S05.E08: Immersion

[sistermagpie]

Just now, Bannon said:

Well, nothing is "automatic", but the DOJ woud have good reason to think they could solve a public relations problem by trotting out the family members of people suspected of having been murdered by P & E, and explaining how Paige's behavior aided and abetted those murders. A family of a guy who disappeared from an insect breeding operation would be a good start.

Oh, I think one look at Paige and her Bambi eyes filling with tears and her eyebrows pointing to heaven, maybe surrounded by the prayer group where she's been so fervently studying the Bible for years, would put her firmly in the "victim" category as well. I just don't think that even if the public was able to specifically connect these two to an actual murder they'd want to string up the daughter who didn't do it. 

I think Pastor Tim would actually be in bigger trouble.

[kokapetl]

Paige doesn't have any knowledge about the specific criminal acts that her parents commit. Jonathan Pollard's wife was directly involved in concealing the vast, vast amounts of classified info her husband stole, was not contrite, and she received a sentence of only 5 years and was on parole in less than 2 years. 

13 hours ago, chocolatine said:

Yes, see my updated post above. He's an American CIA agent taking Russian language classes from her, but the two of them put a new spin on "immersion". (I know, gross. I'll show myself out.)

"Immerse yourself into me, Big Sex Guy!"

[RedHawk]

50 minutes ago, chocolatine said:

One interesting throwaway line that I just remembered was Stan telling P&E that he doesn't want to go skydiving with Renee because he plans to stay alive at least until Matthew graduates college, and the almost imperceptible look between P&E, like "maybe you will if you stay out of our way".

My feeling was that Philip was thinking, "I just hope to get Henry through high school."

[Umbelina]

12 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

But you know that would probably mean more scenes of Paige and making her face, just this time in front of FBI agents or whoever instead of Pastor Tim and her parents. And slowly asking questions to them instead of her parents.

Btw, I think I remember the kid who was the pianist. I think he disowned his parents and lived with his piano teacher, didn't he?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/may/07/discovered-our-parents-were-russian-spies-tim-alex-foley

In the real story of the embedded spies, the FBI knew LONG before they moved in.  That could work here as well, and work very well.  The FBI knows, but Phil and Liz don't know they know.  The house is bugged, their activities monitored...imagine the sub layers to that story, because obviously, Stan would be read into the operation if the FBI trusted him, since he's not only a neighbor, but also quite close to them.  Maybe that's why Renee is checking him out?

It could be great actually, and with any luck, hopefully the dreadful bore Pastor Tim would be tossed in jail eventually as well, or used as an asset by the FBI to avoid jail for him and his wife.  I'd enjoy that.

Edited April 26, 2017 by Umbelina
clarity

[Bannon]

9 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Oh, I think one look at Paige and her Bambi eyes filling with tears and her eyebrows pointing to heaven, maybe surrounded by the prayer group where she's been so fervently studying the Bible for years, would put her firmly in the "victim" category as well. I just don't think that even if the public was able to specifically connect these two to an actual murder they'd want to string up the daughter who didn't do it. 

I think Pastor Tim would actually be in bigger trouble.

Yeah, we aren't going to agree, because I've seen too many real-life people, who were pretty outwardly sympathetic, get caught in the criminal justice meatgrinder. If you are really wealthy, of course, that changes things considerably, although less so when up against a Federal prosecution.

Pastor Tim? Oh, we agree completely on that. He'd be dead meat, although there would not be the same impetus to torture him with solitary, so as to apply leverage to P & E. 

Edited April 26, 2017 by Bannon
spelling

[sistermagpie]

Just now, Bannon said:

Yeah, we aren't going to agree, because I've seen too many real-life people, who were pretty outwardly sympathetic, get caught in the criminal justice meatgrinder. If you are really weathy, of course, that changes things considerably, although less so when up against a Federal prosecution.

Just to be clear, if the DoJ did do all this to Paige, I wouldn't be shocked or anything. I accept it as a possibility, definitely. It's just not something I particularly worry about happening to Paige on the show because they're more about her living with her terrible secret etc.

2 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

It could be great actually, and with any luck, hopefully the dreadful bore Pastor Tim would be tossed in jail eventually as well, or used as an asset by the FBI to avoid jail for him and his wife.  I'd enjoy that.

Can you imagine Pastor Tim facing this? I've always thought the guy's ego has made him make this short-sighted decision but I can't imagine him having to deal with not only the legal ramifications but probably his whole congregation seeing him as a bad guy. It'd be also great if he told his wife to pretend he never told her and her gladly throwing him under the bus and leaving with the kid.

[Bannon]

Just now, sistermagpie said:

Just to be clear, if the DoJ did do all this to Paige, I wouldn't be shocked or anything. I accept it as a possibility, definitely. It's just not something I particularly worry about happening to Paige on the show because they're more about her living with her terrible secret etc.

 

Oh, I misunderstood you. Yeah, the writers would never do this, because it would be dramatically unsatisfyng, and take too long to tell the story. If they want Paige to suffer a hideous fate, they'll likely have her commit suicide (but I hope they don't do that).

[Umbelina]

I'm loving all this speculation, and I just moved my newest comment to the Spec without Spoilers thread, I hope I get some company there, because this idea is making me a bit giddy, and possibly also explaining a bit of the Stan and maybe even Oleg storylines.

[Knuckles]

Please, does anyone have the reference for the beat down Elizabeth gave to Claudia...I must have missed that somehow. Do you know what season, episode it might be?

Many thanks.

[Umbelina]

11 minutes ago, Knuckles said:

Please, does anyone have the reference for the beat down Elizabeth gave to Claudia...I must have missed that somehow. Do you know what season, episode it might be?

Many thanks.

http://www.avclub.com/tvclub/the-americans-trust-me-92859

TRUST ME, Season 1 episode 6.  The KGB  kidnaps Phil and Liz and beats the shit out of Philip to see if they are trustworthy, on Claudia's orders, because Elizabeth had reported  Philip as "liking America too much" and other shit.  After they found out their own people did this to them, Liz beats up Claudia.

Edited April 26, 2017 by Umbelina

[FormerMod-a1]

Topic please.  Much of the last page or so of discussion would best be discussed in the Paige topic, the Speculation topic, Real Life Spies, or even the Small Talk topic.  This topic is for this episode only.  I know some of you have replied to posts there and I thank you for it.  Everyone needs to take it there now, too.

[J-Man]

I'm confused about the previews from last week -- they seemed to show a lot more "action" than we got-- even some with Claudia, IIRC. Or were they meant to be previews of the remainder of the season and not just the next episode?

I know they all go to different schools, but it would be fun if Tuan, Pasha, Paige, Matthew, and Kimmy (remember her? The show doesn't) all met up at some kind of extra-curricular activity like a football game or a dance.

[AllyB]

19 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Paige is kind of become the Megan of this season for me. As in Mad Men's Megan. I will always defend her part in the show, and especially now that it's over I see what MW was doing and why he had to make certain choices, but there were times when I really resented her when she showed up on screen. And I'm starting to really feel that way with Paige. I know she's important, I get what they're doing, but man, she and Elizabeth are like the twin planets of the family with Philip and Henry the occasionally appearing moons.

It's funny. For the last few weeks I've been mentally comparing this story are to Dawn appearing in Buffy. It wasn't a badly written arc, Dawn wasn't badly acted but I disliked her appearance because it utterly altered the focus of a show I loved. It didn't make it a bad show, I still enjoyed watching it but it wasn't the same show anymore and I loved the way it had been far more. In this case, Paige being let in on the secret has changed The Americans, it isn't the show it was and I loved the show it was. There is still much to appreciate now but it's not the show that hooked me and that's because so much of the story now centres around handling Paige with kid gloves. Along with the loss of Martha, Arkady and even Gaad, the whole show is a refocussed, diminished version of itself.

[virginia blue]

3 hours ago, Bannon said:

The DOJ, when prosecuting people for espionage, ruthlessly puts them in whatever vise it can construct, to apply pressure to the best of it's ability. If that mean getting their minor child certified as an adult, and also putting them on trial for espionage, with all that comes with such a prosecution, well, the second half of the term "cold war" is "war", after all. In any case, Paige is what, about 700 days away from becoming an adult?

This may be true, but there is no reason to think Paige knows any of that. There's no evidence that she's thought at all about the potential consequences she could face, as distinct from what could happen to her parents and their life as a family if the secret is revealed. If and when she does come to the realization that she may face legal repercussions, we may see more anger from her. Right now she is just struggling with the burden of keeping the secret and trying to come to grips with her new reality.

I do agree the way the show has handled this has been tiresome. I've thought about taking a drink every time someone on screen says "How's Paige?" Obviously, I'd be passed out midway through the show.

[Bannon]

7 minutes ago, virginia blue said:

This may be true, but there is no reason to think Paige knows any of that. There's no evidence that she's thought at all about the potential consequences she could face, as distinct from what could happen to her parents and their life as a family if the secret is revealed. If and when she does come to the realization that she may face legal repercussions, we may see more anger from her. Right now she is just struggling with the burden of keeping the secret and trying to come to grips with her new reality.

I do agree the way the show has handled this has been tiresome. I've thought about taking a drink every time someone on screen says "How's Paige?" Obviously, I'd be passed out midway through the show.

The writing has had it's problems this season. I actually like that the last couple episodes have been less 007ish; I'm really, really, tired of watching our favorite KGB couple running around killing people. Its just that so many of the characters beyond P & E are not fleshed out well, and Russell and Rhys have carry the whole load.

[topanga]

8 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Elizabeth hasn't ever completely lost her contempt for Americans, even if she makes allowances for people she sees as sharing some of her own better qualities (like Betty's backstory and Ben). "There's a weakness in the people here--I can feel it" was the first thing she claimed to sense about the country. 

I totally agree. It's the way some people (me) feel when they're around wealthy or even just financially stable people. "Their parents must have given them money. They've never had to help hard-up relatives.  They must be shallow, superficial people who have no idea how privileged they are. This house is nice, but they're probably in deep debt." And in some cases, those things might be true. But people (me) are wrong to assume those things about every person with money. And most of those assumptions stem from my own feelings of envy.

So Elizabeth sees the privilege and relative ease of the people she's around and assumes that all Americans are privileged and pampered.  Sure, people didn't have to stand in line for bread the way her parents and Philip's parents did, but many people (me) in the US grew up having to stand in line for free cheese and cans of a product called "Meat."  Sure, most Americans might not know how to survive a Russian winter without coal, but plenty of Americans do know what it's like to be cold or hungry--just not the ones she's encountered. Besides, having enough food to eat or having a warm home doesn't automatically translate into weakness of character. 

Two Elizabeth scenes from last night's episode stand out for me:

• When she told Paige about her rape, Paige automatically tried to hug her, but Elizabeth stepped back and put up her arms to stop her. That move was typical Elizabeth. Getting a sympathetic hug from her daughter meant weakness and vulnerability, two things Elizabeth cannot tolerate, not even in regards to being raped. Being tough seems to be her answer to every emotional problem. 
• I laughed during the kitchen scene when Stan, talking about skydiving, said, "I'm trying not to die before Matthew graduates from college." And Elizabeth gave this little smile and looked at Philip, who purposefully did not return her eye contact but took a sip of his coffee instead. It's as if they were both thinking, "Yes, let's hope we don't have to kill you before then."

[Penman61]

Maybe it's the logy storytelling thus far this season, but I'm so ready for an 80s TV dramedy about the continuing adventures of sex-focused Deidre, in which:

• she laughs at herpes, scoffs at AIDS
• her catchphrase is "...Rosebud ain't just a sled in Citizen Kane, ya know..."
• she is revealed as having named LOTUS 1-2-3 for a complicated 3-hour sex position SHE INVENTED (This would happen in the obligatory Halt and Catch Fire crossover episode.)

 

Edited April 27, 2017 by Penman61

[RedHawk]

52 minutes ago, virginia blue said:

I do agree the way the show has handled this has been tiresome. I've thought about taking a drink every time someone on screen says "How's Paige?" Obviously, I'd be passed out midway through the show.

Heh, too true. I think Stan's continuing concern for her might yield something though. He always gets this puzzled look when P&E don't seem that worried about her, shrug off his concerned questioning, etc. 

[Bannon]

1 hour ago, AllyB said:

It's funny. For the last few weeks I've been mentally comparing this story are to Dawn appearing in Buffy. It wasn't a badly written arc, Dawn wasn't badly acted but I disliked her appearance because it utterly altered the focus of a show I loved. It didn't make it a bad show, I still enjoyed watching it but it wasn't the same show anymore and I loved the way it had been far more. In this case, Paige being let in on the secret has changed The Americans, it isn't the show it was and I loved the show it was. There is still much to appreciate now but it's not the show that hooked me and that's because so much of the story now centres around handling Paige with kid gloves. Along with the loss of Martha, Arkady and even Gaad, the whole show is a refocussed, diminished version of itself.

Losing Gaad hurt the show. Richard Thomas is talented, and the shame of it was the character was just being given a full illustration when he was murdered. An unsuccessful kidnapping, accompanied by significant injury, with Gaad still with some role to play (even though forced into retirement by the Martha debacle) may have provided some good moments.

[Umbelina]

I'm feeling a bit like sad sack begging clinging Philip.   Come on you guys, come speculate with me in the speculation thread?  Will it help if I tell you I'm really married to another board and just cheating on them with you? 

Nah...didn't think so.

It's weird, I didn't think Philip sounded any less clingy or begging during that phone call to Deidre, but at least he let her know he's some other woman's problem and she could simply play and have sex without risking the dude wanting to move in with her forever or acting heartbroken when she finally detached from his neediness.  So?  Success!

[sistermagpie]

Quote

 know they all go to different schools, but it would be fun if Tuan, Pasha, Paige, Matthew, and Kimmy (remember her? The show doesn't) all met up at some kind of extra-curricular activity like a football game or a dance.

I always gotta stick up for the show on this one. They haven't forgotten Kimmie. We're just supposed to assume Philip's seeing her on schedule but we won't see it unless there's a reason to.

 

8 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I'm feeling a bit like sad sack begging clinging Philip.   Come on you guys, come speculate with me in the speculation thread?  Will it help if I tell you I'm really married to another board and just cheating on them with you? 

Nah...didn't think so.

It's weird, I didn't think Philip sounded any less clingy or begging during that phone call to Deidre, but at least he let her know he's some other woman's problem and she could simply play and have sex without risking the dude wanting to move in with her forever or acting heartbroken when she finally detached from his neediness.  So?  Success!

I thought definitely he didn't sound different.  Which was good because that probably would have been too suspicious. So instead he stayed the same guy and just added something...

[SlovakPrincess]

Have they seriously never had to deal with this before: that somebody they targeted just wasn't that into P or E?  Deirdre dumping P -- and the fact that P and E got all freaked out about it -- was hilarious to me.  

Apparently Elizabeth is just going to disregard Gabriel's warning to Philip about Paige not being suited for this work.   

The Oleg stuff is still depressing but at least it was more interesting this week!

[TaurusRose]

19 hours ago, SWLinPHX said:

Dierdre's character is a hoot.  I would think at her age and place in life with her "non-personality" and plain looks she would be thrilled to have anyone paying her that much attention, but instead she's ambivalent and picky, as if she were a supermodel.

Deidre knows herself and knows what she wants and there is nothing wrong with that. Good for her. You don't have to be beautiful to be discriminating.  

[sistermagpie]

51 minutes ago, SlovakPrincess said:

Have they seriously never had to deal with this before: that somebody they targeted just wasn't that into P or E?  Deirdre dumping P -- and the fact that P and E got all freaked out about it -- was hilarious to me.  

I suspect in this case Elizabeth basically thought that there was no excuse for not making it work with this woman because she was middle aged and boring and single so obviously should be grateful for the attention. Like it's one thing to accept that psychologically Don wouldn't cheat on his wife, but a woman like that can't have anything else going on.

51 minutes ago, SlovakPrincess said:

Apparently Elizabeth is just going to disregard Gabriel's warning to Philip about Paige not being suited for this work.   

I thought it might even have been more than that. That she took Gabriel saying that Paige shouldn't do this as if he'd said Elizabeth herself was a failure. She wants Paige in the game for a lot of personal reasons. Someone elsewhere pointed out that Philip had Elizabeth say how good Gabriel was before he told her what he said about Paige, like he was putting her in the right frame of mind for it. But I think Elizabeth didn't just disregard the idea, she pushed back against it. Even telling Paige about the rape might have been related (not a flat-out recruitment technique, but still helping in that direction). She was basically saying that while Paige might not feel like she's got what it takes--and Gabriel and Philip might agree--Elizabeth is proof that scared girls can become heartless KGB officers. And where Philip simply rejected Claudia, Elizabeth saw in her something she needed a bit. (And how ironic that in this scene we learn Granny is an actual Granny.)

Even back in the first season Elizabeth was worried about the "fragileness" she saw in Paige. She's trying to force it out of her like she's proud of forcing it out of herself. Although Elizabeth hasn't openly talked about this, I just realized that this season more than anything other she's made reference to "feelings" being a problem that must be strangled in the crib. She asked Gabriel if there was something wrong with her for not wanting to see Ben, insisted to Philip that she didn't like Ben, then said it was unacceptable to care, she rejected Paige's attempt to hug her as if that was exactly what she didn't want or need, she sort of mockingly warned Philip he might have to hurt someone's feelings as if this was nothing and she said that her impression of EST was that it said that everybody's feelings were the most important thing. He himself seemed to say that what he got out of EST was just claiming/reclaiming all parts of himself, which was exactly what Elizabeth is rejecting. To her that's all about feelings, which are unimportant. But as Gabriel confessed before leaving, knowing your own motivations can be important.

Edited April 27, 2017 by sistermagpie

[kokapetl]

I finally figured out who Deirdre reminds me of. It's Angela, from The Office.

[Dev F]

23 hours ago, Umbelina said:

You'll love the VOX review/discussion I'm reading right now @Dev F  It's pretty much combining our two posts so far, and adding a bit more interesting discussion about generations, parents, children.  I linked it in the Media thread.

Thanks, it really is a great article! Honestly, I should've been quicker to realize that the dangers of confronting the past would be a major theme of the season, considering it starts with our heroes digging up a grave to extract the deadly toxin buried there, and leaving a fresh body in its place. I guess I was stuck on last season's metaphorical track, imagining that it was about how people handle buried secrets more generally and not specifically about unearthing the past.

It's interesting that the one Vox reviewer compares the show this year to the final seasons of The Sopranos, because I was having similar thoughts. But I never thought the problem with that show was that it was holding back in anticipation of entering the home stretch -- what bothered me was that, again, the show started letting the plot details slide, forcing the character work to bear more and more of the weight of the storytelling. It had started as a series that brilliantly used the mafia as a lens with which to explore familial relationships, but it became became a show that just trained a naked eye on familial relationships, and also sometimes mob stuff would happen. As far as I'm concerned, it never really got back to the tight, well-integrated storytelling of its first few seasons. I'd hate to think The Americans is headed for the same fate.

15 hours ago, Kokapetl said:

the model sailing ship museum

Hee! I wondered if the museum was supposed to be the Smithsonian's National Portrait Gallery. It's a very different space, but something about the vibe felt similar.

[TaurusRose]

13 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

I think part of it is that Paige reacts to everything the same way. Watching her hear about her mother's rape I don't feel it landing for her in some specific way that changes the way she sees her mother. Which maybe isn't fair because she obviously has changed her perspective a lot over the years. But it's more like I wait to see where the writing goes later to see how it changed.  In the moment it's just "my eyebrows salute you in tragic V-formation."

This is the funniest thing I've read in ages.  I salute you.

[Sarah 103]

On April 25, 2017 at 11:56 PM, Umbelina said:

I don't want pretty Oleg, who is one character that did the right thing to suffer for that.

Speaking of Oleg, it could be his house was tossed because

• He looked at his mother's prison file
• The CIA ratted him out anyway because they are pissed at the FBI
• He's in big trouble with the Mob or KGB who are the real controllers of the stolen food
• Nothing at all, or he's just been in America too long, or his connection with traitor Nina is known

My guess is number three. I don't want to see Oleg suffer any more than he already is. 

22 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Loved seeing Henry be a normal kid with his friends. And nice that Stan isn't spilling about what Henry told him about his new crush.

I feel the fact that Stan will not tell Henry's secrets could be setting up something important. It was great to see Henry being a normal kid. 

13 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

The other amusing exchange was when Elizabeth said she'd have liked to have been a doctor if she hadn't been a spy, and Paige told her her bedside manner was nonexistent. Hee. I liked that Elizabeth was self-aware enough to know that was true.

Not all doctors interact with patients and need to have excellent bedside manner. 

11 hours ago, RedHawk said:

I need to watch the scene again where Stan and Aderholt were looking at the DC map. I couldn't follow what exactly their plan was or why they wanted to "get her off the street" because I was so excited about their discussion of the specific neighborhood. I actually live there! When they first mentioned Armand's on Wisconsin I knew exactly where they were talking about because when I moved here the pizza place was still there. 

They mentioned meeting her in a pocket park and were trying to choose one along Wisconsin Ave. There's a park across the street from my building -- I was holding my breath to see if they would mention it by name! If they had I swear I might have started watching it to see if Stan and Aderholt show up. My fan's heart is full! 

I know that Armand's too! At the 2008 election night party I co-hosted with my roommate, one of the guests really wanted deep dish Pizza, so we orderded Armand's. What is the name of the pocket park? I know the area pretty well, so I might know the place. 

11 hours ago, Umbelina said:

I agree, it's good to see how the rich live in the USSR, so I'm glad we are seeing Oleg's family, and the corrupt food guy's.  We need to see some of the poor people to balance that out.  Come on, show us some Martha, or at least how most citizens are living!

I thought we got a sense of that in the flashbacks we've seen of Elizabeth and Philip's life pre KGB. 

10 hours ago, Ellaria Sand said:

I love Oleg, too. I understand that they are building to "something" with him but I would like some hints about where it is going. Mama has the potential to be an interesting character. Her history and her honesty with Oleg have added depth and resonance to his story line. Otherwise, it would be him walking through the streets on cold, dreary nights looking incredibly handsome.

I'm not sure what they're building to, but as long as Oleg is alive and well I'm along for the ride. It is interesting we've seen him interact quite a bit with his mother, but we've barely seem him talk to his father. I don't see what's wrong with that last sentence. (bolding is mine)

6 hours ago, J-Man said:

I know they all go to different schools, but it would be fun if Tuan, Pasha, Paige, Matthew, and Kimmy (remember her? The show doesn't) all met up at some kind of extra-curricular activity like a football game or a dance.

A party would work best, because that would be the most likely thing to draw kids from different schools together. It's hosted by kids at Tuan and Pasha's school, which is how they would get invited. Paige gets invited because Matthew knows one of the students through something. Kimmy is there because her cousin goes to the school. 

I like the Elizabeth is training Paige, and that Paige is taking it seriously and doing well. When the men were searching Oleg's apartment, I kept saying to Oleg (as if he could hear me) "don't do something stupid." I couldn't believe he had the courage to tell them not to destroy his father's apartment, and only allowed them to search his room.  

[VCRTracking]

I wish the FBI would help pay for MY dentist.

Matthew Rhys can be so funny sometimes. His reaction to Deirdre breaking up with him because he wasn't "aggressive" enough!

Elizabeth telling Paige her secret.....man.  I know Holly Taylor gets a lot of flak but I thought her reaction was spot on.

Edited April 27, 2017 by VCRTracking

[Umbelina]

@Sarah 103

I have a new speculation going about the source of Oleg's KGB problems, involving the illegals in America, it's in the speculation thread.  However, I think you are correct, it's number 3, the people who are really profiting by the entire food fiasco.  Mob, KGB, Party Big Wigs...that guy they caught would rather go to jail than give them up, and he did warn Oleg.

Past is present in that scene as well, the more things change, the more they remain the same.  Oleg's terrified mother telling him that they can find something even if there is nothing. 

Part of me really wishes Phil and Liz knew exactly what they are really defending and fighting for.

[Knuckles]

14 hours ago, Umbelina said:

TRUST ME, Season 1 episode 6.

Umbellina, many thanks. I missed this whole episode in the beginning and it certainly is in play now, with Claudia back. Again, my thanks.

[stagmania]

12 hours ago, AllyB said:

It's funny. For the last few weeks I've been mentally comparing this story are to Dawn appearing in Buffy. It wasn't a badly written arc, Dawn wasn't badly acted but I disliked her appearance because it utterly altered the focus of a show I loved. It didn't make it a bad show, I still enjoyed watching it but it wasn't the same show anymore and I loved the way it had been far more. In this case, Paige being let in on the secret has changed The Americans, it isn't the show it was and I loved the show it was. There is still much to appreciate now but it's not the show that hooked me and that's because so much of the story now centres around handling Paige with kid gloves. Along with the loss of Martha, Arkady and even Gaad, the whole show is a refocussed, diminished version of itself.

This is a good analogy. When I was first watching Buffy back in the day, I really resented Dawn's sudden presence and hated how she changed the whole focus of the show and altered Buffy's character so much. Over time, though, season 5 has become a favorite, and I grew to really appreciate what they accomplished with that arc. Hopefully the story with Paige will come together in the same way.

11 hours ago, Bannon said:

Losing Gaad hurt the show. Richard Thomas is talented, and the shame of it was the character was just being given a full illustration when he was murdered. An unsuccessful kidnapping, accompanied by significant injury, with Gaad still with some role to play (even though forced into retirement by the Martha debacle) may have provided some good moments.

I agree with this, because my goodness, I am bored to tears every time we have to see Stan at work these days. The FBI corner of the show was never my favorite, but it used to be much better tied in and more compelling to watch. I could not care less about this thing Stan is doing with the new woman.

9 hours ago, SlovakPrincess said:

Apparently Elizabeth is just going to disregard Gabriel's warning to Philip about Paige not being suited for this work.   

Don't forget that Gabriel also spoke with Elizabeth about Paige, and told her nothing of the sort. I think she was taken aback to hear that he'd said such different things to each of them, and not sure what to think about it.

[shura]

9 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

10 hours ago, SlovakPrincess said:

Apparently Elizabeth is just going to disregard Gabriel's warning to Philip about Paige not being suited for this work.   

I thought it might even have been more than that. That she took Gabriel saying that Paige shouldn't do this as if he'd said Elizabeth herself was a failure. She wants Paige in the game for a lot of personal reasons. Someone elsewhere pointed out that Philip had Elizabeth say how good Gabriel was before he told her what he said about Paige, like he was putting her in the right frame of mind for it. But I think Elizabeth didn't just disregard the idea, she pushed back against it.

There's yet another possible layer to this. Mind you, it's just a thought that occurred to me as I was watching Philip tell Elizabeth what Gabriel said about Paige, there is no reason to think the show is going there. But - IF Gabriel wanted for some reason to drive a little wedge between P and E, telling them different things that reinforced their respective conflicting positions on the Paige question would be a good way to do it. Then Elizabeth might start wondering whether Philip was telling her the truth about Gabriel's words to him since what Philip was saying would be the opposite of what she has heard herself. She wouldn't really have a reason to think Philip is lying, but then again, she knows he doesn't want Paige in the business, can he really be trusted here? But like I said, Gabriel probably wouldn't do that to them, both for personal and professional reasons. On the other hand, and also for professional reasons, it might not be a bad thing to have them a bit more independent of each other and maybe go back to the time and state of mind when Elizabeth was informing the KGB on Philip.

[sistermagpie]

14 hours ago, RedHawk said:

Heh, too true. I think Stan's continuing concern for her might yield something though. He always gets this puzzled look when P&E don't seem that worried about her, shrug off his concerned questioning, etc. 

I didn't get that from this scene. Didn't Philip ask Stan if he knew why they broke up (fishing to see what he knew)? He admitted he didn't know what was going on with Matthew either and brushed it off as him always being moody. (LOL.) 

9 hours ago, Sarah 103 said:

I feel the fact that Stan will not tell Henry's secrets could be setting up something important. It was great to see Henry being a normal kid. 

If nothing else it's a reminder that Stan is like Philip, Elizabeth and Henry himself. It's in his nature to not blab. It doesn't matter if Henry's a kid, he still naturally isn't going to treat his confidences like they're nothing. Now, if Henry was confiding some secret about his parents I think we can already assume that Stan would just take that knowledge and hoard it/use it for himself. 

And it's good to remember that just as Stan wasn't eager to tell Henry's parents every little thing he's said about Chris just because they all know he likes her, likewise Stan has more than once pressed Henry for information about his parents and Henry or Paige and Henry didn't tell him either.

9 hours ago, Sarah 103 said:

Not all doctors interact with patients and need to have excellent bedside manner. 

20 hours ago, RedHawk said:

Re: my post above, that's another example of Elizabeth proudly separating "feelings" from things getting done. Of course she wouldn't be the kind of doctor who thought bedside manner was that important. The point is curing the disease.

1 hour ago, shura said:

Then Elizabeth might start wondering whether Philip was telling her the truth about Gabriel's words to him since what Philip was saying would be the opposite of what she has heard herself. She wouldn't really have a reason to think Philip is lying, but then again, she knows he doesn't want Paige in the business, can he really be trusted here? But like I said, Gabriel probably wouldn't do that to them, both for personal and professional reasons. On the other hand, and also for professional reasons, it might not be a bad thing to have them a bit more independent of each other and maybe go back to the time and state of mind when Elizabeth was informing the KGB on Philip.

I feel like she is somewhat already doing that--not that she ever really stopped, in some ways. When Gabriel showed up her instinct was to backpedal on her feelings for Philip and assure him that she was totally bringing Paige along etc. Now here, for all her steely glares, she was totally open to talking to Claudia about her and Philip disagreeing about this for Paige. (Claudia's stories about not knowing her grandchildren maybe serving as a hint to Elizabeth that she'd better keep Paige in the game or their relationship is over, because there are no real relationships with ordinary civilians.) 

What's also funny is that Gabriel really didn't say the opposite of this to Elizabeth. He didn't say anything about Paige being a great recruit. He just said Elizabeth had raised her into a good person who didn't feel entitled to the world giving her happiness. Elizabeth probably took that as making her a good soldier, but that's not what he said. It was only Philip who got Gabriel's opinion on that.

Another thing that makes me think of, just throwing it out there, is how despite Philip being the one that prioritizes family and wants to protect the kids he sometimes bears the brunt of the consequences of their job. He was the one kicked out of the house in s1 (even if that meant that Elizabeth had to be on the receiving end of the kids' unhappiness) and his frequent absences are the things that seem to be most focused on by both kids. Neither kid has run out to find an alternate mother-figure, but both of them have other adult men to represent a different path. (Both of which quickly got described as "closer" to the kid and so having replaced them as parents by a lot of viewers, as bizarre as I find that reading.)

Edited April 27, 2017 by sistermagpie

[dubbel zout]

14 hours ago, topanga said:

So Elizabeth sees the privilege and relative ease of the people she's around and assumes that all Americans are privileged and pampered.

Elizabeth has certainly seen poverty—or at least, need—in America. Her contempt is that she thinks Americans are too "soft": They expect someone else to help them.

[SlovakPrincess]

On the Deirdre topic -- self-esteem would generally be a foreign concept to Elizabeth.   In Elizabeth's world, you're either useful to the cause or a useful target because there's some need P or E can pretend to fulfill.  Deirdre isn't acting like a Martha - concerned about being older and single, and grateful for the attention.  

The fact that Deidre is content with her life and her work and just wants some occasional sex seems to confuse the hell out of Elizabeth --  although Philip seemed to get it by the end when he told Deirdre he's married and not looking for commitment.  

Just think how much better Martha's life would be if she hadn't let Clark into her world, and if she'd been more self-secure and less people-pleasing like Deirdre!

[shura]

48 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

What's also funny is that Gabriel really didn't say the opposite of this to Elizabeth. He didn't say anything about Paige being a great recruit. He just said Elizabeth had raised her into a good person who didn't feel entitled to the world giving her happiness. Elizabeth probably took that as making her a good soldier, but that's not what he said. It was only Philip who got Gabriel's opinion on that.

Not exactly. Elizabeth also asked Gabriel there if they are putting too much weight on Paige, to which he replied "No, she'll be fine, she'll find her way." That sounded like an endorsement of the whole recruiting Paige business to me since that's what Elizabeth was asking about there, and he must have known that.

[sistermagpie]

1 minute ago, shura said:

Not exactly. Elizabeth also asked Gabriel there if they are putting too much weight on Paige, to which he replied "No, she'll be fine, she'll find her way." That sounded like an endorsement of the whole recruiting Paige business to me since that's what Elizabeth was asking about there, and he must have known that.

Good point, forgot about that. He's still not specifically talking about making her a spy, but it does definitely sound like an endorsement of what they've done so far, and implying that she'd be fine with even more of it. And yes, I'm sure he knew that Elizabeth would take it as an endorsement of the whole plan. 

Basically, if Gabriel was Philip's father figure he totally let him down in multiple ways. Philip was right to ultimately see that he didn't have his back. 

[Anela]

Oh, Stan in the kitchen with them, talking about wanting to stay alive until his son was in college - that made me laugh, too. The look on Elizabeth's face! I lost my quote, but I think that was @topanga who brought that up. 

[SlovakPrincess]

Not only does Gabriel not really have Philip's back, he's never really had the power to protect Philip.  If anything, he's confirmed for Philip that everything they do might be pointless, they're really just stuck on this hamster wheel out of fear, and his "hero" talk in front of Paige was Gabriel just doing his job to keep the new recruit motivated. Gabriel killed in the past because he follows orders, Paige probably has no aptitude for spying but will be recruited because of orders, they killed insect lab guy for no reason, but oh well, etc.. 

I liked the juxtaposition of Henry happily hanging out with his friends on the couch ... with Paige later sprawled on the couch alone and aimlessly clicking the TV remote.  She is isolated and depressed.  

[qtpye]

On ‎4‎/‎26‎/‎2017 at 0:54 AM, taurusrose said:

I'm glad some people are enjoying this season. This episode had some solid moments, but I am way past tired of Paige.  I think my brain shuts down whenever she is on-screen. The actress is beyond dull and I'm sick of her repetitive dialogue. If something doesn't happen soon, I'm out.

 

On ‎4‎/‎26‎/‎2017 at 2:26 AM, Bannon said:

There wasn't anything wrong with this episode that having Paige be a well written character would not have cured. Unfortunately, that mistake was made a long time, ago, and it may be too late to fix.

 

On ‎4‎/‎26‎/‎2017 at 7:56 AM, BetyBee said:

I'm afraid I have to agree.  I found this episode to be boring.  I guess the writers are setting the table for next week (I hope), but it seems like we are just treading water.  I knew Elizabeth & Paige were going to share a secret, but I was disappointed that it was one we viewers already knew.  I was kind of hoping the secret would come from Paige, something that would enrage Elizabeth.  Perhaps learning that Matthew or Pastor Groovyhair forcing themselves on her, or even the story about the guy she and Henry took a ride with seasons ago.  I do not look forward to Pasha being bullied.  Speaking of Pasha, Mrs. Morozov is such a beautiful woman!  Almost too beautiful for the role...until she started getting sexy times with the CIA agent! 

I think the actress who plays Mrs. Morozov is a famous ballet dancer.  She is stunning.  I feel like one of these days they are going heart that the Centre thinks I is a good idea for them to break into an apartment wearing masks and brutally murder someone's baby in front of them, and later befriend the grieving parent (maybe pretending they too had lost a child to violent crime) and manipulate them for whatever the hell the Centre thinks is important.  Phillip will look shocked/constipated....Elizabeth will justify it, by saying that murdering this baby will save countless other babies in their country...and Phillip will reluctantly go along with it, rinse, lather , repeat.  Obviously, this is a ridiculous example, but the dynamic is getting a little tedious.  

 

 

On ‎4‎/‎26‎/‎2017 at 11:20 AM, sistermagpie said:

Or even better, I remembered the time when Philip was saying how Martha wanted to have kids and Elizabeth was like "Well, tell her no! Who wears the pants in that family!" and Philip was trying to explain that no, Martha was a human being who had her own strong personality and things that were important to her. She wasn't just a pathetic woman who waited for Philip to tell her what she wanted.

And that's in large part why Martha was devoted to Clark.

Elizabeth hasn't ever completely lost her contempt for Americans, even if she makes allowances for people she sees as sharing some of her own better qualities (like Betty's backstory and Ben). "There's a weakness in the people here--I can feel it" was the first thing she claimed to sense about the country. 

In order for Elizabeth to do her job, she has to objectify her marks.  They are not people worthy of respect, but obstacles for her to take down.  This is how she can remain relatively unaffected.  She was only shaken by what she did to that poor Korean family and it probably horrified her.

On ‎4‎/‎26‎/‎2017 at 0:25 PM, Razzberry said:

For the love of god can we please have Paige do something else besides knitting her eyebrows together while timidly asking questions?

Was a little disappointed that Diedre reinstated Phillip so quickly, even though as little more than a human vibrator.  Hopefully his main problem remains, in that she's not interested in pillow talk or impressing him.

 

23 hours ago, ChromaKelly said:

Yeah. I've been a Paige defender but please, let's have her do something else. Can she rebel? Do drugs? Confess to Stan that her parents are Russian spies? Tell Henry? I do have to LOL a bit at the whole Paige is such a problem because she goes to church thing. She has been taking all this my parents are spies thing rather well. It could have gone a lot worse than her telling Pastor Groovyhair. I'm over the moping. 

 

22 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

It's funny, but back in the early seasons she seemed much more of her own character and a real character to me than she has been since there's been this huge focus on How All This Effects Paige. Like back then when she was doing things like throwing herself into church she seemed like a kid doing things because they seemed to mean something to her and she wanted to make a point, part of which was putting herself in conflict with her parents in a normal kid way.

Now it's like she's constantly timidly and sloooowly asking questions and then taking in whatever they say, as of she's absorbing it in some way that's tragic. Her parents continue to have lives beyond her but she seems to basically exist so she can be waiting for them mopily at home, or doing something so that she can be waiting for them mopily at home to tell them about it. Not only is her own life reduced to what her parents are doing but she seems to understand the entire Cold War in terms of what her parents feel about what they're doing. 

 

22 hours ago, Bannon said:

I totally agree, and I find it completely unfathomable that the writers took this course of action with the character. How on earth did they come to think that this was an interesting way to tell a story? If there is anything I wish television writers would not forget, it is that every character should be richly drawn, a person who is not merely acted upon by others and events, but also one who acts on others and is the cause of events. Especially recurring characters with a lot of scenes.    

Good lord, the actress is sweet, but so unsuited to this type of complex characterization.  The fight training scene with Elizabeth made me laugh.  Her dorky movement combined with, probably a stunt double made the scene a little bizarre.  Paige the bad ass is just not believable.

13 hours ago, SlovakPrincess said:

Have they seriously never had to deal with this before: that somebody they targeted just wasn't that into P or E?  Deirdre dumping P -- and the fact that P and E got all freaked out about it -- was hilarious to me.  

Apparently Elizabeth is just going to disregard Gabriel's warning to Philip about Paige not being suited for this work.   

The Oleg stuff is still depressing but at least it was more interesting this week!

Elizabeth good solider at any cost mentality makes her an expert at the honey trap as long as her mark is a hetro male or maybe a homosexual female, or a bisexual person of any gender.  If the guy she needs to seduce is into tom boyish women, who like to fix up cars...that is what she will become.  She knows Phillip has the same type of skill and that is why she so perplexed at Deidre dumping Phillip.  She did not understand why Phillip gave up so easily.  Phillip actually seemed somewhat relieved, if perturbed by the dumping.  It gave him an out from a mission that he found thoroughly unpleasant.  However, as usual when Elizabeth prods, Phillip usually follows and was able to get back into the relationship.

[sistermagpie]

8 minutes ago, qtpye said:

She was only shaken by what she did to that poor Korean family and it probably horrified her.

And the Korean family were people she could open up to more because they were Korean, not American. F she sees something about herself she likes reflected in the person the shields can come down a little.

 

9 minutes ago, qtpye said:

Good lord, the actress is sweet, but so unsuited to this type of complex characterization.  The fight training scene with Elizabeth made me laugh.  Her dorky movement combined with, probably a stunt double made the scene a little bizarre.  Paige the bad ass is just not believable.

Yeah, I really hope they don't try to go too far with this. I keep having the suspicion that when it comes to Paige we're supposed to be seeing things that we're not necessarily seeing. Like on a podcast apparently somebody asked about Paige being broken and Noah Emmerich was like "No, no, she's stronger than people think!" Like that Paige is supposed to be coming across as strong here and I'm just not buying it. She was believably strong and stubborn when it was on the level of protesting nukes with her pastor and standing up to her mom like an American teen. 

This thread even made me think back on earlier conversations like the one where Paige tells Elizabeth about Pastor Tim's diary, or the one after they meet Gabriel, and thinking of obvious ways the actress could  have played those scenes differently that would not only give some variety but make Paige feel more like a person. 

[SunnyBeBe]

So, why do P & E insist on running water in the kitchen when talking about business there, but, don't do that in the bedroom?  Is there some reason the kitchen is susceptible to bugs, but the bedroom is not? 

[sistermagpie]

11 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

So, why do P & E insist on running water in the kitchen when talking about business there, but, don't do that in the bedroom?  Is there some reason the kitchen is susceptible to bugs, but the bedroom is not? 

Presumably it's that there's a closed door in the bedroom while the kitchen is open to the whole first floor.

[SunnyBeBe]

4 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Presumably it's that there's a closed door in the bedroom while the kitchen is open to the whole first floor.

Hmmm.....well.....I just think that if someone was able to penetrate their house and place a listening device in the kitchen, they certainly might have placed one in their bedroom too.  

Okay.  Please allow me to REALLY nit pick.  When E was talking with the lady about the Immersion dinner she said that EVERYONE had to only speak Russian. But, then, when E asked her if they all spoke Russian, she then says, no, they can only say "Thank you and Where is the rest room," or something like that.  So, why have that rule if that's all they can say?  Odd, imo. 

Edited April 27, 2017 by SunnyBeBe

[sistermagpie]

5 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Hmmm.....well.....I just think that if someone was able to penetrate their house and place a listening device in the kitchen, they certainly might have placed one in their bedroom too.  

 

I assume it's more for people overhearing than for bugs. Seems like the most obvious bugger would be the KGB (I have to assume they regularly sweep for bugs and that's why they don't assume they're bugged all the time by them) they wouldn't be bothered by shop talk. That said, there's plenty of times they don't turn on the water either.

7 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Okay.  Please allow me to REALLY nit pick.  When E was talking with the lady about the Immersion dinner she said that EVERYONE had to only speak Russian. But, then, when E asked her if they all spoke Russian, she then says, no, they can only say "Thank you and Where is the rest room," or something like that.  So, why have that rule if that's all they can say?  Odd, imo. 

It's definitely a thing that's done. It's to force them to communicate in Russian as best they can just to get used to trying to do it. Those two phrases are probably the only things they're comfortable saying at this point, but she's going to try to get them to use the stuff they've been studying while talking. She probably won't be able to stop them from lapsing into English at times, but it's still a challenge to get them to try to communicate. Even if they have to ask for specific words they're learning to communicate.

[Erin9]

14 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Even back in the first season Elizabeth was worried about the "fragileness" she saw in Paige. She's trying to force it out of her like she's proud of forcing it out of herself. Although Elizabeth hasn't openly talked about this, I just realized that this season more than anything other she's made reference to "feelings" being a problem that must be strangled in the crib. She asked Gabriel if there was something wrong with her for not wanting to see Ben, insisted to Philip that she didn't like Ben, then said it was unacceptable to care, she rejected Paige's attempt to hug her as if that was exactly what she didn't want or need, she sort of mockingly warned Philip he might have to hurt someone's feelings as if this was nothing and she said that her impression of EST was that it said that everybody's feelings were the most important thing. He himself seemed to say that what he got out of EST was just claiming/reclaiming all parts of himself, which was exactly what Elizabeth is rejecting. To her that's all about feelings, which are unimportant. But as Gabriel confessed before leaving, knowing your own motivations can be important.

I think the reason we're seeing Elizabeth keep saying that feelings are unimportant right now is because she's having greater difficulty containing her own. They are affecting her behavior more and more. So, she's spouting off about it more. It's a problem, and she knows it.

Last season Gabriel had to ask if she wanted a way out of the Young Hee op. It was a pretty big deal when she said yes. This season she asked to get out of an op- twice. Because she didn't FEEL like doing it. This week she doesn't even bother to ask- wise because that wouldn't have gone over well with Claudia. She decided she didn't FEEL like seeing Ben. So she didn't. Claudia clearly expected those relationships to be maintained with more than a phone call explaining that they're too busy. 

And since when does Elizabeth dwell on past ops like Young Hee? She is now. She pulled a Philip and visited her home. 

Elizabeth's problem is she is feeling things in spite of herself; so, she's loudly fighting it. 

[shura]

46 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Okay.  Please allow me to REALLY nit pick.  When E was talking with the lady about the Immersion dinner she said that EVERYONE had to only speak Russian. But, then, when E asked her if they all spoke Russian, she then says, no, they can only say "Thank you and Where is the rest room," or something like that.  So, why have that rule if that's all they can say?  Odd, imo.

Hey, maybe that's why they are having a dinner party and not a book club meeting. If you like the food, you say "thank you." If it doesn't agree with you, you ask where the bathroom is. It's not going to be the liveliest of dinner parties, but everybody knows enough to participate :).

[SunnyBeBe]

13 minutes ago, shura said:

Hey, maybe that's why they are having a dinner party and not a book club meeting. If you like the food, you say "thank you." If it doesn't agree with you, you ask where the bathroom is. It's not going to be the liveliest of dinner parties, but everybody knows enough to participate :).

That's pretty funny!

[sistermagpie]

5 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

I think the reason we're seeing Elizabeth keep saying that feelings are unimportant right now is because she's having greater difficulty containing her own. They are affecting her behavior more and more. So, she's spouting off about it more. It's a problem, and she knows it.

 

Yup, I totally agree. That's why she's suddenly having this explosion of loudly talking about how feelings don't matter. Because more and more she's aware that they totally do matter. With Elizabeth you can almost tell what's going on with her because she's so adamantly denying it. 

Another thing that makes the EST exchange so great. Because unlike the season before Philip isn't overly defensive. And she's not even really being totally sneering like she was last season. She's being kind of disdainful but she's actually asking about EST, like isn't this the point? And Philip answers honestly that no, that's really not what he's gotten from it. He says it's instead about knowing yourself, about thinking. Thinking about things you already are. It possibly allows her to consider some of the stuff he's doing in a better way.