Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

[Eyes High]

1 hour ago, Wouter said:

As for Sansa and Tyrion, Hannah Murray did make that odd remark about Tyrion and Sansa in an interview some months ago (was it a question about her favourite GOT pairings, or something like that?). She doesn't seem the type to troll, unlike Turner for example, so unless she was referring back to S2/S3 one would expect some more and different interactions between Tyrion and Sansa. Of course, it's possible Hannah was deliberately being misleading, but a bit of a weird time and place to do so.

Hannah Murray was asked about her favourite pairings (at a con in late May of last year) and she said Jaime/Brienne and that she was also a fan of Sansa/Tyrion. 

1 hour ago, cambridgeguy said:

That does raise an unanswered question about what will happen to the Stark name in the future.  Unlike the Lannisters, who have all sorts of minor cousins running around,  we've apparently seen all of the Starks who are still alive.  Bran doesn't seem to be the type to be fathering children anymore, Arya doesn't seem to want to settle down and have kids, and Sansa is probably sick of being married off as a political tool and might decide to stay single.  Does the family name go extinct like we've seen with the Martells, Tyrells, and Baratheons?  If it's down to Jon (and he survives to have many children) will they be named Stark even though Targaryean is the more elite name?

Stark succession is one of the big questions of ASOIAF/GOT, but we may never find out whether the Stark line survives. I doubt Sansa and Arya will end up with anyone. Show Sansa’s costuming in S7 (and beyond, from what we’ve seen) is intended to reflect her determination never to be touched again according to Michele Clapton, and I doubt very much that Arya is going to end up with anyone. And even if Sansa and Arya do end up with someone, short of a flashforward, we’re never going to find out whether they have any kids. So the issue will be left to the imagination of the viewers.

[anamika]

So another person who attended the premiere and spilled the deets on ONTD had this to say:

https://ohnotheydidnt.livejournal.com/114385840.html?thread=19376385712#t19376385712

Quote

I should have prefaced Sam tells Jon RIGHT after he finds out Dany killed his father and brother, it's quite sad. As he runs out of his meeting with her he runs into Bran who tell Sam that he (Sam) needs to be the one to tell Jon because Jon trust him more than anyone. So Sam finds Jon in the crypts and starts by asking Jon if he knew what she had done to his family, followed by him asking of Jon would have done that. To which Jon replies that he's killed before, but Sam maintains that he has mercy. Leading into the fact he's verified something, and then tells Jon the whole truth. Jon at first refuses to believe because he didn't want to believe that the honorable Ned Stark would have lied to him his whole life, but Same reminds him he did this for his true mother, Lyanna, to keep him safe. And he seemingly accepts this. But it's left open ended as to what this means for the future of the throne, the war, and Jon.

So in this take, Jon is like - I have done it too. I think we will have to watch to see how the scene plays out. This is more in line with season 7 Jon who thought it would be hypocritical to criticize Dany's war when he himself waged war against the Boltons. 

I only hope that there's more to this reveal than - "And he seemingly accepts this". If all Jon is allowed is 2 seconds to process that his life has been a lie and when we next meet him in episode 2, he's accepted it and moved on then lol!

At this rate Dany will be like - 'I'm pregnant'. Everyone - 'Cool'. Next scene.

[nikma]

9 minutes ago, anamika said:

I think we will have to watch to see how the scene plays out.

Good idea. 

[GraceK]

Where’s Ghost? I would have liked to see him right away. 

It would have been nice to hear Sam or Jon finally mention Aemon. Sam was pretty impressed hearing about all the things Dany was up too when he reading letters about her to Aemon, ( freeing slaves, etc) so he should have some idea that she has layers to her personality besides burning people.  I have no problem with Sam being blindsided with his brothers death, but after all the things Sam has seen, done and experienced it seems out of character for him to be purposely trying to usurp Daenarys claim immediately before a massive war with the AOTD, and right after throwing this bomb in his best friends face.  He’s the one who convinced Jon to ask Roose Bolton for men for the Nights Watch even though Roose personally killed Robb. He counseled Jon that there were more important things . I feel like he would definitely tell Jon the truth about his parentage, but not as a way to leverage trying to have Dany bend the knee and try to cause dissent between them 🤷🏻‍♀️ . I guess we have to see how it plays onscreen. 

Edited April 4, 2019 by GraceK

[anamika]

The Telegraph's review:

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Directed by GoT regular David Nutter, the episode, as yet officially unnamed, is heavy focussed around reunions – many of them familial and long-awaited, between fond siblings (“all Arya has really thought about for a long time is reuniting with Jon Snow again”, said Williams on the red carpet) – others less so; the most unsuited of former wives and husbands are also flung together again (Sansa and Tyrion?) along with a would-be murderer and his seriously damaged would-be victim (Jaime and Bran?)

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Unlike some season openers in years gone by, this eighth premiere contains no epic battles or large-scale set pieces, but what violence there is, is dark, brutal and unsettling. That’s balanced out, however, by a noticeably lighter, more humorous tone, with plenty of witty one-liners.

Theon's rescue of Yara?

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Daenerys Targaryan (Emilia Clarke) soon learns what the audience already knows from last season too – that the wall has been ruptured, and one of her dragons killed and conscripted into the army of the dead by the Night King.

But that’s not Danaerys’s only challenge. Fans of the show will know that her relationship with Jon Snow (Kit Harrington) was taken to the next level in the season seven finale. But now she’s on his home turf. With his snide, sniffy sisters (“women supporting women” is not, it seems, a motto that has yet reached Westeros), and a population of frosty locals. Not that the chilly welcome appears to be cooling Daenerys and Jon’s PDAs.

Quote

There are plenty more new and surprisingly collaborations too – some merely political, others carnal, with, no doubt, an eventual eye to the political. But Cersei Lannister is one notable omission from the convoys heading north, remaining at King’s Landing – constantly scheming, and apparently, not letting her bed get cold in Jaime’s absence.

[Happy Harpy]

1 hour ago, WindyNights said:

Weaker Tully genes is stronger than Stark blood apparently. 

And the Durrandon gene is apparently all-powerful if it's passed through a man.

3 hours ago, Happy Harpy said:

 The "genetics of Westeros" debate is another one that has been done to death, and I don't think it will matter [...]

3 hours ago, Wouter said:

As for Winterfell and the AOTD: I still expect part of the castle to withstand the assault, with the enemy taking big losses. 

The enemy should take big losses, relying on filming spoilers that Melisandre manages to turn part of the AOTD against the NK -it was filmed at the quarry so supposedly, it was at WF.

About this, if Melisandre arrives during the 8x03 battle it's going to be extra deus ex machina; if she arrives in 8x02 with the full parentage "drama" unrolling, the 58 minutes are going to be pretty crowded. Right now, without full season leaks/the big picture, it would make more sense to me if the Volantis escadron joined the Stargaryen survivors in 8x04 (the long mystery episode) and fought the NK in KL afterwards, but anyway.

I don't remember the specific mention, by the way, I think it was said she turned "the dead". I'm curious to see if it's the wights, the WW, both, or wights through their WW "sire".

If the image of Dany in front of Dragonstone's fireplace in the last teaser trailer means that Stargaryen HQ has relocated there in 8x04, it doesn't bode well for WF. 

[SeanC]

52 minutes ago, anamika said:

Theon's rescue of Yara?

My guess would be that’s referring to the White Walkers attacking the Umbers.

[Eyes High]

More grist for the Tyrion betrayal mill (via /Freefolk):

Peter Dinklage was asked about Tyrion's favourite line in the show said "Yeah, I don't want to give it away. You'll figure it out," implying it's a line from Season 8. Friki's source said that Bran nailed Tyrion with the "I never bet against my family" line (which was never actually in the show), then changed it to "Family first" (something Tyrion never said, either), so we'll see.

Potential grist for the "Jonerys leave Westeros voluntarily and let everyone else sort themselves out" mill (from Mr_Freeload):

During Jon and Dany's little romantic dragon ride to a remote location (a waterfall?), Jon says "We could live here for a thousand years and nobody would find us."

Potential grist for the "The ending's going to be super sad" mill:

Gwendoline Christie in one of her red carpet premiere interviews called the ending "devastating" and "awful."

Quote

others less so; the most unsuited of former wives and husbands are also flung together again (Sansa and Tyrion?)along with a would-be murderer and his seriously damaged would-be victim (Jaime and Bran?)

Definitely Sansa/Tyrion and Jaime/Bran, although "flung together" seems like an exaggeration given that all that happens is Sansa and Tyrion having a single scene alone.

Edited April 5, 2019 by Eyes High

[Smad]

2 hours ago, GraceK said:

Where’s Ghost? I would have liked to see him right away. 

I thought everybody agreed that Dany has been wearing him since last Season.

[anamika]

1 hour ago, SeanC said:

My guess would be that’s referring to the White Walkers attacking the Umbers.

I thought the guy said that we just see Tormund and Beric find Wight Umber or his body - and we don't actually see the attack. I don't think the premiere actually shows any WW?

Richard Dormer in his 'Build' interview described the first episode as a 'teaser' and not really spoilery - a taste of things to come.

Dormer on Beric:

"I think he (Beric) is literally going to run into the arms of death. But he will do so if he thinks that it's a good enough sacrifice"

Edited April 5, 2019 by anamika

[Eyes High]

1 minute ago, anamika said:

Richard Dormer in his 'Build' interview described the first episode as a 'teaser' and not really spoilery - a taste of things to come.

Yeah, you don't screen an episode for more than 6,000 people if you're overly worried about information getting out about it (which ties into my theory that HBO was trying to give Friki just enough rope to hang himself by waiting until he leaked the 8x01 episode summary to lower the boom).

[Happy Harpy]

5 hours ago, anamika said:

I thought the guy said that we just see Tormund and Beric find Wight Umber or his body - and we don't actually see the attack. I don't think the premiere actually shows any WW?

Ned Umber is a 10 y/o boy, imo the sight of a wightified child would justify the use of "unsettling" and "dark" especially with a journalist.

Friki talked about the NK attacking Castle Black at the end of 8x01 but I'm not sure it stayed in the final cut. It might have been swapped with Jaime's arrival.

[SimoneS]

4 hours ago, Happy Harpy said:

Friki talked about the NK attacking Castle Black at the end of 8x01 but I'm not sure it stayed in the final cut. It might have been swapped with Jaime's arrival.

Yes, it seems like the end of the episode was edited after Friki's source saw it or read the dialogue.  

Quote

12 hours ago, anamika said:

So another person who attended the premiere and spilled the deets on ONTD had this to say:

https://ohnotheydidnt.livejournal.com/114385840.html?thread=19376385712#t19376385712

So in this take, Jon is like - I have done it too. I think we will have to watch to see how the scene plays out. This is more in line with season 7 Jon who thought it would be hypocritical to criticize Dany's war when he himself waged war against the Boltons. 

I only hope that there's more to this reveal than - "And he seemingly accepts this". If all Jon is allowed is 2 seconds to process that his life has been a lie and when we next meet him in episode 2, he's accepted it and moved on then lol!

I agree that in this report of Jon's reaction is more recognizable and logical. He remembers how difficult these decisions are that he has too executed people. Sam's talk about Jon having mercy is still the misogyny running through the story, but it is early days.

Honestly, I only see Jon getting one episode to brood. Dany will want to know what is wrong as he stands brooding at his mother's statue. He will tell her. She will be shaken, but probably news will come about the attack on Castle Black and they have a battle to fight so there won't be time to talk and resolve things for awhile.    

Edited April 5, 2019 by SimoneS

[screamin]

2 hours ago, SimoneS said:

Honestly, I only see Jon getting one episode to brood. Dany will want to know what is wrong as he stands brooding at his mother's statue. He will tell her. 

Will he, though? It would be the logical thing to do, given that he can't lie convincingly to save his life, but it means telling her the queenship she's built her whole life around and killed his BFF's family to protect the authority of is a lie. They've only known each other a short time, he can't know how she'll react to have that fundamental assumption kicked out from under her - not to mention how her armies may react. And he has no evidence besides creepy Bran's vision and Sam's old book - neither of which can be considered either conclusive or coming from an objective source.

I think Jon will decide that, since he doesn't want the Iron Throne and letting the truth out will hurt his bride and start a quarrel among their forces about power transfers at the exact moment they need to be united, he'll keep this info quiet and consider it 'noble' of himself to do so. This will probably anger Sam, who's made up his mind (however unfairly) that Dany's a monster, and he may reveal the truth in public (maybe in some dramatic theatrical gesture the way he influenced the LC election in Jon's favor.)

Edited April 5, 2019 by screamin

[SimoneS]

13 minutes ago, screamin said:

Will he, though? It would be the logical thing to do, given that he can't lie convincingly to save his life, but it means telling her the queenship she's built her whole life around and killed his BFF's family to protect the authority of is a lie. They've only known each other a short time, he can't know how she'll react to have that fundamental assumption kicked out from under her - not to mention how her armies may react. And he has no evidence besides creepy Bran's vision and Sam's old book - neither of which can be considered either conclusive or coming from an objective source.

I think Jon will decide that, since he doesn't want the Iron Throne and letting the truth out will hurt his bride and start a quarrel among their forces about power transfers at the exact moment they need to be united, he'll keep this info quiet and consider it 'noble' of himself to do so. This will probably anger Sam, who's made up his mind (however unfairly) that Dany's a monster, and he may reveal the truth in public (maybe in some dramatic theatrical gesture the way he influenced the LC election in Jon's favor.)

"His bride." I like that. You are probably right about how events will unfold. It would be way more dramatic for Sam to make an emotional declaration about Jon being the heir to the Iron Throne in front of everyone as they make plans for the battle ahead. Goodness knows what he thinks that he is accomplishing. He is lucky that Dany is a better ruler and person that all the Northerners know. I am always struck by how over dramatic and emotional the men on GOT are most of the time. 

Edited April 5, 2019 by SimoneS

[Edith]

13 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Potential grist for the "Jonerys leave Westeros voluntarily and let everyone else sort themselves out" mill (from Mr_Freeload):

During Jon and Dany's little romantic dragon ride to a remote location (a waterfall?), Jon says "We could live here for a thousand years and nobody would find us."

That sounds a lot like the Ygritte/Jon scene in the cave, and didn't Drogo said something similar to Dany in the HOTU vision back in season 2?

[Brn2bwild]

If Sam and the North start giving Dany a hard time about BBQing the Tarlys, I hope Arya stands up and says: "Dudes, I exterminated House Frey.  Perspective."

[YaddaYadda]

1 hour ago, screamin said:

And he has no evidence besides creepy Bran's vision and Sam's old book - neither of which can be considered either conclusive or coming from an objective source.

That may be the reason he is riding Rhaegal before any sort of reveal. 

Edited April 5, 2019 by YaddaYadda

[domina89]

14 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Potential grist for the "Jonerys leave Westeros voluntarily and let everyone else sort themselves out" mill (from Mr_Freeload):

During Jon and Dany's little romantic dragon ride to a remote location (a waterfall?), Jon says "We could live here for a thousand years and nobody would find us."

I have believed for a very long time that this is a very real possible ending for them if they survive.  In his conversation with Maester Aemon, Aemon tells him that "love is the death of duty," but a very young Jon scoffs at that idea.  Then Jon lost Ygritte as a result of his choice of duty over love.  I think an older, less idealistic Jon will see that love is, indeed, more important and will, along with Dany, make the decision to peace out and leave a council to rule Westeros.  I think that also fits with Emilia's comment about her final scene: "Knowing that is going to be a lasting flavor in someone's mouth of what Daenerys is ...."  To me this could imply she's not happy that Dany might selfishly choose her own happiness over helping rebuild a war-torn Westeros.  

Edited April 5, 2019 by domina89
spelling error

[Minneapple]

37 minutes ago, Brn2bwild said:

If Sam and the North start giving Dany a hard time about BBQing the Tarlys, I hope Arya stands up and says: "Dudes, I exterminated House Frey.  Perspective."

Well, nobody is really pushing Arya as queen though. I mean everyone in this universe has done bad things. But talking about breaking the wheel and then burning the Tarlys doesn't compute. It's exactly what the Mad King would have done. I will say that Dany at least has the grace to tell Sam what she did, and doesn't seem to make any excuses for it. That's why I think it might be as big a Moment for her as it is for Sam. 

I could see Jon easily leaving everything behind. I have a harder time with Dany; but maybe she'll get her house with the red door and the lemon tree.

Edited April 5, 2019 by Minneapple

[anamika]

33 minutes ago, domina89 said:

In his conversation with Maester Aemon, Aemon tells him that "love is the death of duty," but a very young Jon scoffs at that idea.  Then Jon lost Ygritte as a result of his choice of duty over love.  I think an older, less idealistic Jon will see that love is, indeed, more important and will, along with Dany, make the decision to peace out and leave a council to rule Westeros. 

In the books, Jon has already chosen love over duty and paid a swift price with his life. He's pretty much destroyed the NW as an institution by interfering in the politics of the North and rallied a bunch of wildlings to go attack Ramsay - all to save his little sister.

I don't see him having to make this choice again in the books. And if the show is having the same ending for Jon and Dany as the books, then...

It's possible of course that they are both just tired of all the backstabbing, betrayal, struggle for power at the end of it all and just decide they want nothing to do with all this and leave for the house with the red door. But we have to see how the show justifies this if it happens.

Edited April 5, 2019 by anamika

[onyxrose81]

2 minutes ago, Minneapple said:

Well, nobody is really pushing Arya as queen though. I mean everyone in this universe has done bad things. But talking about breaking the wheel and then burning the Tarlys doesn't compute. It's exactly what the Mad King would have done. I will say that Dany at least has the grace to tell Sam what she did, and doesn't seem to make any excuses for it. That's why I think it might be as big a Moment for her as it is for Sam. 

I could see Jon easily leaving everything behind. I have a harder time with Dany; but maybe she'll get her house with the red door and the lemon tree.

Daenerys has been so laser-focused on getting the throne back because she thought she was the last of her family and wanted it back as a connection to them.  I think a lot of people tend to miss that because it really hasn't been stressed enough in the show.  With Jon, she has family and also the possibility of adding to it.  I think it makes sense if they both choose to nope the eff out of Westeros.

[anamika]

Joe Dempsie interview:

Quote

As for season 8, Dempsie says Gendry will take “an active and fairly predictable role” in preparing for the great war against the Army of the Dead and fighting in the brutal big battle.

“It was certainly the most daunting block of shooting that I’ve ever seen,” he says, referring to the 11 weeks of night shoots to film the massive Winterfell attack. “You become nocturnal. Every night there’s a tipping point around 2 a.m. where everybody starts behaving a little bit weird. The stuff we were shooting was incredible to be a part of. Whenever anybody asked over the years, ‘What would you like for Gendry?’ I’ve always sort of said that all I really want was to be there for the end game. So to be swinging a mace around — that’s my weapon this year — it’s in the middle of the night. You’re out there with 200 actors, freezing cold… it’s no acting required. We’re probably never going to see something like this again.”

And then there’s also Gendry’s reunion with Arya (Maisie Williams), who he last saw in season 3.

“He’s reunited with Arya again. So a lot for Gendry is those two catching up and reconnecting and finding out what they’ve been doing. I really enjoyed working with Maisie in seasons 1-3 and I even said back then she’s one of the most talented actors I’ve ever worked with — not just young actors, but actors in general. To watch her get even better, not just Thrones but in various other things, I was looking forward to getting back on set with Maisie.”

https://ew.com/tv/2019/04/05/game-of-thrones-gendry-joe-dempsie/

So looks like Arya/Gendry is all set to go.

[WindyNights]

21 minutes ago, anamika said:

In the books, Jon has already chosen love over duty and paid a swift price with his life. He's pretty much destroyed the NW as an institution by interfering in the politics of the North and rallied a bunch of wildlings to go attack Ramsay - all to save his little sister.

I don't see him having to make this choice again in the books. And if the show is having the same ending for Jon and Dany as the books, then...

It's possible of course that they are both just tired of all the backstabbing, betrayal, struggle for power at the end of it all and just decide they want nothing to do with all this and leave for the house with the red door. But we have to see how the show justifies this if it happens.

Choices don't stop even when they make the wrong choice.

Love versus duty is the overall theme running alongside Jon and Dany's stories.

It'll continue to pop up throughout their story. 

[cambridgeguy]

3 hours ago, SimoneS said:

Honestly, I only see Jon getting one episode to brood.

Jon Snow's brooding cannot be limited to just one episode.  It's what he's best at, after all.  He has so many things to brood about - his true parentage, the coming battle against the dead, the discontent of the Northerners, whatever he thinks Cersei has planned, winter in general, etc. 

14 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Gwendoline Christie in one of her red carpet premiere interviews called the ending "devastating" and "awful."

She could just be previewing what some vocal fans will say.  There is absolutely no ending that will not result in some fans talking about how stupid Benioff and Weiss are.

[Minneapple]

2 minutes ago, cambridgeguy said:

There is absolutely no ending that will not result in some fans talking about how stupid Benioff and Weiss are.

Part of me is reading and listening to all these interviews with raised brows, like "really? Devastating? Unpredictable? Beautiful? REALLY?" We've all met D&D's writing and we recognize this tree. 

[Eyes High]

33 minutes ago, Minneapple said:

Part of me is reading and listening to all these interviews with raised brows, like "really? Devastating? Unpredictable? Beautiful? REALLY?" We've all met D&D's writing and we recognize this tree. 

The dialogue will be D&D’s, but the bones are GRRM’s. Even this Winterfell battle came straight from GRRM.

53 minutes ago, anamika said:

Joe Dempsie interview:

https://ew.com/tv/2019/04/05/game-of-thrones-gendry-joe-dempsie/

So looks like Arya/Gendry is all set to go.

If he’s talking about it, that makes it even more likely that Gendry perishes in 8x03.

[Happy Harpy]

18 minutes ago, GraceK said:

You know, I was so excited about season 8 and now I’m having anxiety. 

It's normal, imo. All of us here have invested several years loving this show, commenting on this board, getting passionate/stubborn etc. and if the end is unsatisfying, the let-down will be huge.  It will feel like a tremendous waste of time and energy. So now, in a way, we're about to jump from the Winterfell walls...

You know what's great against pre-season anxiety? Knowing what's going to happen in advance. #Vindicated 😀

I expected the worst before S6 (fear that Dany would be raped and tortured by the Dothraki, for example) and it turned out to be my favorite. I'm going to keep my fingers crossed so that same happens here.

[stagmania]

18 hours ago, Eyes High said:

During Jon and Dany's little romantic dragon ride to a remote location (a waterfall?), Jon says "We could live here for a thousand years and nobody would find us."

Oh man, Jon is absolutely going to die.

[Wouter]

20 hours ago, Happy Harpy said:

The enemy should take big losses, relying on filming spoilers that Melisandre manages to turn part of the AOTD against the NK -it was filmed at the quarry so supposedly, it was at WF.

About this, if Melisandre arrives during the 8x03 battle it's going to be extra deus ex machina; if she arrives in 8x02 with the full parentage "drama" unrolling, the 58 minutes are going to be pretty crowded. Right now, without full season leaks/the big picture, it would make more sense to me if the Volantis escadron joined the Stargaryen survivors in 8x04 (the long mystery episode) and fought the NK in KL afterwards, but anyway.

I don't remember the specific mention, by the way, I think it was said she turned "the dead". I'm curious to see if it's the wights, the WW, both, or wights through their WW "sire".

If the image of Dany in front of Dragonstone's fireplace in the last teaser trailer means that Stargaryen HQ has relocated there in 8x04, it doesn't bode well for WF. 

Not necessarily, Dragonstone is close to KL and safe from the (probably still marauding) bands of undead. It would be an ideal base, both to prepare an attack on Cersei and/or to intercept an attack by the NK on KL. 

"The return of the king" didn't have the Rohirrim, Gandalf, Aragorn and co  remain in Helm's Deep either, even though that place didn't (fully) fall. Helm's Deep was far too much away from Gondor and Mordor, just as Winterfell is far away from KL.

Interesting point about Melisandre. AFAIK that spoiler is still in doubt though. Anyway, Melisandre (and probably other red priests) must have a role to play. I'm still wondering why Kinvara was in the show (excellent piece of dialogue, anyway). 

19 hours ago, Eyes High said:

More grist for the Tyrion betrayal mill (via /Freefolk):

Peter Dinklage was asked about Tyrion's favourite line in the show said "Yeah, I don't want to give it away. You'll figure it out," implying it's a line from Season 8. Friki's source said that Bran nailed Tyrion with the "I never bet against my family" line (which was never actually in the show), then changed it to "Family first" (something Tyrion never said, either), so we'll see.

When and where did Friki retract "the bet"? That's a pretty big thing that I missed. I don't think "family first" would sound like a favourite line, anyway. To top some lines he already had way earlier, it should be good indeed.

4 hours ago, anamika said:

In the books, Jon has already chosen love over duty and paid a swift price with his life. He's pretty much destroyed the NW as an institution by interfering in the politics of the North and rallied a bunch of wildlings to go attack Ramsay - all to save his little sister.

It was the other way round - the politics of the north were interfering with the institution. It was Ramsay who was coming to get "Arya" + Stannis' family (book)/Sansa (show). Moreover, the Boltons weren't about to tolerate a threat to their power, sacred institution or not.  In the books, Jon didn't even have "Arya" nor the real Arya to give in to Ramsay's demands. And whether giving Selyse/Shireen/Melisandre (book) or Sansa (show) to Ramsay would have been an honourable course of action is highly debatable.

Edited April 5, 2019 by Wouter

[shireenbamfatheon]

Cersei trying to buy Bronn's services to assassinate Tyrion really does put a spin in the "Tyrion is a traitor" theory. At this point, I feel like Friki is clinging to it out of sheer stubbornness and is projecting his own assumptions onto Tyrion's motives. From the leaks, Tyrion comes across as naive and gullible in the first episode, but in no way deliberately deceptive. I think Tyrion is going to be completely shattered once he finds out the truth and that he'll end up being the valonqar in the end, just as Cersei predicted. It'll be a self-fulfilling prophecy and all the more ironic given that Tyrion approached Cersei in good faith despite everything she's done to him. 

Jon's distaste of burnings shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone who remembers his visceral reaction to Mance being burned alive. Stannis' burnings were never portrayed as being in the right regardless of the victim, and Daenerys' being portrayed just as distastefully isn't misogynistic; it's consistent. 

The first episode just sounds pretty whatever. Theon sneaking onboard a ship, retrieving a prized hostage and getting away unnoticed when Euron has the most powerful fleet in Westeros. Lol ok. Good thing she isn't being held captive by Ramsay and his twenty good men.

Edited April 10, 2019 by shireenbamfatheon
grammar is hard

[bubble sparkly]

Did Friki claim that Tyrion was working with Cersei and made a deal with her though? I know there was talk of the “I never bet against my family” line, but there was also something about Tyrion locking the gates to KL or something.

Friki’s story about the Tyrion trial has always been incomplete. I truly am curious as to whether he got the biggest scoop of the offseason or whether he was majorly conned.

[Eyes High]

24 minutes ago, shireenbamfatheon said:

Cersei trying to buy Bronn's services to assassinate Tyrion really does put a spin in the "Tyrion is a traitor" theory. At this point, I feel like Friki is clinging to it out of sheer stubbornness and is projecting his own assumptions onto Tyrion's motives. From the leaks, Tyrion comes across as naive and gullible in the first episode, but in no way deliberately deceptive. I think Tyrion is going to be completely shattered once he finds out the truth and that he'll end up being the valonqar in the end, just as Cersei predicted. It'll be a self-fulfilling prophecy and all the more ironic given that Tyrion approached Cersei in good faith despite everything she's done to him. 

Jon's distaste of burnings shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone who remembers his visceral reaction to Mance being burned alive. Stannis' burnings were never portrayed as being in the right regardless of the victim, and Daenerys' being portrayed just as distastefully isn't misogynistic; it's consistent. 

The first episode just sounds pretty whatever. Theon sneaking into a ship, retrieving a prized hostage and getting away unnoticed when Euron has the most powerful fleet in Westeros. Lol ok. Good thing she isn't being held captive by Ramsay and his twenty good men.

4 minutes ago, bubble sparkly said:

Did Friki claim that Tyrion was working with Cersei and made a deal with her though? I know there was talk of the “I never bet against my family” line, but there was also something about Tyrion locking the gates to KL or something.

Friki’s story about the Tyrion trial has always been incomplete. I truly am curious as to whether he got the biggest scoop of the offseason or whether he was majorly conned.

It’s weird, because Friki’s source insisted that Tyrion betrays the Starks and not Dany. There’s something about Tyrion closing the gates and letting a bunch of civilians die by burning, and Javi Marcos said that Peter’s last scene was Tyrion being marched by the dead bodies in the streets of KL by Davos and Jon and forced to view his handiwork. (And we haven’t heard anything to contradict that from Peter and Kit’s accounts of Peter’s last day.) So all that sounds like something later in the season completely unrelated to Cersei.

On the other hand, throughout the 8x01 spoiler video, Friki was crowing about how everything Tyrion said was a lie, how he’d made a secret deal with Cersei, blah blah blah. He also said that nothing he saw in 8x01 changed his mind about Tyrion’s treason. Still, he left out the part about Cersei offering money for Bronn to kill Tyrion, which seems like a pretty big hole in the theory that Tyrion and Cersei reached some sort of arrangement in 7x07 and are working together to fuck over Dany and the Starks.

Javi and Friki have claimed that there are multiple people verifying Tyrion’s trial. But right now, I have a lot of questions.

[nikma]

6 hours ago, Minneapple said:

Part of me is reading and listening to all these interviews with raised brows, like "really? Devastating? Unpredictable? Beautiful? REALLY?" We've all met D&D's writing and we recognize this tree. 

What this even mean? That D&D don't write beautiful and devastating scenes?

[anamika]

An interview with the actor who plays Harry Strickland. The guy who interviews him sounds like a freefolker lol! Tries every which way and asks questions in different ways to get spoilers out of Rissman but Rissman is not having it.

But from the thing he does say, I think he confirms GC at WF:

- Started filming in October

- Has met all the actors

- Met Kit very early on and first

- Has filmed something with hundreds of extras, big setting

- For countries he filmed in - mentions only Belfast

- Flew in and out for filming his scenes

[Minneapple]

1 hour ago, nikma said:

What this even mean? That D&D don't write beautiful and devastating scenes?

They can. They can also write scenes that leave everyone wondering what the fuck is happening.

[Eyes High]

8x01's warnings have been updated to include nudity and strong sexual content.  It's not clear in relation to what, exactly, since the spoilers indicate that Euron and Cersei's sex scene is not all that explicit (and Jon and Dany making out and possibly more in front of the dragons is left mostly to the imagination). It could be the brothel scene with Bronn and Qyburn.

[SeanC]

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

It could be the brothel scene with Bronn and Qyburn.

I’d assume that’s what it is.

Relatedly, that nudity spoiler site hasn’t posted anything about the new season.

[nikma]

10 hours ago, Minneapple said:

They can. They can also write scenes that leave everyone wondering what the fuck is happening.

Very rare.

[cambridgeguy]

14 hours ago, Eyes High said:

It’s weird, because Friki’s source insisted that Tyrion betrays the Starks and not Dany. There’s something about Tyrion closing the gates and letting a bunch of civilians die by burning, and Javi Marcos said that Peter’s last scene was Tyrion being marched by the dead bodies in the streets of KL by Davos and Jon and forced to view his handiwork. (And we haven’t heard anything to contradict that from Peter and Kit’s accounts of Peter’s last day.) So all that sounds like something later in the season completely unrelated to Cersei.

There's a way to play this without an inexplicable long con that Tyrion is pulling thanks to some secret deal with Cersei.  These seem to be the various options if the civilian dying is part of it.

Option 1 - Tyrion is still holding a grudge against KL because of his trial so he defies a direct order and lets thousands of innocents die.  People find out and Dany executes him for it.  This seems contrary to everything Tyrion has said about how Dany shouldn't just go scorched earth but maybe that was all talk.  Tyrion dies a villain.

Option 2 - The NK comes to KL and Tyrion believes all of those civilians are going to become new wights if they aren't burnt to a crisp.  Dany and Jon aren't OK with sacrificing that many innocent lives but Tyrion is, so they die.  Cue execution.  Tyrion still dies, but he's still someone who was working for the greater good.

Option 3 - Tyrion is stupid enough to work with Cersei.  Tyrion dies a moron.

Option 4 - Tyrion betrays the Starks because he's in love with Dany and wants Jon eliminated.  Tyrion dies a lovesick fool.

Edited April 6, 2019 by cambridgeguy

[Spartan Girl]

1 hour ago, cambridgeguy said:

There's a way to play this without an inexplicable long con that Tyrion is pulling thanks to some secret deal with Cersei.  These seem to be the various options if the civilian dying is part of it.

Option 1 - Tyrion is still holding a grudge against KL because of his trial so he defies a direct order and lets thousands of innocents die.  People find out and Dany executes him for it.  This seems contrary to everything Tyrion has said about how Dany shouldn't just go scorched earth but maybe that was all talk.  Tyrion dies a villain.

Option 2 - The NK comes to KL and Tyrion believes all of those civilians are going to become new wights if they aren't burnt to a crisp.  Dany and Jon aren't OK with sacrificing that many innocent lives but Tyrion is, so they die.  Cue execution.  Tyrion still dies, but he's still someone who was working for the greater good.

Option 3 - Tyrion is stupid enough to work with Cersei.  Tyrion dies a moron.

Option 4 - Tyrion betrays the Starks because he's in love with Dany and wants Jon eliminated.  Tyrion dies a lovesick fool.

Please be option 2...

[screamin]

2 hours ago, cambridgeguy said:

There's a way to play this without an inexplicable long con that Tyrion is pulling thanks to some secret deal with Cersei.  These seem to be the various options if the civilian dying is part of it.

Option 1 - Tyrion is still holding a grudge against KL because of his trial so he defies a direct order and lets thousands of innocents die.  People find out and Dany executes him for it.  This seems contrary to everything Tyrion has said about how Dany shouldn't just go scorched earth but maybe that was all talk.  Tyrion dies a villain.

Option 2 - The NK comes to KL and Tyrion believes all of those civilians are going to become new wights if they aren't burnt to a crisp.  Dany and Jon aren't OK with sacrificing that many innocent lives but Tyrion is, so they die.  Cue execution.  Tyrion still dies, but he's still someone who was working for the greater good.

Option 3 - Tyrion is stupid enough to work with Cersei.  Tyrion dies a moron.

Option 4 - Tyrion betrays the Starks because he's in love with Dany and wants Jon eliminated.  Tyrion dies a lovesick fool.

While I expect option 2, I'd dislike it because it gives the finishing touch of whitewash to the statue of St. Tyrion the Martyr that the show has made of Book Tyrion.

What I would LIKE is option 4 with a side of Machiavelli; that Tyrion gets wind of the prophecy that ONE of the Targaryens has to be sacrificed to enable the other to save the world, and decides on his own that he wants the sacrifice to be Jon, concealing the info from Danaerys and using the prophecy to talk Jon into being the sacrifice, for very good reasons: Dany is  pregnant and is the future of the dynasty, and Jon is a dead man walking, living on borrowed time already....but also because he wants Danaerys and his cushy role as Queen's Hand. He intends his meddling to be secret (maybe Bran's dead by then) but it comes out. He defends his reasoning at his trial but is defeated.

[WindyNights]

27 minutes ago, screamin said:

While I expect option 2, I'd dislike it because it gives the finishing touch of whitewash to the statue of St. Tyrion the Martyr that the show has made of Book Tyrion.

What I would LIKE is option 4 with a side of Machiavelli; that Tyrion gets wind of the prophecy that ONE of the Targaryens has to be sacrificed to enable the other to save the world, and decides on his own that he wants the sacrifice to be Jon, concealing the info from Danaerys and using the prophecy to talk Jon into being the sacrifice, for very good reasons: Dany is  pregnant and is the future of the dynasty, and Jon is a dead man walking, living on borrowed time already....but also because he wants Danaerys and his cushy role as Queen's Hand. He intends his meddling to be secret (maybe Bran's dead by then) but it comes out. He defends his reasoning at his trial but is defeated.

Bran lives to the trial according to Friki so Bran won't be dead by then.

[nikma]

3 hours ago, cambridgeguy said:

Option 2 - The NK comes to KL and Tyrion believes all of those civilians are going to become new wights if they aren't burnt to a crisp.  Dany and Jon aren't OK with sacrificing that many innocent lives but Tyrion is, so they die.  Cue execution.  Tyrion still dies, but he's still someone who was working for the greater good.

I think this is the cleanest option, but it has nothing to do with his family and that was the driving force of his character since S1. 

So I don't know how dramatically satisfying this would be. 

36 minutes ago, screamin said:

What I would LIKE is option 4 with a side of Machiavelli; that Tyrion gets wind of the prophecy that ONE of the Targaryens has to be sacrificed to enable the other to save the world,

This is too convoluted and I don't think that some prophecy makes  sense for Tyrion's motivation. He is not Stannis. 

[anamika]

I am pretty certain Tyrion lives. He lives to continue Tywin's legacy while both of Tywin's golden children - the ones on whom all his hopes and dreams rested on - die.

[Edith]

Jacob Anderson said recently that fans are likely to feel “very conflicted” about Grey Worm’s story in season 8. What that could possibly mean is up for speculation.

“Grey Worm goes on a journey this year,” he said. “He’s in unknown territory, and I think people are going to feel very conflicted about every character in this season. And Grey Worm is no exception. That’s what I’ll say.”

http://watchersonthewall.com/jacob-anderson-says-fans-will-conflicted-grey-worms-conclusion/

[anamika]

So, Sophie and Maisie think that the Night King has the most shocking / surprising journey in S8

https://www.culturaocio.com/tv/noticia-maisie-williams-sophie-turner-avanzan-final-juego-tronos-rey-noche-dara-gran-sorpresa-20190405134146.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGgYHPd4YeM&feature=youtu.be

Maisie talks about the scene where the NK touches the baby and his eyes turn blue.

As per BoatsexBaby:

"NK/Others are not simply WMDs out of control. Their motivation will be revealed, and it’ll tie together every WW related scene from S1E01 till now. The reveal and resolution are apparently brilliant"

Edited April 6, 2019 by anamika

[screamin]

3 hours ago, nikma said:

I think this is the cleanest option, but it has nothing to do with his family and that was the driving force of his character since S1. 

So I don't know how dramatically satisfying this would be. 

This is too convoluted and I don't think that some prophecy makes  sense for Tyrion's motivation. He is not Stannis. 

Well, after the reappearance of the Others after Tyrion mocked them as mythical snarks and grumkins, I'd guess he'd keep an open mind. But mainly I'd think he'd use the prophecy the way he used his concerns about burning KL to the ground to dissuade Dany from attacking with dragons: yes, it has the potential to burn thousands of innocent people and be a PR disaster that would permanently hobble Dany's reign. These are all things that are true and that do genuinely concern him, but his MAIN, less worthy reason that he withholds from Dany is that he wants to spare his sister's life.

The same way, I'd expect that he'd hear the prophecy, and keep it in mind as possibly true - a lot of prophecies are coming true right now and a lot of magic being done - it would be a foolish man who'd reflexively deny the possibility under those circumstances. But then, if he sees an opportunity for a Targaryen kamikaze attack to get some critical goal needed for eventual victory, I don't think Tyrion would be above using the prophecy to talk Jon into making that attack, the same way he used humanitarian concerns to dissuade Dany from attacking KL. Yes, Tyrion believes the prophecy is suggestive, it may even be true - but Tyrion's main concern in talking Jon into it is that he wants his queen to come out on top. I think that would be in character.

But as I said, I expect the outcome will probably be St Tyrion the Martyr instead. *sigh*

[Eyes High]

5 hours ago, anamika said:

I am pretty certain Tyrion lives. He lives to continue Tywin's legacy while both of Tywin's golden children - the ones on whom all his hopes and dreams rested on - die.

BSB has said that they are 99% certain House Lannister survives in the show, so assuming for the sake of argument they have legit inside information (which is not clear) and that that statement is based on that legit information (which is also not clear), then that means either Cersei, Jaime, or Tyrion survive, or that Brienne somehow marries Jaime and gets pregnant with his child before he dies in S8.

Much like the Tyrells, the Martells, the Freys, and the other families that have been wiped out or are hanging by a thread in the show but are in decent shape in the books, I don't think GRRM is going to wipe out the Lannisters as a whole. There are too many Lannisters (such as the Lannisport Lannisters) alive and kicking in the books, and D&D are far more bloodthirsty when it comes to wiping out entire houses than GRRM at any rate. With that said, I could see Tywin's line ending in the books, although Tyrion, Jaime and Cersei don't need to be killed off to end his line: they just need to die without having had any surviving legitimate issue.

Although surviving as the head of the Lannisters is preferable to being tried for treason and executed, Tyrion being stuck with the Lannister legacy seems kind of depressing for him as an endgame. He doesn't really seem like he'd be happy living in his father's shadow and unsuccessfully striving to live up to his father's reputation. But if Tyrion's whole arc boils down to how he just can't quit the Lannisters and permanently wash his hands of his toxic, horrible family and their equally toxic and horrible legacy no matter what they've done to him and no matter what it costs him, and S7 certainly seemed to be pointing to something along those lines, then I guess ending up as the default patriarch of the house and having to knuckle down and rebuild it could work as an ending for him if the Tyrion betrayal/trial thing never happens.

Edited April 6, 2019 by Eyes High

[WindyNights]

5 hours ago, anamika said:

I am pretty certain Tyrion lives. He lives to continue Tywin's legacy while both of Tywin's golden children - the ones on whom all his hopes and dreams rested on - die.

I mean you've been wrong before. You've banked on Sansa dying for a while so Arya can be Lady of Winterfell.

15 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

BSB has said that they are 99% certain House Lannister survives in the show, so assuming for the sake of argument they have legit inside information (which is not clear) and that that statement is based on that legit information (which is also not clear), then that means either Cersei, Jaime, or Tyrion survive, or that Brienne somehow marries Jaime and gets pregnant with his child before he dies in S8.

Much like the Tyrells, the Martells, the Freys, and the other families that have been wiped out or are hanging by a thread in the show but are in decent shape in the books, I don't think GRRM is going to wipe out the Lannisters as a whole. There are too many Lannisters (such as the Lannisport Lannisters) alive and kicking in the books, and D&D are far more bloodthirsty when it comes to wiping out entire houses than GRRM at any rate. With that said, I could see Tywin's line ending, although Tyrion, Jaime and Cersei don't need to be killed off to end his line: they just need to die without having had any surviving legitimate issue.

Although surviving as the head of the Lannisters is preferable to being tried for treason and executed, Tyrion being stuck with the Lannister legacy seems kind of depressing for him as an endgame. He doesn't really seem like he'd be happy living in his father's shadow and unsuccessfully striving to live up to his father's reputation. But if Tyrion's whole arc boils down to how he just can't quit the Lannisters and permanently wash his hands of his toxic, horrible family and their equally toxic and horrible legacy no matter what they've done to him and no matter what it costs him, and S7 certainly seemed to be pointing to something along those lines, then I guess ending up as the default patriarch of the house and having to knuckle down and rebuild it could work as an ending for him if the Tyrion betrayal/trial thing never happens.

Who has been more credible between Friki and BSB? Friki actually gave us episode 1 after all.