The Keepers

[rabidchipmnk]

11 hours ago, MaryWebGirl said:

I feel like they never made it clear exactly what happened. I forgot who said it fairly early in the series that Cathy and Russell sort of requested living outside of the convent and working at a public school, but I honestly doubt that. I imagine they did make waves about Maskell, and the move was a compromise their superiors came up with. I'm sure the school wouldn't just let a well-liked, energetic teacher waltz off to the public sector. 

The story was that Cathy thought she couldn't advise students how to deal with living in the real world when her only experiences were in the cloistered nun-life, so she and Russell requested to do an experiment of teaching at a public high school and living outside. It wasn't a punishment. IIRC TPTB had decided the experiment was not worth continuing beyond the current semester, but Cathy had not yet been told that when she was murdered in November.

it sounded to me like the whole thing was her idea.  If it was related to the rapes (which I suppose we don't 100% know), it could have served a purpose of her getting an outside perspective on how to deal with it; she had to have known that no one inside the school and possibly in the diocese was going to address it, and the cops were compromised too as we saw.  I could see how she might want to be very deliberate about how to act, since it would be very easy just to transfer him away again. Didn't work out that way, as we know.

Just speculation on my part.

[ElleMo]

4 hours ago, rabidchipmnk said:

The story was that Cathy thought she couldn't advise students how to deal with living in the real world when her only experiences were in the cloistered nun-life, so she and Russell requested to do an experiment of teaching at a public high school and living outside. It wasn't a punishment. IIRC TPTB had decided the experiment was not worth continuing beyond the current semester, but Cathy had not yet been told that when she was murdered in November.

it sounded to me like the whole thing was her idea.  If it was related to the rapes (which I suppose we don't 100% know), it could have served a purpose of her getting an outside perspective on how to deal with it; she had to have known that no one inside the school and possibly in the diocese was going to address it, and the cops were compromised too as we saw.  I could see how she might want to be very deliberate about how to act, since it would be very easy just to transfer him away again. Didn't work out that way, as we know.

Just speculation on my part.

Hmm, that is an interesting take. I never thought of it like that.  But Russell continued to live in the apartment and even got another roommate.

[jeansheridan]

On Friday, June 02, 2017 at 7:41 PM, skittl3862 said:

But I got chills when they slowly panned to the nun mannequin in the attic. That's just fucking creepy.

And unnecessary.   The story is horrific enough.  All that extra flare drives me batty.

[rabidchipmnk]

On 6/7/2017 at 5:22 AM, ElleMo said:

Hmm, that is an interesting take. I never thought of it like that.  But Russell continued to live in the apartment and even got another roommate.

To continue my speculation: maybe it's like that myth where if your roommate dies you get straight As and everyone treats you nice through the semester?  I did think it was weird that she got another roommate though... like the roommate said, I would have been paranoid every second I was in that parking lot, however irrational I knew those fears to be.

I wish we'd heard more from Russell.  It sounded like she knew more than most about what was going on, and I don't know what that could mean.

Edited June 9, 2017 by rabidchipmnk
noun-article agreement is our friend

[rabidchipmnk]

8 hours ago, jeansheridan said:

And unnecessary.   The story is horrific enough.  All that extra flare drives me batty.

AND THEY PUT IT AS THE EPISODE LOADING FREEZE-FRAME TOO AGH

I think it's the faceless face.  ughhhhhhh it's too late for these images to be back in my head I need to google some pictures of kittens now.

[Pogojoco]

On the subject of Cathy teaching in a public school- if she was thinking about no longer being a nun (perhaps to marry Gerry), she might've been trying to get teaching experience/connections in the public school system, too. It's not clear that's exactly why- but it's a possibility. 

Maskell is concerned enough about Cathy and what she's going to say to show up at her apt with back up to intimidate her. And to threaten teenage girls with guns. 

[rabidchipmnk]

3 hours ago, Pogojoco said:

On the subject of Cathy teaching in a public school- if she was thinking about no longer being a nun (perhaps to marry Gerry), she might've been trying to get teaching experience/connections in the public school system, too. It's not clear that's exactly why- but it's a possibility. 

Yeah, that's another good point.  Even if it wasn't all about Gerry it seemed she was definitely considering de-nunnifying.  It would also be a trial run for HER to be in the real world, since it sounded like she started ...nun seminary(?) pretty young without ever having to be an adult in the world herself.  And I'm sure (or I hope) all the sexual abuse didn't do a lot to convince her to stay inside the church either...

[jeansheridan]

Ha!  But actually it irritates me that the producers made the nun habit/uniform creepy.  I mean the opening credits have positive images of Cathy in her habit but there is something annoying to me on how they are using one of her most identifying features to create a scary feeling.  

It is a bit like that long blonde Alice in Wonderland wig on the recreation actress.  I am sure Jean had long hair in that era but I got tired of seeing this girl walking to her doom over and over.  I would have preferred to see modern day, survivor Jean or spent more time with the other woman.  Or learned about the ones who didn't make it due to drugs or suicide.  

Edited June 10, 2017 by jeansheridan

[TexasGal]

On 5/28/2017 at 11:07 AM, iMonrey said:

What I want to know is what happened to the evidence they dug up in the graveyard. Someone needs to put to rest what's really in there. You have "deep throat" saying one thing, and the D.A. saying another. As the reporter said, one of them is lying. 

Me too!!  

Spoiler

I kept hoping it would be addressed at least in passing in later episodes, like when they had the Baltimore County guy being interviewed, but nope.  Where are the boxes?  They couldn't tell us they were lost?  Destroyed?  Whatever?!

[Pumpernickel1727]

On 6/10/2017 at 8:05 AM, jeansheridan said:

Ha!  But actually it irritates me that the producers made the nun habit/uniform creepy.  I mean the opening credits have positive images of Cathy in her habit but there is something annoying to me on how they are using one of her most identifying feature to create a scary feeling.  It is a bit like that long blonde Alice in Wonderland wig on the recreation actress.  I am sure Jean had long hair in that era but I got tired of seeing this girl walking to her doom over and over.  I would have preferred to see modern day, survivor Jean or spent more time with the other woman.  Or learned about the ones who didn't make it due to drugs or suicide.  

I feel Skippy, who was known to go around dressed as a pregnant nun, placed it on the mannequin in the attic to drive Billy crazy, which he sadly succeeded in doing.

On 5/23/2017 at 9:12 AM, teddysmom said:

I thought the necklace was given to the first wife the Christmas following Cathy's death, which would have just been 5-6 weeks later.

The doc never explained any connection between Maskell and Billy & Edgar, but it also never gave a reason, if there wasn't a connection, why they would kill her.

And if they used her car to transport her to wherever they did kill her, and went to all the trouble to bring it back, why not go ahead and park it legally.

I don't believe the reporter saying that the priest Cathy was friends with killed her or knew something.

The fact that Maskell took Jean to the body proves that he knew it was going to happen and where she ended up. But how big are your balls that you dare to take someone to a dead body and tell them "this is what happens when you bad mouth people".

There IS a connection between Maskell and Edgar. Search "A Baltimore Storm" on Facebook.

[IntrovertRed]

On 6/14/2017 at 4:03 PM, Pumpernickel1727 said:

I feel Skippy, who was known to go around dressed as a pregnant nun, placed it on the mannequin in the attic to drive Billy crazy, which he sadly succeeded in doing.

There IS a connection between Maskell and Edgar. Search "A Baltimore Storm" on Facebook.

I've been reading the Facrbook group, from what I can tell, Edgar's niece Debbie is admin of the group?  Where does she specify the connection, I haven't been able to find it on that group.

[Duke Silver]

I only became consciously aware of this story a few months ago w/ some pre-release press article about the Netflix series.  Since then, I was aware the project gained significant PR momentum, but I intentionally avoided being spoiled.  I finally binged all 7 episodes over the past 48 hours.

My reaction?  Rage.  An unrelenting silent scream.

I was raised Catholic.  I was an altar boy, but can state I was not abused, nor was anyone I personally knew growing up in a small town w/ a priest who was sincerely a man of God, and more importantly, was legitimately a good man period.  As a young adult, however, I left the church, sickened by the continual stories of abuse aided & abetted by the church hierarchy.  Combined w/ my  general sense of something rotten to the core, I just could no longer associate myself w/ such a vile institution.  This story angers me in indescribable ways.  Calling it "anger" or "rage" doesn't even do justice to the feelings the series evoked.

My stomach has churned non-stop the past 48 hours.

[CaughtOnTape]

On 5/23/2017 at 10:54 AM, teddysmom said:

Anyone else who saw Spotlight notice that Richard Sipe was featured in The Keepers?

He is an ex priest who started studying priests who abuse children.  They used his formulas to determine how many priests in Boston might be involved, based on the total number of priests in the Archdiocese.  And figured out that 13 was too low, he estimated 90 and I think they ended up with a figure in the high 80s. 

He wasn't seen in Spotlight, but was played by Richard Jenkins in phone conversations with the reporters.   John Slattery as Ben Bradlee Jr referred to him as a hippie shacked up with an ex nun.

Because I'm a glutton for punishment, I watched Spotlight again last night, and in the conversation with Mark Ruffalo's character,  Sipe mentions that he started out in Baltimore. 

I just found it interesting that his work is being used in so many of these abuse cases.  

He's also interviewed in Mea Maxima Culpa.  He doesn't seem like a hippie to me though.  He seems like someone who is supremely pissed off this was going on and that nothing was done to stop it.  And that he's been vilified for trying to stop it by telling the truth.

On 5/23/2017 at 4:29 PM, pamplemousse said:

Why is the Catholic Church and its population of priests such a hotbed for pedophiles? Does its culture create pedophiles or are pedophiles attracted to it because of the power over and opportunities to interact with children, or a combination of both?

How can anyone still believe in Catholicism when it is abundantly clear that the Catholic Church has no goodwill or love towards its laity and no compunction in doing them grievous lifelong harm and have the utmost contempt for the people it is supposed to be serving?

I don't know if I'd consider it a hotbed for pedophiles more than the fact that there are so many instances of cover ups  which lends itself to the sensationalistic aspect of everything.  

In real life, when someone is accused of being a pedophile they are reviled and harshly judged even before any proof is gleaned.  If they are convicted, they are put on a list and not allowed to work or play or live within ten feet of any kid friendly areas.  They are taken out of the equation so they can't re-offend.  

In church life, they are told to stop it and moved somewhere so they can do it again.  They are put back into circulation with children and not given any kind of therapy.  As with most things in the religious world...if you pray hard enough, God will take away the bad thoughts.  Just confess and you're fine!  Which is why I don't subscribe to any religion any more.  

I don't think it's a matter of it being more especially prevalent in a religious setting but more a matter of it making the news EVERY TIME it happens because it's the Catholic church not taking responsibility for it and constantly sweeping it under the rug.  The story is always the same when they refute they knew anything.  It's either A) we never knew it was a problem or B) we didn't know it was a problem until after he'd been taken out of circulation.  And then evidence is uncovered revealing they did know.  And how well they knew.  

Spotlight was appalling because everything was in letters.  Black and white.  Stamped.  Received.  Like who the hell would deny they knew KNOWING EVIDENCE EXISTS!?!?!??!  It's mind blowing the arrogance of that religion.

I think hard core Catholics are able to still believe because they convince themselves that had the offenders simply prayed harder they wouldn't have been so susceptible to the bad things.  Be a better Catholic and all that.  And asking someone to give up their entire belief system is a tall order, even if they are proven to be terrible.  Religions also teach that we are imperfect and fallible.  Which means it's not the RELIGION that's the problem, it's the people that are.  

I believe Richard Sipe was the one who stated at the end of Mea Maxima Culpa what his answer was when he is asked things like how he could defend the religion and he stated something along the lines of the religion being the people, not the leaders who run it.  I'd have to look up the quote, but it was actually pretty spot on.

I will say this for Catholicism....Pope Frances seems like a good dude.  He hasn't denied anything.  He hasn't gone out and personally sat down with any victims, but he's done far better than the asshole before him who absolutely knew every bit of what was going on.  He seems to understand his religion is imperfect and he tries.  

[teddysmom]

Quote

Why is the Catholic Church and its population of priests such a hotbed for pedophiles

Tell men they can't have sex.  Some of them will be okay somehow, some will go ahead and find women or adult men to be with discreetly,  and evil people will be evil, no matter what their profession. 

I just read an article about Stephen Colbert, who is a very devout Catholic, always wanting to argue religion with Ricky Gervais, who is an atheist.  I don't see how Colbert can get on his high horse about the Catholic Church knowing what has gone on and been covered up. How about having the NY Archbishop on and discuss the abuse scandal? Why pick on Ricky? He's entitled to his opinion and belief.  Last time I checked there isn't an atheist sex abuse scandal going on for hundreds of years. 

[OtterMommy]

1 hour ago, CaughtOnTape said:

I don't know if I'd consider it a hotbed for pedophiles more than the fact that there are so many instances of cover ups  which lends itself to the sensationalistic aspect of everything.    

I think there are a lot of factors, but there is another thing to keep in mind around it being a "hotbed."  I'm not saying it doesn't happen--it's very obvious that it happens, probably more than in many other fields.  There is also an institutional sort of tolerance, or at least blind-eye-turning of it (or at least there was until very recently) within the Church.  However, I think one should also keep this in mind before thinking that every Catholic priest is a pedophile--when it comes out to the point that the public knows about it, it becomes news and, frequently, sensationalized.  I think it is very likely that abuse by a priest is much more likely to make the news than abuse by, say, a family friend or relative.

I think a better example would be the Boy Scouts.  Several years ago, there were a number of cases of abuse that came out within the Boy Scouts and, for a while, Boy Scout Leaders as a group became a bit suspect (if my memory serves, this happened right before the abuses of the Catholic church came out, which then became the headline).  Now, it could very well have been that the cases within the Boy Scouts that came to light were the only cases (or at least the majority of the cases), but because of the publicity given to them, it made it seem like there were far more cases than there actually were.

Now, I do think that abuse is/was far more widespread in the Catholic Church than in the Boy Scouts and I commend the Boy Scouts for handling this far better than the Catholic church.  But, my point is that not every Catholic priest is a pedophile--in fact, I think a vast majority of them are not.  But because of these horrific cases that have come out, and the fact that the Catholic Church was actively trying to cover cases up and was slow to do anything to address the problem, it may seem like abuse is far more prevalent in the Church than it actually is.

[MaryWebGirl]

Perhaps the church is a hotbed for abusers, but sadly kids are abused by all kinds of people in many different situations. Growing up there was a huge scandal locally to me about a leader in a Baptist church who abused kids in the congregation. It wasn't national news because it was one person in one church. But when you can group abusers by an easily-defined organization like the Catholic church (or as @OtterMommy mentioned the Boy Scouts) it looks like a pattern. When you add in that the organization protects the offenders, in this case going right up to one of the most powerful men in the world, it's even more egregious. 

[Captanne]

NPR did an article last night on this show.  Unfortunately, I got home and parked before it came on.  Any enterprising person might want to hunt it down.  I'll try from the office today if I have time.  Just wanted to mention I had heard the lead in (is that what an upcoming article advertisement is called in radio?)

 

ETA:  http://www.npr.org/2017/06/21/533797877/before-her-teachers-murder-this-keepers-witness-was-already-living-a-nightmare

Edited June 22, 2017 by Captanne
Added link.

[ElleMo]

17 hours ago, OtterMommy said:

Now, I do think that abuse is/was far more widespread in the Catholic Church than in the Boy Scouts and I commend the Boy Scouts for handling this far better than the Catholic church.  But, my point is that not every Catholic priest is a pedophile--in fact, I think a vast majority of them are not.  But because of these horrific cases that have come out, and the fact that the Catholic Church was actively trying to cover cases up and was slow to do anything to address the problem, it may seem like abuse is far more prevalent in the Church than it actually is.

The abuse at these two organizations were far, far different.  

The Catholic Church scandal would be more akin to abuse in the Hasidic communities and other religious groups/ sects/ cults, but on a larger scale. 

First off, the Catholic Church is a very powerful organization.  The Boy Scouts is not.  BS did not have the power to shuffle around pedophiles to avoid scrutiny like the Church did.   BS did not involve the police and if police were involved,  BS  did their best to convince cops to cover things up, but at least they banned pedophiles once the abuse was uncovered while the church sent priests to another parish. (In most cases at least;  there were a few who were allowed to stay on, but it was not systemic tolerance)

The abuse was done by spiritual leaders who were able to convince people that this was the will of God or that they were being punished for things that they had done.  Because they were so respected, because they were considered the mouth of God, they were able to convince people that nothing was going on.  They used faith against them.  It was very hard for many people to accept what was going on; to do so would shatter their faith.  Hearing that a Boy Scout leader raped a child does not give you the same crisis of faith.

Boy Scout leaders have authority over kids only on Boy Scouts.  Priests had authority in many aspects of life.  School (if they went to Catholic school;  CCD classes if the kids went to other schools),  mass (especially when dealing with altar boys), confession, CYO after school and summer activities, etc.  Since the 1980s, the Boy Scouts had rules against adults being alone with the kids.  Church had no such rules and altar boys and students  were alone with priests often.

Another issue about the Boy Scouts is that there were a lot of people from all walks of life involved in the Scouts.  Den mothers, parents  and other adults around might question odd behaviors.   Priests were generally not questioned.  The pedophile on Boy Scouts might answer to staff or other leaders who have kids themselves and these would be protective of their kids and other kids.

 For me, the biggest problem is:  the Priests in charge of disciplining pedophiles would consider it a sin.  But the sin of pedophilia, is equal to homosexuality and even adultery.   So while moving the priest who is having a consensual affair with an adult may be a good idea (reducing temptation etc.), doing the same for pedophile is  absolutely not. 

I cannot express how angry I am that these priests were not turned over to the police.  They didn't even follow their own teachings. Render under Caeser what is Caeser's!  It is the law's place to prosecute these priests.  

Edited June 22, 2017 by ElleMo

[OtterMommy]

4 hours ago, ElleMo said:

The abuse at these two organizations were far, far different.  

 

I don't disagree that the abuse was quite different and you brought up some great points.  I was bringing the Boy Scouts in as an example of how the pubic / those not involved tended to perceive the situation and to point out that, in both cases, the publicity around the abuse may have made it seem like the abuse was more prevalent than it actually was (something I think might apply more to the Boy Scouts than to the Catholic Church).

[film noire]

11 hours ago, ElleMo said:

Another issue about the Boy Scouts is that there were a lot of people from all walks of life involved in the Scouts.  Den mothers, parents  and other adults around might question odd behaviors.   Priests were generally not questioned.  The pedophile on Boy Scouts might answer to staff or other leaders who have kids themselves and these would be protective of their kids and other kids.

Excellent post. (I'd just add that the Boy Scouts didn't put money down on an island in an insane (thwarted) plan to quarantine pedophile priests, or give millions of dollars, budgeted annually,  to "fixers" to buy the silence of victims and their families.) After watching the widespread reach of pedophilia in "Mea Maxima Culpa: Silence In The House of God",  I'm sure there are hundreds of still unknown victims, their horrific stories hidden in documents the Vatican might never release.  Pedophilia in the church is vast, global (Ireland alone is a horrifying tale of institutionalized child rape and murder, and Latin America is fast becoming the new Ireland) and still unchecked. And that's not even including/dealing with nuns -- those who molested children, and those who were raped and molested themselves (some estimates as high as 30 percent of nuns) by priests. Many of them are in Africa and (when pregnant) were "encouraged"  to undergo abortions:

"The Vatican reports cited countless cases of nuns forced to have sex with priests. Some were obliged to take the pill, others became pregnant and were encouraged to have abortions. In one case in which an African sister was forced to have an abortion, she died during the operation and her aggressor led the funeral mass. Another case involved 29 sisters from the same congregation who all became pregnant to priests in the diocese."

http://ebooks.rahnuma.org/religion/Christianity/Sexual_Abuse_of_Nuns/1- The Independent - Rape of Nuns by Priest in 23 Countries.pdf

That report is almost sixteen years old.  Who knows how many more young nuns have been raped since then?

Here's a first person account: "Former nun Yvonne Maes brings a shocking human focus to a Vatican study that claims the sexual abuse of nuns by priests is widespread. Maes says she was raped repeatedly by an Irish missionary in Africa, the hotbed of the sexual activity detailed in the Vatican report, and suffered dreadful emotional and spiritual consequences. “I’ve lost my faith,” said Maes, who was a nun for 35 years “I wanted to change the world and I thought religion was the way. But after what happened – after they bullied me and tried to cover up what happened – the only way that I could tell the truth was to leave. Now, I’m not a Catholic anymore.”

http://nypost.com/2001/03/29/former-nun-i-was-raped-by-priest-says-abusive-cleric-took-her-innocence-then-her-faith/

If we ever get the full truth, I think the Church will be revealed as the largest and worst form of "not for profit" sex trafficking in history.

Edited June 23, 2017 by film noire

[Scarlett45]

My Mom was raised Catholic, she is the same age (roughly) as these women featured. She however had a loving upbringing and looked up to the nuns and priests that taught her- no experiences with sex abuse towards or self or her peers (that she ever knew about). Despite her personal experiences in catholic school she chose not to send me because she did not like the institutional misogyny of the church. 

 

Holy hell These poor women. Sister Cathy was such a kind/loving soul who really did want to enrich the life of her students. 

Edited June 23, 2017 by Scarlett45

[Scarlett45]

On 6/4/2017 at 8:12 PM, ElleMo said:

I think it is a sampling bias. First, not every abuse victim will speak up .  Also, on the last episode, one of the women  said she knew the names of 35 women who were victims and some of them were no longer alive because of suicide and drugs.  

I obviously have no proof of this, but I am positive that this doctor performed back alley abortions on some of the girls in the school.  Why else would he have his personal oncall gynecologist????  No better way to seriously fuck up a catholic girl then to have a priest rape her, get her pregnant and be forced to have an abortion.  Those girls are very likely to become drug addicts or develop severe depression.  

Also, even if they were still alive, they may not want to speak about it.  Even with the other women talking about it, there is a lot of shame and self blame.  Catholics consider abortion murder.  It's difficult enough for abused people to recognize that the abuse was not their fault;  it's got to be more difficult when you consider yourself a murderer.

I am so humbled with how these women have been able to go ahead with their lives and recover from this horrific abuse.

I can understand why the parents trusted the priest to counsel their daughters.  It was how they were raised and was the societal norm at the time.  But who the hell thinks it is ok for a priest to take their child to a gyn.  (Or any doctor for that matter?)

I agree with you that it's a sampling bias. 

 

I am surprised we haven't heard about any of these priests "disappearing" because a parent/other loved one took the law into their own hands and sought revenge. It's hard of me to imagine the abuse these women have gone through, but I think what's worse is that they had NO ONE they felt they could confide in all these years. (besides Sister Cathy) They didn't think they could go to their parents/an aunt or uncle, someone else in the community they could trust to protect them from those evil men. 

[bilgistic]

I've told very few people other than internet strangers (not my family) about my having been abused and raped, and these were just random guys, not priests. Rape culture is a disease that poisons everyone.

[Scarlett45]

11 minutes ago, bilgistic said:

I've told very few people other than internet strangers (not my family) about my having been abused and raped, and these were just random guys, not priests. Rape culture is a disease that poisons everyone.

I am so very terribly sorry that happened to you. 

[bilgistic]

Thank you. My situation was relatively mild, but there are millions of survivors out here, and millions of untold stories. I have so much rage for doubters of these brave women and any survivors who speak up. Rage is a good word for what I feel about this whole series.

[OtterMommy]

2 hours ago, bilgistic said:

I've told very few people other than internet strangers (not my family) about my having been abused and raped, and these were just random guys, not priests. Rape culture is a disease that poisons everyone.

I'm so sorry...my heart breaks for you.

[Captanne]

Remember, Father Maskell clearly is accused of grooming his victims and carefully selecting children who had already been abused in their lives.  Their adult support structure was already severely compromised as well as their young views of that support structure.  (Not only were their family members already abusing them, but their impressions would be that the adults in their lives were not able to protect them from anything.)  Maskell then convinced them the family abuse was their own fault.

That is a toxic mix and creates a weakened, vulnerable child open to more abuse with no safety net.

That helps explain why the children didn't tell their adult family and why, in that ignorance, no adults raced to their defense.

[Scarlett45]

14 minutes ago, Captanne said:

Remember, Father Maskell clearly is accused of grooming his victims and carefully selecting children who had already been abused in their lives.  Their adult support structure was already severely compromised as well as their young views of that support structure.  (Not only were their family members already abusing them, but their impressions would be that the adults in their lives were not able to protect them from anything.)  Maskell then convinced them the family abuse was their own fault.

That is a toxic mix and creates a weakened, vulnerable child open to more abuse with no safety net.

That helps explain why the children didn't tell their adult family and why, in that ignorance, no adults raced to their defense.

Of course I am not blaming the children at all for what happened to them, and I understand due to their upbringing why they felt they had no one they could confide in, I suppose my point is that the abuse is bad enough (of course I would not want any one to have to go through that), but the psychological impact of believing that it was your fault stays with someone a lot longer than the physical scars. 

 

I understand it it was the 1960s, but I want to know where were the parents of these teenaged girls who were so sheltered from the world they thought a grown man asking them to perform fellatio was an "okay" thing (even if he was a priest), or that his semen is  was the Holy Spirit. What the ever loving fuck?! These girls were not mentally disabled in anyway, just kept ignorant and groomed by disgusting men. I hope those men burn in hell. 

[Captanne]

Right!  All I'm getting at is that it's entirely possible that the children he selected didn't have parents they trusted to protect them.  That could be why there is no evidence of the parents taking matters into their own hands.  They may have been completely ignorant.

I went to a secular all-girls boarding school from 4th grade through 12th grade.  I'm sure (because I'm not naive) that there were student/teacher "relationships".  However, I was never aware of a single one.  Hell, I never even knew the teachers had a veritable Peyton Place going on until many years later.

[MaryWebGirl]

@film noire that's horrible, but not especially shocking. I thought it was pretty telling that all of the women they talked to who had worked with Sister Cathy were no longer nuns.

[film noire]

1 hour ago, MaryWebGirl said:

@film noire that's horrible, but not especially shocking. I thought it was pretty telling that all of the women they talked to who had worked with Sister Cathy were no longer nuns.

Very telling.

[film noire]

16 hours ago, bilgistic said:

I've told very few people other than internet strangers (not my family) about my having been abused and raped, and these were just random guys, not priests. Rape culture is a disease that poisons everyone.

So sorry you had to live through that -- all good thoughts coming your way, Bilgistic.

[AllyS]

And this is why I am now an atheist. I attended Catholic school all my life. I was never sexually abused by a family member or a priest. I was abused verbally and emotionally by 2 priests. The show takes me back to that and I would be just a few years above this time frame. I told my devout mother who said the priest see's through God's eyes, my dad said "Screw this". I left Catholic school for 9th grade. 

This show takes me back to a time that was terrible, but not sexually abusive or life threatening, god knows what could have happened because that same priest went on to be the Chaplain of the Catholic high school I would have attended.

[Scarlett45]

On 6/3/2017 at 0:27 AM, Soobs said:

The D.A. seemed to remember a lot more about her "little red convertible" than she did about some pictures that were maybe all wet or something. Or maybe they were just papers or magazine photos? But definitely not pictures that someone took because she would have remembered that. She seemed full of shit to me. Deep Throat could be too, but he has less of a reason to lie and more at stake for telling the truth. The D.A. was in her job til 2004.

Brother Bob really didn't have to kill Catherine as no one believed or cared about the girls anyway. If she'd have gone to the cops, I really don't think anything would have been done.

Had Catherine gone to their superiors with what she knew there would've been some reprocushions for Brother Bob & Maskell. The word of a nun meant more than the words of the victims. I don't think that they would've been arrested but the archdiocese would've moved then to keep gossip down. Also with as many victims as there were in that town, at least one would've had family that sought revenge. Bob & Maskell may have ended up mutilated in a ditch......think about what happened to the man that molested Maya Angelou when she was a little girl....(a famous example). 

Edited June 24, 2017 by Scarlett45

[bilgistic]

2 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

Had Catherine gone to their superiors with what she knew there would've been some reprocushions for Brother Bob & Maskell. The word of a nun meant more than the words of the victims. I don't think that they would've been arrested but the archdiocese would've moved then to keep gossip down. Also with as many victims as there were in that town, at least one would've had family that sought revenge. Bob & Maskell may have ended up mutilated in a ditch......think about what happened to the man that molested Maya Angelou when she was a little girl....(a famous example). 

You mean the same superiors that kept moving Maskell, a known abuser, to different schools? We don't know that Cathy didn't tell someone. We do know that children were horribly abused and the abuse was covered up by the church. We also know that rarely if ever did anyone publicly doubt the authority of the Catholic church in 1960s and 1970s Baltimore.

[Scarlett45]

9 hours ago, bilgistic said:

You mean the same superiors that kept moving Maskell, a known abuser, to different schools? We don't know that Cathy didn't tell someone. We do know that children were horribly abused and the abuse was covered up by the church. We also know that rarely if ever did anyone publicly doubt the authority of the Catholic church in 1960s and 1970s Baltimore.

The church kept moving Maskell to protect him because people were complaining about his abuse of young girls. The church was afraid his crimes were going to come down on THEM (rightfully so).

 

They weren't moving him for him to view the sights of various cities. No one is doubting the church horrifically covered up the abuse of these girls but if no one cared about the abuse at all there would've been nothing to cover up. The cover-up is an admission of knowledge and guilt, hence why I said above that had Sister Cathy had a chance to talk "publicly" there would've been repercussions, not the proper ones with that piece of shit thrown under the jail but, repercussions. That's why they wanted her dead. 

[Scarlett45]

On 5/28/2017 at 9:56 PM, OtterMommy said:

Unless Skippy was name only used by some.  As you said, Skippy is a strange name for an adult (the only Skippy I ever knew was a dog, but whatever) and I highly doubt that anyone would name their child that.  But, if they were part of a community that was not socially accepted, such as the gay community in a very Catholic city in the middle of the 20th century, I could see whoever this is adopting a name only used socially in that circle.  And it is possible that Skippy is also Brother Bobby?

That being said, I think it is a possibility that there are others out there who have information about this case that they haven't shared.  Whether this show will make a difference is yet to be seen.

Yeah I understand what you mean. I don't know quite how "Skippy" and Bill actually figure into the murder but I don't think the women being interviewed are just pulling things out of their ass. 

 

I could see Maskell and his evil cronies blackmailing gay men they knew to do their dirty work/dispose of the body because in 1960s Balitomore being gay WAS a crime. A priest accusing you of being in a gay bar meant the end of your ability to find a job/live in your community at the very least. Those pieces of shit like Maskell were raping and torturing KIDS but able to get away with it because they were priests and were higher in the social hierarchy than a gay man just living his life socializing with other adults. Also pedophiles do tend to run in circles and "share" victims, so yes I know Maskell knew other pedophiles who worked in various spheres in Balitimore society that could help him cover up crimes. 

Edited June 24, 2017 by Scarlett45

[Scarlett45]

On 5/23/2017 at 5:29 PM, pamplemousse said:

Why is the Catholic Church and its population of priests such a hotbed for pedophiles? Does its culture create pedophiles or are pedophiles attracted to it because of the power over and opportunities to interact with children, or a combination of both?

How can anyone still believe in Catholicism when it is abundantly clear that the Catholic Church has no goodwill or love towards its laity and no compunction in doing them grievous lifelong harm and have the utmost contempt for the people it is supposed to be serving?

I do not believe the culture creates pedophiles. I don't think you can "create" a pedophile or a serial rapist. Igornant people have said that it's the "celibate lifestyle" that makes these men abuse children- that's absolutely not true. Most child abusers have access to willing adult partners but want to hurt kids. 

 I believe those men that get off on power and control, who want "socially appropriate access" to vulnerable people are attracted to the priesthood. Think about it, they are given "God Like Status" in their community, they are revered, they have a way to exercise their ambition (moving up within the ranks of the church). I would say most people that enter this life are doing it for the right reasons (most as in over 50%) because they want to serve others, but human nature being what it is they usually aren't the ones in power in the organization because they are spending their time serving the community.

The higher-ups in the Catholic Church that covered up these abuses are horrible people that are NOT what faith/god is about, but churches are run by "men" and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

I certainly understand how how someone can have a proud faith but no trust in an organized religion given how people use the structure of the church to abuse others.

On 5/24/2017 at 10:41 AM, IndianPaintbrush said:

Richard Sipe is a psychotherapist who has done extensive research on priests and sexuality.  The Boston Globe's Spotlight team used him in their reporting.  According to Sipe, the culture of celibacy and repressed sexuality is the main problem:

I can see how this would be a huge problem for priests who were ordained before the 1960s. They were more likely to go straight from high school to seminary with no sexual experience. Add in a culture where pedophilia isn't talked about and the long-term effects on children aren't understood, and you have a recipe for disaster.

I can believed the forced celibacy can make someone sexually frustrated (especially before they haven't had sexual experiences as adults), but priests have been "focibibly celibate" for hundreds of years. In the renaissance priests kept open mistresses (it was only during the reformation did the church make them crack down on that), it was expected that you would remain unmarried but not celibate. Priests having affairs with nuns, married women and older widows probably happened EXPONENTIALLY more frequently than sex abuse of minors but isn't walked about because the parties were willing adults. We also hear less of nuns abusing kids due to statistics and sexism (women can be abusers as well)  

I don't think sexual frustration turns a "normal" human being into a sadist like Maskell who gets off by psychologically torturing kids.

On 5/29/2017 at 0:15 PM, Proclone said:

I'm a nurse, and to be honest Edgar might have had a stroke and/or dementia, but what he looked most like to me was someone schizophrenia and/or bipolar disorder.  He has a flat affect (facial expression), and he's reluctant to make eye contact.  That's just my take.  I used to deal with a lot of patients with mental illness in general (my hospital was one of only a couple with a psych ward and when those patient's got medically ill they sent them to my floor) and a number of elderly patients with mental illness, and even when they just showed him walking from afar, that was the first thought that popped into my mind when they showed Edgar.  I might be wrong, I am in no way able to diagnose any illness, especially not through the TV, but that's just the impression I got.

I also don't think we can forget that many of those abusive Priests, were also victims of abuse themselves.  Priests were almost always alter boys when they were kids.  It was one hell of a sick cycle.  Priest abuses alter boy, alter boy never tells, he gets older and goes to seminary, becomes a priest, and then abuses one of his alter boys.  It's an unfortunate fact that often those abused go on to become abusers.  One of the former Priests in Spotlight tells them that he never "hurt" the boys because he was abused himself.

I'm sure Sipe is right, that celibacy does play a part, but I think anytime you have a organization that tells you that certain members are the gateway to God and salvation and you don't have the right to question them (which is exactly what kids were taught about Priests when my mom was growing up and she'd be a contemporary with the Keough girls), you are just going to attract a certain amount of people who get off on wielding power over others.  Then you put them in charge over vulnerable populations (kids) and you making a recipe for abuse, whether or not celibacy is in the mix.  Just my opinion.  Because abuse isn't always about sex, a lot of times it's about power.

That whole story was really weird, and he told as if it wasn't bizarre.  I wonder if his memory has taken something that really happened and conflated it into this weird bizarre story over the years.  I wonder if the police did show him autopsy photos or maybe even threw a wrapped up piece of meat on the desk and said something like, "This is what the coroner is doing to your girlfriend right now, cutting her up."  I can't imagine cops even during that time period taking a real body part and showing it to a suspect.

Also did anyone else think that Cathy was telling Gerry in the letter they read, in a round about way that she wasn't pregnant.  She starts the letter by telling him (paraphrased) that she's moody because her period just came...ten days late.  I don't know about anyone else, but I don't usually include the state of my menstrual cycle in romantic letters.  Perhaps she had spoken to him before and told him she was late, and this was a way to let him know she wasn't pregnant.  This might be part of reason Gerry conflated the story about uterus/vagina wrapped in newspaper.  He was already preoccupied thinking about Cathy's reproductive organs, then she's murdered, and the police show him...something and his brain makes it the organ that might have given birth to his kids.  I know that's a lot of supposition, but it's just where my mind went.

Also, while I don't think that he directly had anything to do with her murder, I do think she might have told him about the abuse.  Sometimes he does seem to protest a little too much that she never told him.  He also might have told one of his superiors, probably even in a honest attempt to help, but instead of helping it got back around to Maskell and then Cathy winds up dead.  If he feels guilty that he might have contributed to her death, that's maybe why he thinks he remembers this crazy story as a way to torture himself.

Yes I do think Cathy was telling Gerry she wasn't pregnant. She was affirming that she wasn't pregnant but that she still wanted him and thought of being his wife and having his kids. "I want you within me", was a DIRECT reference to their sex life. I thought the letter was kind of sweet in its old-fashioned subtleties. ?They were very much in love it looks like.

@Proclone you are very right that the abuse often isn't about sex but about power. 

[bilgistic]

I've been celibate for over three years (by circumstance and choice), but I'm not abusing and raping children. "Celibacy" is an excuse. Abuse and rape is about power, NEVER sex.

[TattleTeeny]

On 5/31/2017 at 2:11 PM, ChicksDigScars said:

Jesus Christ, the one line that I keep coming back to, was that bastard Maskell WATCHING while his friends took turns on these girls, and (I hope I have the right episode), when his friend "Brother Bob," whose identity is still a mystery, climaxed without pulling out, that Maskell told him, "She's a pup from a large litter. We can't have that." So, she was a dog to him. A dog from a large family of fertile Catholics, and we have to be careful not to get her pregnant. Fuck you, Father. Seriously, you fucking pig. 

And THAT'S IT. That's who Jean reminds me of. Glenn Close.

Seriously! While horrific beyond words, it's unfortunately not that surprising to find one or two bad apples in any bunch. But how in the holy hell was there this big handful of them--educated men (some probably even with children of their own) in positions of authority and trust--all in proximity to one another and all screwed up in exactly the same way it would take to do this? I never fail to marvel at situations like that (marvel as in cannot get my head around how it happens, not marvel as in skepticism). I am articulating this badly, I think. How do these kind of people seem to accidentally find each other? My brain hurts.

I feel like that one lawyer lady could be played by Kathy Bates. Even her voice sounded like Kathy's!

Edited June 24, 2017 by TattleTeeny

[Scarlett45]

5 hours ago, TattleTeeny said:

Seriously! While horrific beyond words, it's unfortunately not that surprising to find one or two bad apples in any bunch. But how in the holy hell was there this big handful of them--educated men (some probably even with children of their own) in positions of authority and trust--all in proximity to one another and all screwed up in exactly the same way it would take to do this? I never fail to marvel at situations like that (marvel as in cannot get my head around how it happens, not marvel as in skepticism). I am articulating this badly, I think. How do these kind of people seem to accidentally find each other? My brain hurts.

I feel like that one lawyer lady could be played by Kathy Bates. Even her voice sounded like Kathy's!

These disgusting beings (I'm not calling them men), run in circles together. They hang out, swap stories and techniques on how to collect victims. Education has little to do with it, except for the fact that many of these evil people are very smart, and because they crave power and authority put themselves in positions with access to that and are much more likely to move up the ranks because of their ambition. 

[TattleTeeny]

Yes, I get that, but it's broader than that, and the "circles" have to start somewhere. What I wonder is how they find each other in the first place--do they have some sort of radar? Does someone "break the ice" and come out and ask about such proclivities with zero fear of revealing a true self to the wrong people? Are some pushed into by others? And I don't mean just this story; I mean any story of crimes perpetrated by multiple people with the same sick mentality somehow finding each other in a world full of people who'd never do such things. I can think of tons of other crime stories, involving all kinds of people, where I have wondered this same thing.

[Clanstarling]

These days it's easy for them to find each other. I'm not so sure about how they did it back then. 

[TattleTeeny]

I guess those of us who find this kind of stuff completely unthinkable will never quite be able to get it (and good for us!). But yeah, I am under no delusions that any heinous act one can imagine, no matter how seemingly impossible it is, isn't already "a thing" with some sicko subset of society.

Edited June 25, 2017 by TattleTeeny

[Clanstarling]

The blessing and tragedy of our times is that we cannot remain ignorant that these appalling people exist in modern, "civilized", society. And that there are more than we'd ever imagined in our darkest thoughts.

[Milburn Stone]

I was confused by one thing at first. They have someone saying that Sister Cathy was teaching in a public school when she was killed, and I was like, What? That's not a public school, it's obviously a Catholic school!

All became clear later on, but I spent most of the episode being unnecessarily confused by that comment, which so easily could have either been deleted or explained better.

That said, I'm liking this.

[Milburn Stone]

Watched this episode last night. So upsetting.

On a lighter note, however (if a light note can be found anywhere), I'm loving the Baltimore accents. They're some of the most extreme I've heard. I'm from Baltimore, but not that neighborhood. (I grew up in Mt. Washington. Left as a young man in 1971.) Henry Higgins could have a field day identifying the distinct variations of the Baltimore accent in neighborhoods mere miles from each other. These are classic.

[Milburn Stone]

On 6/3/2017 at 0:27 AM, Soobs said:

The D.A. seemed to remember a lot more about her "little red convertible" than she did about some pictures that were maybe all wet or something. Or maybe they were just papers or magazine photos? But definitely not pictures that someone took because she would have remembered that. She seemed full of shit to me.

I had a different reaction. I was all set to hate her. But then I didn't. As D.A. her job was to bring cases she thought she could win. And that's as it should be. You don't want D.A.s ruining the lives of (possibly innocent) defendants bringing cases that can't be won. I bought that she didn't believe she had the goods to win a criminal prosecution against Maskell with no physical evidence after all these years. (And if the interview were filmed in the last week, she could point to the outcome of the Cosby case in support of that decision.)

At first I found it suspicious that she "couldn't remember" if there was any pornography in the dug-up boxes; her response reeked of bullshit. Then I realized that she thought the questioner was referring to general pornography (skin mags, who knows what else) unrelated to the case. When he clarified that he was referring to alleged photographs of the girls, she was quite clear that she never saw that. Again, I found her credible on this.

That said, I can't remember a show this infuriating and heartbreaking.

Edited June 29, 2017 by Milburn Stone

[Ina123]

As a general rule, I don't like or go to "scary" movies because they just don't scare me. Not only did this series scare me, it made the hair on my neck rise. I cried for and with Jean. It's all beyond imagination.

So many people find it hard to believe. I don't. I graduated in 1969.  It was a very different time. No one wanted to know about these things. It was all hush-hush and embarrassing. Even normal sex was private and kept under wraps. I would never doubt the girls keeping the secret He had total authority over the entire neighborhood.

Today, with TV and PSAs and the net, kids are made aware to tell and many still don't. Imagine the darkness over it back then. Everyone should be made to watch this series.

[Milburn Stone]

On 5/26/2017 at 2:22 PM, mahree said:

Here are a couple scholarly articles - mainly, the upshot seems to be that memories recovered outside of therapy (as Jean's seem to be) are more likely to be real than those "recovered" during therapy.

Do we know that Jean's were recovered outside of therapy? There have been a couple of moments when

Spoiler

she refers to a therapist. (Apologies if these moments are in Episode 4--it's not a big spoiler even if they are, she makes the mention very much in passing--but I think they were in Episode 3.) She says something to the effect of, "I like to sit quietly because the thoughts don't come to me when I'm with my therapist."

Let me immediately add that in my gut, I believe Jean, no matter what her process of memory recovery was. So this is not about that. I just want to know as much truth as I can regarding how her memories were recovered. The documentarians are certainly leading us to believe that they were recovered outside of therapy.

All that said, I have a high level of trust in these documentarians.

Edited June 29, 2017 by Milburn Stone