A League of Their Own (1992): Women, Baseball, and that Darn Ending...

[Bastet]

1 hour ago, susannah said:

I didn't think that if her husband was as controlling and possibly abusive as she implied, that he would ever have let her just take off to do what she wanted to do, even if she took the little cretin with her.

Oh, I believe it, because then they had a paycheck coming in - which you know he took control of - and he could continue "reading the want ads" rather than getting a job.

1 hour ago, susannah said:

Did anyone else think it a bit weird that a school age boy would be hanging out in the dressing room with the women while they changed?

She had him cover his eyes (he peeked), and I don't think he was that old, but I'm terrible with kids' ages.  And, realistically, where else could he have been?  No one who's met him for 30 seconds is going to agree to babysit while she gets changed.

1 hour ago, susannah said:

One of the most powerful scenes in the film was when the black woman threw the ball to Dottie, and the look they exchanged.

I'm impressed that scene was included, because sadly, a lot of white writers and directors wouldn't even have thought - especially 30 years ago - to acknowledge, and make the audience acknowledge, that this lifeline of a league was only available to white women.  I remember Ava DuVernay praising that scene in paying tribute to Penny Marshall upon her death. 

Edited September 8, 2021 by Bastet

[susannah]

6 hours ago, Bastet said:

Oh, I believe it, because then they had a paycheck coming in - which you know he took control of - and he could continue "reading the want ads" rather than getting a job.

She had him cover his eyes (he peeked), and I don't think he was that old, but I'm terrible with kids' ages.  And, realistically, where else could he have been?  No one who's met him for 30 seconds is going to agree to babysit while she gets changed.

I'm impressed that scene was included, because sadly, a lot of white writers and directors wouldn't even have thought - especially 30 years ago - to acknowledge, and make the audience acknowledge, that this lifeline of a league was only available to white women.  I remember Ava DuVernay praising that scene in paying tribute to Penny Marshall upon her death. 

"I want to babysit Stillwell Angel," said no one EVER! He did nearly meet his end after he caused the bus accident though and it was pretty funny when Jimmy nailed him with a glove to the head!

While I agree that white women were the only ones asked to try out, I didn't see much privilege involved. They had to fight and scratch for anyone to take them even remotely seriously, having to still be what men wanted them to be, and look like, wearing dresses to play, pouring coffee, etc, enduring ridicule and misogyny everywhere they looked, even from their own coach, playing and traveling in brutal conditions. The things the jerks in the stands said were pretty mild compared to what real people probably said. Was it Ellen Sue who clobbered one jerky guy good and proper?

[Bastet]

15 minutes ago, susannah said:

While I agree that white women were the only ones asked to try out, I didn't see much privilege involved. They had to fight and scratch for anyone to take them even remotely seriously, having to still be what men wanted them to be, and look like, wearing dresses to play, pouring coffee, etc, enduring ridicule and misogyny everywhere they looked, even from their own coach, playing and traveling in brutal conditions.

Yet Black women could have done all those same things and not a single one of them been put on a team, even if one was exponentially better than every one of the white players combined.  It was a racially segregated league.  In many cities, Black spectators were also relegated to designated, lesser seats, even when the league was struggling to pick up fans.  That's white privilege.

It's important to acknowledge that the misogyny navigated by the film's white female characters was a degree less horrible than the systemic prejudicial limitations their BIPOC female counterparts were facing at the time, and the scene crafted to recognize that reality was particularly well done in its simplicity.

[susannah]

1 hour ago, Bastet said:

Yet Black women could have done all those same things and not a single one of them been put on a team, even if one was exponentially better than every one of the white players combined.  It was a racially segregated league.  In many cities, Black spectators were also relegated to designated, lesser seats, even when the league was struggling to pick up fans.  That's white privilege.

It's important to acknowledge that the misogyny navigated by the film's white female characters was a degree less horrible than the systemic prejudicial limitations their BIPOC female counterparts were facing at the time, and the scene crafted to recognize that reality was particularly well done in its simplicity.

I believe I made that point, that there was segregation. However, as I also said, had any of the white women, or any men in the league administration, so much as thought of inviting any black women to join, nothing would have gone forward,  there would have been no trail blazed.  That is my opinion. No one has to agree with it.

[susannah]

On 9/8/2021 at 10:52 PM, Bastet said:

Yet Black women could have done all those same things and not a single one of them been put on a team, even if one was exponentially better than every one of the white players combined.  It was a racially segregated league.  In many cities, Black spectators were also relegated to designated, lesser seats, even when the league was struggling to pick up fans.  That's white privilege

I disagree. Male Negro leagues had been in place since 1920. So it wasn't white privilege that kept black women from forming their own leagues, it was misogny.

[Bastet]

Misogynoir. 

These white women's advantage over Black women was race.  Black men's advantage over them was gender.  Black women were doubly screwed.

[susannah]

6 hours ago, Bastet said:

Misogynoir. 

These white women's advantage over Black women was race.  Black men's advantage over them was gender.  Black women were doubly screwed.

Not sure why you keep stating a well known fact. My point was that as white women fought hard enough for women's softball to be accepted at all, women of all races joined them, if they didn't want to form their own teams.

[Scarlett45]

On 9/8/2021 at 4:26 PM, susannah said:

Did anyone else think it a bit weird that a school age boy would be hanging out in the dressing room with the women while they changed?

 

No. He was maybe 6 or 7 at most? The 1940s had different standards of modesty than we do in the 21st century. Houses were smaller, many people only had one bathroom. 

This was an era where kids of the same sex were expected to shower communally after gym class in many places. 

So a prepubescent boy being in the women’s changing room back then and told to close his eyes wouldn’t surprise me. 

On 9/8/2021 at 5:32 PM, Bastet said:

I'm impressed that scene was included, because sadly, a lot of white writers and directors wouldn't even have thought - especially 30 years ago - to acknowledge, and make the audience acknowledge, that this lifeline of a league was only available to white women.  I remember Ava DuVernay praising that scene in paying tribute to Penny Marshall upon her death. 

Yes it was a great scene, especially since it had no dialogue. 

[susannah]

2 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

This was an era where kids of the same sex were expected to shower communally after gym class in many places. 

So a prepubescent boy being in the women’s changing room back then and told to close his eyes wouldn’t surprise me. 

Yes kids of the same sex shower together after PE, and families often had only one bathroom, but Stillwell was a boy in the women's shower/changing room, with women who were not his family.

[Scarlett45]

9 hours ago, susannah said:

Yes kids of the same sex shower together after PE, and families often had only one bathroom, but Stillwell was a boy in the women's shower/changing room, with women who were not his family.

I get what you’re saying but he was pretty small still, 5 or 6 it seemed like to me (compared to 10 or 12- then they may have had him stand outside). So I didn’t think it was odd.

I see women bring their sons that age into women’s locker rooms/the women’s dressing room. Given that women were/are the primary caregivers of children, I can imagine that happened a lot. 

[Tom Holmberg]

Rockford, IL, home of the Rockford Peaches, is planning to build a women's baseball museum https://www.wifr.com/2021/10/05/plan-international-womens-baseball-museum-advances-city-council/

 

 

[Ms Blue Jay]

On 11/13/2020 at 4:00 PM, Dejana said:

 

 

I loved Rosie in the role and her real-life rapport with Madonna really showed, but I think Jane would have worked as well.

Gasp!  I love Rosie in that role.  

Jane Lynch was in "The Fugitive" the following year.

On 9/8/2021 at 6:32 PM, Bastet said:

I'm impressed that scene was included, because sadly, a lot of white writers and directors wouldn't even have thought - especially 30 years ago - to acknowledge, and make the audience acknowledge, that this lifeline of a league was only available to white women.  I remember Ava DuVernay praising that scene in paying tribute to Penny Marshall upon her death. 

Good point!  

[Scarlett45]

5 hours ago, Tom Holmberg said:

Rockford, IL, home of the Rockford Peaches, is planning to build a women's baseball museum https://www.wifr.com/2021/10/05/plan-international-womens-baseball-museum-advances-city-council/

 

 

Oh nice! I would go see that. Rockford isn’t very far from chicago for a day trip. 

[Tom Holmberg]

12 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

Oh nice! I would go see that. Rockford isn’t very far from chicago for a day trip. 

The town I grew up in in suburban Chicago was known as a home of the "Bloomer Girls."  Before my time, there was a Bloomer Girls field as well as a Bloomer Girls museum.  I've never heard whatever happened to the items in the museum, but hopefully they were preserved.

https://www.forestparkhistory.org/bloomer-girls.html

 

Edited October 6, 2021 by Tom Holmberg
Link added

[moonorchid]

I watched this recently from beginning to end and I couldn’t believe how differently I feel about the ending.

Before I always, 100% felt that Dottie let go of the ball on purpose. I thought it was so obvious. 

On rewatch I was like, “oh my god, she didn’t, she got it knocked out of her”. And the movie actually lays it out clearly that Dottie wanted to win. She wanted to win that game. Kit just beat her. 

Changed the entire movie for me but not how much I still adore it. 

[AgathaC]

I always believed Dottie didn’t mean to let go of the ball. Mainly because the first time I saw it, I was with my doctor dad, who launched into this very detailed explanation of how angles and impacts, muscles and a whole bunch of other stuff I didn’t understand meant she couldn’t have held onto the ball. It was all waaay beyond my understanding at that age, but I believed pretty much anything my dad said, so…

Anyway, from a story perspective, Dottie dropping the ball on purpose would really mar the character and film for me. I find it hard to believe she would do that to her teammates. Or that she could completely let go of her innate competitiveness. They both wanted the win. It just happened to work out in Kit’s favor that day.

Edited October 7, 2021 by AgathaC

[Bastet]

2 hours ago, AgathaC said:

Anyway, from a story perspective, Dottie dropping the ball on purpose would really mar the character and film for me.

When it premiered, I loved the film, but I thought she dropped it on purpose and that really ticked me off.  I've long since switched to thinking it was not on purpose - for the umpteen reasons it wouldn't make sense for that to be the case, as I've previously detailed and won't subject y'all to again - but it took me a while to figure why I reacted as I did initially: That collision sequence being slowed down and shown from multiple angles for dramatic suspense means her hand's movement looks somewhat deliberate, but in real time it would have been instantaneous, and force would have been the clear culprit.

[ruby24]

I think the only reason people think it might have been on purpose was because of the scene where she's shown smiling at Kit being celebrated. You see that and then you wonder, did she make that happen?

[Bastet]

1 hour ago, ruby24 said:

I think the only reason people think it might have been on purpose was because of the scene where she's shown smiling at Kit being celebrated. You see that and then you wonder, did she make that happen?

That wasn't the reason back when I marred the film experience by thinking she'd dropped the ball on purpose, because it's not something that would be any less likely to happen following a proper loss; it's natural that, after the time passed to get cleaned up and head out, the one silver lining of blowing her only chance and feeling like she hadn't come through for the team to which she'd returned would be that Kit finally got the spotlight she wanted.

In fact, that happiness makes far more sense if Kit legitimately beat her, because if Dottie had tanked the game and screwed over her teammates in order to hand Kit victory that isn't real, she'd feel guilty all around, so that moment of observation would show clearly conflicted emotions.  So would her conversations with Jimmy and Mae.  But all of those play straight - that Dottie tried her best and came up just short, but it's okay; Dottie enjoyed the time she spent and is headed off to do what she wants to do next, the league goes on for those who are staying, and Kit has emerged from a life-long shadow.

[susannah]

On 6/7/2020 at 3:23 PM, Mabinogia said:

I am glad Penny canned the kiss, even if it wasn't mean to be romantic, I am glad that the movie was about these women and not about their love lives. Having any of the main cast hook up even just an awkward kiss was just completely unnecessary. 

For me the movie is perfect just as it is. 

All true except for Marla. It was clear that she didn't have a glittering, hopeful life laid out before her, for whatever reason. While her meeting Nelson in a bar when she had had too much to drink, and then marrying him so soon is a bit dubious, she was apparently happy with him and had had a good life with him. It made the movie just right that it showed that she was going to be okay. I guess it didn't matter whether poor Evelyn was going to be okay, but while changing her situation would have been difficult, women did get divorced at that time, and she had her own income, so it was up to her to change it or not.

[susannah]

On 6/6/2020 at 1:34 AM, ruby24 said:

I think having Dottie be unsure about their marriage from the beginning and then kissing Jimmy would not have let the ending that we ended up getting be very satisfying, because it would have seemed like she was ultimately settling for this guy she was never sure of and didn't pursue other avenues in her life that she secretly wanted.

I actually prefer it as it is, because I read it as Dottie being a more typical 1940's woman who, even though she actually is passionate about baseball and playing, simply didn't see herself as someone who was going to have a life that was meant to be any different from most women of that era, and not reaching for it because it just wasn't expected of her. She loves Bob, she wants a family and she doesn't consider doing something different with her life outside the war. And I can believe there were many women of that era, especially around her age who were that way, despite hidden or buried talents and passions. A lot of them were asked to step up in different ways during the war and then asked to go right back to being homemakers after the war was over- I'm sure there were women who were resentful of it and others who didn't question it because this was as society was structured at that time. Perhaps in retrospect years later they might look back on it and realize, as Dottie does, what could have been different.

Having all that other stuff in the movie makes it very explicit that she's suffering and repressing who she is and regretting every choice she's making in the moment and that would have made the ending much more depressing overall. As it is, it's more bittersweet, because it's all in her memories of it.

There were alot of women who didn't want to go back to the kitchen, and didn't, after the war, while others did, whether they liked it or not.

[Bastet]

There are so many substantive reasons for me to love this film, but as I tune in yet again (despite having it on Blu-Ray to watch - and largely recite along with verbatim - at will) upon coming across it while going around the dial tonight, I land smack dab on a lesser one: That I amuse the hell out of myself by, whenever I hear the name Lou, mentally shouting Jimmy's "Who is Lou?!" when the players explain Lou (the driver) quit.

[Hiyo]

I always liked the ending as is. Dottie let Kit win. At least for me she did.

[susannah]

On 2/7/2022 at 5:16 AM, Hiyo said:

I always liked the ending as is. Dottie let Kit win. At least for me she did.

I just saw the film again and again I think that Kit should have been fouled out. It is against the rules to run into a baseman, and that is exactly what Kit did. She deliberately plowed directly into Dottie and knocked her over. There is no way she should have gotten away with that.

[scarynikki12]

2 hours ago, susannah said:

I just saw the film again and again I think that Kit should have been fouled out. It is against the rules to run into a baseman, and that is exactly what Kit did. She deliberately plowed directly into Dottie and knocked her over. There is no way she should have gotten away with that.

Was it against the rules in the 40s? I honestly don’t know but if it wasn’t that was why.

[susannah]

2 hours ago, scarynikki12 said:

Was it against the rules in the 40s? I honestly don’t know but if it wasn’t that was why.

Good point. I don't know either, but that is probably why Kit got away with it.

[dewelar]

Colliding with fielders intentionally has been illegal since at least the early 20th century, but colliding with the catcher specifically wasn't outlawed in the major leagues until very recently -- 2014, I believe. Not sure about the AAGPBL, though.

[DevilsDetails]

Just watched this again for the first time in forever.

Didn't make much of an impression when I first saw it.

I did, however, tear up at the end on this recent viewing. 

BTW: I think Dot dropped it on purpose.

 

 

[SlovakPrincess]

I loathe Kit.  She's so frickin' annoying.

I do, however, think she won legitimately (assuming that tackling the catcher was within the rules), and Dottie had actually wanted to win ... but was nevertheless happy to finally see Kit happy and confidant.  I don't believe Dottie would've screwed over her team to benefit her sister.   

When not constantly wallowing in her childhood grievance of being in Dottie's shadow, Kit actually played well.   Sometimes we can't help but play out family dynamics even as adults -- getting transferred to a different team was probably the best thing that ever happened to Kit.  

I still can't stand her, though.  LOL.  

Edited March 8, 2022 by SlovakPrincess

[Bastet]

At the TCM film festival last month, Lori Petty, Megan Cavanagh, Ann Cusack, Anne Ramsay, Patti Pelton, and Jon Lovitz reminisced about making this film:

 

[Fool to cry]

Recent thought: Dottie is Mycroft to Kit's Sherlock.

[Hiyo]

In that case, I think Kit probably sees Dottie as Moriarty.

[Fool to cry]

If Kit had a Watson and cocaine she wouldn't be so resentful!

Edited May 19, 2022 by Fool to cry

[Tom Holmberg]

A League of Their Own 30th Anniv. Celebration

A 2-day celebration of the Rockford Peaches and the movie that made them world-famous!

Baseball and the Fourth of July Weekend! A Winning Summer Combination

JULY 1 & 2, 2022ROCKFORD, ILLINOIS

https://www.internationalwomensbaseballcenter.org/event/a-league-of-their-own-30th-anniversary-celebration/

[tribeca]

Poor Kit finally has a victory and everyone just thinks her perfect sister handed it to her.  It sucks having a perfect sister.  

[BetterButter]

A League of Their Own: DeLisa Chinn-Tyler, the Woman Who Threw the Baseball Back, Speaks

Quote

The previously unidentified extra tells us all about filming her immortal appearance in the 1992 film

[Bastet]

That's one of my favorite scenes in the film (because so many writers and directors sadly wouldn't even have thought to include that nod to the fact this lifesaver of a league was closed off to Black women), so I love that someone was able to track her down and interview her about it!

[BetterButter]

[Bastet]

Oh, wow, I had no idea they were doing another series.  This looks a lot better than the sitcom that was rushed into production after the movie was a hit -- much better idea to explore different characters than the ones in the film.  And it has the actor who played Janet on The Good Place, cool.  I have Prime, so I'll give this a look when it comes out.

I just did some brief reading, and apparently Rosie O'Donnell has said she'll make an appearance as a bartender in the local gay bar.

[Mabinogia]

I'm in. That looks pretty good. I loved the movie but I like that a series will be able to delve deeper into the story. It's just such an interesting bit of history that, other than A League of Their Own, I've never really heard about. Also, JANET!!!!! I miss D'Arcy Carden. I'm just glad this is on Prime so I can actually watch it. 

[andromeda331]

Wow, that looks great! I can't wait!

[Tom Holmberg]

WGN-TV news in Chicago is having a segment about the "Rockford Peaches" tonight (Thurs), I'd guess the segment will show up on their website for non-Chicagoans.

Edited July 28, 2022 by Tom Holmberg

[ChicksDigScars]

On 10/7/2021 at 3:31 PM, moonorchid said:

I watched this recently from beginning to end and I couldn’t believe how differently I feel about the ending.

Before I always, 100% felt that Dottie let go of the ball on purpose. I thought it was so obvious. 

On rewatch I was like, “oh my god, she didn’t, she got it knocked out of her”. And the movie actually lays it out clearly that Dottie wanted to win. She wanted to win that game. Kit just beat her. 

Changed the entire movie for me but not how much I still adore it. 

The real question isn’t whether Dottie dropped the ball on purpose (I say no). It’s the fact that if she hadn’t deserted the team when her husband showed up, and played in the first six games of the World Series, Rockford would have won in six, possibly five. :)

And yes, if Marla (AND Dottie) hadn't left, it would have been Rockford in four. 

Edited July 29, 2022 by ChicksDigScars

[Tom Holmberg]

On 7/27/2022 at 8:40 AM, Tom Holmberg said:

WGN-TV news in Chicago is having a segment about the "Rockford Peaches" tonight (Thurs), I'd guess the segment will show up on their website for non-Chicagoans.

https://wgntv.com/news/destination-illinois/womens-baseball-museum-to-honor-legacy-of-rockford-peaches/

[BlueSkies]

I liked the movie.  People always quote the There's No Crying In Baseball but the final This Used To Be My Playground song by Madonna always hits a nerve with me.  One of my favorite songs of hers but one I can't listen too all that often...  it generates heavy nostalgia/sadness with me for innocence.  

Just gonna say it: judging by what I've seen of the new series it kinda looks a bit on the Woke side for me.  But maybe some day I will give it a chance 

[ChicksDigScars]

I found a copy of the 25th anniversary Blu Ray with the additional scenes mentioned a few pages back, which included the Dottie/Jimmy kiss and the Marla playing for the Belles and Dottie running her down. 

I found it interesting that if the Marla scenes had been used, you would have seen that Dottie did in fact, play in the World Series. The first game, at least. So, she left after crying about running secretly pregnant Marla over at second base. Bob showed up after Game One and found her crying. So yeah, she was crying about Marla, not the death of George Spaghetti, and how that very well could have been her losing a husband instead of Betty. 

I liked the missing Jimmy-Dottie scene right up until the kiss. Because that kiss would have changed the entire tone of the movie and turned the heroine into a villain who cheats on her husband while he's fighting the Nazi's. It was better to leave it out. It did necessitate a change in the locker room scene where Dottie tells Lowenstein to trade her. Originally, he guessed that the problem was Jimmy, not Kit, which made sense considering the kiss. 

The extra bar scenes were good in that Jimmy stops Kit from going out to a car with a stranger. Even though he was a cute stranger, and then knocking out Lowenstein before he caught the girls in the bar. But, I could have done without drunken Marla falling and pulling off Dottie's robe on the way to the floor, and having Jimmy oogling Dottie in her short nightie in the middle of the bar. Kinda cheap. Funny line where Dottie says, "What are you going to do with Lowenstein?" and Jimmy says, "Put him in bed with Miss Cutberth. He'll never talk after that." (paraphrasing)

[Bastet]

2 hours ago, ChicksDigScars said:

The extra bar scenes were good in that Jimmy stops Kit from going out to a car with a stranger.

I like that it's still very much her choice.  She was getting ready to follow Mae's advice to let the guy win, so she "had to" go out to his truck, but then Jimmy came up and said maybe this is a decision that shouldn't be made after a pitcher of beer -- then he looked at the hot, shirtless guy and said, "Then again, maybe it should," heh.  He walked away, and Kit made her decision to throw a third perfect strike.

[Tom Holmberg]

A Hoop of Their Own

https://www.forestparkreview.com/2022/11/29/forest-parkers-pride/

[andromeda331]

5 hours ago, Tom Holmberg said:

A Hoop of Their Own

https://www.forestparkreview.com/2022/11/29/forest-parkers-pride/

That was so cool!

[Tom Holmberg]

Book due out on the movie: "No Crying in Baseball" by Erin Carlson (Hachette, Sept. 2023. ISBN: 9780306830181)