S12.E21: There's Something About Mary

[ILoveReading]

The Good

Dean being a bit of a badass again.  That behind the back shot and the the slid was all kids of awesome.  Jensen just looks like a natural too.  When Sam retreived the colt from Mick why didn't he immediately hand it over to Dean whose the marksman, rather than give it to Eileen.  That never made any sense,

Someone finally calling John's abuse, abuse. 

That's about it.

The Bad

Just about everything else.

The stupid stick comes out again

Toni being back

Why didn't Dean shoot Ketch? 

Crowley being in league with the men of Letters.  Does anyone in the writers room even try anymore?  That makes the Brits hypocrites among everything else that they are wiling to work with demons..  No way their code would let Crowley live. 

Mary.  They've completely ruined the character.   If she dies I'll feel bad for Sam and Dean but that's about it.  They were so desperate not to turn her into one cliche they turned her into another.  I'm convinced that Mary would have eventually gotten bored with the whole Suzy homemaker routine and left.  Dean was better off with his memories.   Sam was better off not knowing her.

Why after ignoring her boys all season am I supposed to believe they suddenly mean everything to now.

Im neutral on Eileen's death.  I liked the character and have nothing against her but I've learned not get attached. 

That ridiculous shot at the end.  Die Lucifer Die and take your spawn with you.

[Katy M]

14 minutes ago, rue721 said:

It wasn't the only thing she could have done, it was the only thing she could think of. Which is why I think she's dull. I started suspecting she just wasn't that bright a while back and this episode just reinforced it. Guess John was the brains of their operation?

Well, what would you have done?

[mertensia]

7 hours ago, Dobian said:

Meh.  So they have Mary prisoner for what, a week?  Drug her up some, mess with her head, and voila, puppet psychopath who will kill her own sons on command.  Right.

You're forgetting that canonically they use spells, too. 

As for the fight-well, why not let Sam protect you while he tries to kill Ketch? If he succeeds, bonus! If Ketch succeeds, bonus!  Either way she would be down an adversary. Of course, reality wasn't like that but hey, there was a good chance.

[Aeryn13]

Can they give it a rest with harping on how Mary is such a great hunter in every single episode? The BMOL make her their puppet and even they still feel the need for pimping. And the brain-washing thing, well, I just don`t find it effective. The character has been cold and unpleasant for me to watch when she wasn`t brainwashed. Now she is colder and more unpleasant while brainwashed. On my end not much has changed.

Also, did she seriously not get how her children grew up after her death? She read the damn journal, didn`t she? Henry Winchester did and it painted a clear enough picture for him. That this actually looked like brand new information imparted on her made her look super-callous. 

Crowley being in league with the BMOL is so stupidly stupid, I don`t even know what to say. Sure, Crowley will make opportunistic deals like that but the BMOL? The super-rigid, obsessed "no monster alive"? Urgh.

Killing Eileen just like that as a byline? I expected it but still blergh.

Elizabeth Blackmore can do one thing: grating. Unfortunately, that is not something any character is supposed to do IMO. Lady Deadeyes should have stayed gone.

This shot with Lucifer in the lush green fields. Like, what the hell?

Quote

Dean being a bit of a badass again.  That behind the back shot and the the slid was all kids of awesome. 

That was the five seconds of the episode I liked. I can get this from watching a gif, though. In fact, I saw it as a gif on tumblr. That was better than watching this ep.   

This Season had episodes that enraged me more but the stupidity levels were off the charts here. If they wanted to bring the Lucifer/Spawn and BMOL storylines together, the easy option would have been that Lucifer being free is a problem the BMOL want to solve. This cockamamie alliance thing didn`t need to happen.

[rue721]

3 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Well, what would you have done?

I mean, personally, I would have tried to get more info from Ketch, and tried to get to his phone rather than his gun.

Ideally, I would want to use the  phone to record and automatically upload the brainwashing sessions to somewhere (like an email box) that the boys check.

Not even saying it's "better" as a response or plan, it just is a different one. There are infinite responses or plans Mary could have had, she just had a particularly dull one IMO.

IMO some of that is because of B-L being very boring writers, but IMO it's somewhat in character, too -- which I think is disappointing.

[ILoveReading]

4 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

 

This Season had episodes that enraged me more but the stupidity levels were off the charts here. If they wanted to bring the Lucifer/Spawn and BMOL storylines together, the easy option would have been that Lucifer being free is a problem the BMOL want to solve. This cockamamie alliance thing didn`t need to happen.

This was Sam and Dean standing around and getting caught by the secret service level of stupid.   The behind the back shot and slide were unfortunately runined by Dean getting taken down so easily by LadyIwishyouhadstayedgone.

[Katy M]

6 minutes ago, rue721 said:

I mean, personally, I would have tried to get more info from Ketch, and tried to get to his phone rather than his gun.

Ideally, I would want to use the  phone to record and automatically upload the brainwashing sessions to somewhere (like an email box) that the boys check.

Not even saying it's "better" as a response or plan, it just is a different one. There are infinite responses or plans Mary could have had, she just had a particularly dull one IMO.

IMO some of that is because of B-L being very boring writers, but IMO it's somewhat in character, too -- which I think is disappointing.

She knew she was only going to have one shot.  Me, I would have just tried to go for the simplest thing, like she did.  I think Ketch would notice his phone was missing way before she could have recorded anything useful.   I think her stupid moves were mostly from last week.  I think this week, she did the best she could with what she had.  She just should have shot faster.

Edited May 12, 2017 by Katy M

[Aeryn13]

Quote

The behind the back shot and slide were unfortunately runined by Dean getting taken down so easily by LadyIwishyouhadstayedgone.

Yeah, that was pretty stupid but I`m happy he got some competency points later to balance it out. Personally, I will just go with the gif and ignore everything else about this episode. 

[Dobian]

I forgot to mention some comment Lady Bevell made to repeal and replace the American hunters.  Maybe the third political joke the show had made in twelve seasons.  A few points for being topical I guess.  The rest of the episode sucked.

Quote

You're forgetting that canonically they use spells, too.

She was actually torturing Sam, plus the drugs, plus whatever else, and he kept resisting.  Mary folded like a house of cards after a couple of days in solitary.  If spells are so effective, why even bother with brainwashing?  Just cast some domination spell on her.  This show has shown before that they will use any plot contrivance imaginable, no matter how far-fetched.

Edited May 12, 2017 by Dobian

[Geordiegirl1967]

43 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

When Sam retreived the colt from Mick why didn't he immediately hand it over to Dean whose the marksman, rather than give it to Eileen.  That never made any sense,

Is that what happened? I thought Eileen picked it up off the ground herself. But then I haven't rewatched a single ep since Xmas so I may be misremembering.

But anyway the issues wasn't Eileen's marksmanship. She hit her target. Problem was that Dagon dematerialised briefly and it passed through her.

[Pondlass1]

My eyes are sore from all the eye rolling they did last night.  These writers write  for the immediate shock & awe aspect they show complete disregard to characterization, canon or what makes sense.   

My biggest gripe is all the coming & going in that bloody bunker.  Poor silly Abaddon spent a whole season trying to get the key. Grand Central Station has nothing on this place.  Everyone and their dog just waltzes in.   Sam and Dean seem to have lost all knowledge of sigils and warding devices. Ok - I realize BMOL are human - but didn't we just see a sigil that trapped Dean... a human?  Why can't they use that?  And, honestly, that giant sized mic was right out of an Austin Powers spy comedy -- as was the ridiculous James Bond cliffhanger.  "We won't shoot you although you're standing  right in front of us.  We'll walk away so you can concoct some fangled dangled escape with a pine cone and elastic bands".

I don't know how they're going to redeem this mess in just 2 episodes. We won't shed a tear when Mary dies. And I'm done with baby, baby daddy and Crowley stupidity.  

Oh it's soooooo frustrating.... what have they done to my show? Sam and Dean.... where ARE you?

[TexasGal]

You guys, seriously - they know that the BMoL got into the bunker to lay the bug.  But they don't fortify it somehow before they leave for their sting so that they can get in AGAIN?  Nope.  Not buying that at all.

[DittyDotDot]

Lucifer talks too much. Ketch talks too much. Lady Toni talks too much...TOO MUCH TALKING. GAH!!!

I expected Eileen wasn't long for this show after her last appearance, so not surprised she died. Still disappointing they went back to that well. The show is getting mighty claustrophobic.

Otherwise, nothing to see here of interest. Pretty predictable and basic, if you ask me.

13 hours ago, Jediknight said:

So instead of having Lady Bevill flipping the bird to the BMoL and joining the Winchesters, she's going to join them because Ketch turned on her.  Come on guys, if you want to redeem her, have it be a choice.

I don't think they're going to redeem her. I think she's toast, myself.

13 hours ago, bettername2come said:

What kind of idiot leaves the Winchesters with 2 to 3 days to die? I mean, have you met them? Cheating death is kind of their thing.

Idiots. That's who.

12 hours ago, ZennyKenny said:

- It's just unreasonable how much I despise Lady What'sherface even though she's barely been in this season. I hate her so much more than Ketch, and I have no idea why.

Because she's annoying and stupid and...well as I already stated, she talks too much. ;)

12 hours ago, rue721 said:

I'm pretty much fine with Mary because apparently I am really bad at holding a grudge -- except that she's dumb as a box of hair, and that can be aggravating.

Ain't that the damn truth!

12 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

I actually thought that was a pretty effective scene.  I totally got where Mary was coming from.  She's had her family and her strength of will, and now that she knows they can make her kill people she cares about, she can't bear the thought of that.  She fully intended to kill herself, but when that didn't work she tried to appeal to Ketch to do it for her.  I thought her breakdown was very believable.  

Me too. I also think she's foolish and naive, but even dumb girls have breakdowns.

10 hours ago, Mick Lady said:

If Crowley is truly dead, I'm not watching anymore!

Not really, but it makes me feel all powerful and stuff...

You go girl!

8 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I'm not going to belabor the Colt in 12.18 discussion in this thread. I'll take my further comments over there .

The question remains was that the Colt under the table in this episode.

I can't see it well enough, but I'd guess not. I mean, the last we saw of the Colt it was in two pieces. Plus, if they did manage to fix it, why would they leave it under the table like that? It's a special gun wouldn't they take it with them or at least put it somewhere safer? 

[mertensia]

1 hour ago, Dobian said:

I forgot to mention some comment Lady Bevell made to repeal and replace the American hunters.  Maybe the third political joke the show had made in twelve seasons.  A few points for being topical I guess.  The rest of the episode sucked.

She was actually torturing Sam, plus the drugs, plus whatever else, and he kept resisting.  Mary folded like a house of cards after a couple of days in solitary.  If spells are so effective, why even bother with brainwashing?  Just cast some domination spell on her.  This show has shown before that they will use any plot contrivance imaginable.no matter how far-fetched.

Probably because years of experimentation have taught them that using spells along with drugs was the best choice. Plus they were after different things: with Sam it was information, including information that didn't exist. With Mary it was straight brainwashing. 

[Hybiscus]

So glad I came into this thread.  I'm way behind on watching eps.  I HATE the whole BMOL storyline (which is why I'm behind) and now knowing that not only does Eileen die, but that Toni the Torturer comes back has just made me delete all my unwatched eps and cancel further recordings.  Ugh.  Just. Ugh.

[Dobian]

Yeah, exttracting information should be a lot easier than braimwashing someone to do your bidding.  They may as well have just brought in Mad Hatter from Batman, it would have been more believable.

Edited May 12, 2017 by Dobian

[SueB]

3 minutes ago, Dobian said:

Yeah, exttracting information should be a lot easier than braimwashing someone to do your bidding.  They may as well as just brought in Mad Hatter from Batman, it would have been more believable.

I'm not sure that's accurate.  With extraction of information, you need to keep the basic personality in tact and use persuasion to get accurate answers.  With straight-up brainwashing, you trounce all over everything and insert your own world.  They're potential permanent damage in brainwashing.  I think it's more brute force and if the subject dies, they move on.  They want the subject to live (for a while at least) in interrogation.  

And I think the ONLY reasons the boys won't put one immediately between Lady Toni's eyes is that she is the brainwasher and can help w/ their mom.  

Edited May 12, 2017 by SueB

[Idahoforspn]

The slide in disarming of Ketch and the behind the back shot were the only parts of this episode I truly enjoyed. So that means the only good parts of the episode for me were things Jensen probably ad-libbed.

[Katy M]

58 minutes ago, TexasGal said:

You guys, seriously - they know that the BMoL got into the bunker to lay the bug.  But they don't fortify it somehow before they leave for their sting so that they can get in AGAIN?  Nope.  Not buying that at all.

Ketch, or possibly Mick, straight out told Dean that their BMOL bunkers used the same key.  So, finding out about the bug, was literally not new information on how vulnerable they were.

[gonzosgirrl]

12 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I was looking at the handle.  I need a static pic of that to really look at it. Hmm....

Seriously though, if they would be dumb enough to leave it unprotected again, after having it stolen once, they don't deserve to have it. I know these writers are invested in either making them super!ninja!badasses or dumb as rocks, but... wait, what was I saying?

[gonzosgirrl]

With a few more hours to digest it all, I hate it even more. Not only full of egregious plot holes, but entire histories fabricated with a couple lines of exposition. Crowley has had an arrangement with the Brits since forever? O rly.

Lady Twat had to kidnap and torture Sam for information, but she suddenly knows all about Mary's deal and John's mental state 30+ years ago. Oooo rly.

Aside from all that - do you think maybe Mark S asked (begged) to be killed off after being forced to portray Crowley as an idiot in every single scene with Lucifer this season (and most of last). As far as I'm concerned, it was a mercy killing.

Positive note? Dean shooting behind his back was pretty cool.

I get why he didn't just execute Ketch once he had him disarmed, but why on earth Ketch & RoboMary would leave them to die slowly like that is beyond stupid. Guess what writers? The stupid, cheesy, 'the bunker makes a good tomb' line works with dead bodies, too. It's like the very worst of the Bond movie villains. Austin Powers had more gravitas, ffs.

Edited May 12, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[rue721]

Honestly, if I were Ketch, I wouldn't have revealed that Mary has been brainwashed, and instead would have trapped her in the bunker with Sam and Dean. They would have been willing to tell her anything, and he could have gotten good intel from them that way -- that is, before giving Mary the kill order and having her bump them off before releasing her from the bunker himself, if he really wants them dead.

I can kind of see the scenario of him leaving Toni with them as sort of the same idea -- except that Sam and Dean have such bad blood with her, and she failed so miserably at getting info from Sam before that that seems pretty unlikely.

Edited May 12, 2017 by rue721

[catrox14]

4 hours ago, Katy M said:

Why wouldn't they?  How else would they get mail?  They need a mailing address for their credit card scams..

It's not so much that they have a P. O. Box but it's more that they went to an actual post office in Lebanon to get it. That doesn't seem very smart for guys who are supposed to be legally dead. Yes, they  move in and out of small towns to investigate cases using fake FBI badges and deal with small sheriff's offices but they solve a case and get out of town rather quickly. 

Going to an federal facility like the post office to get mail at a P.O. Box in the middle of the day on a weekly basis is silly IMO. It would be much smarter for them to use things like Postal Annex which are privately run and the clerks are not really going to ask many questions. They should use one in a town in which they don't actually live but is not that far to go since they seem to only check their mail once a week or so I would think.

They were declared dead  a few years ago and Frank took them off the grid, but even aside from that as recently as 2 years ago there is security video of Dean murdering that guy at the Gas N Sip in Wisconsin which was in the custody of the Sheriff which is how Sam knew Dean was a demon. Somehow that video or a still from that video ended up in the BMOL dossier for Dean. Now, I had fanwanked that Sam automagically erased that video given the police never put his name out as a wanted murderer. Jody didn't put the kibosh on it because AFAIK, she has no idea that Dean was a demon and murdered someone, even though she is a sheriff, yet the BMOL have a still of him from that video. which means the video still existed somewhere with someone.

Sam and Dean were also just arrested for trying to assassinate the President. It's a ridiculous plot line but it happened. The info is hard to find but someone somewhere besides those guys at the black site, have information, like  OH THE delivery service that goes to the black site.  Also, at some point someone else who works at those black sites is going to show up there and find everyone gone. Or did they burn down the place? I mean surely a fire in the middle of the mountains of Colorado not far from multiple communities, is going to get some attention.  At some point, someone was going to go back to that black site and find what?  My point being that someone somewhere has the 411 on the guys that tried to assassinate POTUS.  Never mind that someone in DC is going to want to know what happened to the pretty woman that was President Jeff's aide and companion. But hey what's just details...sigh (also a plot written by Blemming and Dabb, soooo)

But that's me, its one of those things that bothers me greatly about the lack of continuity. But hey that's just me. It bugs me. No one else need be bugged by it. It's my gripe and I'm standing by it. LOL

 

Quote

It was never known by Sam and Dean how it worked.  Obviously someone must have known how it worked.  And, it may be the same set up as the BMOL bunkers

Sam, Dean and Charlie couldn't figure out how all that worked, and they wanted to know. But sure the BMOL who had little ties to the American MOL AFAIK, just know all the stuff about the bunker that was built under a power plant in Kansan in the 1920's but the boys don't. Again. sorry I don't buy it. Others can. I'm tired of writing that makes the boys look more stupid than these assholes. 

Edited May 12, 2017 by catrox14

[Katy M]

4 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Sam, Dean and Charlie couldn't figure out how all that worked, and they wanted to know. But sure the BMOL who had little ties to the American MOL AFAIK, just know all the stuff about the bunker that the boys don't. Again. sorry I don't buy it. Others can. I'm tired of writing that makes the boys look more stupid than these assholes. 

I don't think it's that the BMOLs "figured it out."  Look, I hate the whole BMOLs thing and I think their mere existence is a retcon.  But, since they do exist, and we have been told that their keys work in American bunkers and all bunkers over the world, I tend to think that all the bunkers were built the exact same way.  Since, there was no time skip in BMOLs timeline, it stands to reason that they would know how the bunkers work.

I'm more mad about the bunker as a whole because Larry told Sam that the key he was handing him was the ONLY key and that the bunker was inpentrable to every evil known to man.  People, and I think at least a monster or two, have been strolling in and out of there since at least season 10.  And, if the BMOLs existed and are so gungho on ridding the world of monsters, why didn't they come over sooner after the massacre that left all(?) American bunkers uninhabited. 

Also, I've never been to an organizational meeting or ceremony that had 100% attendance.  People get sick, have family emergencies, etc.

[DittyDotDot]

41 minutes ago, rue721 said:

Honestly, if I were Ketch, I wouldn't have revealed that Mary has been brainwashed, and instead would have trapped her in the bunker with Sam and Dean. They would have been willing to tell her anything, and he could have gotten good intel from them that way -- that is, before giving Mary the kill order and having her bump them off before releasing her from the bunker himself, if he really wants them dead.

I can kind of see the scenario of him leaving Toni with them as sort of the same idea -- except that Sam and Dean have such bad blood with her, and she failed so miserably at getting info from Sam before that that seems pretty unlikely.

Yeah, I wondered why Ketch even came in the bunker? I mean, wouldn't it have been just as effective to "tinker" with the locks and ventilation and left. So when Sam and Dean returned with Toni, they were locked in. He could've drugged Mary and left her there too. Easy peasy, right?

Oh, yeah, he wouldn't have gotten to monologue and gloat at the Winchesters. We can't have that now can we?

[catrox14]

18 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Also, I've never been to an organizational meeting or ceremony that had 100% attendance.  People get sick, have family emergencies, etc.

I presume this is in reponae to the disappearance of Kelly Kline? This isn't a standard job. This is the POTUS, and an aide to the POTUS who has been dating POTUS. You can bet you bottom dollar someone knew about their relationship. She called her friend to  tell her she was pregnant by POTUS and then goes missing? That's a huge red flag and the stupidity of that being dropped by the writers , thus far  reminds me of how dumb it all is. But my point is that the boys going to a post office makes them unnecessarily visible for dudes that are supposed to be dead.

[Katy M]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I presume this is in reponae to the disappearance of Kelly Kline? This isn't a standard job. This is the POTUS, and an aide to the POTUS who has been dating POTUS. You can bet you bottom dollar someone knew about their relationship. She called her friend to  tell her she was pregnant by POTUS and then goes missing? That's a huge red flag and the stupidity of that being dropped by the writers , thus far  reminds me of how dumb it all is. But my point is that the boys going to a post office makes them unnecessarily visible for dudes that are supposed to be dead.

No, it was in response to the fact that supposedly EVERY AMOL member (except Larry) was killed at Henry and Josie's initiation.

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, Katy M said:

No, it was in response to the fact that supposedly EVERY AMOL member (except Larry) was killed at Henry and Josie's initiation.

Oh sorry. I guess I didn't follow that was connected to your previous comment on Larry. I haven't had my coffee .sorry!

[Fables]

This episode is kind of good and tragic. The BMOL killed off Eileen(I really wanted her to live and be paired with Sam in the future). Use mind control on Mary to turn her their puppet-killer.  Then there is Lady Toni who is back.  I still confused how she knew all about John's life with Sam and Dean and was little annoyed that she was making John out to be some kind of psychotic child-abuser.  Sure John wasn't the greatest dad but he was a loving one.  Plus it is ironically she was criticizing John's parenting as neglect when she is practically doing the same thing to her own son, constantly away on her mission even leaving the country, kidnapping and torturing people risking her own life while leaving her own small child alone with the nanny  or the maid to raise.  I thought the scene with Mary and Ketch was heartbreaking as I saw Mary's pain and guilt over believing in an organization that she thought would rid the country of monsters so her sons could have a better life and the thought that she killed people she cared about and could hurt her own sons and she would rather die than let that happen. But I really hope she shot Ketch instead and try to figure out an escape plan. And then the end where Dean and Sam saw Mary now under complete mind-control and Dean trying to reach her was also sad, I felt bad for all three of them.   I hope they don't kill Mary off in the finale but her sons are able to save her from the BMOL and break her free from their control  and take down the BMOL so in the next season she can finally get to bond with them something the writers should had let her do this season but they underused her since bringing her back. As for Toni it looks like she is stuck with the Winchesters and they were have to work together to escape but that doesn't make her redeemable, but they might need to keep her alive to get to the BMOL and save their mother. I also hope Jody also makes it out alive in the finale but I my fingers are crossed. As Crowley I was shocked that he knew Dr. Hess and is working with her, I wonder what will happen when the Winchesters find out his part in killing Eileen.  I don't believe Lucifer killed him either because nothing happened when he stabbed Crowley and there is that rat I think Crowley possessed it.   I can't wait for what happens when Lucifer's child is born but I am quite nervous for the finale.  According to Dabb, not everybody will make it out alive and that could even include, Crowley, Castiel, Mary or even Jody.  Plus actor Mark Pellingrino who plays Lucifer (I may have misspelled his last name) said that the viewers will hate him in the finale and something big is coming to happen in the very end.

[Geordiegirl1967]

On 12/05/2017 at 3:09 PM, Pondlass1 said:

Sam and Dean.... where ARE you?

That is the key issue. I can (and have) put up with an awful lot of canon fails and illogical stories while ever Dean & Sam are at the heart of it all. But if the stories are stupid and S&D aren't even involved that much it loses me. 

It is depressing to even start to list the ways Dean and Sam were underserved by this ep, but for starters...

- no discernable acknowledgement in the script of the emotional impact of Eileen's death - which let down her character and the episode. I would have expected Dean to sympathise with / comfort (not in a naff fan fiction way - a pat on the shoulder would do) a clearly distressed Sam (well done to Jared for bringing some emotion to Eileen's death that wasn't even in the script in the scene where they got her letter - tho he got no help from the writers). But these writers never capitalise on even the most obvious opportunities to showcase the brothers bond.

- both boys shown as idiotic for not protecting the Bunker from the MoL when they knew they could get in

- looking in the fridge for bugs before they looked under the table in the main room where they do all their strategising.

Far too much of the ep (and same can be said of the season) being focused on Crowley, Lucifer, Ketch, Mary, Lady B, random hunter dude etc and barely any screen time for Dean and Sam. The rat had a more interesting emotional arc this ep than they did!!!

Sooooo frustrating!

Edited May 15, 2017 by Geordiegirl1967

[DittyDotDot]

1 minute ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

- no discernable acknowledgement in the script of the emotional impact of Eileen's death - which let down her character and the episode. I would have expected Dean sympathise with / comfort (not in a naff fan fiction way - a pat on the shoulder would do) a clearly distressed Sam (well done to Jared for bringing some emotion to Eileen's death that wasn't even in the script in the scene where they got her letter - tho he got no help from the writers). But these writers never capitalise on even the most obvious opportunities to showcase the brothers bond.

What makes you think it wasn't in the script?

[trxr4kids]

So I finally watched the episode which my daughter watched last night and decided to delete after watching for reasons I'll be sure to ask her about later, it was probably because it was a buck/lemming episode and she knows my feelings on those and/or she thought it was so awful she was being helpful, it wasn't helpful at all however since I had to watch on demand without being able to ffwd and commercials, but I digress. So my thoughts:

1) They forgot to check their bathroom, bedrooms, dungeon and gun range before they checked the single most obvious place for a bug, either those scenes were edited or Blemming only wanted them to look incredibly stupid instead of outright imbecilic.

2) Mary's hair and makeup held up remarkably well not to mention that white shirt remaining pristine, I suspect spellwork.

3) The commercial for bi polar medication had me wishing the show would take it.

4) So much talking

5) More laughable special effects

6) I'm afraid, very afraid Ketch is going to be given what passes for redemption on the show.

7) I wonder if I should switch homeowners insurance.

8) Lady Smugasswitchwhoneedstodie telling Mary about John's behavior after her death was wholly unsatisfying because a) she didn't figure it out on her own and b) she can conveniently chalk it up to part of the brainwashing/mental torture.

9) I liked Lucifer's new outfit, I was sick of the same old tired, dingy stuff from season 5, you know like Lucifer himself.

10) Wow what a cliff hanger huh? Trapped in the bunker with dwindling air, however will they survive <massive eye roll>

[Katy M]

1 minute ago, trxr4kids said:

2) Mary's hair and makeup held up remarkably well not to mention that white shirt remaining pristine, I suspect spellwork.

It may be the same spellwork that keeps that bunker absolutely dust bunny free.  I WANT THAT SPELL!!!!!

[Jediknight]

5 hours ago, Katy M said:

Why wouldn't they?  How else would they get mail?  They need a mailing address for their credit card scams.

And Dean's gotta get his Busty Asian Beauties.

[Idahoforspn]

10 minutes ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

That is the key issue. I can put up (and have) with an awful lot of canon fails and illogical stories while ever Dean & Sam are at the heart of it all. But if the stories are stupid and S&D aren't even involved that much it loses me. 

It is depressing to even start to list the ways Dean and Sam were underserved by this ep, but for starters...

- no discernable acknowledgement in the script of the emotional impact of Eileen's death - which let down her character and the episode. I would have expected Dean sympathise with / comfort (not in a naff fan fiction way - a pat on the shoulder would do) a clearly distressed Sam (well done to Jared for bringing some emotion to Eileen's death that wasn't even in the script in the scene where they got her letter - tho he got no help from the writers). But these writers never capitalise on even the most obvious opportunities to showcase the brothers bond.

- both boys shown as idiotic for not protecting the Bunker from the MoL when they knew they could get in

- looking in the fridge for bugs before they looked under the table in the main room where they do all their strategising.

Far too much of the ep (and same can be said of the season) being focused on Crowley, Lucifer, Ketch, Mary, Lady B, random hunter dude etc and barely any screen time for Dean and Sam. The rat had a more interesting emotional arc this ep than they did!!!

Sooooo frustrating!

I feel like, even with the reduced screen time, if they would write the other characters into the boys' arc instead of the other way around it would work better

[trxr4kids]

Oh one more thing (tm Columbo), who leaves a leftover burger partially unwrapped, what's even the point of saving it if you're not gonna do it right? Also which of them didn't finish what looked to be an average sized burger? Are they dieting? How long was it there to smell bad? So many unanswered questions. ; )

[Katy M]

10 minutes ago, trxr4kids said:

Oh one more thing (tm Columbo), who leaves a leftover burger partially unwrapped, what's even the point of saving it if you're not gonna do it right? Also which of them didn't finish what looked to be an average sized burger? Are they dieting? How long was it there to smell bad? So many unanswered questions. ; )

I'm going to go with Dean. He had more than one.  I only say this because of Tall Tales, where Sam says something about his leftovers being Darwinism.  Yes, I know there was a lot of exaggeration and whatnot going on in that episode, but most of the stuff had some grains of truth in them.

[Dobian]

2 hours ago, SueB said:

I'm not sure that's accurate.  With extraction of information, you need to keep the basic personality in tact and use persuasion to get accurate answers.  With straight-up brainwashing, you trounce all over everything and insert your own world.  They're potential permanent damage in brainwashing.  I think it's more brute force and if the subject dies, they move on.  They want the subject to live (for a while at least) in interrogation.  

And I think the ONLY reasons the boys won't put one immediately between Lady Toni's eyes is that she is the brainwasher and can help w/ their mom.  

I have to disagree.  Turning someone into the Manchurian Candidate is on a whole other level than trying to torture information out of them.  And the subject has to be complicit, a willing participant after a long period of psychological manipulation, building trust, loyalty, etc.  Not simply by tossing them into a room and inducing a few hallucinations.  You don't get to incapacitate Mary at the tail end of one episode, and by the beginning of the next episode (and with no apparent time jump in between, like "six months later") she's been reprogrammed.  Since they're throwing magic into the mix, you might as well just toss the brainwashing premise out the window, have BMoL wave a magic wand, and voila, Mary is their puppet.

The whole BMoL storyline has been crap.  They could have made a believable BMoL, a cool secret organization with a rich history.  And eventually Sam and Dean clash with them over how to handle the whole Lucifer situation, with the cowboy Americans wanting to tackle it differently from the stiff upper lip Brits.  But no, they make it a cult of raving psychopaths, led by a single sociopath matriarch.  Where are the other elder men of letters, did she kill them all?  This organization had its own school for crying out loud, like Hogwarts, or the X-Men.  There should have been a whole generation of elder statesmen for the group.  Nothing about them makes sense.  Their genocide of the American hunters makes no sense.  They're just a cliché Villain of the Season to be dispatched after 23 episodes of making the Winchesters' lives miserable.

Oh, and Eileen's death...the show continues it's hate for female characters, it loves to knock them off for shock value even when they are on the periphery, just so Sam and Dean can suffer more and have more revenge motivation.

Edited May 12, 2017 by Dobian

[ZennyKenny]

6 hours ago, Myrelle said:

I can't wait for the Mary Winchester and Lucifer Show to be over. I can't wait to put this season in the rear view mirror. It feels like S8 all over again-only worse.

Thank you!! I didn't realize that it felt like season 8, but it knew it felt like something. Yeah, that cringey soap-opera-ey drama. Only this time there's no Benny to make it tolerable!

[Mick Lady]

16 hours ago, catrox14 said:

So, Eileen's death begs the question...Did she and Sam have the sex? I don't know whether I want this to be true or not. Conflicted.

I'm sure they did. Doesn't every woman Sam sleeps with die?

[ahrtee]

5 minutes ago, Mick Lady said:

I'm sure they did. Doesn't every woman Sam sleeps with die?

Well, there were all the women Soulless Sam slept with, the doctor in Sex and Violence and the waitress in Baby (not to mention Amelia!) who are all (as far as we know) still alive, so maybe the curse is broken and Eileen was just a coincidence?  Or maybe it just kills women he actually *likes.* Which can explain some things about his relationship with Amelia, too! :)

[catrox14]

8 minutes ago, Mick Lady said:

I'm sure they did. Doesn't every woman Sam sleeps with die?

That's why I was wondering. Since there was no real confirmation they had the sex, does that make it better or worse for Sam if they did not, because she died anyway. I'm not so sure Sam and Sarah ever had the sex either.

OH NO! What if Sam can't even be attracted to someone without them being killed? This is like teen horror film nonsense for Sam LOL

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, trxr4kids said:

So I finally watched the episode which my daughter watched last night and decided to delete after watching for reasons I'll be sure to ask her about later, it was probably because it was a buck/lemming episode and she knows my feelings on those and/or she thought it was so awful she was being helpful, it wasn't helpful at all however since I had to watch on demand without being able to ffwd and commercials, but I digress. So my thoughts:

1) They forgot to check their bathroom, bedrooms, dungeon and gun range before they checked the single most obvious place for a bug, either those scenes were edited or Blemming only wanted them to look incredibly stupid instead of outright imbecilic.

<snip>

Dean checked the fridge. Sam checked the fucking telescope. I think I actually hurt my eyes, they rolled so hard. Playing a scene like that for laughs (like Dean not being able to climb a fence) is one thing, but it was all so very earnest. I would dearly love to hear Jensen & Jared's true feelings about acting out such nonsense.

Still, they are a step ahead of poor Mark Sheppard licking the floor and dancing like a puppet.

WTF happened to my show?

[trxr4kids]

9 minutes ago, ZennyKenny said:

Thank you!! I didn't realize that it felt like season 8, but it knew it felt like something. Yeah, that cringey soap-opera-ey drama. Only this time there's no Benny to make it tolerable!

Just so you know, I'm now going to hold you personally responsible if we get outrageously over the top declarations of partially conditional unconditional and undying really they don't stay dead love in the finale. You've doomed us all man!

[Wayward Son]

• Eileen's death was so graphic :( . RIP Eileen! You will be missed. Im not surprised though as the actress got a leading role on another show. 

• I felt emotional when they're checking Mary's motel room and Dean goes straight for the bath tub. A surprisingly subtle, for Bucklemming, sign of his worry she may have ended up like Charlie. It was especially chilling considering the scene that preceded it. 

• He mustn't be a very good hunter if he doesn't notice someone casually sitting on his couch. RIP Rick! 

• I'm glad we got a confirmation the British Man of Letters were aware of Mary's death. Considering the fundamental role it played in introducing the brothers to the world of hunting it would have been unbelievable if they hadn't. 

• If they were such experts at brainwashing why exactly did they not use this on Sam at the start of the season? Especially when it became obvious the torture wasn't working on him. 

• They missed a letter from Eileen :( . My heart broke when I saw the look of devastation on Sam's face as he read her request to stay with them for a couple of days. I can just imagine their guilt at the idea of Eileen dying thinking they didn't care enough to answer her :( 

• The transfer of control was clearly something set up by Crowley! It seemed to me that the demon was simply analysing the markers and stumbled across the transfer of power. 

• I can sympathise with Mary's plight! The idea of losing my free will and self-autonomy is one of the scariest things I can imagine. Especially if I was being turned into a weapon against those I love like Mary was. 

• Lucifer and Crowley sticking their tongues out at each other like children was absolutely ridiculous. I assume this was meant to be humorous, but it was simply eye roll worthy for me. 

• I'm curious to find out what Crowley's endgame is. I'm assuming he wants Lucifer to find the nephilim for him. The transfer without smoke works as the demons in Devil's Trap moved from host to host In a similar manner. Have we ever seen demons possess an animal before? 

• Haha Ketch turned on you LadyNeedsToDie! 

• I find it interesting that Mary was the only one who couldn't free herself from mind control as a result of Dean's plea! Is this meant to convey that her feelings for him  aren't as deep as John, Bobby, Castiel and Sam's? Or are they building up to her freeing herself from control moment next week?

Edited May 12, 2017 by Wayward Son

[trxr4kids]

6 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

OH NO! What if Sam can't even be attracted to someone without them being killed? This is like teen horror film nonsense for Sam LOL

It's like Final Destination, poor Sam. ; )

[Mick Lady]

4 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

Because she's annoying and stupid and...well as I already stated, she talks too much. ;)

Amen! Highlight the stupid! Well, the talking gets me too. But Mick would say I've got her beat in that department!

[Geordiegirl1967]

26 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

If they were such experts at brainwashing why exactly did they not use this on Sam at the start of the season? Especially when it became obvious the torture wasn't working on him

They did.. Lady B convinced him they were lovers (eeewwwww)

[sarthaz]

I honestly didn't know who wrote this episode when it began, but it was such a steaming pile of shit that I knew halfway in that it had to be the duo.  WTF is their problem?  Seriously.

I don't know which is less believable:

1) Ketch leaving the boys in the bunker so they have plenty of time to escape like Dr. Evil instead of shooting them in the face

2) Lucifer not knowing Crowley isn't dead.  He's an archangel.

3) The boys having a PO Box

4) Searching every nook and cranny of the bunker instead of first checking the easiest, and most obvious place, just for a damn montage.

Fuck those two.  Seriously.  They ruin everything.

[Wayward Son]

Just now, Geordiegirl1967 said:

They did.. Lady B convinced him they were lovers (eeewwwww)

I agree totally ew! The shows consent issues have been a source of annoyance for me for a while now, but that's for another day haha.

 

Maybe I misunderstood but I took what happened to Mary and Sam as two different things. I thought with Sam she created a false scenario in his head to trick him into giving up information, but he was normal once he snapped out of it. Whereas with Mary they seemed to be going for she's become a full blown slave to their will.