S03.E17: Heroes Rise: The Primal Riddle

[formerlyfreedom]

Some of Gotham's most unhinged villains band together, while The Riddler continues his conquest of the city. Gordon is on a search for answers and all roads keep leading him back to the Court of Owls. Meanwhile, as Alfred begins to notice a change in Bruce, Bruce 2 confides in Selina.

 

[Lantern7]

Welcome to Gotham, where it's impossible to stop giving a fuck when you never gave a fuck to begin with.

Seriously . . . homages to Burton and Schumacher?!? Richard Kind's character referred to as a "ding dong"? Nygma vamping it up and killing actors? I should be rolling my eyes, and I do . . . but not as much as I should. None of the DC shows on the CW are this insane, even with time getting wrecked on a regular basis.

[paigow]

Selena has 8 lives now.... Court of Owls: Apprentice starts now...Nygma vs Gordon....is Gotham near one of the Poles? 

[Spartan Girl]

So you're standing next to a window several feet above ground with an evil clone, and your move is to threaten to expose him and piss him off? Oh Selina, you were supposed to be smarter than that.

Speaking of stupid, go ahead, Lee. Poke around the Court's business just to get back at Jim. We don't need TWO crazy ex girlfriends on this show. 

Edited May 9, 2017 by Spartan Girl

[Chaos Theory]

Again Hordon is the least interesting thing about the show.

I did enjoy the multiple scenes with Barbara.  Seems she is getting a big power hungry she is.

At first I thought Selena getting pushed out the window was a circular thing with her pushing that guy out the window that one time but then I remember a Batman movie where a pre version of cat woman got pushed out a window by a villian and the cat scene was quite similar.

Even though.,,,I still think it works.

[Sakura12]

Gotham is always bonkers. The Court is really not that bright if Jim is fooling them. He's probably the easiest person to read in any room. 

I loved the Batman Returns homage with Selina. Is she going to go crazy and have nine lives now? I wonder what freak side she'll join. Hopefully she finds Tabitha so she can teach her how to use the whip. 

[Danielg342]

Call me cynical because I probably know better...but if Selina Kyle bites the dust (or is replaced by another actress) I just might bite the dust. That's as much a dealbreaker for me as if the show axed Bullock.

For much of this episode, it felt like a lot like filler, with so many things happening and little actual resolution. It was telling that the Progressive ad with Susan Lucci captured the essence of this instalment- over-dramatic, stilted and ultimately inconsequential.

Then we got to The Riddler vs. James Gordon. In a shocker, these two actually lit up the screen, pointing to some actual chemistry between Ben McKenzie and Cory Michael Smith. When it was just those two on the screen, the show was immediately brought to life.

Which highlights the issue with S3- the storytelling just isn't tight. These writers really are trying to do too much and I'm not sure they really have a focus.

Still, Gordon for once actually did something and actually got a victory out of it...that's more than this show could say for quite some time.

The Bullock Meter: 

He was in most of the episode, but Harvey- like much of the cast these days- just does things because the plot says so. Like leave Aubrey James unattended when he knew someone wanted to kidnap him. I still wrestle with whether or not it's in character- Bullock is brighter than that, but I could also see his emotions getting the better of him.

Still, Bullock just hasn't really been Bullock this season and it's getting irritating.

[HoodlumSheep]

Well I liked tbis episode much more than I thought I was going to...

Pros:

• Good to see Mr. Freeze and Firely again! Even though Firefly has been recast, I did love how she quit her job by throwing molten stuff in that guy's face
• Currently digging the Pengy/Ivy/Fire&Ice group. They seem fun!
• Good to see Mr. Mayor again. He's so cowardly, bu the guy who plays him does a good job
• Liked the Jim/Ed stuff. I like how the Riddler was used this episode because I haven't been digging him as much since the show returned from break 3 weeks back.
• The Selina/Doppel!Bruce scene was good. And now the cats will resurrect Selina ala the Tim Burton flick!
• Doppel!Bruce's theme song continues to be A++++++++
• Jim was used well this episode
• I liked the Ed/Mayor scene when the mayor says they're both dead. Like, the moment he said that I was expecting one of the Talons to drop in and murder everybody. Yes yes, I know the riddler ain't ever gonna die, but a girl can dream of how awesome it could have been
• Babs is cracking again! 
• I wish they'd use Tabitha more! She's so criminally underused. At least when she does get to do stuff it's pretty great.
• Butch!

Cons???:

• Still hoping this is a ruse and the Court of Owls didn't suffer a dramatic decrease in IQ. Please let this be a trap for Jim Gordon!
• Lee. She hasn't really bothered me much until now. Girl, you are gonna look stupid when it's revealed that Uncle Frank killed himself and this is part of a grand scheme to take down the evil organization known as the Court of Owls.
• Alfred come on. You know something's wrong with "Bruce" so why don't you do something? Investigate, listen at the door, something! 

Edited May 9, 2017 by HoodlumSheep

[Shawker]

11 minutes ago, HoodlumSheep said:

Currently digging the Pengy/Ivy/Fire&Ice group. They seem fun!

Do NOT call him Pengy! 
That short exchange cracked me up. 

[Traveller519]

Amid the crazyness, and among the quality production, Gotham does some exceptional storytelling through its visuals at times. The best example of this tonight was in the steel mill (undisclosed as to whether it's part of Sionis Industries). Everyone else is using proper equipment and tools to handle the crucibles, but Bridget is calmly handling hers, including putting it into the furnace, with her bare hands while she talks with Oswald and Ivy. That gently reminds us of her Strange-enhanced powers, and sets up her grand exit from the mill without additional questions.

On the other hand,  I've completely lost track as to whether Butch should be alive, or at all sane and lucid, at this point... but he does continue to show up

[Kostgard]

This left me feeling so bad for Ed. First, no one is getting good quality sleep in a place with an active disco ball going at all times. Second, they seem to be going with the version of the Riddler from the comics who actually has a bit of an obsessive-compulsive problem. The guy who always leaves clues that tip off the police/Batman to who did the crime/where he is not because he enjoys messing with them so much as he just can't help himself and HAS TO leave the riddles/clues behind. When Kathryn told him "Come with me and you'll get the answer to that riddle" he just seemed...relieved. Like, finally, all that tension and anxiety from an unsolved riddle melting away. I can't tell if he's going to be able to outsmart The Court or if he's now in over his head. And poor Ed with his "all friendships end in betrayal" view. That's a seriously messy breakup he and Ozzy had.

It was fun seeing Oswald and Ivy collect their freak family (and Oswald just embracing the "freak" label), but it certainly feels temporary/tenuous. Once Oswald gets to where he wants to go, they will most certainly fall by the wayside (and who knows if he'll actually keep his promise to help Freeze. And poor Firefly is getting an even rawer deal, since she is looking for a place to belong). But it may be fun while it lasts. And nice moment he when sees what Ed has been up to - his reaction was the perfect mix of pride (in seeing Ed start to become the villain Oswald knew he could be) and bitterness. 

Alfred really should have picked up on something being off by now. I mean, I get it - teenagers. They can be moody and forever changing, but Alfred should be sharper than that. We'll see if he starts to notice that this Bruce is basically dissolving. 

I wonder how Selina comes back from this...

Jim joining the court made me actually care about what he's up to. And I enjoyed that he was largely on to Ed's game and wasn't easily duped. 

They either need to give Lee something to do or write her off the show. Having her show up just to dump on Jim is hardly compelling television.

Babs is isolating herself. Not a great move. 

Edited May 9, 2017 by Kostgard

[Maximum Taco]

Call me crazy, but I was not a huge fan of the Selina (probable) resurrection scene.

I usually like it when Gotham pays homage to Batman lore, but this was pretty much just lifting the scene as is from Batman Returns. She gets defenestrated, lands in an alley, in the same contorted manner and the cats come to save/eat her.

Whenever Gotham did a reference from a movie or comic before it felt like an homage, this feels like stealing one of Tim Burton's ideas.

Maybe I'm overreacting, but it felt wrong to me.

Edited May 9, 2017 by Maximum Taco

[luna1122]

7 hours ago, Maximum Taco said:

Call me crazy, but I was not a huge fan of the Selina (probable) resurrection scene.

I usually like it when Gotham pays homage to Batman lore, but this was pretty much just lifting the scene as is from Batman Returns. She gets defenestrated, lands in an alley, in the same contorted manner and the cats come to save/eat her.

Whenever Gotham did a reference from a movie or comic before it felt like an homage, this feels like stealing one of Tim Burton's ideas.

Maybe I'm overreacting, but it felt wrong to me.

I actually loved it. I'll take it as homage. I can't wait to see Catwoman actually be born.

[paigow]

Nobody wants to recreate Halle Berry Catwoman......

[darkestboy]

Good enough episode. 

Does anyone really care if Aubrey lives or dies? Anyone? Really? Yeah, not convinced to be honest.

I did like the Gordon vs. Nygma stuff and the latter now being in the Court of Owls possession should be interesting. Of course Gordon would end up being a member despite the fact that he's a liability.

Leslie snooping into the Court can't end well for her.

Interesting to see a divide between Barbara and Tabitha and one Butch seems to be encouraging as well.

Good stuff with Ivy and Oswald rounding up Freeze and Firefly and the recreation of that iconic Batman Returns scene with Selina was neat, 7/10

[Philbert]

14 hours ago, paigow said:

Nobody wants to recreate Halle Berry Catwoman......

Nobody even wants to be reminded of that film's existence...

14 hours ago, darkestboy said:

Good enough episode. 

Does anyone really care if Aubrey lives or dies? Anyone? Really? Yeah, not convinced to be honest.

Oh I do but only because I love Richard Kind.

[immortalfrieza]

21 hours ago, Kostgard said:

This left me feeling so bad for Ed. First, no one is getting good quality sleep in a place with an active disco ball going at all times. Second, they seem to be going with the version of the Riddler from the comics who actually has a bit of an obsessive-compulsive problem. The guy who always leaves clues that tip off the police/Batman to who did the crime/where he is not because he enjoys messing with them so much as he just can't help himself and HAS TO leave the riddles/clues behind. When Kathryn told him "Come with me and you'll get the answer to that riddle" he just seemed...relieved. Like, finally, all that tension and anxiety from an unsolved riddle melting away. I can't tell if he's going to be able to outsmart The Court or if he's now in over his head. And poor Ed with his "all friendships end in betrayal" view. That's a seriously messy breakup he and Ozzy had.

Yeah, they're definitely going with the obsessive-compulsive Riddler this adaption. My favorite part about this version of the Riddler is he's actually threatening, he's actually dangerous. The other versions are either far too campy and silly or turn out to barely even be a villain because they keep getting their riddles solved by Batman and thus stopped before they can actually DO anything evil, or both.

Between Oswald gathering freaks, Jim getting into the Court, and Not!Bruce revealing his identity to Selina and then "killing" her, this was definitely little more than a "setting stuff up" episode. I don't much care for setting stuff up episodes like this, a good writer is supposed to set things up here and there over the course of several episodes, not just dump it all in a single episode.

[thuganomics85]

So, Oswald and Ivy's freak army really only consist of two other guys, but it's a start, I guess.  Fun seeing Dr. Freeze and a recast Firefly, although I see they are attempting to have Freeze do the lame cold puns, which I'm not sure is going to work, if nothing else, because Leonard "Captain Cold" Snart pretty much has that part locked down.  But the Oswald/Ivy pairing continues to be a surprising treat.

Jim proves himself to the Court by bringing them Nygma, but it sounds like they aren't going to harm him, but use him for their nefarious plans.  Did Jim just accidentally hand them their greatest weapon?

Barbara and Tabitha are starting to clash (Butch certainly seems to be enjoying.)  If I had to put money on anyone, it would be Barbara since she's connected more to the main storylines (and lead character), but I don't want Tabitha going anywhere, especially after that outfit they put Jessica Lucas in!

For someone who is suppose to be street smart, Selina sure was pretty dumb antagonizing Not Bruce in front of a window like that.  Of course, there is no way she is dead for good, and this is a set-up for her to officially become Catwoman.

I kind of get a kick out of how Mayor James keeps managing to survive.  Richard Kind excels with these weaselly characters. 

Usually I'm all for not listening to Gordon, but Bullock leaving James unattended to brawl with a biker gang that was clearly a set-up for Nygma's plan seemed like bad police work.  Of course, had he stayed, he might have died, so I guess that's still a win for him?

[jhlipton]

16 hours ago, paigow said:

Nobody wants to recreate Halle Berry Catwoman......

Speak for yourself -- I enjoyed it.  I know it's disparaged by true Batman fans, but no one tells me what I have to like or hate.

[Perfect Xero]

When Jim and Ed were sitting in the car and Jim brought up that time they had dinner together with Lee and Kringle, and then he just had the quiet moment of wondering how the hell it all came to this? That was the best moment that Gordon/McKenzie has had in the entire series.

[Dame sans merci]

5 hours ago, Perfect Xero said:

When Jim and Ed were sitting in the car and Jim brought up that time they had dinner together with Lee and Kringle, and then he just had the quiet moment of wondering how the hell it all came to this? That was the best moment that Gordon/McKenzie has had in the entire series.

That was such a fantastic moment: Gotham very rarely allows Jim the chance to reflect over anything, or express emotions that rely on a shared history. He just gets to look stoic/constipated. He's much more interesting when you get the opportunity to see the emotional baggage he's picked up.

On 09/05/2017 at 2:27 AM, Shawker said:

Do NOT call him Pengy! 
That short exchange cracked me up. 

That may have been my episode highlight. I love that Ivy didn't even seem mildly perturbed by him getting cranky with her. It's like he's an aggressive pet she indulges.

[jhlipton]

5 hours ago, Blackcanary said:

I love that Ivy didn't even seem mildly perturbed by him getting cranky with her. It's like he's an aggressive pet she indulges.

And vice versa.

[Kathemy]

Doux Reviews: The Primal Riddle

[SnarkyTart]

On ‎5‎/‎9‎/‎2017 at 5:52 PM, iheartET said:

4) Sooo when is...Fish going to come back ????

Never would be too soon.  I enjoy this show so much more when Jada Pinkett Smith is not a part of it.  Unfortunately, there are recent reports that she will be back in episode 20.

https://fansided.com/2017/05/10/gotham-season-3-fish-mooney-returning-episode-20/

Edited May 12, 2017 by SnarkyTart

[Kathemy]

They know she's... "divisive", to say the least. She'll only be around for a little while, I think - basically to assist Ozzie in his game of supervillain Pokemon.

Edited May 12, 2017 by Kathemy

[SnarkyTart]

8 hours ago, iheartET said:

Why do you enjoy the show so much more when she is not on it ?

I don't like her character, and find her acting atrocious.  She's so over-the-top, and not in the fun way of other OTT characters, such as Oswald and Nygma.  When she's featured in the show her storyline, which is of no interest to me, often puts other cast members (whom I do enjoy) on the back burner.

[Snookums]

Ahhh, finally some time to post!

So this one was basically wheel-spinning, but at least they popped some wheelies and flirted with the bystanders.

Jim Gordon finally has something to do and thus is less of a dummy then usual! I think that's the main problem with him--when he's not trying to achieve a specific Gotham-related goal he gets super annoying because he's such an idiot. He needs stuff to focus on to keep himself out of trouble. Hopefully it will involve him finally telling Lee off because I really cannot take one more scene of her overprotesting about much she LOOOOVED her dead husband of six hours and how Jim is a wrecking ball and blah blah blah. 

My husband posited that perhaps Harvey seems to be treading water because he's secretly the head of the Owls and now I am obsessed with this idea.

Babs gets fronted by Tabs and starts to show the cracks beneath the frosting, much to Butch's delight! Heh, that trio is the best. Also liked Ed and Barbara not quite knowing how to deal with the other's crazy. 

Selina demonstrating one great human weakness--even knowing she's not talking to Bruce, she keeps treating the clone the way she treated him, because he looks like him. When CloneBruce is trying to get her to leave and then saying she can't tell anybody about this week's "burn down Gotham" scheme, she snaps right back, and rightly so, "then why the hell did you tell me?" Because she's expecting him to react like Real Bruce, to give her more info or ask her to help him.  And when she pulls her patented Selina Bitch Exit Line and tells him to leave, she never wants to see him again, she's expecting him to react like Real Bruce--all stoic and press-lipped and marching out the door. She sure as hell wasn't expecting a guy as unstable as Kylo Ren's lightsaber to shove her out a damn window in a split second of frustration!

That scene was a great metaphor for why Gotham and its citizens keep eating their own tails. They always think they're talking to their last enemy/love/tormentor, not their current one.

Edited May 15, 2017 by Snookums

[SnarkyTart]

26 minutes ago, Snookums said:

My husband posited that perhaps Harvey seems to be treading water because he's secretly the head of the Owls and now I am obsessed with this idea.

Hahaha!  I never thought of that, and now I'm obsessed with it too.

[Kostgard]

If this show's writers make it so Harvey's been pulling the strings the whole time, I will buy them a car.

[Danielg342]

I feel like Harvey being the leader of the Court would be a major ass pull. Yes, he's been shady before but he's clearly on the law enforcement side, and I'm not sure the character has the organizational capabilities to lead an organization.

Jim, stoic and controlled on the other hand...