S12.E22: Who We Are/S12.E23 All Along the Watchtower

[ZennyKenny]

1 minute ago, companionenvy said:

You know, it is funny. Before the episodes aired, I was looking forward to coming back and discussing it in the forums, but now I'm just kind of numb. And it isn't sadness over losing Cas, it is just from weariness of being jerked around. Given the show's history and the way the season left off, I have no way of knowing if Cas is dead, if Crowley is dead, if Rowena is dead (well, actually, I'm pretty sure Rowena is dead). On one hand, we're getting sweet scenes of Cas and Kelly preparing for a baby, and on the other, we have huge honking signs that the kid (is it a kid? It certainly isn't a baby) is evil, evil, evil.  And of course, Lucifer lives on. In an alt-world that, as of now, I have zero reason to care about. Sure, it is nice to see Jim Beaver, but that guy isn't our Bobby in any meaningful way. 

Cliffhangers are all well and good, but at some point I need some emotional payoff - or, at least, enough sense of what is real and what isn't to give a damn. 

That was very well spoken. This show is exhausting, and not in a good way.

[catrox14]

Just now, Binns said:

Yeah, I didn't mean to sound bitchy there, it was more surprise- like I said in the other thread, it's interesting to see how people interpret things so differently. 

I don't put it on Cas the character. I put it on the writing that needed to make the point that without Sam the world went to Apocalpyse 2.0. 

[Mick Lady]

44 minutes ago, SueB said:

@rue721 and I watching as Luci screams NOOOOOOOO!

Cheeseburgers & Fries, Wine & Scotch, & Apple Pie.

Rue looks much too calm! You should be hugging each other! I wish I was their with you two. I'm jealous, damn it!

I hated both episodes. Cas and Crowley both gone. It can't be true!

[CluelessDrifter]

1 minute ago, Mick Lady said:

Rue looks much too calm! You should be hugging each other! I wish I was their with you two. I'm jealous, damn it!

I hated both episodes. Cas and Crowley both gone. It can't be true!

I'm like 90% sure that the nephilim will bring Cas back, but I think Crowley is really gone.  Rowena too.

[companionenvy]

I agree that Dean should have mentioned his own time in hell, continuing the show's bizarre pattern of not acknowledging Dean's stint in the pit. Otherwise, I think Dean's "I hate you" and the bitterness that Mary DIDN'T, in fact, protect young Dean as she promised, instead leaving him to be Sam's de facto parent, was pretty clearly not all about Sam, except to the extent that Dean had so much responsibility because he had to parent his brother while he was a child himself. Given that the most direct consequence of Mary's deal was more tied to Sam than to Dean, some focus on him was only to be expected. 

[SueB]

Cas was totally talking to BOTH of them. "You were never born."  Because if ONLY Sam was not born, then Michael would have had a vessel.  So, there's no logic in it ONLY being about Sam.  Both were never born. Lucifer found a way out, and things went to shit.  The end.

Again, I'll go quick due to early appointment.

The Good:
- Locking Lucifer in an alternate reality.  Good choice.
- BOBBY!  And he named his gun Rufus.  And he figured out how to melt down Angel blades into bullets.  I love you Bobby.
- Cas watching doula videos and buying too many diapers. 
- Cas healing Dean and Dean saying they'll sort out their shit later, they gotta figure out what to do next.  It felt so RIGHT.  
- The sight gag of the boys running from Lucifer.  I mean, it's so NOT Sam and Dean.  
- Crowley running STRAIGHT to the Winchesters when the shit hits the fan.  Dean knocking him on his ass and nearly killing him.  Dean ACTUALLY including him as part of the team (even if Crowley didn't hear it).
- I really WAS wondering "who" was going to permanently die throughout the episode.  
- Crowley's death. Now, I don't WANT him to be dead... but he sort of seemed like he was ready for it to be "over".  So, I thought it played well.  And heroic.  I was good with his end IF this is his end.  Again, I don't want it over.
- Mary and Luci in Other World w/ OW!Bobby.  I want that.  And Luci better not hurt Mary.  He seemed truly pissed.
- Dean w/ Cas at the end. Looking up for God (I SWEAR, he was looking up for Chuck to help) to save the day.  
 

The Bad
- An internet report is going to trace a phenomenon down to a street and the name of the renter? Yeah, no.  
- WHY TOUCH THE FLAMING VAGINA (Trademark Tippi Blevins) AT ALL?  Throw a stone at it, see if it disappears.  I can kinda see Cas being a bit of a dumbass and touching it, but WHY... with everything else going on.... did they prioritize "other world".  They should have at least said to Cas -- is there a threat that something bad is coming through?  And have Cas declare that they need to see what's on the other side (because he wants them to see a world without Sam and Dean.... and to meet Bobby).  And because as SOON as the rift opened, it was obvious that this was where they were going to send Luci. Bottom Line:  Going into and out of that world needed more rationale. (My inner Tippi is thinking... they're men, they always want to touch the vagina... sorry, I'll show myself out...)
- The demon knife was NEVER going to hold Crowley.  
- Crowley just randomly deciding to give up being King of Hell.  On the one hand, it's been coming for a long time.  OTOH, so running around as a rat brings existential clarity?  IDK.  Weakish.
- Random powers of the Nephil.  Just... too loosey goosey and convenient.
- Creepy Nephil face.  
- Mary being able to actually effect Luci when no one else could.  
 

The Ugly:
- Rowena's death. NOPE NOPE NOPEITY NOPE.  That had better NOT be it.  She deserved a far more epic death scene.
- Cas' death.  This had better NOT be it.   That is far too quick for my beloved Cas. So, I'm going to stay FIRMLY in the land of denial until there is no hope of Misha coming back.  

 

I clearly preferred 12.22 over 12.23 but I have to re-watch both.  I think the have a LOT of loopholes we have to work with.  

AND CAS HAD BETTER NOT BE DEAD.  

 

9 minutes ago, Mick Lady said:

Rue looks much too calm! You should be hugging each other! I wish I was their with you two. I'm jealous, damn it!

I hated both episodes. Cas and Crowley both gone. It can't be true!

Ha!  SueB is the one closest to the camera and Rue has her hand over her mouth.  And calm is not the right word... in MASSIVE denial probably is more correct.

[ZennyKenny]

Post-episode thoughts:

- Wait. So... how's Crowley supposed to close the gates of Hell if he's dead? I'm guessing that there's currently no ruler, some demons will fight off-screen to decide who takes the throne, and we'll be introduced to a new "King of Hell" next season?

- Even as much as I normally like Mark's acting, this episode's Lucifer was over the top, even for me. Please please PLEASE don't bring him back!

- Honestly, other than the deaths, I thoroughly enjoyed this episode. There were so many great lines, lots of tension, great acting, and it moved at a brisk pace.

[Lemuria]

15 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I don't put it on Cas the character. I put it on the writing that needed to make the point that without Sam the world went to Apocalpyse 2.0. 

Which makes no sense, because without Sam, Lucifer doesn't get out of the Cage.  

[Wynne88]

Loved the t-shirts and sweaty guys (I'm shallow).  Liked Lady Toni's line about being a really shallow breather, and Sam acknowledging that he fell completely for the BMoL spiel.  Really loved Dean's expression when he first thought of the grenade launcher, and loved Sam supporting him shooting it.  I would have liked to have seen Dean in more of a General-type role, but man he did the heavy lifting on the whole emotional side.  Nobody can do it better.  That whole monologue when he was trying to get through to Mary was excellent.  I thought they did a good job of transitioning between the Sam and the BMoL facility and Dean and Mary and the fight in the bunker.   I was sort of surprised that they didn't even give a nod of the head to the fact these were people they were killing.; was a time when Sam wouldn't have even considered that unless they were possessed by demons.   I liked Mary's apology at he end, and Dean acknowledging it, yet saying that what she did was what made them who they were, and taking credit for all they had done.  It was nice seeing him so comfortable in his own skin.

[Mick Lady]

14 minutes ago, SueB said:

Cas was totally talking to BOTH of them. "You were never born."  Because if ONLY Sam was not born, then Michael would have had a vessel.  So, there's no logic in it ONLY being about Sam.  Both were never born. Lucifer found a way out, and things went to shit.  The end.

Again, I'll go quick due to early appointment.

The Good:
- Locking Lucifer in an alternate reality.  Good choice.
- BOBBY!  And he named his gun Rufus.  And he figured out how to melt down Angel blades into bullets.  I love you Bobby.
- Cas watching doula videos and buying too many diapers. 
- Cas healing Dean and Dean saying they'll sort out their shit later, they gotta figure out what to do next.  It felt so RIGHT.  
- The sight gag of the boys running from Lucifer.  I mean, it's so NOT Sam and Dean.  
- Crowley running STRAIGHT to the Winchesters when the shit hits the fan.  Dean knocking him on his ass and nearly killing him.  Dean ACTUALLY including him as part of the team (even if Crowley didn't hear it).
- I really WAS wondering "who" was going to permanently die throughout the episode.  
- Crowley's death. Now, I don't WANT him to be dead... but he sort of seemed like he was ready for it to be "over".  So, I thought it played well.  And heroic.  I was good with his end IF this is his end.  Again, I don't want it over.
- Mary and Luci in Other World w/ OW!Bobby.  I want that.  And Luci better not hurt Mary.  He seemed truly pissed.
- Dean w/ Cas at the end. Looking up for God (I SWEAR, he was looking up for Chuck to help) to save the day.  
 

The Bad
- An internet report is going to trace a phenomenon down to a street and the name of the renter? Yeah, no.  
- WHY TOUCH THE FLAMING VAGINA (Trademark Tippi Blevins) AT ALL?  Throw a stone at it, see if it disappears.  I can kinda see Cas being a bit of a dumbass and touching it, but WHY... with everything else going on.... did they prioritize "other world".  They should have at least said to Cas -- is there a threat that something bad is coming through?  And have Cas declare that they need to see what's on the other side (because he wants them to see a world without Sam and Dean.... and to meet Bobby).  And because as SOON as the rift opened, it was obvious that this was where they were going to send Luci. Bottom Line:  Going into and out of that world needed more rationale. (My inner Tippi is thinking... they're men, they always want to touch the vagina... sorry, I'll show myself out...)
- The demon knife was NEVER going to hold Crowley.  
- Crowley just randomly deciding to give up being King of Hell.  On the one hand, it's been coming for a long time.  OTOH, so running around as a rat brings existential clarity?  IDK.  Weakish.
- Random powers of the Nephil.  Just... too loosey goosey and convenient.
- Creepy Nephil face.  
- Mary being able to actually effect Luci when no one else could.  
 

The Ugly:
- Rowena's death. NOPE NOPE NOPEITY NOPE.  That had better NOT be it.  She deserved a far more epic death scene.
- Cas' death.  This had better NOT be it.   That is far too quick for my beloved Cas. So, I'm going to stay FIRMLY in the land of denial until there is no hope of Misha coming back.  

 

I clearly preferred 12.22 over 12.23 but I have to re-watch both.  I think the have a LOT of loopholes we have to work with.  

AND CAS HAD BETTER NOT BE DEAD.  

 

Ha!  SueB is the one closest to the camera and Rue has her hand over her mouth.  And calm is not the right word... in MASSIVE denial probably is more correct.

Well, either way, much too calm! And I'm still jealous! I wanna hang with you guys!

But could we get some whiskey? I needed it tonight!

[catrox14]

16 minutes ago, Lemuria said:

Which makes no sense, because without Sam, Lucifer doesn't get out of the Cage.  

 You mean when Lucifer got out in s11?

16 minutes ago, Lemuria said:

Which makes no sense, because without Sam, Lucifer doesn't get out of the Cage.  

OH oh duh.. you mean in s04. LOL DUH /self facepalm

Edited May 19, 2017 by catrox14

[roctavia]

 Huh... well, that's one way to end the season, I suppose. I was hoping for something more happy ending-ish like last season, like if they didn't know they were going to have another season and there was a good way to end things just in case....

Sad to see Crowley go, because he was always fun... though I agree that he hasn't had much to do the last several seasons. Sick of Lucifer and I hope we don't have to visit him much in bizzaro land. I assume he's going to try and attack Mary but then Bobby will come to her rescue. Lucifer wanted an apocalypse, didn't he?

I fully assumed that Cass was talking to both Sam and Dean about if they were never born (it never crossed my mind that he wouldn't be). This is a world where Mary fell in love with John but never married him- perhaps a world where she didn't make the deal to save his life. So it's a world where no Winchesters were born. And they've stopped so many apocalypses that any of them could have played out into a demon/angel war.

Not sure what to think about Cass dying. It seemed pretty final, though they've all died before. Won't be surprised if he's brought back next season. But his character has been wasted for awhile IMO. I can remember when he was first introduced as this mysterious character who ripped dean from hell with a giant hand print...  I love Misha and the Dean/Cass relationship... but this might be a good shake up. Cass could return in a different way than being resurrected, which might be interesting.

I wasn't sure what to expect with the Nephilim, but they definitely got the creepy look down... I understand that they didn't want to start off the new season saddled with a baby, but I would have been okay with it for an episode... too bad they just played the fast aging baby card with Amara last season. I thought it looked almost Elvin, very pointed features made more pronounced with the lighting. I kind of wish the season hadn't ended on such a creepy shot! His eyes were yellow instead of Lucifer's red... I think he'll start off as an innocent.

[Macbeth]

I really liked this episode a lot, but I felt cheated as it was overshadowed by what went down in the season finale.  Did they ever play 2 episodes like this - back to back?

Didn't have time to enjoy the nice warm feelings coming through this episode.

[catrox14]

Oh gods.

Those are Castiel's wings. I didn't see it the first time.  Fuck. It. All.

[rue721]

38 minutes ago, Mick Lady said:

Rue looks much too calm! You should be hugging each other! I wish I was their with you two. I'm jealous, damn it!

Heh, "calm" only because I'm clutching that giant glass of wine LOL.

I basically begged @SueB for us to watch the finale together, because I was so excited and wanted to watch it with someone else as excited as I was! Honestly, 100% worth it. So happy we could watch together. That was a lot of fun.

36 minutes ago, CluelessDrifter said:

I'm like 90% sure that the nephilim will bring Cas back, but I think Crowley is really gone.  Rowena too.

I don't get why the nephilim would bring Cas back, though? If he didn't even bother saving his mom, I don't think that he's going to care about her rando dead friend?

I was actually really surprised by Kelly dying, because I figured the baby would save her. But in general, I'm just trying to wait-and-see with the nephilism plotline, because this thing of a weirdo man springing from Kelly's vagina is just...I don't know what to make of that as of yet lol

Edited May 19, 2017 by rue721

[ahrtee]

20 minutes ago, SueB said:

Mary and Luci in Other World w/ OW!Bobby.  I want that.  And Luci better not hurt Mary.  He seemed truly pissed.

Something that just occurred to me...if the Other World is an alternate universe where the boys weren't born and therefore the Apocalypse happened...does that mean that there's *another* Lucifer there?  And that he won?  (And won't he be pissed if another Luci shows up?  Or maybe they'll team up to figure a way to open a rift to other universes to conquer?)  Inquiring minds want to know...

[CluelessDrifter]

10 minutes ago, rue721 said:

Heh, "calm" only because I'm clutching that giant glass of wine LOL.

I basically begged @SueB for us to watch the finale together, because I was so excited and wanted to watch it with someone else as excited as I was! Honestly, 100% worth it. So happy we could watch together. That was a lot of fun.

I don't get why the nephilim would bring Cas back, though? If he didn't even bother saving his mom, I don't think that he's going to care about her rando dead friend?

I was actually really surprised by Kelly dying, because I figured the baby would save her. But in general, I'm just trying to wait-and-see with the nephilism plotline, because this thing of a weirdo man springing from Kelly's vagina is just...I don't know what to make of that as of yet lol

Yeah, they just went right on ahead and aged him up in about 5 minutes instead of 23 episodes.  I guess I'm grateful for that.  I think at this point and what we should've gotten from Jack before he was born is that he knows what he has to do to survive, which means until he's fully grown, he might need to rely on someone, like Cas, who he chose in the womb to be his protector.  Plus, I think if Sam looks like he'll help him if he does this thing of resurrecting their friend, he'll do it if it means they'll help him learn the ways of this world.  He might be in the body of a young adult, but he's still new to how the world works . . . if any of that makes sense?

[catrox14]

'Idjits' - Bobby from somewhere in Heaven's Jail

[SueB]

Adorable Weechester liked my tweet!

[Binns]

Went back bc for a second I thought there were no wings for Cas but I see them now. I wanted to get a better look at the nephilim and it looks pretty evil to me with that smile. It didn't look like Misha to me. I thought it was cool how they made its footsteps look like they were cinders. 

There was a nephilim back in one of the Metatron seasons- he and Cas killed it. She wasn't super destructo. Maybe it's because this one is Lucifer's. Was the vision that it gave Cas manipulation? 

[catrox14]

[tessathereaper]

1 hour ago, ParadoxLost said:

I kind of took it as that world exists because Sam wasn't born and didn't become Lucifer's vessel and whoever that was didn't throw himself into the cage to keep Lucifer boxed.

That it wasn't about all the times the world was saved by Sam and Dean but that one time when they averted the apocalyptic war between Lucifer and Michael.  And in that case, Cas was wrong to be saying that to Sam, he should have said it to the Impala.

No he should have been saying to the toy soldier in the Impala. :)

[catrox14]

I think Castiel is really most sincerely dead. I'm not okay. Fuck.

And yeah, never mind, That doesn't look like Cas as the nephilim. 

I just can't even. I can't. This is too much.

I'll be back later.

I'm heartbroken.

Edited May 19, 2017 by catrox14

[Wayward Son]

15 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I think Castiel is really most sincerely dead. I'm not okay. Fuck.

And yeah, never mind, That doesn't look like Cas as the nephilim. 

I just can't even. I can't. This is too much.

I'll be back later.

I'm heartbroken.

I'm sorry @catrox14 -hugs- 

I'm getting ready to start the episode now! 

[Morrigan2575]

1 hour ago, ParadoxLost said:

At Cas's death, my response was a great big well this is another finale death and premiere resurrection for everybody.  Actually I said aloud, they can't kill the ensemble, I don't think that Jared and Jensen want to work as many hours as required when there are only two regulars.

I'm more likely to believe that Crowley is Dead, Dead then I am Castiel. 

Killing them both off, leaves me thinking it's a fakeout and they'll both be back.

[DeansDorkyAngel]

catrox14  I'm there with you.  I feel really sick, like phisically (and emotionally as well).  It affected me really badly. 

[AwesomO4000]

1 hour ago, ahrtee said:

Something that just occurred to me...if the Other World is an alternate universe where the boys weren't born and therefore the Apocalypse happened...does that mean that there's *another* Lucifer there?  And that he won?  

I'm thinking that the Lucifer in the alternate universe is still in the cage? And that Michael didn't/couldn't find an appropriate vessel (there is no Adam there either), and since John is also dead and so is Samuel and Deanna - no Michael vessel perhaps? And maybe this is why the angels and demons are fighting for dominance on earth. Because neither side has a leader they're just fighting it out perhaps? Somehow I think if Lucifer was out of the cage there, there would be more order somehow. But I could be looking at this wrongly.

[ahrtee]

3 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I'm thinking that the Lucifer in the alternate universe is still in the cage? And that Michael didn't/couldn't find an appropriate vessel (there is no Adam there either), and since John is also dead and so is Samuel and Deanna - no Michael vessel perhaps? And maybe this is why the angels and demons are fighting for dominance on earth. Because neither side has a leader they're just fighting it out perhaps? Somehow I think if Lucifer was out of the cage there, there would be more order somehow. But I could be looking at this wrongly.

I guess by "the cage" you mean Lucifer's original lockdown before the seals were broken?  Could be.  And since they're obviously not following SPN-verse rules, maybe the angels and demons just decided to start fighting on their own, without any urging from archangels, and the earth just got caught in the fallout.  But I kind of like the idea of an AU Lucifer.  Or maybe in this 'verse (since Bobby seemed to hate angels more than demons) it's the *angels* who are the badguys, and Lucifer is good.  Then we could have evil!Lucifer vs. good!Lucifer in a showdown, with Mark P. playing both parts. I kind of like that idea! :)

[ZennyKenny]

2 hours ago, rue721 said:

I don't get why the nephilim would bring Cas back, though? If he didn't even bother saving his mom, I don't think that he's going to care about her rando dead friend?

Well isn't Cas supposed to be the thing's guardian? I guess that's assuming that the visions weren't total BS though.

[rue721]

I wonder if the "nephilism baby" we saw at the end WAS the other world's Lucifer. Or other-world!Lucifer's son. Maybe Kelly's mystical pregnancy was his escape plan (for himself or his kid) from that hellscape world.

Edited May 19, 2017 by rue721
wrong words! and added NECESSARY scare quotes

[nightwing877]

I am wondering if Crowley and Rowena are actually going to remain dead. Unlike Cas, it could be final. But they could both return in the other world next season. I half expect with seeing Bobby again, we could see this world's versions of Charlie, Rufus or Ellen turn up soon. Maybe Ellen's husband is alive in this world or even Rufus family. 

[ZennyKenny]

You know, the more I really ponder this finale, the darker is gets.

First of all, Crowley killed himself. To get revenge. Sure, it was right in the midst of a chain of action sequences and it fit right in, but think about it; he literally committed suicide. This was foreshadowed when he talked about how unhappy he was being the king of Hell. The fact that he was so eagerly willing to end his life that he would keep the final ingredient of the spell a secret until he could finish himself off makes me think that what he was experiencing was a lot more than just bored of being King.

Secondly, Mary really, REALLY got more than just the short end of the stick this season. I mean, she went from Heaven to worse than Hell. She never asked to be brought back. It just happened. She was so unhappy that she flirted with death on multiple occasions via Billie. She begged Ketch to kill her. And what is her reward for persevering and surviving? Being thrown in an alternate apocalyptic dimension with a wrathful Lucifer. We know what he's done to Sam; just imagine what he will do to Mary.

Finally, poor Dean man. Poor Dean. He had to deal with his mom being a cold-hearted brainwashed assassin, he to spill his guts out to her just to snap her out of it, then had to watch her get dragged off into an unreachable place by Lucifer. And on top of all that, he had to watch his best friend get stabbed and die. And I gotta be honest; the more I think about it, the more it looks like Cas is gone for good. He's died multiple times, but I think being stabbed and having your body light up like that is pretty final.

[Proteus]

There's no way I believe that Crowly and Cas stay dead.

[Wayward Son]

I was reading over some speculation I posted over on Livejourjsl shortly after Stuck in the Middle (With You)! After The Future I had been hopeful of a happy ending, but I actually guessed how he'd die back then i.e quick and abrupt with no time for Goodbyes. His speech in Stuck in the Middle (With You) was his last hurrah!  The Main thing I was wrong about was that it'd be a deliberate sacrifice to save them! They gave the more heroic seeming death to Crowley.

Quote

This episode and the heartfelt death-bed speech have cemented my view that Castiel / Misha Collins will be gone by the end of the season. I know most consider him to be a safe character (and will celebrate or bemoan the fact depending on how they feel about Cas), but I have always disagreed. As much as I am a fan of Cas the only truly safe cast members are Jensen and Jared and everyone else is expandable. All the signs are pointing towards his exit this season.

Firstly, there's the credit change. It seemed like a minor change to me, to be honest I didn't even notice it until a friend mentioned it, but apparently having an "and Misha Collins" type credit is a massive boost to the resume of an actor. Misha's role on the show hasn't changed this year so why the sudden change? I wouldn't be surprised if it was organised as a favour to Misha to help him when seeking new roles for next season.

Secondly, Dabb has chosen to give him three centric episodes this year 12x10, this weeks episode and 12x19. Personally I wouldn't consider either episode to be especially Castiel centric. Lily Sunder Has Some Regrets focused on the story of Lily, which happened to feature a cameo from Castiel. This weeks episode was an ensemble piece where everyone had a part to play. However, Dabb has described them as Castiel centric so he clearly thinks of them as such. This change too is rather unexpected. The last Castiel centric episode we had was season six's The Man Who Would Be King. Why are we getting three of them all of a sudden? This, for me, is too good to be true. I think the most likely explanation is they want to give Misha plenty to do before he goes.

Thirdly, the narrative itself is pointing towards his exit. During First Blood there was a clear emphasis on the fact that Castiel believes the Winchesters are more essential to the fate of the world than he is. In my opinion this is a clear foreshadow of him later sacrificing himself so that they might live. 

Fourthly, they're taking alot of time to show us how much he has changed since Lazarus Rising. When we first meet him Castiel was a detached warrior of God. He had no particular investment in events and was solely focused on what he perceived as his duty to the greater good. We also know because of his soldier mission that Castiel was not one for owning up to his own actions as he was a follower. However, they are now showing us just how different Castiel has become. Castiel has become someone who is deeply invested in protecting the world and keeping those he views as family safe. This is shown through his speeches in First Bloodand Stuck in the Middle (With You). Castiel is someone who is willing to be held accountable for his past actions, as shown when he holds his hands up and admits the wrong he did to Lily. He was even willing to die if it helped ease her pain. Castiel is now someone who is interested in protecting the individual and no longer believes that a minor loss is as acceptable in the face of the greater good hence his desire to find a different way when they track down Kelly Klein. Again why the sudden need to empathise his changes to date unless its a reminder of his journey throughout the show before his death.

Fifthly, the fact that this weeks speech changed. Personally this is what has convinced me that Castiel will be dead by the end of the season. Bearing in mind the above, it reads to me as a form of closure for those like myself who are fans of his. I think when they do kill him off it will happen in an abrupt manner. There won't be time for goodbyes and heartfelt declarations, so Castiel's fans were given this instead.

Of course I could prove to be entirely wrong, but I just thought I'd share some speculations on why the speech occurred in this weeks episode :).

Edited May 19, 2017 by Wayward Son

[Morrigan2575]

29 minutes ago, Proteus said:

There's no way I believe that Crowly and Cas stay dead.

Yep. I lean towards Crowley being dead dead, while Cas just being mostly dead but, I really don't think they're both gone. I especially don't think Misha is gone...unless something goes wrong in contract negotiation.

Edited May 19, 2017 by Morrigan2575

[Wayward Son]

1 minute ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Yep. I lean towards Crowley being dead dead, while Casa just being mostly dead but, I really don't think they're both gone. I especially don't think Misha is gone...unless something goes wrong in contract negotiation.

Cas' body flashed and his wings showed on the ground! Unlike Crowley's 'death' in There's Something about Mary they haven't left themselves with much room for a "surprise he's alive!" Twist

[Morrigan2575]

Just now, Wayward Son said:

Cas' body flashed and his wings showed on the ground! Unlike Crowley's 'death' in There's Something about Mary they haven't left themselves with much room for a "surprise he's alive!" Twist

They absolutely have, you have a space/time rift that just got introduced in the season finale. You really think that introduction and specific explanation of not only an AU world but a being who has the power to open space and time isn't going to come into play in S13?

Are they dead in 1223? Absolutely. Will they remain dead permanently? I think Crowley/Mark is more likely to exit the show than Cas/Misha.

[Miles]

Why the overly convoluted plan to get rid of Lucifer? Rowena is without a doubt in hell. Crowley could spring her from there in about 5 seconds and she could have slammed Lucifer back in the cage.

Also if the portal-seal-spell needed a life then it shouldn't have worked. Crowley has been dead a loooooong time.

I don't think the other world would have had an apocalypse without the Winchesters. They were needed as vessels for Michael and Lucifer. For other perfect vessels to come along it should have taken a few more millennia.

I doubt Cas is dead-dead. The Nephilim will rebuild him, like god has done a few times. The son of an arc angel should have enough power for that.

Will be interesting to see how they get Marry back.

6 hours ago, DJG1122 said:

The Nephilim was Misha? All I saw was the yellow eyes. 

It wasn't. The dude didn't even look like him.

Edited May 19, 2017 by Miles

[Boopsahoy]

7 hours ago, catrox14 said:

And NO, I do not think it was meant to as 'Cas really meant both Dean and Sam were never born' . He was looking at Sam when he said it.

I absolutely took as BOTH of them. JMHO

[Demented Daisy]

6 hours ago, SueB said:

And he figured out how to melt down Angel blades into bullets.

It's already been done.  Season 8, The Great Escapist.  Crowley melted down an angel blade to make bullets.  He shot Castiel, which is how he got the angel tablet.

I don't think the spell worked.  One, it took entirely too long.  Two, the rift sealed after the nephilim was born.  I tend to think that he sealed it.  But I could easily be wrong.

I'm not angry, I'm just disappointed.  Rowena deserved so much better.  The best character they have created in years (IMO), and she didn't even get to fight for her life.

I'm tired.  So tired.

[Wayward Son]

IMO Rowena has the biggest chance of returning! With Crowley and Castiel their deaths were pretty definite. Crowley flickered while Castiel flickered and displayed his wings. Rowena's death on the other hand was much more ambiguous. She's a witch after all! She could have easily used a magical construct of some sort to trick Lucifer while making her great escape! Especially since we didn't see any of it on screen.

Edited May 19, 2017 by Wayward Son

[Geordiegirl1967]

So I am going to post what I thought before I read the thread as I want to get them down unfiltered by what others thought. I haven't rewatched yet so this is a first impressions opinion

I LOVED these eps, particularly ep22. It had everything I love about SPN. It focused on Dean and Sam, there were some great brotherly moments, both brothers were badass and clever.

Rather than taking each ep for comment I'm going comment on each storyline;

BMoL and rescuing Mary

Positives...

+ Loved Sam & Dean's escape from the Bunker; the brotherly talk, the teamwork, sweat and muscles (yes I am shallow) as they tried to pickaxe their way out, their determination to get out.

+ My heart broke for Dean during his journey into Mary's mind. His 'I hate you but I love you' speech had tears dripping off the end of my chin. And how typically unselfish of him to put it in terms of the impact her decisions had made on Sam, yet the price HE paid (no childhood, having to be Sam's Mum and Dad and his protector as well as his brother, and feeling like he'd failed at them) came shining through. Great writing. Great acting. Beautiful scene.

+ I loved Sam's speech, though as he was preaching to the converted it was slightly unnecessary. For Sam I think its purpose was more to show Dean how sorry he was for his decision making on the MoL and to prove his determination to make it right than it was to persuade the hunters to attack the MoL compound.

+ The hug and exchange between Dean and Sam was long overdue (like a SEASON overdue - they should've had an emotional moment like this in ep2 and many times since!) and was wonderful. 

+ Great fight with Ketch. Even a badly injured Dean held his own. Go Dean! And it was right that it was Mary who killed him.

+ Beautiful scene between Mary, Dean and Sam. Loved the family hug. 

+ Dean. Grenade launcher. Enough said.

+ Walt and his mate were back, providing a good round off to the unfinished business of them killing S&D. Only on SPN could that be dismissed with a 'no hard feelings' from their victims.

+ Jodie and Alex defeating Mrs SuperHunter Mary, and JODIE LIVES! I love Jodie's relationship with Dean and Sam. I am now hoping for ApocoBobby to come back to their world and hook up with her. I'm a Jobby (or maybe a Bodie?) shipper. Glad she killed Hess.

Mehs

~ the attack on the MoL compound was ok, but seeing humans having their brains blown out isn't my idea of fun so wasn't my favourite bit.

Overall 9.5/10 and by FAR my favourite ep of s12.

The Luci baby story

The positives

+ The other world was creepy and dark and a good reminder of what Dean and Sam saved the world from. It also showed very cleverly that, as selfish as Mary's deal was, and despite the damage it did to John, Dean and Sam, it ended up saving the world.

+ great special effects for this story; the other world, the portal etc

+ Crowley's arc; his resurrection, his redemption, his sacrifice all beautifully played and written. I will miss you Crowley but you came good in the end.

+ Kelly was a strong, brave and good person in the end. I liked her. I also liked her chemistry with Cas. Shame they couldn't have co parented Luci jnr but it wasn't to be.

+ BOBBY!!! Yes I know it isn't their Bobby but still. I am SOOOO hoping that next season they can mount a rescue from Apocalypse world because...

++ RUFUS!!! I have my hopes raised that next season they will rescue Mary, Bobby and Rufus. I love Bobby and Rufus's partnership. 

+ Luci is trapped in Apocalypse world. A victory of sorts but the best they would get.

The negatives

- Cas dying. I like Cas fine, though have felt for a long time that the writers haven't known what to do with him. So losing him doesn't upset me on an emotional level. BUT I feel like the show is manipulating the feelings of his fans in a bit of a cruel way. Firstly his death was pointless. Dean and Sam and Crowley had Lucifer on the ropes. Cas piling in was unnecessary. His intervention didn't make much difference so his death felt without meaning. Secondly does anyone really believe Misha is leaving the show? I don't. I think either the Nephilim will resurrect him or possess Cas's body. So it feels like the writers just want to send the Cas/Misha fans into a frenzy over the summer for no reason.

- Furious that Rowena is dead, and off screen too. I really enjoyed her as a character and that is yet another good female guest character they have killed off. Bad form. Unless of course she has tricked Lucifer again. She has done it before. 

- I think we have just swapped Crowley for Lucifer in terms of the regular bad guy of the show and I am not sure I want that. He is played out for me. Every second I see him on screen I feel like it cheapens what Sam and Dean sacrificed to lock him away and reminds me of Cas's utter and inexcusable stupidity in letting him out. Of course Crowley is also responsible for that when they could've locked him up the 2nd time.

- the canon fail re the Nephilim. We have had one on the show before. Cas killed him/her (can't recall which) without breaking sweat as part of the angel trials. They were an adult, leading a perfectly innocuous life. No angels had bothered them or tried to eliminate them. Rivers weren't boiling, locusts weren't swarming. They weren't evil. Now suddenly a Nephilim is a world ending being? Learn your own canon Dabb!!

Overall I thought they did a pretty good job with this story in the end though the pacing throughout the season has been poor.

8/10

[ParadoxLost]

2 hours ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Yep. I lean towards Crowley being dead dead, while Cas just being mostly dead but, I really don't think they're both gone. I especially don't think Misha is gone...unless something goes wrong in contract negotiation.

I don't think Mark or Misha is gone. 

I think the question is are Cas/Crowley dead and to be replaced by AU Cas/Crowley or in some combination. like Cas resurrected by Nephilim and AU Crowley becomes permanent.

Even I must admit that there are some problems integrating Cas and Crowley into the show now that they are so friendly/supportive of the Winchesters.  Crowley can't really become the protagonist anymore and they keep randomly sending Cas away on "missions" because they don't want him always as a third wheel when the Winchesters are hunting.  Not to mention the convoluted ways they have to handwave that Crowley or Cas can't snap their fingers and solve the problem of the week for the Winchesters.

I think they may be going for rebuilding those relationships from the beginning with the AU versions to solve a lot of the above.

[Boopsahoy]

9 minutes ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

- the canon fail re the Nephilim. We have had one on the show before. Cas killed him/her (can't recall which) without breaking sweat as part of the angel trials. They were an adult, leading a perfectly innocuous life. No angels had bothered them or tried to eliminate them. Rivers weren't boiling, locusts weren't swarming. They weren't evil. Now suddenly a Nephilim is a world ending being? Learn your own canon Dabb

This wasn't just an angel and human baby it was an  archangel and human baby-that's how I felt it was explained. JMHO Otherwise I pretty much agree with everything you said!

[Boopsahoy]

7 hours ago, catrox14 said:

At least, finally, at long last, the show finally, canonically, acknowledged that Dean has acted as a parent to Sam for much of his life. All the awards to Jensen for his work in that scene.  The first 'I hate you' was shocking and powerful and remarkable. Beautiful work

It was beautiful-I will admit to crying.

[Katy M]

7 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Man that pissed me off.  Dean fucking saved the world too. And NO, I do not think it was meant to as 'Cas really meant both Dean and Sam were never born' . He was looking at Sam when he said it.

Off to bitterness land I go.

He might have looked at Sam, but clearly they were both never born.  This was the universe from where Mary said no the YED and didn't bring John back.  SAm asked the question, so Cas looked at him when he answered.

[gonzosgirrl]

30 minutes ago, Katy M said:

He might have looked at Sam, but clearly they were both never born.  This was the universe from where Mary said no the YED and didn't bring John back.  SAm asked the question, so Cas looked at him when he answered.

Except the focus is squarely on Sam. Sam asks 'What the hell is this?'. Cas looks directly to him and says, 'This is a world where you were never born. It's a world you never saved." These writers, especially Dabb, know what they're doing. Saying, 'you and Dean' or 'you boys' would've been so easy. Even looking back and forth between them for such a momentous reveal would've been easy. IMO, they played it exactly how they meant it. Dean is rarely ever acknowledged as saving the world, or even helping facilitate it.

[Katy M]

3 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Except the focus is squarely on Sam. Sam asks 'What the hell is this?'. Cas looks directly to him and says, 'This is a world where you were never born. It's a world you never saved." These writers, especially Dabb, know what they're doing. Saying, 'you and Dean' or 'you boys' would've been so easy. Even looking back and forth between them for such a momentous reveal would've been easy. IMO, they played it exactly how they meant it. Dean is rarely ever acknowledged as saving the world, or even helping facilitate it.

Yes. SAm asked him what it was.  Cas looks directly at him, because he asked a question, and then he answers it.  Oh, the horror and rudeness of it all.  Looking at the person who asked you the question. WEll, it's OK, because he got his.

[ILoveReading]

10 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Yes. SAm asked him what it was.  Cas looks directly at him, because he asked a question, and then he answers it.  Oh, the horror and rudeness of it all.  Looking at the person who asked you the question. WEll, it's OK, because he got his.

Cas could have said, this is a world where you and Dean were never born.   I thought the you was clearly on Sam.  The camera certainly focused on Sam. 

Edited May 19, 2017 by ILoveReading

[mertensia]

I enjoyed this. Do I think Castiel's really, truly dead? Only if Misha wants off. Do I care if Cas is really dead? No.

Poor Kelly. First fighting with the IKEA customer service agent, then death.