S05.E21: Honor Thy Fathers

[BkWurm1]

21 minutes ago, themadman said:

I'm trying to wrap my head around something but just can't. So Oliver didn't want to be a murderer so he stopped killing people with arrows. But now half his team is happy to go around putting bullets into people - Diggle, Canary, Wild Dog all have shot people (I think Curtis too but I'm not 100% certain.) The kill count is off the charts. 

How is Oliver reconciling all this? 

Flesh wounds maybe?

They claim they are using tranq bullets a lot of the time but we can see the holes being made and some blood splatter as they hit  half the time.  

Edited May 11, 2017 by BkWurm1

[Midnight Lullaby]

There were good moments in this episode, like Thea watching the video and her final scene with Oliver, but I thought it was overall boring.

It was predictable where they were going with Robert and I didn't get Oliver's logic when he said he knew his dad was helping MM with the undertaking but now that he knows he accidentally killed a man and covered it up..how is that worse than planning to level half the city?

My main problem with the episode is that it lacked intensity..last week when Dig saved Felicity and Oliver I knew they were going to make it but that scene was intense! In this one Oliver and Dig almost get buried alive and their reaction is of mild annoyance..

The scene between Oliver and Chase was disappointing too because it was painfully obvious Chase was playing him..to everyone but the characters.

I couldn't care less about wild dog's story. I don't think he should get his daughter back if he plans to keep running around with guns at night and this back and forth is a horrible thing to do to a child. Also he was shocked the judge wanted to ask him questions? Of course if you get drunk watching your child then abandon her for months they want to ask questions genius!

[looptab]

Haven't read anyone's comments yet, but I just wanted to say that Stephen was doing some weird stuff with his eyes in some of his scenes. A la Laurel finding out Oliver is the Arrow-stuff, LOL. It's like there were too many people around him and he didn't know which way to look in order not to make eye contact, haha.

Also, didn't they blow the Applied Sciences Center up? 

Edited May 11, 2017 by looptab

[AudienceofOne]

8 hours ago, Lantern7 said:

Even with Adrian's "EXACTLY AS PLANNED!!!" smirk, I'm surprised we got a conclusion. 

Considering last week's EMP was supposed to - and should have - killed them , this remains the most opaque, convoluted plan ever conceived. I still don't know what it's actually supposed to be. Shouldn't I know the bad guy's end game at this point?

3 hours ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

It was predictable where they were going with Robert and I didn't get Oliver's logic when he said he knew his dad was helping MM with the undertaking but now that he knows he accidentally killed a man and covered it up..how is that worse than planning to level half the city?

Ah, but he felt bad about that. I don't get it either. Oliver watched his father murder somebody in front of him. Once again, these writers seem to have watched and rewatched very nuance of every scar, tattoo and mask-on-arrow-on-island but not the actual plot.

[Lady Calypso]

3 hours ago, looptab said:

Haven't read anyone's comments yet, but I just wanted to say that Stephen was doing some weird stuff with his eyes in some of his scenes. A la Laurel finding out Oliver is the Arrow-stuff, LOL. It's like there were too many people around him and he didn't know which way to look in order not to make eye contact, haha.

Also, didn't they blow the Applied Sciences Center up? 

[bijoux]

I didn't really notice it during the episode, but that's hella funny.

[Hiveminder]

That gif is hilarious. He looks like he's struggling to pass an eye exam  

Thea was kind of annoying this episode what with immediately thinking of Robert was a stone cold killer. I was particularly bothered by the comment about being raised by him dooming her even further into monster town, especially when what happened on that oddly cropped security footage was clearly a horrible accident.  But then she's always been a little judgemental, so it was in character. 

As was Oliver's reluctance to believe Robert would kill someone in cold blood. He did the same thing with Moira and Thea. At least he got over it in one episode this time. Although, to be fair to Oliver, he was totally right. Robert wasn't a cold blooded killer. He was just unwilling to suffer the consequences of his actions. I mean, I don't like Robert, but he wasn't a blood thirsty murderer. He was a guy who made poor decisions and who tried to use his money and resources to make unpleasant consequences go away, the same way he probably did for Oliver when he got in trouble for peeing on cop cars.

(I don't believe Oliver would see Robert killing the crew member in the pilot as cold blooded. I think he saw it as wrong, but driven by a desperate need to give Oliver a better chance to survive. Oliver probably shouldered the blame for that himself. Also, it was clearly shocking to him when it happened, was in the middle of a traumatic experience, and was followed by years of even more traumatic experiences. He's never mentioned it or told anyone about it, so maybe he decided it was just too much to process on top of everything else that's happened in his life and just doesn't acknowledge it happened. I can't blame him for that.)

Edited May 11, 2017 by Hiveminder

[bijoux]

How and why would SCPD have Robert's DNA? He's been dead and buried on the isla d for a decade. I welcome all theories.

I'm beginning to think EK and JH were playing Flip the Script in the car, and that's the take that ended up in the episode. I know it's not true, but it makes no less sense than both characters saying lines that should roghtly go to the other person. Put their conversation about Sampson the other way around and it suddenly makes sense.

[looptab]

11 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

 Also, apparently they are going with Oliver learned to fly a plane from watching his dad fly one.  I could have sworn he told Slade he did not know how to fly.  

And, when asked about it by Felicity, for some reason starts reminiscing about Hong Kong.

1 hour ago, Lady Calypso said:

LOL, I can't tell you how many times I rewound this. But I was thinking mainly of this, at 3:25. It's like he wants to look everyone in the eye but at the same time his NO EYE CONTACT rule kicks in.

Edited May 11, 2017 by looptab

[ladylaw99]

I have liked every episode from 5x16 on .  This episode had good moments but as a whole it was boring.  I have felt since 5x16 things were moving along at a good pace but last night's episode was a drag maybe I am still on a high from last week and am starting to feel Olicity withdrawal.  Who knows.

It wasn't a bad episode just boring and I agree there was no intensity. The fights were meh.  I wish Oliver and Chase's fight could have been more intense so that it wasn't so obvious that he was playing Oliver/team.

Loved the little Olicity moments, wish there was more Diggle and Felicity.  I am glad Thea is back, I wish she wasn't always so quick to judge Robert.  He wasn't the perfect dad but he is no where near MM killer level.  Her real dad is deceased, it is time to let go of the bad and move on and that goes for Oliver too.  I hope he continues to let go of his past and looks forward to the future.

Rene,I hope he didn't make the hearing because he was kidnapped.  These scenes felt so out of place in this episode.  I just don't care.  In the real world there is no way this hearing would have been scheduled this quickly and especially without a full analysis of his life.  I hope this is it for that story because I don't want kids on this show and I would rather they spend time on Diggle and Felicity, I am bias that way, Sorry.

Highlight, I didn't have to see Little Willy and that will always be a bonus.

[Primetimer]

As the fifth season approaches its finale, the show picks up some threads left over from its premise.

View the full article

[Cleanqueen]

I am confused with the whole "where is William" thing. So Samantha left without telling Oliver where she was going and nobody else knows his location? How was that a smart plan in the first place?

[Hiveminder]

That article mentioning the flashbacks being mostly boring made me realize why I'm so glad they're ending. Aside from being boring, they were disappointing. They could have done something kind of unique with this format and made two separate shows within a show, but instead it was basically Highlander slightly less swords. Their insistence on having the flashbacks connect so literally to the present day storyline really hampered them. 

Also, unless whatever Kovar does to Oliver is really horrific I'm not seeing how we get to pilot Oliver. Maybe someone should have given SA a heads up back then because he did a really good job of playing someone who has been alone on an island for a significant amount of time(even if we knew early on it wasn't the whole five years) and is having to readjust to society, but he apparently should have been playing someone who is pretending to have been alone. Are we supposed to believe the general stiff and stilted manner was just Oliver's idea of what a castaway should act like. That kind of takes away something from the first season for me. 

Although, maybe he misses Anatoly's boat the first time around and there's still a time jump. He still has to get those burn scars, and they were way too healed in the pilot to be so new. 

[benteen]

Quote

Ah, but he felt bad about that. I don't get it either. Oliver watched his father murder somebody in front of him. Once again, these writers seem to have watched and rewatched very nuance of every scar, tattoo and mask-on-arrow-on-island but not the actual plot.

The writers write their character to fit their plots.  They don't write their plots to fit their characters.  Example, Diggle raises a big fuss two or three weeks ago about Lyla imprisoning people without trial.  This week, he and Team Arrow are apparently doing the same thing to Chase.

Despite what Lance thinks, Rene shouldn't be raising his child as long as he continues to be a vigilante.

Also, Oliver and Thea's reaction to the video of their father...that was anything but a cold-blooded killing.  It looked liked the guy picked a fight with Robert first and it was an accident.  Robert's only crime was covering it up.

[SmallScreenDiva]

7 hours ago, themadman said:

I'm trying to wrap my head around something but just can't. So Oliver didn't want to be a murderer so he stopped killing people with arrows. But now half his team is happy to go around putting bullets into people - Diggle, Canary, Wild Dog all have shot people (I think Curtis too but I'm not 100% certain.) The kill count is off the charts. 

How is Oliver reconciling all this? 

They're supposedly using tranqs and rubber bullets. Supposedly. 

[leopardprint]

11 minutes ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

They're supposedly using tranqs and rubber bullets. Supposedly. 

I feel like the fact that they still use obviously placed squibs and blood spatter while saying this is a good metaphor for the show. 

Arrow, S5: Showy, obvious yet doesn't make sense. 

Edited May 11, 2017 by leopardprint

[tv echo]

Oliver keeps sparing Chase's life, but Chase is still "You're a killer" and Oliver's still "Am I a killer?"

Robert Queen murdered the third man in the lifeboat (I viewed that shooting as cold-blooded murder) in front of Oliver, and he conspired with Malcolm Merlyn to murder hundreds of residents in the Glades, but Oliver's still "My father was not a murderer."

Maybe Flashpoint erased that third man in the lifeboat.

I also found it unbelievable that Chase was able to find William's location when Felicity couldn't, regardless of how long Chase had been searching. Even assuming Samantha didn't hide herself and William that well, I don't buy that Chase then had the super computer skills to bury their location so deep that Felicity couldn't find them. Of course, we saw that he could reprogram a video arcade game. But the show is giving Chase way too many super skills, in addition to super fighting skills. Yes, they were both trained by Talia al Ghul, but Oliver was also trained by others as well (Ra's al Ghul, Yao Fei, Shado/Slade, Russian Bratva) and continued to self-train after he returned home. So Oliver had trained about five years longer than Chase.

I'm still hoping for a connection between Chase and Samantha as being the explanation for how Chase found William. Maybe she simply returned to her hometown and he knew her from before and was able to guess that. Or maybe she's in cahoots with Chase, and William has never been in any danger from him.  Another possibility is that Chase made a deal with Cayden James to find the Claytons.  We've already seen that Helix was able to track Chase when Felicity couldn't because of their massive surveillance database.  Otherwise, it's just a plot contrivance that Chase is so good at so many things.

I also found this episode to be filler and a bit tedious at times. But I did love the Oliver/Thea scenes, the Oliver/Felicity heart-to-heart, and the Felicity/Diggle scene. So overall, I'm giving this episode a cautious thumbs up.

Edited May 11, 2017 by tv echo

[insomniadreams88]

4 minutes ago, tv echo said:

I'm still hoping for a connection between Chase and Samantha as being the explanation for how Chase found William. Maybe she simply returned to her hometown and he knew her from before and was able to guess that. Or maybe she's in cahoots with Chase, and William has never been in any danger from him. 

It should be something like this. That Samantha was Chase's GF in the past and that she kept in contact with him because even though she apparently hid herself and William so well that Felicity can't find them, she also thought, "hey, talking to an ex and letting him know where I am while no one else does is a great idea! Also, I'm not going to stay up to date with anything happening in the city where my son's father lives just in case something's going on that could put us in danger because that would make sense. There's no way someone I know could be a crazy killer." 

[DeadZeus]

Hate it when shows do this.. Obviously Chase wanted to get caught which makes the whole fightscene and feeling of triumph pointless.. We all know he planned to get caught... Atleast try to make us feel like the fightscene meant something and Chase was fighting at full strength...

[statsgirl]

Isn't a murderer someone who deliberately kills another person?  When Oliver told Felicity that he watched the tape again and "my father's a murderer", you already knew that because Robert had killed the sailor in front of Oliver.  What he saw on the tape was an accidental killing.

Is there a reason why Oliver is wearing a US flag lapel pin every time he goes into mayor mode?  Is this a US thing?  I don't live in the US so I don't understand.

3 hours ago, ladylaw99 said:

Rene,I hope he didn't make the hearing because he was kidnapped.  These scenes felt so out of place in this episode.  I just don't care.  In the real world there is no way this hearing would have been scheduled this quickly and especially without a full analysis of his life.

If not an analysis of his life, certainly someone going to his place and doing an assessment of how he's doing and whether he can take care of Zoe.  Since Zoe was taken away because she was burned because Rene was too drunk to take care of her, on top of her mother being shot in her home, of course there's going to be a psychosocial assessment before she returns.  Every time Rene says "What does safe even mean?" or gets upset because they are not automatically returning Zoe to him or says she's better off without him, I think "yes, she is probably better off in that foster home where they take care of her" and why is this even a storyline?  It's making me less sympathetic to Rene, not more.

2 hours ago, Cleanqueen said:

I am confused with the whole "where is William" thing. So Samantha left without telling Oliver where she was going and nobody else knows his location? How was that a smart plan in the first place?

Maybe Samantha went to Chase for help in creating a new identity.  He's already done it for himself after all...

While I'm glad that Samanta an the spawn aren't around, I don't understand why she had to stay in hiding after DD was defeated.  The world doesn't know that Oliver is the Green Arrow so William wouldn't be in any  more danger than any other mayor's child is, and Samantha and William had a life and family an friends in Central City.  That's why she moved there, to be with her family.  Isn't it worse for William to have to live with a new identity than to be the son of Star City's mayor?

21 minutes ago, tv echo said:

.  Another possibility is that Chase made a deal with Cayden James to find the Claytons.  We've already seen that Helix was able to track Chase when Felicity couldn't because of their massive surveillance database.  Otherwise, it's just a plot contrivance that Chase is so good at so many things.

I like that. It continues the idea of Helix being both bad and good, because really  they've only been an asset for Felicity so far.

[calliope1975]

16 minutes ago, DeadZeus said:

Hate it when shows do this.. Obviously Chase wanted to get caught which makes the whole fightscene and feeling of triumph pointless.. We all know he planned to get caught... Atleast try to make us feel like the fightscene meant something and Chase was fighting at full strength...

It's also disappointing that no one on Team Arrow thought to question how easily Chase gave up. After all his ridiculous 10 steps ahead plaaanss, Oliver makes an offhand, unverified comment about his dad and Chase folds? And everyone is all - good job, Oliver!

Seriously? /sigh

[Bats27]

14 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

Thea lives!  It's about time she finally return.  Outside of original Team Arrow, Oliver/Thea's relationship has always been my favorite, and I enjoy the sibling chemistry between Stephen Amell and Willa Holland, and they really sell how much these two have gone through, and how much they need each other.  In some ways, their bond is unbreakable.  Enjoyed seeing Robert come back into play, and Jamey Sheridan did a great job in all of the videos.

That said, the episode wasn't bad, but kind of felt like filler and boring at times.  Despite everything they did, of course, it all ends up being part of Chase's grand plan, and he actually wanted to be capture, since that seems to be popular with every super villain of all time (see: Joker from The Dark Knight, Loki in The Avengers.)  Josh Segarra is still fantastic, but Chase's getting into impossible, all knowing territory now.  Although, to be fair, I guess Team Arrow can be pretty predictable.

So, after everything, Rene doesn't show up to his daughter's hearing?  Will he ended up being part of Chase's grand plan?  If not, then I'm really not sure why I'm suppose to care about all of this and why I'm suppose to like him, if he pulls a stunt like that.

Flashbacks consist of Oliver going back to the island and bonding more with Anatoly, only for a still living Kovar to pop out of nowhere.  I guess if you've got Dolph Lundgren, you might as well use him!

Warming up to Dinah, even if I wonder why no one finds it suspicious that she always happens to be assigned cases that involve Oliver.

Oh, hey, Cody Rhodes is back.  Briefly.

Hope it picks back up next episode.

The show has done this before.  In Season 2, Slade seemed to know/be able to do whatever the plot needed him to at that particular time.  He knew things that logically he shouldn't have known, and the show never bothered to explain how he found out about them.

[Hiveminder]

3 hours ago, tv echo said:

Oliver keeps sparing Chase's life, but Chase is still "You're a killer" and Oliver's still "Am I a killer?"

Robert Queen murdered the third man in the lifeboat (I viewed that shooting as cold-blooded murder) in front of Oliver, and he conspired with Malcolm Merlyn to murder hundreds of residents in the Glades, but Oliver's still "My father was not a murderer."

Yeah, he straight up killed the guy in the lifeboat (Although, I believe there were mitigating circumstances, so I wouldn't call it cold blooded.), but the season one finale flashbacks showed us that Robert was conspiring with Malcolm to blackmail or otherwise strong arm shady business people into not being shady as regards The Glades. (I guess? It wasn't too clear exactly what they were doing.)

When Malcolm was suddenly, "This isn't working. We're going to blow up the Glades instead, and I'm going to threaten you all into helping me. You remember that time you killed a guy, Bob?  Muahaha." is when Robert decided to go to China to find help stopping Malcolm. (I wonder if we'll ever find out who he was going to meet in China.)

 

Quote

Is there a reason why Oliver is wearing a US flag lapel pin every time he goes into mayor mode?  Is this a US thing?  I don't live in the US so I don't understand.

It is. Any public official who doesn't wear one runs the risk of being called unpatriotic. It's dumb. 

[johntfs]

15 hours ago, statsgirl said:

I'm pretty sure Chase has been working on looking for William since it was announced to the world last season that William is Oliver's son.  (See, Samantha, all that could have been avoided if you had just let Felicity know so she could protect him.) Chase plans ahead.

That's why the judge wouldn't wait for Rene. Time's a wastin'.

Just let Lance adopt Zoe. Then she'd get good parenting and Rene could visit her when he can take time away from shooting hs guns.

I don't know.  Lance has had two daughters killed out from under him (granted that one was resurrected).  I say let John and Lyla adopt her or serve as foster parents.  Figure they have a better safety record (Barry-based temporal sex changes notwithstanding).

[johntfs]

1 hour ago, statsgirl said:

The world doesn't know that Oliver is the Green Arrow so William wouldn't be in any  more danger than any other mayor's child is, and Samantha and William had a life and family an friends in Central City.

Also, Central City has three powerful superheroes (Flash, Kid Flash and Vibe) and the entire damn Central City Police Department to help protect Samantha and William.

[ohjoy]

4 hours ago, Cleanqueen said:

I am confused with the whole "where is William" thing. So Samantha left without telling Oliver where she was going and nobody else knows his location? How was that a smart plan in the first place?

IIRC from the video message Oliver made when he sent them away (God help me, why am I even attempting to remember that episode) -- Oliver decided that the best thing would be for Samantha and William to disappear from his life completely. He couldn't know where they were, because somehow that might increase the risk that someone else could find out and use them against him. William couldn't know who he was until he was allowed to watch that video message on his 18th birthday (or something like that). That was Oliver's only idea to protect the kid, was to basically erase himself from the kid's life, and apparently the only way to do that was to erase the kid from his life.

(I might have inferred a lot of that from my vague memory of the little bit I heard of Oliver speech -- I might not have everything correct because I eye-rolled so hard during that scene that my face hurt, and then promptly set about bleaching my brain after Felicity walked out the door.)

 

So Oliver doesn't know where the kid is and has never tried to look. I'm with the headcannon that Chase has known the kid's whereabout for probably as long as he's been gone, and likely just made it more difficult for Felicity to find him (especially if she doesn't know that Chase is the one burying the lede).

[leopardprint]

If all Samantha knew about her old friend Simon (?) is that he's some sort of government attorney, she might have asked for his help? 

[Sunshine]

I don't think the EMP was supposed to kill them either. It think the purpose was to destroy their systems which, at the very least, would slow them down in tracking him.

[Delphi]

I guess Chase was unaware that apparently the Arrow cave has the ability to fix itself immediately after an episode ends. 

[immortalfrieza]

7 hours ago, tv echo said:

Oliver keeps sparing Chase's life, but Chase is still "You're a killer" and Oliver's still "Am I a killer?"

I was thinking the EXACT same thing. Chase's entire plan especially parts of it like this rely entirely upon Oliver NOT being the murder loving psychopath Chase is trying to get Oliver to think he is, otherwise Oliver would have killed him and his minon (whatever happened to what's-her-name psycho chick anyway?) a long time ago. It's moments like this that makes it obvious that even Chase himself doesn't actually believe Oliver is really a killer, much less that he actually is one.

7 hours ago, tv echo said:

I also found it unbelievable that Chase was able to find William's location when Felicity couldn't, regardless of how long Chase had been searching. Even assuming Samantha didn't hide herself and William that well, I don't buy that Chase then had the super computer skills to bury their location so deep that Felicity couldn't find them. Of course, we saw that he could reprogram a video arcade game. But the show is giving Chase way too many super skills, in addition to super fighting skills. Yes, they were both trained by Talia al Ghul, but Oliver was also trained by others as well (Ra's al Ghul, Yao Fei, Shado/Slade, Russian Bratva) and continued to self-train after he returned home. So Oliver had trained about five years longer than Chase.

Don't forget that Oliver also has 5 years of actual combat experience including against those who use the same sort of fighting style and weapons. Really, with all the training and experience Oliver has Chase Vs Oliver should be like a Rank Amateur Vs. a Master Martial Artist, sure the Amateur might get in a lucky blow or 2, but the Master is going to win effortlessly. escalation of bad guys is something that has always been a given season to season on stuff like this and it never has made any sense.

[lemotomato]

I don't think Chase has actually ever beaten Oliver when they've gone one-on-one, though. He's been able to hold his own long enough to escape, but the only time he got the better of Oliver in a fight was because Talia tranq-ed him from behind. 

[BkWurm1]

From the Blastr review in the news thread:

Quote

The A-story plays this out with Chase sending Oliver the body of a man Ollie's father killed (somewhat accidentally) more than a decade ago, and security tape that proves he covered it up. It forced Oliver to grapple with the fact that his crusade was started to honor a man who was technically a murderer (trying to delegitimize Oliver's mission, a persistent theme of Chase's mission). Which hit home, but still, Oliver already knew his dad was a bad dude, right? How could this be *that much* of a shock?

It occurred to me that it would have been a nice twist if Chase thought he was revealing something that could disillusion Oliver about his dad and instead Oliver just sighs but is not shocked.  Let Chase be a little less omnipotent.  Then instead of having Oliver grappling with the shock that his dad had this bad thing in his past, they could have had him spend more time torn over preserving his father's legacy or letting go of the past and letting the truth come out.  They touched on it when Oliver's first thought was to do a press conference denying everything but that would have been a more believable conflict IMO than Oliver reeling from finding out his dad covered up an accidental death.  

Quote

Quote

Is there a reason why Oliver is wearing a US flag lapel pin every time he goes into mayor mode?  Is this a US thing?  I don't live in the US so I don't understand.

It is. Any public official who doesn't wear one runs the risk of being called unpatriotic. It's dumb. 

 

It started up right after 9-11 when patriotism was at a fever pitch.  

[Hiveminder]

I think the statement Oliver gave at the end of the episode was very well done, politically speaking. He didn't try to deny or cover anything up, didn't try to throw his father under the bus, and segued quickly into the we caught the Throwing Star Killer news. 

[leopardprint]

So, finally got around to watching this episode. 

Robert Queen IS a cold blooded killer...he killed someone in cold blood right in front of your dumb face. 

Oliver is going to use the mayor's office for another coverup? And have Dinah tamper with evidence? Someone needs to do a weekly roundup of all the ways that Oliver fails as a mayor like with Laurel and lawyering. 

I''m going to handwave that Samantha went totally off the grid and Chase found her by staking out every crayon store within a 100 mile radius. 

René is a truly awful person. He's an able bodied, functional adult who's her only remaining parent and he's abandoning her because he doesn't want to have a difficult conversation with her and run around in a hockey mask. So selfish. He left his daughter all alone at that hearing!(OMG is Lance going to adopt Zoe? Is that where they are headed with this?)

One day, I would like Felicity to just say, "You know what Oliver, you're right," instead of the umpteenth pep talk.

I kind of wish that Chase had Shado's Hood so Oliver could get it back. :( 

I spoke too soon! Oliver did not use the office to cover up RQ's murder. What a low bar! 

I think the episode, barring the Oliver/Thea scenes was pretty boring however I think 518 (Diggle) 519/520 (Felicity), 521 (Thea) work nicely as a solid arc of focusing on Oliver's relationships with all the most important people in his life which has been sorely lacking this season. 

I'm also going to handwave that ARGUS is holding Chase until trial...not to indefinitely hold him like BossHacker who's name I forgot. 

Edited May 12, 2017 by leopardprint

[benteen]

40 minutes ago, leopardprint said:

Oliver is going to use the mayor's office for another coverup? And have Dinah tamper with evidence? Someone needs to do a weekly roundup of all the ways that Oliver fails as a mayor like with Laurel and lawyering. 

 

I spoke too soon! Oliver did not use the office to cover up RQ's murder. What a low bar! 

He might not have but a weekly roundup of all the ways Oliver has failed as a mayor is a must have.  My favorites so far have been how unprepared he looks at almost every press conference and his "amazing" gun control bill never bothered to explain how it works.

[KirkB]

Am I wrong in thinking Felicity didn't start looking for William until (we know) after Chase had already found him? Because if that's the case, Chase could have had a hand in hiding/erasing the information about William's whereabouts, considering he's been at this a while. Not to mention he was apparently in the lair at one point (since he planted the EMP), so he presumably had access to their computers and could have done something to screw up Felicity's access.

It's been a long time since I saw the pilot, but I swear the Oliver I remember from back then had longer hair and more beard than the Oliver who got dropped off back on Lian Yu by Anatoli (speaking of which, I hope Anatoli knows how to fly, since it was Oliver who flew them there). So I'm guessing Oliver misses his ride thanks to Kovar. On that note though, while I can accept Kovar knowing about Lian Yu (it being a big criminal enterprise location and all), how the hell did he know Oliver and Anatoli were going there at all, let alone be able to be there waiting for him? BTW, does any have an idea how far into the 'five years in hell' Oliver is supposed to be at that point? It would give us a better idea of how much island alone time he actually has to look forward to.

I still don't care about Rene. I feel bad for his daughter I suppose, but that's about it.

Thea's back!!!!

[statsgirl]

I like the idea that Chase erased Samantha and William's digital print after he found them because it explains why Felicity couldn't. Even better, I like the idea that Chase helped them disappear. That would serve both Oliver and Samantha right.

10 hours ago, johntfs said:

Also, Central City has three powerful superheroes (Flash, Kid Flash and Vibe) and the entire damn Central City Police Department to help protect Samantha and William.

Kid Flash and Vibe might help but The Flash helps only himself and those he's in love with.

10 hours ago, Hiveminder said:

It is. Any public official who doesn't wear one runs the risk of being called unpatriotic. It's dumb. 

3 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

It started up right after 9-11 when patriotism was at a fever pitch.  

Thanks. It feels a little Gilead-like but if it started after 9-11 that explains it.

[BkWurm1]

37 minutes ago, KirkB said:

Am I wrong in thinking Felicity didn't start looking for William until (we know) after Chase had already found him? Because if that's the case, Chase could have had a hand in hiding/erasing the information about William's whereabouts, considering he's been at this a while. Not to mention he was apparently in the lair at one point (since he planted the EMP), so he presumably had access to their computers and could have done something to screw up Felicity's access.

It's been a long time since I saw the pilot, but I swear the Oliver I remember from back then had longer hair and more beard than the Oliver who got dropped off back on Lian Yu by Anatoli (speaking of which, I hope Anatoli knows how to fly, since it was Oliver who flew them there). So I'm guessing Oliver misses his ride thanks to Kovar. On that note though, while I can accept Kovar knowing about Lian Yu (it being a big criminal enterprise location and all), how the hell did he know Oliver and Anatoli were going there at all, let alone be able to be there waiting for him? BTW, does any have an idea how far into the 'five years in hell' Oliver is supposed to be at that point? It would give us a better idea of how much island alone time he actually has to look forward to.

I still don't care about Rene. I feel bad for his daughter I suppose, but that's about it.

Thea's back!!!!

Yes, Felicity would have only started looking for William after they got out of the bunker and were patched up at ARGUS.  So most certainly after Chase found William.  

As for Oliver's hair, it might be a red herring but Anatoly did give him some fake hair and beard stuff in the backpack.  So maybe Oliver makes his ship in two days and maybe he gets stuck on the island another six months or longer.  Really, he could have zipped through his previous adventures that we saw in seasons four and five flashbacks in a few months. So who knows? 

My theory on how Kovar knows is that he had a mole in the Bratva tell him of their plans.   

Quote

Thanks. It feels a little Gilead-like 

Hmm.  Not getting the reference.  Help?  

[KirkB]

7 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

Yes, Felicity would have only started looking for William after they got out of the bunker and were patched up at ARGUS.  So most certainly after Chase found William.  

Thanks. A lot of people were questioning Chase's ability to find William when Felicity couldn't. My initial point (which I actually think I forgot to make) was that by the time Felicity even knew there was a reason to look for him, let alone actually start searching, he could have been hidden by Chase, while Chase would only have had to find him when he was hidden by Samantha.

 

11 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

My theory on how Kovar knows is that he had a mole in the Bratva tell him of their plans.

That...makes a lot of sense, actually. I withdraw my question.

[leopardprint]

23 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

Hmm.  Not getting the reference.  Help?  

Gilead is the dystopian theocracy in The Handmaid's Tale....which is what Oliver's ongoing terrible mayoring will lead Star City to. (keepin' it on topic)

22 MINUTES AGO, BKWURM1 SAID:

Yes, Felicity would have only started looking for William after they got out of the bunker and were patched up at ARGUS. So most certainly after Chase found William. 

I actually think Felicity should keep looking until she finds something.  

Edited May 12, 2017 by leopardprint

[BkWurm1]

26 minutes ago, KirkB said:

Thanks. A lot of people were questioning Chase's ability to find William when Felicity couldn't. My initial point (which I actually think I forgot to make) was that by the time Felicity even knew there was a reason to look for him, let alone actually start searching, he could have been hidden by Chase, while Chase would only have had to find him when he was hidden by Samantha

That fits my head canon as well.  :D

 

17 minutes ago, leopardprint said:

I actually think Felicity should keep looking until she finds something.

But would she?  Would Oliver want her to?  This is part of the problem with Samantha just going into hiding.  There's no way for them to check to see if they are ok without learning where they are which if they idea was if Oliver didn't know where they were, he could never be forced to give up their location, well, that plan's shot and they'd have to move again.  If Oliver had let Felicity in on the discussion they could have at least arranged some protocols for checking in.   

[leopardprint]

5 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

But would she?  Would Oliver want her to?  This is part of the problem with Samantha just going into hiding.  There's no way for them to check to see if they are ok without learning where they are which if they idea was if Oliver didn't know where they were, he could never be forced to give up their location, well, that plan's shot and they'd have to move again.  If Oliver had let Felicity in on the discussion they could have at least arranged some protocols for checking in.   

I forgot that Arrow will never admit that anything Oliver did with the BMD was wrong. My apologies. (if that's presumptuous...still hilarious)

It was a stupid plan because Merlyn, who outright threatened Oliver, knows the kid exists and has infinite resources to find them and they are relying on Samantha (?!) to hide them. Oliver could have admitted he was wrong to send them away like that and asked Felicity to keep looking. 

[JamieLynn832002]

15 hours ago, Cleanqueen said:

I am confused with the whole "where is William" thing. So Samantha left without telling Oliver where she was going and nobody else knows his location? How was that a smart plan in the first place?

Oliver said when making the video for William that he'd asked Samantha to move and not tell anyone, including him, where. I'm assuming the thought was that if they got in trouble, Samantha still knows where Oliver is to get help but yes, stupid plan.

ETA: Sorry, somehow missed that @RandomMe had already pretty much addressed this.

Edited May 12, 2017 by JamieLynn832002
Add something.

[johntfs]

3 hours ago, statsgirl said:

Kid Flash and Vibe might help but The Flash helps only himself and those he's in love with.

Felicity would ask him nicely.  And remind him how much arrows to the legs can hurt.

[Chyromaniac]

On 5/10/2017 at 8:44 PM, BkWurm1 said:

The family court moves fast in Starling City.  

Well, Oliver and company have likely spent the last five years aerating the local dead beat dad population...

[tv echo]

Oliver's press conference was nice... but he was still covering up for his father. He admitted the truth about his father's role in the death of the councilman (which really looked accidental) and then rhapsodized about how his father sacrificed himself so that his son could live. However, Oliver conveniently neglected to mention that his father deliberately killed that third man in the lifeboat. That guy's family probably thinks he drowned when The Queen's Gambit went down. They're owed some justice.

Edited May 12, 2017 by tv echo

[Hiveminder]

32 minutes ago, tv echo said:

Oliver's press conference was nice... but he was still covering up for his father. He admitted the truth about his father's role in the death of the councilman (which really looked accidental) and then rhapsodized about how his father sacrificed himself so that his son could live. However, Oliver conveniently neglected to mention that his father deliberately killed that third man in the lifeboat. That guy's family probably thinks he drowned when The Queen's Gambit went down. They're owed some justice.

I wouldn't cal it rhapsodizing. It was one sentence. The third man in the lifeboat is a complicated issue. On the one hand, his family does deserve to know what happened to him. On the other hand, what good does it do for them to learn all these years later that instead of dieing in a horrible accident there was a possibility that he could have survived if he hadn't been murdered by someone who will never have to pay for that. Justice is impossible for them. 

[tv echo]

There's monetary compensation. I doubt that guy's family was wealthy like the Queen family. Maybe he was their primary or sole support. The point it, Oliver was still covering up for his father.

Practically speaking, the EPs/writers probably just forgot about him.

Edited May 12, 2017 by tv echo

[Hiveminder]

Just now, tv echo said:

There's monetary compensation. I doubt that guy's family was wealthy like the Queen family. Maybe he was their primary or sole support. The point it, Oliver was still covering up for his father.

At this point, Oliver doesn't have the money to give them. Thea probably does. That might be fitting since its Malcolm's money, and he blew up the boat in the first place. 

I still don't know if it's kind to cause his family all new emotional trauma when they've had ten years to deal with how they thought their loved one died. 

[leopardprint]

36 minutes ago, Hiveminder said:

I still don't know if it's kind to cause his family all new emotional trauma when they've had ten years to deal with how they thought their loved one died. 

It would have been interesting if Chase was related to this dude and somehow found out RQ killed him for Oliver. However, I agree there's no point to telling his family because they have moved on and Oliver wasn't responsible for it.

I will say the inconsistent handling of killing on this show really bothers me. 

Oliver can't kill Chase because "OMG, killing is the worst thing ever, my poor battered soul can't take it" but then he's totally indifferent regarding killing Billy (he should feel guilty about it even if it was a setup) and somehow they built this episode's entire storyline about him discovering his father's dark past while ignoring that he shot someone right in front of him in the freaking pilot and he himself has said his father wasn't a good man. I'm sure we could crowdsource them a Netflix subscription. Show, watch yourself! 

Edited May 12, 2017 by leopardprint