S12.E19: The Future

[ILoveReading]

11 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I`m really disappointed with Glynn here. I had hoped she would at least balance out Berens but IMO it looks more like his ep than hers. Meh. Dean being tricked so easily, not coming up with anything, being the reason the Colt got stolen, not being able to handle himself in a fight and only doing the manual labor thing with the car once again did the character no favours.     

Since Cas lampshaded his own sad state of affairs, it stands to reason he is right this time. Though the way Cas described to be feeling is kinda exactly the way I feel now with the episodes so I could really relate. 

The Dagon actress really wasn`t good, Glad she is gone. 

Agree.  What was the point of making Dean all protective and possessive the colt if he was the only one that didn't get to use it.

Edited April 28, 2017 by ILoveReading

[Geordiegirl1967]

22 minutes ago, mertensia said:

One episode out of what? 236 or so that doesn't have them front and c enter isn't sidelined them for the series in my eyes.

Of COURSE they have been front and centre for most of seasons 1-11. My issue is with THIS season under Dabb's reign. In my view there have been far too many eps this year where either Sam or Dean or both boys have been pretty superfluous. And what is the overall arc/theme? These should be capable of being summarised very briefly and MUST involve S&D as the main players with a stake in the game and a key role to play. Most seasons tick this box;

s1 - find dad

s2 - kill YED / save Sam

s3 - save Dean from hell

s5 - stop the Apocalypse

s7 - defeat the Leviathan's

s10 - save Dean from the MoC

s11 - defeat the Darkness

s12 - ????? Seriously what is it? What is the over arching story for this season? Defeat the MoL? Something about Lucifer? 

[Boopsahoy]

9 hours ago, auntvi said:

So if the half human - half archangel child is more powerful than an archangel, will he be more powerful than Lucifer? Is a cage match between Lucifer Sr. & Lucifer Jr. coming?

That's an interesting idea! Maybe that will be the story line for next season.

Edited April 28, 2017 by Boopsahoy

[Boopsahoy]

6 hours ago, Commando Cody said:

RIP colt. at least the BMoLs can't have it. It did raise a question though. The gun worked as a regular gun, but they used the carved bullets. Why wouldn't the special bullets work in any gun? What was it about the colt that the bullets only worked in that gun?

This actually makes sense. Maybe the bullets are what is special? The witch bullets work in any gun as did the bullets they used on Abbadon. You would think they would have thought of trying them in a regular gun.

Edited April 28, 2017 by Boopsahoy

[Boopsahoy]

Almost forgot my favorite quote of the night, Dean to Cas," So now that you're back, lets go Team Free Will!"

[DittyDotDot]

 Well, that was a totally predictable hour of television. 

13 hours ago, SueB said:

I BELIEVE in the little tree topper. #TeamCas. 

I'm not going to presume this is bad.  

Whole lotta stupid--or lazy writing traps--going on in this episode, but Cass, at the end, I don't think was one of them. Or maybe I'm being just as stupid as Sam and Dean were when they stood in the parking lot arguing while the rest of us knew Kelly was going to steal Baby? ;)

12 hours ago, rue721 said:

I think the baby is mostly on Kelly's side right now. That's its mom, and Dagon was fucking with her. I'm not surprised that it would want to protect Kelly from Dagon as much as it would want to protect Kelly from herself/bleeding out!

TBH I doubt that Kelly is going to die in childbirth, because it seems like the baby would want and would have the power to stop that from happening.

I agree. 

12 hours ago, Katy M said:

Angel of Harlem?  Teen Angel?  Angel Eyes?  This is fun.

Hee!

• Angels Flying Too Close To The Ground
• Angel At My Table
• Earth Angel
• Angel of the Morning

However, I realize the tape was Zepplin songs, so...

13 hours ago, Periadoc said:

This plotline is so terrible. Of course its gonna be evil! Its LUCIFER'S child! How could it not be evil?? And it is obviously controlling both Kelly and Cas cause its in its best interest to survive. 

Well, I'm not sure it has to be evil simply because it's the Devil's spawn. That seems a bit simplistic and disallows for the existence of free will. Since the show has generally been a big supporter of the concept of free will, I'm not so sure it can be concluded that the baby will be evil.

Also, I wonder if the obviousness is a misdirect? It really feels like it's too obvious, which makes me suspicious.

12 hours ago, Lemuria said:

I have no idea why the show takes the position that a half-demon (Jesse) or a half-archangel (Sproutifer) would be more powerful than a full demon or a full archangel.  Then again, this is SPN, so I guess...reasons?

The hybrids make sense to me in this universe simply because they've established the human soul as being very powerful, it's just that humans can't seem to tap into it. So, a human/angel hybrid would have a soul and grace--that's a lot of power--and the ability to tap both those wells.

7 hours ago, Commando Cody said:

RIP colt. at least the BMoLs can't have it. It did raise a question though. The gun worked as a regular gun, but they used the carved bullets. Why wouldn't the special bullets work in any gun? What was it about the colt that the bullets only worked in that gun?

As @SueB noted, there was some original lore about Halley's Comet, but Sam also mentioned something about duplicating the incantation on the barrel of the gun on the bullets. So, it's unlikely the bullets would work in a different gun.

Although, I'd like to see them make a new Colt, myself--too bad they missed their opportunity last year when Halley's Comet came back around, though--I just miss them making stuff. Remember when they used to make flame throwers and EMF detectors?  

3 hours ago, mertensia said:

I do wonder what, exactly, the future shows. Baby Nephilim ruling the world and the angels and the demons as a dictator after having killed Lucifer?  Bringing about world peace?  Maybe the future as Cas wants it to be?

I'm wondering that too. 

2 hours ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

Does anyone remember the Big Bang Theory ep where Amy ruins the Indian Jones film Raiders of the Lost Arc for the boys by pointing out that at no point during the entire film did Indy's presence make the slightest difference to how things turned out? Kind of ruined it for me too - and Dabb should apply that test to every ep. If Sam and Dean aren't acting on the events or being affected by them the story needs chucking out and starting again.

So lets test it on this ep without S&D. 

1. Cas goes to bunker and gets the Colt (irrelevant whether S&D are there or not to how story progresses)
2. meets his angel contact and attacks the house where Dagon and Kelly are. Fight goes down as it did. Cas escapes with Kelly
3. Cas takes Kelly to sandbox. Sam & Dean don't turn up. Dagon is there. Colt gets destroyed as does the archangel. Attack on Cas ends as it did in the ep with Lucifer jnr killing Dagon via Cas. Cas and Kelly dance off into the night.

Overall makes zero difference that Dean & Sam were in the ep. If Dabb had applied the Raiders test this ep would have failed spectacularly and would have had to have been rewritten.

Or maybe it made all the difference:

1. Cass goes to the bunker to get the Colt, but it's not there because Dean took it with him. The entire episode can not progress at all without the Colt.
2. Without his talk with Dean previously, he doesn't have the same raison d'être for finding Kelly. And, without the Colt, he probably ends up dead.
3. Without Sam and Dean at the sandbox, Cass would've been killed before he got the chance to touch Kelly and get the power up. Kelly would be back in the care of Dagon and the Devil which would not be the same thing.

2 hours ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

Except that there are the heroes, the stars, the protagonists. SPN doesn't work if they don't have a role. So the occasional ep that is more focused on Jody or Claire or Cas or Crowley or whoever is fine, but they HAVE to be the main players in the overall story or SPN is dead.

Supernatural will never die! ;)

Edited April 28, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[Katy M]

24 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Or maybe I'm being just as stupid as Sam and Dean were when they stood in the parking lot arguing while the rest of us knew Kelly was going to steal Baby? ;)

That only was able to happen because Sam and Dean locked all the doors for the first time ever.  It's always unlocked.  Partly because that cars made back then, you couldn't just push the lock down and slam the door. You either have to push the button or whatever on the door handle at the same time or lock it with the key after shutting.  And, if you run into something and have to run away fast (which doesn't happen to me all that often, but it does to the Winchesters) it's a real time save to not have to unlock the doors.  So, the fact that the doors were locked is really making me mad beyond all proportion, I think.

[Myrelle]

30 minutes ago, Boopsahoy said:

Almost forgot my favorite quote of the night, Dean to Cas," So now that you're back, lets go Team Free Will!"

Maybe it was just me, but Dean didn't look like he really believed that Cas believed in Team Free Will anymore when he said that. Sad. 

And then Cas stole the colt and disappeared on them. Again.

It's really hard seeing Dean's words so completely ignored by everyone that he cares about this season. I wish there was going to be some sort of a pay-off by the end of this season for both him AND his fandom that included some dialogue to that effect especially because it's practically a given that Cas going off on his own to handle things, for whatever his reasons, is not going to end well or any better than it does every time that he takes off on his own and/or tries to take matters into his own hands.

And it's not like they want to kill the baby. If he has any free will left after being "touched" by the  Lucifer spawn he will eventually wind up back with Dean and Sam because it is my opinion that the writers intent is that the brothers, not an unborn supernatural being, are back to being the moral centers of the show this season, and even if the execution of that particular "show" has been less than perfect-far less, tbh, but we need to consider the writers and their ever less than stellar history with that particular aspect of the writing.

[ahrtee]

1 hour ago, DittyDotDot said:

Without Sam and Dean at the sandbox, Cass would've been killed before he got the chance to touch Kelly and get the power up. Kelly would be back in the care of Dagon and the Devil which would not be the same thing.

Except Dagon killed Joshua pretty much as soon as she showed up, just by snapping her fingers and without even touching him.  But with Cas, she had to stop and monologue first, and then went hand-to-hand with him.  The only reason for that was to delay so the boys could at least be in the scene.  

[SueB]

4 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Except Dagon killed Joshua pretty much as soon as she showed up, just by snapping her fingers and without even touching him.  But with Cas, she had to stop and monologue first, and then went hand-to-hand with him.  The only reason for that was to delay so the boys could at least be in the scene.  

But she finished her monologue, had Cas in a choke hold and Sam shot her with a regular gun, which distracted her.  Cas was no where near Kelly and couldn't have powered up.

Plus, Dean keeps the Colt with him so the episode ends right there if they are out on a case or elsewhere.

2 hours ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

Of COURSE they have been front and centre for most of seasons 1-11. My issue is with THIS season under Dabb's reign. In my view there have been far too many eps this year where either Sam or Dean or both boys have been pretty superfluous. And what is the overall arc/theme? These should be capable of being summarised very briefly and MUST involve S&D as the main players with a stake in the game and a key role to play. Most seasons tick this box;

s1 - find dad

s2 - kill YED / save Sam

s3 - save Dean from hell

s5 - stop the Apocalypse

s7 - defeat the Leviathan's

s10 - save Dean from the MoC

s11 - defeat the Darkness

s12 - ????? Seriously what is it? What is the over arching story for this season? Defeat the MoL? Something about Lucifer? 

see the spoiler thread for my summary of the point of the season.  I'll post the non-spoiler version in All-Seasons just in case.  Summarizing the season here is off topic. 

[ahrtee]

1 minute ago, SueB said:

But she finished her monologue, had Cas in a choke hold and Sam shot her with a regular gun, which distracted her.  Cas was no where near Kelly and couldn't have powered up.

Plus, Dean keeps the Colt with him so the episode ends right there if they are out on a case or elsewhere.

That's what I was saying.  If they were being logical, by the time the boys got there Cas would have been a puff of smoke and Dagon would have taken off with Kelly.  She had no reason *not* to kill Cas immediately except plothole.  

[gonzosgirrl]

4 hours ago, mertensia said:

I liked the episode and don't feel that Sam and Dean have to be front and center in every single scene. Or even storyline. 

I do wonder what, exactly, the future shows. Baby Nephilim ruling the world and the angels and the demons as a dictator after having killed Lucifer?  Bringing about world peace?  Maybe the future as Cas wants it to be?

Not every scene, of course, but for me, definitely in every storyline. I just don't care about Lucifer's family issues or why the BMoL are the douchebags they are, if Dean and Sam aren't in the thick of it. Dabb wants his spinoff so bad, I wish he'd just go ahead and do it and leave SPN to someone who cares about the show/Winchesters. That and some writers who respect the character of Dean beyond cheerleader/apologist/weapon maintenance man. I'm so tired of St. Sam The Wise that I can't even. All the research? Check. Figures out the plan? Check. Peacekeeper? Check. Chastise Dean for his feelings while being oh-so-understanding himself? Check. After doing that, be revealed as the genius who put a tracker on Cas? Check. Dean?  Umm, fix the truck? Lose the Colt? Get put down by yet another baddie? Check, check and check. Blech.

[catrox14]

2 hours ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

There is a BIG difference here. Yes Sam and Dean have had their issues, but usually their judgements - that the other didn't share - were made for sound reasons given what they knew. So for example, although killing Lilith turned out to be a terrible decision, Sam made it believing, for good reasons, that Lilith had to be killed - something Dean later acknowledged. Ditto Dean's decision to let Gadreel take over Sam. Given what he knew at the time that was a sound, well intentioned decision. It went bad and Sam was angry but based on what Dean knew at the time it wasn't stupid. I won't list loads of other examples here as we will get off the topic of this ep. My point is that the problem with Cas's numerous lies and betrayals has been that they have been either beyond stupid (letting Lucifer out) or inexcusable (destroying Sam's wall) or both. His judgement is really poor - which we saw again in this ep and which he himself acknowledged. He has made a LOT of bad calls. Yet he goes right ahead and makes another one - again based on faith in a higher power / bigger plan that experience should have taught him almost always ends badly.

Plus Sam and Dean are actual family so there is more leeway / trust and an unbreakable bond there. Of course they care about Cas. He is a good friend, and they have forgiven him a LOT, but its not the same.

So I guess the whole "family don't end with blood" theme of the past 8  years doesn't get to be applied to Castiel, the guy who risked EVERYTHING to help the boys and literally betrayed Heaven twice for the Winchesters?

Cas has  made terrible mistakes and used poor judgment just like Sam and Dean have (I 'll take that discussion to the bitch jerk thread).

 

Whether or not a viewer likes  Cas or his relationship with the boys ,  the facts of the matter as in on screen facts  are that Castiel has been portrayed as family for a long time now and he's officially  declared family by the boys themselves. They are going to be angry, grumpy, worried for and about him, argue with and about him, give him shit for doing stupid things and help him when he messes up,   love and care for him, and extend benefit of doubt towards him , and yes even forgive his betrayals as  they have done with whomever they have declared as  family, blood or not.

[SueB]

Just now, ahrtee said:

That's what I was saying.  If they were being logical, by the time the boys got there Cas would have been a puff of smoke and Dagon would have taken off with Kelly.  She had no reason *not* to kill Cas immediately except plothole.  

And when, in what drama EVER, do we see villains just kill off a regular character without monologue?

If you work hard enough, you can probably make Star Wars without Luke Skywalker. 

[Katy M]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

So I guess the whole "family don't end with blood" theme of the past 8  years doesn't get to be applied to Castiel, the guy who risked EVERYTHING to help the boys and literally betrayed Heaven twice for the Winchesters?

I think it does/is applying.  Sam and Dean have gotten mad at each other and cut each other off for temp times, too. Plus, Sam and DEan didn't throw Cas out. He knocked them out and left.  They wanted him to stay.

[catrox14]

44 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I think it does/is applying.  Sam and Dean have gotten mad at each other and cut each other off for temp times, too. Plus, Sam and DEan didn't throw Cas out. He knocked them out and left.  They wanted him to stay.

I'm sorry I'm confused. That is what I was saying...that Dean and Sam do see Cas as family. I was refuting the idea that they do NOT and should not see him as family. I was replying to the comment that Cas is nothing more than a good friend and the boys should not trust him. I was making the case that Cas IS family now and why even after he knocked them out he's still family and they'll try to help him.

Edited April 28, 2017 by catrox14

[DittyDotDot]

12 minutes ago, SueB said:

If you work hard enough, you can probably make Star Wars without Luke Skywalker. 

Yes, that was the point I was trying to make. If you work hard enough, you can make any argument fit the facts.

[ahrtee]

2 minutes ago, SueB said:

And when, in what drama EVER, do we see villains just kill off a regular character without monologue?

 

Oh, I'm not saying it's unusual (or even unexpected), just pointing out that it was so damn transparent that they were delaying so that Sam and Dean could show up that it was annoying (to me, at least).  It was *bad writing.*  There were other ways they could have done the scene that might have increased the drama and wouldn't have played into the trope quite so much.   (Having the boys show up *before* Dagon, for instance, and having them try to convince Cas to bring Kelly to the bunker...and *then* Dagon shows up.  Sam and Dean trying to shoot her immediately, being knocked aside/the Colt melted.  Cas rushing to protect Kelly and *then* touching her/getting powered up.  All we would have missed is the filler of Dagon gloating.)  JMO.  

[DittyDotDot]

Oh, I forgot to mention: Congrats to Misha on his 100th credit on the show! 

#IBelieveInTheLittleTreeTopper!

[Dobian]

52 minutes ago, SueB said:

And when, in what drama EVER, do we see villains just kill off a regular character without monologue?

If you work hard enough, you can probably make Star Wars without Luke Skywalker. 

Also, when the boys showed up, Dean should have shot Dagon with the Colt while she was focused on Sam, instead of waiting until Dagon, was looking right at him.  For that matter, Cas should have shot Dagon at the house when her back was to him and she was attacking the other angels, but instead he's told to go after Kelly instead, when Cas could have shot her before the sentence was finished.  Which makes no sense because Dagon is the threat, once she's dead they just grab Kelly and leave.  But it's pretty common to stage fight scenes like that to conclude implausibly, otherwise countless shows and movies would have concluded with hours to spare.

The angels in Heaven must be groaning over Cas yet again being at the center of a potential Armageddon scenario.  I can imagine a lot of "you've got to be kidding me," conversations.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Also, when the boys showed up, Dean should have shot Dagon with the Colt while she was focused on Sam, instead of waiting until Dagon, was looking right at him. 

He seemed to take twenty minutes to just get out of the car. Seriously, the car pulls up, Sam jumps out and fires twenty shots at Dagon and Dean is...? The way the scene was shot, it looked like he arrived in a different car later or something. The way the scenes are staged is ridiculous at this point. 

[Myrelle]

16 minutes ago, Dobian said:

For that matter, Cas should have shot Dagon at the house when her back was to him and she was attacking the other angels, but instead he's told to go after Kelly instead, when Cas could have shot her before the sentence was finished. 

He only had two bullets-one for Dagon and one for Kelly. His mission at that time was to kill both, but he missed Dagon with the first bullet. That's why the other angels told him to go kill Kelly as she was the more important target, at that point.

[Dobian]

14 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

He only had two bullets-one for Dagon and one for Kelly. His mission at that time was to kill both, but he missed Dagon with the first bullet. That's why the other angels told him to go kill Kelly as she was the more important target, at that point.

He should have used the second bullet on Dagon, she was the threat - a huge threat.  She's an archdemon.  Kelly was no threat to them, all they had to do was collect her.  They didn't need the bullet to deal with Kelly.  She even volunteered to go to Heaven later in the episode.

Edited April 28, 2017 by Dobian

[SueB]

Star Trek Transporters... they fail when the plot needs them to.

[sarthaz]

I know the boys are kinda done Saving People and Hunting Things, but could we at least have them Doing Things?  Like anything?  I guess Dean fixed the truck, so there's that.  And he walked some.  Sam also walked a few times.  And he transitioned from a seated position to a standing position, so that was cool, I guess.  Still, I could handle more things.  Like maybe one of them could eat.  And the other could open a door?  I dunno, maybe I'm crazy, but I bet they could do more things.  They seem capable.

[Geordiegirl1967]

2 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

 

2 hours ago, SueB said:

If you work hard enough, you can probably make Star Wars without Luke Skywalker. 

Yes, that was the point I was trying to make. If you work hard enough, you can make any argument fit the facts.

 

You may disagree with my assessment of this ep (i.e. that Sam and Dean were at best bit players, at worst utterly superfluous) and that is fair enough. But to say that it is as ludicrous as arguing the same about Star Wars and Luke Skywalker is just silly. Star Wars illustrates my point very nicely. It is impossible to argue Luke wasn't one of the main protagonists. He was one of only 2 remaining Jedi. He was the son of the bad guy. He rescued the princess. He saved the day. Without him the message would never have got to Obi Wan, Han would not have got involved, the Death Star.....sigh......I might as well be saying 'water is wet'. S&D were nowhere close to this essential in The Future.

By their nature protagonists are utterly integral. It is THEIR story. They have agency. They are important to other protagonists. They make things happen. Things happen to them that drive the story forward. My point about this ep and much of this season is that that has not been the case for Sam and Dean as often or as clearly as it should have been. 

17 minutes ago, sarthaz said:

I know the boys are kinda done Saving People and Hunting Things, but could we at least have them Doing Things?  Like anything?  I guess Dean fixed the truck, so there's that.  And he walked some.  Sam also walked a few times.  And he transitioned from a seated position to a standing position, so that was cool, I guess.  Still, I could handle more things.  Like maybe one of them could eat.  And the other could open a door?  I dunno, maybe I'm crazy, but I bet they could do more things.  They seem capable.

LOL. This is exactly the point I've been making about this ep. They were guest stars in their own show.

[SueB]

6 minutes ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

You may disagree with my assessment of this ep (i.e. that Sam and Dean were at best bit players, at worst utterly superfluous) and that is fair enough. But to say that it is as ludicrous as arguing the same about Star Wars and Luke Skywalker is just silly. Star Wars illustrates my point very nicely. It is impossible to argue Luke wasn't one of the main protagonists. He was one of only 2 remaining Jedi. He was the son of the bad guy. He rescued the princess. He saved the day. Without him the message would never have got to Obi Wan, Han would not have got involved, the Death Star.....sigh......I might as well be saying 'water is wet'. S&D were nowhere close to this essential in The Future.

By their nature protagonists are utterly integral. It is THEIR story. They have agency. They are important to other protagonists. They make things happen. Things happen to them that drive the story forward. My point about this ep and much of this season is that that has not been the case for Sam and Dean as often or as clearly as it should have been. 

Their relationship with Cas WAS integral to this episode.

If you don't care about that, that's your prerogative. But that was a central piece of the episode. Showing us how MUCH Cas is family to the boys. How much slack they are willing to cut him and yet how worried they are for him.

For the boys, it was a character-relevant episode. Yes, they barely had fights or action sequences.  But that's not my measure of success.

It's not just a show about Sam and Dean anymore. If that's what you want, that's not what is keeping it on the air for 13 years.  The boys won't go back to brothers-only, they've made that really clear.  

But everything Cas did was motivated BY the Winchesters. He made his decision to kill Kelly himself so Sam and Dean didn't have to.  

I find the argument that they were not relevant to be only superficially plausible because while you argue you could come up with a different way to achieve the same outcome without Sam and Dean in the episode, that presumes that the only outcome that matters is that Cas is now protecting Kelly's baby and Dagon is dead.  There were more outcomes than that -- in particular, Sam and Dean (our central characters, see what their 'brother' is doing and are deeply concerned). They also have determined an alternate plan for Kelly to keep her alive.  This episode affects their decision making for the remainder of the season.  And Cas' desire to relieve them of the burden of killing Kelly, explains why he took the sketchy actions he took.  Beyond outcomes, the episode provided more world-building in terms of the relationship b/w Cas and the boys.  All the little details that show how completely integrated he is into their lives. His own room, being held accountable for going off the radar. Etc...  He's acknowledging them as his family as much as they are acknowledging him.   

It's too simplistic to say if they hadn't had the villain monologue, everything would have turned out the same.  First, I don't think that's unambiguously true. Second, that boils the episode down to a very simple story. It's more complicated than that.  

[Diane]

1 minute ago, SueB said:

Their relationship with Cas WAS integral to this episode.

If you don't care about that, that's your prerogative. But that was a central piece of the episode. Showing us how MUCH Cas is family to the boys. How much slack they are willing to cut him and yet how worried they are for him.

For the boys, it was a character-relevant episode. Yes, they barely had fights or action sequences.  But that's not my measure of success.

It's not just a show about Sam and Dean anymore. If that's what you want, that's not what is keeping it on the air for 13 years.  The boys won't go back to brothers-only, they've made that really clear.  

But everything Cas did was motivated BY the Winchesters. He made his decision to kill Kelly himself so Sam and Dean didn't have to.  

I find the argument that they were not relevant to be only superficially plausible because while you argue you could come up with a different way to achieve the same outcome without Sam and Dean in the episode, that presumes that the only outcome that matters is that Cas is now protecting Kelly's baby and Dagon is dead.  There were more outcomes than that -- in particular, Sam and Dean (our central characters, see what their 'brother' is doing and are deeply concerned). They also have determined an alternate plan for Kelly to keep her alive.  This episode affects their decision making for the remainder of the season.  And Cas' desire to relieve them of the burden of killing Kelly, explains why he took the sketchy actions he took.  Beyond outcomes, the episode provided more world-building in terms of the relationship b/w Cas and the boys.  All the little details that show how completely integrated he is into their lives. His own room, being held accountable for going off the radar. Etc...  He's acknowledging them as his family as much as they are acknowledging him.   

It's too simplistic to say if they hadn't had the villain monologue, everything would have turned out the same.  First, I don't think that's unambiguously true. Second, that boils the episode down to a very simple story. It's more complicated than that.  

Very true and said better than I could do.

[DittyDotDot]

43 minutes ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

 It is impossible to argue Luke wasn't one of the main protagonists. He was one of only 2 remaining Jedi. 

Nothing's impossible if you try hard enough, just depends on motivation, IMO.

43 minutes ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

By their nature protagonists are utterly integral. It is THEIR story. They have agency. They are important to other protagonists. They make things happen. Things happen to them that drive the story forward. My point about this ep and much of this season is that that has not been the case for Sam and Dean as often or as clearly as it should have been. 

IMO, the show can't sustain Sam- and Dean-only anymore. Not only have they ran the gambit on their story, IMO, but the two guys who play Sam and Dean are wanting to step back and not work the hours it takes to pull that off. So, what's the show to do?

Edited April 28, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[ILoveReading]

26 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

IMO, the show can't sustain Sam- and Dean-only anymore. Not only have they ran the gambit on their story, IMO, but the two guys who play Sam and Dean are wanting to step back and not work the hours it takes to pull that off. So, what's the show to do?

Even with Jared and Jensen working part time, there are still ways to incorporate Sam and Dean into the stories.  For example, I liked the dynamic between Ketch and Dean.  As it stands right now, I dont' think Dean is anything more than a name on Ketch's list.  I don't think there is any kind of relationship or that Ketch has it in for Dean in particular.  But instead of a by the numbers story where Dean shows Ketch the error of his ways, use it to show Dean he's nothing like Ketch and maybe give him some true character growth and he realizes he's more than just a killer.

Or a cat and mouse game between Dean and Ketch.  Where maybe Dean prevented Ketch from completing some mission and it was Ketch's first failure and he wants revenge.

Sam is more tied to Lucifer than Dean is, so while Dean gets the focus on the Brits stories, Sam gets more focus in the Lucifer stuff.  But as of now, Sam and Dean are none exsistent in the mythology and Dean is non-existent in the MOTW. 

While, I have no problem on episodes focusing on guest stars, Sam and Dean have essentially really haven't contributed much to anything this season.

Edited April 28, 2017 by ILoveReading

[DittyDotDot]

9 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

While, I have no problem on episodes focusing on guest stars, Sam and Dean have essentially really haven't contributed much to anything this season.

I disagree. I think the entire season is about how much Sam and Dean contribute to the world at large. 

[Diane]

11 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Even with Jared and Jensen working part time, there are still ways to incorporate Sam and Dean into the stories.  For example, I liked the dynamic between Ketch and Dean.  As it stands right now, I dont' think Dean is anything more than a name on Ketch's list.  I don't think there is any kind of relationship or that Ketch has it in for Dean in particular.  But instead of a by the numbers story where Dean shows Ketch the error of his ways, use it to show Dean he's nothing like Ketch and maybe give him some true character growth and he realizes he's more than just a killer.

Or a cat and mouse game between Dean and Ketch.  Where maybe Dean prevented Ketch from completing some mission and it was Ketch's first failure and he wants revenge.

Sam is more tied to Lucifer than Dean is, so while Dean gets the focus on the Brits stories, Sam gets more focus in the Lucifer stuff.  But as of now, Sam and Dean are none exsistent in the mythology and Dean is non-existent in the MOTW. 

While, I have no problem on episodes focusing on guest stars, Sam and Dean have essentially really haven't contributed much to anything this season.

We will have to agree to disagree, because I feel just because you keep saying it doesn't make it true.  The boys save the world, even they finally are saying it.  Without Sam and Dean there would not be a show. This season has been about that.  They are not going to be in every scene anymore, Jensen and Jared don't want to work those kind of hours anymore and I don't blame them. The show is still about the 2 brothers and their influence on those around them.  It showed this week with Cas, he was heavily influenced by his relationship with them.

 

4 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I disagree. I think the entire season is about how much Sam and Dean contribute to the world at large. 

So true.

[ILoveReading]

http://www.tvguide.com/news/supernatural-recap-the-future/?ftag=TVG_Twitter

I saw this review and it sums up how I feel about the episode much better than I could.   In particular this,

Quote

Castiel and the Winchesters disagreeing about how to save the world from the latest flavor of the apocalypse is not new, though Sam (Jared Padalecki) and Dean (Jensen Ackles) spend so little time actually doing anything this season that it's hard to tell what Dean and Sam actually feel about anything at the moment. That whole harebrained "let's just suck all the grace out of the baby when it's born so that it's just a regular human baby and everyone lives" plan felt so contrived, just to remind us that Sam is The Brainy One, and the grace-extraction plot was, honestly, kind of silly the first time around and didn't work, even on a giant manly moose with a masochistic streak like Sam. Tell us more about how it was going to miraculously work on a newborn full of archangel grace?

Bolding mine.  Seems like fans aren't the only ones noticing, bloggers are too.

Edited April 28, 2017 by ILoveReading

[SueB]

8 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

http://www.tvguide.com/news/supernatural-recap-the-future/?ftag=TVG_Twitter

I saw this review and it sums up how I feel about the episode much better than I could.   In particular this,

Bolding mine.  Seems like fans aren't the only ones noticing, bloggers are too.

MaryAnn Sleasman has been following SPN for a long time. She has her POV and biases, just like everyone else. 

Another review:
https://www.tvfanatic.com/2017/04/supernatural-season-12-episode-19-review-the-future/

They are not effusive in praise but they didn't bring your issue out. 

My point: SPN has been on 12 years. It's nearly impossible to find an unbiased viewer.  You've got your Bronlies, you Destieler's, your Sam fans, your Dean fans.

If Vlada Geldman from TVLine complains about the lack of Sam and Dean, then I'd find that compelling, given her stated biases (Team Destiel).  

One thing I noticed about the second review, they are taking the bait that Dabb has put out.  I'm not saying I'm absolutely right, but seriously, if you presume Cas just made a big mistake, then your POV on the episode is likely to be less positive IMO.  If you think Dabb is baiting you to think that way, and Cas is actually right, then this looks like a redemption arc.  

And if you are MaryAnn Sleasman, you apparently AREN'T interesting in a Castiel sub-plot (as she clearly states right in her review). 

[DeeDee79]

3 hours ago, SueB said:

And if you are MaryAnn Sleasman, you apparently AREN'T interesting in a Castiel sub-plot (as she clearly states right in her review). 

I didn't read it as she wasn't interested; she basically just said that it's been done many times before. Then again with a show that's been on this long it's not unlikely to see some of the plotlines repeated even if they are tweaked a bit to make them different.

[rue721]

8 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

However, I realize the tape was Zepplin songs, so...

Isn't that kind of hilariously weird, though? Who makes a mixtape with just one band on it?

And ALSO, I had thought that if you made a mixtape on a cassette, you recorded off the radio. But it seems really strange to me that Dean would be recording a mixtape off the radio but only put Led Zeppelin songs on it? So was he recording off of his own cassette(s) of Led Zeppelin? If so, does this mean he has a two-cassette boombox? (How do you even record one cassette off of another?!) Can we please at least get a glimpse of Dean's ghetto blaster? I just need to see this shit. Especially if it's modded out ;)

Edited April 28, 2017 by rue721
I spell it wrong EVERY TIME

[DittyDotDot]

8 minutes ago, rue721 said:

And ALSO, I had thought that if you made a mixtape on a cassette, you recorded off the radio.

Not at all. Mixed tapes were no different than making a playlist on an iPod these days (except it was considerably more time consuming). Most the mixed tapes I once had were made with a dual cassette player. You'd key up the song you wanted on one deck and record it in the tape on the other. I don't recall anyone making one from the radio, but then again, we didn't have much radio reception were I grew up so the sound quality would've sucked. 

Anyway, I'm guessing it's not so much Dean made this tape for Cass, but it was a tape he made of his favorite Zeppelin songs--probably been carrying it around in that cassette tape collection he has for years--and gave it to Cass at some point. 

Edited April 28, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[rue721]

4 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Anyway, I'm guessing it's not so much Dean made this tape for Cass, but it was a tape he made of his favorite Zeppelin songs--probably been carrying it around in that cassette tape collection he has for years--and gave it to Cass at some point. 

Oh yeah OK -- I misread the screen and thought Dean had literally written "mixtape" on the cassette label, but I just rewatched the scene on YouTube to check and turns out he just put Dean's Top 13 Zepp Traxx. Which is still adorable, because "Traxx"?! But ah, that's too bad. I loved the weirdly limited-to-one-band mixtape.

6 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Not at all. Mixed tapes were no different than making a playlist on an iPod these days. Most the mixed tapes I once had were made with a dual cassette player. You'd key up the song you wanted on one deck and record it in the tape on the other. I don't recall anyone making one from the radio, but then again, we didn't have much radio reception were I grew up so the sound quality would've sucked. 

Whoa?! We did mixtapes by recording off the radio. They did indeed sound like shit. Most of the fun (and challenge) was in putting them together, though -- not so much listening to them.

LOL I know that description makes it sound like I'm talking about ye olden times but this was in, like, 2000. Still a long time ago but...Gosh it's so funny to think of this show starting out with Dean carrying around a bunch of cassettes, and how that went from plausibly luddite to hipster retro to just plain context-less/confusing, all within the course of the show's run.

[catrox14]

9 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Anyway, I'm guessing it's not so much Dean made this tape for Cass, but it was a tape he made of his favorite Zeppelin songs--probably been carrying it around in that cassette tape collection he has for years--and gave it to Cass at some point. 

Zepplin is Dean's favorite band. I can't imagine Desn labeling it as Dean's 13 Zeppelin Fav XX If it was his it would just read Zeppelin faves wouldn't it? He could hav relabeled it but the point is that he took the time to either make it for Cas, or changed the label. I'll even go so far to say he could have made it years ago for  someone else but he  still gave it to Cas because he wanted Cas to have something that Dean cared about and imo to remind Cas he has family and home with Dean and Sam when he's away.

[MysteryGuest]

Just finished watching the episode.  Not really sure what to think about Cas.  It absolutely reads like every other episode where Cas has been duped into doing something incredibly stupid.  I'd like to think that this time it will be different and that the writers are just leading us on, but I've seen nothing from the writers this season to indicate that they are clever enough to do that.  The writing has been pretty straightforward this season, even though we've frequently hoped that there was something else going on behind the scenes to explain the implausibility of some of the actions of the characters on screen.  So far, what we've seen is exactly what we've gotten.

I liked Kelly in the episode, and it would be nice if this could end well for her, but I don't see it happening.  I just don't know where they're going with this whole storyline.  If the baby is evil, then it's just another Lucifer that they'll spend all of their time trying to destroy.  And if the baby is good, then what?  Does the child kill his father?  Does baby Lucifer rule Heaven in God's absence?  I just don't see an ending that isn't totally contrived.  They wiggled themselves out of the God and Amara storyline last season, just to embroil themselves in an even sillier one this season.  Why?  

This was obviously a Cas centric episode which is perfectly fine, but I do hope to see more action from Sam and Dean in the last episodes of the season.  

[rue721]

4 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I'll even go so far to say he could have made it years ago for  someone else but he  still gave it to Cas because he wanted Cas to have something that Dean cared about and imo to remind Cas he has family and home with Dean and Sam when he's away.

Maybe someone else made it for Dean originally? Maybe it was a gift he was regifting (albeit like 30 yrs after the fact).

The wording on the label makes me think that it was originally made for Dean, but not necessarily by him. IMO if he'd made the tape himself, he would more likely have labeled it something like "Best Zepp" or "Top 13 Zepp" or something, not "Dean's Favorite Zepp Traxx" (btw I cannot get over the adorable-ness of Traxx lol).

You're good with details, @catrox14 -- any thoughts on the handwriting? :)

[DittyDotDot]

On 4/28/2017 at 6:25 PM, catrox14 said:

Zepplin is Dean's favorite band. I can't imagine Desn labeling it as Dean's 13 Zeppelin Fav XX If it was his it would just read Zeppelin faves wouldn't it? He could hav relabeled it but the point is that he took the time to either make it for Cas, or changed the label. I'll even go so far to say he could have made it years ago for  someone else but he  still gave it to Cas because he wanted Cas to have something that Dean cared about and imo to remind Cas he has family and home with Dean and Sam when he's away.

I wasn't suggesting it wasn't a meaningful gift. I just figure it was probably a tape he made years ago so he'd have a playlist of his favorite Zeppelin tunes to listen to on the road and at some point decided to give it to Cass. It doesn't make it any less meaningful. 

As to the label, the tape he popped in the stereo in Swan Song was labeled "Kick it in the Ass." People made silly labels for their mixed tapes. That was part of the fun.

Edited April 30, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[rue721]

6 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

As to the label, the tape he popped in the stereo in Swan Song was labeled "Kick it in the Ass." People made silly labels for their mixed tapes. That was part of the fun.

I think that's what they were going for, but "Dean's Favorite Zepp Traxx" is just such an awesomely dorky label. Like everything about it is dorky.

That's why I like it. But I'm also like, is Dean actually a giant dork (very possible) or is there some other giant dork in our midst who made that tape for him? ;) Just so intrigued by the possibilities.

ETA:  and nawwww I don't really have much to say about anything else in the episode, apparently. I dunno, it was alright, I guess?

Edited April 28, 2017 by rue721

[DittyDotDot]

6 minutes ago, rue721 said:

I think that's what they were going for, but "Dean's Favorite Zepp Traxx" is just such an awesomely dorky label. Like everything about it is dorky.

That's why I like it. But I'm also like, is Dean actually a giant dork (very possible) or is there some other giant dork in our midst who made that tape for him? ;)

Well, I think Dean is a dork. Always has been. One of the many reasons I love Dean.

I once had a tape I made labeled "Ditty's Fun Music". (Although my first name isn't actually Ditty, but I think you catch my drift.)

And, now I'm rather sad I gave my tape collection away about 10 years ago--although it went to a good home. I hadn't listened to any of the tapes in ages because I didn't have a tape player any longer, but I had some fun mixes in there that were given to me lovingly. And, had some fun mixes I made myself too.

Edited April 29, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[Macbeth]

23 hours ago, Advance35 said:

Lucifer/MP is always good but his scene tonight when he was chastising Daigon was....wow.  The writers don't let him show his menacing enough because the actor did that REALLY well.

A thousand times yes.  That was an amazing scene.  Lucifer, as played by MP, does not like to loose his cool or control.  That was really good.

I loved this episode.  Castiel failing once again to be a proper Angel, there was no way he was ever going to be able to kill a pregnant woman.  It could be the reason God keeps resurrecting him.  I am on Team Cas too.  Always have been.  It would be nice if he was right, just as he was when he took Dean and Sam's side during the apocalypse.

Of course we are probably going to get in the future the obligatory scene paying homage to "Three Men and a Baby."  Three actors with a van full of kids pretending they know nothing about babies.

And of course Dean made a mix tape for Castiel.

[ilovedean27]

Quote

 if you presume Cas just made a big mistake, then your POV on the episode is likely to be less positive IMO.

I didn't like the episode, but I don't think the baby will be evil. Therefore, I don't think Cas made a mistake in protecting Kelly and the baby.

Cas's mistake, in my opinion, was repeatedly lying, manipulating, and betraying the Winchesters. I didn't like that and his actions turned me off the character, for now. I guess I'll know how much my opinion of the character has been damaged the next time he pops up.

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, rue721 said:

You're good with details, @catrox14 -- any thoughts on the handwriting? :)

Hmm. I'll have to look at other things Dean has written.  They haven't shown Dean's handwriting all that often but I'll do some research! 

The other option I thought about is that maybe Dean gave it to Cas and just said these are my favorite Zeppelin songs, hope you like them and Cas put the label on it? I can see that being something Cas would do. Of course, I don't know why Cas would write Traxx with x's but maybe with some of his pop culture download he thought it was the way to do it?

Edited April 29, 2017 by catrox14

[auntvi]

Just a few things I noticed.

• Hate the music playing over the montage of Sam doing research. It's so different from the usually good music. Similar to the strange music for Ketch and company searching the bunker.
• Interesting stuff Sam was drawing on the map table. The symbols I noticed were for the astrological signs Virgo, Gemini and Cancer.
• Daegon watching a game show on TV and laughing at the contestants was funny.
• Lucifer's scream was disturbing and terrifying.

Honestly, I'm just relieved it isn't Sam who is the lying yet well-meaning dupe.

Edited April 29, 2017 by auntvi

[rue721]

13 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Of course, I don't know why Cas would write Traxx with x's but maybe with some of his pop culture download he thought it was the way to do it?

I don't think that Cas is enough of a goof to do that.

Honestly, it was probably just Dean!

But so many intriguing possibilities spring to mind based on that tape -- my favorites:

1. Three out of four Winchesters love Led Zeppelin, so there might also be a John's Fav Traxx tape and a Mary's Fav Traxx tape still buried in Dean's ancient box of cassettes. Is there a Sam's Fav Papa Roach Traxx in there, too? ;)

2. Maybe these were Dean's favorite tracks when he was a kid and one of his parents or somebody else from wayyyyy back when made the tape for him back in the day. Can't you just see little kid Dean being like, "I want to play MY tape!" while in the car? Hilarious and adorable to me for so many reasons.

3. So, was Cas trying to give it back because he doesn't actually like Zeppelin? :P

4. Is there is there another cassette called Shitty Zeppelin that are all the worst tracks, that Dean puts on when his favs are overplayed? I do that with Nirvana, periodically "rediscover" the "bad" tracks. And btw if I tried to give my bff a Nirvana mix named "Rue's Fav Nirvana Traxx," she would be like, "so, all of them?" I love that Dean apparently curated it down to 13.

Why it amuses me so much to imagine this tape being made, I don't know.

There is now a B-Side to this season. It includes such fabulous "missing" scenes as Dean creating this tape, and Dean and Sam going on their back-to-back monster hunts prior to the one they went on with Mick...and probably many more, as I think of them :P

[RulerofallIsurvey]

Whoa - that episode!  Whoa...  Okay: disclaimers time: I just watched.  And I had several distractions, so I had to keep pausing (I started at 6:30 and just finished a few minutes ago!  Lol!)  Also managed to stay clear of the forum so I have not been spoiled since early Thursday or read comments.  Still - that ending...  But first things first:

• I decided about 1 nanosecond into that first bunker scene that I was definitely here for the pretty.  No matter what else happened, or didn't: I LIKE seeing the fellas every week fighting the good fight and looking good while doing it.  Continuity?  Who the f cares about continuity?  Not me.  Really don't right now*  (*Subject to change).  Continuity can go screw itself along with Lucifer as long as Sam and Dean are on my screen having new adventures and not bitching at each other.  That being said:
• Awww....Dean is a bitch when he cares.  I think though that maybe he was taking some of his frustration about Mary out on Cas.  And Sam was a doll when his face fell after Dean told him they were not just happy no questions asked that Cas was back.  Although really: Sam just be happy if you want to be, baby.
• This episode had several good surprises along the way for me - at least not the way I expected things to play out.  Whether the way things do play out is good or bad remains to be seen.  But at least it's interesting and I can't tell what is going to happen!
• I liked that the guys "found another way" - even if that didn't work out.  They found a potential way to save both Kelly and the baby, which is what they should be doing - and they were both on board with it.  Love, Love, LOVE when the brothers really work together.    
• The previouslies showing Eileen shooting the dippy BMoL idiot has me worried for her now.
•  I thought the interaction between Lucifer and Dagon was interesting and made me wonder about the connection between Lucifer and his 'princes': like could they control the connection?  It didn't seem like Dagon could stop Lucifer from reaching through and hurting her.  Maybe that's why Ramiel was so keen on laying low? If they didn't initiate the connection, it weakened over time and Lucifer couldn't find them.  (I'm kind of nerdy and like thinking about things like that.)
• I also wonder why (other than Plot) Kelly didn't stab herself in the stomach when she tried to kill herself.  I thought that was what she was going to do at first, rather than just cut her wrists.  I mean, if you want to be SURE that your half-angelic child won't survive to do terrible things to the world...
• I thought about @rue721 when Kelly was talking about the baby not being born bad!  (You Know You Read Too Much Previously TV Supernatural Forum Threads...  Lol.)
• I liked Kelly having Faith.  And I liked Cas' talk with her, because from his POV that made sense, but I think a sense of Faith has been missing from the show for awhile, so it was nice to see it back.  Now, where they go with it, and whether it's good or bad or justified is another matter.  I thought for sure when they were talking about who was going to take care of the baby when Kelly was gone was going to be Mary as has been speculated about on here.  (speaking of You Know You Read Too Much PTV Supernatural Forum threads...)  I'm glad it wasn't Mary.  
• I don't like the colt being melted.  (Wonder if they could re-forge the parts?) or Joshua being smoked.  I so wanted Joshua to be good guy and help, but in the end, he really did nothing.  I do like Dagon going up in flames.  
• And that ending - with Cas saying the baby showed him the future: just Whoa.  It's going to be interesting to see how this plays out.  
• I definitely think that Lucifer and this storyline is going to be what runs over into S13 - probably not the BMoL.  Which, as long as Lucifer is still on some sort of a leash, I don't think that's too bad.  (Really, he's just too powerful for the show to have him loose.) And like I said, I think it's going to be interesting to see where the show goes with the nephilim storyline with Cas and this new-found Faith of his.