Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

[YaddaYadda]

Per spoilers, Bronn was supposed to travel north with Jaime, and yet, he went for drinks with Pod and never came back. 

I'm wondering how long it will take them to resolve some of the plots, like Sam finding out about his father/brother, Jon's true paternity and so on. Six episodes seems to short for everything.

[SimoneS]

5 hours ago, bubble sparkly said:

The fact that D&D are trying to hype it up as a big thing just makes it more likely to be over pretty quickly lol.  Dany is not going to care they are related, and I bet someone will remind Jon about the other avuncular marriages in the Stark tree to make the audience see it's acceptable.  Hell, Sansa might even take note of Littlefinger's comment and be the one to suggest they marry to quell any Northern Lord bitching (because those idiots will always find a reason to bitch even if Dany is bringing her dragons to save their asses). 

I'm sure someone (Varys? Tyrion? Jorah?) will stir the pot by telling Dany that Jon might try and take the throne and/or that people might support him over her, but I can't see that really be an issue for more than a second considering Jon has no interest in that and is head over heels for Dany

I'm going to predict we get a Dany pregnancy reveal and Cersei miscarriage double whamy maybe halfway through the season.  That will be the thing that tips Cersei completely over the edge.

This might be the SansayArya plot of season 8.  We are supposed to spend all season wondering if Tyrion is going to betray Dany/hurt Jon and then there will be a "gotcha" where he saves them / has been playing someone else all along.

I think that you have season 8 nailed. I think that Dany won't care that they are related, but since she thinks that she is infertile, she might demand that Jon marries someone else to continue the Targaryen line which will cause him to go all broody. Of course, Dany will be pregnant which will reunite them. Moving Cercei's miscarriage to season 8 means that Dany's pregnancy will occur in the same episode. I think episode 5 most likely. Also, I wouldn't be surprised if it seems like Tyrion is causing problems between them out of jealousy. 

 

4 hours ago, Eyes High said:

In the cast commentary video about JonxDany, the actors suggested this was a Bad Thing--Emilia and Kit even did some adorable fake vomiting--but the same thing happened with 6x10 and Jon vs. Sansa, so I remain highly skeptical.

Yep, there will be this big set up of a conflict between Jon and Dany that will amount to naught.

[screamin]

12 hours ago, doram said:

I think it might have had something to do with the rude way that Sansa sent her off to King's Landing... Maybe... I would like to think it does but the only thing these writers do worse than continuity is writing about Sansa consistently. 

I can't see Brienne throwing over her oath to Sansa and Arya because Sansa was slightly rude to her that one time she tried to argue with a direct order. Brienne wouldn't let a grudge over something so small supercede her promise. I could see her breaking her oath to fight the WW instead, if Sansa wanted to order her to stay out of that fight.

[glowbug]

I think the confusion on what we're supposed to infer from boatsex being intertwined with the Rhaegar/Lyanna marriage reveal is because the show has failed to identify what incestuous pairings are considered taboo in their world, which leaves it up to the audience to assume their modern real world sensibilities of what is acceptable are what the characters in the story will feel. In the books we have evidence that cousin/cousin pairings are not considered taboo in Westerosi society, and if a book reader did a little digging they would also find that uncle/niece and aunt/nephew are not taboo either. But since the show hasn't really addressed this I don't know how the characters will react to this revelation in the show. Dany obviously shouldn't care since she was fine with marrying her brother, but we don't know what Jon and the rest of the non-Targaryen characters will think. The only incestuous relationship on the show (from what I can recall) is Jaime and Cersei, who are brother and sister, and that is definitely taboo. I wish the writers had established which incestuous relationships are taboo and which were not in the show so I could predict how the character will respond to it.

[Eyes High]

In addition to the multiple hints about Dany getting pregnant in S8, I also thought there were a number of references to Dany getting hit by an arrow: Dany being told it was too dangerous to fly her dragon into battle in one of the early episode, the near-miss with the archers in 7x04, Tyrion warning her again in 7x06, and lastly Jorah in 7x07 saying all it would take was an "angry man with a crossbow" (albeit in the context of suggesting Dany should fly to Winterfell). It seems like an odd thing to zero in on; surely, the bigger threat would be something happening to Drogon and Dany being thrown off to her death or killed when the dragon crashed, particularly once it's been established that. As I recall, in the Dance of the Dragons, that's how a number of dragonriders died (getting thrown off or crushed by their dragons).

...For my money, if Dany has to die, I'd much rather she get taken out by an arrow in battle than die in childbirth. However, if she does get pregnant in Season 8, which is looking very likely given all the hinting, that would likely confer Dany with plot immunity until said baby could be born, which would mean she'd likely be safe until the end of the series (absent some sort of time jump). So we'll see.

Edited August 28, 2017 by Eyes High

[Chris24601]

2 hours ago, glowbug said:

I think the confusion on what we're supposed to infer from boatsex being intertwined with the Rhaegar/Lyanna marriage reveal is because the show has failed to identify what incestuous pairings are considered taboo in their world.

If they're using the real world (which I think they are since they used annulment/remarriage over polygamy), then aunt/nephew is almost universally taboo (its on par genetically with half-siblings; a 25% inbreeding coefficient normally, though Rhaegar and Dany's parents and grandparents being inbred pushes Jon/Dany specifically up to nearly 50% which is Jaime/Cersei or Craster territory).

First cousins by contrast is really only taboo in about half the United States, but is valid in the majority of the world (its inbreeding coefficient is 12.5% is roughly as dangerous as a woman having children in her 30's). It should be noted that "cross cousins" is the most acceptable form of first cousin pairing when it is allowed; some places allow it while forbidding other first cousin unions for example... which is where Jon/Sansa or Jon/Arya would fall since Ned and Lyanna were brother/sister.

My hunch is that Jon will be able to find some equilibrium between Targ and Stark (as foreshadowed by his conversation with Theon where he says he can be both), but will have bigger problems with the incest factor due to having been raised a Stark.

Conversely, I don't think Dany would have any problems with the inbreeding (though her sharing 75% of her DNA with her father is probably a more likely culprit for her initial miscarriage and general inability to get pregnant than any witch's curse... King Tut was less inbred than Daenerys Targaryen... so was Joffrey for that matter), but will have a great deal of difficulty getting over the notion that Jon is actually the rightful King (confirmed onscreen by Bran/Sam) and she has no legitimate claim to the Throne once that fact becomes known, because as the finale pointed out... "Dragon's don't know what's theirs" and she's wrapped her entire identity up into being the rightful heir to the Iron Throne.

Further, just as Jon was unable to lie to his enemy, he will be unable to lie about his heritage once he knows of it. Lying and pretending to still be Ned's bastard when he's not just so he can choose love for Dany over his duty to the people of Westeros as their true king is not something he's going to be able to do... and that will utterly fuck up Dany's claim to the throne since Jon's claim will be better than hers and that gives anyone else a solid reason to reject her claim and putting her in the position of either accepting Jon's claim is better and giving up her pursuit of the Iron Throne (unlikely given everything she's defined herself as) or become an outright conqueror and seize the throne by right of conquest and dragons.

I think the question for Jon next season will be whether he can put love before duty and for Dany whether she can put love before her ambition. Because this is drama, there's still at least the length of 2+ major motion pictures left to go in this story and the non-endgame romance setup of boatsex (no first kiss, no dialogue, no undressing, no foreplay... far less than Missy/Greyworm) I think the answer to those question is clearly no.

Jon will not put love before duty and Dany will be unable to put love before her ambition. So, in the end, the two will end up becoming mortal enemies (a Dance of Dragons 2.0... now with added ice demons) with their magical night of boatsex being played as a tragic "could have been" to twist the knife just a bit further in the endgame.

Edited August 28, 2017 by Chris24601

[SeanC]

13 minutes ago, Chris24601 said:

Further, just as Jon was unable to lie to his enemy, he will be unable to lie about his heritage once he knows of it. Lying and pretending to still be Ned's bastard when he's not just so he can choose love for Dany over his duty to the people of Westeros as their true king is not something he's going to be able to do...

I don't see it.  Jon is not the sort of person who would start a civil war (one that he really doesn't have the resources to win, anyway) purely to put himself on the throne.

Moreover, if Jon and Dany marry and rule jointly the whole issue of respective claims is of minimal significance.  The logical solution if they're in a relationship is co-monarchy, a la William and Mary.

I'm sure there'll be some angst before they arrive at that endpoint, assuming they both otherwise survive.

[Tikichick]

Anybody think there's anything to the fact that Cersei is said to be pregnant, we're getting lots of indications Dany isn't barren -- and she's engaged in activity which often results in conception -- while the NK might not in fact be marching to conquer Westeros, but may in fact be looking for his missing baby boy?  If he cannot locate Samwell will he accept another babe in his place?  Even if he locates Samwell, will he perhaps take another babe or two to foster as a way to keep Westeros compliant?

[MadMouse]

3 hours ago, SimoneS said:

I think that you have season 8 nailed. I think that Dany won't care that they are related, but since she thinks that she is infertile, she might demand that Jon marries someone else to continue the Targaryen line which will cause him to go all broody. Of course, Dany will be pregnant which will reunite them. Moving Cercei's miscarriage to season 8 means that Dany's pregnancy will occur in the same episode. I think episode 5 most likely. Also, I wouldn't be surprised if it seems like Tyrion is causing problems between them out of jealousy. 

They might even have Tyrion be the one whispering in her ear about the situation and have people questioning whether he's doing it out of loyalty or jealously.

[SimoneS]

1 minute ago, MadMouse said:

They might even have Tyrion be the one whispering in her ear about the situation and have people questioning whether he's doing it out of loyalty or jealously.

I can this happening.

[Azi]

Possible reactions to incest aside, I just can't see Jon fighting to become king in the current situation. Becoming king is probably the last thing he wants, but he would probably do it out of a sense of duty IF someone like Cersei was on the throne while no one else with a claim was challenging her. But Jon sees Dany as a perfectly fine queen to be. She has the name, she has the dragons and she WANTS it. I can't see him argue that he should be king instead of her just because he has a better claim. No one absolutely has to be king if s/he doesn't want to and there are other heirs around (hell, even then). He could just abdicate. Or marry Dany of course. Especially if she's really pregnant. I assume his stance on fathering bastards hasn't changed.

I mean, unless someone somehow could convince him that Dany is going mad (which I doubt will happen), I'm just now seeing it.
 

[glowbug]

But this show isn't based off of real world medieval practices, it's based on a fantasy series. If GRRM hadn't addressed the aunt/nephew unions in the books I would look to medieval Europe (where uncle/niece marriages did happen, though I believe rarely) since Westeros is based on medieval Europe, but GRRM has addressed it. There are uncle/niece marriages in the Stark family tree so it is practiced by non-Targaryens. The problem is the show hasn't addressed it and sometimes they do make changes so I question what the implications are of Jon and Dany being nephew and aunt. If they are following the books with regard to this practice then there are a ton of non-book readers who are probably getting the wrong idea about how the characters (besides Dany) will feel about them being aunt and nephew. If they're ignoring the books then book readers will be getting the wrong idea. Hopefully D & D will address it in an interview. 

There is definitely going to be angst regarding Jon being the rightful heir to the throne, although this could easily be solved by Dany and Jon marrying, so something has to stand in the way of that happening. One reason could be the disgust over being aunt and nephew but I'm sure they can come up with other barriers as well. 

[bubble sparkly]

With regard to the Dany/arrow talk, maybe she will get a non-fatal injury that will resolve any D/J angst? Like things will be tense and a bit up in the air / "we can never be together now" but then either the WW battle or a Cersei attack will happen. Then they do a reverse wight hunt and Dany can be the injured one who nearly dies, and it makes them realise they love each other and should be together blah blah blah. Bonus points if the winterfell maester (or Sam) examines Dany after the injury and discovers she has a man-bun in the oven.

[SeanC]

1 hour ago, Tikichick said:

Anybody think there's anything to the fact that Cersei is said to be pregnant, we're getting lots of indications Dany isn't barren -- and she's engaged in activity which often results in conception -- while the NK might not in fact be marching to conquer Westeros, but may in fact be looking for his missing baby boy?  If he cannot locate Samwell will he accept another babe in his place?  Even if he locates Samwell, will he perhaps take another babe or two to foster as a way to keep Westeros compliant?

The Night King was on the march well before Baby Sam was taken south of the Wall.

[shaggylives]

Bronn likes money and Cersi claims to still have access to the Iron Bank.  Anyone else think Bronn will happily rejoin his buddies but then mid season 8 suddenly slit Jaime's throat and say Cersi paid him well to do it?

[ParadoxLost]

3 hours ago, Chris24601 said:

Further, just as Jon was unable to lie to his enemy, he will be unable to lie about his heritage once he knows of it. Lying and pretending to still be Ned's bastard when he's not just so he can choose love for Dany over his duty to the people of Westeros as their true king is not something he's going to be able to do... and that will utterly fuck up Dany's claim to the throne since Jon's claim will be better than hers and that gives anyone else a solid reason to reject her claim and putting her in the position of either accepting Jon's claim is better and giving up her pursuit of the Iron Throne (unlikely given everything she's defined herself as) or become an outright conqueror and seize the throne by right of conquest and dragons..

I disagree.  Jon has been hiding his resurrection from those not aware of it.

And I think his inability to lie to Cersei is more about not breaking his oath to Dany.  I think that same oath to Dany will trump Jon finding out that he is the rightful heir.  And he doesn't want to rule.  He just wants to defeat the threat of the Army of the Dead.

I think this news will be shared in very limited ways and very slowly.

Bran and Sam tell Jon.

Jon tells Dany.  They go platonic privately but keep up appearances for the sake of the alliance/war.  I wouldn't be surprised if they decided to marry before showing up in Winterfell to secure the alliance. 

Frankly,  I'm starting to think Jon dies in battle as the ultimate sacrifice to save everyone.  Dany makes it long enough to secure the throne and give birth.  Then Sansa / Tyrion remarry (or are still married) and act as regents until the baby is grown.

[Raachel2008]

23 hours ago, SeanC said:

 You've got Jon seeing Arya again,

They better show this. I've been waiting seven years for that - longer in the books.

 

21 hours ago, bubble sparkly said:

Also, who is going to be happiest about Dany's inevitable pregnancy - Dany, Jon or Grandpa Davos?

Davos, hands up.

 

17 hours ago, Eyes High said:

The other big thing is that the outlines are very explicit that Tyrion is in love with Dany, but in the Season 7 finished product, there are no hints to that effect other than Tyrion looking troubled by boatsex, which leads me to wonder whether D&D scrapped that idea altogether, or whether they're planning to make Tyrion's love for Dany more of a sticking point in Season 8.

The way they shoot that scene could mean anything, from Tyrion realizing that his idea of marrying Jon and Dany - which is what he hinted in 7x06 - started to become real to fear for what might happen in Jon or Dany dies in battle. It also could be jealousy in that 'if I hadn't been a dwarf, a 'monster' way' or Tyrion thinking that now whatever he suggests he will need two convince two people because Dany and Jon are going to be an item.

OR maybe, just maybe, Tyrion will end in a position he betrays Dany or Dany and Jon thinking it is for the best and it is not.

4 hours ago, ParadoxLost said:

Then Sansa / Tyrion remarry (or are still married) and act as regents until the baby is grown.

I don't think Jon and Dany dies. I think one of them lives.

I also expect the final season to deliver all the deaths: Jaime, Cersei, Qyburn, Royce, Glover, Varys, Greyworm, Edd, Pod, Brienne, Tormund, the Mountain, Beric, Jorah, Euron, Theon, and Dany or Jon.

[Blonde Gator]

23 hours ago, bubble sparkly said:

So going by D&D's comment on the Inside the Episode feature about how Dany/Jon are going to experience some extreme turbulence when the truth come out, are we thinking one episode of angst before they marry lol?  Two max?  At the end of last season they were trying to sell extreme drama between Jon and Sansa and it fizzled pretty quickly.

I'm curious how they will play out the reveal to Jon though.  Will Bran announce it in front of all the Starks plus Northern lords, as well as all Dany's crew?  Or will it be Bran only, or just all the Stark sibs?

Also, who is going to be happiest about Dany's inevitable pregnancy - Dany, Jon or Grandpa Davos?

I believe we'll have none other than Howland Reed (and Meera) show up in Winterfell.  Howland should be able to receive "dreams" from Bran, as the former 3ER was able to send dreams to Jojen.  Bran will summon Howland Reed via a dream, (or he's been planting them for a while).    Perhaps Bran goes old school, and sends a raven, or better yet, really old school, and send a talking raven (they talked in the past, according to book canon).

Howland will be in on the Jon/Aegon reveal, along with Sam & Bran, and I believe he also has more to say about the Children of the Forest.  I suspect we'll also learn from Howland that the CotF are still around, and hiding out on the Isle of Faces, at the God's Eye, in the Riverlands.  I'm hoping we'll get to see someone make a trip there, for help from the CotF, and I would LOVE to see Graywater Watch, either on the way to the Isle of Faces, or perhaps in a retreat to the south when the Walkers are deep into the North. 

I also suspect we'll find that the Night King's motives, along with the White Walkers, is to destroy the CotF totally, which will release them back into human form, where they can live outside of the Lands of Always Winter.  I also supsect that there's a deep dark secret in the crypts of Winterfell, perhaps the original Night's King (not the same as the show one, BTW) was imprisoned after the end of the First Long Night.  The Stark castle is named after the place where the War was ended, when "Winter Fell".  And I believe that sucker is caged up in the crypts.  The WW's want to release the very first and most powerful White Walker made, who was a Stark, and I also believe he was Brandon of the Bloody Blade, the father of Brandon the Builder (first Stark, and builder of Winterfell, the Wall, Storm's End).  

It will be interesting to see if we'll get any hints of the origins of the First Long Night (via Bran flashbacks) that go into any of the ancient history during the Age of Heroes.  Since the Song of Ice and Fire appears to be about history repeating itself, I'm really hoping this happens.  But I won't be shocked if the show leaves it all out, and goes for more of a fan fiction ending.  

And now our watch has begun.  *sigh*

[anamika]

So now that season 7 speculation and spoilers discussion is over, is this our new hangout?

13 hours ago, doram said:

Off the top of my head, isn't it legal in the State of New York?

Where I am from, uncle-niece/first cousin marriages are no big deal and is legal. So it's a bit weird for me seeing people getting squicked out by this incest. I guess that's the cultural differences coming across.

Plus, in the world of Westeros, marriage between cousins and uncle-niece has already happened for the Lannisters and Starks. Why would an aunt-nephew marriage be taboo.

Coming to the genetics, they really don't count in the fantasy world of Westeros and GRRM's understanding of how genetics actually works is poor. So coming up with things like inbreeding coefficients makes no sense. Rhaegar was the product of lots of inbreeding and by all accounts he was hot, charming, intelligent, a good warrior etc - the perfect man.

If the truth comes out it's going to create an identity crisis for Jon and Dany is going to be shaken by the prospect that she is not the last dragon and that Jon is the rightful Targaryen heir to the Iron Throne. These are momentous, emotional conflicts for both characters - I mean Dany's entire journey is defined by her quest for the Iron Throne - imagine how it would be to finally get there and Jon pops up. 

But at this point, they love each other which means they will try to resolve whatever conflicts they have through arguments and discussion. I don't see them ever going to war with each other. I doubt they will be too bothered by the incest - referring to GRRM's original outline, the Jon/Arya sibling love situation was resolved once Jon's true parentage was revealed. Compared to that, this is nothing. Provided Jon and Dany survive, I still stick to what I predicted way back last year before we even got any spoilers - this is a Henry VII and Elizabeth of York situation with the genders reversed and they will marry for political stability uniting the North and South - pretty much what Robert wanted with Joffrey/Sansa.

It could be that GRRM is really heading for a Targaryen dynasty restoration with Jon, Dany and possible baby. He seems to really love the Targaryens and their history. All that talk between Jon and Dany at the Dragonpit about it being the beginning of the end for her family, dragons, babies, etc. seems to be hinting that. It could be why GRRM changed the title of his final book from 'A Time for Wolves' to 'A Dream of Spring'.

Edited August 29, 2017 by anamika

[SeanC]

5 hours ago, Blonde Gator said:

I also supsect that there's a deep dark secret in the crypts of Winterfell, perhaps the original Night's King (not the same as the show one, BTW) was imprisoned after the end of the First Long Night. 

The actor in the flashback to the creation of the Night King is the same as the person playing him in the present-day scenes.

[YaddaYadda]

5 hours ago, Blonde Gator said:

Howland will be in on the Jon/Aegon reveal, along with Sam & Bran, and I believe he also has more to say about the Children of the Forest.  I suspect we'll also learn from Howland that the CotF are still around, and hiding out on the Isle of Faces, at the God's Eye, in the Riverlands.  I'm hoping we'll get to see someone make a trip there, for help from the CotF, and I would LOVE to see Graywater Watch, either on the way to the Isle of Faces, or perhaps in a retreat to the south when the Walkers are deep into the North. 

I think anyone who thinks Howland is coming next season needs to not think that anymore.

Bran told Sam he was the only one who knew about this secret. Unless it's a writing error, they've resolved the Howland Reed "plot" already on the show. If anything, they might decide to unearth stuff that Ned brought back from the tower as proof of the claim unless Bran can take people inside the vision with him and show them what he knows.

That said, I think Howland Reed's role in the books will go beyond what he knows about Jon. Whatever he learned when he was on the Isle of Faces for that year is more than likely going to come into play. Plus I don't think he rode to Dorne with Ned just to find Lyanna. I think he knew they'd find much and more there.

54 minutes ago, anamika said:

Coming to the genetics, they really don't count in the fantasy world of Westeros and GRRM's understanding of how genetics actually works is poor. So coming up with things like inbreeding coefficients makes no sense. Rhaegar was the product of lots of inbreeding and by all accounts he was hot, charming, intelligent, a good warrior etc - the perfect man.

That's probably the reason he inserted that line about the gods flipping a coin every time a Targaryen is born and the world holding its breath. 

Maekar and Dyanna Dayne had Aerion Brightflame who was crazy, but Maester Aemon had none of that in him. His parents weren't blood related, his grandparents weren't blood related either. Rhaegar and Dany turned out fine, but Viserys not so much. 

I think too much is made of the incest. It's part of that universe. And everyone is practicing low key incest. Tywin married his cousin, the Houses keep intermarrying. Everyone in Westeros is related somehow. Both Lyanna and Rhaegar had Blackwood great-grandmothers (who may have been sisters) and that makes them distant kin.

Edited August 29, 2017 by YaddaYadda

[MadMouse]

1 hour ago, anamika said:

So now that season 7 speculation and spoilers discussion is over, is this our new hangout?

Where I am from, uncle-niece/first cousin marriages are no big deal and is legal. So it's a bit weird for me seeing people getting squicked out by this incest. I guess that's the cultural differences coming across.

Plus, in the world of Westeros, marriage between cousins and uncle-niece has already happened for the Lannisters and Starks. Why would an aunt-nephew marriage be taboo.

Coming to the genetics, they really don't count in the fantasy world of Westeros and GRRM's understanding of how genetics actually works is poor. So coming up with things like inbreeding coefficients makes no sense. Rhaegar was the product of lots of inbreeding and by all accounts he was hot, charming, intelligent, a good warrior etc - the perfect man.

If the truth comes out it's going to create an identity crisis for Jon and Dany is going to be shaken by the prospect that she is not the last dragon and that Jon is the rightful Targaryen heir to the Iron Throne. These are momentous, emotional conflicts for both characters - I mean Dany's entire journey is defined by her quest for the Iron Throne - imagine how it would be to finally get there and Jon pops up. 

But at this point, they love each other which means they will try to resolve whatever conflicts they have through arguments and discussion. I don't see them ever going to war with each other. I doubt they will be too bothered by the incest - referring to GRRM's original outline, the Jon/Arya sibling love situation was resolved once Jon's true parentage was revealed. Compared to that, this is nothing. Provided Jon and Dany survive, I still stick to what I predicted way back last year before we even got any spoilers - this is a Henry VII and Elizabeth of York situation with the genders reversed and they will marry for political stability uniting the North and South - pretty much what Robert wanted with Joffrey/Sansa.

It could be that GRRM is really heading for a Targaryen dynasty restoration with Jon, Dany and possible baby. He seems to really love the Targaryens and their history. All that talk between Jon and Dany at the Dragonpit about it being the beginning of the end for her family, dragons, babies, etc. seems to be hinting that. It could be why GRRM changed the title of his final book from 'A Time for Wolves' to 'A Dream of Spring'.

And just to play devils advocate, say Jon is disgusted about the fact he slept with his aunt. Does anyone think he would let his child with her and lets be real he knocked her up on the boat or will at some point be a bastard? There's no way that happens.

About the dream for spring title change, I would bet the child they have will be named the Spring King or Queen.

[absnow54]

The way they shoot that scene could mean anything, from Tyrion realizing that his idea of marrying Jon and Dany - which is what he hinted in 7x06 - started to become real to fear for what might happen in Jon or Dany dies in battle. It also could be jealousy in that 'if I hadn't been a dwarf, a 'monster' way' or Tyrion thinking that now whatever he suggests he will need two convince two people because Dany and Jon are going to be an item. OR maybe, just maybe, Tyrion will end in a position he betrays Dany or Dany and Jon thinking it is for the best and it is not.

Since everyone believes Dany is infertile, and Tyrion seems obsessed with Dany dying, I'm wondering if Tyrion promised Cersei that her child would be named Dany's heir. We never saw the end of the conversation that led to Cersei "promising" her forces, and that could explain why Tyrion looked so guilty in the boat scene, because he already promised away her kingdom (and oh no, what happens if Jon Snow puts a baby in her!)

[SeanC]

1 hour ago, YaddaYadda said:

 That's probably the reason he inserted that line about the gods flipping a coin every time a Targaryen is born and the world holding its breath. 

Maekar and Dyanna Dayne had Aerion Brightflame who was crazy, but Maester Aemon had none of that in him. His parents weren't blood related, his grandparents weren't blood related either. Rhaegar and Dany turned out fine, but Viserys not so much. 

Yeah, I've always thought the emphasis Egg placed on the incest tradition and its effects was a bit odd given that he and his siblings were the product of two straight generations of outbreeding (Daeron II/Mariah Martell, Maekar I/Dyanna Dayne) and Egg's own marriage to Betha Blackwood made his children the least-inbred Targaryens in the history of the Seven Kingdoms.  So using Aerion as an example of the effects of inbreeding seems dubious, as he wasn't inbred much at all.  Only one of his four grandparents was a Targaryen.

Actually, since the show got rid of Jaehaerys II, the Mad King there wasn't even the product of incest.

Edited August 29, 2017 by SeanC

[YaddaYadda]

14 minutes ago, SeanC said:

Yeah, I've always thought the emphasis Egg placed on the incest tradition and its effects was a bit odd given that he and his siblings were the product of two straight generations of outbreeding (Daeron II/Mariah Martell, Maekar I/Dyanna Dayne) and Egg's own marriage to Betha Blackwood made his children the least-inbred Targaryens in the history of the Seven Kingdoms.  So using Aerion as an example of the effects of inbreeding seems dubious, as he wasn't inbred much at all.  Only one of his four grandparents was a Targaryen.

Actually, since the show got rid of Jaehaerys II, the Mad King there wasn't even the product of incest.

That's another example. Aerys was mad while Rhaella had none of that in her. And Viserys was showing the signs when he was very young still. Barristan saw it. 

I think Egg's outlook has to do with him spending so much time outside his family and traveling the realm incognito. People spoke their minds freely around him because they didn't know who he was, so perspective on things tends to change.  

I think it's easy to blame the inbreeding for the behavior we've seen and the madness, but to me, it doesn't look like it has to do as much with that as we think it does. And we can't discount the dragon dreams either. Dragon dreams drove Daeron to drinking because he was unable to cope. 

Anyway, with regard to season 8, we know the Jon secret has to come out, but I'd like him to have five seconds to enjoy his reunion with Arya. I'm assuming Bran will just info dump on him because that's what he does now. I'd like to have a scene in the crypts though. 

I've been wondering how they're going to work out the whole the Wall has fallen, there's a giant undead dragon flying overhead and the Unsullied supposedly being dropped off at Eastwatch. Do they find out about this before Grey Worm and his men get there? 

I guess we won't be getting a last minute save next season when all is lost since we'll have mostly everyone in the same place.

[MarySNJ]

16 hours ago, Tikichick said:

Anybody think there's anything to the fact that Cersei is said to be pregnant, we're getting lots of indications Dany isn't barren -- and she's engaged in activity which often results in conception -- while the NK might not in fact be marching to conquer Westeros, but may in fact be looking for his missing baby boy?  If he cannot locate Samwell will he accept another babe in his place?  Even if he locates Samwell, will he perhaps take another babe or two to foster as a way to keep Westeros compliant?

I was struck by the tender way that the NK resurrected Viserion. It was almost gentle. The wights seem to "care" about their own, or at least in the manner of insects that rescue injured hive mates. I do think there is a kind of community through among the army of the dead and their masters, and they have their own story to tell which may be revealed in season 8.

My speculation is that the babies that Craster (and probably other people) sacrificed were part of a deal to keep the White Walkers from attacking humans. Any pact between the men, children of the forest and the Others in antiquity would have been forgotten, although maybe there's something in the runes that tell the tale if only people could read them As for Gilly's son, it may be that NK is moving now against men because the sacrifice was stolen. But I recall that Waymar Royce was killed by White Walkers before Gilly's son was born, so it seems there was something else disturbing them. Maybe the men came too close to the White Walkers' homeland or became too numerous North of the Wall or something. In any case, it may be that another baby sacrificed to the Night King would placate him for the loss of little Sam but I don't think that's the only think he's after.

A couple of baby speculations:  

I think Cersei will have a miscarriage but no one "important" who is involved in the conflict will find out about it except Qyburn who is completely loyal to her.

Probable miscarriage notwithstanding, I've seen some theories that Tyrion may have made a deal with Cersei offscreen to make sure that her child will succeed Dany. Tyrion feels guilt and remorse for his actions that contributed to the death of Myrcella and mourns her and her brother Tommen. He may see Cersei's pregnancy as a chance to make amends by offering to protect Cersei's child and make sure that he or she is Dany's heir, while also securing a promise from Cersei to keep to the truce or aid the Northern alliance. I think this could coincide with the "treason for love" mentioned in the books as well. He probably figures if Daenerys is barren it would be a way to resolve conflicts between the houses when the Great War is over. 

Now, the fact that Cersei has no intention of keeping to her pledge to help fight the army of the dead would probably nullify any deal Tyrion made to her. However, I think Tyrion is driven as much by family guilt at this point, and maybe having second thoughts about his support for Daenerys. A Daenerys pregnancy would definitely throw a monkey wrench in his plans. A marriage alliance between Jon and Dany would also possibly complicate his plan. 

Now that Jaime is aware that Cersei lied and means to betray the alliance, he will be on his way North and will have to tell the allies that they should not expect the southern to come to their aid. If Tyrion made a deal, that betrayal will put him in a difficult position, whether or not to keep his promise to Cersei. 

I think the theory that Tyrion made a deal with Cersei is plausible but I'm curious about other people's thoughts.

[Minneapple]

9 hours ago, Blonde Gator said:

I believe we'll have none other than Howland Reed (and Meera) show up in Winterfell.  Howland should be able to receive "dreams" from Bran, as the former 3ER was able to send dreams to Jojen.  Bran will summon Howland Reed via a dream, (or he's been planting them for a while).    Perhaps Bran goes old school, and sends a raven, or better yet, really old school, and send a talking raven (they talked in the past, according to book canon).

Howland will be in on the Jon/Aegon reveal, along with Sam & Bran, and I believe he also has more to say about the Children of the Forest.  I suspect we'll also learn from Howland that the CotF are still around, and hiding out on the Isle of Faces, at the God's Eye, in the Riverlands.  I'm hoping we'll get to see someone make a trip there, for help from the CotF, and I would LOVE to see Graywater Watch, either on the way to the Isle of Faces, or perhaps in a retreat to the south when the Walkers are deep into the North. 

There is no reason for Howland Reed to show up now. In the books he's important because he knew Lyanna and he knew of Jon's parentage, but the show doesn't need him to reveal that. Sam and Bran have already done it. There's only six episodes next season and at least one, I'm assuming, will be devoted to the big white walker battle. No time for Howland Reed.

If Dany is pregnant I agree Jon would never let the baby be born a bastard. But I don't think it will be all hearts and flowers. Both of them will have some Issues to work through, otherwise there is no point in making Jon's parentage a big deal. And I do think one of them, probably Dany, will die.

3 hours ago, MadMouse said:

About the dream for spring title change, I would bet the child they have will be named the Spring King or Queen.

Oh God no. This sounds like something from a high school dance.

[Francie]

18 hours ago, doram said:

Off the top of my head, isn't it legal in the State of New York?

I've resisted weighing in on this, because we all can decide for ourselves whether we find sexual relationships with our aunts, uncles, nieces, or nephews repugnant or not. 

But I have to correct this statement. Here's a link to the case in question:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/11195658/Marriage-between-uncle-and-niece-is-ruled-legal-by-New-York-Court.html

This case dealt with an immigrant couple who, because of the nature of their marriage (more on that in a minute), the bride was facing deportation. So the court had an interest in not dividing this couple, who were already married, and turning this woman's life upside down.

The court's reasoning hinged on the fact that the aunt/mother and uncle/groom in question (so Daenerys and Rhaegar in our scenario) were half brother and sister and not full-blooded siblings.  As the court reasoned:

"The judges declared that while marriages between uncles and nieces or aunts and nephews were expressly forbidden, there was no such prohibition on half-uncles and half-nieces becoming husband and wife. Like first cousins, those in such unions will share an average of around one-eighth of the same DNA."

[Eyes High]

9 hours ago, Blonde Gator said:

I believe we'll have none other than Howland Reed (and Meera) show up in Winterfell.

The 7x04 (?) leaked outline made it clear that Meera has permanently exited the show. I'd be shocked if she showed up in Season 8.

 

1 hour ago, doram said:

Tl Dr... There's no overwhelming evidence that Targs are mad by nature or that a Jonerys baby will be some deformed monster. 

I think the tendency of the Targs towards madness is canon. That doesn't mean that all Targs are going to turn out mad, but the possibility for madness is I think indisputably much higher than with non-Targs.

In addition to all the Targs plagued by mental illness, there are also a number of mentally disabled Targs in the family history, which is also something to consider.

It does raise an interesting question, though. Aerys II's madness didn't manifest itself until later in his life. If GOT and ASOIAF end with a Jonerys baby intended to be king/queen when he/she comes of age, that will leave a lot of ambiguity as to whether said kid will turn out mad (like Aerys, Rhaegel, Baelor, Aerion Brightflame, etc.) or "simple" (Jaehaera, Vaella, Gael, etc.) and therefore unfit to rule. I wonder if GRRM is going to let the readership marinate in that uncertainty, or whether he's going to do a flashforward assuring us that the Jonerys baby grew into a fine queen/king who reigned wisely for 50 years or whatever (which seems like the sort of thing GRRM hated when JRR Tolkien did it with Aragorn).

Another possibility is that the Jonerys baby gets the Jon Snow treatment--raised in secret and lied to about his/her true identity--while Tyrion tries to implement some form of democracy, although I don't know how Dany could possibly keep her pregnancy secret with her being front and centre in the fight against the WWs. I guess it depends on whether or not GRRM wants a Targ restoration.

 

2 hours ago, MarySNJ said:

I think the theory that Tyrion made a deal with Cersei is plausible but I'm curious about other people's thoughts.

I was under the impression that the 7x07 summary and outline which were leaked had more dialogue after Tyrion's revelation that Cersei was pregnant where they come to some sort of rapprochement, so I'd be very surprised if we were meant to believe that Tyrion had reached some sort of sinister deal with Cersei.

Edited August 29, 2017 by Eyes High

[Edith]

21 minutes ago, Minneapple said:

If Dany is pregnant I agree Jon would never let the baby be born a bastard. But I don't think it will be all hearts and flowers. Both of them will have some Issues to work through, otherwise there is no point in making Jon's parentage a big deal. And I do think one of them, probably Dany, will die.

And this is the problem for Jon/Dany, not incest or who is the rightful heir to the throne but that one them is going to die or even both.

This season especifically gave a lot of red flags to both characters. 

[MarySNJ]

1 minute ago, Eyes High said:

The 7x04 (?) leaked outline made it clear that Meera has permanently exited the show. I'd be shocked if she showed up in Season 8.

 

I think the tendency of the Targs towards madness is canon. That doesn't mean that all Targs are going to turn out mad, but the possibility for madness is I think indisputably much higher than with non-Targs.

In addition to all the Targs plagued by mental illness, there are also a number of mentally disabled Targs in the family history, which is also something to consider.

It does raise an interesting question, though. Aerys II's madness didn't manifest itself until later in his life. If GOT and ASOIAF end with a Jonerys baby intended to be king/queen when he/she comes of age, that will leave a lot of ambiguity as to whether said kid will turn out mad (like Aerys, Aerion Brightflame, etc.) or "simple" (Jaehaera, Vaella, Gael, etc.) and therefore unfit to rule. I wonder if GRRM is going to let the readership marinate in that uncertainty, or whether he's going to do a flashforward assuring us that the Jonerys baby grew into a fine queen/king who reigned wisely for 50 years or whatever (which seems like the sort of thing GRRM hated when JRR Tolkien did it with Aragorn).

Another possibility is that the Jonerys baby gets the Jon Snow treatment--raised in secret and lied to about his/her true identity--while Tyrion tries to implement some form of democracy, although I don't know how Dany could possibly keep her pregnancy secret with her being front and centre in the fight against the WWs. I guess it depends on whether or not GRRM wants a Targ restoration.

 

I was under the impression that the 7x07 summary and outline which were leaked had more dialogue after Tyrion's revelation that Cersei was pregnant where they come to some sort of rapprochement, so I'd be very surprised if we were meant to believe that Tyrion had reached some sort of sinister deal with Cersei.

You're right about madness in the Warg line. It was said that whenever a Targaryen was born, the Gods flipped a coin - or something like that. However, since it seems like there's an element of prophesy affecting Jon's existence and parentage, my guess any child he would father with Daenerys would not have such problems. That's based on nothing but my own hope that another child doesn't have to suffer for prophesy's sake. 

I don't think there is anything sinister if Tyrion made a deal with Cersei. It's the sort of thing I can imagine him doing if he feels (a) desperate to get Cersei onboard with the plan to deal with the army of the dead or at least agree to the truce, and (b) consciously or not, because he feels guilty about Myrcella and Tommen and Tywin and wants to makes amends in some way. I can see him thinking he can persuade Daenerys that to make peace in the realm she could name Cersei's child as an heir, since Daenerys believes she can't have children. It would still be a treason for love, even if well intentioned. 

[Eyes High]

19 minutes ago, Edith said:

And this is the problem for Jon/Dany, not incest or who is the rightful heir to the throne but that one them is going to die or even both.

This season especifically gave a lot of red flags to both characters. 

I do get the sense that Jon and Dany's fates are tied together now. I would be surprised if one died but not the other. I also agree that there are a lot of death flags for both characters in Season 7, especially in 7x06 and 7x07.

Speaking of the whole business of Dany and the arrows, though, one thing about Dany dying by getting struck by an arrow--as opposed to getting crushed by or thrown off a dying Drogon--is that it would clear the way for Drogon to have another rider, which S7 also seemed to hint at.

Edited August 29, 2017 by Eyes High

[Edith]

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

I do get the sense that Jon and Dany's fates are tied together now. I would be surprised if one died but not the other. I also agree that there are a lot of death flags for both characters in Season 7, especially in 7x06 and 7x07.

Speaking of the whole business of Dany and the arrows, though, one thing about Dany dying by getting struck by an arrow--as opposed to getting crushed by or thrown off a dying Drogon--is that it would clear the way for Drogon to have another rider, which S7 also seemed to hint at.

 7x05 with the Lodos prophecy about the Drowned God would rise up and destroy Aegon the Conqueror. 

[Blonde Gator]

2 hours ago, Minneapple said:

There is no reason for Howland Reed to show up now. In the books he's important because he knew Lyanna and he knew of Jon's parentage, but the show doesn't need him to reveal that. Sam and Bran have already done it. There's only six episodes next season and at least one, I'm assuming, will be devoted to the big white walker battle. No time for Howland Reed.

If Dany is pregnant I agree Jon would never let the baby be born a bastard. But I don't think it will be all hearts and flowers. Both of them will have some Issues to work through, otherwise there is no point in making Jon's parentage a big deal. And I do think one of them, probably Dany, will die.

Oh God no. This sounds like something from a high school dance.

George R.R. Martin said a long time ago that he will appear*, and I believe his presence at the Tower of Joy, as well as Meera's mention of him at the Wall this season, is foreshadowing in the HBO series.  Why would they mention him at all if there's no payoff eventually?  GOT loves to do prior episode callbacks.  (Arya saying to Nymeria "That's not you", for example).

Howland Reed is not only important because he's the only person alive in Westeros who has first hand knowledge of what transpired at the Tower of Joy, but because he's linked to the CotF.  If the CotF are still extant in Westeros, Howland is the only one who knows where they are.  Remember, the crannogmen are rumored to have intermarried with the CotF long in the past, and likely still carry the green seer abilities.  Howland is the only person in ASOIAF who has been mentioned as having ever visited the Isle of Faces.  That's significant, as the God's Eye was ground zero for the CotF during the invasion of the First Men, when the CotF broke the Arm of Dorne.  It's probably THE most magical place in Westeros.

IMO, Howland Reed is going to show up before anyone on the show mentions his name again.  His green dreams will compel him to go to Winterfell.  And Meera will be by his side.  He's one of those characters in this story who has a purpose, which is not to "freeze to death" as Beric Dondarrion so eloquently told Jon, north of the Wall.  It will be apparent who he is when he shows up at Winterfell, because, Meera....and all of the Stark children know exactly who Howland Reed is, he's the backbone of one of the family's most important stories (Ned bested Arthur Dayne at the Tower of Joy, the best swordsman in Westeros, confirmed by Selmy, Jaime, and others).  <--Bran commented on this at his TOJ flashback with Bloodraven.  There is plenty of time for Howland Reed. 

At this point, I don't care if Jon and Dany marry and have a boat baby.  I want to have the blanks filled in on the big mysteries of the story.  The CotF and the reason the WW's are back can only come from one place (unless Missandei speaks White Walker).....from Howland Reed/CotF connection.

 

* This was from a Comicon panel (Philadelphia, 2001).  As you can see, at this point, GRRM was still pondering ASOIAF as a 5 book series, hence the odd question.

Quote

 

Question 3: It had been stated that Howland Reed would come out in The Winds of Winter, which is the 5th book. Will he still come in the 5th book (A Dance with Dragon)?

Answer: He will appear eventually.

 

Edited August 29, 2017 by Blonde Gator
Nymeria spelling

[Blonde Gator]

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

The 7x04 (?) leaked outline made it clear that Meera has permanently exited the show. I'd be shocked if she showed up in Season 8.

 

Yet we know that D&D changed up some things after the leak, yes? (Cersei's miscarriage).  I wouldn't put it past D&D to plant several false rumors, even amongst their production crew.  In fact, Kit Harrington said they filmed several scenes which were apparently plants to throw off too much nosiness/disloyalty on the part of staff, onlookers, and paps.

There has been entirely too much foreshadowing on the series about Howland for D&D not to pay it off.  Everyone in the North is going to be involved in the War for the Dawn.  That means the Reeds and Greywater Watch may at some point be a fallback position for the Army of the North as they flee before the Walkers.  There are several ways it could play out, but at this point with the way D&D have treated the Northern Lords.........Howland Reed is the ONE ally known to have actively helped the Stark children, and they won't forget it. 

I'll be shocked if we don't see Howland Reed.

Furthermore, I think D&D are playing up this Jon/Dany drama now, for the off-season (just like Jon's Ned Dead, Jon/Sansa at each other's throats in the last two off-seasons).  I'm convinced they're hoping to pull off a couple more "oh shit" moments that have nothing to do with Jon/Dany drama, nor the big battles. 

We shall just have to wait and see.  

[YaddaYadda]

16 minutes ago, Blonde Gator said:

His green dreams will compel him to go to Winterfell. 

Howland Reed doesn't have green dreams. 

[Blonde Gator]

Just now, YaddaYadda said:

Howland Reed doesn't have green dreams. 

Cites, please?

[YaddaYadda]

21 minutes ago, Blonde Gator said:

Cites, please?

It's in ASOS, when Meera is telling the story of the Knight of the Laughing Tree.

Quote

"Once there was a curious lad who lived in the Neck. He was small like all crannogmen, but brave and smart and strong as well. He grew up hunting and fishing and climbing trees, and learned all the magics of my people."
"Did he have green dreams like Jojen?
"No, but he could breath mud and run on leaves, and change earth to water and water to earth with no more than a whispered word. He could talk to trees and weave words and make castles appear and disappear. The lad knew the magics of the crannogs, but wanted more. Our people seldom travel far from home, you know. We're a small folk, and our ways seem queer to some, so the big people do not always treat us kindly. But this lad was bolder than most, and one day when he had grown to manhood he decided he would leave the crannogs and visit the Isle of Faces."

 

[MadMouse]

1 hour ago, doram said:

And how many of these non-Targs are brought p thinking they have the 'blood of the dragon', with almost-as-badass wealth and privilege, that they are - like their dragons - above the laws of good and men?

Basically, my point is that it's Canon that Targs are believed to have a greater possibility of madness. The books are written from 3rd-person limited. There's really no  way of knowing what's a universally regarded truth, someone's opinion or an objective fact. Factually, it's just as likely that the elements of madness in Targaryens are either exaggerated (Viserys, for example) or misconstrued for something else.

 

My point exactly. How much of this was true genetic madness and how much of it was a result of lifestyle, upbringing and nurture? Basically, was it really Aerys's nature (per magical DNA and inbreeding) or his nurture ( the egocentric, 'I'm a dragon in human form' dogma  spoon-fed from the cradle cobbled with a clear inferiority complex towards Tywin Lannister then mixed up with the imprisonment and ill-treatment)?

Yep, Aerys really didn't lose it until the Defiance and his imprisonment. Throw in the death of Steffon Baratheon who was his friend(irony) and then Varys whispering in his ear about traitors everywhere,

[Blonde Gator]

25 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

It's in ASOS, when Meera is telling the story of the Knight of the Laughing Tree.

 

Okay, that's pretty reliable.   Thank you.   However, that same passage cites him going to the Isle of Faces, as well as refer to some of Howland's magical abilities, doesn't it?   Magic & CotF either here or gone forever are endgame.

So even if he doesn't have green dreams, he still be summoned to Winterfell in the usual way.  Or Bran can reach him in the same way that it's been proposed that Bran's the one in Mad Aerys' head with "burn them all".   

[Eyes High]

2 hours ago, doram said:

And how many of these non-Targs are brought p thinking they have the 'blood of the dragon', with almost-as-badass wealth and privilege, that they are - like their dragons - above the laws of good and men?

There's believing that you're above the laws of gods and men, and then there's drinking wildfire because you think it will turn you into a dragon. 

There's absolutely no basis to claim that the Targs are not predisposed to madness. That's canon. GRRM has said as much many times. You may not like it, but that's another matter altogether. You may as well dispute whether the Starks' ancestral home is actually named Winterfell.

 

Quote

Basically, my point is that it's Canon that Targs are believed to have a greater possibility of madness. The books are written from 3rd-person limited. There's really no  way of knowing what's a universally regarded truth, someone's opinion or an objective fact. Factually, it's just as likely that the elements of madness in Targaryens are either exaggerated (Viserys, for example) or misconstrued for something else.

By that token, factually it's just as likely that Dany is in fact a secret Dayne who has been dyeing her black hair silver this whole time. I mean, who knows, right? There are no universally regarded truths, just opinions, right?

Look, as much as we can know anything in ASOIAF/TWOIAF, we know that Targs are predisposed to madness. It's part of the reality of that world as much as the fact that Winterfell is in the north and KL is in the south, and there is ample precedent in the Targ histories GRRM is so fond of writing about.

Now, that doesn't mean that a Jonerys baby is doomed to madness; Jon wasn't, and neither was Dany. However, to claim that Targ madness is nothing more than a false belief based on Targ privilege and propaganda is ridiculous. There is a real risk that a Jonerys baby would be born hideously deformed, mad or mentally disabled; there's ample precedent for all three in the Targ family tree.

 

1 hour ago, Blonde Gator said:

Yet we know that D&D changed up some things after the leak, yes? (Cersei's miscarriage).  I wouldn't put it past D&D to plant several false rumors, even amongst their production crew.  In fact, Kit Harrington said they filmed several scenes which were apparently plants to throw off too much nosiness/disloyalty on the part of staff, onlookers, and paps.

Sure, some things were changed, but D&D have known Bran and Meera's endgames for quite some time; if they intended her to exit the series permanently in S7, then that's exactly what happened. Not to mention that Meera's scene tied everything off between them nicely; with Meera's connection to Bran severed, there's no need for her in the story. Her role is over.

As for Kit's claim, we now know that Kit's statement was bullshit: all the scenes spied by onlookers and paps made it into Season 7. That doesn't help your point at all.

 

39 minutes ago, MadMouse said:

Yep, Aerys really didn't lose it until the Defiance and his imprisonment. Throw in the death of Steffon Baratheon who was his friend(irony) and then Varys whispering in his ear about traitors everywhere,

That doesn't negate the fact that there are several Targs in the Targ history who were canonically mad (Baelor the Blessed, for one), so that isn't of much assistance to your argument.

[MadMouse]

10 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

That doesn't negate the fact that there are several Targs in the Targ history who were canonically mad (Baelor the Blessed, for one), so that isn't of much assistance to your argument.

And other Houses didn't have mad rulers either?

[Minneapple]

4 hours ago, Blonde Gator said:

Yet we know that D&D changed up some things after the leak, yes? (Cersei's miscarriage).  I wouldn't put it past D&D to plant several false rumors, even amongst their production crew.  In fact, Kit Harrington said they filmed several scenes which were apparently plants to throw off too much nosiness/disloyalty on the part of staff, onlookers, and paps.

There has been entirely too much foreshadowing on the series about Howland for D&D not to pay it off.  Everyone in the North is going to be involved in the War for the Dawn.  That means the Reeds and Greywater Watch may at some point be a fallback position for the Army of the North as they flee before the Walkers.  There are several ways it could play out, but at this point with the way D&D have treated the Northern Lords.........Howland Reed is the ONE ally known to have actively helped the Stark children, and they won't forget it. 

I'll be shocked if we don't see Howland Reed.

Furthermore, I think D&D are playing up this Jon/Dany drama now, for the off-season (just like Jon's Ned Dead, Jon/Sansa at each other's throats in the last two off-seasons).  I'm convinced they're hoping to pull off a couple more "oh shit" moments that have nothing to do with Jon/Dany drama, nor the big battles. 

We shall just have to wait and see.  

Kit was lying about filming fake scenes. They put out those rumors when the filming scenes all leaked. 

I don't think there has been much foreshadowing about Howland at all. I don't understand the purpose he'd serve on the show. I understand he'll appear in the books, and he is a very important figure there, but at this point the show has completely veered off the books. The way the show goes nowadays, the northerners will flee the White Walkers and wind up at Dragonstone in, like, 10 minutes. 

[Wouter]

On 28-8-2017 at 1:08 PM, Eyes High said:

Well, Tycho Nestoris is supposed to be back for not one but two episodes in Season 8, so that will give someone Cersei to play off.

 

The big hanging spoiler is that the script and outlines had Cersei miscarrying near the end of 7x07, and she did not, which I assume means that that scene has been pushed to Season 8. The other big thing is that the outlines are very explicit that Tyrion is in love with Dany, but in the Season 7 finished product, there are no hints to that effect other than Tyrion looking troubled by boatsex, which leads me to wonder whether D&D scrapped that idea altogether, or whether they're planning to make Tyrion's love for Dany more of a sticking point in Season 8.

There were a few mild hints: Tyrion seemed extremely concerned when Dany took off to go save Jon with her supersonic dragons, Cersei called him out on his "foreign whores" (so she sees a Shae replacement in Dany) and there was his reaction to boatsex.

Besides Tycho, the Golden Company also needs some kind of commander. That may be the last (relatively) major role that gets cast.

On 28-8-2017 at 2:25 PM, Eyes High said:

I think we can also say at this point that Cleganebowl is, as the kids say, "fucking confirmed." Not sure about the circumstances, but I wouldn't be surprised if Arya was somehow involved given all the emphasis on the Hound's bond with Arya. Throw in Sansa, too, because she needs something to do in Season 8, although I find it difficult to believe she would ever head south willingly (unless staying up north meant certain death, I suppose).

 

I am a little confused, because the Season 7 outlines pushed Tyrion's unrequited love for Dany pretty hard, only for that to be more or less completely excised from the finished product. Has it been dropped, are they saving it for Season 8, or is something else going on?

Cleganebowl looks to be a thing. I note again this vision by Bran in book 1 (!):

"He looked south, and saw the great blue-green rush of the Trident. He saw his father pleading with the king, his face etched with grief. He saw Sansa crying herself to sleep at night, and he saw Arya watching in silence and holding her secrets hard in her heart. There were shadows all around them. One shadow was dark as ash, with the terrible face of a hound. Another was armored like the sun, golden and beautiful. Over them both loomed a giant in armor made of stone, but when he opened his visor, there was nothing inside but darkness and thick black blood."

I don't think this connection between Sansa, Arya, The Hound, Jaime and the mountain (explicitly as a zombie) has yet been played out, in books nor show.

As to why Sansa would head south - there are at least two possibilities: a kidnapping or murder attempt (by order of Cersei) or an order given by Jon and/or Dany to evacuate all non-fighters from Winterfell, after they learn the NK is already at large in the north. The final battle may be at the Trident, while Winterfell could possibly hold out under siege. In that case, the fewer mouths, the better.

Before season 7, I had predicted (based on early leaks from Lads, then not yet a trusted source) that Sansa and Arya would turn on LF together, spurred on by knowledge given to them by Bran. I wrote at the time that the equivalent book storyline could take place in the Vale without major change, and I note that a lot of Sansa's "game" in the last couple of episodes seemed about getting lord Royce and his most important knights on her side (and against LF). In essence, probably Sansa's Vale storyline from the books (minus Harry, and plus Arya which may well join Sansa in the Vale). If so, Sansa may be south in the books in the same way that Brienne has been south in the books, and just like a contrived reason was found to reunite Brienne with Jaime in the south in the show, so too may a contrived reason be found to get Sansa and Arya south again.

As for Tyrion/Dany, as explained above I don't think it was dropped entirely. There are some hints. Where they are going with this, I don't know. I hope Tyrion doesn't end up betraying the couple out of jealousy. Especially not after he brought them together in the first place (one of his better ideas this season!).

There's also the matter of Melisandre (and high priestess Kinvara, will we see her again?) and Varys. Both seem to be guaranteed deaths in S8. But in which plot(s)?

On 28-8-2017 at 7:22 PM, SimoneS said:

I think that you have season 8 nailed. I think that Dany won't care that they are related, but since she thinks that she is infertile, she might demand that Jon marries someone else to continue the Targaryen line which will cause him to go all broody. Of course, Dany will be pregnant which will reunite them. Moving Cercei's miscarriage to season 8 means that Dany's pregnancy will occur in the same episode. I think episode 5 most likely. Also, I wouldn't be surprised if it seems like Tyrion is causing problems between them out of jealousy. 

 

Yep, there will be this big set up of a conflict between Jon and Dany that will amount to naught.

I could see Dany, if she indeed is barren (or if not, as long as she thinks she is), indeed demand from Jon that he marries someone else to continue the line. If there is a miracle baby it would be a short lived conflict, agreed.

5 hours ago, Eyes High said:

I do get the sense that Jon and Dany's fates are tied together now. I would be surprised if one died but not the other. I also agree that there are a lot of death flags for both characters in Season 7, especially in 7x06 and 7x07.

Speaking of the whole business of Dany and the arrows, though, one thing about Dany dying by getting struck by an arrow--as opposed to getting crushed by or thrown off a dying Drogon--is that it would clear the way for Drogon to have another rider, which S7 also seemed to hint at.

Other than the arrow references (all specifically for Dany), what kind of "death flags" do you see?

[SimoneS]

2 hours ago, Wouter said:

As to why Sansa would head south - there are at least two possibilities: a kidnapping or murder attempt (by order of Cersei) or an order given by Jon and/or Dany to evacuate all non-fighters from Winterfell, after they learn the NK is already at large in the north. The final battle may be at the Trident, while Winterfell could possibly hold out under siege. In that case, the fewer mouths, the better....

[sic]

There's also the matter of Melisandre (and high priestess Kinvara, will we see her again?) and Varys. Both seem to be guaranteed deaths in S8. But in which plot(s)?

I have been thinking that Cersei will attempt to kidnap Sansa, Arya, and Bran to use them a leverage to keep Jon out of the upcoming war between her and Daenerys. After all, they have find something for the monstrous Cersei to do until the Dany and Jon are done with the NK. It would be a way to put the noncombatants in danger and cull them. I can see a group of comprised of Missandei, Tyrion, Varys, Sansa, Arya, Bran, and Melisandre (I am confident that she will return) being sent somewhere safe, maybe to the Vale, with Brienne, Podrick, Gendry, and a group of northern bannermen for protection. They are attacked killing Melisandre, Varys, and maybe even Podrick. Maybe Nymeria and her pack come to their aid.

Edited August 30, 2017 by SimoneS

[domina89]

So Jon and Dany are on their way to Winterfell where they should meet up with Sam. That's going to be one seriously awkward conversation...

Jon: "Hey Sam, this is Daenerys Targaryen, my queen and love of my life . Your Grace, this is Samwell Tarly, my bestest friend in the whole world."

Dany: "Nice to meet you, Sam...um, did you say Tarly?"

Sam: "Yes"

Dany: "Do you happen to be related to Randall and Dickon Tarly?"

Sam: "Why yes, that's my father and brother."

Bran: "Her dragon roasted them. It was beautiful."

Dany: "..........."

Jon & Sam: ".........................."

[MadMouse]

About Jon finding out the truth of his heritage. I know people think its going to be this huge blow to him, but I don't think it will be. Of course it will be shocking and throw him for a loop. But he'll finally know he just didn't have one parent who loved him but three. We can argue how stupid Rhaegar and Lyanna to death but they did love each other and he's product of that love. That's huge for a bastard, in a world were they're considered born out lust. And the other is Ned, they've hammered home how honorable he was this season, Jon tells Jorah he was good all the way through. But Ned did exactly what Aemon spoke to Jon about, he sacrificed duty and honor, for the love of a woman his sister and a child Jon. Put that to together with his conversation with Theon, not just about embracing both parts of himself but when he talks about not being perfect and making mistakes. The knowledge that Ned wasn't this perfect figure that I think Jon tries to live up too will be a defining moment for him. Ned was still a great man in spite of sacrificing his honor and was actually a better man for it.  If they have Jon being conflicted about Dany I also think this will put an end to it. Loving her doesn't make him any less honorable and damn the world if they think so.  If Ned can do it for the love of a woman, so can he.

Edited August 30, 2017 by MadMouse

[SimoneS]

41 minutes ago, MadMouse said:

About Jon finding out the truth of his heritage. I know people think its going to be this huge blow to him, but I don't think it will be. Of course it will be shocking and throw him for a loop. But he'll finally know he just didn't have one parent who loved him but three. We can argue how stupid Rhaegar and Lyanna to death but they did love each other and he's product of that love. That's huge for a bastard, in a world were they're considered born out lust. And the other is Ned, they've hammered home how honorable he was this season, Jon tells Jorah he was good all the way through. But Ned did exactly what Aemon spoke to Jon about, he sacrificed duty and honor, for the love of a woman his sister and a child Jon. Put that to together with his conversation with Theon, not just about embracing both parts of himself but when he talks about not being perfect and making mistakes. The knowledge that Ned wasn't this perfect figure that I think Jon tries to live up too will be a defining moment for him. Ned was still a great man in spite of sacrificing his honor and was actually a better man for it.  If they have Jon being conflicted about Dany I also think this will put an end to it. Loving her doesn't make him any less honorable and damn the world if they think so.  If Ned can do it for the love of a woman, so can he.

I agree. It will no doubt take time for Jon to process the truth. I think that he will pull away Dany, not telling her the reason why, causing a rift between them. Once he is ready to move past it and tells her the truth, she will pull away from him because of his claim to the throne and her belief that she is infertile.

[anamika]

2 hours ago, MadMouse said:

The knowledge that Ned wasn't this perfect figure that I think Jon tries to live up too will be a defining moment for him. Ned was still a great man in spite of sacrificing his honor and was actually a better man for it.

In fact it will only increase his admiration of Ned even more. The only thing he holds against Ned in the books, is him siring a bastard. If he knows that even this is not true, he's going to think that Ned is the greatest ever. He will bring out even more Ned quotes in conversations.

Edited August 30, 2017 by anamika

[HunterHunted]

I think it would be interesting if Cersei's rule collapses because one million people saw dragons flying over King's Landing and numerous Queen's Guard and Lannister soldiers saw a skeleton try to kill people, heard Cersei promise to help fight against the army of the dead, and realized that Cersei had completely reneged on her promise to send soldiers to the north. Coupled with her destruction of the Great Sept, the people finally realize that the nobility doesn't give two shits about them. So by the time Jon and Daenerys got back to Kings Landing, there is a quasi-democracy in the southern part of Westeros. The Kingsmoot, election of the Lord Commander, and election of Jon as the King in the North serving as examples.

Ever since Cersei announced that she was pregnant, I've been convinced that the fetus will die during gestation and Cersei will be carrying a calcified fetus, which might actually motivated Jaime to strangle the life from her.

In a decade, I'm sure someone (Ed Sheeran's character) will be penning an Rains of Castamere type song about how Winter has come for House Frey.