S07.E01: Dragonstone

[Blonde Gator]

On 7/16/2017 at 11:19 PM, Kanner said:

This was my first live season opener. Binge watched all 60 episodes last July.  It did not disappoint. Though I kept looking at the clock waiting for Dany to show up.  

The things I really liked:

- a strong confident King Jon (he has come a long way and developed through the seasons)

- Sansa's smackedown of Littlefinger

- the Frey demise (though I still don't get how a different face changes your whole body)

- Everything Euron

- jorah

- the sad closure for The Hound with that father and daughter

Here is the Wiki of Ice and Fire's entry on the Faceless Men, WARNING, CONTAINS SPOILERS:  http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Faceless_Men

Read the final paragraph of the "Inner Workings and Assassinations" section of the article.  As you can see, the Faceless Men are capable of taking on not only someone's face, but their other bodily aspects as well.  It is implied that it is a bit of a blood magic trick. 

[GrailKing]

5 hours ago, Raachel2008 said:

Who says Robin has to chose? LF could trip on the steps of one of those stairs in Winterfell or meet a boar somewhere, no need to have him around. He killed Lysa, he put Sansa into Ramsay's bed, there is more than enough to justify an 'accident'. Robin is a Tully and the son of Jon Arryn, his loyalty is to the Starks, his cousins. If LF died, do you think he would just withdraw his troops? I don't.

I like LF to meet Ghost privately my self.

[Francie]

9 minutes ago, stillshimpy said:

 In the previously was the visit to the farm and she was horrified that the Hound had taken their silver, etc.  I take he hadn't killed them, as they were in a different location

This little fact leads me even more to believe that Arya actually killed those Lannister soldiers. It's a juxtaposition of where the Hound and Arya are  contrasted with where they used to be. He's now remorseful for something horrible that he did. She, who then had a conscious, is more ruthless and bloodthirsty. 

There was something that was just too kumbaya about that scene.  They laid it on in spades about the brand new father and the soldier who made the blackberry wine, who just wanted to go help his father on his ship. 

They are still men. They are Lannister soldiers. For that alone,  according to her own moral code, she might feel justified in killing them, while she was willing to spare the innocent Frey women.  We all are to interpret the scene now as her realizing that  not all those of the opposing side are villains. But I think that while we see that fact, Arya is so far gone that she's just playing them.  In any event, that moment is the real test of her character. 

 I just have a feeling that someone we know us going to come across seven dead Lannister soldiers in a few episodes down the road. 

[TwistedandBored]

19 hours ago, britesongs said:

This reminded me of Daario's comment last season that she is a conqueror and not a ruler (in that she'll be bored once she wins and sits the throne). I think it's a nice detail that reinforce that idea. 

 

I don't think that is the case. I just think Danny  more focused on other things. In season 2, Danny wanted to be with her Khal and her baby. In season 3, she was focus on getting justice for the slaves, and in this one...I just think she was emotional about coming home and keeping it together by focusing on the bigger picture. I just think she also felt unworthy. Her whole life has been about getting the Iron Throne. It is neat to see her focus on other things besides sitting on a throne. 

[FnkyChkn34]

If Arya really kills 7 Lannister soldiers for no reason other than them being Lannisters, then she's irredeemable to me. That act alone proves, at least in my opinion, that she's a clear sociopathic murderer and not just someone who is avenging her family.  Those soldiers did nothing to her, killed no one she knew, and even said they didn't want to be there. Absolutely no reason to kill them. 

[Blonde Gator]

23 hours ago, BitterApple said:

Hell, if teenage Arya was able to make it to Riverrun on her own, a few well-trained assassins could probably shlep up to Winterfell with minimal trouble.

Cersei's dead broke.  She couldn't afford to hire the Faceless Men when Jon was the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch.  She certainly can't afford to have the FM assassinate him now that Jon's King in the North.  You see, the FM charge on a sliding scale fee....the harder the kill (and the richer the person offering the contract) the more expensive it is.  Cersei couldn't even manage to have Tyrion killed when he was on the run, not even by offering a Lordship.  All she managed to do was to have some poor sorry dwarfs killed. 

[GrailKing]

6 hours ago, Raachel2008 said:

Who says Robin has to chose? LF could trip on the steps of one of those stairs in Winterfell or meet a boar somewhere, no need to have him around. He killed Lysa, he put Sansa into Ramsay's bed, there is more than enough to justify an 'accident'. Robin is a Tully and the son of Jon Arryn, his loyalty is to the Starks, his cousins. If LF died, do you think he would just withdraw his troops? I don't.

I like LF to meet Ghost privately my self.

[TwistedandBored]

I keep seeing this discussion of Sansa vs Jon and I don't really think this episode was really as huge as many seem to think. They were both right in a way. They just need to communicate some more. Jon and Sansa should have discussed and argued what they were going to do about those lands. Since Sansa has already been to court, she should know that is not the place to argue with a ruling King. It undermines his reign. There is a place and time and that was not it.  I also think Jon needed to include Sansa, his only other sibling for now in the decision making instead of ignoring her opinions. Argue behind close doors and present united front Stark kids. Anyways, I just think this was part of the growing pains as a ruling siblings. 

[Blonde Gator]

4 hours ago, Raachel2008 said:

Actually he does trust others, he trusted even people who killed him, and we've seen he trusts Tormund and Davos. Maybe he doesn't trust Sansa as much because she didn't tell, you know, about the Vale. But I'm not saying he doesn't trust her, what I'm saying is that Jon trusts people.

 

He does not have a home? Sure he does. Winterfell is home. The Lords 'elected' him King because they recognized him as a Stark, thus it is his home.

Or that. I just think it is ridiculous that LF is still around,

The Vale is south of the neck and Moat Cailin.  It is NOT part of the North.  Therefore, the Knights of the Vale are not subjects of the King in the North.  Baelish, on behalf of the Lord of the Vale, Sweet Robin, has allied the Vale, FOR NOW, with the North.  But the Vale and her Lords and vassals are not subjects of the North.  And for now, not subjects of Cersei Lannister, First of Her Name, either....but you can bet she sent LittleFinger a raven demanding he bend the knee, or else!

[GrailKing]

3 hours ago, ParadoxLost said:

But that was a tactic.  She (likely with LF's counsel) used Jon's army to bait her trap and win the battle.  It wasn't a failure to communicate with Jon that got thousands killed.  She didn't tell Jon because she didn't believe he would use his men as cannon fodder and that he didn't deserve a say.

If it's a tactic it's LF alone, as he told Cersei, let Stannis and Boltons battle use the Vale to wipe out the remainders, no way is Sansa looking to get Jon or her people killed foolishly. Sansa didn't want LF involved period, she made that clear in Moles Town, he's alive only because he saved her.

When she and Jon went looking and only when she realized they weren't getting any more she swallowed hard and asked for his aid, he's a snake; she wanted him no where near Jon or her, what ! she knows Ramsey won't let Rickon or Jon or Bran live, you think she think any different about LF, not telling Jon had nothing to do with her baiting Jon, it has everything to do with not trusting LF and maybe Jon vetoing her on it.

And again I believe when she saw Shaggy's head tossed on the ground she though Rickon was already dead or will be before the battle, as much as she knew Ramsey it never came to her he use Rickon as bait.

She was determined to get that army, even if she had to sell herself for it.

Now this year she has to come up with a plan to get rid of him, it may not be the Northern way, but then again LF doesn't deserve an honorable death; does he.

[WindyNights]

56 minutes ago, stillshimpy said:

Except Arya doesn't want to kill people because she's a sociopathic killer, she wants to kill the enemies of her family, the people who murdered her family.   She's not a serial killer, she wanted to kill those who had made her suffer but this is the girl who got into all sorts of problems because she didn't really understand the peril in playing with the butcher's boy as the lord's daughter.   Micah would always be the person to pay the worst price and she knows that.  

Sansa talked about how their father never wanted them to see how ugly the world was, but both Arya and Sansa have, in lurid, sanity-breaking detail.    

The Hound was always on Arya's list because of Micah.   I know she's come a very long way and done a lot of horrible things, but Arya cared about people and injustice.  She admired knights and soldiers and those soldiers were acting like the men her father wanted her to believe soldiers were, at heart.  Simply doing a job, but not what the Hound claimed, not all men were born killers because they liked it.  Even good men.   Yes, I know that the Hound said most of that to Sansa, but Arya and the Hound hung out for kind of a while and she got to hear all about his life philosophy.  In the previously was the visit to the farm and she was horrified that the Hound had taken their silver, etc.  I take he hadn't killed them, as they were in a different location.  

But Arya has been viewing anything Lannister related as being like the Lannisters.   I do think she changed her mind about killing them.   I don't think Arya was going to deny the (hoped for) daughter of that man the possibility of ever even meeting him.  Or that he'd never know one way or the other.   I doubt she killed them, very much, she'd have been violating the guest right's in the other direction.  They invited her and treated her as their guest.   She can't kill them if her speech meant anything. 

She tested the good men and they passed. 

That actually does make her a serial killer though. Even if the guys she kills may be bad and she reasons for it, she's still embarking on a killing spree that won't let up. She's what people would call a mission-oriented serial killer.

 

In today's world, we'd put her away for life or give her the death penalty.

[GrailKing]

3 hours ago, Nanrad said:

This isn no shade towards Sansa, but despite arya being a mass murderer (shrugs), Sansa comes off as the colder one. Aryas murders fueled by revenge and we see glimpses of her humanity still intact. I can't recall the scene accurately, but she talked about her brother as if he was some random (impending) death. I think the most emotion we see from her is when her trauma is brought up and when she returned to winterfell.

Sansa has a reason to be cold tho.

She was stating a fact to Jon: Rickon is an obstacle to Ramsey legitimacy  he's the son of Neds which is above Jon a bastard or Sansa herself a girl.

This is an accurate statement fueled by Shaggy's head tossed to the ground.

You must have totally bypassed her quiet rage when she told Ramsey he's dying on the morrow sleep well, the sadness when she saw Jon fall for the trap she wasn't on the battlefield so she didn't see Rickon, if she had she tell Jon the truth stay put tough decision but the correct one; or the rage in her voice when she asked Jon where Ramsy was.

If people think she's cold, well she's a Stark of the past as Bran described to Osha, not Ned's version, that version got her father,Brother and Mother killed ( and it was influenced by Ned fostering with Jon Arryn ), that's not happening anymore while she lives. She won't be Cersei, more QOT.

[Oscirus]

9 hours ago, screamin said:

10 hours ago, Oscirus said:

As a leader, it's his job to make the decisions regardless,  If she doesn't like the way he's leading, pull him to the side afterwards. Don't put Jon in an unwinnable situation by arguing with him. If he agreed with her and changed his mind, he looks weak, if he doesn't, he's being too rigid and according to his own council, he's rewarding traitors. 

Jon's lords are allowed to disagree with him in Jon's free-for-all meetings (as when they argued and protested Jon's decision to order girls to start military training at age 10.) Why should Sansa be forbidden to do this when his lords are allowed to?

She's sitting at the head table it's bad form to tell the King he's wrong in front of everybody, especially  when she has unlimited access to Jon both before and after the meeting.  From Bran Robb and Lyanna have all held similar meetings and not once has anybody at the front table openly disagreed with them, what makes Sansa so special?

 

10 hours ago, screamin said:

The way I see it, Jon has the choice of either taking a little longer to go over his more important decisions, taking both public and private input before announcing them (which I think is actually a pretty good idea) and allow Sansa private input into his decisions if he forbids her public ones; or treat Sansa as one of his lords, affording her the priviledge of disagreeing as he does to any of his lords, and ultimately making the final decision  himself. I think either option is better than just cutting Sansa off from any opportunity to effectively voice disagreement that may turn out to be important.

Sansa has no experience leading so why should he go over anything with her?  Should Dany do the same thing with her more experienced advisers before she makes decisions?  If Sansa wants to openly disagree with Jon then she should forgo her seat at the leadership table and sit her ass down at the other end with the other lords. I bet she won't do that.

 

9 hours ago, GrailKing said:

She is the ligament Lady ( ruler until Bran arrives ) of Winterfell he is King by proclamation, but he is holding these meetings in HER house that's what gives her the right, period, he has Stark blood but not the half that gives him Winterfell.

Unless a visitor puts a gun to your head, you'r e not going to let them over rule your decisions in your house, are you?

That gives her nothing but a seat on the council which she got.  Her being a benefactor doesn't automatically give her special rights to influence his decisions or publicly disagree with him. 

[GrailKing]

2 hours ago, screamin said:

All the armies know all about how Lyn Corbray publically declared his loathing for Littlefinger before the Lords Declarant but privately conspired with Littlefinger to screw the Lords Declarant - somehow only the Lords Declarant didn't know about it, and thus got screwed by LF, who ended up with the Regency of the Vale? Citation needed.

The fact is that you're stating that ALL the Lords of the Vale hate LF and want him dead, when I actually named you two important Vale lords who are his allies and DO want him alive. So it's just not true that killing LF would be simple for Jon and with no repercussions. Not to mention you don't address the problem I brought up of whether Jon would have the stomach to murder his guest under his own roof after that guest DID save his life and his army - regardless of his evil motivations for doing so.

If it could be proven that LF engineered Ned's death in KL - a fact that Jon and Sansa are STILL not aware of - then yes. Jon would kill LF, because he would consider it a just execution. Without that? It would seem like cold-blooded murder to Jon, to kill LF just because he is dangerous. I don't think he could bring himself to do it (he even spared Melisandre after she burned a little girl to death). If he did make up his mind to do it, I don't think he could do it well enough to get away with it without nasty repercussions. He just doesn't think like that. Sansa might want to, but feel she doesn't have the expertise to kill someone undetected and get away with it, like LF has...and she would likely feel that LF, knowing from the inside how such murders are done, would ALSO have safeguards to prevent such things from happening to him.

in the Allayne excerpts she picks up that Cobray is double dealing on LF.

[GrailKing]

13 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

That gives her nothing but a seat on the council which she got.  Her being a benefactor doesn't automatically give her special rights to influence his decisions or publicly disagree with him. 

who said special, the right to disagree is hers, the public disagreement is bad on both of them, it's on Jon to present his opinion to her and Davos before they meet the houses and once she makes her objections or offer options he gets final say since he is King, but that never happened, and in the hall of Lords Jon out ranks her, but as Lady of Winterfell she out ranks those lords she has a valid right, especially if he just threw his decision out there.

[jeansheridan]

12 hours ago, stagmania said:

Let's not pretend that Sigur Ros is recognizable in the same way as Ed Sheeran. 

Until last night I had no idea who Ed Sheeran was.  Yes, I am old, but I do know Beyonce and Taylor Swift on sight. He sang and had no lines and if that was his real hair then it looked okay.  Seeing Mark Gatiss threw me a few seasons ago.  Why is Mycroft in Essos? For  stunt casting. I think it was mild.

[FemmyV]

42 minutes ago, WindyNights said:

That actually does make her a serial killer though. Even if the guys she kills may be bad and she reasons for it, she's still embarking on a killing spree that won't let up. She's what people would call a mission-oriented serial killer.

 

In today's world, we'd put her away for life or give her the death penalty.

Even with all the Frey scalps under her belt, Arya has still probably been responsible for less deaths - directly or indirectly - than any male military character on the show. Jamie has probably killed more with his own sword, he has definitely ordered more kills than Arya completed. Rob is responsible for at least 2,000 deaths among Stark soldiers, as a sacrifice. Ned swung the axe himself a few times. Most of these impersonal, in times of war. But Arya is out of her mind? No, I really don't see it that way.

FWIW, Dany is spoken of in similar fashion. It's incredibly sexist.

Edited July 18, 2017 by FemmyV

[GrailKing]

wow 1:30 time for bed.

[Oscirus]

What are they trying to tell us here?  

7 minutes ago, FemmyV said:

Even with all the Frey scalps under her belt, Arya has still probably been responsible for less deaths - directly or indirectly - than any male military character on the show. Jamie has probably killed more with his own sword, he has definitely ordered more kills than Arya completed. Rob is responsible for at least 2,000 deaths among Stark soldiers, as a sacrifice. Ned swung the axe himself a few times. Most of these impersonal, in times of war. But Arya is out of her mind? No, I really don't see it that way.

FWIW, Dany is spoken of in similar fashion. It's incredibly sexist.

That might be comparable if  it was Brienne being talked about. But for someone who's job is not war, she sure kills alot of people. 

[Nanrad]

At best, she's a hit woman. lol

[FemmyV]

43 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

What are they trying to tell us here?  

That might be comparable if  it was Brienne being talked about. But for someone who's job is not war, she sure kills alot of people. 

Where's the law that says she had to apply for the job? ;0

[anamika]

1 hour ago, FemmyV said:

Even with all the Frey scalps under her belt, Arya has still probably been responsible for less deaths - directly or indirectly - than any male military character on the show. Jamie has probably killed more with his own sword, he has definitely ordered more kills than Arya completed. Rob is responsible for at least 2,000 deaths among Stark soldiers, as a sacrifice. Ned swung the axe himself a few times. Most of these impersonal, in times of war. But Arya is out of her mind? No, I really don't see it that way.

FWIW, Dany is spoken of in similar fashion. It's incredibly sexist.

Jon has also probably killed more men than Arya . He hanged a little boy last season. But no, Arya is the serial killer.

I actually thought that there were some nice parallels between Jon and Arya this episode. Jon quoting Ned frequently and Arya's face when the soldier mentions wanting daughters - they were closest to Ned and continue to miss him.

'The man who passes the sentences should swing the sword' - this is something they both have experience with - as Jon mentions. Punish the guilty, not the innocent. Arya refuses to kill the Frey girls or the Lannister soldiers. Just as Jon refuses to punish children for the crimes of their fathers. 

I can't wait for Arya to get North to Winterfell.

[OhOkayWhat]

1 hour ago, anamika said:

I actually thought that there were some nice parallels between Jon and Arya this episode.

I felt some parallels between the Hound and Arya. The show even included the farmer and daughter they met.

[Paradigm14]

OK,

Sansa is family. It isn't that she doesnt' have the right to say something, it's that the family needs to have a united front when facing the other families. If Sansa wants a certain level of influence with Jon, it's clear she needs to organize the meeting herself, at least the first time. She's not wrong that it would be wise to supervise the activities of the Umbers and Karstarks right now.  Catlyn would have made gentler suggestions without sounding too attached to any one, at least publicly.

Whether by making them wards who will inherit their houses when they get older and show loyalty, or by providing them with castellans or protectors of some kind a la Littlefinger, there were options to keep these children supervised and still allow their families to maintain their homes and save face. This completely lassez faire attitude isn't suitable for the situation. Allys Karstark may have been old enough to betroth, for example, and putting the father of a lesser house who she's betrothed to into the Karhold is an easy answer. They raise her up right, they get to plant their grandchild at Karhold as Lord.  She dies or gets abused, they lose all right to anything.  The good news is, at the moment, neither of these children seem likely to betray Jon. The betrayal is likely to come from Littlefinger and the Vale with a couple of small houses who don't want the Wildlings on this side of the wall. Looking forward to next episode!.

I also loved the Lannister soldiers who fed and welcomed Arya. Thankfully Ed Sheeran did a minimum of trying to act and the other two actors did very well.

Edited July 18, 2017 by Paradigm14

[darkestboy]

I liked it. A solid enough opening episode that felt set up enough in the right places.

Arya's final vengeance on the Freys was pretty satisfying to watch but I really could've done without that Ed Sheeran cameo as I imagine everyone else could've done. Hopefully she bumps those soldiers off next week though.

Sansa and Jon are going to end up falling out if they can't come together a little more. They're both right about certain things but they need to listen to each other, especially if Littlefinger tries to get between them.

Loved Tormund's appreciation of Brienne and the latter's little scene with Sansa as well.

Cersei and Jaime, there's another conflict waiting in the wings and adding Euron into the mix is going to only create more division amongst the two of them.

Zoned out of Sam's scenes, because they're usually dull. Preferred the scenes with Hound and the fire this week though.

I'm hoping Dany doesn't spend all season in Dragonstone. Very little of Tyrion in this one too and Bran didn't do much either, 8/10

[penelope79]

I liked the episode, it was a very good a set up.

 

I loved every minute of the cold opening, Arya is more awesome than ever. My take on the scene with Ed Sheeran is that Arya was ready to kill those Lannister soldiers, but then she realised they were normal, even good people (yes, I know, a rare event in GoT Universe! ) fighting "wars that weren't even theirs". And she probably changed her mind.

 

Re: Jon and Sansa, it doesn't really matter who was right or wrong in the end. But, if your brother is the King and you're both attending a council, you don't interrupt him while he's about to answer a question, and if you disagree with him you don't do that in public. Period. I agree with Jon that such behaviour undermines his authority. It's the same reason why Daenerys told Jorah and Ser Barristam Selmy to not contradict her again in public in the amazing "Dracarys" episode.

I can understand Sansa's point of view, and to a certain degree I agree with her. However, concerning Umber and Karstark, in this instance Jon explaines that if the White Walkers breach the Wall, they will find their castles first: I honestly can't see why what's left of those two families (and by the way, the heirs are children) could possibly betray the Starks again, if such event occurs. They will need all the Northern families in case they're attacked. And I'm even sure they're screwed anyway. :) In any case, Sansa is still afraid of Cersei but clearly doesn't see the WW as a real threat at the moment, while Jon can see the bigger picture because he faced them.

 

Cersei is showing once again that she can probably do everything... except ruling. Jaime was 100% right. As for Euron, I don't think Cersei's refusal to marry him is final. He made clear he wants a Queen, which is something she was already aware of and, in exchange, he will give her his fleet. She only pointed out that he's not trustworthy (and maybe I'm alone here, but I had the feeling she was overall amused by his behaviour) and he promised to win her over by giving her a "gift". I'm afraid of what this gift could be, but if Euron gives her something or someone she considers essential for her needs, she will have to marry him and I'm sure she knows that.

 

Too much of Sam's (disgusting) internship for my tastes, but I'm glad he found out about dragonglass and that he met Jorah. I can't wait to see what else he's going to find out. By the way, I love OldTown set, specially the library: it looks like a mix between the Library of Alexandria and a monastery.

 

Loved Daenerys finally arriving in Westeros! I can't wait to see her next moves.

 

Is it Sunday yet?

[Haleth]

Does anyone know if the ravens (Blackie and Bitey) will be ranking the Houses this season?

[kieyra]

7 hours ago, WindyNights said:

That actually does make her a serial killer though. Even if the guys she kills may be bad and she reasons for it, she's still embarking on a killing spree that won't let up. She's what people would call a mission-oriented serial killer.

In today's world, we'd put her away for life or give her the death penalty.

In today's world most of the cast would be in prison for murder. 

(Unless all of the boys and men get an out for being "soldiers", which I assume in many people's eyes they do.)

Applying modern-day morals and laws doesn't work too well with the show, although it certainly drives a lot of social media traffic for it. 

[screamin]

6 hours ago, Oscirus said:

She's sitting at the head table it's bad form to tell the King he's wrong in front of everybody, especially  when she has unlimited access to Jon both before and after the meeting.  From Bran Robb and Lyanna have all held similar meetings and not once has anybody at the front table openly disagreed with them, what makes Sansa so special?

 

All right, then, if it's bad form for Jon's sister to openly contradict him when he makes a decision - even if all the other lords (of which she is one, and has as much military power at her command as any of them) are happily and loudly disagreeing with Jon to his face, then maybe it would be better if he didn't make all his decisions on the spot in front of everyone without giving her a chance to give her views and answer any objections he has to them - i.e., discuss his decisions in private and allow her a chance at input, whether or not he decides to use what she says. But no, that doesn't suit you.

Quote

 

Sansa has no experience leading so why should he go over anything with her?  Should Dany do the same thing with her more experienced advisers before she makes decisions?  If Sansa wants to openly disagree with Jon then she should forgo her seat at the leadership table and sit her ass down at the other end with the other lords. I bet she won't do that.

So basically your position is that nothing Sansa could possibly say could conceivably be of any use whatsoever, - never, under any circumstances, could she possibly have an objection of importance to contribute, therefore it is totally okay for Jon to refuse to discuss his decisions with her privately AND to forbid her to object to any of them in public, to demand she either tend to her embroidery with her trap shut and let the menfolk speak, or if she doesn't like it she should walk down to a seat of lesser honor in her own home? 

Aside from the arrant dickishness of such an attitude, it would just be a stupid thing to do. Because, well...

Quote

Should Dany do the same thing with her more experienced advisers before she makes decisions?

Yes, actually? And she totally does? Did you see Dany regularly call up all the lords of Mereen to give her their input, then make a decision about them right in front of them without consulting her counselors at her side and forbidding them to give her advice about whether her decision might possibly be a bad idea, because it would look bad to be publically contradicted by her inner circle? I don't recall many meetings like that. Mainly I recall Dany much more frequently consulting with a small circle of her inner council before making a decision, not regularly brainstorming in front of all her bannermen (who all have their own conflicting agendas) and coming to a decision then and there without allowing her advisors to contribute.

Sansa knows Cersei (one of Jon's very important enemies) far better than any of the council does. She also knows Littlefinger - officially his main ally - far better than any of them does. It would simply be dumb to forgo her knowledge of these two important people who potentially could destroy Winterfell under the blanket assumption that Sansa is by definition useless and her input would always be of no value whatsoever...not to mention be a hell of a disrespectful way to treat your own damn sister.

[ae2]

As a book-reader but not a show-watcher, I used to enjoy following the GoT threads here and other places to discover insights into the story that the show reveals. I expected that when the show passed by the books that there would be more revelations than ever. Yet it seems that for most of last season and here in this episode that there is very little actually being revealed, and that the story has not moved along very far yet.

I think this may be partially because everything happening in the show was sort of expected and predicted already (Dany landing in Westeros, Arya returning, Jon & Sansa meeting up). And partially because we haven't had years to pick apart every little detail like we've had with the books.

But it still seems as if the show is moving at a snail's pace when there's so much story left to be told in so few episodes, and that the story we're seeing isn't quite as detailed and as deep as it once was.  At least that's my perception from reading about the show, and I'm curious if show-watchers feel this way too.

Oh, and I'd love to find a blog or a podcast that focuses primarily on comparing specific episodes of the show to the book, and analyzes the impact it might have on the story. I've done some searching and have yet to find one that goes into this in much depth.

[benteen]

I could take Sansa's judgment more seriously if she didn't inexplicably conceal important information like she did last season about the Vale army and stopped being so damn vague in her warnings.  Tell Jon that she thinks Cersei will likely try to send an assassin after him.

Edited July 18, 2017 by benteen

[kieyra]

29 minutes ago, ae2 said:

As a book-reader but not a show-watcher, I used to enjoy following the GoT threads here and other places to discover insights into the story that the show reveals. I expected that when the show passed by the books that there would be more revelations than ever. Yet it seems that for most of last season and here in this episode that there is very little actually being revealed, and that the story has not moved along very far yet.

I think this may be partially because everything happening in the show was sort of expected and predicted already (Dany landing in Westeros, Arya returning, Jon & Sansa meeting up). And partially because we haven't had years to pick apart every little detail like we've had with the books.

But it still seems as if the show is moving at a snail's pace when there's so much story left to be told in so few episodes, and that the story we're seeing isn't quite as detailed and as deep as it once was.  At least that's my perception from reading about the show, and I'm curious if show-watchers feel this way too.

Oh, and I'd love to find a blog or a podcast that focuses primarily on comparing specific episodes of the show to the book, and analyzes the impact it might have on the story. I've done some searching and have yet to find one that goes into this in much depth.

If nothing else, your point is proven by eleven pages of Sansa v Jon. :)

[screamin]

16 minutes ago, benteen said:

I could take Sansa's judgment more seriously if she didn't inexplicably conceal important information like she did last season about the Vale army and stopped being so damn vague in her warnings.  Tell Jon that she thinks Cersei will likely try to send an assassin after him.

You think Sansa knows specifics about assassination plans that she's deliberately concealing from Jon? IMO, she knew - and said - only what was public knowledge - that Cersei has managed to murder everyone who's stood in her way. And it IS public knowledge. Her murder of King Bob was proclaimed all over the countryside via raven by Stannis...and the details of the murder were later confessed by her accomplice and publicized by her trial, if there was any doubt about it. And IMO, they both DO know about her coup at KL, and her murder of the High Sparrow, the lord of Highgarden, Margaery, and everyone else in the Sept, and her taking of the Iron Throne. We know this because we saw them both receive a ravenmail from Cersei styling herself the queen, and neither batted an eye in surprise. They knew already. It's not surprising...the destruction of the High Sept is the kind of HOLY SHIT! news that goes out on raven the moment it happens. What secret knowledge do you think Sansa has that she is concealing from Jon?

[Hana Chan]

37 minutes ago, benteen said:

I could take Sansa's judgment more seriously if she didn't inexplicably conceal important information like she did last season about the Vale army and stopped being so damn vague in her warnings.  Tell Jon that she thinks Cersei will likely try to send an assassin after him.

Both of them have big blind spots that if they actually communicated in a constructive manner would actually be beneficial to one another. Jon sees the very big picture and he's right that the war that they need to really concern themselves with is going to come north of the Wall. But he can't totally ignore what's happening in the south. Sansa is totally fixated on Cersi, who rightfully can't be discounted as a threat, and has no real understanding or appreciation of what Jon is really worried about. Jon is trying to tell her, but it's not getting through in a meaningful way.

Jon sees the forest, while Sansa is totally focused on one or two trees. If Sansa wants to drive home that Cersi is a real threat to Jon, then she needs to speak very plainly about what she's seen Cersi do. Jon needs concrete information. Otherwise he's not totally wrong to put his attention on the Night King and that is the biggest director of his actions as KITN.

[stagmania]

7 hours ago, jeansheridan said:

Until last night I had no idea who Ed Sheeran was.  Yes, I am old, but I do know Beyonce and Taylor Swift on sight. He sang and had no lines and if that was his real hair then it looked okay.  Seeing Mark Gatiss threw me a few seasons ago.  Why is Mycroft in Essos? For  stunt casting. I think it was mild.

Ed Sheeran is a hugely successful international popstar. I'm really happy for anyone who doesn't know who he is (seriously), but MANY people do and it pulled them out of the episode. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[FnkyChkn34]

8 hours ago, FemmyV said:

Even with all the Frey scalps under her belt, Arya has still probably been responsible for less deaths - directly or indirectly - than any male military character on the show. Jamie has probably killed more with his own sword, he has definitely ordered more kills than Arya completed. Rob is responsible for at least 2,000 deaths among Stark soldiers, as a sacrifice. Ned swung the axe himself a few times. Most of these impersonal, in times of war. But Arya is out of her mind? No, I really don't see it that way.

FWIW, Dany is spoken of in similar fashion. It's incredibly sexist.

There's your reason why it's different, in bold.  Jaime and Robb and even Ned all did things during a time of war, and sometimes at the order of someone else (at least in Jaime's case).  Arya is acting alone as a vigilante.  (As a comparison, would we call a modern day member of the military a murderer, or someone who was just doing their job during time of conflict?  An army lieutenant, for example, is just doing their job.  Is Arya in an army?)

[Hana Chan]

1 hour ago, screamin said:

Sansa knows Cersei (one of Jon's very important enemies) far better than any of the council does. She also knows Littlefinger - officially his main ally - far better than any of them does. It would simply be dumb to forgo her knowledge of these two important people who potentially could destroy Winterfell under the blanket assumption that Sansa is by definition useless and her input would always be of no value whatsoever...not to mention be a hell of a disrespectful way to treat your own damn sister.

Again, if she recognizes them for the threats that they are, then she needs to explain to Jon very clearly why he can't ignore them. And I haven't heard her say a single thing to Jon about Littlefinger, against him or in his favor.  I'm not discounting Sansa's perspective because she's right - Jon can't and shouldn't ignore what's happening in Kings Landing or get lulled into a false sense of security by distance. But she's also got to recognize that he does know a bit about what he's talking about when it comes to the military. It would be highly difficult for the Lannister army to make its way north with the weather turning and their forces not accustomed to dealing with winter weather condition. 

Neither of them are completely correct, though I think that Jon is a bit closer in that he is seeing where their biggest and possibly most immediate concern must be. The northern defense line must be fortified (hence his decision to show mercy on the Karstarks and Umbers, whose lands are directly south of the Wall) and sending the Wildings to man one of the abandoned castles at the Wall). Jon knows that Littlefinger can't really be trusted, as he was the one who gave Sansa to the Boltons, but he doesn't know what the man has done and is willing to do for his own power. Sansa does and the longer she speaks in veiled generalities, the more she undercuts the validity of her arguements.

[FnkyChkn34]

10 hours ago, Colorful Mess said:

I agree that that's his mission, but to me, it's boring to watch characters do things that someone else told them to do, so that someone can execute the next bullet point of the plot. That's why I think some folks found the episode tedious at this stage. Plus, what he learned so far isn't really even that revelatory, because he already knew that Dragonstone had glass there. Similarly, Bran - instead of a living human with thoughts and feelings we just get a camera on the scary stuff. Why do other shows have characters that are real people first and not just plot generators? I've often seen critiques that the show is too on the nose which suggests that the writers seem to care about plot above all else. Am I'm watching a powerpoint outline of GRRM's story, or a story about real people? I don't blame the writers completely for this because they are adapting the endgame on their own, but they seem to take artistic licence when they choose, so I guess it would be nice to see more scenes like with the Hound and the Brotherhood (good character arc, character dictates the plot instead of other way around, interesting because you don't know what they're up to, and storyline is very open ended).

I see your point, but I guess I have to still respectfully disagree - because that's the way some shows and plots have to work.  It's just a fictional television show (based on books) afterall.  And for example, the part I bolded, it's a show about warring kingdoms; so of course some characters are leaders and give orders, and some characters are soldiers and follow orders.  Sam is a soldier tasked with becoming educated, but that doesn't make his mission any less important.  Were his scenes a bit boring?  Sure.  But I can't just discard him.  He had his character moments in previous seasons. 

[Tikichick]

13 hours ago, Nanrad said:

This isn no shade towards Sansa, but despite arya being a mass murderer (shrugs), Sansa comes off as the colder one. Aryas murders fueled by revenge and we see glimpses of her humanity still intact. I can't recall the scene accurately, but she talked about her brother as if he was some random (impending) death. I think the most emotion we see from her is when her trauma is brought up and when she returned to winterfell.

Sansa has a reason to be cold tho.

Sansa has good reason to be seen as keeping her own counsel, keeping a wall up.

Cersei, Joffrey,Tywin, Tyrion, Littlefinger, Lysa, Roose, Ramsey, Varys, Marjorie, Olenna, Brienne.  Just a small list of names of those who Sansa either learned to be very guarded with, or began her relationship with in a very guarded manner.

We already know that as far as Sansa is concerned, "nobody can protect anybody".  I'll forgive a gal for being aloof.

[Tikichick]

11 hours ago, stillshimpy said:

And just like that, my dream of Cersei being killed by Joffrey, or Tywin, or Tommin, or Myrcella (whatever her name was) was born.  

I would love it if the end for Cersei is being fucked with by everyone she claims she loved only to be backed across a room by a March of dead Starks, accusing her of her crimes, driving Cersei absolutely batshit before killing her as Arya Stark.   I want the parade of the dead to come for Cersei.  

 

Small problem of the Mountainstein and everything but I'm betting on the Hound being the one to take him the fuck out at long last.  

 

Not really speculation, by the way, just fond, fond wishes.  I love Lena Headey but Cersei needs a hell of a death scene and sure, I remember the hand round her throat and everything, but here's hoping Maggie had a blind spot.  If anyone has earned the right to kill Cersei, it's a Stark.  

Very similar thoughts here, except you left off a very important name, THE name from my list -- Tyrion!   Fits the prophecy also.   I wonder if Euron's capable of getting him there as a gift to Cersei via his trusty fleet right about the time Arya finally arrives in King's Landing?  Despite being away from King's Landing & never really spending much time in Cersei's orbit anyway, Arya knew Tywin well and has no doubt gleaned much of the Lannister family dynamics in all this time from major events that have transpired.  She may well understand that for Cersei being done in by "Tyrion" would be very fitting.

There has never been a doubt in my mind that the end for the Mountain comes courtesy of his baby bro.

[anamika]

36 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

We already know that as far as Sansa is concerned, "nobody can protect anybody". 

Which is such an idiotic notion to have for someone who is only standing in WF because of the long list of people who protected her ass -  Hound, LF, Tyrion, Theon, Brienne, Pod, Jon etc. Nonsensical statements like this is why she sounds like an utter moron who should not be taken seriously.  She even criticizes Ned for not protecting her! After she goes behind his back and tattles to Cersei. Shut the fuck up. He confessed to treason and lost his head to protect her worthless ass. Ugh! She's an entitled, condescending, whiny snob who thinks she knows better than everyone and is an ungrateful daughter to boot.

Man, her criticism of Ned pissed me off so much. In the books, Ned's POV showed us how much he loved his daughters and how much he tried to protect them. He was just a good man stuck in an impossible situation. Of course, 'Lets punish children for the sins of the father' Sansa Stark would never understand or appreciate a man like Ned. I wish Jon and Arya reunite soon and reminisce about him!

Ozzy man posted his review:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=apUW8LdYSaQ

And I thought he made a nice point about this episode being about home. Dany finally comes home after all these years, Bran is on his way home,  Jon refuses to take away the homes of the Karstark and Umber children and the Hound revisits the home of his victims.

His description of the Jon-Sansa spat is also rather hilarious. I can see it as SJW (Jon) Vs the Alt-right (Sansa) with Davos missing his food.

Edited July 18, 2017 by anamika

[FnkyChkn34]

6 minutes ago, doram said:

Thank you for saying this! Dany's desire to (re)claim the Iron Throne is constantly written as her being entitled and showing signs of madness, in a way that no other of the contenders is described. 

But let's not forget that Dany literally has "madness" run in her family.  I don't characterize her that way, and I see her as equal to any other male contender, but if someone else does it could be because of her family history - not just because she's a woman.  

[Tikichick]

11 hours ago, Advance35 said:

Also isn't Sansa in a dicey place considering the role she played in everything that went on in the Vale.  I mean she did help LF cover up the murder of Lysa Arryn, crazy as she was.  The Lords Declarant gave her a chance to out LF but she didn't know or trust them so she stuck with the devil she knew, much to her current regret.  If her role in the Lysa's murder were to come out, it could make things awkward around Winterfell.

I agree with those that say Jon and Sansa are the produce of their experiences and I ultimately think Jon is going to be the hero of all this.  I just don't think Sansa owes him blind obedience.  I'll even go so far as to say, on certain levels, I think Jon might be a better person then Sansa.  And by that I mean, I think he's more likely to feel for others and is more susceptible to compassion whereas, I don't think Sansa by instinct feels for anyone anymore.  And I don't think she wants too.   She's not Cersei or Ramsay, but I think she does view compassion and mercy as weakness and folly.

Jon's seen and experienced horrible things as well but he's also seen heartfelt heroism and altruism from surprising places.  I think this allows him some optimism where people are concerned and to be fair, he's been proven right in some instances.  There have been surprising heroes among the Wildings.  The Nights Watch is regarded as being made up of the down and outs of society, the undesirables for the most part, yet we've met Grenn, Pyp, Edd and Sam.

The closest Sansa came to decent people in Kings Landing were Margaery and Shae, and both disregarded any kind of connection they may have felt for Sansa when it became convenient to do so.  And to be fair again, it was a 2 way street.  During her testimony in The Vale after Lyssa's murder, she stressed that she had "no friends in Kings Landing" and I think she mean't it.  I  think she would visit horror on ANYONE else before she'd let herself suffer it.   A complicated outlook, but watching her story, I think it's an understandable one.

Have to disagree.  I think the Sansa who headed off to King's Landing with giddy dreams of marrying Joffrey and becoming queen was colder and less caring of others than the one who exists now.  The one who has survived to this point looks back to the point where we met her and regrets not valuing the people and the home she had then for all it truly was.  She sees Jon as truly her loving brother now.  She doesn't look down on Arya's refusal to act like "a lady".  Winterfell the way it was now seems idyllic to her, versus the hideousness she lived in the Red Keep, constantly wondering if/when Joffrey would snap.  Sansa at the start would have thought marriage to Tyrion would have been the worst fate ever.  She came to realize Tyrion was a dream husband versus the prospect of Joffrey -- and absolutely versus the nightmare of Ramsey.  Sansa even risked showing Tyrion a public kindness at Joffrey's wedding.

She's definitely learned a lot about people along the way, and what's really "good" in them.

[SeanC]

9 minutes ago, anamika said:

After she goes behind his back and tattles to Cersei.

That didn't happen in the show.

Quote

He confessed to treason and lost his head to protect her worthless ass. 

She doesn't know that.

Quote

Man, her criticism of Ned pissed me off so much, especially as a book reader.

She's giving voice to the writers there, though.  That's always been the show's stance.

[Hana Chan]

10 minutes ago, doram said:

Sansa was not just any other Lord in that meeting room. She was a Stark, Jon's sister. She was sitting by his side for a reason. They are, at all times, supposed to present a united front because despite the "election" of Jon as King in the North - that title is hers by rights. Everything about their connection is tenuous.  The moment Sansa stops supporting Jon publicly is the moment that connection fractures, and the last thing the North needs is a civil war.

And people will support Sansa. Not because she's popular or they particularly want her to be Queen but simply because of what benefits they fill they will get from currying favor with a contender. There are those who agreed with what she said about giving away Karhold etc to other lords - who are eyeing that real estate and will support her with the hope of getting it. There are those who privately feel that Jon shouldn't be King as a bastard and that it sets a dangerous precedent, etc.

The northern titles aren't Sansa's by right. They'd actually be Bran's as the eldest living male heir. I get that in her mind she doesn't know that Bran is still alive and sees herself as the true heir to Winterfell, but as viewers we know that this is not the case. Even handicapped, Bran would have the first rights as heir.

And in all honesty, how much support Sansa would get is certainly questionable given that she was expecting a wave of support before the battle with the Boltons because she was Ned Stark's daughter. Instead she had house after house turn down their requests and Lady Mormount mocking her to her face. Like it or not, the fact that she had been married off to both the Lannister and the Bolton families will make her suspect in some people's minds. 

In a time of war, the houses are likely to be very reluctant to give their allegiance to someone who is not a warrior herself and has no experience in leading armies. Would she find some supporters? Sure, but likely not enough to make her a serious rival to Jon and probably just enough to split the North in a bitter civil war. And if she doesn't recognize Littlefinger's manipulations for what they are and lets him push her into opposing Jon for her own elevation, then she is as foolish as she was when we first met her.

Again, this is not to say that she doesn't have valuable contributions to make if she can figure out how to do so in a constructive manner. No leader, however open minded, is going to stand for having their final decisions contradicted publically. She's got a lot of influence over Jon as his "sister" but for someone who's supposed to be so politically astute, she really has no clue how to exercise that influence in a constructive manner. 

[SeanC]

11 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

But let's not forget that Dany literally has "madness" run in her family.  I don't characterize her that way, and I see her as equal to any other male contender, but if someone else does it could be because of her family history - not just because she's a woman.  

It's a bit of both, I'd say.  The spectre of Aerys' madness is a deliberate theme in her story, so its on one level understandable that it comes up.  But Jon, who is also of Targaryen ancestry, never gets that kind of speculation.

[FnkyChkn34]

1 minute ago, SeanC said:

It's a bit of both, I'd say.  The spectre of Aerys' madness is a deliberate theme in her story, so its on one level understandable that it comes up.  But Jon, who is also of Targaryen ancestry, never gets that kind of speculation.

But until just last season, the audience was supposed to think that Jon is a Stark, not a Targaryan.  I don't see that as a fair comparison because it wasn't confirmed that he is a Targaryan.  Now that we know he is, maybe people will start to view him differently (or he'll be written differently).  

[SeanC]

Just now, FnkyChkn34 said:

But until just last season, the audience was supposed to think that Jon is a Stark, not a Targaryan.  I don't see that as a fair comparison because it wasn't confirmed that he is a Targaryan.  Now that we know he is, maybe people will start to view him differently (or he'll be written differently).  

Jon being part Targaryen has been an article of faith in most of the book fandom for 20 years, at least, and he's never gotten that kind of reaction.

[Nanrad]

9 hours ago, GrailKing said:

She was stating a fact to Jon: Rickon is an obstacle to Ramsey legitimacy  he's the son of Neds which is above Jon a bastard or Sansa herself a girl.

This is an accurate statement fueled by Shaggy's head tossed to the ground.

You must have totally bypassed her quiet rage when she told Ramsey he's dying on the morrow sleep well, the sadness when she saw Jon fall for the trap she wasn't on the battlefield so she didn't see Rickon, if she had she tell Jon the truth stay put tough decision but the correct one; or the rage in her voice when she asked Jon where Ramsy was.

If people think she's cold, well she's a Stark of the past as Bran described to Osha, not Ned's version, that version got her father,Brother and Mother killed ( and it was influenced by Ned fostering with Jon Arryn ), that's not happening anymore while she lives. She won't be Cersei, more QOT.

 

45 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

Sansa has good reason to be seen as keeping her own counsel, keeping a wall up.

Cersei, Joffrey,Tywin, Tyrion, Littlefinger, Lysa, Roose, Ramsey, Varys, Marjorie, Olenna, Brienne.  Just a small list of names of those who Sansa either learned to be very guarded with, or began her relationship with in a very guarded manner.

We already know that as far as Sansa is concerned, "nobody can protect anybody".  I'll forgive a gal for being aloof.

I literally said in my last line that she has a reason to be cold. She truly does. She's suffered abuses, watched her father get killed, and so forth. For all of the talk about how much of a killer arya is and that she has lost her humanity, she shows more feeling than Sansa, which I believe was the point I was making. Many always want to bring up arya to say, "see, look, arya is truly the cold one--she kills people." 

Despite this, you see more moments of humanity from her. You see that she couldn't give up who she was and her connections to the past. That she cares about what happens to innocent people. Does this mean that Sansa doesn't care? No, I wouldn't say that. 

But, I think Sansa living her fantasy was the worst wake up call received between the two girls. She was used to the songs and didn't know why it truly was like to be a princess/queen. No real agency. It wasn't like her parents marriage. And things progressively got worse as time went on.

so, again, I can understand why she's cold and I believe it's with reason.

[FnkyChkn34]

16 minutes ago, SeanC said:

Jon being part Targaryen has been an article of faith in most of the book fandom for 20 years, at least, and he's never gotten that kind of reaction.

He's also described as being a Stark, looking like a Stark, mannerisms and acting like a Stark, etc.  (And, I understand we're in the "book talk" forum for the show, but we are still ultimately talking about the audience's reaction to the character on the TV screen, are we not?)

Edited July 18, 2017 by FnkyChkn34
I can't type.