The Keepers - General Discussion

[lovinbob]

On 5/19/2017 at 9:02 PM, saoirse said:

I'm so glad that Jean's family was supportive about her reveals. I loved how her brothers all had her back, years after this happened - there was no question to them that it had happened. That's not always the case when molestation or sexual abuse is involved.

I completely agree. I was waiting for at least one of them to question it or express doubts, and was gratified that they didn't. I can only imagine how this impacted the family.

I have to say, I hate myself for this, there is this part of me that has creeping doubts—mostly because I don't really understand the nature of repressed memories, and because it the way in which she seemed to be gradually recovering the memories felt unscientific. I don't doubt the truth of what she said, especially because it ended up being corroborated by so many other students, but I can see how easy it would be to poke holes in her story. 

How Jean and Teresa were able to lead normal lives after all of this abuse is mind-boggling. Amazing that prayer and the Church continued to be such important parts of Jean's life! It defies belief!

Edited May 26, 2017 by lovinbob

[rubinia]

On 5/24/2017 at 5:54 AM, Captanne said:

I can only imagine they left it in there so we question, seriously, Koob's sanity and credibility.  It goes to the core of "repressed-horror-memory" testimony.  We believe most of the women's memories and then they go one step too far with likeable-ole-Koob.  I'm sure he's got the best of intentions but it's almost as if he feels he has to one-up them.

I was really disappointed when he busted out with that bizarro story. I'd liked Gerry a lot up to that point and the story of their not-meant-to-be relationship was sad. But he just said it so nonchalantly...just so, so weird.

[AlwaysWatching]

I suppose that religion's benign purpose is to have a sense of community. Shared values and possibly shared symbolic experiences appear to help people stay grounded and feel safe in a very unsafe world.  That part I get. Almost.  Unfortunately, religion, like absolute political power, always comes with this huge umbrella over the many dark things men and some women ( Ireland anyone?) can do to each other.  These awful things go on in every religion in some form.  Baptist preachers do the same thing. 

When I was a very young child, my parents took me to a friend's Baptist Church.  I felt like Damien from the Omen.  I couldn't get past the, oh so welcoming front door with all those smiling people.  EWWW.  Not sure what that says about me, but I've been a non-believer for a long time now.

My point, if I have one, is that I do understand someone who wants to hold on to the good things they feel are in their religion.  You could say the same about a Scientologist...and boy do I hate saying that.

I'm only up to a part of Episode 4.  When I was listening to all the things Jane Doe was saying in Episode 2?, I did have a slight, slight doubt for a few minutes, but not about her abuse.  I got the feeling that from what abuse she suffered and the way it all came back to her, that she might have inadvertently added more detail.  Then I realized how wrong I was.  These men had so much POWER over these girls that they had to feed their power monster more and more. 

This sickness has gone on forever - and is a human thing.  Most women, especially in Western Countries, don't realize how dangerous it is to be around certain men.  The problem is, who are the good guys and who are the ones that are acting on a twisted sense of biological urge?

This is a subject that hits too close to home for an incredulous amount of women.  Putting it in the setting of the Catholic Church, where men who crave this particular type of power and control gravitate toward, is just one small slice of the sexual abuse of children and young women and men, that make up one horrifying, human demoralizing pie.

[pamplemousse]

On 5/24/2017 at 8:37 PM, BellyLaughter said:

As the series progressed I became less convinced that Sister Cathy's murder was linked to the abuse she was intending to fight at the school.  Not ruling it out but there appeared to be elements of sexual mutilation to the crime which in my mind don't fit with a murder that's simply about shutting someone up....??  

Did I read too much into the sexual elements of her murder??  This seemed to be hinted at but not really focused on during the episodes??

Overall this was a gut wrenchingly sad thing to watch....my heart goes out to all the victims of that horrible man.....and the many other victims of the Catholic church....using people's faith to abuse them is absolutely abhorrent and then refusing to take action when the abuse surfaces is about as unGodly as a human could possible behave.  What a disgrace.

They were children.....

I'm afraid to ask but...there was sexual mutilation to Sister Cathy's body? When did they say that in the documentary? It is a distinct possibility that I missed it because after a while all the sexual abuse that was uncovered kind of all melted together into one monolith of horrifying fucked-upness that I was like oh my god what next? How much more depraved can Maskell and his ilk get? It's like a dark bottomless pit of monstrosity to the point where he and the other men involved seemed so incredibly evil as to not even be human (although it can be argued that humans are the greatest evil so maybe they seemed all too human at the basest level).

I do have to say that throughout the documentary, while I was riveted and horrified by the possibility that Sister Cathy was murdered to silence her, I also kept wondering what if yes, she was trying to fight the abuse going on at the school and Maskell and others did want to shut her up but what if actually all this time her murderer was just some random sicko? I did have the feeling throughout watching the doc that this is a crime that can be solved and eventually will be solved.

[kieyra]

Mo Ryan:

http://variety.com/2017/tv/reviews/keepers-netflix-documentary-sister-cathy-cesnik-baltimore-1202436845/

Sonia Saraiya:

http://variety.com/2017/tv/columns/the-keepers-netflix-best-true-crime-docuseries-1202443690/

[rubinia]

33 minutes ago, pamplemousse said:

I'm afraid to ask but...there was sexual mutilation to Sister Cathy's body? When did they say that in the documentary?

Wasn't it just Gerry and his weird "They handed me her vagina" story? I'm not sure if it was supposed to be inferred that the cops found it removed from the body or if THEY had it removed to show Gerry, or something...?

[mahree]

3 hours ago, lovinbob said:

I have to say, I hate myself for this, there is this part of me that has creeping doubts—mostly because I don't really understand the nature of repressed memories, and because it the way in which she seemed to be gradually recovering the memories felt unscientific. I don't doubt the truth of what she said, especially because it ended up being corroborated by so many other students, but I can see how easy it would be to poke holes in her story. 

Here are a couple scholarly articles - mainly, the upshot seems to be that memories recovered outside of therapy (as Jean's seem to be) are more likely to be real than those "recovered" during therapy.

http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1467-9280.2007.01940.x "Continuous CSA memories and discontinuous memories that were unexpectedly recalled outside therapy were more likely to be corroborated than anticipated discontinuous memories recovered in therapy. "  And"... individuals who recalled the memories outside therapy were markedly more surprised at the existence of their memories than were individuals who initially recalled the memories in therapy. These results indicate that discontinuous CSA memories spontaneously retrieved outside of therapy may be accurate, while implicating expectations arising from suggestions during therapy in producing false CSA memories." (emphasis added)

See also: http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1467-9280.2008.02247.x   "People who recovered memories of abuse through suggestive therapy exhibited a heightened susceptibility to the construction of false memories, but showed no tendency to underestimate their prior remembering. Conversely, people who recovered memories of abuse spontaneously showed a heightened proneness to forget prior incidences of remembering, but exhibited no increased susceptibility to false memories."

[iMonrey]

I agree it dragged. It feels like maybe this story merited about 2 hours on Dateline and it's been stretched into seven hours. 

[iMonrey]

So . . . mystery solved, right? I mean, I suppose there's still a cover-up to examine, but it seems fairly obvious who murdered Sister Cathy. The two priests who showed up at her apartment (one of them Father Maskell) and threatened her the day before she disappeared. I'm assuming Maskell is dead now. 

Yeah, the stories are horrifying and the case is fascinating but I still feel like it's dragging a bit.

[Clanstarling]

IIRC, one of them says something along the lines that it's not the story of the murder that's compelling, but the cover up. I'll add that the "why" of it is just as important as starting out being pretty sure of the "who dunnit" part of the story. They've just sketched the outline of the body this first episode. Filling it in is what's going to be interesting to me.

[pamplemousse]

2 hours ago, rubinia said:

Wasn't it just Gerry and his weird "They handed me her vagina" story? I'm not sure if it was supposed to be inferred that the cops found it removed from the body or if THEY had it removed to show Gerry, or something...?

Oh, I took that as it was possibly removed by the coroner for examination and the cops brought it in and showed it to him as a shock tactic? IDK that whole bit was very odd and at first I thought he said vagina when he meant uterus because he compared it to looking like a heart wrapped up in paper, but I really don't know because it was so weird. I'm not discounting his story because cops back then probably used all kinds of tactics that were messed up, the whole thing is just very strange.

[kathe5133]

On 5/24/2017 at 2:42 PM, kieyra said:

I don't facebook but I had a feeling this would happen:

Overwhelmed with new members, Facebook group in 'The Keepers' shuts down

http://www.baltimoresun.com/entertainment/tv/z-on-tv-blog/bs-fe-keepers-facebook-20170524-story.html

And they started another FB group just to discuss The Keepers.  I picked up some updates there, but also saw a whole lot of crazy!  They are encouraging banding together to find the "true identity" of some of those that were anonymous on the show.  There is a thread for "favorite moments".  Yeah, based on a true story, lives were ruined, and "let's list our favorite moments!  Every wackjob with a Facebook account thinks the can solve the murder, cause they have "Google"! To bad the haven't thought to Google the meaning of "anonymous".  It's only a matter of time before that page is shut down...

[BellyLaughter]

5 hours ago, pamplemousse said:

I'm afraid to ask but...there was sexual mutilation to Sister Cathy's body? When did they say that in the documentary? It is a distinct possibility that I missed it because after a while all the sexual abuse that was uncovered kind of all melted together into one monolith of horrifying fucked-upness that I was like oh my god what next? How much more depraved can Maskell and his ilk get? It's like a dark bottomless pit of monstrosity to the point where he and the other men involved seemed so incredibly evil as to not even be human (although it can be argued that humans are the greatest evil so maybe they seemed all too human at the basest level).

I do have to say that throughout the documentary, while I was riveted and horrified by the possibility that Sister Cathy was murdered to silence her, I also kept wondering what if yes, she was trying to fight the abuse going on at the school and Maskell and others did want to shut her up but what if actually all this time her murderer was just some random sicko? I did have the feeling throughout watching the doc that this is a crime that can be solved and eventually will be solved.

I was confused about the nature of her murder not only because of Jerry's bizarre story but it was mentioned twice that at the scene her skirt was pulled up and her top pulled down.... 

It seems to be hinted at but perhaps as you suggested with the horrifying stories of sexual abuse maybe it all started to melt into one for me and that's where my confusion lies??

As for Jerry's story about the "vagina"...that was the part that made me do a complete 180 on him and his relationship with Sister Cathy.  I am left wondering if it was more one sided than he portrays....

[sas616]

I didn't think it dragged at all.  Perhaps because I live in Baltimore and these places are very familiar to me.  Really creeps me out actually knowing this happened in my home time.   And having been in the Catholic school systems around that time, it is very upsetting.

[lovinbob]

Thank you for that info, mahree! 

[bilgistic]

Did I understand correctly that Barbara was first married to Billy Schmidt, then his brother (or brother-in-law?)? Billy later came out as gay and had the menacing friend/lover Skippy. ("Skippy" is not a very menacing name.)

[lovinbob]

The way Jean and Teresa were treated, and the comments made about them, was exactly what I feared when watching the previous episodes. Absolutely excruciating.

I give these women so much credit for what they have done with their lives.

[Clanstarling]

On 5/19/2017 at 6:02 PM, saoirse said:

I'm so glad that Jean's family was supportive about her reveals. I loved how her brothers all had her back, years after this happened - there was no question to them that it had happened. That's not always the case when molestation or sexual abuse is involved.

I was glad too, especially since they seemed a pretty devout family. They didn't mention the parents, did they? (in 1992, I mean). I wonder if they were still alive at that time. Also, her husband is/was the best.

21 hours ago, lovinbob said:

How Jean and Teresa were able to lead normal lives after all of this abuse is mind-boggling. Amazing that prayer and the Church continued to be such important parts of Jean's life! It defies belief!

There was something Jean said that made me think it was a normal life mostly on the surface. She said something like that in their early marriage she would tell her husband he should find someone else who could give him the love (not sure of the wording she used) he needed and he refused. To me that hinted that the abuse damaged her ability to lead a normal life in the bedroom, at least.

I made a fairly savage comment to my husband that Maskill should have been skinned alive (blood thirsty at heart, not deed), and my wonderful husband, the kindest, gentlest man I've ever known, agreed. That shocked me almost as much as this documentary.

[Pogojoco]

Re. the stuff in the newspaper- absolutely no way to say it was actually Sister Cathy's or even a human vagina or even that it happened at all. It's definitely weird. When police officers are trying to pin something on someone, especially when they are told that they have to get this solved and also, they can't investigate certain people or groups of people due to their connections, stuff gets crazy. 

Re. it being one sided for Gerry and Cathy- those letters she wrote to him were very intense. 

[jeansheridan]

I usually hate true crime but some coworkers were raving about it. I'm not sure I want to go on and I'm happy it's only 7 episodes. I do love the two ladies and I sort of want to see Kathy Bates, and Sally Field (not my favorite but right age) in a film version. I don't really like dragged out documentaries and recreations. I don't mind old photos but showing recreations of the mass in the apartment seems false to me. It's done sparingly, but I still hate it.

[jeansheridan]

"one of those that you don't want to say you 'enjoy' it, but rather, you're fascinated by? Thanks for covering it, I think I'll greatly appreciate having others on the journey with me, as painful as it will be."

Good point. And in some ways I already feel like Abbie and Gemma have earned my attention. The film-makers were right to focus on them and not on the journalist with his creepy attic. Their interest feels sincere and deeply personal. I had one h.s. teacher like that and I can see never quite letting it go. Plus, you know, female power. Crones get it done. And I use "crone" with admiration. Crones have moved beyond the petty day to day crap and focus on what's important.

[Megan]

On 5/22/2017 at 6:14 PM, kieyra said:

I find the scenes with Edgar frustrating to watch. Since he's obviously non compos mentis, I don't understand the point. I'm also surprised they included those scenes after the outrage about the way the kid in Making a Murderer was interrogated. It often seemed like Edgar was just agreeing with whatever the dude said and not paying attention. If someone has a different read on this, I'd be interested.

 

When Edgar first was interviewed it seemed obvious to me that he was not mentally competent. I don't think the film makers should have included him unless the whole point was to show that he wasn't some one that would be able to give reliable information.

[bilgistic]

On 5/26/2017 at 2:34 PM, pamplemousse said:

I'm afraid to ask but...there was sexual mutilation to Sister Cathy's body? When did they say that in the documentary?

I don't remember it being said in the show, but the article linked below says she had been sexually abused.

http://decider.com/2017/05/18/netflix-the-keepers-joseph-maskell-dna-does-not-match/

[jeansheridan]

I don't have anything really useful to add.  The episode analysis was good. I still really hate the recreations.  Just hearing their words is enough for me.  The recreations and dramatic music takes away from the plain telling of their testimony.   Isn't it enough that they can look at the camera and speak?  

[jeansheridan]

It's the cover up that kills me more.  Father Roy (?) who may be a good man in many ways just fails here.  Also how could some of those other teachers not know?  30 to 50 girls.  Those adults were cowards, willfully looking away.  

I like how low tech Jean's family was with the postcards but imagine receiving that in the mail.  Anonymous and hand written.  Unsettling at best.  

I also think the youngest brother was struggling with it all.  First their uncle, then a priest, then murder.  It is A LOT.

It makes me sad too that she never confided in her siblings at the time.  Obviously they are good people.  

[iMonrey]

As horrific as it is to go through what Jean went through, I completely understand why authorities (whether police or the diocese) were telling her they needed corroboration from other witnesses. I mean, I totally believe her and they probably did too, but the cold fact of the matter is you can't just get someone fired or arrested on your say-so. Otherwise, anybody in the world could just go to the cops, or the church hierarchy, or their boss, make an accusation against someone and get them suspended or fired by making up a story about them because they had some kind of beef against them. 

Obviously I'm not saying that's what Jean was doing, but if you think of the ramifications of it, there's a reason why hard evidence is needed to take action against someone. 

[runjuliet]

Did I understand correctly that Barbara was first married to Billy Schmidt, then his brother (or brother-in-law?)? Billy later came out as gay and had the menacing friend/lover Skippy. ("Skippy" is not a very menacing name.)

I believe she said that she and Billy were just good friends, never married. She said she knew both brothers since they were all kids.

[iMonrey]

What I want to know is what happened to the evidence they dug up in the graveyard. Someone needs to put to rest what's really in there. You have "deep throat" saying one thing, and the D.A. saying another. As the reporter said, one of them is lying. On the surface, I found the D.A. more credible than deep throat. She might be totally on the take and in on the whole thing for all I know but she went on camera and laid out the facts as she knew them, or so she said anyway. We don't know who "deep throat" is or what his angle is or how he knows this stuff, etc. 

[runjuliet]

I just can't get over how the letter from Cathy to Koob was typewritten. Wouldn't something that intimate be handwritten? Did anyone bother to examine the letter? Was it signed? These are things I wanted to see rather than Gemma fiddling with her stove.

And after that doozy of an interrogation story, I don't put it past Koob to have written out what he had desired their relationship to be. Does that he mean he killed her? Not necessarily. Maybe he's still just obsessed enough with her to to insert himself as much as possible into her story.

And yeah, May is completely full of shit. It's one thing to not have the evidence to prosecute. It's another to not even pursue the evidence at all.

[bilgistic]

Relatively minor detail in all of this, but I feel bad for Koob's wife who has lived in the looming shadow of Koob's obvious undying love for Cathy. I'm not belittling Cathy's turmoil and horrific end AT ALL, nor Koob's grief. His wife is VERY compassionate and understanding. I was so struck by that.

[buckboard]

I would think someone in the Baltimore gay community in the '60s and '70s might remember a name like Skippy or an odd ball like Billy Schmidt.
Skippy is a strange name to call an adult and I'd think it would stand out in people's minds.

[OtterMommy]

11 minutes ago, buckboard said:

I would think someone in the Baltimore gay community in the '60s and '70s might remember a name like Skippy or an odd ball like Billy Schmidt.
Skippy is a strange name to call an adult and I'd think it would stand out in people's minds.

Unless Skippy was name only used by some.  As you said, Skippy is a strange name for an adult (the only Skippy I ever knew was a dog, but whatever) and I highly doubt that anyone would name their child that.  But, if they were part of a community that was not socially accepted, such as the gay community in a very Catholic city in the middle of the 20th century, I could see whoever this is adopting a name only used socially in that circle.  And it is possible that Skippy is also Brother Bobby?

That being said, I think it is a possibility that there are others out there who have information about this case that they haven't shared.  Whether this show will make a difference is yet to be seen.

[Eliz]

Boy, I do not understand the point of this episode. If the main premise of the documentary is to make the case that Sister Cathy's murder was part of a cover-up for the sex crimes at Keough, then everything they have to say about these two other random guys undercuts that. 

And one of these stories  -- I think my uncle killed her and carried her out in a rug -- doesn't match up AT ALL with any of the facts of her murder. Of all the things that are unknown about the night she died, there's no suggestion by anyone ever that she was murdered in her apartment.

My own opinion is that the show does not do a very good job connecting the sex crimes to the nun's murder. But just as a matter of internal consistency, I don't get at all why it goes on this episode-long diversion into these two other stories. The main impression it made on me was, wow, maybe amateur sleuths -- however appealing they are -- shouldn't be investigating this if they are not capable of sorting through and discarding these wild goose chases.

[bilgistic]

12 minutes ago, OtterMommy said:

Unless Skippy was name only used by some.  As you said, Skippy is a strange name for an adult (the only Skippy I ever knew was a dog, but whatever) and I highly doubt that anyone would name their child that.

The only Skippy I know is peanut butter.

[mmecorday]

I had to stop after this episode tonight. I'll finish the rest tomorrow. It's just so much to process. Plus, my heart broke for Gemma when she was speaking with Cathy's sister and she sounded so much like her beloved teacher. It must have been like talking to her after 48 years.

Cathy's murder doesn't seem like just one of those random homicides. I don't recall the autopsy revealing any evidence of sexual assault and it seems strange that she would be targeted for robbery. Nothing about a Ford Maverick denotes that the driver has deep pockets. I think it was marketed as a car that just about anyone could afford.

I hope Sister Cathy knows what an impact she had on the lives of her students. This is a brutal series to watch, but I think Cathy's true goodness and the love her students had for her is what gives "The Keepers" a lot of heart that's missing from a lot of true crime shows

[bilgistic]

I continue to think about this series. I wonder about the title, and what it means to the creator. Is it for the secret keepers--the young women (and young men) abused under the church's watch? Is is for Abbie and Gemma, who are keeping Cathy's name and the horrors that happened on people's minds, and who are keeping records of everything, so no one forgets? Is it for the grown women and men now, the abuse survivors, who are keeping watch over the church--saying, "I see you for all you are"--and trying to keep it accountable?

[sashabear21]

Quote

On 5/23/2017 at 2:07 AM, film noire said:

Turns out, always a thousand children more;  it never fucking ends. There's always another story.  And I am at the point - raised Catholic (fairly liberal, seventies style) -- where I consider myself lucky,  because all I had to endure was a priest copping a feel and sticking his holy tongue down my thirteen year old throat on Christmas Eve at my parent's house  (WHICH, YOU KNOW, NOT A SLIDING SCALE ANYONE SHOULD BE USING) but I consider that a victory, because there's a children's march of middle aged women (and men) that moves relentlessly forward -- always another story, always another priest, always another lawyer for the church, always another sick tale that would make Jesus pick up an AK 47 -- always. We need a shorthand for this: the fish symbol, with a knife in its heart.

Christ on a cracker that is still super fucked up! There is no excuse for someone grossly abusing their power on a child in any way, shape, or form, and I'd really like to punch that priest.   My parents weren't particularly religious, and they didn't make me go to church after the age of 8 (I hated church, I never wanted to be there, nothing weird ever happened, we just got an interim pastor around that time that used religion as a weapon, and I was not comfortable with super religious people), so I don't really understand the allegiance that people had to a church or religion, but I grew up a little differently with parents that were not allied to a religion. I can't imagine growing up like these girls where the church was such a huge part of their lives and the trust placed in the ones in power was absolute. 

[iMonrey]

I wonder if maybe Edgar Davidson killed Joyce Malecki and there's no real connection between that murder and Sister Cathy's. The necklace might be nothing more than a red herring (I tend to agree with the recap that the green stone being Marilyn Cesnik's fiancé's birthstone was a stretch). I find Billy Schmidt the most plausible suspect, especially since his nephew had such a definite memory of having been there when they dumped her body. I'm frustrated they were unable to make a connection between Fr. Maskell and the Schmidt family, though. And that the eldest Schmidt son was named Bobby but they never drew a connection between that name and "Father Bob."

Sadly I don't think this case will ever be solved. And much like "Making A Murderer," it basically just made me want to reach into the TV and punch a lot of people. 

[Proclone]

On 5/22/2017 at 10:38 PM, kieyra said:

Ok. Like I said, I'm interested in hearing different takes for sure. He looked like a stroke victim--but I don't actually know what a stroke victim looks like. Whatever was going on with his eyes. (I also know that having a stroke isn't the same as dementia, which it also seemed like he had.) But I have very little experience with the elderly. 

I did have the vaguest sense that when he said "I had nothing to do with it", that he was reciting from a script in his head, almost by reflex. But he didn't seem that unconvincing to me. Some questions were just problematic, especially when they'd ask convoluted questions about whether he had tried to make people think he was involved when he really wasn't--I was left wondering whether he'd really paid attention all the way to the end of the question, or just said "yeah" when he thought a response was expected.

I'm a nurse, and to be honest Edgar might have had a stroke and/or dementia, but what he looked most like to me was someone schizophrenia and/or bipolar disorder.  He has a flat affect (facial expression), and he's reluctant to make eye contact.  That's just my take.  I used to deal with a lot of patients with mental illness in general (my hospital was one of only a couple with a psych ward and when those patient's got medically ill they sent them to my floor) and a number of elderly patients with mental illness, and even when they just showed him walking from afar, that was the first thought that popped into my mind when they showed Edgar.  I might be wrong, I am in no way able to diagnose any illness, especially not through the TV, but that's just the impression I got.

On 5/24/2017 at 11:41 AM, IndianPaintbrush said:

Richard Sipe is a psychotherapist who has done extensive research on priests and sexuality.  The Boston Globe's Spotlight team used him in their reporting.  According to Sipe, the culture of celibacy and repressed sexuality is the main problem:

I can see how this would be a huge problem for priests who were ordained before the 1960s. They were more likely to go straight from high school to seminary with no sexual experience. Add in a culture where pedophilia isn't talked about and the long-term effects on children aren't understood, and you have a recipe for disaster.

I also don't think we can forget that many of those abusive Priests, were also victims of abuse themselves.  Priests were almost always alter boys when they were kids.  It was one hell of a sick cycle.  Priest abuses alter boy, alter boy never tells, he gets older and goes to seminary, becomes a priest, and then abuses one of his alter boys.  It's an unfortunate fact that often those abused go on to become abusers.  One of the former Priests in Spotlight tells them that he never "hurt" the boys because he was abused himself.

I'm sure Sipe is right, that celibacy does play a part, but I think anytime you have a organization that tells you that certain members are the gateway to God and salvation and you don't have the right to question them (which is exactly what kids were taught about Priests when my mom was growing up and she'd be a contemporary with the Keough girls), you are just going to attract a certain amount of people who get off on wielding power over others.  Then you put them in charge over vulnerable populations (kids) and you making a recipe for abuse, whether or not celibacy is in the mix.  Just my opinion.  Because abuse isn't always about sex, a lot of times it's about power.

On 5/26/2017 at 5:52 PM, pamplemousse said:

Oh, I took that as it was possibly removed by the coroner for examination and the cops brought it in and showed it to him as a shock tactic? IDK that whole bit was very odd and at first I thought he said vagina when he meant uterus because he compared it to looking like a heart wrapped up in paper, but I really don't know because it was so weird. I'm not discounting his story because cops back then probably used all kinds of tactics that were messed up, the whole thing is just very strange.

That whole story was really weird, and he told as if it wasn't bizarre.  I wonder if his memory has taken something that really happened and conflated it into this weird bizarre story over the years.  I wonder if the police did show him autopsy photos or maybe even threw a wrapped up piece of meat on the desk and said something like, "This is what the coroner is doing to your girlfriend right now, cutting her up."  I can't imagine cops even during that time period taking a real body part and showing it to a suspect.

Also did anyone else think that Cathy was telling Gerry in the letter they read, in a round about way that she wasn't pregnant.  She starts the letter by telling him (paraphrased) that she's moody because her period just came...ten days late.  I don't know about anyone else, but I don't usually include the state of my menstrual cycle in romantic letters.  Perhaps she had spoken to him before and told him she was late, and this was a way to let him know she wasn't pregnant.  This might be part of reason Gerry conflated the story about uterus/vagina wrapped in newspaper.  He was already preoccupied thinking about Cathy's reproductive organs, then she's murdered, and the police show him...something and his brain makes it the organ that might have given birth to his kids.  I know that's a lot of supposition, but it's just where my mind went.

Also, while I don't think that he directly had anything to do with her murder, I do think she might have told him about the abuse.  Sometimes he does seem to protest a little too much that she never told him.  He also might have told one of his superiors, probably even in a honest attempt to help, but instead of helping it got back around to Maskell and then Cathy winds up dead.  If he feels guilty that he might have contributed to her death, that's maybe why he thinks he remembers this crazy story as a way to torture himself.

[BostonBlonde]

It's disgusting. I attended Catholic school in a Boston suburb from K-12 thru the 80s. There was a boy who just one day never returned to our class. Many years later, I found out he had been continually molested by a priest. This kid literally vanished from class. His mother called the Archdiocese begging for help as he was emotionally disturbed. They did nothing. No one said anything. 

 

This stuff was was going on everywhere. It was not isolated incidents like they claim. Huge, disgusting coverup. Just evil. Evil & nauseating. 

 

It enrages me. Truly. I left the Catholic faith & would not allow my own children to possibly endure any of that evil shit. 

 

His case is online including the letters his mother wrote. It's outrageous. 

[lucindabelle]

I thought we learned about the love letter in the past episode. I'm so confused by her love letter. Didn't he say she had turned him down?

[OtterMommy]

6 hours ago, iMonrey said:

I wonder if maybe Edgar Davidson killed Joyce Malecki and there's no real connection between that murder and Sister Cathy's.

I will say that I found the evidence put forth in the show that the murders of Sister Cathy and Joyce Malecki were related to be tenuous at best.  As far as I could tell, that theory is based on only 2 things: that the two women disappeared within days of each other and that Joyce's family received a condolence card from Father Maskell.

Baltimore is a good sized city and I think that 2 women disappearing within days of each other, while worth a look, is not damning evidence.  Also, didn't the Maleckis live close to Keogh?  If so, it seems completely reasonable that Father Maskell would have had at least a passing acquaintance with the family and a religious leader sending a condolence card to someone they every vaguely know is hardly unheard of.

I'm not saying I do NOT think that the two cases are related--only that I don't see conclusive evidence that they are.

[rabidchipmnk]

22 hours ago, Eliz said:

And one of these stories  -- I think my uncle killed her and carried her out in a rug -- doesn't match up AT ALL with any of the facts of her murder. Of all the things that are unknown about the night she died, there's no suggestion by anyone ever that she was murdered in her apartment.

Right?  Wasn't her roommate at home that whole time, if I'm remembering correctly?  The degree to which this whole thing relies on the notoriously fallible human memory is really frustrating (although that's not to say that I disbelieve the victims).

On 5/23/2017 at 7:12 AM, teddysmom said:

And if they used her car to transport her to wherever they did kill her, and went to all the trouble to bring it back, why not go ahead and park it legally.

The theory I got out of that was that it was to send a message/make sure the car was found and obvious that something had happened (as opposed to her just wandering off, I guess?)

[rabidchipmnk]

On 5/23/2017 at 5:28 PM, CherryMalotte said:

That letter...I wonder about that.  I don't think Cathy would have written to her sister about any of the abuse, she was happy about her sister's engagement and wouldn't have dimmed it with her own concerns.  But I do wonder if there was something in there about her leaving the motherhouse, and her vows.  If some wrong sided officer read that and passed the information on there would be a reason to 'lose' it.  Or is it there in a folder somewhere and it's just been overlooked?  Something is up with that.  

Re: the letter: just because it was postmarked the day (right?) after she disappeared, couldn't that mean she dropped it in the mailbox while she was running errands, but it wasn't actually picked up until rounds on the next day, thus the postmark?  I didn't see how that would definitely be evidence then.  But also ugh, gloves! Open it!

5 hours ago, lucindabelle said:

I thought we learned about the love letter in the past episode. I'm so confused by her love letter. Didn't he say she had turned him down?

I thought that's what he said too, re: their conversation 3 days earlier... but also it looked like they actually had the letter there?  With late periods and "I want to have your babies" and everything... Maybe he was conflating different conversations? 

The vagina thing was fucking weird though.  How would you even remove a vagina in one piece??

From the recap:

Quote

The now-ancient McKeon confirms to Cathy's sister by phone Koob's version, but apparently he said at the time that he drove up from Beltsville, not from Annapolis with Koob. This is probably nothing, just a slip of the tongue by McKeon, but if it is something, what is it? 

I froze it on the newspaper clipping-- it seemed to me that it was plausibly a case of "he told the reporter they drove up to the nuns' apartment, the reporter put down where he lived, sentence structure or reporter assumptions left the clauses ambiguous" rather than he actually did say Beltsville and not Annapolis.

ETA: e.g. this one: http://www.baltimoresun.com/features/retro-baltimore/catherine-cesnik/bal-timeline-the-sister-catherine-cesnik-case-20170518-story.html cites them as both driving up from Beltsville.  So that inconsistency is far from a smoking gun, IMO. (and overall this is a pretty crappy summary)

Edited May 30, 2017 by rabidchipmnk

[rabidchipmnk]

First: FUCK the FUCKING catholic church, GODDAMN.  I don't have enough caps for this rage.

On 5/21/2017 at 4:45 PM, kieyra said:

...and I'm annoyed that we all know this case will never be considered as desperately important as the case of what's his name from Making a Murderer, or Adnan. The outrage won't be there. You know, it's just raped and murdered women. 

But all of these cases dealt with murdered women...?

On 5/22/2017 at 6:14 PM, kieyra said:

I find the scenes with Edgar frustrating to watch. Since he's obviously non compos mentis, I don't understand the point. I'm also surprised they included those scenes after the outrage about the way the kid in Making a Murderer was interrogated. It often seemed like Edgar was just agreeing with whatever the dude said and not paying attention. If someone has a different read on this, I'd be interested.

I definitely read at least part of his responses like that.  He seems not totally there anymore, and I'm not sure what they were hoping to convey with a line of questioning which was basically "So we think the murderer drove with two feet. Did you drive using two feet?"

On 5/22/2017 at 6:54 PM, Lord Donia said:

So true and despairingly sad. Makes me wonder how different Jean's life might have been if her mind hadn't stepped in to repress the horror and safeguard her.

She was one of the lucky ones, though.  I was really happy that we got to see how her husband was all "no, you're not an evil slutty person, this was abuse that you didn't choose to have happen to you and of course I love you anyway."  Awww.  (which just made it more obvious that he had died since he was in none of the talking heads)

9 hours ago, iMonrey said:

I wonder if maybe Edgar Davidson killed Joyce Malecki and there's no real connection between that murder and Sister Cathy's. The necklace might be nothing more than a red herring (I tend to agree with the recap that the green stone being Marilyn Cesnik's fiancé's birthstone was a stretch). I find Billy Schmidt the most plausible suspect, especially since his nephew had such a definite memory of having been there when they dumped her body. I'm frustrated they were unable to make a connection between Fr. Maskell and the Schmidt family, though. And that the eldest Schmidt son was named Bobby but they never drew a connection between that name and "Father Bob."

Sadly I don't think this case will ever be solved. And much like "Making A Murderer," it basically just made me want to reach into the TV and punch a lot of people. 

That's the part I can't figure out... if Billy was gay (and never catholic, so probably not a gay conversion "therapy" sort of thing), then why would he have been involved with Maskell?  Unless it was through his friend Skippy?  When did they start hating on the church and storing creepy attic mannequins, was it since always or after a triggering event?  If the former I can't see how he would have had anything to do with the murder.  I have a hard time believing the nephew's memory, since that seems completely contradictory to the other evidence.  Too many holes here...

2 hours ago, OtterMommy said:

I will say that I found the evidence put forth in the show that the murders of Sister Cathy and Joyce Malecki were related to be tenuous at best.  As far as I could tell, that theory is based on only 2 things: that the two women disappeared within days of each other and that Joyce's family received a condolence card from Father Maskell.

Baltimore is a good sized city and I think that 2 women disappearing within days of each other, while worth a look, is not damning evidence.  Also, didn't the Maleckis live close to Keogh?  If so, it seems completely reasonable that Father Maskell would have had at least a passing acquaintance with the family and a religious leader sending a condolence card to someone they every vaguely know is hardly unheard of.

I'm not saying I do NOT think that the two cases are related--only that I don't see conclusive evidence that they are.

Also there was the thing that their cars were both obviously dumped in the same prominent fashion.  I think they were both last seen at malls, too.  If I was a conspiracy theorist*, I'd say they killed Cathy to shut her up, then killed Joyce to just make sure it looked like a random serial killer or something and she ended up as the collateral damage.  

*(present OBVIOUS conspiratorial coverups of child sex abuse notwithstanding, obvs.  Ugh, fuck the church.)

[jeansheridan]

On Sunday, May 28, 2017 at 7:57 PM, Eliz said:

The main impression it made on me was, wow, maybe amateur sleuths -- however appealing they are -- shouldn't be investigating this if they are not capable of sorting through and discarding these wild goose chases.

Not a bad point but who else would be willing to do it?  Plus I like that Abby fact checks details almost obsessively. I think we were shown two of their more credible leads.  

I still find the re-creations very cheap.  They detract from a serious story, adding unnecessary melodrama.  Also I resent each episode ending with a dramatic hook.  A cold case murder would be one thing but the abuse victims are going through something painful right now and I resent the producers for using such cheap tricks when these women are so brutally sincere.  

Also the reporter is creepy with his room of swords.  And shorts.  Could he not put on pants?  

[Nire]

I found the episode interesting but didn't think there was much of a case for Billy.  I found Edgar more convincing since we know he came home that night covered in blood and the necklace.  Why didn't they just try to find out her sister's birthstone?  That seems easy enough to me.  His interest in adolescent girls also made him a lot more convincing.

Billy and his brother just didn't make sense.  Maybe he saw something and was threatened causing his obcession and mental health issues.  But it just seemed unlikely that he would have known the priest or been a likely person to be asked to carry out a murder.  Plus his nephew's story didn t match other details.  I also felt like his brother's ex wife didn't seem to make a fuss that her husband was covered in blood on the right night.  She never said "I know it was that night because" or anything.  Plus her son didn't mention hi s father being involved.  

[Captanne]

I think Billy and Skippy were targets of opportunity.  Two low-lifes across the hall when someone is murdered in anger and a body needs to be moved. The car was left in a panic because I don't think Billy was the brightest bulb (or, possibly, sober.)

[mahree]

On 5/28/2017 at 0:03 PM, iMonrey said:

As horrific as it is to go through what Jean went through, I completely understand why authorities (whether police or the diocese) were telling her they needed corroboration from other witnesses. I mean, I totally believe her and they probably did too, but the cold fact of the matter is you can't just get someone fired or arrested on your say-so. Otherwise, anybody in the world could just go to the cops, or the church hierarchy, or their boss, make an accusation against someone and get them suspended or fired by making up a story about them because they had some kind of beef against them. 

I don't know if you've watched the whole thing, but 

Spoiler

the Church HAD corroboration - that kid whose mom went to the diocese and demanded action after he reported Maskell's abuse to her.  What did they do?  Move him to Keough, where he was free to molest all those girls, including Jean.

Edited May 30, 2017 by mahree

[rabidchipmnk]

57 minutes ago, mahree said:

I don't know if you've watched the whole thing, but 

  Hide contents

the Church HAD corroboration - that kid whose mom went to the diocese and demanded action after he reported Maskell's abuse to her.  What did they do?  Move him to Keough, where he was free to molest all those girls, including Jean.

Yes. This. Those fuckers.

On May 28, 2017 at 9:03 AM, iMonrey said:

As horrific as it is to go through what Jean went through, I completely understand why authorities (whether police or the diocese) were telling her they needed corroboration from other witnesses. I mean, I totally believe her and they probably did too, but the cold fact of the matter is you can't just get someone fired or arrested on your say-so. Otherwise, anybody in the world could just go to the cops, or the church hierarchy, or their boss, make an accusation against someone and get them suspended or fired by making up a story about them because they had some kind of beef against them. 

Obviously I'm not saying that's what Jean was doing, but if you think of the ramifications of it, there's a reason why hard evidence is needed to take action against someone. 

The problem with this is, even independent of the revelation above, is that it puts the onus on the VICTIM to get things done. Nuh uh. You have diocese resources, YOU find the corroboration, if you actually care about doing the right thing and helping the victim(s). But we all know that has NEVER been their priority. Ugh, I'm getting angry all over again now.