S03.E03: Getting To The Bottom Of It

[Bellalisa]

Jazz consults another doctor about bottom surgery

I think she should definitely take the testosterone cream! She is SO naive. She has no idea what it is to have sexual feelings or an orgasm. If there is a way to make the parts bigger, she needs to do it! She just is so clueless about sex, which is cute in this day and age, but when trying to make these types of decisions, it's not cute. Her father kept saying he would like her to have a libido, but she didn't even understand what he was saying. Thinking about sex and having the urge to have sex are 2 different things. She is like a 7 year old boy as far as having a sex drive. As some have pointed out above in other threads, a child IS able to experience sexual pleasure. However, I think the urges develop in puberty. The majority of boys her age are jacking off a lot.  She has no urge to do this.  Then those other ladies told her if you had not had an orgasm before surgery you probably won't have one after. .Jazz has no idea that taking the testosterone cream might give her a chance - maybe not give her those urges but will at least give the doctor more to work with. I don't know why the parents were not urging her to do it.

[Granny58]

I saw part of this, when the doctor recommended testosterone cream.  I understand Jazz is disgusted by the idea, but women DO have an amount of testosterone naturally, can be prescribed it to increase libido, and seems like a short term of cream to develop genital growth would be a good thing.   

[okerry]

Okay, let me get this straight: Jazz & her family went to huge expense and risk to get hormone suppressants to block normal testosterone release and stop puberty, because Jazz did not want to go through puberty.

Well, that worked. Since puberty never happened, Jazz still has the primary sex characteristics of a child.

But now they want to add testosterone back in. Which is exactly what they fought and fought and fought to block. So that Jazz can have what she swore up and down she didn't want in the first place: a mature penis.

You can't just localize the effects of testosterone. If she rubs the cream on the genitals, the cream is absorbed through the skin and will affect the entire system. Secondary male sex characteristics will occur.

But that's what they didn't want. Until now. Except they really don't want it now, either. What they want is magic. 

I've never seen people in so much blind denial. Apparently Jazz and the family convinced themselves that doctors would magically be able to transform Jazz directly from a male child to a female adult. None of them thought this through or asked the right questions.

Now what?

17 minutes ago, Granny58 said:

I saw part of this, when the doctor recommended testosterone cream.  I understand Jazz is disgusted by the idea, but women DO have an amount of testosterone naturally, can be prescribed it to increase libido, and seems like a short term of cream to develop genital growth would be a good thing.   

Yes, women do have a small amount of testosterone naturally, but not enough to grow an adult male penis. Which is what Jazz finally wants, now that it's dawned on them that you cannot create adult female sexual organs out of infantile male sex organs.

Giving Jazz enough testosterone to develop the penis will also create other male secondary sex characteristics. You can't localize the effects that way, no matter how much you think you want to. This is physical science, not magic, but Jazz & the family sure seemed convinced that it's just magic. Besides, I thought having a mature male penis was horrifying to Jazz?

[Bellalisa]

No, she is horrified by the thought of growing the penis, so she is NOT going to use it. More concerning is she doesn't really understand what she will be missing sex-wise at all. 

[Adiba]

I understand why Jazz and her parents wanted to block puberty-- when your child may become suicidal, you want to throw them a lifeline. However, now that Jazz is older and perhaps more able to understand the long-term ramifications of using the blocker, maybe she will need to consider the use of the testosterone cream.

Jazz needs to continue therapy through this process, and perhaps she can tolerate the changes that come with (partial?) puberty that will allow for a more successful surgery and a better sex life in the future.

At 16, it's difficult for even the most informed and intelligent kid to fully appreciate long- term consequences of actions. At that age, predicting how you are going to feel about certain things in 10 years (Jazz would be 26) is not easy, to say the least. She may not care about being orgasmic or having a libido now, but when she is an adult and is seeking to have adult relationships, it may become very important to her.

[Scarlett45]

4 hours ago, Adiba said:

I understand why Jazz and her parents wanted to block puberty-- when your child may become suicidal, you want to throw them a lifeline. However, now that Jazz is older and perhaps more able to understand the long-term ramifications of using the blocker, maybe she will need to consider the use of the testosterone cream.

Jazz needs to continue therapy through this process, and perhaps she can tolerate the changes that come with (partial?) puberty that will allow for a more successful surgery and a better sex life in the future.

At 16, it's difficult for even the most informed and intelligent kid to fully appreciate long- term consequences of actions. At that age, predicting how you are going to feel about certain things in 10 years (Jazz would be 26) is not easy, to say the least. She may not care about being orgasmic or having a libido now, but when she is an adult and is seeking to have adult relationships, it may become very important to her.

Yeah I understand Jazz's parents too, @Adiba. Additionally there's the practical reality that transitioning earlier makes it far easier to pass in society and less "upheaval" to your career and education compared to transitioning as an adult. I'm not negating how important sex is to many (even most) people and many intimate relationships but having gentials that look and function a certain way DO NOT help you in your daily interactions with the world. Considering all of the violence transwomen experience "passing"/"not passing" can mean just living your life compared to harassment (best case) or death (worst case). 

 

I do think Jazz would benefit from the guidance and mentor ship of other trans adults who have personal experience with this  kids her own age are great as peers BUT they don't have the wisdom.

Edited July 6, 2017 by Scarlett45

[jacksgirl]

Kind of frustrated with Jazz's treatment of her grandpa. Can't he believe what HE wants to about transgender people? I think Jack and Jacky are amazing grandparents and have worked hard to understand the issues she faces. Just because someone is older doesn't mean they can't accept changes in our society and be accepting and supportive of the LGBTQ community. My teaching buds are 20 plus younger than me and I am much more liberal with regards to social issues than they. 

ETA, really liked this doctor.

Edited July 6, 2017 by jacksgirl

[ClareWalks]

I wasn't too annoyed with Jazz until she said she was concerned because Dr. McGinn had only done about 5 2-step vaginoplasties on patients like her before. At this point in the episode I was like "girl, you can't have it all in this scenario, and you know this." Jazz knows that her hormone blockers are kind of a new strategy and that she is part of a new generation of trans kids who are skipping puberty. Yet she balks when she hears that the doctor has not done this operation a billion times. You can either be at the cutting edge, new frontier of gender confirmation, or not. If this prospect makes you uneasy, you can wait longer to get the surgery, until the surgeons have all gotten far more experience. Another couple decades ought to do it. But of course, she wants the surgery right now, she wants the exact kind of surgery she wants, and she wants the surgeon to have practiced on thousands of other patients first. Sigh. Jazz. Come on.

[jacksgirl]

Yes, Clarewalks, I agree. Doctors will get better at the surgery on patients who have had hormone suppression, but it will take time. Also, does Jazz know she won't ever "see" her vagina, just like one doesn't see their liver or kidneys, those are internal.

[ClareWalks]

2 minutes ago, jacksgirl said:

Yes, Clarewalks, I agree. Doctors will get better at the surgery on patients who have had hormone suppression, but it will take time. Also, does Jazz know she won't ever "see" her vagina, just like one doesn't see their liver or kidneys, those are internal.

Exactly! I'm like "Jazz, part of being a woman is that your genitals are hidden away. They don't HAVE to be 'beautiful.' Only your gyno will ever see it, and I'm sure gynecologists don't sit around judging the appearance of women's vaginas, FFS." 

There's a question: do transgender women go to the gynecologist? Or a different sort of specialist? Obviously it's not my business, but I am curious.

[MegD]

This episode, for me, just demonstrated the disconnect between the reality of the situation and Jazz's mindset and that her mother is enabling that mindset. I understand the concept of stopping hormones when you have a suicidal child and that is a lifeline, but there's no way that this information wasn't repeatedly communicated with her parents who had to give consent for her. In all likelihood, it was even discussed again last year when her implant was changed. I would hope that Jazz was part of that discussion at least last year, if not years ago because she was too young to understand the medical information. Jazz seems stubbornly resistant to listening even to a discussion of why, perhaps, some degree of limited puberty may be necessary in order to facilitate her surgery. In a way, it's no different than the use of subcutaneous saline bags used to stretch skin prior to a major surgery. Yes, the limited time can be deeply disturbing (I've seen one placed on the back of a head to remove a really nasty scar. It was in for about 2 months during which the guy looked like he had a second head sprouting from the back of his head), but the reward of having sufficient tissue makes that tough time worth it. Conceivably, if she did choose to do this, it's something that could be omitted from the show. It is not like her voice would immediately deepen or her chest would disappear overnight. In fact, really, the first thing which would occur if she entered male puberty would be the enlargement of the very tissues she needs for her surgery. Given regular monitoring, it is possible that they could then immediately restart the hormone blocker to halt further progression. She seems to think that the doctors want her to go fully through puberty and develop all male secondary sex characteristics instead of the limited scope that the doctors want. I got the impression that this was part of why the surgeon suggested hormone cream. In all likelihood, only the area of application would receive enough hormone to begin development at the hormone blocker would probably stop anything floating in the blood stream. She's now had this mentioned by two different doctors. Clearly, they know something needs to be done to achieve the result she wants. She also seems a little clueless about the possibility of using a segment of colon. She's written that off and seems to have latched onto the idea that it will smell different forever, instead of the month or two that even her mother understood. She doesn't seem to have made the connection that many couples of all orientations have penetrative sex using a similar body part. If it were as off-putting as she acts, somehow I doubt that couples wouldn't be utilizing it. Clearly she has also written off the two stage procedure mentioned as well. I realize she wants what seems like the quick fix (relatively and compared to a 2 surgery set up) and wants it to produce "America's Next Top Vagina" because that's what she's been researching, but it's looking like that's not in the cards. I would love nothing more than to have a quick fix on my eyes and have both eye cataracts removed at the same time. It would minimize my downtime and fit into my schedule best, however, after seeing a couple of doctors, it's not in the cards for me. It's just not something they feel comfortable doing. She also seems oblivious to the fact that not everyone is letting others get up close and personal with their vaginas every day. It's conceivable that no one would be looking at her vagina during the recovery from the first step, even Jazz.

 

The other part of this episode that bothered me was how she behaved with her grandfather. I would never, ever, speak to my parents or grandparents the way she did, especially in public. She was hell bent on controlling exactly what he said and was down right rude, speaking over him before he had finished a thought. She didn't want to even pause to hear what he was saying as he was trying to explain things to an audience made up of individuals his age. He's had many years to accept Jazz for who she is. Others in the audience, who may not have been around a transgender person before, needed the explanations he was trying to give on how he got to accept Jazz for who she is. Contrary to her belief, not everyone immediately accepts everyone. This is very similar to how she acted with Mya's brother, assuming that he was misnaming her on purpose, instead of understanding that he was struggling with the loss of his brother and the acceptance of his sister. Her mother didn't make any attempt to rein in Jazz's behavior. My mother would have yanked a knot in my tail. She needs to learn that she ISN'T always the dominant voice in conversations related to transgender individuals. Clearly, to Jazz, only her opinion on things can be the only one that is correct or allowed to be heard. This show and her mother's enabling are not doing her any favors.

 

I thought it was telling that her mother said that the storming out and yelling about how she hated herself was how Jazz behaved if she was embarrassed by her own behavior. But her mother still ran after her to comfort her and give her attention. To me, having dealt with over-indulged children, it's a frequent behavior pattern by the child and the indulger. She gets her ego stroked that what she may have done wasn't so bad and gets to avoid any reflection on her behavior. Instead, her mother should have gone in there, asked what happened and had a discussion about what happened and how Jazz could have handled her discomfort in a more grown up manner. This is happening often enough that her mother can tell that it's a sign that Jazz didn't behave as she should have. Given that she's struggling with her peers, it is probably affecting the way she interacts with them and is limiting her social group. Addressing it may help her find a larger social group.

 

From the previews, it appears that Jazz also wants to ignore the doctor's suggestion (and what will probably be a requirement for any surgeon she finds) to seek some counseling. She's got a history of depression (including suicidal thoughts) and she's a teenager with a lot of issues. Given that her mom lets her avoid or skip anything that makes her uncomfortable, all of a sudden Jeanette putting her foot down and making her see two separate counselors is going to go over like a lead balloon. From experience, I can verify that sometimes the best thing you can do is talk to someone who doesn't know your backstory. They bring a fresh perspective. I'm also sure that they can find her counselors who have dealt with transgender issues before, if I can locate them here in Alabama.

[ClareWalks]

5 minutes ago, MegD said:

I thought it was telling that her mother said that the storming out and yelling about how she hated herself was how Jazz behaved if she was embarrassed by her own behavior. But her mother still ran after her to comfort her and give her attention. To me, having dealt with over-indulged children, it's a frequent behavior pattern by the child and the indulger. She gets her ego stroked that what she may have done wasn't so bad and gets to avoid any reflection on her behavior. Instead, her mother should have gone in there, asked what happened and had a discussion about what happened and how Jazz could have handled her discomfort in a more grown up manner. This is happening often enough that her mother can tell that it's a sign that Jazz didn't behave as she should have. Given that she's struggling with her peers, it is probably affecting the way she interacts with them and is limiting her social group. Addressing it may help her find a larger social group.

I also found it kind of weird that Jeanette didn't say something about "do you think if you apologized to Shane, you would feel better about being rude to him?" I mean, come on. Apologizing didn't even seem to be on Jazz's radar. Even if she found it awkward to bring it up, it might ultimately make her (and more importantly, Shane) feel better if she just owned up to it and said she was sorry and she realizes how rude she was. People will forgive things like that if you explain and say you're sorry. We might be seeing a bit more of why Jazz's friends kind of ditched her - if she was pulling that crap with them and not trying to make things right, they might just think Jazz hates them or something.

[Scarlett45]

49 minutes ago, jacksgirl said:

Yes, Clarewalks, I agree. Doctors will get better at the surgery on patients who have had hormone suppression, but it will take time. Also, does Jazz know she won't ever "see" her vagina, just like one doesn't see their liver or kidneys, those are internal.

I think a lot of times when lay people (non medical personnel) say "vagina" they mean "vulva". 

[Bastet]

19 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

I think a lot of times when lay people (non medical personnel) say "vagina" they mean "vulva". 

Boy howdy.  In fact, most of the time when I see/hear "vagina," the speaker/poster is actually talking about the vulva. 

Edited July 6, 2017 by Bastet

[Pfj99]

1 hour ago, MegD said:

This episode, for me, just demonstrated the disconnect between the reality of the situation and Jazz's mindset and that her mother is enabling that mindset. I understand the concept of stopping hormones when you have a suicidal child and that is a lifeline, but there's no way that this information wasn't repeatedly communicated with her parents who had to give consent for her. In all likelihood, it was even discussed again last year when her implant was changed. I would hope that Jazz was part of that discussion at least last year, if not years ago because she was too young to understand the medical information. Jazz seems stubbornly resistant to listening even to a discussion of why, perhaps, some degree of limited puberty may be necessary in order to facilitate her surgery. In a way, it's no different than the use of subcutaneous saline bags used to stretch skin prior to a major surgery. Yes, the limited time can be deeply disturbing (I've seen one placed on the back of a head to remove a really nasty scar. It was in for about 2 months during which the guy looked like he had a second head sprouting from the back of his head), but the reward of having sufficient tissue makes that tough time worth it. Conceivably, if she did choose to do this, it's something that could be omitted from the show. It is not like her voice would immediately deepen or her chest would disappear overnight. In fact, really, the first thing which would occur if she entered male puberty would be the enlargement of the very tissues she needs for her surgery. Given regular monitoring, it is possible that they could then immediately restart the hormone blocker to halt further progression. She seems to think that the doctors want her to go fully through puberty and develop all male secondary sex characteristics instead of the limited scope that the doctors want. I got the impression that this was part of why the surgeon suggested hormone cream. In all likelihood, only the area of application would receive enough hormone to begin development at the hormone blocker would probably stop anything floating in the blood stream. She's now had this mentioned by two different doctors. Clearly, they know something needs to be done to achieve the result she wants. She also seems a little clueless about the possibility of using a segment of colon. She's written that off and seems to have latched onto the idea that it will smell different forever, instead of the month or two that even her mother understood. She doesn't seem to have made the connection that many couples of all orientations have penetrative sex using a similar body part. If it were as off-putting as she acts, somehow I doubt that couples wouldn't be utilizing it. Clearly she has also written off the two stage procedure mentioned as well. I realize she wants what seems like the quick fix (relatively and compared to a 2 surgery set up) and wants it to produce "America's Next Top Vagina" because that's what she's been researching, but it's looking like that's not in the cards. I would love nothing more than to have a quick fix on my eyes and have both eye cataracts removed at the same time. It would minimize my downtime and fit into my schedule best, however, after seeing a couple of doctors, it's not in the cards for me. It's just not something they feel comfortable doing. She also seems oblivious to the fact that not everyone is letting others get up close and personal with their vaginas every day. It's conceivable that no one would be looking at her vagina during the recovery from the first step, even Jazz.

 

The other part of this episode that bothered me was how she behaved with her grandfather. I would never, ever, speak to my parents or grandparents the way she did, especially in public. She was hell bent on controlling exactly what he said and was down right rude, speaking over him before he had finished a thought. She didn't want to even pause to hear what he was saying as he was trying to explain things to an audience made up of individuals his age. He's had many years to accept Jazz for who she is. Others in the audience, who may not have been around a transgender person before, needed the explanations he was trying to give on how he got to accept Jazz for who she is. Contrary to her belief, not everyone immediately accepts everyone. This is very similar to how she acted with Mya's brother, assuming that he was misnaming her on purpose, instead of understanding that he was struggling with the loss of his brother and the acceptance of his sister. Her mother didn't make any attempt to rein in Jazz's behavior. My mother would have yanked a knot in my tail. She needs to learn that she ISN'T always the dominant voice in conversations related to transgender individuals. Clearly, to Jazz, only her opinion on things can be the only one that is correct or allowed to be heard. This show and her mother's enabling are not doing her any favors.

 

I thought it was telling that her mother said that the storming out and yelling about how she hated herself was how Jazz behaved if she was embarrassed by her own behavior. But her mother still ran after her to comfort her and give her attention. To me, having dealt with over-indulged children, it's a frequent behavior pattern by the child and the indulger. She gets her ego stroked that what she may have done wasn't so bad and gets to avoid any reflection on her behavior. Instead, her mother should have gone in there, asked what happened and had a discussion about what happened and how Jazz could have handled her discomfort in a more grown up manner. This is happening often enough that her mother can tell that it's a sign that Jazz didn't behave as she should have. Given that she's struggling with her peers, it is probably affecting the way she interacts with them and is limiting her social group. Addressing it may help her find a larger social group.

 

From the previews, it appears that Jazz also wants to ignore the doctor's suggestion (and what will probably be a requirement for any surgeon she finds) to seek some counseling. She's got a history of depression (including suicidal thoughts) and she's a teenager with a lot of issues. Given that her mom lets her avoid or skip anything that makes her uncomfortable, all of a sudden Jeanette putting her foot down and making her see two separate counselors is going to go over like a lead balloon. From experience, I can verify that sometimes the best thing you can do is talk to someone who doesn't know your backstory. They bring a fresh perspective. I'm also sure that they can find her counselors who have dealt with transgender issues before, if I can locate them here in Alabama.

[retired watcher]

This is more and more becoming the Jeanette Show. I think Jazz needs to take a break for a while.

[doodlebug]

5 hours ago, ClareWalks said:

Exactly! I'm like "Jazz, part of being a woman is that your genitals are hidden away. They don't HAVE to be 'beautiful.' Only your gyno will ever see it, and I'm sure gynecologists don't sit around judging the appearance of women's vaginas, FFS." 

There's a question: do transgender women go to the gynecologist? Or a different sort of specialist? Obviously it's not my business, but I am curious.

Transgender women do go to the gynecologist, and, at least in larger metropolitan areas, there are gynecologists who have specialized training in caring for them.

I am a GYN with more than 30 years in private practice.  I work for a large hospital system that includes a couple of GYN surgeons who specialize in this surgery. I recently attended a lecture given by one who showed before and after photos of multiple patients. After everything has healed, these women really do look very natural externally and I suspect that at least a few of them could see  a Gyn, tell him/her she'd had a hysterectomy  and no one would be the wiser. The artistry of these surgeons is amazing.

[ClareWalks]

3 minutes ago, doodlebug said:

Transgender women do go to the gynecologist, and, at least in larger metropolitan areas, there are gynecologists who have specialized training in caring for them.

I am a GYN with more than 30 years in private practice.  I work for a large hospital system that includes a couple of GYN surgeons who specialize in this surgery. I recently attended a lecture given by one who showed before and after photos of multiple patients. After everything has healed, these women really do look very natural externally and I suspect that at least a few of them could see  a Gyn, tell him/her she'd had a hysterectomy  and no one would be the wiser. The artistry of these surgeons is amazing.

Very good info, thanks so much! Is there much of a visual difference between women who have a penile-inversion vaginoplasty vs a colon vaginoplasty? 

[doodlebug]

8 minutes ago, ClareWalks said:

Very good info, thanks so much! Is there much of a visual difference between women who have a penile-inversion vaginoplasty vs a colon vaginoplasty? 

I've never seen the result of a colon vaginoplasty, so I don't know, however, the external genitalia (vulva) is not constructed from the colon (or penis), so I don't think the externals would look different.  I have not (to my knowledge) seen a transgender vaginoplasty in person, but, based on photos and the word of the surgeons who see them every day; the view of the neovagina via speculum is remarkably similar to a natural vagina, except for the absence of the cervix.

in Jazz' case, she is not going to have enough scrotal tissue to create a vulva; so the external result may not be as good in her case, either.

I've resisted commenting on this show because I am personally very concerned about this young woman's mental health and I am not sure doing this show is in her best interest.  I worry for her future health and happiness.

[Scarlett45]

23 minutes ago, doodlebug said:

I've never seen the result of a colon vaginoplasty, so I don't know, however, the external genitalia (vulva) is not constructed from the colon (or penis), so I don't think the externals would look different.  I have not (to my knowledge) seen a transgender vaginoplasty in person, but, based on photos and the word of the surgeons who see them every day; the view of the neovagina via speculum is remarkably similar to a natural vagina, except for the absence of the cervix.

in Jazz' case, she is not going to have enough scrotal tissue to create a vulva; so the external result may not be as good in her case, either.

I've resisted commenting on this show because I am personally very concerned about this young woman's mental health and I am not sure doing this show is in her best interest.  I worry for her future health and happiness.

Hi @doodlebug! (I read a lot of your posts on 19kids & counting). 

Thank you for the medical input. 

[jacksgirl]

@doodlebug, thank you for your insight. Although unlike you I'm not a medical professional, I agree about your thoughts re Jazz and her mental health. I get that she is just now 16, and teens are prone to mood swings and angst, but Jazz seems so unhappy.  She is too young and immature  to have this surgery IMO. Also agree that doing this show is not in her best interest.  Yes, I enjoy her and her journey inspires me, but it's not good for Jazz.

Edited July 7, 2017 by jacksgirl

[CarolMK]

I'm wondering, after Jazz eventually gets this procedure done, if she is going to be happy with it. Even though she has talked to a few other young women now, does she actually know anyone who has had a vaginoplasty done? Has she seen photos of what it looks like afterwards? As I mentioned earlier, I'm a breast cancer survivor and I belong to an online Facebook group- there are many women who were not happy with the results of having mastectomies and reconstruction done. It has taken an immense toll on their self esteem and most of these women are from mid thirties through sixties. I was very lucky to have qualified for a lumpectomy, but I do have a permanent 4 inch scar on my breast. I'm fine with it, happy cancer is gone now and only having to deal with what might be permanent numbness in the armpit area. With Jazz, not only does she have the testosterone blocker, she also is taking estrogen. Her hormones might be contributing to her depression. And after all of this, what if she decides she doesn't like the way her breasts look and decides she needs breast surgery as well? I think I did hear her mention this possibility awhile ago. And I'm wondering if she too would have ongoing numbness from her surgery. There doesn't seem to be any easy answers to this.

By the way, I didn't realize that Dr. Christine was also trans. She had her surgery back in 2000. Unlike many trans women I have seen interviewed, she is one of the few who I can honestly say I would have never guessed that she had been born a male. 

[ilovetrashtv]

6 minutes ago, CarolMK said:

By the way, I didn't realize that Dr. Christine was also trans. She had her surgery back in 2000. Unlike many trans women I have seen interviewed, she is one of the few who I can honestly say I would have never guessed that she had been born a male. 

Agreed. Not surprising considering her line of work. She's had a ton of work done on her face. (per my non-professional opinion)

Edited July 7, 2017 by ilovetrashtv

[woodscommaelle]

I ADORE Jazz.  I think she is just the best. However, she's going through some really heavy shit and I wish it wasn't on tv for all to see.

I didn't love the new doctor. Something about her rubbed me the wrong way, but not as much as the male doctor from last week.

Jeanette made me lol several times this episode; something that has never really happened. 

Edited July 8, 2017 by woodscommaelle

[Quilty]

13 hours ago, woodscommaelle said:

I ADORE Jazz.  I think she is just awesome.  I don't think she should be going through all of this shit on tv though.  Way too much for such a young person.  Yes, she's young and perhaps a little immature, but as her grandfather said, she's also very precocious.  She's got an old soul (in my opinion).

I didn't love the new doctor. Something about her rubbed me the wrong way, but not as much as the male doctor from last week.

Jeanette made me lol several times this episode; something that has never really happened. 

This whole show seems like some mad scientist experiment gone horribly wrong.

[woodscommaelle]

24 minutes ago, Quilty said:

This whole show seems like some mad scientist experiment gone horribly wrong.

Omg yes! 

[Impatient]

Oh one more thing.  What is wrong wth Jazz's grandmother, Jackie? Her eyes look crossed, she is wearing a ridiculously huge wig and looks emaciated.  Is she well?  

[Christina87]

I agree with so many of you who are frustrated with Jazz's treatment of her grandfather. Just the way she said, "my grandfather always messes up!" made me cringe. It was just so disrespectful! If she'd been saying it about an annoying little brother, fine. You don't go around scoffing that your grandparent messed up because it's a demeaning thing to say to your elder. I can see Jazz and Jeannette saying that about him in private, behind closed doors, but not to his face. 

Also, so what if her grandfather understands why people would feel that way about the bathroom? Some people will be more likely to listen to you if you say, "I can understand why you feel that way, but here's what I've learned." The way she jumped all over him was disgusting, as well as Jeannette making fun of his age. Again...okay behind closed doors, but it's so mean for him to hear it. Plus, he was doing them a favor!

[Ravello]

Jazz is indeed spoiled and feels entitled to whatever.  She demands everyone tow the party line 100% and is intolerant of other view points. She has the most loving and supportive grandparents but threw a fit when the grandfather stated he understood the concerns about bathrooms.  Her mother should have supported Grandpa. 

 I wonder how the other three kids feel.  Families with a special needs child can be so involved with the one.  

[orangeiguana]

22 minutes ago, Ravello said:

I wonder how the other three kids feel.  Families with a special needs child can be so involved with the one.  

I think they made their feelings known by fleeing the cameras?

1 hour ago, Impatient said:

Finally, the way she treated Shane was absolutely shameful.  Do not kid yourself.  She thought he was beneath her.  He/she was too out there.

I thought Shane was attractive, polite, respectful, and an all-around good kid with creative fashion sense that this 57-y-o lady admired. I'd like to introduce Shane to some of my young friends! But if Jazz doesn't like him as a romantic partner, fine, but Shane was being really considerate and I'm sure "got" that there wasn't romantic interest. No reason at all to diss Shane! I really liked the kid. 

[orangeiguana]

1 hour ago, Impatient said:

What is wrong wth Jazz's grandmother, Jackie? Her eyes look crossed, she is wearing a ridiculously huge wig and looks emaciated.  Is she well?  

IDK but she seems healthy overall. Maybe she had a stroke or neurological event in the past, plus some women just have hair loss/alopecia. For a lady her age (I'm guessing early 70s) she seems appropriately sharp. I'm from the south, and a lot of ladies stick with the "big hair" mode of younger years, plus many Jewish ladies in FL adopt a similar style. Whatever is going on, and it could be neurological, genetic, something else, the hair detracts from any other oddness. It might be the best choice and I'm sure the hair/makeup Dept has explored this -- no one is on their own fashion-wise on a TLC show. She certainly seems a compassionate, loving person.

[Caracoa1]

I truly wish a happy, healthy and safe life for Jazz but she does appear to be very Spoiled.  Her siblings appear to be very supportive of Jazz but I wonder if behind closed doors if they are hurt and fed up that their childhoods we're all about Jazz.  Ari, Sander and Griffen have a right to be happy and their triumphs and problems are important too.  I hope that is acknowledged in their family even if we don't get to see it.

[Impatient]

Don't misunderstand me:  i LIKED Shane a lot and talk bout embarrassing:  to be set up on a blind date on national (international?) television and to be so obviously rejected.  OK, so there was no chemistry but how hard would it be for even a terribly shy peson to be nice?  To ask Shane a few questions instead of acting wounded?  How self-centered!  I am telling you though, there is some weird psychology going on hee, that Jazz has such narrowly defined ides of attractiveness.  She says she has no problem with dating a  trans boy but she sees herself as an impossibly perfect trans girl who could never be detected as anything but a cis femle and therefore requires a male who will support that.  Having a trans boyfriend who looks trans....  does not fit with the elaborate program at work here..  A shame really because Shane seemed like a genuinely nice caring person.  

As to the surgery Jazz is going to have done, she seems to have no understanding as to what is going to be done via this surgery.  For example when discussing dilation, she always says it is to create "depth".  But that is not the case at all.  Creating a fake vagina creates an unendingly open wound.  That has to be kept open or it will close up and heal over.  So Dilation is something she will have to do for the rest of her life.  Furthermore, there are odd bacterial infections that arise in these neovaginas (for lack of a better term) that must be prevented by frequent douching and hypercleanliness.  There are, incredibly enough, MANY Youtube videos that show a transgender woman's vagina and labia up close.  And the dilation process is presented and none of it should be a surprise.  So it strikes me as strange that Jazz is not more fully informed, or if she is, is faking ignorance on the show. 

Finally, her grandparents are terrific and she owes her grandfather a big giant apology.

 

[okerry]

2 hours ago, Impatient said:

 i am hoping the next one we saw a preview of is better  this all makes me wonder f jazz has secretly decided not to have the surgery and is not going through the paace for the sake of the TV show.

I've had the same thought and I really, really hope that's the case.

[Caracoa1]

I feel that for Jazz passing as a female (by not going thru male puberty) is more important to her at this point.  I think she is happy that she did not have to deal with all these after passing thru puberty.  Her friend Noelle seems very sweet but you can tell she has a deep voice and that does throw off her passing the way Jazz can.  

[surveyandprotect1]

New to the site, wanted to cover a few things that you all might find interesting

I live very near to where this series is filmed. I started watching season 1 and really like the show. I grew up with a good friend in the 90's who ended up being FTM so I understand and support the topic. I'm glad that there is a highly rated national show on TV about the topic. The ratings have been fairly strong with season 3. The one-hour format works better than the 30 minute format and TLC is promoting the series and giving it prime or just off-prime placement.

 

I respect the privacy of the family to give away too much info online and don't want to ruin the show, but I know exactly where the show is being filmed down to the house, the park scenes, the restaurants, the school, the library ect... so it gives me a little bit of inside info on timing of events. I do not know the family, the production team, the friends or the grandparents featured on the show so I have no inside knowledge on that front (I'd like to meet them!). I can however say I drive past the house every day on my way to work and many of the locations featured on this season in particular. I can also add that I'm very familiar with how reality TV production works, knowing someone who was featured on a major reality show.

 

I wish people would understand that this a reality TV show. I've read all the comments and people to seem to think they are watching a documentary.

 

Reality TV shows have what is called "segment producers". "This is a Just a Test" the production company, is looking to write a story arc out of actual events to fill 43-44 minutes of running time AND have that arc connect AND actually make logical sense for the viewer. The "couch interviews" are generally done after primary filming has wrapped, sometimes weeks to months after. On-site production can film in excess of 100 running hours to edit down a story that fills one episode.

 

All these comments about how Jeanette is stealing the spotlight or pushing Jazz too hard in this season are failing to realize that a segment producer and field producer or in the case of the "couch interview" an executive producer is pushing the "talent" to create the story arc. These producers have learned from season 1 and 2 that by putting Jeanette on screen more often they can increase ratings which in turn increase advertising revenue which in turn increases the amount they can sell the series to TLC for.

 

Viewers identify with Jeanette, Jack and Jacky. One look at the ratings demo will tell you who is actually watching the show. Notice any correlation to these 3 receiving more screen time on season 3?

 

Season 3 started filming on August 22nd 2016. The first episode has a giveaway hint to someone who lives local , but that's all I'm going to say.....again not looking to give away too much.

 

What we are currently viewing is about 8-9 months behind real time.

 

Did anyone stop to think that the reassignment surgery that is currently being discussed on the show was already completed? I'm going to bet that it was completed around the end of 2016 or early 2017 and we'll catch up to the point as they continue to air the series.

[Impatient]

I thought aboout that, that the surgery had already been completed.....  but there is no press to that effect  None of her high school friends leking it or any of the rest.  So I son'r know.  Also, the dad seemed a bit squeamish about lettong her go forward with it before she turned 18, so.....

 

so you are saying they are trying to appel to the largely female middle aged and older jewish sector of the market?

[jacksgirl]

@surveyandprotect, really appreciate your insight,  but I do hope you are wrong about Jazz possibly  already having the surgery. She is too immature psychologically IMO.

 

ETA, Why do I like a reality family in the beginning and then start to dislike them as the seasons go on? I liked the Roloff's, now I don't, I liked Jon and Kate until her ugly personality came through, and now Jazz? Is it me? Oh, hated the Duggars from Day 1.

Edited July 9, 2017 by jacksgirl

[mittsigirl]

On 06/07/2017 at 0:57 PM, MegD said:

This episode, for me, just demonstrated the disconnect between the reality of the situation and Jazz's mindset and that her mother is enabling that mindset. I understand the concept of stopping hormones when you have a suicidal child and that is a lifeline, but there's no way that this information wasn't repeatedly communicated with her parents who had to give consent for her. In all likelihood, it was even discussed again last year when her implant was changed. I would hope that Jazz was part of that discussion at least last year, if not years ago because she was too young to understand the medical information. Jazz seems stubbornly resistant to listening even to a discussion of why, perhaps, some degree of limited puberty may be necessary in order to facilitate her surgery. In a way, it's no different than the use of subcutaneous saline bags used to stretch skin prior to a major surgery. Yes, the limited time can be deeply disturbing (I've seen one placed on the back of a head to remove a really nasty scar. It was in for about 2 months during which the guy looked like he had a second head sprouting from the back of his head), but the reward of having sufficient tissue makes that tough time worth it. Conceivably, if she did choose to do this, it's something that could be omitted from the show. It is not like her voice would immediately deepen or her chest would disappear overnight. In fact, really, the first thing which would occur if she entered male puberty would be the enlargement of the very tissues she needs for her surgery. Given regular monitoring, it is possible that they could then immediately restart the hormone blocker to halt further progression. She seems to think that the doctors want her to go fully through puberty and develop all male secondary sex characteristics instead of the limited scope that the doctors want. I got the impression that this was part of why the surgeon suggested hormone cream. In all likelihood, only the area of application would receive enough hormone to begin development at the hormone blocker would probably stop anything floating in the blood stream. She's now had this mentioned by two different doctors. Clearly, they know something needs to be done to achieve the result she wants. She also seems a little clueless about the possibility of using a segment of colon. She's written that off and seems to have latched onto the idea that it will smell different forever, instead of the month or two that even her mother understood. She doesn't seem to have made the connection that many couples of all orientations have penetrative sex using a similar body part. If it were as off-putting as she acts, somehow I doubt that couples wouldn't be utilizing it. Clearly she has also written off the two stage procedure mentioned as well. I realize she wants what seems like the quick fix (relatively and compared to a 2 surgery set up) and wants it to produce "America's Next Top Vagina" because that's what she's been researching, but it's looking like that's not in the cards. I would love nothing more than to have a quick fix on my eyes and have both eye cataracts removed at the same time. It would minimize my downtime and fit into my schedule best, however, after seeing a couple of doctors, it's not in the cards for me. It's just not something they feel comfortable doing. She also seems oblivious to the fact that not everyone is letting others get up close and personal with their vaginas every day. It's conceivable that no one would be looking at her vagina during the recovery from the first step, even Jazz.

 

The other part of this episode that bothered me was how she behaved with her grandfather. I would never, ever, speak to my parents or grandparents the way she did, especially in public. She was hell bent on controlling exactly what he said and was down right rude, speaking over him before he had finished a thought. She didn't want to even pause to hear what he was saying as he was trying to explain things to an audience made up of individuals his age. He's had many years to accept Jazz for who she is. Others in the audience, who may not have been around a transgender person before, needed the explanations he was trying to give on how he got to accept Jazz for who she is. Contrary to her belief, not everyone immediately accepts everyone. This is very similar to how she acted with Mya's brother, assuming that he was misnaming her on purpose, instead of understanding that he was struggling with the loss of his brother and the acceptance of his sister. Her mother didn't make any attempt to rein in Jazz's behavior. My mother would have yanked a knot in my tail. She needs to learn that she ISN'T always the dominant voice in conversations related to transgender individuals. Clearly, to Jazz, only her opinion on things can be the only one that is correct or allowed to be heard. This show and her mother's enabling are not doing her any favors.

 

I thought it was telling that her mother said that the storming out and yelling about how she hated herself was how Jazz behaved if she was embarrassed by her own behavior. But her mother still ran after her to comfort her and give her attention. To me, having dealt with over-indulged children, it's a frequent behavior pattern by the child and the indulger. She gets her ego stroked that what she may have done wasn't so bad and gets to avoid any reflection on her behavior. Instead, her mother should have gone in there, asked what happened and had a discussion about what happened and how Jazz could have handled her discomfort in a more grown up manner. This is happening often enough that her mother can tell that it's a sign that Jazz didn't behave as she should have. Given that she's struggling with her peers, it is probably affecting the way she interacts with them and is limiting her social group. Addressing it may help her find a larger social group.

 

From the previews, it appears that Jazz also wants to ignore the doctor's suggestion (and what will probably be a requirement for any surgeon she finds) to seek some counseling. She's got a history of depression (including suicidal thoughts) and she's a teenager with a lot of issues. Given that her mom lets her avoid or skip anything that makes her uncomfortable, all of a sudden Jeanette putting her foot down and making her see two separate counselors is going to go over like a lead balloon. From experience, I can verify that sometimes the best thing you can do is talk to someone who doesn't know your backstory. They bring a fresh perspective. I'm also sure that they can find her counselors who have dealt with transgender issues before, if I can locate them here in Alabama.

Yes-to your whole post!

[ilovetrashtv]

9 hours ago, surveyandprotect1 said:

 

I respect the privacy of the family to give away too much info online and don't want to ruin the show, but I know exactly where the show is being filmed down to the house, the park scenes, the restaurants, the school, the library ect... so it gives me a little bit of inside info on timing of events. I do not know the family, the production team, the friends or the grandparents featured on the show so I have no inside knowledge on that front (I'd like to meet them!). I can however say I drive past the house every day on my way to work and many of the locations featured on this season in particular. I can also add that I'm very familiar with how reality TV production works, knowing someone who was featured on a major reality show.

 

I'm honestly shocked they aren't using a fake house to film the exterior scenes of the house, like the Kardashians do on their shows. It just seems unsafe. ETA: Maybe I'm wrong and the house shown isn't their real house. Hope so!

Edited July 9, 2017 by ilovetrashtv

[Honey]

I hadn't watched this show in a while, and I was surprised that Jazz doesn't look very "girly" anymore.  When she was younger, I saw nothing but a girl, now she's appearing more "mannish", so I was wondering if she stopped the hormone treatments.  

[ClareWalks]

32 minutes ago, Honey said:

I hadn't watched this show in a while, and I was surprised that Jazz doesn't look very "girly" anymore.  When she was younger, I saw nothing but a girl, now she's appearing more "mannish", so I was wondering if she stopped the hormone treatments.  

I think she looks exactly the same as before, but with way bigger boobs. But they reported her hormone levels in a previous episode and she is basically hormonally an adult woman.

[surveyandprotect1]

7 hours ago, ilovetrashtv said:

I'm honestly shocked they aren't using a fake house to film the exterior scenes of the house, like the Kardashians do on their shows. It just seems unsafe. ETA: Maybe I'm wrong and the house shown isn't their real house. Hope so!

I can confirm that exterior shots of the house are of the actual house. They did not film a random house and insert it into the series. The rest of the scenes are also real - the ice cream parlor - the school - the pool hall - the italian restaurant - the cheese/wine store - the park shown with Skylar and Jazz on the swings - its all real. There is no trickery being used with the on-location scenes like you may see on some other shows.

Edited July 9, 2017 by surveyandprotect1

[radishcake]

Guys a few things:

• don't quote huge long posts to tell someone "yes! I agree!" A note @ ing the person is a better route.
• don't get into religious stereotyping 
• don't forget to check out the GLADD language guide in the main forum.  
• don't call out other posters

[ilovetrashtv]

1 hour ago, surveyandprotect1 said:

I can confirm that exterior shots of the house are of the actual house. They did not film a random house and insert it into the series. The rest of the scenes are also real - the ice cream parlor - the school - the pool hall - the italian restaurant - the cheese/wine store - the park shown with Skylar and Jazz on the swings - its all real. There is no trickery being used with the on-location scenes like you may see on some other shows.

Wow! That's so crazy to me. 

[surveyandprotect1]

17 hours ago, Impatient said:

I thought aboout that, that the surgery had already been completed.....  but there is no press to that effect  None of her high school friends leking it or any of the rest.  So I son'r know.  Also, the dad seemed a bit squeamish about lettong her go forward with it before she turned 18, so.....

Forgot to mention in first post that its very common in the reality TV business for everyone who appears on the show or has any connection to the show to sign an NDA - non disclosure agreement. This agreement would bar anyone on the show with inside knowledge of events from posting anything on social media or talking about any un-aired events to the press.

Edited July 9, 2017 by surveyandprotect1

[Granny58]

On 7/7/2017 at 2:09 AM, CarolMK said:

By the way, I didn't realize that Dr. Christine was also trans. She had her surgery back in 2000. Unlike many trans women I have seen interviewed, she is one of the few who I can honestly say I would have never guessed that she had been born a male. 

I'm actually not surprised to learn this.  I wondered immediately.  

[Scarlett45]

1 hour ago, Granny58 said:

I'm actually not surprised to learn this.  I wondered immediately.  

I knew Dr Christine was trans, she is very beautiful, the facial feminization work she has had done is a work of great skill....her voice has a deeper register than most XX women I think. 

[Impatient]

I wasn't surprised in the least!  She is famous in the community for one thing.  but more to the point, she is built like a green bay packer lineman.  Her forearms are HUGE.  She has a feminine face with tiny features but all the rest of her is HUGE.  Wtch it agin.  There is no mistaking it.  

[stacyasp]

On 7/8/2017 at 1:12 PM, Impatient said:

Oh one more thing.  What is wrong wth Jazz's grandmother, Jackie? Her eyes look crossed, she is wearing a ridiculously huge wig and looks emaciated.  Is she well?  

Too much plastic surgery