-so and the Doctor herself, while likable,  just wasn't intriguing like past Doctors, particularly David Tennant and Matt Smith.  Maybe she would do better with better writing, but that isn't going to happen with Chibnall, who already has said in so many words they are going to continue with the current emphasis on Doctor Who being a social and political message show as opposed to a primarily science fiction show.

 

Continuing to cite the wide discrepancy on Rotten Tomatoes between critic and fan scores as proof that the viewers have rejected the show ignores that there are likely bigger forces at work, including hateful sites ginning up bad scores that have also hit other shows like Star Trek: Discovery, the female Ghostbusters movie and Star Wars: The Last Jedi that oh so coincidentally have female and minority leads. If it was any other show or Who season that didn’t have that particular problem, the scores would likely be a lot closer or the user scores a lot higher (which they are). The increased ratings and positive fan and critic attention indicate an obvious increased positive reception over the last 1-2 seasons even if there are things to criticize the season about

 

9 hours ago, ElleryAnne said:

I absolutely agree with this.  One of my issues with much of the past season has been that there's something almost defeatist about many of the episodes, and the Doctor and companions end up walking away looking tired and worn.  But Jodie lights up the screen when they give her a chance to be happy and hopeful.  I wish her debut season as Thirteen had happened under a better showrunner.

At the same time, I fully expect many episodes in Series 12 to be emotional and looking at some pretty ugly issues, similar to Series 11. I don’t mind a mixture of emotion and escapism with my sci-fi 

[Dobian]

20 hours ago, DanaK said:

Continuing to cite the wide discrepancy on Rotten Tomatoes between critic and fan scores as proof that the viewers have rejected the show ignores that there are likely bigger forces at work, including hateful sites ginning up bad scores that have also hit other shows like Star Trek: Discovery, the female Ghostbusters movie and Star Wars: The Last Jedi that oh so coincidentally have female and minority leads. If it was any other show or Who season that didn’t have that particular problem, the scores would likely be a lot closer or the user scores a lot higher (which they are). The increased ratings and positive fan and critic attention indicate an obvious increased positive reception over the last 1-2 seasons even if there are things to criticize the season about

That's actually a lie, I don't mean by you, but by people who stand to lose if public perception causes the show to sink in the ratings.  It's not just Rotten Tomatoes, it's Metacritic, You Tube, and other sites.  And when you read the reviews, you will see the same pattern of countless long, thoughtful, intelligent reviews written by decades-long Who fans (many of them women!) about why they hated this season, as opposed to five star ratings where the critical review is just a few words along the line of "It was great!" Not to mention all the 90-100 scores from paid critics who seem to be watching a completely different show.  The whole argument that this is a coordinated hate campaign by people who don't want a female Doctor or don't like the show's politics is a familiar tactic to discredit honest opinions.  For example, like a lot of people, I was excited about the new Doctor being a woman, but was let down by her performance (not terrible but not much to it), the bad writing, and head-bonking liberal social agenda.  So I agree with the general sentiment, which is not hate-driven and is genuine.  My manager at work, who is from GB, also was disappointed in the season, which he considered to be mediocre and it stopped being must-see for him.  Your insinuation that these criticisms are motivated by bias or discrimination against women and minorities is unfounded.  The new Ghostbusters movie was bad not because it had women in it, but because it was simply....BAD.  The latest Star Wars movie deserved a lot of criticism, and it had nothing to do with women being in it.  Rogue One, which had a female lead, was well received by audiences and I thought it was amazing.  Also, while fans have been bashing the new Star Trek, they have been loving the Orville.  Why?  Because unlike Discovery, the Orville is fun and entertaining and feels like a Star Trek show.  It also has lots of strong female characters and minorities in it (three of the main cast members are black, in addition to two or three minor characters).  People get very tired of the tactic of being labelled some sort of intolerant bigot just because they voice a criticism of a show that is poor but also happens to have a lot of female and minority cast members.  By that standard, you should never be allowed to criticize Orange is the New Black. 

Edited January 29, 2019 by Dobian

[One4Sorrow2TooBad]

Agree with you Dobian, it is, what it is.  As I've stated before, the dvd and blu ray sales along with sale of the new doctor's and companion merchandise will act as a bell weather for how the viewers approved or disapproved of season 11.

[ketose]

The problem is that there's the fact that the new Doctor is a woman and the separate fact that the writing and show running has been headed in a particular direction for many years now. I wanted very much to watch Peter Capaldi who was older and crabby and more like an "original" doctor. However, the obsession with Clara and the general poor quality of the episodes made me stop watching. I think a female doctor is a symptom, rather than a cause of dissatisfaction with the series.

I think it's entirely possible that critics like the show now and fans hate it. Critics hated the show when fans loved it, too. Plus, DW has never been a big money maker for the BBC. They're starting to shelve it like they did around Series 20 with Colin Baker. After 13 years, this new version may just have run its course.

[DanaK]

15 minutes ago, ketose said:

 

I think it's entirely possible that critics like the show now and fans hate it. Critics hated the show when fans loved it, too. Plus, DW has never been a big money maker for the BBC. They're starting to shelve it like they did around Series 20 with Colin Baker. After 13 years, this new version may just have run its course.

I’m not sure how you define that but I think DW is the BBC’s biggest show and money maker especially with it being so global. And I think taking a gap year is more for the producers wanting to make a quality show rather than the BBC wanting to shelve it, esp given so many British shows take gap years. I do think the show was headed down during the Capaldi era with the ratings falling to lows so the BBC was open to major changes to bring back viewers, thus ejecting the twisty storytelling and making it more accessible and making the Doctor more likable. I guess we’ll see how things go with Series 12

[tv-talk]

Quote

and head-bonking liberal social agenda

I dont think we'd be hearing so much about that if the Doctor wasnt a woman, past Doctors new and old addressed social issues- virtually all sci-fi does.

[DanaK]

5 hours ago, tv-talk said:

I dont think we'd be hearing so much about that if the Doctor wasnt a woman, past Doctors new and old addressed social issues- virtually all sci-fi does.

I continue to not understand this “PC agenda” rap given the show has always been socially liberal and progressive and took up social issues. And like, how is it wrong to condemn bigotry and hate and allow women and minorities equal chances to important roles in front of and behind the camera?

[tv-talk]

3 hours ago, DanaK said:

I continue to not understand this “PC agenda” rap given the show has always been socially liberal and progressive and took up social issues. And like, how is it wrong to condemn bigotry and hate and allow women and minorities equal chances to important roles in front of and behind the camera?

White men, like everyone else these days, are very sensitive. That's fine too, literally all people everywhere complain about everything in today's society, but I would like to hear specific examples from this season that are evidence of pushing an "SJW" agenda or "PC" stuff. That said I didnt even watch the Rosa Parks episode because just the thought of a new Doctor and new showrunner trying to tackle that subject from a BBC perspective seemed like a potential debacle to me and I'd imagine that one was chalk-full of "white men are evil" messaging.

[Chaos Theory]

7 minutes ago, tv-talk said:

White men, like everyone else these days, are very sensitive. That's fine too, literally all people everywhere complain about everything in today's society, but I would like to hear specific examples from this season that are evidence of pushing an "SJW" agenda or "PC" stuff. That said I didnt even watch the Rosa Parks episode because just the thought of a new Doctor and new showrunner trying to tackle that subject from a BBC perspective seemed like a potential debacle to me and I'd imagine that one was chalk-full of "white men are evil" messaging.

And yet it wasn’t.   Unless you looked.  Unless you WANTED to see that message.  I see that a lot these days.  A man yells at a woman on tv and suddenly half the audience  calls it SJW and anti male when it’s often just not.  This had absolutely nothing to do with white men at all.  zero zip zilch and that might be the most offensive thing about the episode.

Edited January 30, 2019 by Chaos Theory

[Llywela]

Yeah, I've been confused by complaints about the 'SJW agenda' all season. Doctor Who has always attempted to be progressive. Sometimes the show gets it right. Sometimes it comes across as heavy-handed and preachy. That has literally always been true, since 1963. I honestly fail to see what this season did that was any different than anything the show has ever done, to be labelled as having a specific 'head-bonking liberal social agenda'.

[DanaK]

26 minutes ago, tv-talk said:

White men, like everyone else these days, are very sensitive. That's fine too, literally all people everywhere complain about everything in today's society, but I would like to hear specific examples from this season that are evidence of pushing an "SJW" agenda or "PC" stuff. That said I didnt even watch the Rosa Parks episode because just the thought of a new Doctor and new showrunner trying to tackle that subject from a BBC perspective seemed like a potential debacle to me and I'd imagine that one was chalk-full of "white men are evil" messaging.

Let me point out as an American that the foreigners surprised me and did a great job with Rosa and made sure the character of Rosa made her own decisions instead of the Doctor doing it for her. It was great, well done episode. It was far from a debacle. The message was that the racist system was keeping Black people down and Rosa pushed back against it and helped ignite the Civil Rights movement, and the Doctor needed to keep that on track. White people and those in authority at the time were part of keeping that system going and it’s not wrong to point that out. It was accurate for the time and so was the present day racism in Britain pointed out by Ryan and Yaz, and wanting to bury your head in the sand about it helps no one, especially given the renewed rise in racism these days

[DanaK]

26 minutes ago, Llywela said:

Yeah, I've been confused by complaints about the 'SJW agenda' all season. Doctor Who has always attempted to be progressive. Sometimes the show gets it right. Sometimes it comes across as heavy-handed and preachy. That has literally always been true, since 1963. I honestly fail to see what this season did that was any different than anything the show has ever done, to be labelled as having a specific 'head-bonking liberal social agenda'.

Having a female lead and 2 minority companions seems to be one major difference. Chibnall focused more on man’s inhumanity to man instead of Moffat’s twisty tales but different showrunners focus on different things

Also to point out, progressive views change with the times so the show may be more understanding of certain views than the past, but I don’t see how that can be seen as wrong

[tv-talk]

20 minutes ago, DanaK said:

Let me point out as an American that the foreigners surprised me and did a great job with Rosa and made sure the character of Rosa made her own decisions instead of the Doctor doing it for her. It was great, well done episode. It was far from a debacle. The message was that the racist system was keeping Black people down and Rosa pushed back against it and helped ignite the Civil Rights movement, and the Doctor needed to keep that on track. White people and those in authority at the time were part of keeping that system going and it’s not wrong to point that out. It was accurate for the time and so was the present day racism in Britain pointed out by Ryan and Yaz, and wanting to bury your head in the sand about it helps no one, especially given the renewed rise in racism these days

I'm American as well, thanks for pointing that out- I will definitely watch it. Having just seen It Takes You Away something told me "Ok pass on Rosa Parks, the show isnt good enough for the material."...glad to hear I was wrong