S05.E09: IHOP

[sistermagpie]

23 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

I thought that was one of the reasons Philip met with the priest in the first place, i.e., Philip was the emergency number. 

Yes, it was. But that's what I meant. It's not like the priest isn't allowed to call Philip in an emergency, he just doesn't have time for weekly hand-holding/proselytizing sessions with him.

[RedHawk]

43 minutes ago, henripootel said:

Am I the only one thinking that Oleg's dad isn't Oleg's biological dad?  

We're getting hints that he might not be, or that could be a misdirection. 

[sistermagpie]

4 minutes ago, RedHawk said:

We're getting hints that he might not be, or that could be a misdirection. 

At this point Oleg would know about it if it were true, wouldn't he? His dad claimed in their conversation that when his wife came out of the camp neither kid had been born yet. Of course, she might have been pregnant, but Oleg looked at her file and I assume that would have her release date. He'd probably notice if it was less than 9 months before he was born.

[Chaos Theory]

My crack pairing has now officially become Oleg (Who is way to American for his own good) and Martha (The American secretary exfiltrated to Russia in the name of a man who didn't love her). I would love it if those two crazy kids met fell in love....and of course it ended tragically because..,well it is this show but damn I want them both to be happy for a couple of episodes.

[mjc570]

2 hours ago, henripootel said:

Am I the only one thinking that Oleg's dad isn't Oleg's biological dad?  

No.

[Umbelina]

6 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I was a little curious about the conversation that Oleg had with his dad about his mom's imprisonment.  Yes, I suppose it was the kind of thing that you don't want to broadcast, but, I found his  father's comment rather odd.  When Oleg asked him why his dad never told him about it, he said that so Oleg could have the life that he was given.  What does that mean? How would having that knowledge, say, after he turned 18 years old, really deprive him of his education, status, comfort, etc.?  The dialogue from his dad during that conversation just seemed odd to me AS does the who story.  I don't get why a man's wife is taken to prison and a few years alter, he become Minister of Transportation.  Either he was a higher up when she was taken to prison OR he rose in status AFTER she was released from prison.  WHICH IS IT?  I find either scenario odd.  

Someone else answered it better on the last page, sorry I forgot your name!  Anyway, to keep it simple?  His dad wanted Oleg to be a loyal party member so he could advance in that system.  How loyal would he have been if he knew that system put his mother in a horrible Gulag?

ETA  Oleg's boss told him anyone could be imprisoned for anything back then, stealing a pencil from work, whatever.  (or accidentally taking one home)

3 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

I thought that was one of the reasons Philip met with the priest in the first place, i.e., Philip was the emergency number. 

Exactly, and frankly, I thought Philip was being a bit prissy there.  Meet with the guy, how hard can it be?  It's not as if he's swamped right now.  At all.  Or contact Claudia for the priest and turn him over to her.  Gabe left REALLY fast, decided, and then split.  I'll assume the priest is important as well, otherwise, why introduce him at all, it's not as if we don't have several plot lines going already with no resolution in sight for any of them.

2 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

At this point Oleg would know about it if it were true, wouldn't he? His dad claimed in their conversation that when his wife came out of the camp neither kid had been born yet. Of course, she might have been pregnant, but Oleg looked at her file and I assume that would have her release date. He'd probably notice if it was less than 9 months before he was born.

He'd know.  He saw the dates of his mother's imprisonment, and unlike us, he knows his own birthday.

Edited May 4, 2017 by Umbelina

[VCRTracking]

Keri Russell being pissed at the thought of her child going to a school far away just to follow a crush makes me laugh. He's definitely your son Felicity!

The actress playing Gaad's widow was great. I was surprised as Stan was when she said Gaad would want revenge. Though thinking back on it John Boy Walton did have a vindictive streak under that nice guy exterior.

Loved seeing Martha and Gabriel coming to see her. Her realizing she was a fool makes her even sadder. I did get hungry seeing those sauteed onions and bread though!

[jjj]

I actually thought that when Oleg's dad began to talk about the mother's imprisonment, he was also going to say that not only did he wait for her, he took her back pregnant.  He did look very bitter as he was relating the history -- but bitter could come from many aspects of this.

4 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

That was Philip who had the borscht. She was just sitting with him waiting for Martha to call. We didn't know about any shift change. But it would make sense if there was backup and we just see the one person so it's easier for us.

I thought there was a shift change when that one call-taker was killed -- did he just go on his shift, or did someone else come on duty and discover him murdered?  (And now I remember the current call-taker asking Philip what had happened, and Philip was appropriately vague.) 

[dubbel zout]

7 minutes ago, VCRTracking said:

Keri Russell being pissed at the thought of her child going to a school far away just to follow a crush makes me laugh. He's definitely your son Felicity!

Hee. It's kind of a genius nod on a bunch of levels.

Edited May 4, 2017 by dubbel zout

[sistermagpie]

1 minute ago, jjj said:

I thought there was a shift change when that one call-taker was killed -- did he just go on his shift, or did someone else come on duty and discover him murdered?  (And now I remember the current call-taker asking Philip what had happened, and Philip was appropriately vague.) 

Iirc, we saw George got killed and then didn't see anything else so we didn't know who discovered him. But he also destroyed the phone system before he was killed. P&E seemed to just not be able to contact Kate after that, not knowing what happened. At least that's how I remember it.

19 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Exactly, and frankly, I thought Philip was being a bit prissy there.  Meet with the guy, how hard can it be?  It's not as if he's swamped right now.  At all. 

LOL! You know you're a Jennings when you're raising two kids, one of whom is in a perpetual nervous breakdown and is in charge of monitoring people who might rat you out, working part time at a travel agency, seeing a teenager every couple of weeks to go over hours of bug tapes, keeping up a relationship in another state and regularly dropping in on a second fake family (also pushing for overnights and more time) and you're not swamped at all.

That said, I don't think it was just about the time factor. He doesn't want to be anybody's handler or hand-holder. It reminds me of his reaction to Lucia and Kate. He's really wary of people presenting as less than competent. I honestly think that's a reason he liked Tuan. Even when he was acting like a psycho, he's obviously good at the job.

[Umbelina]

Philip doesn't have to go out of town very often now since they now know it's not poisoned wheat, and they are in a "wait and see" mode.  That's why both cancelled their meetings.

He stops by Kimmie's and smokes a joint and avoids sex once every two weeks usually.

He's barely paid any attention to Tuan.

He doesn't need the Travel agency to make money, his real job is being KGB, and that agency has a full staff to handle things anyway.  He's also got Elizabeth to help with checking on Tuan and handling the mother of Pasha.

This is the lightest we've seen his work load since his vacation. 

He's slacking, and I agree with you about part of his reasoning.  I just don't think Center (or Claudia) will view it that way.  He doesn't need any more doubts about his commitment from Center.  At all.  He's being quite cavalier about it all, and that is dangerous.

[TheBride]

On 5/3/2017 at 5:40 AM, vb68 said:

I wasn't sure what Gabriel was expecting or hoping for with Martha. He seemed genuinely happy to see her when she opened the door.  I can't help thinking he was trying to offer himself up as kind of a companion  He's lonely , too. Just a vibe I got.

I think your vibe was right. And also that Martha won't buy it. Gawd....her life is deadly dull. I think she goes back and it has something to do with Oleg.

[henripootel]

1 hour ago, TheBride said:

I think she goes back and it has something to do with Oleg.

Not possible. She can make Phillip Jennings, the Russians would never ever make a deal that allowed her to compromise such an asset. I'm actually surprised that they didn't just shoot her.  Phillip would never know, and it's the safe, if ruthless, move.  The KGB was nothing if not ruthless.  

[Milburn Stone]

2 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

LOL! You know you're a Jennings when you're raising two kids, one of whom is in a perpetual nervous breakdown and is in charge of monitoring people who might rat you out, working part time at a travel agency, seeing a teenager every couple of weeks to go over hours of bug tapes, keeping up a relationship in another state and regularly dropping in on a second fake family (also pushing for overnights and more time) and you're not swamped at all.

Make that running a travel agency!

[MisterBluxom]

4 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Philip doesn't have to go out of town very often now since they now know it's not poisoned wheat, and they are in a "wait and see" mode.  That's why both cancelled their meetings.

He stops by Kimmie's and smokes a joint and avoids sex once every two weeks usually.

He's barely paid any attention to Tuan.

He doesn't need the Travel agency to make money, his real job is being KGB, and that agency has a full staff to handle things anyway.  He's also got Elizabeth to help with checking on Tuan and handling the mother of Pasha.

This is the lightest we've seen his work load since his vacation. 

He's slacking, and I agree with you about part of his reasoning.  I just don't think Center (or Claudia) will view it that way.  He doesn't need any more doubts about his commitment from Center.  At all.  He's being quite cavalier about it all, and that is dangerous.

I'm curious how much you think Philip is paid by the KGB. Do you think they would give him any more money than he would absolutely need?

My guess is that he wouldn't get one penny more than he absolutely needs. I'd guess the KGB would be afraid of what he might do with any "discretionary money" and would want to keep him on an extremely tight financial leash. Same goes for all the people who work for them.

But I've used the word "guess" twice intentionally because I really have no idea and I'd genuinely love to know what you think about that.

4 hours ago, TheBride said:

I think your vibe was right. And also that Martha won't buy it. Gawd....her life is deadly dull. I think she goes back and it has something to do with Oleg.

Agree. I'm guessing that Martha would figure that as bad as her situation had become, the only thing Gabriel would do for her is to make it worse.

Good for Martha.

[Umbelina]

Let's just say I doubt the KGB would let his travel agency go under.  They need to maintain their current lifestyle, but his real job is with them, not the travel agency.  My guess is they funded that, the house, everything else so Philip and Elizabeth would support themselves in that area/style.  They would do what it takes to keep that going if his real job interfered.

[Chaos Theory]

9 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Let's just say I doubt the KGB would let his travel agency go under.  They need to maintain their current lifestyle, but his real job is with them, not the travel agency.  My guess is they funded that, the house, everything else so Philip and Elizabeth would support themselves in that area/style.  They would do what it takes to keep that going if his real job interfered.

The travel agency is a front.  It is run like one.  You see (I think even this episode) the Jennings go through the books to make sure the agency runs like it should.  However my guess that like all fronts most of the profits are on paper only.  If any government agency did any real check on the books they would find gaping holes.

[Sarah 103]

10 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

At this point Oleg would know about it if it were true, wouldn't he? His dad claimed in their conversation that when his wife came out of the camp neither kid had been born yet. Of course, she might have been pregnant, but Oleg looked at her file and I assume that would have her release date. He'd probably notice if it was less than 9 months before he was born.

It doesn't rule out an affair, because she could have had sex with someone else between her release from the Gulag and when the boys were born. It does rule out one of the boys being the offspring of one of the prison guards. Both boys were born after she was released, and Oleg would be able to count back from his older brother's birthday. 

1 hour ago, Chaos Theory said:

The travel agency is a front.  It is run like one.  You see (I think even this episode) the Jennings go through the books to make sure the agency runs like it should.  However my guess that like all fronts most of the profits are on paper only.  If any government agency did any real check on the books they would find gaping holes.

But there is some money coming into the agency. We have seen them book actual trips for Stan and and Pastor Tim, plus the other employees seem to be doing actual work and not just sitting at thier desks reading magazines. I agree, if the KGB were not giving them money to keep the travel agency afloat, it would probably would have gone out of business already. 

[Gella]

Wives of political bigwigs were routinely put away as enemies of the state. Mikhail Kalinin was the chairman of the Party and his wife spent years in a camp. It only didn't make sense because Burovs shouldn't be old enough for Igor to be a bigwig forty to thirty years prior. I don't think Oleg is not his father's son. He wasn't told because no one was told things like this. Especially the older generations. They knew how to keep secrets.
I still don't understand why Martha is so lonely and bitter. I mean it's not like she was sent to some hamlet in Siberia. Moscow was a big city. And frankly after what she did she didn't really have many options. At first she was duped into helping Phillip but later on she helped him quite willingly. The fact that she survived at all is miraculous. She has to realise on some level that some of it was of her own doing.

[VCRTracking]

I felt bad for Oleg's parents after hearing his dad's story. "She wasn't the sweet girl I knew."

Seeing Kimmy again just made me realize how many plates Phillip and Elizabeth have to keep spinning at the same time. If this really is what being a spy is like, it must be exhausting.

Tuan's outfit reminded me of Marty McFly's in Back to the Future, except he has a green vest instead of a red one.

[AllyB]

I haven't read the thread fully but skimmed it to see if anyone else noticed this. The scene where Henry tells P&E about the school was incredibly well done. Henry was standing by the kitchen island just as Paige was in Stingers and it was obvious that Philip noticed the parallel. His face was full of apprehension as he prepared for Henry to ask what their deal was. And you could see him trying to hurriedly calculate whether they should tell him the truth seeing as how telling Paige had proven disastrous. He tries to convey it to Elizabeth but they don't make their usual unspoken connection. He's also maybe wondering if Henry will be deemed a better fit as an agent than Paige and he's fearful for his son. When Henry tells them what he wants, before Philip's bafflement and hurt that Henry wants to more than he already has, there is a split second of relief on his face.

Edited May 5, 2017 by AllyB

[qtpye]

Quote

 

I'm curious how much you think Philip is paid by the KGB. Do you think they would give him any more money than he would absolutely need?

My guess is that he wouldn't get one penny more than he absolutely needs. I'd guess the KGB would be afraid of what he might do with any "discretionary money" and would want to keep him on an extremely tight financial leash. Same goes for all the people who work for them.

But I've used the word "guess" twice intentionally because I really have no idea and I'd genuinely love to know what you think about that

 

I have no idea how valid the information is, but this gives you an idea about the pay rate of spies and assets, though more CIA, then KGB.

https://www.quora.com/How-much-do-spies-get-paid

[Moose135]

6 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

Tuan's outfit reminded me of Marty McFly's in Back to the Future, except he has a green vest instead of a red one.

That was intentional...from another thread:

[sistermagpie]

11 hours ago, Sarah 103 said:

I agree, if the KGB were not giving them money to keep the travel agency afloat, it would probably would have gone out of business already. 

Yes, it seems like they do do actual agency work themselves. There's been times where they're annoyed about having to re-book something etc. and we know the employees are all real. If it seemed too fake the employees would know something was up and wonder if they were working for a front. Presumably if the need extra money they launder it through the place--I believe IRL Illegals are paid quite well. That is, they get a salary, not just the bare minimum they need to live on. Otherwise they'd be more tempted to defect. 

Also the do seem to spend their days there by default. If they're out of town on a job or whatever they don't, but it seems like the employees think it's normal for one or both of them to be there, and they ask questions about things. So they do have a day job on top of all this other stuff. They're not just the mysterious owners. Their employees have a friendly relationship with them. They tell them when they're not going to be there etc.

[RedHawk]

31 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Yes, it seems like they do do actual agency work themselves. There's been times where they're annoyed about having to re-book something etc. and we know the employees are all real. If it seemed too fake the employees would know something was up and wonder if they were working for a front. Presumably if the need extra money they launder it through the place--I believe IRL Illegals are paid quite well. That is, they get a salary, not just the bare minimum they need to live on. Otherwise they'd be more tempted to defect. 

Also the do seem to spend their days there by default. If they're out of town on a job or whatever they don't, but it seems like the employees think it's normal for one or both of them to be there, and they ask questions about things. So they do have a day job on top of all this other stuff. They're not just the mysterious owners. Their employees have a friendly relationship with them. They tell them when they're not going to be there etc.

I've long wanted a bit more info on the travel agency. Would love to get more than a glimpse of the one guy who seems like the office manager and get a bit of his story -- how long he has worked there, what he thinks of his bosses, do they get an office Christmas party, etc. 

[SunnyBeBe]

Me too.  I've always just believed that their travel agency is very above board, so that any review, audit, etc., would pass with flying colors.  The Jennings seem to live within their means.  P did buy a sports car, but, that's not so outrageous.  One trip to Disney World and Europe for mother and daughter.  Seems reasonable to me.  I suppose they fly on their missions with fake identities, so, not sure who pays for those tickets.  Not likely their travel agency is involved though. 

[sistermagpie]

7 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

The Jennings seem to live within their means.  P did buy a sports car, but, that's not so outrageous.  

And he specifically connected the car to business doing better, so I'd bet the "real" Philip Jennings could have done it too.

[Moose135]

18 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

 One trip to Disney World and Europe for mother and daughter.  Seems reasonable to me.

Especially since they likely got an "insider" deal on the trips due to their travel agency connection.

[qtpye]

1 hour ago, RedHawk said:

I've long wanted a bit more info on the travel agency. Would love to get more than a glimpse of the one guy who seems like the office manager and get a bit of his story -- how long he has worked there, what he thinks of his bosses, do they get an office Christmas party, etc. 

 

1 hour ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Me too.  I've always just believed that their travel agency is very above board, so that any review, audit, etc., would pass with flying colors.  The Jennings seem to live within their means.  P did buy a sports car, but, that's not so outrageous.  One trip to Disney World and Europe for mother and daughter.  Seems reasonable to me.  I suppose they fly on their missions with fake identities, so, not sure who pays for those tickets.  Not likely their travel agency is involved though. 

Wouldn't it be crazy if that office manager guy was doing something illegal, without the Jennings knowing it and the police busts him for it (maybe credit card theft) and that is how the law comes down on them?  They investigate the office manager and then start looking more closely at the owners.... 

[dubbel zout]

15 minutes ago, qtpye said:

Wouldn't it be crazy if that office manager guy was doing something illegal, without the Jennings knowing it and the police busts him for it (maybe credit card theft) and that is how the law comes down on them?  They investigate the office manager and then start looking more closely at the owners.... 

That would be ironic. However, I think that the travel agency employees had to have been vetted by the KGB (explicitly or otherwise) so that this type of scenario would be unlikely. And I'd think the KGB would also keep an eye on the agency itself to make sure it doesn't draw the wrong kind of attention.

[Dowel Jones]

I can fully imagine that the Rezidentura has some kind of business section whose chief routinely tears his hair out with frustrations over paying the bills for all the illegals, and trying to keep the accounting straight so the Centre doesn't come down hard on him.  Just like any of our government agencies.

[Razzberry]

1 hour ago, dubbel zout said:

However, I think that the travel agency employees had to have been vetted by the KGB (explicitly or otherwise) so that this type of scenario would be unlikely. And I'd think the KGB would also keep an eye on the agency itself to make sure it doesn't draw the wrong kind of attention.

You're probably right, but this travel agency has been in business many years and we know so little about it.  Do their employees gossip or wonder why they spend so much time shut in that office together?  Do they have TGIF office parties?  Do they even have names?   I wanna know.   Instead we hear P&E once again discuss Henry's math skills.

[stagmania]

On 5/3/2017 at 10:22 PM, shura said:

This disillusionment kind of paints P and E as very naive, I think. They knew they were stealing a weapon in that virus. Did they really believe it was never going to be used as a weapon if need be?

They had faith that it would only be used as a defensive weapon, if circumstances left no other choice. Now they're realizing their government may be guilty of the same things it accuses the enemy of. It's really not hard to believe they bought into it; look no further than the reverence for military in the US.

On 5/4/2017 at 1:14 AM, Gella said:

She would have access to clothes. And makeup. 

I thought her drab clothes and styling were an indicator of her depression, not necessarily the clothing and makeup budget they gave her. She doesn't feel any reason to dress up and look nice in her current solitary existence.

4 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Also the do seem to spend their days there by default. If they're out of town on a job or whatever they don't, but it seems like the employees think it's normal for one or both of them to be there, and they ask questions about things. So they do have a day job on top of all this other stuff. 

I'm laughing at the idea that their current workload is "light". For most people, just being small business owners, raising two kids and keeping house would be viewed as a very full plate.

On a side note: I think I may be the only person in this forum that's just not that into Oleg.

Edited May 5, 2017 by stagmania

[Tetraneutron]

On 2017-05-04 at 0:50 PM, sistermagpie said:

At this point Oleg would know about it if it were true, wouldn't he? His dad claimed in their conversation that when his wife came out of the camp neither kid had been born yet. Of course, she might have been pregnant, but Oleg looked at her file and I assume that would have her release date. He'd probably notice if it was less than 9 months before he was born.

Oleg is the younger son. The older one is the one who died. I don't think this will go anywhere as a Who's Your Daddy plot is cheap and soapy and doesn't explain anyone's motivations in the first place. Why would this matter now, to anyone 40 years after the fact? The point of the Burov plotline is how dysfunctional and cruel the Soviet system is, how even high-ranking rich true believers who do everything right can't escape it. 

22 hours ago, TheBride said:

I think your vibe was right. And also that Martha won't buy it. Gawd....her life is deadly dull. I think she goes back and it has something to do with Oleg.

Why do people want this? This isn't a soap opera. We aren't watching a show where all the attractive male characters have hot torrid affairs with all the attractive female ones. Having sex with some random wouldn't make her life better. Why would Oleg even like her, a weak, stupid American who betrayed her country, not out of ideals but for sex? Why would Martha like Oleg, a powerful man who works for the system that ruined her life?

13 hours ago, Gella said:

I still don't understand why Martha is so lonely and bitter. I mean it's not like she was sent to some hamlet in Siberia. Moscow was a big city. And frankly after what she did she didn't really have many options. At first she was duped into helping Phillip but later on she helped him quite willingly. The fact that she survived at all is miraculous. She has to realise on some level that some of it was of her own doing.

She DOES realize that, which is partly why she's so beaten down. That she's somewhat responsible for the shitshow that is her life. The fact that she's in Moscow doesn't matter. First, it's the collapse of the Soviet Union and the place is shit unless you're very rich or well-connected. And it's not like she'd be permitted to live the life of a tourist, visiting museums, meeting other expats, living a life. Even now, Russia is very restrictive on what they let foreign residents do, back in the early 80s it would be a million times worse. The Center isn't running a cultural exchange program. Probably the reverse, in fact - do you think the USSR leadership wants this former American talking to Soviet citizens about how much she hates Russia and how great her life was when she could shop ay big supermarkets and see movies and travel? We saw this in the first season - they offer defectors just enough money to live off, language lessons, and eventually maybe a McJob where they can't cause trouble or influence anyone. 

Gabriel is visiting her not because he likes her. He doesn't care about her. To Gabriel, she's the dumb gullible American Philip was able to bang into betraying her country, who then went crazy. He's visiting her because Philip asked him and he has nothing better to do.

[sistermagpie]

2 minutes ago, Tetraneutron said:

Oleg is the younger son.

Do we know this? I've honestly not been sure and wound up thinking Oleg was the older one. Am I forgetting a time when they made it clear?

2 minutes ago, Tetraneutron said:

And it's not like she'd be permitted to live the life of a tourist, visiting museums, meeting other expats, living a life....We saw this in the first season - they offer defectors just enough money to live off, language lessons, and eventually maybe a McJob where they can't cause trouble or influence anyone. 

I don't remembering seeing anything in s1 about people being given just enough money to live on or whatever. Gregory was offered a job, language lessons to give him the skills to have a life in Russia. 

4 minutes ago, Tetraneutron said:

He's visiting her because Philip asked him and he has nothing better to do.

I don't think Philip asked her to visit Martha. I think Gabriel did it for his own reasons. Philip wanted Martha's family to know she was okay, but he didn't seem to see any point to doing anything else.

[Orbert]

I figured Gabriel visited Martha because he was lonely and didn't know anyone else.  As something of a follow-up to Claudia's comment before about no one back home even remembering or caring about her, Gabriel mentioned that he has family, but they're "not close".  So he visits the only person he knows.

I thought it was interesting how he naturally fell into "handler mode".  Telling her things he thought she would want to hear, like how things will get better once her language skills improve, how they'll set her up with a job and such.  He didn't have to do that, but he couldn't think of anything else to talk about.

[SunnyBeBe]

At first I thought that was a piece of bread on Martha's plate.  Then, most around here said it was a potato.  Are we sure which one it was?

[dubbel zout]

It was a baked potato. Martha was sautéing mushrooms (and maybe onions) as a topping, along with a dollop of sour cream. It looked really good to me.

[Chaos Theory]

On 5/4/2017 at 0:00 PM, henripootel said:

Am I the only one thinking that Oleg's dad isn't Oleg's biological dad?  

That would be far too much a soap opera for me and so far the show has avoided the worst soapy stuff.    Honestly I think it was exactly like Oleg's father said.  His wife went away and came back different.  They stayed together even though they might not have loved each other anymore.  

Edited May 6, 2017 by Chaos Theory

[shura]

6 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

6 hours ago, Tetraneutron said:

Oleg is the younger son.

Do we know this? I've honestly not been sure and wound up thinking Oleg was the older one. Am I forgetting a time when they made it clear?

Oleg is the older one. His dad said "Your mother got out... We had you, then Zhenya" in this episode. 

7 hours ago, stagmania said:

They had faith that it would only be used as a defensive weapon, if circumstances left no other choice. Now they're realizing their government may be guilty of the same things it accuses the enemy of. It's really not hard to believe they bought into it; look no further than the reverence for military in the US.

You know, I am not sure it's even possible to use a biological weapon defensively. You can't really deploy it against invaders in your territory because it will start killing your own population. I have no idea what Philip meant when he said "maybe it wasn't about protecting us after a nuclear attack." Who, and for what,  is going to send into a nuclear wasteland troops that can be fought off with bioweapons? And if we think that a defensive bioweapon is something kept for deterrence, that still implies willingness to use it against the enemy in the enemy's territory, which is hardly defensive when it comes to it.

8 hours ago, Dowel Jones said:

I can fully imagine that the Rezidentura has some kind of business section whose chief routinely tears his hair out with frustrations over paying the bills for all the illegals, and trying to keep the accounting straight so the Centre doesn't come down hard on him.  Just like any of our government agencies.

"Mr. Jennings, please, I told you we can only reimburse mileage for one car trip to Harrisburg. Please don't submit more than one even if you used three cars." True story - my colleague once had to explain to our finance person that no, Naked Juice is not an adult movie, but a drink he bought during a business trip and would like reimbursed.

[Dev F]

12 hours ago, RedHawk said:

I've long wanted a bit more info on the travel agency. Would love to get more than a glimpse of the one guy who seems like the office manager and get a bit of his story -- how long he has worked there, what he thinks of his bosses, do they get an office Christmas party, etc. 

Am I misremembering, or have there been subtle implications that Stavos, the main employee guy, may be gay? I seem to recall a reference in one of the earlier seasons to a male roommate or something like that. I always wondered if that was going to feature in a storyline at any point.

Edited to add: Okay, yeah, I found the reference, from the first episode of season 2. They throw a party for Elizabeth at the travel agency when she returns from "taking care of her sick aunt," and when it's over Philip tries to get Stavos to take the rest of the cake home. He replies, "My roommate is on a diet. He'd kill me if I bring home cake." That's . . . a little suggestive, yes?

Edited May 6, 2017 by Dev F

[RedHawk]

22 minutes ago, Dev F said:

Am I misremembering, or have there been subtle implications that Stavos, the main employee guy, may be gay? I seem to recall a reference in one of the earlier seasons to a male roommate or something like that. I always wondered if that was going to feature in a storyline at any point.

Edited to add: Okay, yeah, I found the reference, from the first episode of season 2. They throw a party for Elizabeth at the travel agency when she returns from "taking care of her sick aunt," and when it's over Philip tries to get Stavos to take the rest of the cake home. He replies, "My roommate is on a diet. He'd kill me if I bring home cake." That's . . . a little suggestive, yes?

A roommate might be just a roommate. That said, the travel agency is in Dupont Circle, which was the central gay area/neighborhood in early '80s DC so... maybe!

Edited May 6, 2017 by RedHawk

[TheBride]

16 hours ago, Tetraneutron said:

Why do people want this? This isn't a soap opera. We aren't watching a show where all the attractive male characters have hot torrid affairs with all the attractive female ones. Having sex with some random wouldn't make her life better. Why would Oleg even like her, a weak, stupid American who betrayed her country, not out of ideals but for sex? Why would Martha like Oleg, a powerful man who works for the system that ruined her life?

You're the one who mentions sexual attraction. I was thinking of an espionage development, and that is very possible. Martha and Oleg are both much deeper than what you are suggesting in terms of a relationship between them. 

On 5/4/2017 at 9:22 PM, MissBluxom said:

My guess is that he wouldn't get one penny more than he absolutely needs. I'd guess the KGB would be afraid of what he might do with any "discretionary money" and would want to keep him on an extremely tight financial leash. Same goes for all the people who work for them.

The KGB spared no expense to populate the USA with sleepers. To win the cold war--both the arms race and espionage dominance--they took food off the shelves of their people. To some extent (more than we know) this is still the practice of Russian espionage.

[TheBride]

On 5/4/2017 at 6:15 PM, henripootel said:

Not possible. She can make Phillip Jennings, the Russians would never ever make a deal that allowed her to compromise such an asset. I'm actually surprised that they didn't just shoot her.  Phillip would never know, and it's the safe, if ruthless, move.  The KGB was nothing if not ruthless.  

I agree with you in that they might have just shot her. The KGB was not as flawless as this show seems to portray. It is possible that both Martha and Oleg get back to the states--how and why is to be seen. However, I agree that Oleg has more leverage to return than Martha, she would just come "home" to a jail cell, but she already feels she's in jail in Moscow. This--of course--may all just be dropped from the plot altogether!

[MisterBluxom]

17 minutes ago, TheBride said:

The KGB spared no expense to populate the USA with sleepers. To win the cold war--both the arms race and espionage dominance--they took food off the shelves of their people. To some extent (more than we know) this is still the practice of Russian espionage.

OK. I believe you. This would not be the first time that my "guesses" have been wrong.

I find your post to be very interesting and I thank you for that information. It is certainly believable.

I've always thought the KGB was cheap and heartless. I just had the targets of their cheapness and heartlessness wrong. It's the Russian citizens who they treat so badly and not the people who work for them. Well, that is definitely very plausible.

Thank you for clearing that up.

[henripootel]

On 5/6/2017 at 8:37 AM, TheBride said:

However, I agree that Oleg has more leverage to return than Martha, she would just come "home" to a jail cell,

If she was smart (and a bit ruthless), she could have gone to the FBI and spilled the beans, saying she wanted a pardon and 10 million bucks in exchange for an actual Russian sleeper.  They might well have gone for that deal.  At worst she could have thrown herself on the mercy of the FBI and helped them find Phillip.  Like as not she'd never have seen the inside of a court room and she'd have gotten a nice pension and a job in Omaha.  

Beats fleeing to the USSR.  Were I her, I'd have assumed I'd never see the motherland, that I'd be shot and dumped at sea as soon as we reached international waters.  This'd still be Martha's out if she every wants to end it - just make a beeline for American Embassy.  She'll never make it. 

Edited May 8, 2017 by henripootel

[Sarah 103]

22 minutes ago, henripootel said:

If she was smart (and a bit ruthless), she could have gone to the FBI and said spilled the beans, saying she wanted a pardon and 10 million bucks in exchange for an actual Russian sleeper.  They might well have gone for that deal.  At worst she could have thrown herself on the mercy of the FBI and helped them find Phillip.

Martha wasn't smart or ruthless she was in love, and romantic love makes you stupid. (This may be the result of my recent class on film noir, and all the old radio shows about detectives that I've listened to). 

[crgirl412]

17 hours ago, shura said:

Oleg is the older one. His dad said "Your mother got out... We had you, then Zhenya" in this episode. 

You know, I am not sure it's even possible to use a biological weapon defensively. You can't really deploy it against invaders in your territory because it will start killing your own population. I have no idea what Philip meant when he said "maybe it wasn't about protecting us after a nuclear attack." Who, and for what,  is going to send into a nuclear wasteland troops that can be fought off with bioweapons? And if we think that a defensive bioweapon is something kept for deterrence, that still implies willingness to use it against the enemy in the enemy's territory, which is hardly defensive when it comes to it.

"Mr. Jennings, please, I told you we can only reimburse mileage for one car trip to Harrisburg. Please don't submit more than one even if you used three cars." True story - my colleague once had to explain to our finance person that no, Naked Juice is not an adult movie, but a drink he bought during a business trip and would like reimbursed.

I am literally LOLing over here!!  That is too funny!!! 

[Chaos Theory]

11 hours ago, TheBride said:

I agree with you in that they might have just shot her. The KGB was not as flawless as this show seems to portray. It is possible that both Martha and Oleg get back to the states--how and why is to be seen. However, I agree that Oleg has more leverage to return than Martha, she would just come "home" to a jail cell, but she already feels she's in jail in Moscow. This--of course--may all just be dropped from the plot altogether!

Right now Martha is truly alone in a country where she doesn't speak the language.  She has two people who come to visit her as part of their job.   They probably spend a couple hours with her a couple times a week.  For the most part she is truly alone.    Which for Martha is a fate worse then anything the United States could have done to her.  Martha was alone and lonely before Clarke found her and now she is alone and lonely again.  She has probably spent all her time going over every detail of her relationship with Clarke and every moment he screwed her over.

If she did go back even if she gave them nothing she would be in an American prison surrounded by criminals yes but by people who she can at least communicate with and hopefully gets visits from her parents.

That is among the worst cases.

if she was especially pissed off she could tell the FBI everything she knows and get herself s pretty good deal.  She may not know who Clarke really is but she could give the FBI enough information to get them closer to Philip.

Quote

Martha wasn't smart or ruthless she was in love, and romantic love makes you stupid. (This may be the result of my recent class on film noir, and all the old radio shows about detectives that I've listened to). 

But she has also had months to stew in her loneliness which could in all honestly have made her both smart and ruthless.  What she isn't is "connected."  If she ever met someone who was....say Oleg,  there is no telling what she might do at this point in the game.    

There is a reason for the expression "Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned."

And who has been more scorned then Martha?  

Edited May 7, 2017 by Chaos Theory

[henripootel]

3 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

There is no telling what she might do at this point in the game.    

My guess is that Martha's minder has orders that cover the possibility that she might make for the american embassy, which is why she likely carries a small-caliber handgun.  I'm actually a bit surprised that Martha has an apartment in Moscow - they could obviate this possibility by putting Martha in Minsk or anywhere else. 

Might be very interesting if the CIA gets wind that Martha is in Moscow.  I don't think she'd be in any danger but they might be very interested in approaching her.  They might guess that she isn't delighted by living in the worker's paradise, and may indeed know some interesting things.  Be a hell of a development if they smuggled her back to America, much more tension for the Jennings, and Claudia now that I think of it. 

Edited May 7, 2017 by henripootel