S03.E21: Heroes Rise: Destiny Calling / S03.E22: Heroes Rise: HeavyDirtySoul

[jhlipton]

Dark Jim is just as boring as as Regular Jim.  The virus is whispering "Killer. Killer".  But all it does is make him broodier than ever.

20 hours ago, HoodlumSheep said:

I knew Fish would eventually die for real, but she deserved to go out like a champ rather than stabbed by a virus jim. It was lackluster.

Fish was killed by PLOT!!!! as there was no reason for her to be standing next to Jim.

9 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

If you love a good bromance then you can't do better then this show.  Jim/Bullock,  Nygma/Penguin  and Alfred/Bruce were all done really well.

if you like a good female character then this isn't really the show for you.

I'm hoping for a good sismance with Tabby and Catty.

Edited June 6, 2017 by jhlipton

[paigow]

Barnes escaped custody and is "in the wind" - so odds are he remains uncured...Viral Jim easily killed multiple LOS / LOA members...which calls into question the wisdom of RAG - empowering the Gotham populace beyond the capabilities of his minions.... 

[Danielg342]

Part of me wonders if Jim shouldn't have cured himself, finding he's actually able to manage it. Jim needing to resist his "urges" could be fun.

[Biggie B]

I abhor Barbara and was ECSTATIC that she was electrocuted. The smoke coming out of her head was an excellent added touch. I do so hope she is never seen again. She is boring and one-dimensional. All she does is sneer or shout or make threats. Every single scene is the same with her - the sarcastic remarks, the scowl, the narrowed eyes and curled lip. She's about as deep as a puddle. No nuances, no layers, no nothing. Goodbye and good riddance, and yes, "NOW we can move forward."

Loved Alfred all the way through. He's amazing in his steadfast loyalty to Bruce, when so many other characters are completely untrustworthy and constantly realign themselves with the highest bidder of the moment.

I've mentioned before that Fish as a character grew on me as time went by. I think the turning point was when she took out her own eye! I was sorry to see her go, but I thought Oswald's reaction was well done and heartfelt.

Selena - I like her pairing up with Tabitha and am happy to see how it goes. 

Don't care about Lee, never really have. Perhaps she'll come back but I hope not. I think she ran her course.

I'm glad Oswald "won" this round of the Penguin-Riddler matchup but surely the tables will turn at some point next season.

Butch - I'm not familiar with the Cyrus Gold/Solomon Grundy character and knew nothing about him until I Googled it, so I have no opinion. I was glad he said what he said to Barbara about Tabitha.

Harvey's always great and yes, he should be used more. I love his earthiness and how disheveled he is. Sometimes I don't think Jim deserves his friendship.

[Dobian]

Harvey comes through in the clutch!

So Butch is Cyrus Gold?  Huh?

BABS, NOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!

Selina already a natural with the whip.

Riddler on ice...for now.

Batman is born!

Looking forward to next season.

Edited June 7, 2017 by Dobian

[Horsesrunwild]

6 hours ago, Kathemy said:

Doux Reviews: Destiny Calling : HeavyDirtySoul

To me you are really hard to please. I in fact thought it was fantastic.

[Kathemy]

I have written many glowing reviews of this show. 

[Dame sans merci]

12 hours ago, Kathemy said:

Doux Reviews: Destiny Calling : HeavyDirtySoul

Seeing it all written down like that really make me realise that things obviously go seriously awry on this show between the planning and broadcast stages.

What's even odder is that various cast members have spoken before about not knowing what was coming up for them until they actually read the scripts, so...at what stage in the process are these massive alterations happening?

Edited June 7, 2017 by Blackcanary

[Kostgard]

It really does feel like something happened between when they filmed the episode (In March, I think?) and by the time it got to air. The news obviously hadn't trickled down to the cast members. If there was any scene film that screamed "Here's Harley!" it was clearly edited out.

I really wonder if someone at DC decided that they wanted to keep Harley in the movies only. They control which characters can appear and where, and things that happen on the show has to get their approval (RLT mentioned this in relation to some people freaking out that Penguin falling in love with a dude was "not canon" and Gotham was just running wild out on their own - he was all, "Hey, DC signed off on it. They sign off on everything"). There is that "Gotham City Sirens" movie in the works that will feature Harley, and maybe DC just wanted the Harley focus there (the movie will apparently also feature Cat Woman and Poison Ivy, but it could be Gotham snagged those characters and started using them before the planning of the movie really took off). I strongly suspect this is why no one on the show calls Jerome the Joker. DC may want to keep "The Joker" in the movie world only.

At the end of the day, I'm not mad about it and think this is probably the better move, regardless of the reason. Yeah, it leads to some sloppiness when they change tracks at the last minute, but this show is already loaded with characters and some of them have to disappear for episodes at a time because there simply isn't enough room or they don't know what to do with them. One thing I liked about the finale is that it gave a lot of the characters (many of whom had basically been spinning their wheels) a focus or simplified things/went back to basics for others. Nothing made me happier than seeing Jim and Harvey be all, "Hey, let's just be detectives for a while." Except for maybe seeing Oswald going back to basics (just smarter and stronger this time) and start rebuilding his empire and seeing Selina get some focus by teaming up with Tabs and straight up saying that she wanted something more.

[moonshine71]

On 6/5/2017 at 11:07 PM, Artsda said:

 

Lee was better evil and she chose to take the virus so why does she get to be cured and leave town? It wasn't done to her against her will.

Batman!

Did she commit any crimes other than kidnapping/burying Jim? He's not going to press charges.

[Snookums]

Quote

Fish was the only confirmed fatality, right? We've gotten to the point where death is no big thing here

Especially since Gotham has a friggin' Lazurus Pit in its basement, apparently! How long has that been there? The Arrow cast should be good and pissed: "We have to haul our asses to Nadar Parbat and Gotham just gets a personal do over jacuzzi? GET MY AGENT ON THE PHONE." 

Well, that ending was a lot of business around a lot of nothing. I love how twenty four hours after a mass rampage/destruction orgy Gotham is completely and totally back to normal like nothing happened! Granted, this IS Gotham so that pretty much describes a typical Tuesday night, but still. Isn't anybody demanding an investigation or threatening to sue or asking what happened to that one cop who shot like fifteen of his brethren or anything? I'm all for Forgive and Forget but there's such a thing as making virtue vice by taking it too far, ya know? (Also enjoyed everybody in town realizing they can just leave. Like, get on a train and LEAVE this insanity whirlwind!)

Welp, bye, Lee. See ya, wouldn't wanna be ya. Must have been fun wearing that Wasted Opportunity tee-shirt all season long, huh? Thank God you had great hair in your last shot because the rest of this story was a mix of frustration and weariness. Why have her threaten Babs and have it come to nothing? Why go on and on and on about you and Jim's great luuurve and then bail, again? Why? 

Jim Gordon, the dummy, looked like a kid on mile five hundred of a seven hundred mile car trip, just wearily hauling along and occasionally virusing out but mostly thinking that this is it for him and dating.  Although, I must admit, him looking at Tetch, saying "we don't need all of him" and draining off a pint or two of blood was impressively dark and Ben played it really well. He gets all this screen time, all these setups to let loose, and the showrunners don't ever let him off the leash.

Was thrilled to see young Bruce in his embryo Bat form, not the least because that hideous wad of sentient oatmeal he was wearing was finally gone. I'm surprised Selena didn't snark him out over his junior Republican Thanksgiving day buffet outfit.  Maybe she can steal it, put it on a practice dummy and shred it with her new whip skills. 

Ed and Oswald; long may they scrap! But maybe drop the love-angst angle. At some point their relationship has to evolve to fit the new personas each is so desperately striving for. 

One point among many that drove me nuts: how everybody conveniently "hears" about whatever piece of news is needed to shove them into the next relevant bit of plot. At least Barbara stated how she knew where the exchange was taking place: She bribes cops and Jim Gordon never keeps his growl down. But Ed's "sources?" Since when does he have a network of informants? What does he pay them with? Isn't his entire deal the Lone Wolf Genius routine? 

Even worse was Selena showing up at the hospital saying she heard about Alfred? From who? Who told her? Why would they tell her? She doesn't have a cell phone, nor is she on social media, if there is such a thing in this town. It's not like Ghul's cadre of henchmen was posting pictures on Facebook. That line was purely to justify her showing up and Bruce driving her away so she'd go to the bar and get hooked up with Tabitha, and it made no sense.

Edited June 8, 2017 by Snookums

[darkestboy]

Easily the best finale we've had so far. Less for the virus stuff, which seemed to pale a little in the second half and more for the various character dynamics that were gripping to watch.

Ras Al Ghul was given a nice introduction and I enjoyed his interactions with Bruce and Alfred, so I can't wait to see more of him next season.

Alfred being stabbed shocked me but I wasn't expecting him to die and was glad when he didn't. As for that final scene with Bruce, it did feel very Year One to be honest. Wasn't expecting it but loved it.

Similarly, Selina seems to be getting closer to her own future self as well. The team up with her and Tabitha could be very interesting to watch next season.

Is Barbara really dead? Same for Fish too, who could've gotten a more memorable death. Butch being Solomon Grundy is a good enough twist.

Nice moments with Strange, Firefly, Freeze, Ivy and Bullock in both episodes. Could've done with more of Lucius too.

Loved all the Oswald/Nygma scenes and seeing the latter getting outsmarted was a particular highlight as well. Tetch seemed like a deer lost in the headlights when surrounded by all the other characters. 

I guess Barnes was cured off screen then, yeah?

Overall a strong ending to a great season, 8/10

[ReidFan]

can someone help a girl out? I had to work that night and my DVR #*$()^@#$ed up.... I got as far as Dr Bashir telling Bruce to stab Alfred......and the recording stopped.

what happened thereafter?

[Chaos Theory]

I think I might be done with this show.  The only character I really liked was Barbara.  And maybe Nygma.

i don't understand why everyone loves  Harvey so much.  He is funny but I can take him or leave him.

Jim is an annoying bore.  I actually liked Dark Lee so I hated Jim for curing her.  Hated him!!!!!!

Who knows if I mean it.  There may be nothing else to watch but honestly.....I think I am kinda done. 

[Kostgard]

20 minutes ago, ReidFan said:

can someone help a girl out? I had to work that night and my DVR #*$()^@#$ed up.... I got as far as Dr Bashir telling Bruce to stab Alfred......and the recording stopped.

what happened thereafter?

Are you looking for what happened at the end of that episode or for the remainder of the two-parter? Because that episode ends with Bruce actually stabbing Alfred. Then a whole lot of other stuff happens in the second hour.

I really wish that they had killed off Barnes, because the cure for the virus in the finale just kinda kills any future momentum for him. If he does return, will the give him the cure? Then what? If they don't cure him, why not? Seriously - load up a dart gun with the cure and just nail him with it. I currently hope he's all feral and running around the woods declaring squirrels and raccoons "GUILTY" and living off of tree bark and ants.

I ran across a YouTube review of the finale that pointed out something interesting - the reviewer felt that the reason why Jim is so boring and it's hard to get invested in him is simply because Ben McKenzie has been miscast in the role. And... I think that might be correct. That isn't to say he's doing a bad job, he's just not right for the role. Casting is not necessarily just grabbing the most talented actors, but marrying the right actor to the right part. They absolutely did that with RLT/Oswald, to give an example of doing casting right. Oswald isn't working so well just because RLT has talent, but because it was a very good match. If they had cast him as Jim (for example), it probably would have been a disaster. Of course, the writing isn't doing Ben/Jim any favors most of the time (like sticking him in the drudgery that was the Jim/Lee relationship this season), but calling it a miscast may explain why Jim just never fully clicks for me and why I'm rarely on board with him the way I easily am with so many of the other characters. 

[amass]

Nygma's ringtone on his cellphone was the Riddler's theme - never noticed that before - nice touch!

[ReidFan]

second hour?!!

omg *bangs head on keyboard*

DVR, I officially hate you!!!! You MISSED the whole second hour. Good lord, I'm gonna have to find the entire episode obviously

argh!

[Kostgard]

35 minutes ago, ReidFan said:

second hour?!!

omg *bangs head on keyboard*

DVR, I officially hate you!!!! You MISSED the whole second hour. Good lord, I'm gonna have to find the entire episode obviously

argh!

Yep - and the second episode is really where most of the action lies.

It's up on Fox's website or Hulu if you have it.

[ReidFan]

I'm in Canada.....but CTV probably has it too then :)

[Danielg342]

21 hours ago, Kostgard said:

I ran across a YouTube review of the finale that pointed out something interesting - the reviewer felt that the reason why Jim is so boring and it's hard to get invested in him is simply because Ben McKenzie has been miscast in the role.

I'm not sure I would agree. If there was any doubt that Ben McKenzie couldn't play "dark", it should be dispelled by the fact McKenzie was Ryan Atwood, who was the exact opposite of Jim Gordon. Gordon was supposed to be the moralist with the dark side, while Atwood was the tough kid with a heart.

Really, I think McKenzie should be knocking it out of the park, and I think, largely, he has. He still commands attention when he enters a scene- it's only when the scene unfolds that I lose that attention.

Gordon failed because I believe the writers simply didn't know what to do with him after Galavan, handing Gordon a love story that the character is just not built for. It really does feel like his story "ended" when he shot Galavan at the docks, because that was the precise moment the moralist was no more and Gordon truly entered "the dark side". After that, the character had nothing left to do- well, I suppose Gordon could have gone completely evil like Oswald, but it wouldn't fit his character and his eventual character progression, so the writers were stuck.

I think at this stage the writers should have just let Oswald, Bruce and maybe even Bullock take over and let Jim be in a support role until they figured out what to do with Jim next (I say he should have slummed at Wayne Manor until the Court of Owls showed up and then "detective Jim" should go back into action).

They never should have tried a love story with Jim because then, I'll agree, Ben McKenzie just isn't good at that role. I know McKenzie and Morena Baccarin are married in real life, but McKenzie just doesn't come across as a romancer, and I'm just not sure how much on-screen chemistry McKenzie and Baccarin had anyway. For the Gordon-Mario-Lee love triangle to really work, Gordon needed to be "vulnerable" and I don't think Gordon- or McKenzie for that matter- can pull off "vulnerable".

Edited June 9, 2017 by Danielg342

[paigow]

On 6/8/2017 at 2:38 AM, Snookums said:

One point among many that drove me nuts: how everybody conveniently "hears" about whatever piece of news is needed to shove them into the next relevant bit of plot.

People speculate about the "real" location of Gotham...my theory is that Gotham is in Westeros... full of spies working for Cersei, Littlefinger & Varys

[Kostgard]

2 hours ago, Danielg342 said:

I'm not sure I would agree. If there was any doubt that Ben McKenzie couldn't play "dark", it should be dispelled by the fact McKenzie was Ryan Atwood, who was the exact opposite of Jim Gordon. Gordon was supposed to be the moralist with the dark side, while Atwood was the tough kid with a heart.

Really, I think McKenzie should be knocking it out of the park, and I think, largely, he has. He still commands attention when he enters a scene- it's only when the scene unfolds that I lose that attention.

Gordon failed because I believe the writers simply didn't know what to do with him after Galavan, handing Gordon a love story that the character is just not built for. It really does feel like his story "ended" when he shot Galavan at the docks, because that was the precise moment the moralist was no more and Gordon truly entered "the dark side". After that, the character had nothing left to do- well, I suppose Gordon could have gone completely evil like Oswald, but it wouldn't fit his character and his eventual character progression, so the writers were stuck.

I think at this stage the writers should have just let Oswald, Bruce and maybe even Bullock take over and let Jim be in a support role until they figured out what to do with Jim next (I say he should have slummed at Wayne Manor until the Court of Owls showed up and then "detective Jim" should go back into action).

They never should have tried a love story with Jim because then, I'll agree, Ben McKenzie just isn't good at that role. I know McKenzie and Morena Baccarin are married in real life, but McKenzie just doesn't come across as a romancer, and I'm just not sure how much on-screen chemistry McKenzie and Baccarin had anyway. For the Gordon-Mario-Lee love triangle to really work, Gordon needed to be "vulnerable" and I don't think Gordon- or McKenzie for that matter- can pull off "vulnerable".

I don't really feel that any of this is McKenzie's fault, and I do think that the majority of the problem is that the writing isn't doing him any favors. It's just that when you've got the right actor in a role that fits him/her like a second skin, he/she can transcend the weak writing. BM has his presence and charisma as an actor that helps him, but I don't think he's ever really been able to shake off the shackles of the writing the way some of the others on the show have. Just my opinion, of course.

I agree that this character isn't really structured for love stories. I think he's fine dating when it is nothing serious - I was fine with Valerie Vale and when he and Lee first started dating. But the stuff with Lee for most of season three was just a drag. And in the finale I wasn't moved at all by his desire to save Lee. I just didn't care. 

I agree in your hope that Jim will take on a smaller role. Oswald is already pretty much the "villain lead" of the show, so he's fine where he's at (notice he's one of the few cast members who never sits out an episode, even when he's "dead"), but I do think that now Bruce is becoming a vigilante and well on his way to Batman, he should move into more of the central "hero" role, and Jim should start to shift to the side. I don't know if I think Harvey should shift to a more central role (though I love him), but I'd be very happy if this show's "team hero" was more Bruce (and Alfred to a lesser extent) at the center, backed up by the duo of Harvey/Jim.

Edited June 9, 2017 by Kostgard

[Miss Dee]

I'd like them to form an antagonistic square...Bruce and Jim at odds as dueling protagonists over their approach to solving problems in Gotham (in polite debate as well as police work vs. vigilantism) and Alfred/Harvey as the negotiating seconds. Lucius becomes the leavening measure that brings them back into equilibrium when he starts aiding both Bruce and Jim. All this as a long arc, of course.

[paigow]

2 hours ago, Miss Dee said:

I'd like them to form an antagonistic square...Bruce and Jim at odds as dueling protagonists over their approach to solving problems in Gotham

Of course, the bad guys are always on the loose because Harvey Dent prosecutes and defends Oswald et al

[immortalfrieza]

12 hours ago, Danielg342 said:

I'm not sure I would agree. If there was any doubt that Ben McKenzie couldn't play "dark", it should be dispelled by the fact McKenzie was Ryan Atwood, who was the exact opposite of Jim Gordon. Gordon was supposed to be the moralist with the dark side, while Atwood was the tough kid with a heart.

Really, I think McKenzie should be knocking it out of the park, and I think, largely, he has. He still commands attention when he enters a scene- it's only when the scene unfolds that I lose that attention.

Gordon failed because I believe the writers simply didn't know what to do with him after Galavan, handing Gordon a love story that the character is just not built for. It really does feel like his story "ended" when he shot Galavan at the docks, because that was the precise moment the moralist was no more and Gordon truly entered "the dark side". After that, the character had nothing left to do- well, I suppose Gordon could have gone completely evil like Oswald, but it wouldn't fit his character and his eventual character progression, so the writers were stuck.

I think at this stage the writers should have just let Oswald, Bruce and maybe even Bullock take over and let Jim be in a support role until they figured out what to do with Jim next (I say he should have slummed at Wayne Manor until the Court of Owls showed up and then "detective Jim" should go back into action).

They never should have tried a love story with Jim because then, I'll agree, Ben McKenzie just isn't good at that role. I know McKenzie and Morena Baccarin are married in real life, but McKenzie just doesn't come across as a romancer, and I'm just not sure how much on-screen chemistry McKenzie and Baccarin had anyway. For the Gordon-Mario-Lee love triangle to really work, Gordon needed to be "vulnerable" and I don't think Gordon- or McKenzie for that matter- can pull off "vulnerable".

The writing is really just as hamstrung as the actor. The problem with Jim Gordon is that he was ALWAYS a support character as Batman's friend on the force, he was never meant to take a leading role. His character in any given story has always been just basically "tell Batman what the hell is going on in Gotham then quip when Batman vanishes while he's not looking" but otherwise be of no real use whatsoever, if he even shows up outside of that in the first place. Gordon has never been some badass vigilante, he's just a police commissioner in a city full of freaky nutjob psychopaths. The show requires Gordon to be utterly ineffectual at doing anything that actually matters because if he wasn't there wouldn't become a need for Batman and that's what ultimately cripples him as a character.

We don't see Gordon walk into a scene and expect him to do something awesome like we do with Batman, we expect to see Gordon royally screw up in some fashion and let the bad guy get away, because that's the only way that all the canon villains don't get killed by him at some point. We don't care about Gordon's personal life either because there wasn't much of anything to draw on for that besides his daughter and since he was a supporting character instead of a main or even a side character like say Robin we've got no real prior investment in his history because we've barely even glimpsed it before now.

Let's also be honest here, Gordon is the straight man to all of Gotham, and the straight man is never very interesting. Quirks have to be minor and subdued at best with a straight man by the nature of the role, so in the end he's going to end up just being boring, especially when every other character is so completely balls off the wall insane that they make a character like Gordon look even more dull than he really is. Lee and Barbara have the same problem, they have always been bit characters if they even show up at all in any given adaption. Making them into whackjobs is all the writers could really do with what they had previously to make them interesting. Likewise, the only way they could have made Jim Gordon interesting is to fundamentally change his character and role for the entire Batman franchise with this series.

Personally, I would have liked it if Gordon had stayed infected, but gone a different route with his symptoms than "I want to kill people just because!!!" and instead had something positive be brought out by it. The Tetch virus has always been nothing more than a cheap plot device to turn people evil, it would be a lot more interesting if it simply drew out and magnified the desires of a person, good ones as well as bad ones. Even Lee's love for Jim was turned into something twisted and Jim, who has never wanted to kill anyone except Galavan (he really REALLY deserved it anyway) is slowly degenerating into a mindless killer because somehow not wanting something AT ALL is your deepest darkest desire.

Ugh. Just... ugh. I knew where this whole Tetch virus storyline was going from the start, but I was hoping that something better could be done with it and I was definitely disappointed. I am glad that the cure in this episode means that we can finally end it.

Edited June 10, 2017 by immortalfrieza

[Danielg342]

16 hours ago, immortalfrieza said:

The writing is really just as hamstrung as the actor. The problem with Jim Gordon is that he was ALWAYS a support character as Batman's friend on the force, he was never meant to take a leading role. His character in any given story has always been just basically "tell Batman what the hell is going on in Gotham then quip when Batman vanishes while he's not looking" but otherwise be of no real use whatsoever, if he even shows up outside of that in the first place. Gordon has never been some badass vigilante, he's just a police commissioner in a city full of freaky nutjob psychopaths. The show requires Gordon to be utterly ineffectual at doing anything that actually matters because if he wasn't there wouldn't become a need for Batman and that's what ultimately cripples him as a character.

We don't see Gordon walk into a scene and expect him to do something awesome like we do with Batman, we expect to see Gordon royally screw up in some fashion and let the bad guy get away, because that's the only way that all the canon villains don't get killed by him at some point. We don't care about Gordon's personal life either because there wasn't much of anything to draw on for that besides his daughter and since he was a supporting character instead of a main or even a side character like say Robin we've got no real prior investment in his history because we've barely even glimpsed it before now.

Let's also be honest here, Gordon is the straight man to all of Gotham, and the straight man is never very interesting. Quirks have to be minor and subdued at best with a straight man by the nature of the role, so in the end he's going to end up just being boring, especially when every other character is so completely balls off the wall insane that they make a character like Gordon look even more dull than he really is. Lee and Barbara have the same problem, they have always been bit characters if they even show up at all in any given adaption. Making them into whackjobs is all the writers could really do with what they had previously to make them interesting. Likewise, the only way they could have made Jim Gordon interesting is to fundamentally change his character and role for the entire Batman franchise with this series.

Personally, I would have liked it if Gordon had stayed infected, but gone a different route with his symptoms than "I want to kill people just because!!!" and instead had something positive be brought out by it. The Tetch virus has always been nothing more than a cheap plot device to turn people evil, it would be a lot more interesting if it simply drew out and magnified the desires of a person, good ones as well as bad ones. Even Lee's love for Jim was turned into something twisted and Jim, who has never wanted to kill anyone except Galavan (he really REALLY deserved it anyway) is slowly degenerating into a mindless killer because somehow not wanting something AT ALL is your deepest darkest desire.

Ugh. Just... ugh. I knew where this whole Tetch virus storyline was going from the start, but I was hoping that something better could be done with it and I was definitely disappointed. I am glad that the cure in this episode means that we can finally end it.

Just because, in the comics, he's a bit, secondary character doesn't mean he couldn't have been crafted into an interesting primary character on this show. I think there was something that the show could have milked by frustrating the idealistic moralist so much that he might think a masked vigilante might not be a bad idea after all.

I would agree that the "straight man" aspect of Gordon's character doesn't work. If anyone should have played the straight man, it should have been Bullock, who's already great as the "audience surrogate", especially a pragmatist like him who might say "shoot that jerk Galavan. He's beaten the law so many times already."

Being "the moralist" is already a big quirk, so the show erred in trying to make him an "Everyman".

[paigow]

Young Bruce needs to find the Wayne Enterprises Weapons Development Department ASAP.

The next street thug might not be so incompetent.

[Miss Dee]

7 hours ago, paigow said:

Young Bruce needs to find the Wayne Enterprises Weapons Development Department ASAP.

The next street thug might not be so incompetent.

Or create one. Does Lucius seem bored to everyone else?

[jay741982]

On 6/5/2017 at 10:06 PM, Chaos Theory said:

Not happy about Barbara's death but should have seen it coming.  She was in more scenes this episode then she has been in since season 1 which usually means death or further down the rabbit hole.  Hell even Butch gets reborn but Babs looks good and dead.

Stupid Jim ruining everything.  I actually liked Dark Jim and really enjoyed Dark Lee.  Would have liked to keep both of them around for awhile but stupid Jim had to ruin everything like always.

Penguin and Nygma were fun like always.  Going back back and forth trying to kill each other.

Bruce's story gets some major momentum. Bruce stabbing Alfred was shocking.  And the ending with him saving the family in the ally was a nice touch.

Stupid Jim.

i'm going to miss Barbara.

This is Gotham I wouldn't count Barbara as being dead yet.And frankly I hope she does live again cause it would suck if she died at the hands of less interesting Tabitha. She's hot but Barbara is more entertaining. Don't need Tabitha dead at all just don't want to lose Barbara

[Chaos Theory]

54 minutes ago, jay741982 said:

This is Gotham I wouldn't count Barbara as being dead yet.And frankly I hope she does live again cause it would suck if she died at the hands of less interesting Tabitha. She's hot but Barbara is more entertaining. Don't need Tabitha dead at all just don't want to lose Barbara

That's among my problems too.  Barbara was one of the more entertaining characters on the show and gets killed by the far less interesting Tabitha in such an unclimatic way.     

[Kathemy]

Seriously though, Barbara's death scene felt a bit like "suicide by Tigress". Like, how idiotic could she be thinking she could take Tabitha Galavan one on one when she even got her arse kicked by Lee?

[jhlipton]

20 hours ago, paigow said:

Young Bruce needs to find the Wayne Enterprises Weapons Development Department ASAP.

Too bad the Research and Development Division of  Wayne Security (headed by Van Wayne) was closed due to lack of funds...

[Perfect Xero]

On 6/7/2017 at 9:01 PM, moonshine71 said:

Did she commit any crimes other than kidnapping/burying Jim? He's not going to press charges.

Other than taking a hit out of Jim earlier this season?

She broke into Luscious's lab and stole their only sample of the Virus (that they were using to try to find a cure) from the GCPD and then used it to infect herself.

She attacked the GCPD officer who was guarding her cell to escape.

She then prevented Jim from attempting to defuse the bomb, which lead to all of the disaster we saw in the city in these episodes.

Also, digging up a grave in a public park is probably some sort of crime, at least a fine.

[Ailianna]

On 6/8/2017 at 9:16 PM, iheartET said:

LOL lines:

1) Harvey to Jim: Yeah, Penguin, Nygma, Tetch all in the same place for a high-stakes hostage swap. What could possibly go wrong?

I thought it was "You, Penguin, Nygma and Tetch all in the same place..."  Which I think is funnier, because it acknowledges that Jim has a way of making things more insane too.  

On 6/10/2017 at 0:01 AM, immortalfrieza said:

The writing is really just as hamstrung as the actor. The problem with Jim Gordon is that he was ALWAYS a support character as Batman's friend on the force, he was never meant to take a leading role. His character in any given story has always been just basically "tell Batman what the hell is going on in Gotham then quip when Batman vanishes while he's not looking" but otherwise be of no real use whatsoever, if he even shows up outside of that in the first place. Gordon has never been some badass vigilante, he's just a police commissioner in a city full of freaky nutjob psychopaths. The show requires Gordon to be utterly ineffectual at doing anything that actually matters because if he wasn't there wouldn't become a need for Batman and that's what ultimately cripples him as a character.

I think that this is perhaps an opinion that is formed by being a big fan of Batman in his various incarnations, rather than, someone like me, who is familiar with the big pop culture of Batman (Adam West, Michael Keaton, and so on).  I have no idea about who half the characters everyone on the board gets so wound about (positive or negative) because I've never read a Batman comic, I haven't seen all the movies even, and I haven't watched BATS, and so on.  I have no major baggage about who Jim Gordon is supposed to be, and so I'm willing to follow on him on this journey where his idealism is constantly being challenged and questioned, and he has to fell into the pit of needing a vigilante to solve the problems, as long as it's still a moral vigilante (and again--limited Batman background--the Batman I've been exposed to has always been smart and ethical and more concerned with saving people than rule following--except Adam West--his Batman was a big rule follower!)  I like Jim Gordon, and I'm glad he's still such a big part of the show.  I also like how his black and white view of the world has been washed in technicolor, and watching him try to figure out how to be the person he wants to be in this new world.  And for the record, yes, some of that is me seeing what I want to see--and some of it is where I see Ben McKenzie bringing more to the material than the writers gave him.  It's not flashy or showy, but I like it.

[paigow]

On 6/12/2017 at 9:22 PM, Perfect Xero said:

Other than taking a hit out of Jim earlier this season?

She broke into Luscious's lab and stole their only sample of the Virus (that they were using to try to find a cure) from the GCPD and then used it to infect herself.

She attacked the GCPD officer who was guarding her cell to escape.

She then prevented Jim from attempting to defuse the bomb, which lead to all of the disaster we saw in the city in these episodes.

Also, digging up a grave in a public park is probably some sort of crime, at least a fine.

Beat up Butch!

[ratgirlagogo]

I was struck by how sunny it was in Gotham for these two episodes.  I'm not sure I ever remember the sun EVER being out in Gotham before.

[jhlipton]

4 hours ago, ratgirlagogo said:

I was struck by how sunny it was in Gotham for these two episodes.  I'm not sure I ever remember the sun EVER being out in Gotham before.

The official theme song of Gotham is "The Sun Will Come Out... Tomorrow!"

[Camera One]

This two-hour finale was a bit exhausting to watch.  

Bruce stabbing Alfred was hard to watch, but I'm glad he's back now.  The magic water was just too convenient.  Though what did the whole experience do for him exactly?  I did like the end scene with him protecting the innocent.  I suppose he did learn to fight better during his time away.

Selena picking up the whip was a nice progression of her becoming Catwoman, but she's rather directionless as well.  So after fighting with Bruce, she decides she wants the bigger purpose of moving up on the hierarchy?  I'm not a huge fan of Tabitha but having her train Selena could be interesting.

I don't care about Barbara or Fish if they died.  Butch surviving was a huge stretch.  I don't know the character of Cyrus Gold, so I have no opinion except it was ridiculous he survived.  I'm tired of Oswald vs. Nygma, though I liked Oswald's cleverness.

As usual, I liked the camaraderie between Jim and Harvey.  Why didn't Jim just lick the antidote off the floor?  It was supposed to be super highly concentrated, wasn't it?  All the infected people willingly came to get a dose?  Clearly, the cells at the police station couldn't hold them.  

You'd think Lee would apologize for being so stupid, but no.

I like the concept of this show and it has so much potential but these characters just go around in circles.