S05.E10: Darkroom

[Bannon]

20 minutes ago, SlovakPrincess said:

I'm gonna go nuts if I have to see that same boring hairstyle on Paige in one more scene ... 

I'm sort of pleased that they have to keeping dating Deirdre and Zen Tai Chi Man for a while longer.  I actually find them amusing.

I like Stan's new asset.  I was happy for her when she showed off her pretty new teeth and seemed so happy.

Honestly, this show is becoming a parody of itself when they have a gratuitous scene of Oleg and his parents sadly, silently eating dinner.  OMG WE GET IT!  THEY'RE MISERABLE, FUCKING ENOUGH NOW!

I admit to giggling during that scene.

47 minutes ago, White Sheep said:

We do know one thing for sure from this season. After, the real marriage of P&E.  We know whatever happen to the Jennings or where ever they end up it going to be as whole family.  

What if pastor Tim sees this is a KGB plan from the get go.  Relazies he playing ball with killers and true believers in communism.  People who do not believe in the God and want to kill him off 105%.  And replace him with godless communism.   Next stop FBI HQ!     

What if Pastor Tim dies in a robbery gone wrong, eaten by a lion in Africa, killed by commie rebels in Latin America, a car accident, drops over from heart attack, or dies in a freak hair Solon explosion.    

Would Paige believe her parents and the KGB was innocent?  Would P&E believe it was just an accident?   

Paige's eyebrows would likely bury the needle on a seismograph somewhere in California.....

[SlovakPrincess]

Really, the somber wedding ceremony in the dark basement was the feel-good scene of the Season so far.  

[MisterBluxom]

34 minutes ago, SlovakPrincess said:

I'm gonna go nuts if I have to see that same boring hairstyle on Paige in one more scene ... 

I'm sort of pleased that they have to keeping dating Deirdre and Zen Tai Chi Man for a while longer.  I actually find them amusing.

I like Stan's new asset.  I was happy for her when she showed off her pretty new teeth and seemed so happy.

Honestly, this show is becoming a parody of itself when they have a gratuitous scene of Oleg and his parents sadly, silently eating dinner.  OMG WE GET IT!  THEY'RE MISERABLE, FUCKING ENOUGH NOW!

 

I was mildly amused by Pastor Tim telling Paige (insincerely) "you're gonna do great in life" ... but mostly because I imagined him immediately running to his office to scribble in his diary: "downtrodden dishrag of a girl ... destined for failure.  Sad!"    

I must admit to being curious what people think Pastor Dim should tell Paige given that he truly feels she will be messed up for life.

I'd like to ask people here who are willing to respond, if you were a pastor and you honestly believed that Paige is FFL (Failed Forever in her Life), and she started a conversation with you and asked you what you thought of her future, what would you tell her?

Would you do what PD did and lie to her in order to make her feel better about herself? Or would you tell her the truth and hope that she may figure out a way to go forward in her life - even though you can't figure out any way for her to go forward in her life and succeed?

That is the question. As a pastor, even if you thought someone was beyond help and beyond redemption and that it was hopeless for them. Hopeless they could ever find a way to a happy life or a successful life, what would you tell them? Would it be better to lie to them and try to make them feel good? Or would it be better for you to tell them the truth? As a pastor, how can you look someone in the eye and tell them, "I'm sorry Paige. But the truth is that I just think it's impossible for you to ever find any happiness in your life. You are just beyond my help."

How can PD resolve his conversation with Paige and with his God? Doesn't he have a duty to Paige (and to his religion and to God) to help Paige find a way to salvation? Seems like an impossible kind of position. Or maybe PD is just not bright enough to figure this out?

P.S. "FFL" is a fairly well-known Internet abbreviation that means something similar to "Failed Forever in Life". But it's more common meaning is quite vulgar and uses curse words and I didn't feel like it would be appropriate to define its traditional meaning in case any young people of Paige's age were reading.

Edited May 12, 2017 by MissBluxom

[Bannon]

2 minutes ago, MissBluxom said:

I must admit to being curious what people think Pastor Dim should tell Paige given that he truly feels she will be messed up for life.

I'd like to ask people here who are willing to respond, if you were a pastor and you honestly believed that Paige is FFL (Failed Forever in her Life), and she started a conversation with you and asked you what you thought of her future, what would you tell her?

Would you do what PD did and lie to her in order to make her feel better about herself? Or would you tell her the truth and hope that she may figure out a way to go forward in her life - even though you can't figure out any way for her to go forward in her life and succeed?

That is the question. As a pastor, even if you thought someone was beyond help and beyond redemption and that it was hopeless for them. Hopeless they could ever find a way to a happy life or a successful life, what would you tell them? Would it be better to lie to them and try to make them feel good? Or would it be better for you to tell them the truth? As a pastor, how can you look someone in the eye and tell them, "I'm sorry Paige. But the truth is that I just think it's impossible for you to ever find any happiness in your life. You are just beyond my help."

How can PD resolve his conversation with Paige with his God? Doesn't he have a duty to Paige (and to his religion and to God) to help Paige find a way to salvation? Seems like an impossible kind of position. Or maybe PD is just not bright enough to figure this out?

Well, I woulda' picked up the phone and called the FBI when Paige informed me that her parents were enlisting her into a dangerous criminal conspiracy. If she hates me for life, oh, well, that's better than having the poor child in a prison cell for years!  

[MisterBluxom]

Just now, Bannon said:

Well, I woulda' picked up the phone and called the FBI when Paige informed me that her parents were enlisting her into a dangerous criminal conspiracy. If she hates me for life, oh, well, that's better than having the poor child in a prison cell for years!  

Yes. I can see that is a reasonable reaction. No doubt about it.

[sistermagpie]

28 minutes ago, SlovakPrincess said:

Really, the somber wedding ceremony in the dark basement was the feel-good scene of the Season so far.  

Occurred to me after the ep that there were 2 dark rooms.

56 minutes ago, SlovakPrincess said:

I was mildly amused by Pastor Tim telling Paige (insincerely) "you're gonna do great in life" ... but mostly because I imagined him immediately running to his office to scribble in his diary: "downtrodden dishrag of a girl ... destined for failure.  Sad!"    

LOL! I kind of love the idea that Pastor Tim has now just accepted that this family is screwed up way beyond his abilities and he'll just tell her she's doing great and get back to his sermon-writing.

56 minutes ago, SlovakPrincess said:

I'm gonna go nuts if I have to see that same boring hairstyle on Paige in one more scene ... 

Have to admire how committed she is to it. I mean, it's the 80s. If she just made it a higher ponytail it would be pretty normal. But every day when she does her hair she makes a point of putting the ponytail at the nape of her neck with the hair half covering her ears for maximum drabness. She wouldn't want her ponytail to give a dishonest impression of happiness by being too bouncy or having a colorful rubber band.

Edited May 12, 2017 by sistermagpie

[crgirl412]

On 5/11/2017 at 8:33 PM, White Sheep said:

We do know one thing for sure from this season. After, the real marriage of P&E.  We know whatever happen to the Jennings or where ever they end up it going to be as whole family.  

What if pastor Tim sees this is a KGB plan from the get go.  Relazies he playing ball with killers and true believers in communism.  People who do not believe in the God and want to kill him off 105%.  And replace him with godless communism.   Next stop FBI HQ!     

What if Pastor Tim dies in a robbery gone wrong, eaten by a lion in Africa, killed by commie rebels in Latin America, a car accident, drops over from heart attack, or dies in a freak hair Solon explosion.    

Would Paige believe her parents and the KGB was innocent?  Would P&E believe it was just an accident?   

I don't think Pastor Tim would realize it wasn't a REAL offer to need his services working with the poor and needy in another country. They will be able to create a very believable, appealing scenario for him.  Look how they managed to create "Martha & Clark" from nothing.  I think if he died P & E would think it was the Centre.  I do not think they should have breathed a word about sending him away since Paige will think that too but will be furious.  

Edited May 13, 2017 by crgirl412

[SlovakPrincess]

I guess I don't really buy that Pastor Tim would believe she is beyond all hope.  And if he did, he's a pretty shitty Pastor. He doesn't even know (and Paige doesn't yet know) that she's not going to have a choice in being a secret agent later in life.  He just thinks she is covering for her parents' lies about who they are and what they do ... and quite frankly, so is he right now.  Yes, it's worse for her because they're her parents, but I think it's ludicrous for him to claim that this worse than someone suffering sexual abuse.   People manage to find happiness after suffering terrible abuse, or growing up knowing their parents were horrific criminals.

Now, if he knew Paige is doomed to be a miserable and not very good secret agent in the future ... I could kinda see it.  In that case, I guess he could counsel her to hold onto her faith in God and turn herself in to avoid doing things that might keep her out of Heaven (murdering, aiding murder ... that kinda thing).   

I dunno.  Pastor Tim's diary was very melodramatic.  The guy is an idiot.  

[MisterBluxom]

4 minutes ago, SlovakPrincess said:

I guess I don't really buy that Pastor Tim would believe she is beyond all hope.  And if he did, he's a pretty shitty Pastor. He doesn't even know (and Paige doesn't yet know) that she's not going to have a choice in being a secret agent later in life.  He just thinks she is covering for her parents' lies about who they are and what they do ... and quite frankly, so is he right now.  Yes, it's worse for her because they're her parents, but I think it's ludicrous for him to claim that this worse than someone suffering sexual abuse.   People manage to find happiness after suffering terrible abuse, or growing up knowing their parents were horrific criminals.

Now, if he knew Paige is doomed to be a miserable and not very good secret agent in the future ... I could kinda see it.  In that case, I guess he could counsel her to hold onto her faith in God and turn herself in to avoid doing things that might keep her out of Heaven (murdering, aiding murder ... that kinda thing).   

I dunno.  Pastor Tim's diary was very melodramatic.  The guy is an idiot.  

The guy is an idiot.

As far as I'm concerned, that provides a very simple and very accurate solution to this entire dilemma.

Well said!

[Ellaria]

Pastor Tim is incredibly naive. Consider this statement: he knows that they know that he knows that they are spies. Most savvy adults would not wait around for the spies to become completely paranoid and decide that you were better off in a suitcase. But PT just keeps tempting fate. What is he hoping for? A few more dinner invitations. Did he forget about Phillip's late night visit?

[Bretton]

Some great thoughts expressed on Vox re: this episode:
https://www.vox.com/culture/2017/5/9/15599144/the-americans-episode-10-recap-darkroom-wedding

[Eulipian 5k]

Ewwps Miss Bluxom, Tantric sex is not part of the show and Tai Chi Ben is not teaching it to Liz. The joke was in reference to your comment on the season being like foreplay with no orgasm. Sting is rumored to have said T/S led to  4 hr orgasms. He debunks this, see der Google. But his song "Russians" was used on the show in Season 1 ads. (So the moderator can't say we're off topic)

[MisterBluxom]

1 minute ago, Eulipian 5k said:

Ewwps Miss Bluxom, Tantric sex is not part of the show and Tai Chi Ben is not teaching it to Liz. The joke was in reference to your comment on the season being like foreplay with no orgasm. Sting is rumored to have said T/S led to  4 hr orgasms. He debunks this, see der Google. But his song "Russians" was used on the show in Season 1 ads. (So the moderator can't say we're off topic)

Oops. I did not realize. Thank you for helping with that.

[NitneLiun]

9 hours ago, Umbelina said:

That's another thing.  We endure years of boring Pastor Tim and his slightly smarter wife, and now, voila!  All gone?

The fuck show?

The writers are doing us a favor. Do you really want to see the insufferable Pastor Tim, his slightly less insufferable wife and his ridiculous wig any more than you have to?

[VCRTracking]

I admit to actually "squeeing" when Phillip said he wanted to get married to Elizabeth for real. I spent the half hour up til then thinking "God, how many lives can they ruin?"(concerning Pasha) and now I get emotional at their wedding! It was a very beautiful ceremony and I have to think Matthew and Kerri being together IRL added to their performances.

The final scene was a different but just as cool. Them casually turning their basement into a darkroom with Paige present and them all looking at photos of Pastor Tim's diaries with that song playing. Very well done.

"I don't want Stan to be like Martha." Don't worry Phillip, Stan is probably going to end up worse but it won't be your fault.

I missed the Rezidentura. Loved seeing it again.

Edited May 12, 2017 by VCRTracking

[millennium]

On 5/9/2017 at 11:21 PM, benteen said:

The last 20 minutes was good.  Loved the brief flashback and the wedding was indeed beautiful.  But as far as I’m concerned, Season 5 has not gotten going and any plot that they have has slowed to an absolute crawl.  Season 5 of The Americans is reminded me of Season 5 of Justified, which was the weakest of the series.  On the plus side, that means The Americans should have a great final season. 

Another dismal episode, most of it wrapped around the obnoxious Paige.

Tired of these mood pieces masquerading as drama.

I found the marriage ceremony repellent.  Standing before God, professing love, when the happy couple just murdered an innocent man a couple weeks ago.

Best part of the episode: the Fotomat shout-out.

On 5/10/2017 at 1:09 AM, Addlepated said:

Of all the Bauhaus songs they could have chosen for that ending scene (and I love that they played Bauhaus at all!), this was an amazing one.

I don't see any way they could have worked in "Bela Lugosi's Dead."

Edited May 12, 2017 by millennium

[millennium]

On 5/10/2017 at 10:22 AM, whiporee said:

 

On an over-reaching point, I think the runners have forgotten the central question of this show -- will these two wacky spies get caught?  

Probably not.  Philip and Elizabeth are out there murdering people, body-snatching, wheat-thieving and what have you, meanwhile the FBI is holding seminars on how to get film out of a condom without destroying it.  

How did we win the Cold War again?

[Ina123]

9 hours ago, MissBluxom said:

 

How can PD resolve his conversation with Paige and with his God? Doesn't he have a duty to Paige (and to his religion and to God) to help Paige find a way to salvation? Seems like an impossible kind of position. Or maybe PD is just not bright enough to figure this out

Supposedly Paige is already saved. Otherwise she would not have been Baptized. At least that'sthe normal progression in Protestant churches I know. Just another reason I don'thave much respect for Pastor Tim (or rather see the writers as not having much experience with the subject matter). He never really tells her to turn her problems over to God. In his diary he doesn'teven ask God for help with her. In reality, to show him as being a caring pastor there would be a scene of him praying for answers in how to help Paige. Oh, what am I thinking? This is TV. They never get Protestant Christanty right unless it's a preacher gone bad. Of course, they have to worry about what the viewing public will bear. <off soapbox>

[stagmania]

18 hours ago, qtpye said:

I do think Elizabeth cares deeply for Phillip and respects him greatly as a partner and a father to her children.  However, I do not believe she has an all consuming love for him the way he has for her.  I think I am supposed to be believing, that she finally loves him and really wants to be married to him, but I just do not.  The truth is if they were released from the KGB somehow (this is an hypothetical scenario) and could live their lives normally, I think she would eventually leave him.  A lot of people hate E for not loving Phillip enough, but there is no crime in just not being into someone that way.  I think she has a right to her emotions and there is nothing wrong with not being in love with the man you were forced to marry, even if he is very good to you.

I actually started rewatching season 1 the other night, and I have to disagree with this. Elizabeth made a choice to be with Philip for real, and then fought for it. I had forgotten how many times in that first season they almost fell apart, and every time, Elizabeth decided not to let it go-she dug deep to try to make him understand her and her choices, pleaded with him not to give up, asked him to come home and make it real with her, forgave him for lying to her about Irina. She didn't have to do any of that, and Philip wasn't exactly giving her encouragement most of the time (because he was so emotionally hurt himself). Gregory was right there offering her an uncomplicated love that she could control completely. Instead, she went all in on messy and difficult, and I think that speaks volumes about her feelings. 

I do think there is a difference, though, in their capacity to express love to one another. Elizabeth is more emotionally remote; it is very difficult for her to find the words to express how she's feeling and being vulnerable in that way scares her (the scene in season 1 where she haltingly tells him she wants it to be real made me want to hug her, she looked like she was going to expire from the effort to get the words out). She often responds to Philip's gestures and words of love with no more than an intense look, a squeezed hand, or a hug-and I think that can give the impression that she doesn't feel the way he does. But I think it's really just all she's capable of in those moments. 

16 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

The fact, is Elizabeth IS into him. She just thinks she shouldn't put those sort of feelings above her job. Her own mother made it clear that she believed that marriage and motherhood should be sacrificed without a thought to the Cause. Elizabeth had to either internalize that or see herself as unloved. She chose the latter...and then fell in love with the guy who didn't do that.

Yes, absolutely this. Elizabeth has been molded by her experiences and it comes across very strongly in her limitations within a romantic relationship. She's a kind of woman that I know well from real life, but who is very rarely represented in pop culture. That's part of why I appreciate her character so much, and that the show isn't willing to soften her edges just to make her more likable.

14 hours ago, taurusrose said:

They aren't monsters to their children...yet.  It will be interesting to see which way that shoe drops if/when their true activities are ever revealed. 

There has been absolutely no indication that Philip and Elizabeth would ever turn on their children. 

9 hours ago, Ellaria Sand said:

Pastor Tim is incredibly naive. Consider this statement: he knows that they know that he knows that they are spies. Most savvy adults would not wait around for the spies to become completely paranoid and decide that you were better off in a suitcase. But PT just keeps tempting fate. What is he hoping for? A few more dinner invitations. Did he forget about Phillip's late night visit?

Yeah, Pastor Tim is kind of an egomaniac. He is under the delusion that he understands their family situation better than any of them do, and that he is in control. I guess because he thinks he has his god on his side?

Edited May 12, 2017 by stagmania

[MisterBluxom]

Sorry. Posted by mistake.

[dubbel zout]

11 hours ago, SlovakPrincess said:

I guess I don't really buy that Pastor Tim would believe she is beyond all hope.  And if he did, he's a pretty shitty Pastor.

Exactly! The promise of salvation is supposed to be eternal. I get that he might have a lot of regret for what he thinks her life might become, but nothing is written in stone, and he can't predict the future.

[shura]

4 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

Father Tim is the only optimism in Paige's life.  That is, since she dumped her boyfriend.

Yes, remember how visibly happy and optimistic she was when she was with Matthew? Me neither.

[Clanstarling]

7 hours ago, NitneLiun said:

The writers are doing us a favor. Do you really want to see the insufferable Pastor Tim, his slightly less insufferable wife and his ridiculous wig any more than you have to?

They're pretty equal on my insufferability scale. Though the wig does give him a leading edge.

5 hours ago, millennium said:

How did we win the Cold War again?

We didn't. The Soviet Union collapsed and we "won" by default.

[MisterBluxom]

3 hours ago, Ina123 said:

Supposedly Paige is already saved. Otherwise she would not have been Baptized. At least that'sthe normal progression in Protestant churches I know. Just another reason I don'thave much respect for Pastor Tim (or rather see the writers as not having much experience with the subject matter). He never really tells her to turn her problems over to God. In his diary he doesn'teven ask God for help with her. In reality, to show him as being a caring pastor there would be a scene of him praying for answers in how to help Paige. Oh, what am I thinking? This is TV. They never get Protestant Christanty right unless it's a preacher gone bad. Of course, they have to worry about what the viewing public will bear. <off soapbox>

I thank you.  That is a very good post and IMHO, very well answered. Nice response!

Edited May 12, 2017 by MissBluxom

[Bannon]

Looking at the preview,

Spoiler

I'm wondering if the writers have the courage to make Liz fully repellant, with her killing a woman despite there being substantial doubt that she actually was a Nazi collaborator. 

 

That actually may be an interesting way to go, especially if Phil's reaction to that repellant behavior is written well. It could even lead to some reclamation of the trainwreck that has become the Paige character, if she is made aware of her mother's behavior. I've been critical of how the writers have made E&P the major nemesis to the American life insurance industry,  but it would be better to have some consequences for our homicidal couple's murderous mayhem, beyond some regret expressed about sending innocent midge-boy to the Great Bug Zapper in the Sky.

Hey, I'm trying to remain hopeful that the writers will improve the viewing experience in the remaining time for this show, because I still want to see how it turns out, after sticking with it for this many years.

[Chaos Theory]

3 hours ago, stagmania said:

I actually started rewatching season 1 the other night, and I have to disagree with this. Elizabeth made a choice to be with Philip for real, and then fought for it. I had forgotten how many times in that first season they almost fell apart, and every time, Elizabeth decided not to let it go-she dug deep to try to make him understand her and her choices, pleaded with him not to give up, asked him to come home and make it real with her, forgave him for lying to her about Irina. She didn't have to do any of that, and Philip wasn't exactly giving her encouragement most of the time (because he was so emotionally hurt himself). Gregory was right there offering her an uncomplicated love that she could control completely. Instead, she went all in on messy and difficult, and I think that speaks volumes about her feelings. 

I do think there is a difference, though, in their capacity to express love to one another. Elizabeth is more emotionally remote; it is very difficult for her to find the words to express how she's feeling and being vulnerable in that way scares her (the scene in season 1 where she haltingly tells him she wants it to be real made me want to hug her, she looked like she was going to expire from the effort to get the words out). She often responds to Philip's gestures and words of love with no more than an intense look, a squeezed hand, or a hug-and I think that can give the impression that she doesn't feel the way he does. But I think it's really just all she's capable of in those moments. 

Yes, absolutely this. Elizabeth has been molded by her experiences and it comes across very strongly in her limitations within a romantic relationship. She's a kind of woman that I know well from real life, but who is very rarely represented in pop culture. That's part of why I appreciate her character so much, and that the show isn't willing to soften her edges just to make her more likable.

There has been absolutely no indication that Philip and Elizabeth would ever turn on their children. 

Yeah, Pastor Tim is kind of an egomaniac. He is under the delusion that he understands their family situation better than any of them do, and that he is in control. I guess because he thinks he has his god on his side?

The one thing P&E would never ever ever do is turn on their kids.  Which is why I think The finale this season will ultimately involve Paige doing something awful that will shock even Elizabeth.  

Despite their shaky parenting P&E love their kids and do want what is best for them.  The major source of conflict comes at deciding what is best.  But then isn't that true for most families?  In P&E's case they have the Centre whispering in their ears so there is that.

[sistermagpie]

5 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

I don't know why Father Tim is considered such a bad guy for keeping a diary. 

 

5 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

What was he supposed to do?  Crush any glimmer of hope that Paige might have at a happy life?  Say to her that her life sucks and things will never get better? 

I don't think he is considered a bad guy for it. Even P&E didn't really consider him a bad guy for it. Philip was just annoyed that he left the diary where Paige could find it and read it, and even there he told Paige she shouldn't read it. (And Elizabeth just saw it as an extension of the kind of busybody judging she sees him doing outside the diary.)

But this second question actually is kind of interesting because he really didn't have only those two choices. I think from Paige's pov he was supposed to be honest and he clearly wasn't, and that made her feel like he was really writing her off. 

I mean, he has no way of knowing whether she has a chance for happiness in her life--in fact, a lot of what he was saying wasn't so much that she couldn't be happy but that she was damned. That is, she'd lost the ability to understand truth or to know right from wrong. A person like that could be happy, they would just be bad. 

And it does kind of underline his limitations as a pastor. When Paige wandered into his church as a girl who just thought her parents didn't get her ordinary problems and were maybe having affairs he had all the answers. Their relationship was mostly him talking and her nodding eagerly as she listened to agreed with him. I think if Paige had kept that kind of relationship, like the way it was when she'd first told him and it was still her and Pastor Tim vs. her parents he probably would have seen lots of potential for her to be a good person. 

I mean, he himself is keeping the Jennings secret and doesn't seem to feel like he's endangered his soul by doing it. Can Paige just not do that because she actually loves them? Makes me wonder if he's really any help to those sexual abuse victims he's seen.

5 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

Father Tim has no clue what P&E are all about, and he knows that that family is truly dysfunctional.   He knows that Paige is miserable.  Heck, Gregory knew that Paige was very troubled, which is why he said to Philip that Paige wasn't cut out for their line of "work".

But "dysfunctional" is kind of a catch-all word that's almost meaningless. Paige is upset because of the situation she's in, not because her parents are incapable of a relationship with her. If they're simply bad because they're imparting their own beliefs to her then that gets a little complicated. Pastor Tim's daughter will be brought up in his belief system even more aggressively. Anybody working in intelligence will eventually give their children the idea that they think espionage is a valid job choice. I think there's a difference between a family being in a stressful situation (even if it's one created by the parents) and families who undermine and tear each other down when they interact. I think the Jennings often are a functional family and do have very similar impulses towards their kids that Pastor Tim has towards his daughter.

Also, I still really don't see this idea that Gabriel made some personal judgment after meeting Paige--that's actually something he could have reported to the Centre to help. He even told Elizabeth that she could handle what they'd given her. Saying "You were right, she should never have been brought into this" when you're an old Soviet murderer exhausted by your life of espionage sounds more like a statement about yourself and the life than a specific judgment that this one teenager just isn't good enough because her Bambi eyes are just that tragic.

3 hours ago, Ina123 said:

In his diary he doesn'teven ask God for help with her.

LOL! I noticed that too. I don't think it's intentional, but the show has always presented Pastor Tim as more like a guy running his own personal lite-cult than a fervent Christian. Viola in season 1 had two episodes in which she illustrated Christian thinking far better than anything Pastor Tim has done. Every time he or Paige talk about praying they seem like both of them don't actually have any experience with the process and are trying to fake it so nobody knows they don't actually know what it is.

[Bannon]

6 minutes ago, Chaos Theory said:

The one thing P&E would never ever ever do is turn on their kids.  Which is why I think The finale this season will ultimately involve Paige doing something awful that will shock even Elizabeth.  

Despite their shaky parenting P&E love their kids and do want what is best for them.  The major source of conflict comes at deciding what is best.  But then isn't that true for most families?  In P&E's case they have the Centre whispering in their ears so there is that.

I really think it would be better for Paige to actually demonstrate the intelligence she purportedly has, while becoming much more aware of her mother's murderously awful behavior, in support of a regime that murdered tens of millions of its own citizens. If they continue to have Paige act like an incurious, credulous  halfwit of a teenager, while she goes down her mom's homicidal path (and could anything short of murder actually shock E?), despite having no serious ideological indoctrination, and not even half-serious ideological indoctrination until deep into adolescence, I think that would be extremely poor writing. If Paige had been portrayed as a seriously antisocial American female teenager with violent tendencies, prior to her parents' identities being revealed, I could buy it better. If they do it now, to me, it will be rather like what the writers have done too often, which is have characters other than P&E be whatever is convenient at the time, for purposes of plot advancement.

[Bannon]

I also have to say that if Henry becomes a major character around whom the plot revolves, after almost essentially being written out of the show, for years, that'll be really problematic to me. I really want to enjoy what is left, so I hope these writers and directors deliver stuff that is worthy of Russell's  and Rhys' considerable talents and efforts

[sistermagpie]

31 minutes ago, Bannon said:

I also have to say that if Henry becomes a major character around whom the plot revolves, after almost essentially being written out of the show, for years, that'll be really problematic to me. I really want to enjoy what is left, so I hope these writers and directors deliver stuff that is worthy of Russell's  and Rhys' considerable talents and efforts

But plot can revolve around anybody. Henry's always been there close to them. It wouldn't be a twist for him to suddenly be in a position to destroy their lives.

[Bannon]

1 minute ago, sistermagpie said:

But plot can revolve around anybody. Henry's always been there close to them. It wouldn't be a twist for him to suddenly be in a position to destroy their lives.

Yes,it can, but I think it would be unwise, in my view, after spending years ignoring the development of the character. It seems to me that it would make a lot more sense to have the plot revolve around a character into which must has been invested, in terms of the audience gaining insight into.

[Clanstarling]

1 hour ago, Bannon said:

I really think it would be better for Paige to actually demonstrate the intelligence she purportedly has, while becoming much more aware of her mother's murderously awful behavior, in support of a regime that murdered tens of millions of its own citizens. If they continue to have Paige act like an incurious, credulous  halfwit of a teenager, while she goes down her mom's homicidal path (and could anything short of murder actually shock E?), despite having no serious ideological indoctrination, and not even half-serious ideological indoctrination until deep into adolescence, I think that would be extremely poor writing. If Paige had been portrayed as a seriously antisocial American female teenager with violent tendencies, prior to her parents' identities being revealed, I could buy it better. If they do it now, to me, it will be rather like what the writers have done too often, which is have characters other than P&E be whatever is convenient at the time, for purposes of plot advancement.

Maybe she'll kill Pastor Tim. (kind of, sort of, kidding - though it would be the ultimate repudiation of him)

[Eulipian 5k]

Now that we're seeing Liz kind of parenting Tuan, have P & E even begun to think about if their daughter were put in his position? They have essentially told him to ignore his dying brother so as to not compromise "the mission". Would they council Paige to ignore Henry if she needed to be elsewhere "for the mission"? (and Tuan isn't even  in the honey-trapping stage as yet).

[Razzberry]

1 hour ago, Bannon said:

I really think it would be better for Paige to actually demonstrate the intelligence she purportedly has, while becoming much more aware of her mother's murderously awful behavior, in support of a regime that murdered tens of millions of its own citizens. If they continue to have Paige act like an incurious, credulous  halfwit of a teenager, while she goes down her mom's homicidal path (and could anything short of murder actually shock E?), despite having no serious ideological indoctrination, and not even half-serious ideological indoctrination until deep into adolescence, I think that would be extremely poor writing.

Bingo. My primary problem with Paige is that she's never been anything more than a plot device.   While not a main player it wasn't an issue, but the growing focus only magnifies how poorly written she is, and the limitation of child actors compounds the felony to an almost intolerable level. 

She's at an age when most people start seeing parents in a more realistic light, and separating to some extent.  Paige clings like Saran wrap and swallows regurgitated propaganda like Beech-nut applesauce.  When she was mopping the floor late at night I was hoping she was on drugs, anything but more of the eyebrow-raising teen drama.

[SunnyBeBe]

7 hours ago, Ina123 said:

Supposedly Paige is already saved. Otherwise she would not have been Baptized. At least that'sthe normal progression in Protestant churches I know. Just another reason I don'thave much respect for Pastor Tim (or rather see the writers as not having much experience with the subject matter). He never really tells her to turn her problems over to God. In his diary he doesn'teven ask God for help with her. In reality, to show him as being a caring pastor there would be a scene of him praying for answers in how to help Paige. Oh, what am I thinking? This is TV. They never get Protestant Christanty right unless it's a preacher gone bad. Of course, they have to worry about what the viewing public will bear. <off soapbox>

Very true.  IMO, the writers missed an opportunity to really reveal what is in the heart of a Protestant pastor.  They ignore that Pastor Tim is missionary minded or that is how he has been portrayed.   From what we have seen, he ministers to the less fortunate, downtrodden, outcasts,  even those in the depths of despair and poverty.  He undoubtedly knows that many people around the world endure all kinds of atrocities (genocide, starvation, torture, religious persecution, imprisonment, abduction) etc.  Yet, they SURVIVE and even THRIVE though their FAITH IN GOD.  This is why religious leaders LEAD. They are supposed to pray and have FAITH in God's power and DELIVERANCE FROM EVIL.  (Yea, though, I walk through the valley of shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for thou art with me and so forth.........23 Psalms. THAT's what I thought Pastors were supposed to do.  Sadly, Pastor Tim just isn't very spiritual, IMO. Is he a fraud?    If you face a hardtime, you might should just hang it up.  Thanks a lot, Pastor Tim.  If Paige is so damaged, then why not get her some real therapy and not just loading up boxes for the poor?  And, if she's so damaged, why allow her to provide childcare for your baby?  

Edited May 12, 2017 by SunnyBeBe

[sistermagpie]

5 minutes ago, Razzberry said:

She's at an age when most people start seeing parents in a more realistic light, and separating to some extent. 

The funny thing is that she *was* doing that. That was the start of the whole thing. Back then Paige looked at what she thought were her travel agent parents and thought their behavior was weird and suspicious. She came up with possible reasons why that were not that far from the truth and was very confrontational about what she wanted to be (a person who was politically engaged and trying to make the world better and wanting to put other things above herself and serve a higher purpose) compared to how she saw them (suburban parents who cared for nothing beyond themselves and their material comfort, chasing either money or sex in suspicious ways purely for their own enjoyment).

Now not only is she not challenging the government they work for the way she challenged her own back then, she's also not glomming onto Elizabeth's heroic ideals and becoming a delusional believer in the cause because she thinks it's sexy. She's mostly going back and forth between fretting about how she must keep her parents' secret and being mildly impressed by the work they do. Not as impressed as she was by Pastor Tim getting arrested, but impressed. And not enjoying the sacrificial nature of anything.

To some extent I guess it makes sense since her parents' situation makes her choose in ways Pastor Tim's did not--it's the same thing she didn't like when Elizabeth first started hinting they were 60s radicals and she learned that Gregory was a drug dealer. She wants to do good while being good. But even that is no longer being dramatized that clearly.

5 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

From what we have seen, he ministers to the less fortunate, downtrodden, outcasts,  even those in the depths of despair and poverty.

That's not his usual venue, though. He works at a middle class church that seems to be filled with families just like the Jenningses. He does charity work at the soup kitchen and he does mission trips, but I imagine that's very different than being a pastor who actually has that type of place as your base. For instance, the people in Ethiopia would have their own religious leaders who are local who are the ones who are seeing them through their day to day life. Pastor Tim's pretty removed from all that. 

I had thought it would be interesting given the themes of this season, for instance, if he had an exchange with Philip at or about that food bank given that Philip has specific memories of that kind of hunger. Seems like an interesting thing to bring into it to connect things. Pastor Tim can't wrap his head around the things that Philip and Elizabeth have done, yet he's also ministering to the hungry, and we know that the kinds of decisions they made were in large part motivated by an upbringing full of deprivation. The poor don't always have the same options when it comes to making the right choice. When he describes them in the diary by saying "successful small business, smart kids who do well in school, don't get in trouble. But saying they're not what they seem is the understatement of the century..." it's not just that they're actually spies/murderers/liars/whores, it's also that they're not "successful small business" people. Or didn't start out that way. Philip was a violent murderer at 10 years old and became that out of fear and desperation and anger on a level Pastor Tim probably has never felt, even when he was lost in Ethiopia. 

[stagmania]

On a totally different note: has anyone else noticed the near total lack of sex between Elizabeth and Philip this season? I think the closest they got was that flirty scene with the cowboy hat. Since I'm rewatching the first season right now, the difference is really striking (they had sexual scenes in nearly every episode). I wonder if it's intentional and meant to communicate something about the state of their relationship, or just something the creators no longer think is all that important to see.

Edited May 12, 2017 by stagmania

[becauseIsaidso]

Well, I haven't as yet read past the first two pages of this episode's posts, and have loved all of them, whether or not I agree or have seen the same things other posters have - that's what I love about this forum - the diversity of POV and the freedom to post it.

For me, as I watched this season, I was at first as disappointed as many others have stated, but then I decided to disengage my couch-potato mentality and try to look at it from the writer's approach. And what I came up with was that the deadening pace of this season is, in some way, meant to convey the deadening tedium/stress/burden Elizabeth and Philip are feeling at this time. My feeling was reinforced by the scene at Oleg's and Gabriel's visit to Martha, with boosts from Alexi's family dysfunction, and especially P&E's reaction to Claudia's instruction about the continuation of the wheat operation. 

I absolutely LOVED the wedding scene - for me it was a patch of glorious togetherness amidst the daily drudge of completing each and every mission the Center assigns, no matter what the cost to their psyches or souls. But, as a plot device, I recognize it establishes for any who wondered (like me) whether Philip and Elizabeth were actually married until then.

I also LOVED the (was it) preview scenes of Henry with Stan at the FBI - I had a minor brain flash: wouldn't it be so totally cool if it was Henry, all along, who had been on to his parents' real identities, checked them out for himself, never let on to ANYONE except Claudia (in my fantasy, Henry has actually successfully trailed his parents, discovered the safe house, gone there, met Claudia, revealed what he knows about his parents, and announced his decision to join up.....you know what they say - it's always the quiet ones), and...

Then the final episode is Philip and Elizabeth and Paige (because she is REALLY stupid and CANNOT be trusted to not blow everyone's cover) 'die' in some strange accident that leaves Henry under the wing of uber-patriot Stan, going to the right college and following the exact right path to become a trusted FBI agent - just the sort of  '2nd generation' infiltrate the Center was hoping for - while Philip and Elizabeth happily return to Moscow, or some other equally desirable home in the soon to be not USSR, with Paige, who will (as much as such a delicate snowflake can tolerate, have to deal with a completely new life in a new country), and take up new KGB positions...I don't much care for a lot of the things they did, but am realistic enough to believe they did their assigned 'duty' and should be as rewarded for such as much as an actual American counterpart would be (and may well have been, for all I know) for doing the same in then contemporary USSR society - since I do not for one second think we/the US did not also do our damndest to infiltrate the USSR.

As usual ( I also had a fantasy ending for Dallas) I expect to be either a) disappointed or b) thrilled for the actual end of the series....but I'll be there to watch every second of it.

I will miss Nina forever...for me, she really got the crap end of the stick, undeservedly so.

I really, really, really hate pastor Tim, have done so since he first appeared(he seems to be the sort to have a radar for zoning in on troubled souls that he can manipulate to his POV, regardless of what is best for them), have hated Alice since her screaming threats, and can NOT see the back side of them soon enough.

[sistermagpie]

2 minutes ago, stagmania said:

I wonder if it's intentional and meant to communicate something about the state of their relationship, or just something the creators no longer think is all that important to see.

I think it's definitely the latter. I remember when they did the tooth-pulling scene the creators said something like "and there's your sex scene." Because originally they were supposed to have sex first or something. I think honestly the idea this season is that they're very very close and we're seeing it through romantic scenes and should just assume there's sex. Like the cowboy scene we should assume ends that way, I'd guess they had a wedding night to follow the wedding in this ep. But they don't show the sex unless it's communicating something specific and new. For instance, when they had that marathon session to "Under Pressure" last season. If the thing's already been communicated in the scene (like by the dance in the cowboy scene or the wedding in this ep) they don't need the sex to say it again.

[RedHawk]

2 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

Maybe she'll kill Pastor Tim. (kind of, sort of, kidding - though it would be the ultimate repudiation of him)

I would love for Pastor Tim and Alice to have an actual accident and be gone for good. (Yes, I'm orphaning their child, but perhaps there's a sensible aunt or uncle out there.) Then P&E would have to convince Paige that they didn't murder him. Heh.

[stagmania]

19 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

But they don't show the sex unless it's communicating something specific and new. 

I think you're probably right, because they do this with other aspects of the story as well. We didn't see Kimmy for ages, but we were meant to assume Philip was still seeing her regularly. Unless they need to show something for plot or thematic purposes, they're content to let the audience fill in a lot of blanks about how P&E are spending their time.

[Chaos Theory]

4 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

But plot can revolve around anybody. Henry's always been there close to them. It wouldn't be a twist for him to suddenly be in a position to destroy their lives.

They're ignoring him has been a plot point focusing instead on Paige who some have made a valid point is not cut out for spy work.  What if like many parents they realize too late that Henry is in fact built for the spy life but due to Stan's influences chooses America and Capitalism?

[Hanahope]

I just notice that whenever Paige is telling her parents something that is upsetting her, whether its that she's not connecting with Matthew the way she thought, and she broke up with him, or Pastor Tim is fearful of her soul and writes that the parents are worst that child molesters (really?), that neither of her parents give her a hug to make her feel better or to support her.  I'm sure neither of them grew up getting hugs from their parents, and so they don't have that frame of reference to give that to Paige.  Its just something that normally, you do see parents hug their kids, tell them it'll work out, things will be alright, and even without those platitudes, the hug just makes the kid feel better.

[dubbel zout]

We often see Philip next to Paige—on the sofa, floor, bed, wherever she is. I think Elizabeth usually keeps more distance between them. Neither parent is all that demonstrative, even to the other, let alone their kids.

[millennium]

12 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

 

I don't know why Father Tim is considered such a bad guy for keeping a diary. 

The only way Father Tim can be a bad guy is if Philip and Elizabeth are good guys -- and they are not.  Elizabeth is a remorseless killer and exploiter of people; Philip is only slightly better because he's guilty of the same crimes but feels conflicted about it.   Everything Father Tim wrote about Paige is probably true.  It's a damning indictment of the life that Philip and Elizabeth have inflicted upon her.   

[Dowel Jones]

2 hours ago, RedHawk said:

I would love for Pastor Tim and Alice to have an actual accident and be gone for good.

Maybe they will die in a collision with a freight truck carrying grain for export to the USSR.

10 hours ago, stagmania said:

There has been absolutely no indication that Philip and Elizabeth would ever turn on their children. 

There lies an interesting situation.  What if either or both of the kids took on some adamantly anti-Soviet attitude and action, and the Centre, which has shown no remorse for any of its actions, decreed that they were becoming a danger and for Philip/Elizabeth to deal with them?  Philip, likely not, but Elizabeth?  There is a core-level crack in her belief systems there.

[Moose135]

13 hours ago, millennium said:

I found the marriage ceremony repellent.  Standing before God, professing love, when the happy couple just murdered an innocent man a couple weeks ago.

This.  And if you can get beyond the murder, assuming they felt it was justified to protect their homeland, the whole ceremony seemed strange to me.  They don't look to have any religious beliefs, having grown up in the Communist Soviet system, they weren't happy that Paige was getting involved in a church - giving her the "opiate of the masses" talk, yet they have a full-blown religious ceremony.  I understand using the priest they did - being KGB himself, there won't be any messy questions - but why not more of a "civil" ceremony, just exchanging simple vows, without the religious aspect?

On a shallow note, was I the only one reminded of the wedding of Latka and Simka on Taxi?

[crgirl412]

16 minutes ago, Moose135 said:

This.  And if you can get beyond the murder, assuming they felt it was justified to protect their homeland, the whole ceremony seemed strange to me.  They don't look to have any religious beliefs, having grown up in the Communist Soviet system, they weren't happy that Paige was getting involved in a church - giving her the "opiate of the masses" talk, yet they have a full-blown religious ceremony.  I understand using the priest they did - being KGB himself, there won't be any messy questions - but why not more of a "civil" ceremony, just exchanging simple vows, without the religious aspect?

On a shallow note, was I the only one reminded of the wedding of Latka and Simka on Taxi?

It was supposed to be "strange."  It showed not only cracks in their armour but huge gashes and gaping holes in their atheism and entire belief system- especially for Elizabeth. 

I had to find the wedding on youtube and yes, there were several similarities!!  I loved Taxi!!!

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, Moose135 said:

This.  And if you can get beyond the murder, assuming they felt it was justified to protect their homeland, the whole ceremony seemed strange to me.  They don't look to have any religious beliefs, having grown up in the Communist Soviet system, they weren't happy that Paige was getting involved in a church - giving her the "opiate of the masses" talk, yet they have a full-blown religious ceremony.  I understand using the priest they did - being KGB himself, there won't be any messy questions - but why not more of a "civil" ceremony, just exchanging simple vows, without the religious aspect?

A wedding is a wedding. Philip met somebody who officiates at weddings as part of his job so he had a ceremony he knew how to do. Plus the guy was a spy and Russian so he could do it for their real selves. He's not going to ask the guy to write up a new secular version and he and Elizabeth aren't exactly the types to want to make up a ceremony for themselves. Makes perfect sense to me they'd prefer an official wedding ritual of some kind.

I'd bet weddings might be the religious ceremony mot often performed on non-religious or even anti-religious people for various reasons. There's very little in that ceremony where the symbolism doesn't relate to the joining of the two people. There's an exchange of rings, the crowns that symbolize them being married, formally asking if they take the other person (even if they're referred to as a servant of God!) as their spouse, stepping onto a new path together and chanting in Church Slavonic. Probably even religious people are more aware of that at their wedding than specific allusions to the Bible etc. Plus the fact that it's in Russian with a Russian style of things is probably just as meaningful to them in their situation as God would be to some other people. 

They're not threatened by his Russian Orthodox faith the way they (or mostly Elizabeth) was threatened by Pastor Tim's influence over their daughter.

44 minutes ago, crgirl412 said:

It was supposed to be "strange."  It showed not only cracks in their armour but huge gashes and gaping holes in their atheism and entire belief system- especially for Elizabeth. 

I don't think it's showing gashes in their atheism. They believe in their marriage and they believe in each other. They didn't have to change their opinion about God to be into it. Atheists can be moved by rituals like this for different reasons. Many many atheists have no doubt cried over the beauty of their church weddings! Philip and Elizabeth are truly people of faith, after all. It's central to their lives.

[White Sheep]

On 5/11/2017 at 2:41 PM, Umbelina said:

I think the show has laid the groundwork for Elizabeth finally actually loving Philip, it began when he killed her rapist.  That said, one person always loves more in a relationship, that's just the way it is.  Philip is obviously that person in their marriage.  Philip is the one sacrificing everything, his daughter, his sanity, his entire emotional well being in order to do WHAT ELIZABETH WANTS.  Elizabeth sacrifices nothing for Philip.  Her way or the highway.  I think Philip has an idea that if he sticks by her long enough, she will either come around to loving him as much as he loves her, and sacrificing a little bit back, or eventually change her mind about them continuing to live their fucked up lives.

Tim's wife, IMO, definitely contacted that lawyer, and it was frankly, the only smart thing that couple has done.  They would be dead if not for a bioweapons accident and that. 

I don't hate Tuan.  I actually like Tuan.  He doesn't take any joy in what he's doing to Pasha.  Sure, he thinks Pasha is a spoiled aristocrat who has no idea what true suffering is, and from Tuan's POV that is completely correct.  Pasha hasn't watched his entire country go down in a stupid violent horrific war, he hasn't watched his entire family murdered, or had to eat from garbage cans if he could even find any food in them.  To Tuan, of course Pasha is a bratty entitled boob.  Still, Tuan's "torture" of Pasha is nothing compared to the torture of Tuan's entire childhood.  Dog shit?  Really?  Try watching your village burn from Napalm or people's head's blown off as a child.

Tuan was told by Elizabeth that they needed that family back in the USSR, and came up with a solution that made sense and was relatively easy to accomplish.  He's, if anything, simply trying to prove his worth to Elizabeth, be a soldier, accomplish his tasks, be worthy, be smart.

Everyone in the show is fucked and there is just no relief. 

• Stan and Aderholt will ruin that woman's life, and probably her son's as well
• Elizabeth will make Pasha's mom and her entire family slaves/imprisoned hostages to the KGB forever
• Oleg and his entire family are at the mercy of both the CIA and KGB internal investigations, living in terror
• Philip is still miserable about everything
• Pretty sure Claudia is lying to Philip and Elizabeth about a lot of stuff, they are just her stooges
• Pasha is a shy lost kid who is now more miserable than ever
• Philip drinks the dad's hooch and pretends to care while he helps ruin this guy's life
• Paige IS a victim, a deceived fool, another pawn who will never have a decent life, and mommy is all for it, and daddy too big a wimp to change it.
• Tim, I do believe, is actually concerned and in many ways correct, but he's such an ineffective fool I want him dead anyway, so who cares.  His wife?  I like more, at least she showed a brain.
• Stan is undoubtedly in deep shit, probably with his own agency and whatever his girlfriend really is
• Misha, another sad story of an innocent caught in a horrible world, who nearly made it...somewhere possibly better, but was foiled by the KGB
• Gabe is looking back at his horrific life and wondering what in the hell he's done with his time
• Claudia has no one, no family that "knows" her, she's a robot, true believer apparently who doesn't give a shit who goes down.
• Martha finally realizes what a complete and utter fool she was, stuck with no one, can't even call her parents, for all she knows, living out her traitorous life in a bleak, cold, lonely place with few comforts and no freedom.  She puts one foot wrong?  She's dead.
• The priest was a plot point to get them married.  Still, no one in the KGB appears to give a shit about him
• The scientist is dead for taking a job studying bugs

I do think the KGB considered second generation spies WAY back when they first decided to send "married" couples to the USA.  It was long term thinking, back burner, but they were pretty damn insistent on their couples having children.  It's the kind of long term planning government bureaucracies are famous for.  In addition, from interviews and information that leaked about the real embedded spies, they seemed to always know that was part of the deal.  Since they were minors, much of that information is suspect, some was protected, some is contested (more in the real spy thread) but yeah.  It simply makes sense.  Anyone that's worked in a huge government bureaucracy can picture the charts and plans easily.

Sounds like you know to much here my friend.  Who you working for??

I can't fault any of your logic here   Pretty bleak but very correct  

The Cold War was brutal. Everyone job in it regardless of what side you were on.  Was to make everyone betray everything they believed in and have awful thing happen to them for small gains.  That was the name of the game. 

 

Some guy on Reddit.  Thinks hippie wheat guy E trying to seduce.  Actually working for CIA.  Never considered that idea. But it could be.  Who would suspect him?  

Edited May 13, 2017 by White Sheep