S03.E02: Witness

[JudyObscure]

9 hours ago, Auntie Anxiety said:

 Chuck is an ungrateful asshole who is still living out his childish jealousy and his sibling rivalry with Jimmy. It was highlighted when Mrs. McGill was on her death bed last season; Jimmy went out to get some sandwiches while Chuck stayed behind in her hospital room and their mother's last words were "Where's Jimmy?" She couldn't care less that Chuck was there at her bedside, being a good son. Chuck never told Jimmy that their mother asked for him right before she died because he was so pissed that their mother loved Jimmy more. But then again, everyone prefers Jimmy over Chuck.

All these things just make me more sympathetic to Chuck.  Everybody prefers Jimmy.  Even Chuck's mother likes him better than Jimmy.  Chuck's wife, Rebecca immediately liked Jimmy and laughed at his jokes.  I find all that very sad for Chuck, and I definitely was disappointed in Jimmy for that below the belt blow about why Rebecca left Chuck.  As for Chuck not telling Jimmy his mother asked for him, maybe Chuck's motive was jealousy, but if I had sat by my mother's bedside for two days and then, the minute hunger broke me and I went out to get food, she asked for me and I wasn't there for her?  I would have kicked myself forever over that.  I definitely would not want to know.

Of course, I'm like everyone else and find Jimmy the loveable, funny one and I, too, like him best, but I can't ever really hate Chuck, because, while he's had the "successful," life, I get the feeling he has never felt loved.  Jimmy on the other hand is liked by almost everyone he meets and, I think, loved by Kim.  When Kim looks at Jimmy's sad face  (and boy can the actor do a heart breaking sad face)  Kim looks like she's going to cry and I feel like it, too.

Chuck is a pretentious snob who treats people like they're beneath him while Jimmy is patient with old people and has just the right thing to say to everyone.  I think he is basically a very kind person.  However. who does lasting harm to people?  What are the ripple effects of the con's Jimmy has pulled?  We know his father lost his business.  We know the young Air Force Captain was hurt and humiliated when he found out Jimmy had made a fool of him. 

I don't think anything is black and white here or that Chuck = Bad and Jimmy= Good.  That's what I love about this show.

[nodorothyparker]

This is one we knew was coming but when it did it was just so so sooo damn hard to watch.  We already know from BB that Jimmy will soon become Saul and head down a trajectory toward very bad things, but I've found throughout this that at every point there's some small part of me screaming at him not to do it, to just walk away and embrace the practice and life he's made for himself.  But of course that's not going to happen and so you have Jimmy just hitting that last final straw with Chuck in a roiling scene of heartbreak and barely contained fury and breaking into his house like a madman.  

I can appreciate what they're trying to do with Mike, showing how patient and methodical he is in contrast to Jimmy, but the lateness of the time slot and the darkness of the scenes is making it really tough to stay awake throughout.  I'm a little surprised that Mike would have thought Jimmy a good choice to be conducting his restaurant surveillance, knowing Jimmy as he does, but Jimmy's respectable looking enough and he doesn't seem to have any other options.  Jimmy couldn't have been more obvious if he had tried and the shot of him all the way up to his shoulders in the trash can was hysterical.   I loved the out of focus glimpses of that yellow shirt always right behind Jimmy or in the same frame where he was looking because it established that Gus was seeing all of this too before we ever actually saw him.

Jimmy was like a little kid on that caper, practically begging Mike to get to do more.  That's one of the quieter tragedies of Jimmy's story.  He's shown a real ability to be a good guy and get people to like him, as seen with all the senior citizens specifically coming to him for legal help.  He probably could have made a nice respectable life for himself on that.  But the lure of the con and all the shady stuff is just so strong for him that he jumps at the first chance to do that instead.

Howard pulling a Bueller and running through back yards in his expensive suit was funny but I'm a little disappointed that he's going along with this.  Not surprised because Howard has always kowtowed to Chuck and his insanity, but disappointed.  It seems like they're counting on Jimmy keeping his mouth shut about what finally provoked him and what was on the tape to keep from incriminating himself and just making it a simple B&E but have they at all considered what the blowback for HHM will be if he doesn't?  All the stuff with a clearly mentally ill partner and mishandling client files?  The shot of Ernesto and Kim sitting in the car talking about it hit me like a ton of bricks as it seemed like they were both realizing they're in danger of becoming collateral damage in Chuck and Jimmy's war.  I don't think Kim is all in or just fine with any of this as much as considering that this is how she got Mesa Verde.  She shares an office and a life with Jimmy and if he goes down, there's a good possibility some of that may spill over on to her as well.  She's naturally a fixer and trying to stop the train that's already rolling.  She knew he was devastated, she just didn't expect Jimmy to go off half cocked at that exact moment as he did.

[benteen]

I can sympathize with Chuck to a degree and I don't blame him for everything.  But the way Chuck treats people to me is the most accurate reflection of the man that he is and that is not a good man.  That I think is likely to be Chuck's downfall.

Edited April 18, 2017 by benteen

[ShadowFacts]

6 hours ago, Lonesome Rhodes said:

Question:  As super-friendly and earnest as the folks at LPH are, why wasn't a bigger fuss made by the earnest cashier over the regular appearance of knapsack dude?   Why would she have given him the exact same third-degree with the upsell questions?  

Not sure if I am getting what you're asking, but there are maybe multiple cashiers who work different shifts and newer ones wouldn't yet recognize regulars? 

51 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I am not 100% sure, but I think after Jimmy's fiasco at LPH, Fring figured out that Mike had been tracking his men and intentionally let Mike track them, so he could leave him the phone.  It was a bit like Chuck intentionally allowing Ernie to "accidentally" here the Jimmy tape.

I admit to being a little fuzzy on all this cat-and-mouse, but I thought that even before Jimmy's fiasco, Gus had figured out Mike's movements and that is why the backpack wasn't left anywhere or exchanged. 

[ghoulina]

3 minutes ago, nodorothyparker said:

We already know from BB that Jimmy will soon become Saul and head down a trajectory toward very bad things, but I've found throughout this that at every point there's some small part of me screaming at him not to do it, to just walk away and embrace the practice and life he's made for himself.

Oh, I'm the same way. I love the old people! He really has a way of reaching out to them on their level, without being condescending. It's so cute. And the writers do a good job of getting different old people and different little quirks every week. It's fun. I wish I could just happily imagine Jimmy doing that forever, with Kim next door handling corporate clients. Alas, we know it is not to be. But I think what makes this show so great is that we DO know all that is to come, yet in the moment we can almost forget it and start rooting for things to go a certain way. It really puts a spell on you. 

 

5 minutes ago, benteen said:

I can sympathize with Chuck to a degree and I don't blame him for everything.  But the way Chuck treats people to me is the most accurate reflection of the man that he is and that is not a good man.  That I think is likely to be Chuck's downfall.

I agree. I think that it's quite possible that even if there were no Jimmy, no sibling rivalry, Chuck would still be an insufferable ass who treats people with complete contempt. I, for one, don't really believe that Jimmy's parents necessarily favored him and left Chuck out in the cold. That was likely just HIS perception of things. Being that he was so intelligent and made a great career for himself, I imagine they were probably pretty proud of him and Jimmy might have often felt like the black sheep. 

[Bryce Lynch]

6 minutes ago, JudyObscure said:

All these things just make me more sympathetic to Chuck.  Everybody prefers Jimmy.  Even Chuck's mother likes him better than Jimmy.  Chuck's wife, Rebecca immediately liked Jimmy and laughed at his jokes.  I find all that very sad for Chuck, and I definitely was disappointed in Jimmy for that below the belt blow about why Rebecca left Chuck.  As for Chuck not telling Jimmy his mother asked for him, maybe Chuck's motive was jealousy, but if I had sat by my mother's bedside for two days and then, the minute hunger broke me and I went out to get food, she asked for me and I wasn't there for her?  I would have kicked myself forever over that.  I definitely would not want to know.

Of course, I'm like everyone else and find Jimmy the loveable, funny one and I, too, like him best, but I can't ever really hate Chuck, because, while he's had the "successful," life, I get the feeling he has never felt loved.  Jimmy on the other hand is liked by almost everyone he meets and, I think, loved by Kim.  When Kim looks at Jimmy's sad face  (and boy can the actor do a heart breaking sad face)  Kim looks like she's going to cry and I feel like it, too.

Chuck is a pretentious snob who treats people like they're beneath him while Jimmy is patient with old people and has just the right thing to say to everyone.  I think he is basically a very kind person.  However. who does lasting harm to people?  What are the ripple effects of the con's Jimmy has pulled?  We know his father lost his business.  We know the young Air Force Captain was hurt and humiliated when he found out Jimmy had made a fool of him. 

I don't think anything is black and white here or that Chuck = Bad and Jimmy= Good.  That's what I love about this show.

I totally agree.  I think you could make a show, with the same characters doing the same things, but tell the story from Chuck's perspective in a way that would make us all hate Jimmy.   

Chuck reminds me a bit of Hank from BB.  Obviously, the characters are totally different.  But they are both antagonists, but not really "bad guys".  They each have their irritating qualities (Chuck is pretentious, snobbish, overbearing and nuts.  Hank is a foul mouthed, mocks everyone, often with racially charged humor and a bit of a blowhard and self promoter.) But, both are basically upstanding individuals and outstanding professionals in their fields.  It's not Chuck's fault his baby brother is a charismatic, lovable, con artist and it is not Hank's fault that his brother in law turned into a violent meth kingpin. 

After their mother died, I think Chuck was both trying to protect Jimmy from the guilt he would feel if he knew his mother cried out for him and he was out getting a sandwich, AND, out of jealously, denying Jimmy the knowledge that "Mom liked him best", though that might not have really been the case. 

Both Jimmy and Chuck are very complex characters with good and bad motives (often at the same time) and that is part of what makes them so great. 

[ShadowFacts]

19 minutes ago, JudyObscure said:

I don't think anything is black and white here or that Chuck = Bad and Jimmy= Good.  That's what I love about this show.

Yes, and I love your entire post, I could never say it nearly as well.

11 minutes ago, nodorothyparker said:

I don't think Kim is all in or just fine with any of this as much as considering that this is how she got Mesa Verde.  She shares an office and a life with Jimmy and if he goes down, there's a good possibility some of that may spill over on to her as well.  She's naturally a fixer and trying to stop the train that's already rolling.  She knew he was devastated, she just didn't expect Jimmy to go off half cocked at that exact moment as he did.

I think Kim certainly has a self-preservation motive, but I also see her as loving Jimmy, which clouds her judgment.  She has mixed motives, just like most of the rest of the characters.  I'm remembering her taste for the cons of gullible men in bars. 

Like others, I thought while watching their scenes in their kind of beautiful office suite that Jimmy and Kim could have had nice, successful practices, they had everything going for them at the moment.  But it isn't only Jimmy's messed-up brother that is going to bring him down, it is his love of the excitement that he never lost from his youth.  It is really part of him. 

[nodorothyparker]

7 minutes ago, ghoulina said:

Quote

We already know from BB that Jimmy will soon become Saul and head down a trajectory toward very bad things, but I've found throughout this that at every point there's some small part of me screaming at him not to do it, to just walk away and embrace the practice and life he's made for himself.

Oh, I'm the same way. I love the old people! He really has a way of reaching out to them on their level, without being condescending. It's so cute. And the writers do a good job of getting different old people and different little quirks every week. It's fun. I wish I could just happily imagine Jimmy doing that forever, with Kim next door handling corporate clients. Alas, we know it is not to be. But I think what makes this show so great is that we DO know all that is to come, yet in the moment we can almost forget it and start rooting for things to go a certain way. It really puts a spell on you. 

It was actually kind of painful at the end last night, knowing as I do of every bad thing to come in BB and then that lonely counter at the Omaha Cinnabon, that I could still be yelling at my TV as Jimmy's breaking down the door that Chuck isn't worth this.  He isn't worth losing his relatively good life with Kim.  That the writing manages to pull that off is consistently impressive to me.

It's almost as impressive as realizing that Jimmy did a pretty bad thing to everybody involved switching out the Mesa Verde files even if he thought it was for a good reason and yet we rooted for him to get away with it and see Chuck as the giant asshole in the story for wanting him to suffer consequences for it.

[Dev F]

24 minutes ago, ShadowFacts said:

Not sure if I am getting what you're asking, but there are maybe multiple cashiers who work different shifts and newer ones wouldn't yet recognize regulars?

Knowing Gus, it's not entirely out of the realm of possibility that he has strict rules on how his employees need to stick to the sales script and not call out regulars, which he could frame as being about treating every customer with equal respect but is in fact about not betraying familiarity with any shady cartel minions.

[Auntie Anxiety]

6 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

 

Jimmy needs to have Mike deal with Chuck, since Mike is far more methodical.

I thought for sure that Jimmy was going to ask Mike to sneak into Chuck's place at some point and steal the tape recorder but Jimmy's anger blinded him. His emotions are his Achilles' heel.

[BeatrixK]

3 hours ago, theodyssey said:

I look forward to appearances and foreshadowing for Breaking Bad. But the one person who CAN NOT appear at all is Walter White. He doesn't know Mike, Saul or Gus before the events of Breaking Bad. They can't undermine that. If they get in Brian Cranston, they're cheating. And obviously he can't appear in the flash-forwards.

I'd kind of accept Jesse in a season or two, after "Jimmy" has taken on his new name. Jesse and Saul seemed to have met before when Breaking Bad introduced Saul. But I still think they should avoid it really. It just draws comparisons. This is a different show.

Almost anyone else works. I'd be surprised if we didn't get Skinny Pete or Badger eventually.

Oh, he absolutely can -- and I can totally see it now:  Whenever Jimmy gets his 'Saul' car...he will take it to A1A car cash....and get a token to be given to his car wash professional....by Walter White.

[mattie0808]

I can't ever really hate Chuck, because, while he's had the "successful," life, I get the feeling he has never felt loved.

I can never really empathize or sympathize with Chuck on this point, because, at the very least, JIMMY has absolutely loved him. Absolutely loved him at his worst. I think Chuck honestly feels he's simply owed being catered to and taken care of, no matter how onerous a task it may be, so Jimmy's care-taking of him once he went off the deep end with his electricity sensitivity thing doesn't register as anything other than a lesser (all people are lesser to him in his eyes, but especially Jimmy) doing what he owes his better. Or, Chuck was so distracted by always trying to keep Jimmy down or take Jimmy down, he didn't notice that his brother is almost certainly the only person in the world who honestly cares about and for him in any way (Howard's interests are mainly professional and about protecting HHM, IMO). Jimmy clearly loves Chuck no matter how little he gets back from Chuck, no matter how much Chuck is focused on hating and disdaining and destroying him.

Chuck would rather be bitter about and triumphant over his brother than in any way acknowledge any good characteristics in Jimmy, but that's his own fault/flaw. Personally, I don't buy this "Mom loved Jimmy best" thing either. I mean, she might well have been delirious in the seconds before she passed. She might have seen/felt that Chuck was there and was simply asking where Jimmy was (so if Chuck had gotten the sandwiches, she would have said "Chuck" instead). There doesn't even need to be a "Mom liked Jimmy better" or "Mom was always worried for Jimmy more" element to the flashback to her death, though those are also fairly straightforward explanations that certainly don't imply that the mother didn't love Chuck or didn't love him as much. If Chuck is the type who gets crazed about not feeling loved because his wife dares finds his brother funny...well, I tend to think that's not because of him experiencing a lack of love over the course of his life. He chooses to be upset about not being likable to the point he'll ruin his brother over it. That is not a good person.

I hope this episode truly is the breaking point for Jimmy as far as him trying to be brothers with Chuck, get Chuck's approval, etc., etc. It seemed like it, I hope it sticks.

[Wouldofshouldof]

11 hours ago, Sharper2002 said:

And Gus!!! I'm a huge Gus Fring fan

IKR?  My son posed with him at Walker Stalker Con a couple of years ago:

[Bryce Lynch]

I noticed Francesca's last name is Liddy.  Any relation go G. Gordon?

5 minutes ago, BeatrixK said:

Oh, he absolutely can -- and I can totally see it now:  Whenever Jimmy gets his 'Saul' car...he will take it to A1A car cash....and get a token to be given to his car wash professional....by Walter White.

That would be epic!  They would, of course, also need to bring back Bogdan,  and his eyebrows, to order Walt to leave the register and wipe down the LWYRUP mobile. 

Edited April 18, 2017 by Bryce Lynch

[Wouldofshouldof]

10 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

I might not agree with Jimmy about everything, but he was right about this, at least: from my experience, older people do seem to like Cracker Barrel...

LOL - My dad always liked it, but a few years after he passed away I offered to take my mom there and she declined, saying "Your dad always wanted to go there but I don't care for it much."

[tennisgurl]

I enjoy the Breaking Bad references. As long as we don't get into Star Wars Prequel territory (did you know Darth Vader built C3PO? Small galaxy, right?) I get a kick out of seeing some of the old characters and locations, and seeing how we got from BCS to BB. Plus, we got to see El Pollo Hermanos! I got to go the actual place over the summer on a road trip (I convinced my fellow travelers to stop by for lunch!) and it was really cool! Its not really called El Pollo Hermanos, but it is a New Mexico chain serving Mexican food, and they still have the Los Hermanos sign up, and have a plaque next to the booth they shot at a lot, and sell some memorabilia. It was an interesting mix of tourists taking pictures, and locals coming in for lunch. The food was actually really good!

Really good episode, and I continue to want to smack the hell out of Chuck. I know it sucks that he works hard and takes the law seriously, but everyone loves charismatic, lovable rogue Jimmy, but he's so bitter and such a dick, he seems to cause a lot of his own misery.

[Bryce Lynch]

11 minutes ago, mattie0808 said:

 

I can never really empathize or sympathize with Chuck on this point, because, at the very least, JIMMY has absolutely loved him. Absolutely loved him at his worst. I think Chuck honestly feels he's simply owed being catered to and taken care of, no matter how onerous a task it may be, so Jimmy's care-taking of him once he went off the deep end with his electricity sensitivity thing doesn't register as anything other than a lesser (all people are lesser to him in his eyes, but especially Jimmy) doing what he owes his better. Or, Chuck was so distracted by always trying to keep Jimmy down or take Jimmy down, he didn't notice that his brother is almost certainly the only person in the world who honestly cares about and for him in any way (Howard's interests are mainly professional and about protecting HHM, IMO). Jimmy clearly loves Chuck no matter how little he gets back from Chuck, no matter how much Chuck is focused on hating and disdaining and destroying him.

Chuck would rather be bitter about and triumphant over his brother than in any way acknowledge any good characteristics in Jimmy, but that's his own fault/flaw. Personally, I don't buy this "Mom loved Jimmy best" thing either. I mean, she might well have been delirious in the seconds before she passed. She might have seen/felt that Chuck was there and was simply asking where Jimmy was (so if Chuck had gotten the sandwiches, she would have said "Chuck" instead). There doesn't even need to be a "Mom liked Jimmy better" or "Mom was always worried for Jimmy more" element to the flashback to her death, though those are also fairly straightforward explanations that certainly don't imply that the mother didn't love Chuck or didn't love him as much. If Chuck is the type who gets crazed about not feeling loved because his wife dares finds his brother funny...well, I tend to think that's not because of him experiencing a lack of love over the course of his life. He chooses to be upset about not being likable to the point he'll ruin his brother over it. That is not a good person.

I hope this episode truly is the breaking point for Jimmy as far as him trying to be brothers with Chuck, get Chuck's approval, etc., etc. It seemed like it, I hope it sticks.

The way Jimmy took care of Chuck is the one thing that gives a certain moral superiority to Jimmy.  Though, in fairness, Chuck had rescued Jimmy years earlier and given him a new life.

The "Mom loved Jimmy best" thing made me think of Jesse and Jake Pinkman.  When Jesse told his "perfect" little brother than he was their parents' favorite, Jake looked at him like he was crazy and said something like "Me their favorite?  All they ever talk about is you!"  Like Jake, Chuck may have mistaken all the concern and worrying over his troubled sibling as meaning his parents loved Jimmy more. 

[Ohwell]

24 minutes ago, Wouldofshouldof said:

IKR?  My son posed with him at Walker Stalker Con a couple of years ago:

Your son looks scared shitless, and rightly so! : )

[peeayebee]

11 hours ago, Sharper2002 said:

Howard scaling the wall was hilarious. Doing dirty work is clearly not his thing.

I love that awkward run/walk he was doing with his arms at his sides.

 

Quote

Because it can't be said enough, Kim and that damned Cindy Brady ponytail. Girl, let it go.

I like her ponytail.

While I like last week's deliberateness with Mike taking apart his car and then setting up the tracking device, I was a little bored with his tracking and surveilling his prey this week. It seemed too self-conscious to me. Still, I got a kick out of hearing someone sweeping while Jimmy sat in LPH, and then seeing the yellow shirt approaching.

Didn't the guy with the backpack leave something on the floor where his pack had been? I thought there was a dark rectangle of something. I thought Gus was supposed to sweep it up, but maybe Gus had already made Jimmy by that point.

Poor Jimmy. I felt terrible when he learned Chuck had taped him, that Chuck was not out of his mind at that time but had set him up. 

I like how nice and bubbly Francesca is right now. It's funny imagining how she basically reverts to the stereotypical DMV employee.

[benteen]

I agree about Walt not appearing on this show though I'd love to see a "sideways" BB story.  Basically like a lost story of BB that involves some Saul characters.  That's the only way a Walt appearance can look.

Working with Jimmy did a number on Francesca.

[ghoulina]

7 minutes ago, peeayebee said:

I like her ponytail.

I like it too. I think her hair naturally curly/wavy. She keeps it in a ponytail, to have a sleek, professional look, but it might just curl up like that on its own. Either way, I think it's cute but not unprofessional or anything. 

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

Better Call Saul Shows Us The Grubby Moment Jimmy Met Gus

Now here are a couple of guys who aren't afraid to get their hands dirty.

[Bannon]

I will say again that for a show that makes me laugh all the time, I cannot believe how sad it is.  Watching Chuck's expression as Jimmy did the unexpected, with a direct confrontation about the tape, with Jimmy completely unfiltered, was, well, the complete destruction of a sibling relationship is an awful thing. We also again saw the beginning of the end of the last remaining thing Jimmy values, beside his love of the hustle, which is his relationship with Kim. The details of how that relationship is destroyed remain to be seen, but destruction looms, and since the writers, Odenkirk, and Seehorn have done such a marvelous job of establishing the basis and real strength of the love between these two characters, that looming destruction is just hideously sad.

I suspect that Jimmy is going to counter Chuck through Howard. Jimmy is going to pursue a strategy of mutually assured destruction, now that he sees Chuck as just another A-hole mark who deserves whatever awful thing that Jimmy can inflict upon him. If Chuck tries to have Jimmy prosecuted,

Spoiler

as next week's preview indicates,

 Jimmy, acting as his own defense lawyer, can forgo any plea bargain which would be offered, which would include a surrender of his license to practice law, insist on a jury trial, and then HHM can be destroyed as a law firm, once it is made clear what Howard was willing to do to keep Chuck working as an active partner, despite a debilitating mental illness which impacted clients in a nagative fashion. Howard's just too egotistically stupid yet to grasp that Jimmy McGill has very little to lose, and can inflict fatal or near fatal consequences on HHM. I think Jimmy is now going to painfully educate Howard, and the education is going to cause Howard to betray Chuck, which will devastate Chuck, with fatal results eventually (I dont think Chuck can be alive in the BB universe), and in some fashion destroy Jimmy and Kim's relationship. I think it is going to be a terrible thing that I cant look away from. 

Edited April 18, 2017 by Bannon
typo

[Eulipian 5k]

What was Howard doing all that skulking about for? Even Chuck saw that he parked 2 blocks away. I thought he was going to steal the tape.

[Bannon]

1 minute ago, Eulipian 5k said:

What was Howard doing all that skulking about for? Even Chuck saw that he parked 2 blocks away. I thought he was going to steal the tape.

Chuck asked him to park a couple blocks away, and not come in the front door, because Chuck's paranoid that Jimmy is spying on him, like at the print shop.

[LoneHaranguer]

2 hours ago, benteen said:

It'll be interesting to see Jimmy try to get out of this one because he'd have to admit why he acted the way he did in the first place.  Saying "I was trying to destroy evidence that I committed a crime" isn't going to work.

The right truths would go a long way. As he told Kim, he said what he thought he had to say to rescue Chuck. The fact that it was recorded suggested that Chuck had some sort of ulterior motive, and it was now apparent if was all a con. One of the best things that Jimmy could probably do is congratulate Chuck in a way that makes Chuck realize that he's guilty of being like the Slippin' Jimmy he hates.

[mrspidey]

It's quite sad. Had Jimmy waited one more day with confronting Chuck, Howard would not have been there and neither would've been the PI, most likely.

Edited April 18, 2017 by mrspidey

[Dianaofthehunt]

This question is for Vince Gilligan as much as anyone else, but I can’t figure out why HHM keeps Chuck on the payroll. He’s an obvious nut-job, does no actual day-to-day work, an embarrassment (what with the phone & watch collecting, lights-off meetings when he deigns to come in) and an all-around liability to the company.

Why don’t they insist on therapy as a condition of his continued employment? It’s just not plausible to me that he still has a job with them. It’s obvious that Howard is at the end of his rope with him (although the last scene throws that statement out the window, I guess.)

[knaankos]

3 hours ago, ghoulina said:

Oh, I'm the same way. I love the old people! He really has a way of reaching out to them on their level, without being condescending. It's so cute. And the writers do a good job of getting different old people and different little quirks every week. It's fun. I wish I could just happily imagine Jimmy doing that forever, with Kim next door handling corporate clients. Alas, we know it is not to be. But I think what makes this show so great is that we DO know all that is to come, yet in the moment we can almost forget it and start rooting for things to go a certain way. It really puts a spell on you. 

 

I agree. I think that it's quite possible that even if there were no Jimmy, no sibling rivalry, Chuck would still be an insufferable ass who treats people with complete contempt. I, for one, don't really believe that Jimmy's parents necessarily favored him and left Chuck out in the cold. That was likely just HIS perception of things. Being that he was so intelligent and made a great career for himself, I imagine they were probably pretty proud of him and Jimmy might have often felt like the black sheep. 

Very true. Because no matter how much charisma a child has, in the end for parents it always circled back to "how's school?" "How's the job?" "When are you getting married?" Etc. 

the fact that chuck seemingly didn't have issues in those departments, makes me think their parents had quite a bit of love for Chuck. 

[nodorothyparker]

7 minutes ago, Dianaofthehunt said:

This question is for Vince Gilligan as much as anyone else, but I can’t figure out why HHM keeps Chuck on the payroll. He’s an obvious nut-job, does no actual day-to-day work, an embarrassment (what with the phone & watch collecting, lights-off meetings when he deigns to come in) and an all-around liability to the company.

Why don’t they insist on therapy as a condition of his continued employment? It’s just not plausible to me that he still has a job with them. It’s obvious that Howard is at the end of his rope with him (although the last scene throws that statement out the window, I guess.)

Chuck's not on the payroll.  He's a partner, which is basically the equivalent of having a part ownership in the firm.  If they want him out they pretty much have to buy him out.  Jimmy mentioned in one of the very first episodes that it would cost them $17 million to make that happen, which they can't afford without completely gutting operations.  Howard obviously doesn't want to risk Chuck demanding that so he has no choice but to continue kowtowing to him.

[benteen]

12 minutes ago, Dianaofthehunt said:

This question is for Vince Gilligan as much as anyone else, but I can’t figure out why HHM keeps Chuck on the payroll. He’s an obvious nut-job, does no actual day-to-day work, an embarrassment (what with the phone & watch collecting, lights-off meetings when he deigns to come in) and an all-around liability to the company.

Why don’t they insist on therapy as a condition of his continued employment? It’s just not plausible to me that he still has a job with them. It’s obvious that Howard is at the end of his rope with him (although the last scene throws that statement out the window, I guess.)

Don't forget as well the time he was brought to the hospital by the police, whom he wouldn't allow in his house.  I get that Chuck is supposed to be a brilliant lawyer but HHM would get rid of him once word got out about his behavior.  Companies would not want to get involved with someone who acts like Chuck, who is as mentally unstable as Chuck is.  His behavior would cost the firm a lot of clients and a lot of money.

[Bryce Lynch]

8 minutes ago, benteen said:

Don't forget as well the time he was brought to the hospital by the police, whom he wouldn't allow in his house.  I get that Chuck is supposed to be a brilliant lawyer but HHM would get rid of him once word got out about his behavior.  Companies would not want to get involved with someone who acts like Chuck, who is as mentally unstable as Chuck is.  His behavior would cost the firm a lot of clients and a lot of money.

As nodorothyparker explained, HHM is in a difficult position with Chuck.  To get rid of him, they would have to buy him out, which according to Jimmy would cost around $17 million.  In the premiere episode Jimmy was trying to get HHM to buy out Chuck, while Hamlin insisted that Chuck was merely "on a sabbatical" and wanted to keep it that way to avoid having to come up with the cash to buy out Chuck.  

[Broderbits]

11 minutes ago, benteen said:

Don't forget as well the time he was brought to the hospital by the police, whom he wouldn't allow in his house.  I get that Chuck is supposed to be a brilliant lawyer but HHM would get rid of him once word got out about his behavior.  Companies would not want to get involved with someone who acts like Chuck, who is as mentally unstable as Chuck is.  His behavior would cost the firm a lot of clients and a lot of money.

And this makes me wonder what the police would think about getting involved in a brother vs. brother situation that is more domestic dispute than anything else. Would a DA want to take this to court? Maybe the case is heard in civil court and Chuck concedes that he will drop the charges if Jimmy drops the McGill name.

If only Chuck wasn't such a vindictive asshole and recognized Jimmy's people skills, they could do great things together. 

[Bannon]

21 minutes ago, benteen said:

Don't forget as well the time he was brought to the hospital by the police, whom he wouldn't allow in his house.  I get that Chuck is supposed to be a brilliant lawyer but HHM would get rid of him once word got out about his behavior.  Companies would not want to get involved with someone who acts like Chuck, who is as mentally unstable as Chuck is.  His behavior would cost the firm a lot of clients and a lot of money.

Which is why prosecuting Jimmy is eventually going to be an untenable situation for Howard. If Jimmy won't accept a plea deal, the subequent trial will hugely harm HHM. Thus, as others noted, Howard can't afford the 17 million to buy out Chuck's part ownership of the firm, without gutting the firm (a common situation with partnerships), and Howard can't afford to cooperate with a prosecution of Jimmy that results in a trial. Howard must betray Chuck.

[Bannon]

On top of partnership issues already mentioned, the firm likely has a very large life insurance policy on Chuck, and who knows how Chuck has written his will.  I don't see Howard as even being close to the murderous type, nor Jimmy, before he fully becomes Saul, but there are a lot of balls in motion.

[Bryce Lynch]

1 minute ago, Bannon said:

On top of partnership issues already mentioned, the firm likely has a very large life insurance policy on Chuck, and who knows how Chuck has written his will.  I don't see Howard as even being close to the murderous type, nor Jimmy, before he fully becomes Saul, but there are a lot of balls in motion.

I was thinking the same thing.  What happens if Chuck should suddenly die "accidentally" or of "natural causes".  Who inherits his assets including his equity in the firm?  Jimmy?  Rebecca?  The Electromagnetic Hypersensitivity Foundation?  HHM?

If Hamlin could get out of a jam through Chuck's death I wouldn't totally put it past him to try to arrange it, though I don't think he is the murderous type.

I wouldn't be surprised to see Hamlin and Jimmy conspire together to make the charges go away or reach a settlement to avoid the firm being harmed by Chuck's mental health issues becoming public record.   It could be in their mutual interest.

Hamlin really seemed pretty much done with Chuck after scaling the wall and talking to him about the PIs.  It seemed like his frustration finally showed through.

[Bannon]

Kim's the best, albeit flawed, major character in this show. I hope she gets out mostly unscathed, before getting too enmeshed in the dirty dealings, or getting largely innocently destroyed in the crossfire.

[Bannon]

1 minute ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I was thinking the same thing.  What happens if Chuck should suddenly die "accidentally" or of "natural causes".  Who inherits his assets including his equity in the firm?  Jimmy?  Rebecca?  The Electromagnetic Hypersensitivity Foundation?  HHM?

If Hamlin could get out of a jam through Chuck's death I wouldn't totally put it past him to try to arrange it, though I don't think he is the murderous type.

I wouldn't be surprised to see Hamlin and Jimmy conspire together to make the charges go away or reach a settlement to avoid the firm being harmed by Chuck's mental health issues becoming public record.   It could be in their mutual interest.

Hamlin really seemed pretty much done with Chuck after scaling the wall and talking to him about the PIs.  It seemed like his frustration finally showed through.

If written credibly, and Gilligan is more willing than most producers to take the time to write a scenario credibly, having Howard Break Really Bad could be quite good. It could also entail Kim finally saying life with Jimmy had too high a price, with her going back to the Midwest to practice law, with devastating effect on Saul.

[ShadowFacts]

13 minutes ago, Bannon said:

Which is why prosecuting Jimmy is eventually going to be an untenable situation for Howard. If Jimmy won't accept a plea deal, the subequent trial will hugely harm HHM. Thus, as others noted, Howard can't afford the 17 million to buy out Chuck's part ownership of the firm, without gutting the firm (a common situation with partnerships), and Howard can't afford to cooperate with a prosecution of Jimmy that results in a trial. Howard must betray Chuck.

I wonder if HHM would actually be gutted, or if they bought out Chuck's share they could survive as a much smaller entity or merge with another firm?  If that is possible would it be a wiser course than having the business slowly decline as more and more people get wise to the fact that Chuck is beyond unstable?  When Sandpiper started, it was already known that he was acting erratically, and now the bungled bank regulatory hearing was done in a public governmental setting.  He didn't just appear to have transposed numbers, he was arguing with his client in public.  Maybe Howard should bite the bullet. 

[Bryce Lynch]

Just now, ShadowFacts said:

I wonder if HHM would actually be gutted, or if they bought out Chuck's share they could survive as a much smaller entity or merge with another firm?  If that is possible would it be a wiser course than having the business slowly decline as more and more people get wise to the fact that Chuck is beyond unstable?  When Sandpiper started, it was already known that he was acting erratically, and now the bungled bank regulatory hearing was done in a public governmental setting.  He didn't just appear to have transposed numbers, he was arguing with his client in public.  Maybe Howard should bite the bullet. 

I was wondering how these things work in real life.  I would think it would be a shaky business structure to have a partnership where if one partner left, died, was forced out, or whatever, his/her equity would be more or less immediately due in cash.  I would think there would be provisions like some sort of a payout schedule over several years, to make firms more stable.  I would also imagine HHM would seek another partner or partners to buy in to the firm, by purchasing Chuck's share.  

[Bannon]

Just now, ShadowFacts said:

I wonder if HHM would actually be gutted, or if they bought out Chuck's share they could survive as a much smaller entity or merge with another firm?  If that is possible would it be a wiser course than having the business slowly decline as more and more people get wise to the fact that Chuck is beyond unstable?  When Sandpiper started, it was already known that he was acting erratically, and now the bungled bank regulatory hearing was done in a public governmental setting.  He didn't just appear to have transposed numbers, he was arguing with his client in public.  Maybe Howard should bite the bullet. 

Oh, no doubt he should, but when your name is on the building, it can be really, really, hard to swallow the bitter medicine. He either shrinks the firm, merges, or loads the business with debt (which cripples its competitiveness) to get rid of Chuck.  That's really painful.

[SignGuy77]

11 minutes ago, Bannon said:

Kim's the best, albeit flawed, major character in this show. I hope she gets out mostly unscathed, before getting too enmeshed in the dirty dealings, or getting largely innocently destroyed in the crossfire.

I think Kim's already quite enmeshed. Her whole solo career is based on a scam Jimmy pulled, and now she's trying to stay ahead of (or on the right side of) the truth coming out. We saw her on the couch in their office, going over what their next move should be, checking in with Jimmy for his input.

I too hope she gets out unscathed, but the other part of me is ready for some serious tragedy.

[Bannon]

1 minute ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I was wondering how these things work in real life.  I would think it would be a shaky business structure to have a partnership where if one partner left, died, was forced out, or whatever, his/her equity would be more or less immediately due in cash.  I would think there would be provisions like some sort of a payout schedule over several years, to make firms more stable.  I would also imagine HHM would seek another partner or partners to buy in to the firm, by purchasing Chuck's share.  

Businesses get destroyed all the time over partnership issues which can't be sorted out, and attorneys are no less prone to destructive irrationality than anybody else. Chuck, in particular, I'd wager, was often impossible to deal with before he went fully mylar covered walls and blazer linings. He's legitimately brilliant, and the legitimately brilliant quite frequently get away with all manner of extreme nonsense.

[ShadowFacts]

4 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I was wondering how these things work in real life.  I would think it would be a shaky business structure to have a partnership where if one partner left, died, was forced out, or whatever, his/her equity would be more or less immediately due in cash.  I would think there would be provisions like some sort of a payout schedule over several years, to make firms more stable.  I would also imagine HHM would seek another partner or partners to buy in to the firm, by purchasing Chuck's share.  

That was my husband's experience in a non-law firm setting, and he was paid out quarterly over two years.  Not 17 million, either.  The partnership survived nicely.  My husband was happy to no longer be in it.  Win-win.

[Bannon]

1 minute ago, SignGuy77 said:

I think Kim's already quite enmeshed. Her whole solo career is based on a scam Jimmy pulled, and now she's trying to stay ahead of (or on the right side of) the truth coming out. We saw her on the couch in their office, going over what their next move should be, checking in with Jimmy for his input.

I too hope she gets out unscathed, but the other part of me is ready for some serious tragedy.

Oh, I suspect that is the path the writers have chosen, and I can't turn away. This entire show is about loss and grief. It's horrible and beautiful.

1 minute ago, ShadowFacts said:

That was my husband's experience in a non-law firm setting, and he was paid out quarterly over two years.  Not 17 million, either.  The partnership survived nicely.  My husband was happy to no longer be in it.  Win-win.

Every situation is different, depending on the finances (the larger the buyout, the larger the potential issues), and the personalities involved. I knew two brothers in a very, very, prosperous partnership who destroyed each other financially in dissolving it (they had Chuck and Jimmy's mommy issues, believe it or not) and never spoke to each other again, each dying decades later. Incredibly sad. 

[nodorothyparker]

Remember that the thing that set this latest mess in motion was Howard calling Jimmy in a panic because Chuck in the wake of the Mesa Verde court fiasco was making noises about wanting "to retire" with the implication that he was wanting to be bought out of HHM.  Jimmy went over to Chuck's house to talk him out of it at least partially as a favor to Howard and then was manipulated into confessing on tape.  When Chuck played the tape for Howard, Howard expressed relief that Chuck's talk of retiring was a con and asked him not to panic him like that again.  

If this escalates to trial, there's the very real likelihood of Jimmy's shenanigans with the Mesa Verde files becoming public.  Do we really want to place bets on the bank not dropping Kim like a hot rock when it comes out that the man she shares office space and her life with did that?  I'm fully expecting Kim to be tanked in the fallout.

[Bannon]

5 minutes ago, nodorothyparker said:

Remember that the thing that set this latest mess in motion was Howard calling Jimmy in a panic because Chuck in the wake of the Mesa Verde court fiasco was making noises about wanting "to retire" with the implication that he was wanting to be bought out of HHM.  Jimmy went over to Chuck's house to talk him out of it at least partially as a favor to Howard and then was manipulated into confessing on tape.  When Chuck played the tape for Howard, Howard expressed relief that Chuck's talk of retiring was a con and asked him not to panic him like that again.  

If this escalates to trial, there's the very real likelihood of Jimmy's shenanigans with the Mesa Verde files becoming public.  Do we really want to place bets on the bank not dropping Kim like a hot rock when it comes out that the man she shares office space and her life with did that?  I'm fully expecting Kim to be tanked in the fallout.

Oh, certainly, a trial for Jimmy could ruin Kim as well. This is a well written catastrophe, for all parties, but Chuck is the one who I most strongly suspect won't physically survive it.

Edited April 18, 2017 by Bannon
Clarity

[Bryce Lynch]

12 minutes ago, Bannon said:

Oh, certainly, a trial for Jimmy could ruin Kim as well. This is a well written catastrophe, for all parties, but Chuck is the one who I most strongly suspect won't physically survive it.

Going through those metal detectors on the way into court every day might be the end of Chuck.  It seems like it is in the interest of all parties to settle this dispute outside of the legal system.  I have thought for quite some time that Jimmy will agree to stop practicing under the McGill name.  The is what Chuck wanted from the start.  I wonder if he will still be able to get Howard to pick up the cost of Saul Goodman and Associates businesses cards and matchbooks, and perhaps even a giant inflatable Statue of Liberty.  

I don't think Chuck will die, but we will see.  I would love to see a flash forward with Chuck reacting to something going on with Saul during his Breaking Bad days.  Maybe, Chuck sees a news story about the presumed murders of Hank and Gomie and finds out that Jimmy is a fugitive, wanted for his part in a major drug ring.  

Edited April 18, 2017 by Bryce Lynch

[RealReality]

15 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I like Mike's plot better, though both are good.  The cat and mouse game between Gus and Mike is great, since both are so shrewd.  I always thought that if not for Jesse messing things up, Gus, Mike and Walt could have taken over the world together.

I like Mike's story because, to me, it makes sense.  If, earlier, you had the gas cap and the phone in the middle of the road it wouldn't make as much sense.

But now I wonder where and how it all went left.  When did Gus know, how did he know, who saw him.  Mike has seemingly been meticulous at every turn, so what went wrong?

[Bannon]

26 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Going through those metal detectors on the way into court every day might be the end of Chuck?  It seems like it is in the interest of all parties to settle this dispute outside of the legal system.  I have thought for quite some time that Jimmy will agree to stop practicing under the McGill name.  The is what Chuck wanted from the start.  I wonder if he will still be able to get Howard to pick up the cost of Saul Goodman and Associates businesses cards and matchbooks, and perhaps even a giant inflatable Statue of Liberty.  

Sure it would be in their interest to do so. That's true for a large percentage of disputes that are litigated. People just aren't reliably rational. I've had attorneys making $500 an hour smirk at me from across a table, where I've been a third party lending some specialized expertise,  because the attorney knew the underlying dispute was pretty much trivial, but the parties to the dispute couldn't accept the triviality of the dispute, because the personality conflicts dominated the thinking. Happens in expensive divorces, both marriages and business partnerships, all the time.

It could go the way you envision, but I think the bugging of Jimmy, and Jimmy's explosive response, which no doubt lends extremely flammable accelerant to Chuck's inner rage, has greatly reduced the chance of a rational resolution to this conflict.

Edited April 18, 2017 by Bannon
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