S07.E01: Dragonstone

[Tikichick]

8 hours ago, screamin said:

When did Jon ever remember Sansa ill-treating him?

As for who put Sansa in the position of thinking Cersei and Joffrey were good people after they murdered Lady? Well, perhaps some of the blame might be laid at the feet of the man who decided to continue Sansa's betrothal to Joffrey after they murdered Lady - thus putting 13 year old Sansa in the position of choosing either to believe that Joffrey was potentially good despite his actions, or that Joffrey was evil but her beloved father was going to make her marry him anyway. Doesn't Ned's silent acquiescence in continuing the betrothal contribute greatly to Sansa's impression that Micah and Lady's deaths were NBD? Silence gives consent, after all.

I think it's only fair to give this a bit more context.  Ned didn't want to leave Winterfell to become hand, not even a tiny bit.  He expressed that to Robert, his friend and the KING.  Robert felt otherwise and expressed that in no uncertain terms.  Ned's choice in fact wasn't a choice at all.

Sansa was starry eyed at the prospect of the royal family visiting their backwater home, excitement at last.  Catelyn understood and on some level shared Sansa's distaste for Winterfell, encouraged Sansa to want an advantageous marriage in a locale that came with the prospect of more social advantages befitting a lady.  Robert partially capitalized on this with dangling his very eligible heir to the throne, garnering some support from Catelyn and Sansa.  Was there truly any option to balk at the betrothal?  

Don't forget Ned's growing concern at the changes in his friend, including plenty of irrational actions and lots of drinking.  Hit the pause button and consider Ned knows well Robert still has a major burr under the saddle about losing Lyanna.  Then consider whatever Lyanna whispered to Ned in the tower.  Could she possibly have said anything to Ned that contradicts Robert's stance on what took place?  If it did Ned could never breathe a word, or risk breaking his vow to Lyanna. 

Now consider that prior to the Barratheon's visit to Winterfell Ned likely knew nothing of what kind of boy Prince Joffrey was, nor would he necessarily know much about Cersei's personality -- which to be fair darkened as they years of marriage to Robert went on.  Once the visit to Winterfell is undertaken things are in motion so quickly that there really was little to no chance of Ned avoiding becoming the hand, Sansa's betrothal or going to KL without incurring the wrath of the petulant, bully, despot of his "friend" the king.   How much of a choice was that truly?

[Constantinople]

Sansa has been frequently criticized in this episode for not providing Jon with more specific intelligence about what Cersei could or might do (as if in the real world people have step by step instructions on what their enemies will do).

But Jon has yet to posit a theory on how the Walkers will get beyond the Wall.  He only sent Tormund to Eastwatch-by-the-Sea because that was the closest tower to Hardhome.

[Tikichick]

Maybe pre-KL Sansa grew up taking her cues about Jon from Catelyn.  Sansa was the child who favored her mother in looks and personality, didn't really feel "of Winterfell".

[taanja]

20 hours ago, Tikichick said:

It was preposterous for a specific purpose.   True Lannister loyalists would have reacted much differently to any slight to their queen and Arya knew it.  She was "calling" their cards so to speak.

I agree. Upon re-watch Arya is definitely testing the waters so to speak to gage what their reaction might be. When they laughed--- she knew for the most part that they were just regular people who happen to be Lannister soldiers. No immediate threat to her.

[Tikichick]

4 hours ago, CloudySky said:

I think she'll kill the Mountain but be too weakened to take on Cersei as well. And when she's on the brink of being killed by Cersei, Jaime will be faces with a difficult choice between his oath to protect Aria and his love for Cersei combined with the difficult nuance of being the Kingslayer who has stabbed his King in the back before because it was best for the realm. He's witness to Cersei destroying everything and everyone and it will be ironic that he got rid of the Targaeryan dynasty by stabbing his King in the back and will help usher in the Targaeryan dynasty by stabbing his Queen in the back again. Or by wrapping his hand(s) around her throat...

Very intriguing idea!

[calvinshobbes]

31 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

Sansa has been frequently criticized in this episode for not providing Jon with more specific intelligence about what Cersei could or might do (as if in the real world people have step by step instructions on what their enemies will do).

But Jon has yet to posit a theory on how the Walkers will get beyond the Wall.  He only sent Tormund to Eastwatch-by-the-Sea because that was the closest tower to Hardhome.

Jon may not know that magic binds the wall and keeps the White Walkers from breaching the wall. Maybe that is something Bran will tell the Nights Watch or something Sam will find out in the books. But Jon fought the Wildlings and Mance when they attacked Castle Black. He probably will assume the Walkers will just overwhelm their towers like they did at Hardhome. 

Edited July 19, 2017 by calvinshobbes

[Constantinople]

12 minutes ago, calvinshobbes said:

Jon may not know that magic binds the wall and keeps the White Walkers from breaching the wall. Maybe that is something Bran will tell the Nights Watch or something Sam will find out in the books. But Jon fought the Wildlings and Mance when they attacked Castle Black. He probably will assume the Walkers will just overwhelm their towers like they did at Hardhome. 

The Wall is 700 feet tall or something like that and made of stone.  The walls at Hardhome were, IIRC, 2-3 times a person's height of wood.  Moreover, there was a hill at Hardhome overlooking the fort that enabled the Night King to send a waterfall of wights into the camp.  I don't think that would be possible at the Wall.

I suppose the wights could climb the wall.  The Hold the Door episode from last year showed some climbing abilities.

But Jon doesn't know that.  So I'm just noting the disparity in reaction to Jon and Sansa when they both act from limited information that is lacking in detail.

[CloudySky]

Is it giving Sansa too much credit to think that she publicly opposed Jon on purpose so that anyone who might be against him would come to her with their schemes and she would know about it? Whereas if they were a united front, somebody working to betray them would go completely unnoticed. Littlefinger for example reveled in it and thinks he can get Sansa on his side over Jon. Whereas in the private conversation between Jon and Sansa it was clear to me that she is firmly with him and loves him and just doesn't want him to be too trusting like their father and brother.

[Tikichick]

3 minutes ago, CloudySky said:

Is it giving Sansa too much credit to think that she publicly opposed Jon on purpose so that anyone who might be against him would come to her with their schemes and she would know about it? Whereas if they were a united front, somebody working to betray them would go completely unnoticed. Littlefinger for example reveled in it and thinks he can get Sansa on his side over Jon. Whereas in the private conversation between Jon and Sansa it was clear to me that she is firmly with him and loves him and just doesn't want him to be too trusting like their father and brother.

Something is definitely up with Sansa's behavior.  IMO she's putting on the front LF is looking for, but your idea fits with that as well.

I agree that Sansa loves Jon and wants the best for him.

[FnkyChkn34]

25 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

The Wall is 700 feet tall or something like that and made of stone.  The walls at Hardhome were, IIRC, 2-3 times a person's height of wood.  Moreover, there was a hill at Hardhome overlooking the fort that enabled the Night King to send a waterfall of wights into the camp.  I don't think that would be possible at the Wall.

I suppose the wights could climb the wall.  The Hold the Door episode from last year showed some climbing abilities.

But Jon doesn't know that.  So I'm just noting the disparity in reaction to Jon and Sansa when they both act from limited information that is lacking in detail.

The Wall is actually made of ice, isn't it?  Not to be picky, but it might matter.  And since the Wildlings could climb it (with relative ease), I think Jon guesses that the Night King can too.  Plus, they may have other special "powers" or magic that no one knows about yet.

[Tikichick]

2 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

The Wall is actually made of ice, isn't it?  Not to be picky, but it might matter.  And since the Wildlings could climb it (with relative ease), I think Jon guesses that the Night King can too.  Plus, they may have other special "powers" or magic that no one knows about yet.

I thought the wall varied along the many miles it runs.  I believe the portion most referred to is both wood and ice, and is the highest portion as well, which is the area of Castle Black.

[FnkyChkn34]

3 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

I thought the wall varied along the many miles it runs.  I believe the portion most referred to is both wood and ice, and is the highest portion as well, which is the area of Castle Black.

When all else fails, I consult A Wiki of Ice and Fire - http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Wall  :-)

This says the wall is mostly ice, some stone and earth.  It has spells woven into it, and appears blue or gray depending on the time of day and weather.  This says that the highest portion is actually near Greyguard?  Which I've never heard of...

[Tikichick]

44 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

When all else fails, I consult A Wiki of Ice and Fire - http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Wall  :-)

This says the wall is mostly ice, some stone and earth.  It has spells woven into it, and appears blue or gray depending on the time of day and weather.  This says that the highest portion is actually near Greyguard?  Which I've never heard of...

I don't think those in the Night Watch or the citizens of Westeros they protect have much knowledge about the wall, or its castles either.

As far as your previous statement about the magic of the white walkers, no doubt there's a lot there to be revealed, about the white walkers, the wall, the Children, the Night's King, etc. 

How about Craster's baby boys, it seems they will have a particular significance -- which could prove very interesting with Sam, Gilly and little Samwell in particular.

Edited July 19, 2017 by Tikichick
Typo

[BitterApple]

2 hours ago, taanja said:

I agree. Upon re-watch Arya is definitely testing the waters so to speak to gage what their reaction might be. When they laughed--- she knew for the most part that they were just regular people who happen to be Lannister soldiers. No immediate threat to her.

I wonder, what would she have done if they believed her and challenged her? I know she's supposed to be a ninja bad ass and all, but could she have killed six or seven men in one go? A couple of them could've probably reached their swords in enough time to take her out. 

[taanja]

19 hours ago, Oscirus said:

I've already conceded that she's smart. Doesn't change the fact that she shouldn't know how to run a castle.

How much do you really think Walder Frey ran the castle? Seriously? He let the woman do all the work. Barking out orders basically. I think Arya is capable of dong that for a few days/weeks. It's really not something to get hung up on. 

[Gertrude]

47 minutes ago, taanja said:

How much do you really think Walder Frey ran the castle? Seriously? He let the woman do all the work. Barking out orders basically. I think Arya is capable of dong that for a few days/weeks. It's really not something to get hung up on. 

I'm thinking it's much like running a company. Sure, you need leadership and knowledge to set it up and make sure it keeps running to your liking, but CEOs take vacation from time to time and trust the people they hired to not burn things down while they are gone. So yeah, not something I think is out of the ordinary.

[that one guy]

19 hours ago, blackwing said:

On 7/17/2017 at 9:16 PM, kieyra said:

I had to look up who Ed Sheeran was. I guess I don't care too much, because I loved it when members of one of my favorite metal bands (Mastodon) got to play Wildlings in S5, but maybe if I already knew who he was I would have been more annoyed. Both CNN and Forbes are treating it like some big deal. 

They're treating it like a big deal because he's arguably one of the biggest pop stars on the radio today.  You seemingly can't turn on a Top 40 radio station and listen for 15 minutes without hearing one of his two current big hits, "Shape of You" or "Castle on the Hill".  I like the guy, but I agree that I found his appearance distracting.  Mostly because of the closeups on his huge puffy face which took up almost the entire screen.

He seems like a sensitive soul, I had previously read that he quit Twitter because he didn't like to read criticism.  Now after this latest round of backlash, he apparently deleted his account altogether.

Involved in a big discussion on FB about this. I also had no idea who Ed Sheeran was, although investigating afterwards I realized I'd heard "Castle on the Hill" a few times. The media universe is so splintered - I've never listened to Top 40 radio on purpose - as a teenager I listened to what was then the "Album Oriented Rock" format, now I listen to what the industry calls "Adult Album Alternative" (lots of Jack White and Arcade Fire, but also Adele, U2, and older stuff like the Rolling Stones, Talking Heads etc). So I didn't realize that guy was famous. In my opinion, George Ezra and Hozier did the thing he's doing, better, a couple years ago. But he's poppier, which is a plus for some people and a minus for me. People didn't make a fuss like this when Will Champion from Coldplay led the band in the Red Wedding - then again, the Red Wedding obviously overwhelmed any discussion of stunt casting. But Coldplay is much bigger than Ed Sheeran, judged by the metrics of 1) they've sold more than twice and many albums and had more than twice as many downloads and 2) I've heard of them before. I could even hum some of their tunes, in spite of the fact that I don't really like them. They're actually ubiquitous, I've even heard a string quartet play a Coldplay song at a wedding (nobody was killed that day).

All of which is to say, I didn't know who he was, and I thought the scene worked well. If you weren't distracted by who the singer was, you were kind of creeped out that he was singing the ballad about Tyrion and Shae that the folk singer wrote for blackmail purposes in the books. Having it sung after he killed her makes it kind of disturbing.

[MrWhyt]

2 hours ago, Constantinople said:

I suppose the wights could climb the wall.  The Hold the Door episode from last year showed some climbing abilities.

the dead don't need to breath and the wall doesn't extend into the sea

[proserpina65]

16 hours ago, stagmania said:

I tend to think that the writing is just sloppy and they forgot that Sam already knew about the dragonglass at Dragonstone

I suspect he had no idea HOW MUCH dragonglass is at Dragonstone until he saw that map.

[BitterApple]

Regarding Walder and the castle, I'm sure rich people back then were no different than rich people are now. They hire people to do the scut work and have little involvement with the details. I'm sure Bill Gates has no idea what days the landscapers mow his lawn or when the housekeepers buy groceries, but it gets done. I think Arya could fake it for a few days and nobody would notice.

Edited July 19, 2017 by BitterApple

[VCRTracking]

I can't really hate on the Ed Sheeran cameo. It was a nice surprise for Maisie and we got to see Arya smile.

Edited July 19, 2017 by VCRTracking

[GrailKing]

I really don't get the hate for ES, he's a fan, Maisie's a fan it was a nice gesture and somehow this took people out of the moment?

Seems like lack of concentration on the part of some viewers,.

Close your eyes ,take in the words ;open your eyes take in the scene they gave ,it isn't about the singer it's about how human and connected people are; even in war.

[blackwing]

19 minutes ago, that one guy said:

All of which is to say, I didn't know who he was, and I thought the scene worked well. If you weren't distracted by who the singer was, you were kind of creeped out that he was singing the ballad about Tyrion and Shae that the folk singer wrote for blackmail purposes in the books. Having it sung after he killed her makes it kind of disturbing.

I think it might possibly have been better received if they hadn't hyped it up to no end, as it was widely reported in the media months in advance that he would be on the show.  I think if he had just appeared without the advance announcement, people might have thought "hey, is that..." or "that can't be him right".  Or have him cameo in the background like the other singers who have cameoed.  

But my issue with the scene was that it just seemed so very out of place.  How many times have characters on this show gone from here to there and how many times have we seen it?  We almost never see them traipsing through the woods and encountering randoms if nothing of consequence happens during the encounter.  There seemed to be absolutely no purpose to this fairly long scene except "Maisie Williams can squeeeeee about being in a scene with Ed Sheeran".  Some would say "well now, it humanises the Lannister soldiers, the plump faced Sheeran is a soulful singer, the one guy just wanted to get home to his pregnant wife and hoped it was a girl so the baby wouldn't grow up to leave home to fight, etc".  But I don't think we needed this scene to show that people are people so why should it be, you and I should get along so awfully.  I think this scene would have worked for me only if Arya had killed them all.  Yes, these Lannister soldiers seem like nice guys who are only following orders, but Arya should have killed them to show that she means business, and that Cersei is still on the list.

[Tikichick]

3 minutes ago, blackwing said:

I think it might possibly have been better received if they hadn't hyped it up to no end, as it was widely reported in the media months in advance that he would be on the show.  I think if he had just appeared without the advance announcement, people might have thought "hey, is that..." or "that can't be him right".  Or have him cameo in the background like the other singers who have cameoed.  

But my issue with the scene was that it just seemed so very out of place.  How many times have characters on this show gone from here to there and how many times have we seen it?  We almost never see them traipsing through the woods and encountering randoms if nothing of consequence happens during the encounter.  There seemed to be absolutely no purpose to this fairly long scene except "Maisie Williams can squeeeeee about being in a scene with Ed Sheeran".  Some would say "well now, it humanises the Lannister soldiers, the plump faced Sheeran is a soulful singer, the one guy just wanted to get home to his pregnant wife and hoped it was a girl so the baby wouldn't grow up to leave home to fight, etc".  But I don't think we needed this scene to show that people are people so why should it be, you and I should get along so awfully.  I think this scene would have worked for me only if Arya had killed them all.  Yes, these Lannister soldiers seem like nice guys who are only following orders, but Arya should have killed them to show that she means business, and that Cersei is still on the list.

IMO Arya didn't need to kill them to show she means business and Cersei is still on the list -- far from it.  Curious you need that validation of what Arya's mission is in the very same episode we watch the Hound still grappling to come to grips with his past indiscriminate killings -- some of which still occurred after he turned his back on the life he was leading doing just that as part of the Lannister court.

[domina89]

I haven't seen this mentioned here yet, but I watched a video review last night where someone pointed out that in the map scene at King's Landing, Cersei is standing on the neck area of the map while Jaime is standing on the fingers area.  Subtle valonqar foreshadowing, perhaps?

[FnkyChkn34]

33 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

I suspect he had no idea HOW MUCH dragonglass is at Dragonstone until he saw that map.

I agree, especially because Sam said something like, "oh, Stannis already told me this..."

[kieyra]

29 minutes ago, blackwing said:

But my issue with the scene was that it just seemed so very out of place.  How many times have characters on this show gone from here to there and how many times have we seen it?  We almost never see them traipsing through the woods and encountering randoms if nothing of consequence happens during the encounter.  There seemed to be absolutely no purpose to this fairly long scene except "Maisie Williams can squeeeeee about being in a scene with Ed Sheeran".  Some would say "well now, it humanises the Lannister soldiers, the plump faced Sheeran is a soulful singer, the one guy just wanted to get home to his pregnant wife and hoped it was a girl so the baby wouldn't grow up to leave home to fight, etc".  But I don't think we needed this scene to show that people are people so why should it be, you and I should get along so awfully.  I think this scene would have worked for me only if Arya had killed them all.  Yes, these Lannister soldiers seem like nice guys who are only following orders, but Arya should have killed them to show that she means business, and that Cersei is still on the list.

Keeping in mind I'm from the 'who is ed sheeran' side of the table, I really liked that scene, and it really had nothing to do with humanizing anyone. It was because the showrunners had programmed me to expect someone to end up dead and/or raped in a setup like that, so the fact that they just shared some food & booze and didn't make with the killing was a nice twist ... and made for a weirdly tense scene.

[blackwing]

44 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

IMO Arya didn't need to kill them to show she means business and Cersei is still on the list -- far from it.  Curious you need that validation of what Arya's mission is in the very same episode we watch the Hound still grappling to come to grips with his past indiscriminate killings -- some of which still occurred after he turned his back on the life he was leading doing just that as part of the Lannister court.

I would agree that it's obvious that Arya means business... she took out the entire Frey family.  But my point was that as long as we were going to see her encounter this group of randoms, it seemed a bit inconsistent that she didn't take care of the Lannister soldiers.  They might have had a hand somehow that connected them to Ned's death.  The whole scene seemed like a waste of time to me since there was no payoff.

[FnkyChkn34]

5 minutes ago, kieyra said:

Keeping in mind I'm from the 'who is ed sheeran' side of the table, I really liked that scene, and it really had nothing to do with humanizing anyone. It was because the showrunners had programmed me to expect someone to end up dead and/or raped in a setup like that, so the fact that they just shared some food & booze and didn't make with the killing was a nice twist ... and made for a weirdly tense scene.

I thought it was oddly tense for a different reason though, because I knew exactly who Ed Sheeran is...  I was wondering will they or won't they kill Ed Sheeran!?  Would he get the true Game of Thrones treatment??

But otherwise, it was a bit out of place, but not because of Ed's cameo.  It just didn't seem relevant to anything to me, but hopefully that will change later in the season.

[Tikichick]

2 minutes ago, blackwing said:

I would agree that it's obvious that Arya means business... she took out the entire Frey family.  But my point was that as long as we were going to see her encounter this group of randoms, it seemed a bit inconsistent that she didn't take care of the Lannister soldiers.  They might have had a hand somehow that connected them to Ned's death.  The whole scene seemed like a waste of time to me since there was no payoff.

To me the point of the scene was it didn't need the kill to payoff.  I thought the scene was informing us Arya wasn't out to kill indiscriminately, rather that she understood what it meant to decide to take someone's life.  In the same episode we see Sandor struggling on a very similar, and much longer, path.  He was raised from a child with the expectation his path in life was decided, and he embraced it with not much thought behind it.  Finally he'd had enough and turned his back and left KL.  His time with Arya informed him as much as it did her, despite the differences in their age and experience. 

Going back to that Inn and facing again the results of what he had done at a time when he had known better was another serious turning point for the Hound.  Arya's moral compass has been much truer and steadier by comparison.  That's what I thought the soldier encounter was meant to illustrate to us.

[GrailKing]

12 minutes ago, blackwing said:

I would agree that it's obvious that Arya means business... she took out the entire Frey family.  But my point was that as long as we were going to see her encounter this group of randoms, it seemed a bit inconsistent that she didn't take care of the Lannister soldiers.  They might have had a hand somehow that connected them to Ned's death.  The whole scene seemed like a waste of time to me since there was no payoff.

So a good payoff is for Arya to just kill anyone under lannister control even if they are not involved with what happened to her house ?

I don't think that is realistic, even in RL wars enemies have shown kindness to each other, and afterwards friendship.

I think if Ned was looking down at Arya he be sad and a bit disappointed in what she done WRG to that scene if she killed them.

[Oscirus]

1 hour ago, proserpina65 said:

I suspect he had no idea HOW MUCH dragonglass is at Dragonstone until he saw that map.

Even if he didn't, shouldn't  Davos know?

Edited July 19, 2017 by Oscirus

[Mya Stone]

Every single season we have to step in and ask you all to stop the repetitive back and forth. It ALWAYS revolves around Sansa. 

Stop it. 

Please don't make us want to "dracarys" you or this thread. 

[GrailKing]

1 minute ago, Oscirus said:

Even if he didn't, shouldn't  Davos?

That's hard to say, hell Stannis new it was there ,but; he may not have known how much , he just said lots of it, keep reading Samwell Tarley, then off to the Citidel.

[Tikichick]

5 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

Even if he didn't, shouldn't  Davos?

I guess that depends on how recognizable it is to the average person.  We also have to remember that Davos didn't serve there during the time of dragons, but during Barratheon possession.  Knowledge of dragons and things associated with them might not have been part of Davos' knowledge.

[proserpina65]

32 minutes ago, blackwing said:

I would agree that it's obvious that Arya means business... she took out the entire Frey family.  But my point was that as long as we were going to see her encounter this group of randoms, it seemed a bit inconsistent that she didn't take care of the Lannister soldiers.  They might have had a hand somehow that connected them to Ned's death.  The whole scene seemed like a waste of time to me since there was no payoff.

I think the point of it was her learning that not every soldier is a cruel bastard who needs to be killed.  Clearly these were men who were there because they had to be, not because they wanted to be, and she seemed to be affected by their talk of their homes and families.

[taanja]

49 minutes ago, kieyra said:

Keeping in mind I'm from the 'who is ed sheeran' side of the table, I really liked that scene, and it really had nothing to do with humanizing anyone. It was because the showrunners had programmed me to expect someone to end up dead and/or raped in a setup like that, so the fact that they just shared some food & booze and didn't make with the killing was a nice twist ... and made for a weirdly tense scene.

This is exactly how I felt. I still have no clue who Ed Sheeran is -- and I re-watched that scene and he doesn't really have any lines except to sing. He just sits there and smiles. and nods.

It was that this show has me so programmed to think anything nice happening one moment means something horrific will happen the next. Like when the baby-faced boy was saying how he should be fishing with his father-- I was waiting for someone to come up behind him and chop off his head.

That's what made the scene so intriguing. So intense. you KNOW we were all waiting for something terrible to happen!

[BitterApple]

I actually thought there was more tension in the Ed Sheeran scene than there was with Walder Frey. Don't get me wrong, the cold opening was cool as hell, but pretty much everyone figured out it was Arya two seconds in. So while it was awesome to watch the Freys get their due, it wasn't an OMG! moment or a huge climax. You knew everyone in the room was a goner. 

With Arya and the Lannister soldiers, it was completely different. There's a history of things not ending well whenever a character comes across a group of men in the woods, so I think that's what most of us were expecting. Arya testing the men and gauging the location and number of weapons built us up to believe Bad Shit was about to happen. It was almost a relief when it ended in a rabbit carcass and harmless chit chat. 

Edited July 19, 2017 by BitterApple

[FnkyChkn34]

2 minutes ago, BitterApple said:

I actually thought there was more tension in the Ed Sheeran scene than there was with Walder Frey. Don't get me wrong, the cold opening was cool as hell, but pretty much everyone figured out it was Arya two seconds in. So while it was awesome to watch the Freys get their due, it wasn't an OMG! moment or a huge climax. You knew everyone in the room was a goner. 

I'll admit to being a wee bit dense - I thought the opening scene was a flashback at first.  It didn't hit me that it was Arya until she started to make the speech about killing a pregnant woman, and then I knew right away that the wine was poison (before they started keeling over).

[RedHackle]

Heavy sigh. Welcome to the Kate Austin School of Character Development.  I'm going to pretend that "don't ever contradict me in front of others" isn't the hoariest cliche in history, and skip right over to the writers having a smart, strong female character doing a dumb thing that endangers a male character, and the viewers blaming the character, rather than the writers. Is there a woman here who believes that when Sansa Stark was in King's Landing while she was serving as Joffrey's favorite chew toy, that she kept her head attached to her shoulders in by doing stupid things? Like contradicting a King in front of everyone? I have no problem with a character surprising me by doing something I didn't see coming. But by having a smart, crafty character do something outright idiotic, the writers are telling me that for that moment at least, they decided to phone it in.

And speaking of cliches, the restricted section in the library? {Snort!}

And yes, far too much filler for an episode in an already truncated season. But the passive-aggressive snark-fest* between Euron and Jaime was a delight. And for the most part, I very much enjoyed this episode, with the previously noted exceptions.

*Credit that line to someone here who used that to describe the arch exchanges between Varys and Littlefinger.

[Francie]

I’m still having a problem them shoehorning the 1,000 year dynasty line into Jaime and Cersei’s conversation.  It makes no sense.

Imagine a conversation like this:

Beth: Where are you going on vacation?

Veronica: Atlantis.

Beth: Atlantis doesn’t exist. And even if it did, it’s buried under the sea. You can’t go there.

Veronica: Oh, well, Florida then.

And the next important, vital in fact, question is left out:

Beth:  Why the hell did you say Atlantis then?

And the inevitable follow up questions – Were you shitting me? Were you serious? But, nope, Jaime doesn't get to press on as to why Cersei feels the need to rule. Why they don't cut their losses and run, and actually confront whether Cersei is merely power hungry or operating from a place of the best defense is a good offense.   Instead, it's just a non sequitor to where Daenerys will attack first. 

But this show wanted Cersei to echo her father and talk about a 1,000 year dynasty.  We got it, show. The show will end with Bran, in 1,000 years, in a tree telling us how it all ended. Now can we have realistic, meaningful dialogue back, please? Please and thank you.

 the writers are telling me that for that moment at least, they decided to phone it in.

 

I think they phoned in the entire show, from start to finish. 

Edited July 19, 2017 by Francie

[Raachel2008]

5 hours ago, Constantinople said:

The Wall is 700 feet tall or something like that and made of stone.  The walls at Hardhome were, IIRC, 2-3 times a person's height of wood.  Moreover, there was a hill at Hardhome overlooking the fort that enabled the Night King to send a waterfall of wights into the camp.  I don't think that would be possible at the Wall.

Jon himself climbed the Wall with Ygritte, Tormund and other wildlings. If human beings can climb that 700 feet tall or something wall made of stone and ice, what makes you think that magic creatures cannot?

Edited July 19, 2017 by Raachel2008
I cannot spell.

[Mabinogia]

2 hours ago, GrailKing said:

I really don't get the hate for ES, he's a fan, Maisie's a fan it was a nice gesture and somehow this took people out of the moment?

Seems like lack of concentration on the part of some viewers,.

seemed more like crappy writing and directing to me. I had no clue Coldplay guy was at the Red Wedding because the camera didn't basically go "look, it's Coldplay!" but I sure as hell knew that the camera was focusing on this odd blonde guy who looked vaguely familiar to me as some kind of singer. I know his name, know he's a singer, and I think he sings mushy pop love songs? but I could be wrong about that. I don't listen to pop music. I just found the camera continuing to come back to him distracting, since he didn't seem to be a very good actor. I assumed he was either some famous person and I was supposed to be excited he was there. I wasn't.

Also, "nice gesture" to an actor and a musician is a crappy reason to shoehorn him into the show and focus so heavily on him in their scene that really felt put there because they were making a "nice gesture" rather than telling the story of the show. That is the very definition of being taken out of the show. He was there for reasons that had nothing at all to do with the storyline.

[Tikichick]

2 minutes ago, Raachel2008 said:

Jon himself climbed the Wall with Ygritte, Tormund and other wildlings. If human beings cam climb that 700 feet tall or something wall made of stone and ice, what makes you think that magic creatures cannot?

It seems so far the obstacle has been magic or sorcery.

I wonder if Sam will ever run across the book that Old Nan got her stories from and that will help him put some pieces together?  (Tongue in cheek for the most part, I know Old Nan had no book and might not have been able to read.) 

[whateverdgaf]

6 minutes ago, Francie said:

I’m still having a problem them shoehorning the 1,000 year dynasty line into Jaime and Cersei’s conversation.  It makes no sense.

Imagine a conversation like this:

Beth: Where are you going on vacation?

Veronica: Atlantis.

Beth: Atlantis doesn’t exist. And even if it did, it’s buried under the sea. You can’t go there.

Veronica: Oh, well, Florida then.

And the next important, vital in fact, question is left out:

Beth:  Why the hell did you say Atlantis then?

And the inevitable follow up questions – Were you shitting me? Were you serious? But, nope, Jaime doesn't get to press on as to why Cersei feels the need to rule. Why they don't cut their losses and run, and actually confront whether Cersei is merely power hungry or operating from a place of the best defense is a good offense.   Instead, it's just a non sequitor to where Daenerys will attack first. 

But this show wanted Cersei to echo her father and talk about a 1,000 year dynasty.  We got it, show. The show will end with Bran, in 1,000 years, in a tree telling us how it all ended. Now can we have realistic, meaningful dialogue back, please? Please and thank you.

I think it was to show that Cersei is delusional, which Jaime recognizes and sees that there is little reasoning with her. That's probably why he hasn't tried to convince her to run, he knows that she won't. The fact he has to spell out to her that she is queen of three kingdoms at best shows that he is struggling to press some semblance of reality onto her.

[Francie]

7 minutes ago, whateverdgaf said:

I think it was to show that Cersei is delusional, which Jaime recognizes and sees that there is little reasoning with her. That's probably why he hasn't tried to convince her to run, he knows that she won't. The fact he has to spell out to her that she is queen of three kingdoms at best shows that he is struggling to press some semblance of reality onto her.

I suppose that's the best explanation for it.  But listening to that dialogue though was like having to listen to an out-of-tune singer accompanied by a cheap, dull and untuned piano. It hurt my ears a bit. 

This is what I have to say about Ed Sheeran's (who?) appearance, Other than I want to give the poor kid a hug for all the hate he's getting.  Why the hell does someone who sings as well as he does wind up in the army? Now there's one guy who could be making an easy living in a castle as a singer. 

Edited July 19, 2017 by Francie

[Tikichick]

30 minutes ago, Mabinogia said:

seemed more like crappy writing and directing to me. I had no clue Coldplay guy was at the Red Wedding because the camera didn't basically go "look, it's Coldplay!" but I sure as hell knew that the camera was focusing on this odd blonde guy who looked vaguely familiar to me as some kind of singer. I know his name, know he's a singer, and I think he sings mushy pop love songs? but I could be wrong about that. I don't listen to pop music. I just found the camera continuing to come back to him distracting, since he didn't seem to be a very good actor. I assumed he was either some famous person and I was supposed to be excited he was there. I wasn't.

Also, "nice gesture" to an actor and a musician is a crappy reason to shoehorn him into the show and focus so heavily on him in their scene that really felt put there because they were making a "nice gesture" rather than telling the story of the show. That is the very definition of being taken out of the show. He was there for reasons that had nothing at all to do with the storyline.

Ed's actually pretty famously a ginger.

[GrailKing]

1 minute ago, Tikichick said:

Ed's actually pretty famously a ginger.

Yes but as viewers we are to ignore that; some can, some can't.

I thought what happened on Reddit was a damn shame, no need for it.

[Tikichick]

Just now, GrailKing said:

Yes but as viewers we are to ignore that; some can, some can't.

I thought what happened on Reddit was a damn shame, no need for it.

I've only heard some rumblings about Twitter, no idea about Reddit.  I think the fuss is kinda ridiculous myself, but then again maybe I'm biased because I happen to enjoy his music and from what I've seen he seems like a fun and genuine guy. 

I simply commented about his being ginger because the post I quoted referenced some "odd blonde guy".

[GrailKing]

Just now, Tikichick said:

I've only heard some rumblings about Twitter, no idea about Reddit.  I think the fuss is kinda ridiculous myself, but then again maybe I'm biased because I happen to enjoy his music and from what I've seen he seems like a fun and genuine guy. 

I simply commented about his being ginger because the post I quoted referenced some "odd blonde guy".

Maybe the fisherman's son.?