S05.E12: The World Council of Churches

[magemaud]

On 5/24/2017 at 3:39 PM, Fouts said:

Anyone else catch the overall theme of people considering suicide on this episode?  Not just Pasha, but the hint to viewers that Oleg might jump off the bridge, and Paige might hang herself in the garage?  Of course this didn't happen, but that was my initial reaction, just as others have said.  

Yes, I caught it, too. First I said to my husband, "Paige isn't going to hang herself, is she?" followed by, "No, Oleg, don't jump off the bridge!" followed by Tuan's description of how he taught Pasha how to cut his wrists without actually committing suicide. I can see three outcomes from Pasha's actions, 1) P, E and T reach him in time to save him, 2) Pasha botches the cutting tutorial and accidentally dies or 3) he DELIBERATELY cuts the arteries that Tuan showed him how to avoid. 

[MaryPatShelby]

52 minutes ago, JFParnell said:

Love to see that Sports Night isn't forgotten out there :)

Sports Night will never be forgotten as long as I, and you, are here to remember it!

[Sarah 103]

2 hours ago, PamelaMaeSnap said:

Hubby's prediction is that Oleg defects. At least that would make me happy by keeping him alive. LOVE him. 

Maybe, but I'm not sure. Oleg is is like Philip, in that he's motivated by family and the desire to help his people. He isn't into the ideology like Elizabeth. If Oleg defected, that would ruin his family, and I'm not sure he's willing to do that. On the other hand, I like the idea of Oleg defecting because it's set up my spin-off were Stan leaves the FBI. Stan and Oleg to fight crime together because after all the dark, gritty, doom and gloom, what we really need is a 1980s style action-adventure series. 

1 hour ago, JFParnell said:

Love to see that Sports Night isn't forgotten out there :)

I love Sports Night (and all of Sorkin's show, even Studio 60) What Sports Night reference did I miss? 

[millennium]

3 hours ago, PamelaMaeSnap said:

Hubby's prediction is that Oleg defects. At least that would make me happy by keeping him alive. LOVE him. 

I like the way Oleg listens to people and considers what they say before he replies.

[millennium]

3 hours ago, MaryPatShelby said:

I would like to see more operations, too.  Not that I want to see people killed, necessarily (last week was tough), but I'd like to see more than moving the pieces around.  Remember the first episode, with "Tusk"?  Sigh.

If I were the actor who plays Stan, I'd be really chafed that my storyline had been replaced by a teenager's.   Maybe after the show ends on FX, it can get picked up by the CW.

[VCRTracking]

Noah Emmerich, and he's actually directed a few episodes, like this season's "Lotus 1-2-3". I don't feel Stan's storyline hasn't been replaced. He has plenty of stuff going on.

Children on these type of shows are always going to be the tough part to sit through. We want to see the main characters do grownup stuff, not have to deal with teenagers and their insignificant issues. They're mostly there to be an ongoing problem. Like the significant other of a superhero who doesn't know their partner's secret identity.

[magemaud]

Every time now they show a scene in the Moscow grocery store, I'm anxiously trying to spot Martha among the babushka clad shoppers! Maybe because I'm still shipping her and Oleg

[JFParnell]

1 hour ago, Sarah 103 said:

I love Sports Night (and all of Sorkin's show, even Studio 60) What Sports Night reference did I miss? 

Oh, nothing from The Americans directly. Member MaryPatShelby's screen name and picture reference the show. I noticed and could not resist a comment. Still watch those on DVD - so funny. Unjustly cut short, that one.

Sorry for the interruption, The Americans'ers!  We now return you to your topic. Carry on with your merrymaking :)

[RedHawk]

1 hour ago, VCRTracking said:

Noah Emmerich, and he's actually directed a few episodes, like this season's "Lotus 1-2-3". I don't feel Stan's storyline hasn't been replaced. He has plenty of stuff going on.

Children on these type of shows are always going to be the tough part to sit through. We want to see the main characters do grownup stuff, not have to deal with teenagers and their insignificant issues. They're mostly there to be an ongoing problem. Like the significant other of a superhero who doesn't know their partner's secret identity.

But I actually like Henry and want to see more of him. Good writing could make his story line intriguing, the actor seems up to it, and I wish it had started last season.

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, RedHawk said:

But I actually like Henry and want to see more of him. Good writing could make his story line intriguing, the actor seems up to it, and I wish it had started last season.

LOL! Now I'm picturing a scene where P&E tell Henry the truth. He stares at them. His eyebrows point up and he starts asking them a reeeeeaallly slooooow question. And he spends the rest of the series switching between exactly two expressions and tones of voice until people want him to hang himself.

[jjj]

Here is what bugs me about Elizabeth and Philip going to Pastor Tim about the possible move to Russia:  when on earth did E/Ph ever seek someone's advice?  They are exceptionally free of needing affirmation.  Yes, most of us would look for some advice when making a major decision involving children -- but E/Ph are not regular people.  The closest they have come to seeking advice is with Gabriel, and even then, they constantly were doubting his loyalty.  They know the opinion Pastor Tim has of them because of the diary -- and if I saw someone writing about me like that, I would *not* be confiding in that person -- especially about an issue that could lead to my arrest.  A couple of screens ago, I said the conversation reminded me of the conversations Elizabeth had with people who were already dead in her eyes:  Betty, and the Russian woman last week.  I just don't think the writers would provide a scene that out of character without a good reason. 

[White Sheep]

8 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

Pretty much, yes. And also to make sure the family doesn't do anything that could get them into trouble.

Good Point. Good thing that guy keeping them safe. They could befriending a fake family made up up Illegals from from the KGB for all he knows. 

[crgirl412]

35 minutes ago, White Sheep said:

Good Point. Good thing that guy keeping them safe. They could befriending a fake family made up up Illegals from from the KGB for all he knows.

Yes, it's a good thing that the son has made such a close friend who he spends lots of time with and the wife wound up to be friends with his mom who teaches her how to cook American food while she shares her concerns about her son.  

[SlovakPrincess]

Claudia agreed to that way too quickly -- I don't trust her!  Also, have P and E completely forgotten that everyone moving to Russia undermines the Centre's plans for Paige ... and that the Centre won't be too happy about that?  I'm sure Claudia hasn't forgotten ...

I also call bullshit on P and E seeking Pastor Tim's advice.  Like, why?  I guess on the one hand it gives Tim a reason NOT to rat them out, since they're going to leave the country anyway.  But what if Tim is actually alarmed by the idea of Paige and Henry being taken there (especially Henry, who has no idea what's about to happen to him)?  And what if Tim decides to play hero and save them from their parents by going to the authorities?  P and E must know that's a possibility, even if it's remote -- especially since they know Tim already thinks they've made Paige a wreck.  

The Mischa scenes added nothing for me.  

Not real sure what the point of Stan's story is at this point ... shady girlfriend, mission that's now probably compromised ... and none of it seems to be going anywhere.  

I can't get into the Oleg plot because I see no way this doesn't end terribly for him.  No suspense, just dread and misery.

Philip speed-walking to Pasha's house at the end - over Liz and Tuan's protests - was the best part of the episode for me.  

Edited May 28, 2017 by SlovakPrincess

[Clanstarling]

8 hours ago, SlovakPrincess said:

I also call bullshit on P and E seeking Pastor Tim's advice.  Like, why?  I guess on the one hand it gives Tim a reason NOT to rat them out, since they're going to leave the country anyway.  But what if Tim is actually alarmed by the idea of Paige and Henry being taken there (especially Henry, who has no idea what's about to happen to him)?  And what if Tim decides to play hero and save them from their parents by going to the authorities?  P and E must know that's a possibility, even if it's remote -- especially since they know Tim already thinks they've made Paige a wreck.  

On the other hand, PT's taking his own child to live in a foreign country, and may not see that move in such negative terms. Though I agree it's strange, I also agree with other posters (and reviewers) who point out he's literally the only parent they can ask for advice  who knows their circumstances.

And though there is no hint of it in that scene - there is a little bit of mutually assured destruction in that equation - as Pastor Tim has been essentially sheltering Soviet spies for quite a long time now.

Edited May 28, 2017 by Clanstarling

[SunnyBeBe]

16 hours ago, jjj said:

Here is what bugs me about Elizabeth and Philip going to Pastor Tim about the possible move to Russia:  when on earth did E/Ph ever seek someone's advice?  They are exceptionally free of needing affirmation.  Yes, most of us would look for some advice when making a major decision involving children -- but E/Ph are not regular people.  The closest they have come to seeking advice is with Gabriel, and even then, they constantly were doubting his loyalty.  They know the opinion Pastor Tim has of them because of the diary -- and if I saw someone writing about me like that, I would *not* be confiding in that person -- especially about an issue that could lead to my arrest.  A couple of screens ago, I said the conversation reminded me of the conversations Elizabeth had with people who were already dead in her eyes:  Betty, and the Russian woman last week.  I just don't think the writers would provide a scene that out of character without a good reason. 

I've mulled over this question a lot.  A couple of theories that I have considered is  WHAT if P & E weren't sure WHEN they may have to take off and return home.  They don't know what the Center may decided suddenly.  What if they were told to pack and get on a plane within a couple of hours and there would be no time to alert Pastor Tim as to what happened. (Assuming this happens BEFORE he leaves for South America.)  He could panic and call police or spill the beans if he's questioned. I  imagine someone would call police if the whole family disappeared. If he had the heads up that P & E  were planning to return home, he wouldn't panic and might keep zipped up. Plus, it could signal to Pastor Tim that they are trying to alleviate Paige's current misery by removing her from the home of horrors, or so he sees it.  They are not great theories, but something.  

Also, I imagine that it might have been a gesture of staying on his good side.  Still, how would you expect a guy to respond?  I mean, would he really encourage spies to STAY in this country and keep on spying? OR take their innocent minor children to Russia?  Okay....let's see.....lol.  What was he supposed to say?   Do I buy that they really wanted his opinion? NO WAY.

Edited May 28, 2017 by SunnyBeBe

[SlovakPrincess]

The crucial difference between Pastor Tim moving his family to a foreign land and P and E's plan is that the Jennings kids may not have an option to return to the U.S. as adults if they want to... at least not on their own terms. 

I'm not sure how much Tim understands about the Centre's control over the Jennings' lives, but we the audience know that this is unlikely to just be a few years of educational cultural immersion for Paige and Henry, after which they will merrily skip back to go to an American college.  It's going to be more complicated than that.  

Edited May 28, 2017 by SlovakPrincess

[Ina123]

On ‎5‎/‎25‎/‎2017 at 6:24 PM, Kokapetl said:

The Cuban Missile Crisis that everyone lived through? How many missiles did Cuba or the Soviet Union launch at the United States in that conflict?

You don't think people were frightened at that time? You don't think there was a threat?

[mattie0808]

1 hour ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I've mulled over this question a lot.  A couple of theories that I have considered is  WHAT if P & E weren't sure WHEN they may have to take off and return home.  They don't know what the Center may decided suddenly.  What if they were told to pack and get on a plane within a couple of hours and there would be no time to alert Pastor Tim as to what happened. (Assuming this happens BEFORE he leaves for South America.)  He could panic and call police or spill the beans if he's questioned. I  imagine someone would call police if the whole family disappeared. If he had the heads up that P & E  were planning to return home, he wouldn't panic and might keep zipped up. Plus, it could signal to Pastor Tim that they are trying to alleviate Paige's current misery by removing her from the home of horrors, or so he sees it.  They are not great theories, but something.

To me, it just doesn't make much sense (and I know you largely agree with that). Once they're gone, of course people will notice, of course Pastor Tim will know (or at least, be in the right universe of reasons as to) why, and yes, maybe the whole truth about them being spies all this time is uncovered. But...if they're already safely back in the USSR, what difference does that make? We've seen that other illegals are found out once they're dead (the guy from the pilot whose son was returned to the Soviet Union, Jared's parents), but...doesn't matter by then. Didn't matter what everyone knew about Martha once she got on that plane. Wouldn't have mattered about Gregory had he chosen to leave. One of the absolute biggest dangers to P/E and their children is that they are found out by any U.S. authorities before they have one foot out the door. Why tip off the one guy who knows the truth and has been, with no small effort on the Jennings' part, made comfortable with how things are? Why dangle the possibility of completley changing the dynamic, and changing it in a way that he could easily interpret as being toward Paige's further detriment?

P/E have never shown that they respect Pastor Tim or his opinion, and have never sought his opinion on how to deal with Paige, even when he had much more influence over her than he does now and when he was a much bigger question mark/threat to tell the truth. And that was before they knew he was comparing them to child molestors! Also, the idea that they need someone to tell them that it might, you know, be kind of difficult for their kids to be randomly uprooted to the Soviet Union (with one of the kids learning at the same time that his whole life has been a lie) is beyond belief.

I don't think I've been as critical of this season as some here (though, yes, its plot is moving at a snaaaaaaaaaail's pace), but them telling Pastor Tim about the move, unless it's revealed to be for some other purpose, is a bridge too far for me. It's completely nonsensical.

Edited May 28, 2017 by mattie0808

[sistermagpie]

4 minutes ago, mattie0808 said:

Also, the idea that they need someone to tell them that it might, you know, be kind of difficult for their kids to be randomly uprooted to the Soviet Union (with one of the kids learning at the same time that his whole life has been a lie) is beyond belief.

Especially since he didn't give them any advice that was unique to his perspective. He just pretty much reiterated what they would have known themselves.  He didn't give practical advice as a former American teenager who had lived in other places (albeit relatively briefly) himself, or talk about missionary families he might have spoken to to prepare or his own move to Argentina. Philip and Elizabeth haven't experienced the USSR in the 80s but they do know more about how different the two places seemed to them as immigrants. They just only know how they experienced it coming from the other direction. Essentially in the scene they asked him what he thought about Paige and Henry moving and he said he didn't know. So it felt more like they were just wanting somebody to tell them they weren't crazy. 

[SunnyBeBe]

I don't disagree with other theories regarding why P & E told Pastor Tim about their desire to return to Russia and I agree that it doesn't make sense.  I suppose that  the only one that I don't buy is the one the show gave.  That one is the hardest to swallow and so far, I can't.

  It is a mystery, imo.  Mattie0808, about your question upthread as why does it matter, if people know that they are spies after they leave the country.  Well, I think it might for Stan.  For Stan the revelation that his neighbors and best friends were WORKING KGB would likely ruin his career and possibly put him in prison.  I'm not sure what evidence they could find that he was complicit with them, but, I would think believing that he was totally unaware of who they were is preposterous. (Even though, it's true.)  I don't think that I would buy it.  Of course, would P and E really care what happens to Stan after they leave?  I don't know, but, I think Henry and Paige would.  However, how deep would police dig to figure out what happened to this missing family? Would they dig deep enough to know that they were not really who they claimed they were? 

I recall an entire family who disappeared in CA some years ago and there was much speculation about why and if they were part of some secret society, witness protection program, etc.  Eventually, their bodies were found and they were murder victims.)  I'll take more about my take on it to the Speculation thread. 

[mattie0808]

3 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

It is a mystery, imo.  Mattie0808, about your question upthread as why does it matter, if people know that they are spies after they leave the country.  Well, I think it might for Stan.  For Stan the revelation that his neighbors and best friends were WORKING KGB would likely ruin his career and possibly put him in prison.  I'm not sure what evidence they could find that he was complicit with them, but, I would think believing that he was totally unaware of who they were is preposterous. (Even though, it's true.)  I don't think that I would buy it.  Of course, would P and E really care what happens to Stan after they leave?  I don't know, but, I think Henry and Paige would.

True, but there's almost nothing to be done about that. Stan is screwed, period, if/when everyone finds out about the Jennings, however it comes out. Just as Gaad was when everything came out about Martha, and I don't think anyone thought for a second he was aware or involved with anything she did. Phillip may not be happy about that -- I do believe he honestly considers Stan a friend -- but I'd think that's got to be fairly low on P/E's list of priorities (not getting killed, their kids not getting harmed, not being arrested, who knows what else). And telling Pastor Tim they're planning to leave with the kids does nothing to help with the top/existential concerns, only leaves them more vulnerable?

Something tells me this isn't a big deal to the writers and we may never hear about it again, but...it's just so very, very weird.

[Clanstarling]

2 hours ago, SlovakPrincess said:

The crucial difference between Pastor Tim moving his family to a foreign land and P and E's plan is that the Jennings kids may not have an option to return to the U.S. as adults if they want to... at least not on their own terms. 

I'm not sure how much Tim understands about the Centre's control over the Jennings' lives, but we the audience know that this is unlikely to just be a few years of educational cultural immersion for Paige and Henry, after which they will merrily skip back to go to an American college.  It's going to be more complicated than that.  

Absolutely it is a crucial difference - but I was speaking from Pastor Tim's perspective, not what we, the audience know both as essentially omniscient observers of all the players and people who know what actually happened to at least some of the illegals and their families.

Edited May 28, 2017 by Clanstarling

[SunnyBeBe]

Oh yes.  It's weird.   Maybe, the writers left it up to the interns on this one. 

[minamurray78]

Quote

 What if they were told to pack and get on a plane within a couple of hours and there would be no time to alert Pastor Tim as to what happened.

I don't think they would do that, unless they were in real danger of being caught, like when William was taken prisoner, and even then there was a margen of time because the only way the FBI could have know about the Jennings was if William had talked, and I think they were trusting their agent not to.

But if the Centre were to give them the ok to go back home, I think they would take their time to tie all lose ends: at work, with their employes, their clients, neighbours, school, selling the house, etc make it all look normal so that noone would be suspicious after. Just cause they are back in the USSR, doesn't mean the Centre woldn't mind about their cover being blown. Everything would be re-investigated, all the people they were in contact scrutinized, and not that KGB cares about what would happen to Stan or any other neighbour but, why risk it? A couple of illegals embedded 20+ years in the US making it back without never being discovered? Success.

[kokapetl]

3 hours ago, Ina123 said:

You don't think people were frightened at that time? You don't think there was a threat?

Cuba was living under the threat of more Bay of Pigs Invasions courtesy of the United States. And the United States had already placed  nuclear missiles in nations bordering the Soviet Union. The blockade of Cuba by the United States was an act of war, that was illegal. The Soviet Union and Cuba behaved legally. America made the crisis. 

[Ina123]

1 hour ago, Kokapetl said:

Cuba was living under the threat of more Bay of Pigs Invasions courtesy of the United States. And the United States had already placed  nuclear missiles in nations bordering the Soviet Union. The blockade of Cuba by the United States was an act of war, that was illegal. The Soviet Union and Cuba behaved legally. America made the crisis. 

I can understand your response as the answer to some other question but that wasn't my question. So, I repeat, you don't think people were frightened? You don't think there was a threat?

But that's OK. I understand your feelings.

[kokapetl]

29 minutes ago, Ina123 said:

I can understand your response as the answer to some other question but that wasn't my question. So, I repeat, you don't think people were frightened? You don't think there was a threat?

But that's OK. I understand your feelings.

I understand that people were frightened, but was it logical to be frightened of the USSR? One CIA employee died after his  U2 plane was shot down over Cuba. The Soviets had to shoot down U2 planes several times before the United States would cease the unlawful overflights. I don't think there was a Soviet threat. 

Edited May 28, 2017 by Kokapetl

[Clanstarling]

Regardless of which nation was in the right or the wrong, the threat was very real. When things get escalated to that point, it's a crap shoot as to whether or not one will back down, and if either superpower pulled the trigger, the other would retaliate. One hopes cooler minds prevail, but you can't logically trust that they will. History is mixed on that subject because you can't always trust humans to make the sane decision.

So yes, in my opinion, having lived through it, the threat was real and people on both sides (and the rest of the world) were justifiably, and logically afraid.

Edited May 28, 2017 by Clanstarling

[Sarah 103]

10 hours ago, Ina123 said:

You don't think people were frightened at that time? You don't think there was a threat?

My mother has told me multiple times about how she went to school and wasn't sure if she'd be alive and going home at the end of the end. 

4 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

Regardless of which nation was in the right or the wrong, the threat was very real. When things get escalated to that point, it's a crap shoot as to whether or not one will back down, and if either superpower pulled the trigger, the other would retaliate. One hopes cooler minds prevail, but you can't logically trust that they will. History is mixed on that subject because you can't always trust humans to make the sane decision.

So yes, in my opinion, having lived through it, the threat was real and people on both sides (and the rest of the world) were justifiably, and logically afraid.

This is totally correct. Years later my father met someone from Russia. They compared notes about duck and cover. I was surprised the Russians were doing duck and cover too. I thought they would have had something else. 

[millennium]

12 hours ago, Ina123 said:

You don't think people were frightened at that time? You don't think there was a threat?

The beauty of the Cuban missile crisis is that people had to live with a sense of dread for only two weeks.

[FormerMod-a1]

Topic, please.

[izabella]

I am suspicious that Pastor Tim and family are going to live happily ever after.  I think the KGB will kill them once they reach South America, after a short time there, some tragic "accident."  Maybe the Jennings are aware of that and aren't worried about PT because of it.  It still doesn't explain why they would take the risk he might just call the FBI if he was worried about Paige, but he's had plenty of time to do that and hasn't, for Paige and Henry's sake.

18 hours ago, Kokapetl said:

I understand that people were frightened, but was it logical to be frightened of the USSR? 

People believe what they are told by the people running the country.  As we see today, when people are fed a diet of propaganda, they believe it with or without credibility, lies or not.  There's always just enough truth to hang your hat on to believe the worst of any country.

[Umbelina]

If Pastor Tim or his wife die, their lawyer would still release the tape. 

Of course, our super spies, had they brains this season, would have already found the lawyer and stolen the tapes.  I mean seriously, how hard could it be?  They've done much harder things than that.

As it is though, apparently the KGB and Phil and Liz don't care that their entire operation could be blown if Tim or his wife so much as get in a bad car accident.

Sigh.

[Clanstarling]

Has it been confirmed that there is an actual tape with an actual lawyer? My recollection (dim at this point) is that P&E didn't verify it one way or another. They did some surveillance after Tim returned home, but as I recall they never heard Tim and his wife refer to it.

[Erin9]

On 5/27/2017 at 6:48 PM, icemiser69 said:

If they went back to the USSR, I am not convinced they would stay together in the long term.  Their line of work is one of the things that is forcing them to stay together.  I just find it hard to believe that because he no longer has the stomach to kill people when necessary,  that he can stay with someone who is a heartless bitch that has no problem with killing people whether it is necessary or not.

I get it, they got married.  I just don't know if for Philip it is truly love, or if he is a totally lost human being looking for someone to hold on to. 

While he is in the U.S., Elizabeth is his only long term relationship option.

I absolutely think the story we're being told is that they truly love each other. We wouldn't have a show without it imo. P, in particular, has loved E for a long time. It's not about desperation. He's never seemed that way to me. Anyway, they've been growing closer over the years, not further apart. 

And, really, E is not his only option. They split in the past. They don't have to be together personally to work together professionally. Plus, E had her own long term relationship with Gregory. He could have one of his own. And he could always have a relationship with someone who didn't know everything about him ala the spy  who got killed in the pilot. Claudia had one too. It's do- able, but not what this show is about imo. 

If they did go home, their jobs would be very different from what they had in America. 

I don't recall E killing people unnecessarily. It's generally been as ordered or to protect her cover. I don't think Philip has an issue with what she has continued to do. He's just burned out more than she is. 

[Erin9]

47 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

Has it been confirmed that there is an actual tape with an actual lawyer? My recollection (dim at this point) is that P&E didn't verify it one way or another. They did some surveillance after Tim returned home, but as I recall they never heard Tim and his wife refer to it.

No. They've never known for sure. Their surveillance never picked up anything about a tape or lawyer, but it could exist. Or Alice could have been bluffing. 

[Umbelina]

4 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

Has it been confirmed that there is an actual tape with an actual lawyer? My recollection (dim at this point) is that P&E didn't verify it one way or another. They did some surveillance after Tim returned home, but as I recall they never heard Tim and his wife refer to it.

They haven't bothered, and apparently the KGB hasn't either.

My impression and certainly the only thing that makes any logical sense is that there is indeed a tape.  WHY wouldn't there be?  Also, if there wasn't, or if they'd decided to remove that threat after he was found alive, I'm sure we would have seen or heard about that.

The mere fact that the Pastor and his wife didn't expressly say that to the KGB parents of their convert, to me says, there is a tape.  Furthermore, the wife was convinced they'd killed him, or might be about to, so why bluff?  She was pregnant and worried for her own life, as well as her child's.  Again, why bluff?  On top of all of that, let's just say she was bluffing.  They would have certainly gone ahead and done that by now, backed up the threat.  They have an infant and that would prompt them to as well, they aren't just protecting themselves anymore.

I also don't think they are foolish enough to do something in the church office, which is, I think, the only place bugged.  I know for sure I would have (if I didn't just turn them in which is far more likely) and I definitely would do it from a pay phone (set up appointment etc) with a lawyer I never used before but who had an excellent reputation.  I'd suspect my house and church possibly had bugs, and would make the tape somewhere else.  I think the wife showed enough intelligence to do all of those things.

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

My impression and certainly the only thing that makes any logical sense is that there is indeed a tape.  WHY wouldn't there be?  Also, if there wasn't, or if they'd decided to remove that threat after he was found alive, I'm sure we would have seen or heard about that.

Plus, from P&E's pov this would be trying to prove a negative. The only way to know for sure the tape exists is to find it (and hopefully replace it with a tape so nobody knows it's gone). As long as they haven't found it, it could still be out there.

It'd be interesting to know what exactly the conversations the Tims had about it. Tim seemed to come over to the Jennings's apologetically after getting lost, presumably in part because he knew his wife had accused them of having him murdered. But she must have convinced him to either let the tape stay or let the Jennings think it was there. Maybe next week if they go away they might make a point of telling them that they've destroyed the tape because they figure there's no reason for them to be killed when they've proved they're not going to tell the secret and are letting Paige out of their life. Or else remind them that they still have it--but as was said above, that would be essentially telling them that they're outing them in their will, regardless of whether or not they're murdered.

Not that I want any more scenes with Paige, but it's like the very moment that Paige started pulling away from the guy she started having to see him practically every day. Really probably it's not just Paige who was faking it, because Pastor Tim must have obviously realized early on that she wasn't open to having any more in-depth discussions about her parents and even political stuff would be sensitive.

5 hours ago, Erin9 said:

I absolutely think the story we're being told is that they truly love each other. We wouldn't have a show without it imo. P, in particular, has loved E for a long time. It's not about desperation. He's never seemed that way to me. Anyway, they've been growing closer over the years, not further apart. 

Yes, to me it seems like while P loved E first, even for him the actual relationship they've had the past few years is a revelation. Before it was much more based on their covers.

5 hours ago, Erin9 said:

I don't recall E killing people unnecessarily. It's generally been as ordered or to protect her cover. I don't think Philip has an issue with what she has continued to do. He's just burned out more than she is. 

Yeah, Philip's more the soldier who's become disillusioned and too burnt out to continue. But he doesn't see Elizabeth as just a murderer now. He gets what motivates her and why she can still do it, imo.

[Umbelina]

He probably does.

Still, it's not like he can try to have an intimate relationship with anyone else.  It's simply not possible for him.  He can't let anyone know the real him, except Elizabeth. 

That makes her the only possible choice which is pretty sad.  I think Philip may have chosen someone else if he'd ever had the chance, but he didn't.  Now, with his kids as well?  Even if they do go back to Russia, who there could possibly understand him, and what he's been through, what living in the USA was really like, and the whole thing about Liz also being his foxhole partner for years now.

[PamelaMaeSnap]

On May 27, 2017 at 2:41 PM, magemaud said:

Every time now they show a scene in the Moscow grocery store, I'm anxiously trying to spot Martha among the babushka clad shoppers! Maybe because I'm still shipping her and Oleg

I was shocked that during that last grocery store scene last week we didn't get a "Where's Waldo" of Martha again. Our little Faberge easter egg. 

[renatae]

On 5/21/2017 at 4:23 PM, skippylou said:

The end of the first two seasons involved packing up the kids and getting out of Dodge due to real threats. Now they are going to end season 5 with a similar scenario because P&E have conscience pangs over collateral damage resulting from a hit on a Nazi war criminal? Has anyone done a body count of innocents from previous seasons?

I also found it really ironic that, on the way home from the hit, Elizabeth says, "I want to get out of here," as if the U.S., not Russia, is the problem. The hit was on one of their people, at the behest of their people. I just felt it would have been more natural if she had said, "I want to get out of this work," or something similar.

[PamelaMaeSnap]

Because my memory really IS problematic, I ask this here because I know there will be good answers ... it's not rhetorical and I know I'll slap my forehead but ...

I read P&E's reactions to the killings two weeks ago as being what prompted, perhaps, different responses from the two. Yes, technically it was a "hit on a Nazi war criminal" (and am assuming the "collateral damage" Renatae refers to is her husband.) 

But did anyone else feel that she was one of the more complex "hits" because she could really fall into either the criminal or the victim category, and possibly both? I absolutely had sympathy for her. I think she was telling the absolute truth. 

And my read ... totally, YMMV ... was that P did NOT want to kill her whereas E seemed to have no compunction. I mean, they couldn't leave them alive, I get that. Not at that point. But I think he had tremendous remorse and regret and my own reading of his face as they drove home was that he wanted to get out. Period. I didn't get that from her. And I wondered in fact if what I read as her own lack of remorse or guilt or conflicted feelings made him feel somewhat removed/estranged from her in those moments and have his own second thoughts. 

Overthinking, I'm sure, but definitely counting the hours until tonight's season finale. 

[scowl]

I think it's strange that people hate Tuan so much for manipulating a teenager while P & E have spent five seasons murdering innocent bystanders who happened to be too close to their spy missions. Telling a kid to fake a suicide is awful, but snapping some guy's neck who was cooperating with you -- that's OK! 

[Clanstarling]

7 hours ago, PamelaMaeSnap said:

I was shocked that during that last grocery store scene last week we didn't get a "Where's Waldo" of Martha again. Our little Faberge easter egg. 

It was too upscale a grocery for me to expect Martha. She was picking over some pretty lightly stocked shelves, as I recall. Love "where's waldo" though. :)

1 hour ago, scowl said:

I think it's strange that people hate Tuan so much for manipulating a teenager while P & E have spent five seasons murdering innocent bystanders who happened to be too close to their spy missions. Telling a kid to fake a suicide is awful, but snapping some guy's neck who was cooperating with you -- that's OK! 

I don't think people (well, I can only speak for myself) thought it was okay for P & E to do those things. 

But they've never been as casually bloodthirsty in attitude as Tuan, and we know more about them as people. If all we saw was them murdering, without any nuance, insight into their lives, their family and struggles, then I don't know that I'd find this a particularly interesting show. 

Tuan on the other hand, is arrogant and impulsive and without compassion. Except for his possible affection for his foster brother (which may or may not be real), there is very little human about him.

[scowl]

9 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

But they've never been as casually bloodthirsty in attitude as Tuan, and we know more about them as people. If all we saw was them murdering, without any nuance, insight into their lives, their family and struggles, then I don't know that I'd find this a particularly interesting show. 

I never understood why showing P & E as nice people with two kids is supposed to make us feel that they're "compassionate" about anything other than their job. They have left a trail of bodies (they have murdered at least a dozen people, mostly bystanders) and yet they still sleep at night. Worst of all, the constant murdering makes them awful spies. Dead people are not easily ignored except on this show where they seem to vaporize after every murder.

Tuan is bloodthirsty? Who has he killed? I admit I'm only paying about half my attention to this show when it's on. 

[Umbelina]

I don't think Tuan is bloodthirsty at all.  He's task oriented in the extreme, but I don't think he was taking any pleasure in Pasha's fate, he simply wanted to do as asked and get his mother to leave and go live in Russia to fuck the CIA guy some more and supposedly, untrained as she is, get ultra top secret information from the Deputy Chief of Moscow Station CIA.

insert massive eye-rolls here.

ETA

In addition, Tuan grew up in more daily violence and horror and bullshit than most of us can even imagine.  He was a child.  It makes sense that his sense of what is and isn't acceptable in the world is warped.  That violence and murder/maiming came from the USA as well, he has reasons for his hate.

Edited May 30, 2017 by Umbelina

[Clanstarling]

Bloodthirsty was a poor word choice. Cold blooded and heartless is closer to what I meant. And I myself, think he's taking some pleasure in Pasha's fate. YMMV.

[Umbelina]

He doesn't like Pasha, for many reasons, and I get that.  Pasha is SO privileged compared to Tuan's early life, and even now.

I don't see any pleasure though.  I have seen him wanting to accomplish his task from Elizabeth and the KGB, to prove himself to both.  He'll do that at any cost.

He's the character most like Elizabeth, and I think he's been added to the show to make her look "not quite as bad."  I posted a review that compared her to Niles in Frazier.  Same purpose, make the lead look more normal.  I'd thought that before I read the review though.

[sistermagpie]

2 hours ago, Umbelina said:

He's the character most like Elizabeth, and I think he's been added to the show to make her look "not quite as bad."  I posted a review that compared her to Niles in Frazier.  Same purpose, make the lead look more normal.  I'd thought that before I read the review though.

Yeah, I think he's like Elizabeth when she was younger. It's so not unusual for a teenager to be more like this--that's why so many gangs and terrorists appeal to teenagers. He's very "pure" in his attitude and despite having grown up around violence maybe doesn't even have that much experience at all in killing people. But either way, I think you relate to death differently when you grow up with it as a reality--Philip at 10 saw murder as a necessary thing to do.

I remember an interview with the Frasier guys where they said Niles was like Frasier if he'd never been to Cheers. Well, it took Philip and Elizabeth a long time on the job to get to where they are now. In 1981, only 3 years ago, Elizabeth shot a friendly security guard and Philip just rolled his eyes and then they bickered as they laid out his body to look like he was the victim of a sex thing gone wrong. In fact, I think it's their romance that's made both of them more compassionate to others.

It's funny, I was talking to somebody who thought that P&E had clearly missed all sorts of danger signs about Tuan and no only do I not think that Tuan seems "unstable" (he just doesn't have the best judgment) but I've never seen any signs that P&E think he is either. They've been a bit taken aback by his more extreme statements, but they both seem to think he's got good instincts for a young agent and respect him enough to mentor him a bit. They're mad about this because it was a terrible thing for him to do on his own--it's an impatient move. But however much contempt he has for Pasha, this plan was about the mission.