S01.E05: Episode 5

[ElectricBoogaloo]

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Emily is desperate to escape Lydia's house, but when Lydia catches her, Emily is brutally punished. All her hopes rest with Charles, but should she risk his life in order to spare her own? Lydia has other troubles to deal with when she discovers one of the girls she procured has disappeared. What is Cunliffe really up to and can she risk being a part of it? Margaret is thrilled when Lord Fallon shows an interest in Lucy. But she will have to overcome her aversion if she is finally to snare herself a keeper. Charlotte is also on the hunt for a new keeper, determined to leave Howard. But when Haxby discovers her intentions, events take a horrifying turn. Florence is recovering, and desperate for Amelia to continue their preaching, though terrified the work could place her in harm's way. As Amelia's new friendship with Violet blossoms she finds herself pulled apart by the two women in her life.

[JennyExiled]

I watched the sneak peak on Hulu a half dozen times trying to figure out who gets slapped and what the hell was going on in the last few seconds! 

[OtterMommy]

That was a bit of a dark turn from the last episode.  I can't say that I blame Margaret for turning Emily out when she escaped Quigley's.  Emily has shown herself to be willing to step on whomever she needs to in order to get what she wants--which isn't necessarily a damning character trait.  However, she seems to lack the common sense to make the right steps and, instead, she ended up on the streets again.

I'm still trying to figure out how I feel about Margaret trying to buy Harriet children--and I think Margaret is just as conflicted about it.  She clearly doesn't begrudge Harriet for wanting her children and I think she wants to help--but "paying off Harriet's debt" sounds a lot like "buying Harriet's children whose current master considers them slaves."

Rape is *never* comfortable to watch, but I give kudos to the show--and to Charlotte--for calling it what it is.  I do hope we've seen the end of Haxby...but I was squicked out to see how chummy Charlotte was with the Reptons (and I was hoping we had seen the end of the Reptons, but I guess not...).  I also got icked out by the fact that Lord Repton admitted that he wants young girls and Charlotte.  

I wasn't as held by this episode as I have been by others, but it did keep the plot going for me, which is really all I can ask for.  

[dleighg]

1 minute ago, OtterMommy said:

I'm still trying to figure out how I feel about Margaret trying to buy Hannah's children--and I think Margaret is just as conflicted about it.  

(Harriet)  It seems Harriet is in a very poor negotiating position, as the son certainly knows he can extract almost any price for the children.

[Slakkie]

The bird in a cage is how I thought of Charlotte, beautiful clothes, big house but trapped by a life.  When offered to leave, she was too scared.  I do love the respect she was given when she discussed her treatment.  SHe is my favorite character by far.  That and the french chick who says crap about her men LOL

[snowwhyte]

This episode was difficult to watch. There are so many awful characters and i get tense whenever they are on screen. Given Sir George's jealousy and controlling behavior his attack on Charlotte did not come as a surprise. Plus forcing her to attend the dinner and trying to humiliate her was further evidence of his weakness and disregard for anyone but himself. It was pretty clear to everyone what kind of man he is. I hope he gets ostracized from society.

Lord Fallon was also very creepy. Lucy was right to be wary of him. You would think Margaret would be a better judge of character but i think she is blinded by the idea of Lucy having an upper class placement. Lucy is clearly not suited to being a harlot and Charlotte is reaching out for help but she thinks having rich "protectors" will offer them comfort and security. The problem is the more powerful the protector the fewer constraints there are on their behaviour.  Even if Lord Fallon signs a contract for Lucy there is nothing they could do if he locked her away somewhere and abused her.  I can believe he's part of that club that likes to rape virgins and possibly killed the last one.

Emily Lacey is not a pleasant person but i was glad she got away. I'm also glad Nancy took her in. I actually think that she should consider asking Nancy to teach her to be a dominatrix. I think she might be suited to that.

[nemesis]

I also get where Margaret is coming from by not taking Emily in.  As pitiful as she looked at that time, she'd already shown a complete lack of loyalty by running off to Margaret's enemy.  Margaret hasn't really had problems finding women for her house since Emily left (two that should be good at earning money) so she doesn't really have an incentive to take Emily back except for pity.  The french girl was surprised there were no locks, but I can see why there don't need to be.  The women are probably in one of the better situations they can find themselves in, given their occupation, except for maybe finding a "keeper" who isn't a completely awful person, but, there don't seem to be any of those around. 

At least poor Lucy has a sense of self-preservation and knows a predator when she sees one.  Sadly, her fear is part of the attraction for him and Margaret apparently doesn't see it (he hides it well, I guess).

As romantic as this whole proposal to whisk Charlotte away sounds... the reality is more like leaving her family and country behind to run off with someone who is pretty close to being a stranger.  That sounds incredibly dangerous.  Even if he really is a decent guy they'd still be going penniless to America with no real prospects.  Does she actually have any skills other then being a harlot?  Would he be able to support the two of them with the kind of jobs he gets?  Then, if he really isn't a decent guy, or if they just don't work out, she'd be stranded on another continent with no support.  I can see why she'd try for the route of packing her bags and heading back to her mother's house instead.  At least she's not letting that idiot get away with raping her and she stands up for herself.  I'm afraid for her when she gets back to the house, though.

[OtterMommy]

1 hour ago, dleighg said:

(Harriet)  It seems Harriet is in a very poor negotiating position, as the son certainly knows he can extract almost any price for the children.

Ah yes...thanks for the correction on the name!  I usually have the IMDB page open while posting about this show to keep all the Lords straight--apparently I should have done that this time!

[tennisgurl]

I really hope this is the end of Charlotte being stuck with Howard. What a piece of shit. When even his other rich friends, who clearly look at Charlotte like a rat in a nice hat who showed up for cocktails, are clearly grossed out by his behavior towards Charlotte, you know your an asshole. Too bad for him the Reptons weren't around, they probably would have given him high fives. I have no idea where Charlotte goes from here, because she seems to have no real desire to find a new keeper, but I don't think she would be happy going back to her moms whorehouse again (and I don't know if Margaret would let her stay too long anyway) either. At this point, maybe running off to the states with Mr. Marney to open up a tavern or their own high class brothel in New York or Philadelphia is looking like a pretty good idea. They can laugh about the gross Reptons and how they never have to touch their nasty asses ever again.  She might not know him very well, but they have run into each other at orgy night, then afterwards, both in bed with people they've slept with for cash, and can still feel comfortable flirting at a bar the next day, so I say they're operating on the same wave length. It might not be as fancy as her life with her Keepers, but at least she could be with a guy she actually likes, and not someone whos just a paying customer. But Charlotte is a pragmatist, so who knows.

Poor Lucy is so not made for this line of work, and she totally knows it. As much as Margaret sees this as Lucys only possible path, I feel like she would be better off and happier doing something else. Maybe she could go to the US with her sister and Mr. Marney and become their bookkeeper or piano player or something? Or she could go to a smaller town or city and settle down with some nice normal guy and have some kids. Maybe Margaret would hate that life, but Lucy might not. Otherwise, I don't see this ending well for the poor thing.

Speaking of things not ending well, the romance between Amelia and her new girlfriend is sweet, but I see tragedy on the horizon for them. Poor Amelia, she's a lot like Lucy in a lot of ways. She's a nice young girl who is being forced into her mothers lifestyle, even though its clear its not the life for her. They both love their mom and their moms love them, but their respective moms don't see that their daughters hate the paths they've chosen for them. Amelia clearly doesn't like preaching her moms Hellfire Speeches (even her preaching was more about forgiveness and love than her moms ever are) and is drawn towards the wilder lifestyle, and, you know, is a lesbian probably, so that's an issue. I fear she might become a victim of the creepy rich guy eating virgins or something.

Reptons sound like an evil race of aliens from Doctor Who. Makes me hope they get exterminated by Daleks in a kickass cross over episode.

Edited April 27, 2017 by tennisgurl

[dleighg]

10 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

even her preaching her was more about forgiveness and love than her moms ever are

It was quite noticeable that immediately after Mrs. Scanwell told her to preach that whoring leads inevitably to hellfire (probably dealing with her own shame) Amelia preached a very modern New Testament version of a loving and forgiving god. 

[wonderchica05]

I'm glad Emily escaped, even at the expense of Quigly Jr. I agree she could have a future as a dominatrix!

My girl Fanny is knocked up! I can't believe Frenchie is the only one to have noticed. I wonder what she's going to do with the baby. Fanny examining her nails while being serviced made me laugh out loud.

What's Fallon's deal with the pomegranates? I had something else in mind when he said he wanted to eat. Or, more nefariously, maybe he's a cannibal and that's where the virgin girl went?

Poor Charlotte. She was being rejected left and right. I was both creeped out and amused when she flopped into bed with the  Reptons. That was a great scene.

[kieyra]

The show caused me to make the same mistake about George that Charlotte did--assuming that because he was ridiculous, he wasn't a threat. Other people saw this coming way before I did.

What's that line--men are afraid that women will laugh at them, women are afraid that men will kill them.

[Ripley68]

Good on Charlotte for taking revenge. What an idiot George is.  I really wish there was at least one decent rich guy - but they're all goobers.  Wouldn't the french girl be a good candidate for a keeper? Shes's beautiful and educated, and apparently accomplished.  Doesn't the baud get a take of the contract between the mistress and the keeper?

I hope that nothing evil comes of Emily being turned down by Margaret. Margaret didn't do it meanly, adn it was very pragmatic.  I liked her trying to smooth things over with Quigley.  Glad Quigley junior isn't dead.  So, the only decent man we've met is Will - right?

Now that Lucy has finally said she isn't cut out for this, I really wish Margaret had listened.

[OtterMommy]

7 hours ago, snowwhyte said:

This episode was difficult to watch. There are so many awful characters and i get tense whenever they are on screen.

I don't think this is exactly what you were going for, but it brought something on my mind.  For the most part, the characters in this show are very unlikable.  Frankly, the only one I can say that I like is Harriet. However, even if characters aren't likable, many of them do have admirable qualities.  Despite her methods, Margaret does care deeply for her daughters and she does take care of the girls in her employ (as long as they don't betray her).  Charlotte is anything but dumb and, while she wouldn't think twice about using a man, she does at least have ambition.  Emily is clearly *trying* to find her own way in this crazy world.  All that, I think, is a big part of what makes this such a successful show for me.

 

40 minutes ago, Ripley68 said:

I really wish there was at least one decent rich guy - but they're all goobers.  Wouldn't the french girl be a good candidate for a keeper? Shes's beautiful and educated, and apparently accomplished.  Doesn't the baud get a take of the contract between the mistress and the keeper?

Well, if there was a decent rich guy, why would he even be in this story?

I was wondering the same thing about Frenchie (I know she has a name, but she's Frenchie in my mind).  She has a poise many of the other girls do not, she's very lovely, and as long as the man doesn't understand French, she sounds exotic! Of course, that may be one reason why she was wanting to go to Margaret's house.  I can't see Lydia being willing for one of her top earners to leave the business for the patronage of a man.

ETA: About the contract.  There probably is a payment to the madame once a girl becomes kept, but it is probably a one-time payment.  So, while it might be a sizable sum of money, it is still less than what the girl can bring in by working in the brothel--hence, making it not an especially good deal for the madame.  If it were to the madame's benefit for the girls to find a keeper, Margaret would be doing so for all the women in her employ.  Instead, she's only doing it for her daughters, and she is pretty clear she is doing it so that her daughters--and not herself--will be taken care of.

[Arynm]

Omg! Charlotte would kill as one of the first high class brothels in America. She would do so well. Let's hope she does this and we get to see it.

[kieyra]

Ok, so the guy who wanted Charlotte to go to America has been a gigolo from the start? I'm so confused by this character. I either missed an early scene or they've underwritten the hell out of him.

... or they intentionally put the idea of "romance" into this nebulous, almost irrelevant context. We know we're supposed to wonder about the two of them, but I don't even know the guy's name, and Charlotte doesn't exactly seem to be pining for him. This doesn't feel like the kind of show that's going to require her to be "rescued" by him, but I'll be damned if I can figure out his story function.

Yes, I'm going to do this every week.

AV Club is reviewing:

http://www.avclub.com/tvclub/devils-details-merciless-harlots-254312

Edited April 27, 2017 by kieyra

[pamplemousse]

I can't remember the last time I watched an hour of tv that made me want to do grievous bodily harm to so many characters ugh! Fuck Vile in every way Sir George, Pedophile Repton, Creepy as Shit Lord Fallon, Nasty Cunliffe, and even Thoughtless and Stupid Daniel Marney (does he even realize how hard life during that time in America would be, especially for a woman like Charlotte?), and the Odious and Racist Benjamin Lennox. With that being said, this show is addictive, I'm fascinated by every character even all the ones I can't stand.

Even though that scene with the upper class people turning on Sir George at dinner was so satisfying to watch, it was one of the few times this show rang false to me. I don't think the upper class at that time would even believe that it was possible for someone of their social standing like Sir George to rape someone of Charlotte's social standing, that wouldn't be rape to them at all nor would they side with her and look down on Sir George no matter how much they personally disliked him. Class lines were drawn very strictly and I don't think the upper class would ever side with a lower class person against one of their own, no matter how despicable and unlikeable he is. I don't think they would've even acknowledged Charlotte aside from being shocked and dismayed that Sir George brought her, I think they would've spent the rest of dinner ignoring her and pretending she wasn't there. 

I'm very worried about Lucy, Lord Fallon has turned out even creepier than I thought he would be. I can't figure him out but he was looking and acting more and more like Voldemort in that bedroom scene. I did laugh at this exchange after Lucy said she didn't want Lord Fallon as her keeper:

Margaret: Did he hurt you?

Lucy: He made me eat seeds.

(My gf: And that's not even a euphemism.)

I don't really get what Lord Fallon was trying to do in that scene, other than being creepy as hell. The actor is great imo, so good at portraying refined cruelty and hinting at the sadism underneath. He came across like a serial killer to me.

I understand where Margaret is coming from in wanting Lucy to have a wealthy and socially prominent keeper, that's the only way a woman born in their social class can ever hope to rise up in the world and get some financial stability and a comfortable life. Even when Lord Fallon tires of her, I think it was standard of these sorts of contracts that the man would provide an apartment and a large enough severance bonus for the mistress to live on fairly comfortably for the rest of her life even though she was no longer his mistress. It was one of the few ways a woman born of that social class could secure her future and eventually live financially comfortably and independent of any man. Lucy is young and was up until recently relatively sheltered so I guess she doesn't understand that what she was asking for -- to live on at the brothel but not be a harlot -- wouldn't work, she would be a burden to Margaret and all the girls at the brothel working as harlots, another mouth to feed who is not bringing in any money. Unfortunately, I think back in those days, women of Lucy's social class couldn't really make any money except for being a harlot, there wasn't much in the way of jobs. She can't even go to the countryside and marry a nice farmer, no farmer would have her given her mother was a harlot and is now a bawd, she was raised in a brothel, and she's already worked as a harlot all be it very unwillingly. It's sad that Lucy, simply by the tragedy of which socioeconomic class she was born in, really has no other options.

Sir George is just absolutely despicable, the actor who plays him is fantastic at making me loathe his character utterly. Definitely a character I love to hate.

Seriously, all the acting in this show from everyone, even the smallest of parts (love Betsy Fletcher, I really hope Margaret takes her on!) is terrific imo. Lesley Manville is absolutely killing it, she was so good in every single one of her scenes. Charlotte is finding herself in an increasingly untenable situation, I wonder if desperation will drive her to Quigley's door since Margaret basically said she couldn't come back to the brothel.

I don't blame Margaret in not wanting to take Emily Lacey back. I love the character but that girl is nothing but trouble. Even when she was working for Margaret, being the biggest moneymaker in Margaret's brothel, and being treated well, she was full of complaints and dissatisfaction. And yes, she's very cunning, unscrupulous, thinks too highly of herself and her attractions as a harlot, and disloyal -- even to those who try to help her.

[HeySandyStrange]

I want to say Scrappy Irish Hottie serves the purpose of making Charlotte think about what she really wants. Does she really want to play mistress to high society patrons and depend on them for everything, or does she want to be her own woman? He also treats her like a person and the have a nice, down to earth type friendship forming. They are both scrappers and both have drive. Also, Irish Hottie is one of the few non-creepy, not pathetic, decentish men on the show. For Charlotte being around him must be a breath of fresh air after the stuck up idiots she deals with.

Quote

I was wondering the same thing about Frenchie (I know she has a name, but she's Frenchie in my mind).  She has a poise many of the other girls do not, she's very lovely, and as long as the man doesn't understand French, she sounds exotic! Of course, that may be one reason why she was wanting to go to Margaret's house.

Mary Louise (I think that's Frenchie's name:) is one calculating piece of work. She hasn't said much but you can see her playing her mental games of Chess even when she has a poker face on. I'm thinking she's going to be plotting some Machiavellian moves with her new freedom in Margaret's house. I think she is looking to climb to the top and I'm wondering how many people in Margaret's house she is going to step on to get there.

Anyway, Sir George the Moron...ugh. It seems like no one can tolerate him, not even his high society friends. Considering the animosity he has towards his wife and the fact that she seems fine with him having a contracted mistress (as long as he doesn't blow through her money), I can only imagine how Caroline was treated in the past. I'm worried how he's going to punish Charlotte through Lucy, if he contracts her.

[rozen]

So Fallon thinks he's Hades? I guess the murdering of young virgins makes slightly more sense now. Quigley is going to do spiteful pole vaults when she finds out Margaret handed her precious daughter over to a total sadist. 

I think Margaret doesn't realize just how much she cosseted Lucy, and left her completely unable to fend for herself. The ease with which Charlotte flopped herself between the Reptons shows she probably knew how to play them even at 12. So many years later, they both still adore her even though she's 'too old' for Lord Repton's tastes. Charlotte knows how to hustle and network with everyone she meets in case she needs them later. Even baby Harlot Harriet knew how to handle Repton like the old tomcat he is, instead of getting 'pounded like tripe'. Lucy is so damaged at this point, probably the only men she will attract are predators just like Repton and Fallon, who want frightened broken things.

French girl is going to over reach and get smited. Especially if she tries to cut in on Golden Child Lucy's business. She'll end up sitting next to Emily Lacey in the dominatrix's house. I feel like the dominatrix is totally going to regret this because Mama Quigley will surely come to burn the entire block down for Emily almost murdering her son.

If Charlotte is so renowned, she should just start her own darn board. Take Haxby on as her accountant. That would be hilariouuuuuuus.

[pamplemousse]

7 minutes ago, rozen said:

Lucy is so damaged at this point, probably the only men she will attract are predators just like Repton and Fallon, who want frightened broken things.

This is what worries me. I really like Lucy as a character because she's so different from all the other characters who are at least able to find a way to function with their lot in life, I want to see good things for her, but she's attracting sharks now like Lord Fallon who can smell the blood of damaged goods in the water. I was proud of her for pushing him away when he tried to kiss her until I saw how much he enjoyed that, his laughter and the look on his face was chilling. He looked straight up mentally unbalanced for most of that bedroom scene. I think Sir George is mentally ill too, although for all the evil things he's done he still doesn't strike me as being as flat-out scary as Lord Fallon.

I think I finally figured Haxby out -- he's not in love with Sir George (he looked positively disgusted at how Sir George behaved towards Lucy when she came to the townhouse looking for Charlotte), nor is he in love with Charlotte, seems like his true loyalty lies with Lady Caroline.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

It's an interesting episode when Mrs. Quigley is one of the least despicable characters of the week.

I'm glad that both Charlotte and Emily escaped their situations. While I agree that there were very strict class lines, I think that the bigger risk Charlotte took when she announced that George had raped her is the age-old belief that a mistress/harlot can't be raped (hell, there are places where it wasn't considered rape if the two people were married, which tells you all you need to know about fucked up assumptions about sex). I think that the other dinner guests took their cue from the hostess. If she had reacted negatively towards Charlotte after that, the others would have followed suit, but because she didn't dispute what Charlotte said and pointed out George's cruelty, none of the other dinner guests were going to argue with her about it. Honestly I think her husband's issue wasn't that George forced himself on Charlotte but that he brought an inappropriate guest and then caused a scene.

As I said, I'm glad Emily finally got away from Mrs. Quigley, but Emily is still not the brightest. Margaret was well within her rights to refuse to shelter Emily after her major disloyalty. It's not Margaret's fault that Emily made a bad choice. But then Emily had the nerve to turn down Nancy's very kind and generous offer out of nothing more than spite and anger.

[stanleyk]

1 hour ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

hell, there are places where it wasn't considered rape if the two people were married, which tells you all you need to know about fucked up assumptions about sex

Like the United States as recently as 25 or 30 years ago. Unfortunately, the idea that a married person can't be raped by their spouse is one that persisted for a long time, and continues to persist; even though the rape of a spouse is now illegal in the US, it is still treated differently in some states from non-spousal rape.

I agree it was perhaps unrealistic that the dinner guests would be on Charlotte's "side" in terms of George raping her (the article linked above describes an English case from the 1730s that illuminates the poitn), but I think they were reacting just as much to the fact that his behavior was now public, that he'd caused a scene in front of their wives. As one of his grody friends said, "bad form, George" which I took to mean not necessarily that you shouldn't rape someone - since I doubt any of them care whether Charlotte was raped, or think she could be - but that you don't create situations where baser behavior is put on display in society.

[OtterMommy]

10 hours ago, pamplemousse said:

Even though that scene with the upper class people turning on Sir George at dinner was so satisfying to watch, it was one of the few times this show rang false to me. I don't think the upper class at that time would even believe that it was possible for someone of their social standing like Sir George to rape someone of Charlotte's social standing, that wouldn't be rape to them at all nor would they side with her and look down on Sir George no matter how much they personally disliked him. Class lines were drawn very strictly and I don't think the upper class would ever side with a lower class person against one of their own, no matter how despicable and unlikeable he is. I don't think they would've even acknowledged Charlotte aside from being shocked and dismayed that Sir George brought her, I think they would've spent the rest of dinner ignoring her and pretending she wasn't there. 

I agree with this completely.  I mean, I LOVED (from a 21st century standpoint who has seen far too much crap go unchecked on TV lately) the fact that they called out George and named it as rape.  But, in the 18th century, no one would have considered that rape.  In their eyes, it would have been no more than the fact that Charlotte was a prostitute and George was simply making use of her services.  Even from Charlotte's point of view--yes, she could have felt dirty, used, exploited, and whatever else, but an 18th-century prostitute would not have put the label "rape" on it. (I'm NOT saying it wasn't rape, only that the 18th century view of rape and the role of women in different classes of society differs from our modern view).

So, the one side of me who is really sick of sexual assault being treated so flippantly in the media/entertainment world is sort of at war with the side of me with the degree in British History who called hooey on the whole thing.  Honestly, though, I think the former is winning out and I'm willing to overlook that anachronistic scene.

[Arynm]

I thought the men at dinner were more upset that George would be so stupid to bring his whore to dinner. The bad form bit seemed like he was scolding George for being so crass as to embarrass the wives and bring Charlotte where she was sure to act badly. What was he thinking? I didn't get the sense that anyone really cared that she was raped by him, only that she dared to bring it up at dinner. George will be back in the good graces of those people in no time, just let them win at cards or throw an expensive party and they will love him again. The aristocracy can get away with all kinds of shit, as long as they still have lots of money

[OtterMommy]

17 minutes ago, Arynm said:

I thought the men at dinner were more upset that George would be so stupid to bring his whore to dinner. The bad form bit seemed like he was scolding George for being so crass as to embarrass the wives and bring Charlotte where she was sure to act badly. What was he thinking? I didn't get the sense that anyone really cared that she was raped by him, only that she dared to bring it up at dinner. George will be back in the good graces of those people in no time, just let them win at cards or throw an expensive party and they will love him again. The aristocracy can get away with all kinds of shit, as long as they still have lots of money

I do think there was an element of this.  There are definitely historical accounts of (very prominent) men bringing their mistresses as their companions to social events, but I don't think it was a very widely accepted practice.  When I have heard of it, it has been royalty or near-royalty--whether that is because those were the cases that were remembered or because they were the only ones that could get away with it, I don't know.  It could have been that, by bringing Charlotte, George was trying to claim a higher social position than the others.  Or it could have been that Lady Caroline was accepted in that company and well-liked, whereas George was not (and probably didn't realize it).  It was already established Lady Caroline had the money and George was who he was because of her.  With that in mind, I can see the reaction of the others at the party to be due not to the fact that George brought his mistress to dinner, but that he would have betrayed Lady Caroline, who was much more a part of that group.

But I agree...it doesn't seem like the others were nearly as upset about the rape as they were by Charlotte's presence.

[Ripley68]

I think if it had been historically accurate, the women would have refused to sit at the table with Charlotte.

[OtterMommy]

3 minutes ago, Ripley68 said:

I think if it had been historically accurate, the women would have refused to sit at the table with Charlotte.

I don't think so.  If the *men* had refused to sit at the table, that would have been on thing, but the women would not have refused on their own in that situation.  If it were a gathering of just women, then yes...but, in 18th century England, women of that class would not have crossed their husbands so.  

[nodorothyparker]

43 minutes ago, Arynm said:

I thought the men at dinner were more upset that George would be so stupid to bring his whore to dinner. The bad form bit seemed like he was scolding George for being so crass as to embarrass the wives and bring Charlotte where she was sure to act badly. What was he thinking? I didn't get the sense that anyone really cared that she was raped by him, only that she dared to bring it up at dinner. George will be back in the good graces of those people in no time, just let them win at cards or throw an expensive party and they will love him again. The aristocracy can get away with all kinds of shit, as long as they still have lots of money

This is how I read it too.  Most of the other women in that scene were clearly wives or members of their social class and they would not have appreciated in the slightest sitting down to dine with some guy's personal whore.  George isn't their king or even highly enough placed in the court where they can shrug off having to make nice with his mistress in a social setting.   The lord Charlotte had been hitting on earlier in the day telling George they needed to eat quickly and go was a tipoff, as was the other guy telling him it was bad form.  They may have been uncomfortable with Charlotte talking at the dinner table about George punching her or raping her (which I seriously doubt any of them would have called it that either), but that was more about their own discomfort in having to hear about George's domestic situation and Charlotte making a scene than genuinely caring about anything he might have done to her.

Boy, Fallon is really intent on running this Hades seducing/entrapping Persephone metaphor into the ground, isn't he?  He even brought his own pomegranate and force fed Lucy the seeds.    Too bad Margaret is too blinded by the promise of another rich keeper to see what a bad idea this is for the daughter who's really not cut out for this line of work.  I generally like Margaret.  She doesn't mistreat anyone who works for her just because she can and she does try to be fair.  She just happens to be a ruthless pragmatist who knows how hard this life is and thus believes she is trying to do right by her daughters by setting them up in what she believes is a softer life.   They're daughters of a notorious baud with no respectable name or fortune and few prospects outside of this.  Best case scenario they end up working as domestics for a pittance in some other house somewhere where they still wouldn't be safe from any man wanting to take advantage.  She keeps using the word "protected" when talking about the courtesan-keeper relationship with both girls because that's how she perceives it, but she's not seeing how dangerous it potentially is to stick them into such extreme power imbalances isolated away from their cohorts.

Charles Quigley is such a naive manchild it's painful, talking to Emily about how they can run the house after his mother's dead and won't be grand and oh, my boo boo after Emily's pretty much gotten her face smashed in.  I understood Margaret's reasoning in not taking her back.  Emily's clearly showing us just how precarious these women's lives and situations were.  

I do believe Marney means well in proposing that he and Charlotte start over in America but she's right to ask what they would even do there.  At this time period there's no shortage of work to be done in the colonies but without any money or connections it's not a ticket to easy street either and now she's separated from any kind of support system by an ocean.

[snowwhyte]

I actually worry that the French girl could get herself into trouble by assuming her customers don't speak French and then insulting them. I would hope that she tests them first with some innocuous French to see if they understand. She is beautiful and accomplished but I think if she were to move up to high class mistress she needs to hide her disdain better. Other than her noticeable slips that is one thing Charlotte does well, pandering to the male ego and pretending that she enjoys being with these men. 

[Ripley68]

Its a very weird juxtaposition going from watching Harlots to The Handmaids Tale.  Women being used for the same thing is such very different ways.

[I-Kare]

On 4/26/2017 at 10:43 PM, kieyra said:

Ok, so the guy who wanted Charlotte to go to America has been a gigolo from the start? I'm so confused by this character. I either missed an early scene or they've underwritten the hell out of him.

 

I don't think he's been one from the start, I think they've shown a progression into the profession. When we first saw him, he and Charlotte talked about what he'd charge for services, then when they went walking she complimented him on how quickly he was learning to be a harlot, then he was stripping on a table for the women at the wake for money (tips?). "Servicing" Lady Repton at the sex party seemed just the next step. 

Edited April 29, 2017 by I-Kare

[OtterMommy]

Just now, I-Kare said:

I don't think he's been one from the start, I think they've shown a progression into the profession. When we first saw him, he and Charlotte talked about what he'd charge for services, then when they went walking she complimented him on how quickly he was learning to be a harlot, then hs aZ stripping on a table for the women at the wake for money (tips?). "Servicing" Lady Repton at the sex party seemed just the next step. 

He has been on since the first episode, but he hasn't been given a lot of airtime.  In fact, we saw him the most in the 1st episode and then in the 5th.  In the other episodes, he was only just barely there--which does make it a bit confusing for the viewer.

[I-Kare]

12 minutes ago, OtterMommy said:

He has been on since the first episode, but he hasn't been given a lot of airtime.  In fact, we saw him the most in the 1st episode and then in the 5th.  In the other episodes, he was only just barely there--which does make it a bit confusing for the viewer.

Hasn't confused me, but maybe that's because I was already familiar with the actor. 

[OtterMommy]

Just now, I-Kare said:

Hasn't confused me, but maybe that's because I was already familiar with the actor. 

Not so much with the actor, but with the character.  When he was introduced in the first episode, they seemed to be setting the character up for at least a supporting role...and then he was just on the fringes for a while.  Now, all of a sudden, he's trying to run off with Charlotte to the colonies.  I almost feel like he had some possibly important scenes that were cut in the intervening episodes.

[pamplemousse]

55 minutes ago, OtterMommy said:

I almost feel like he had some possibly important scenes that were cut in the intervening episodes.

That could be possible. This show has a pretty large cast and it's juggling a lot of storylines that diverge and intersect. The writers, imo, are doing a great job but there are certain characters like Daniel Marney who may have lost some scenes to editing. I'm ok with that because I'm not really that interested or invested in him (although he did get more interesting after becoming Lady Repton's "nephew") and I actually think Charlotte running off to the colonies with him (not that I think she will) would be a really bad idea.

[kieyra]

Random musing: I understand what they're doing with Lucy's character, but I think I'm not connecting with it as much as I should because it requires Mrs Wells to have been have been in the business all her life and have absolutely no nose for predators.

I understand why Lucy didn't bother complaining about her treatment by the Reptons. Well, many potential reasons, with shame at the top of the list. But they have given us a framework for believing that Margaret would not be okay with it (she immediately asked if Fallon had hurt Lucy). Which means Margaret knows some clients are darker than others, and also that it's not "anything goes" with her girls. Yet she keeps obliviously throwing Lucy to wolves. Someone else pointed out that her fear and obvious 'victimhood' are why she keeps drawing these types, which totally makes sense. Margaret not realizing any of it makes less sense.

I suppose Lucy finally admitting she's not cut out for the life is a bit of a breakthrough for her. That's another part of the shame aspect for her--she expected to be great at the "family business". Of course, she has nowhere else to go.

[nodorothyparker]

It does seem like if Margaret was sold into the business at 10 as she's said that by now she should have seen enough to be fairly savvy at judging men and able to sniff out the truly unsafe ones.  Her survival and the survival of those who work for her is dependent on it.  But she's also been shown to be fairly pigheaded when an idea takes hold of her, like moving operations to a posher address or setting her daughters up above being common whores.

That's how I'm making sense of the story.  She's obviously put considerable time, money, and effort into educating Charlotte and Lucy in the finer arts and graces to make them suitable courtesan companions rather than another Emily Lacy.  The prospect of having both girls well placed and "protected" as she keeps saying now that she's so close to achieving it seems to be blinding her to any of the alarms that might otherwise be going off.  She's positively star struck by Fallon.

[penelopetele]

On 27/04/2017 at 2:54 AM, wonderchica05 said:

I'm glad Emily escaped, even at the expense of Quigly Jr. I agree she could have a future as a dominatrix!

My girl Fanny is knocked up! I can't believe Frenchie is the only one to have noticed. I wonder what she's going to do with the baby. Fanny examining her nails while being serviced made me laugh out loud.

What's Fallon's deal with the pomegranates? I had something else in mind when he said he wanted to eat. Or, more nefariously, maybe he's a cannibal and that's where the virgin girl went?

Poor Charlotte. She was being rejected left and right. I was both creeped out and amused when she flopped into bed with the  Reptons. That was a great scene.

In episode 4, Lord Fallon compared Lucy to Persephone, a Greek goddess. In Greek mythology, Hades was in love with Persephone so he abducted her and made her live in the underworld with him. When her father ordered her release, Hades tricked Persephone into eating pomegranate seeds so she had to spend half the year with him in the underworld as she had tasted food from it. I think this is why he made her eat them as he does say 'Now you're mine' and also 'these seeds seal your fate'.

[rho]

5 hours ago, kieyra said:

Random musing: I understand what they're doing with Lucy's character, but I think I'm not connecting with it as much as I should because it requires Mrs Wells to have been have been in the business all her life and have absolutely no nose for predators.

I understand why Lucy didn't bother complaining about her treatment by the Reptons. Well, many potential reasons, with shame at the top of the list. But they have given us a framework for believing that Margaret would not be okay with it (she immediately asked if Fallon had hurt Lucy). Which means Margaret knows some clients are darker than others, and also that it's not "anything goes" with her girls. Yet she keeps obliviously throwing Lucy to wolves. Someone else pointed out that her fear and obvious 'victimhood' are why she keeps drawing these types, which totally makes sense. Margaret not realizing any of it makes less sense.

I suppose Lucy finally admitting she's not cut out for the life is a bit of a breakthrough for her. That's another part of the shame aspect for her--she expected to be great at the "family business". Of course, she has nowhere else to go.

This confuses me too. Especially this episode when Charlotte was cackling in bed with the Reptons like they were all good friends. I don't believe Margaret grasps how truly terrified Lucy is. I think she vastly misunderstands her daughters. Charlotte is more of a thrill seeker (I'd really love a hint of who she was as a 12yo just entering this world. Is it an act in the name of self-preservation or does she really enjoy it?) which throws off the barometer. And Lucy is the clear opposite. 

So is Margaret that shitty of a mother she doesn't realize her daughter is in danger, or at least feels she is? Or does she chalk it up to teenage angst? 

They have clued us into Margaret's faults as a mother though. Charlotte, despite her success at the world's oldest profession, has a lot of resentment toward her and still holds onto that. Maybe they're using Lucy to further illustrate Margaret's faults. But if that's the case, I really hope she's given an opportunity to come into her own as a character, not just a pawn to move the story along. 

[penelopetele]

To be honest I don't really know whether to believe Lord Fallon is one of the people who employ Justice Cunliffe. Yes he is creepy however there is nothing stopping Cunliffe writing any old name of a rich man down. Also they could just be making Fallon creepy to put people off the actual people doing it. 

[snowwhyte]

I think that is possible but the way that Fallon reacted when Lucy pushed him away certainly seemed to show that he prefers girls who are unwilling. He is one of the most powerful men in the show and it's very believable that he would be part of such an awful group. In terms of storytelling it is unlikely that the bad guy will be revealed so early but maybe the drama will be in revealing another member of the group or in watching Lucy trying to avoid a similar fate, knowing what we do.

[dmc]

I feel so bad for Charlotte I knew Howard would find out but I think it would only take one episode.  It was pretty dumb for her and the mean servant guy to get an argument about it he should've just let her take the clothes.  Also I don't think it's smart for her to go to America with the Irish guy either.  I can't tell if Lord Fallon is really nefarious or he's just weird.  Either way I don't think Lucy is right for this business

Edited April 30, 2017 by dmc

[nodorothyparker]

3 hours ago, penelopetele said:

To be honest I don't really know whether to believe Lord Fallon is one of the people who employ Justice Cunliffe. Yes he is creepy however there is nothing stopping Cunliffe writing any old name of a rich man down. Also they could just be making Fallon creepy to put people off the actual people doing it. 

This thought has occurred to me as well, especially since Mrs. Quigley got the admission that Cunliffe doesn't know who he is procuring for either.  Fallon is certainly coming off as a creeper with all of his Hades-Persephone leering but for all we know that's his idea of 18th-century dirty talk.  Fallon is very definitely a big deal in the circles of all these people though.

[pamplemousse]

On 4/30/2017 at 10:26 AM, nodorothyparker said:

This thought has occurred to me as well, especially since Mrs. Quigley got the admission that Cunliffe doesn't know who he is procuring for either.  Fallon is certainly coming off as a creeper with all of his Hades-Persephone leering but for all we know that's his idea of 18th-century dirty talk.  Fallon is very definitely a big deal in the circles of all these people though.

 

 

 

Yeah because not only does Fallon have his title, but he has a shitload of money. $20,000 pounds a year back then was a LOT of blunt. And Margaret mentioned he has several "fine" homes, so I'm guessing maybe more than just the regular real estate package of a townhouse in London + the country estate/seat. Also, for some reason I get the feeling that he's not married? I don't know why and it could be revealed later in the season that he is married (I pity that poor lady, if so). I wonder if all the awe surrounding his posh and creepy self seems to be that not only is he titled (and if they're calling him Lord Fallon, he's probably got to at least be a Viscount, I would think, whereas George is only Sir George since he's just a lowly baronet hah) but that he's wealthy in his own right and didn't have to marry for his money like George did. 

Edited May 2, 2017 by pamplemousse

[nodorothyparker]

Good point that Fallon's so ridiculously wealthy as to be in another stratosphere for these characters.  Because I use my knowledge of classic English lit as a measuring stick in these sorts of things, compare that to absolutely everybody squeeing all over themselves in Pride and Prejudice over Mr. Darcy's 10,000 a year 50 years after this story is set.  That's like Bill Gates money in this universe, which can buy a lot of people doing an awful lot of looking the other way on any weirdness.

[aradia22]

I loved Charlotte's first episode with the big tricorne hat and the pink and blue. Just this side of garish. Unclear why Haxby is feeling smug and she's feeling unsettled. 

"You overreach yourself." "You underestimate me."

I keep coming back to this but as disreputable as a courtesan is, walking around unaccompanied in a public park feels brazenly scandalous. Is this the same universe where the harlots were beaten and arrested?

Ew, butter.

This show's writers are crazy. Of all the threads to remember, they're thinking of the goat.

Laudanum! I know they were pretty liberal with it but to me it's a plot cue. Either someone's getting an addiction or taking an overdose and dying. 

I can see why Margaret wouldn't risk having Emily back. Lydia didn't accept the truce but it was tentative and taking Emily would have definitely started it up again. Also no doubt she'd have to spend more on Emily's debt. But I also think she sensed that Emily's penitence would be short-lived. She wasn't mean about turning her out. They gave her some money. 

Nancy is great. Emily should have just gone with her.

So the Reptons are totally debauched but in their own way they were nice to Charlotte. 

Oh, now there's a mystery aspect. Was that girl murdered? Did she escape? It would be interesting if one of the girls escaped and could be a witness though I still think they could hush it up given the class dynamics. 

In her way, Margaret is giving Charlotte the best help she can by turning her away and urging her to search higher. 

Interesting that Amelia preaches forgiveness. 

LOL, Mr. Marney is already spinning the fantasy of running away with Charlotte. Even in America they'd need money. Does he know any trades?

I'm getting kind of interested in these side characters (Amelia, Violet, Ratface) who are connected to Quigley and Margaret but have their own personal dramas outside of the main feud. I don't see a happily ever after coming but I can't help rooting for Amelia and Violet.

Good, Haxby should be fired. Idiot. What did he think was going to happen?

PLEASE tell me Charlotte's not getting pregnant.

Risky for the French one to be insulting the customers like that. Plenty of people in England would have known some French.

I really Fallon is creepy af but why does Lucy assume he's going to do something bad with the knife?

Charlotte looked fabulous in the aquamarine dress. I'm not really sure how she managed to keep herself safe by exposing Sir George like that. It's not like one of those fine ladies or gentlemen is going to take her in and let her stay with them.

Nancy is a good person. I still don't get what this character has to do with anything but I like her.

[aradia22]

Quote

Or she could go to a smaller town or city and settle down with some nice normal guy and have some kids. Maybe Margaret would hate that life, but Lucy might not. Otherwise, I don't see this ending well for the poor thing.

I feel like the problem they haven't verbalized is that Lucy isn't respectable. Even when she was a virgin, her mother and sister were prostitutes and lower class. Despite the fantasies romance novels conjure, she was never going to be able to marry anyone from the upper classes. And even people in middle class trades would probably look down on her. So her only potential husbands would be guys who didn't care about that and the fact that she's not a virgin and those kinds of similarly lower class men probably wouldn't be able to support a wife and family that well. 

Quote

My girl Fanny is knocked up! I can't believe Frenchie is the only one to have noticed.

Oh, was that the secret? I didn't follow that scene well. 

Quote

Good on Charlotte for taking revenge. What an idiot George is.  I really wish there was at least one decent rich guy - but they're all goobers.  

I'm sure there are. But I don't think the show wants to write anyone an out with a fairytale prince charming. Also, in this world, "decent" probably just means they're not cheating on their wives or religious zealots so it wouldn't matter anyway. The show seems to be saying that part of the transaction is paying for the privilege of treating these women poorly. A decent guy wouldn't want a mistress. 

Quote

I don't really get what Lord Fallon was trying to do in that scene, other than being creepy as hell. The actor is great imo, so good at portraying refined cruelty and hinting at the sadism underneath. He came across like a serial killer to me.

I feel like he thought she was a naive but pretty normal harlot at first. Acted differently, I can see that being a sexier scene. Like, if Fallon wasn't as creepy and Lucy wasn't as terrified. It's like George with his dumb pineapple or even Harriet playing Dido. There's a roleplay aspect. But then Fallon saw how terrified Lucy was and he was even more into that. 

Quote

She keeps using the word "protected" when talking about the courtesan-keeper relationship with both girls because that's how she perceives it, but she's not seeing how dangerous it potentially is to stick them into such extreme power imbalances isolated away from their cohorts.

I appreciate though that Margaret wouldn't force her daughters (or at least Lucy) into a bad situation. I remember her being concerned after the Reptons but Lucy didn't say anything. And in this episode, she asked if Fallon had hurt her and Lucy just told her about the seeds. From her POV, I get thinking that Lucy was just being fussy or nervous when Lucy wouldn't tell her explicitly about getting bad vibes. 

[Scarlett45]

On 4/26/2017 at 1:57 PM, OtterMommy said:

I'm still trying to figure out how I feel about Margaret trying to buy Harriet children--and I think Margaret is just as conflicted about it.  She clearly doesn't begrudge Harriet for wanting her children and I think she wants to help--but "paying off Harriet's debt" sounds a lot like "buying Harriet's children whose current master considers them slaves."

Harriet’s children are slaves and Margaret would be buying them from Benjamin. That’s the ONLY way to get Harriet her children or ever free them. 

Benjamin doesn’t want to sell them not because they are particularly valuable (granted they aren’t babies but they aren’t in their prime price wise) but because he wants to hurt Harriet as much as he can. Harriet is willing to sell herself back into a life time of slavery (figuratively and literally) to endure her children are free. 

Im so mad at Lennox (is that his name?) for not signing this damn papers while pretending to “care” about Harriet and the kids. One sheet of paper and some money in a separate account could’ve stopped all this. Had he freed Harriet before she gave birth to the first child they would automatically be free.