S01.E03: Episode 3

[OtterMommy]

Quote

Lucy is hired to spend a few days with Lord and Lady Repton, but they have peculiar tastes, while Margaret fears she may be reaping the reward of her public attack on Lydia Quigley.

[dleighg]

So in the last episode, Lydia procured a virgin for the justice-- and here they discussed again. Was the justice not the client? So were the card references meant to imply he was procuring for the King? (and which George would that have been?)

[legxleg]

Yes, that was my read on it too. Right now I'm guessing that the king is a red herring and the justice is lying to Mrs Quigley, and implying it is someone she'd be willing to take a risk for, when it's actually someone less important.  I think when Charlotte was talking to her keeper/long-term client (what is the right word for what he is?), they *might* have been talking about the Stamp Act leading up to the Revolutionary War (by this I mean, taxing the natives of the colonies to get back what was spent fighting them might be a reference to raising taxes to pay for the French and Indian War. If someone else has a better idea of what they're talking about, I'd love to hear about it!) If they *were* talking about the Stamp Act, then the king would be King George III (ie, the mad one)

 

I feel incredibly bad for Harriet Lennox. I really don't think much of Mr Lennox at all. Even if we're meant to assume that he was a pretty good man (aside from all that slavery? ugh) and genuinely loved her, not signing her papers and not making any provision for their children is just a disgusting level of thoughtlessness. I'm inclined to think the worst of him because he hasn't seemed particularly concerned with Harriet's feelings and future in the short time we've seen him, plus the whole slave-owner-sleeping-with-a-slave dynamic is inherently a terrible one. I hope Harriet finds a good way forward for her and her children. 

Edited April 12, 2017 by legxleg
typo

[OtterMommy]

58 minutes ago, legxleg said:

I feel incredibly bad for Harriet Lennox. I really don't think much of Mr Lennox at all. Even if we're meant to assume that he was a pretty good man (aside from all that slavery? ugh) and genuinely loved her, not signing her papers and not making any provision for their children is just a disgusting level of thoughtlessness. I'm inclined to think the worst of him because he hasn't seemed particularly concerned with Harriet's feelings and future in the short time we've seen him, plus the whole slave-owner-sleeping-with-a-slave dynamic is inherently a terrible one. I hope Harriet finds a good way forward for her and her children. 

I found this part incredibly heartbreaking.  Of course, we knew Mr Lennox was no prince, but still. I did have to hand it to Margaret for seeing things as they were and trying (albeit unsuccessfully) to help Harriet help herself.  I also breathed a sigh of relief when the job she offered Harriet was NOT one of the girls.

On another note...I'm really bothered by the fact that Lydia Quigley's son reminds me of James Cordon.  There I said it.  (I'm also a bit amazed that Charlotte Wells = Lady Sybil Crawley.  The fact that she can pull of such disparate roles says much about the strength of her acting).

[tennisgurl]

The whole time Lucy was in the woods with that creepy rich couple, all I could think was "holy shit, Lucy's been rented out by serial killers". While they didn't turn out to be serial killers, that was still a messed up dynamic. I guess becoming a successful prostitute is a learning process, but it doesn't seem like Lucy likes this new job very much. Not that I blame her or anything, but she doesn't have the same sassiness and toughness the other girls seem to have. I guess Margaret sheltered her more than Charlotte?

Poor Harriot. Mr. Lennox's son is the real bastard in this family. I hope she gets her kids back soon and never has to resort to doing...other things in Margaret house to get them back.

I liked how when Margaret was all upset about the house smelling awful after finding Mary Coopers body and engaging in a war with Lydia Quigley, and her partner/boyfriend (husband?) just being like "yeah, this is so totally your fault. But now we need to keep going".

[legxleg]

1 hour ago, tennisgurl said:

The whole time Lucy was in the woods with that creepy rich couple, all I could think was "holy shit, Lucy's been rented out by serial killers". While they didn't turn out to be serial killers, that was still a messed up dynamic. I guess becoming a successful prostitute is a learning process, but it doesn't seem like Lucy likes this new job very much. Not that I blame her or anything, but she doesn't have the same sassiness and toughness the other girls seem to have. I guess Margaret sheltered her more than Charlotte?

I did wonder why Charlotte and Margaret didn't warn Lucy about what kind of people they were. Lucy impressing these creeps was really integral to Margaret's plan to launch her career, so you'd think that Charlotte would give her a quick tutorial about what the couple liked. At the very least a quick 'hey, they might play some pretty effed up games, try and roll with it. Also, an attempt at sassy banter is a no-go with this guy, stay deferential' would have probably been appreciated. As it was, Lucy was shocked that she was even leaving the city, so she was wrong-footed from the start. I kind of wonder if the family sheltering Lucy as the baby is doing her a real disservice in this line of work.

I also wonder if there's any precedent in this era for setting ground rules, like 'if you engage a girl from my house, you aren't allowed to hunt her for sport. Or even pretend to hunt her for sport.' I would think that the promise of a certain amount of protection would be a big incentive in luring away top girls from other establishments. If Margaret promises you won't be mistreated if you work for her, and Lydia may throw you to a sadistic nobleman if you look at her funny, I know which house I'd be interested in joining.

[rho]

1 hour ago, legxleg said:

I did wonder why Charlotte and Margaret didn't warn Lucy about what kind of people they were. Lucy impressing these creeps was really integral to Margaret's plan to launch her career, so you'd think that Charlotte would give her a quick tutorial about what the couple liked. At the very least a quick 'hey, they might play some pretty effed up games, try and roll with it. Also, an attempt at sassy banter is a no-go with this guy, stay deferential' would have probably been appreciated. As it was, Lucy was shocked that she was even leaving the city, so she was wrong-footed from the start. I kind of wonder if the family sheltering Lucy as the baby is doing her a real disservice in this line of work.

I wonder if Margaret actually knows what goes on at the Repton house. He's only looking for virgins and aside from her daughters, she doesn't strike me as the type to be selling virgins to anyone. That's Lydia's department. And if I understand correctly, he took Charlotte's virginity too? I wonder if she was as headstrong and confident back then or if her current disposition is a product of her experience with the Reptons. If that's the case, I will give her the benefit of the doubt that she might have repressed the memory and said nothing to her mother. All speculation of course, but I'd really like to know what 12 year old Charlotte was like. 

[OtterMommy]

16 minutes ago, rho said:

I wonder if Margaret actually knows what goes on at the Repton house. He's only looking for virgins and aside from her daughters, she doesn't strike me as the type to be selling virgins to anyone. That's Lydia's department. And if I understand correctly, he took Charlotte's virginity too? I wonder if she was as headstrong and confident back then or if her current disposition is a product of her experience with the Reptons. If that's the case, I will give her the benefit of the doubt that she might have repressed the memory and said nothing to her mother. All speculation of course, but I'd really like to know what 12 year old Charlotte was like. 

Also, Charlotte's, ahem, experience with them may have been quite different.  Wasn't she significantly younger than Lucy is when she went into the business?  It also seemed like no one knew that they were taking Lucy to the country, so that have been another factor.  In any case, that couple was supremely squicky.

By the way, who is the actor playing Lord (?) Repton?  I swear I've seen him before, but I can't place his face.  Unfortunately, the IMDB entry for this show is incomplete and he's one of the characters not listed.

[JennyExiled]

4 hours ago, legxleg said:

...and Lydia may throw you to a sadistic nobleman if you look at her funny...

So what do we think is wrong with Mr. Osborne? I was terribly disappointed that we didn't learn more about him! Very curious to see how Emily handles him. I wouldn't be a bit surprised to find out she's fine with whatever it is about him that bothers the other girls. 

[legxleg]

4 hours ago, JennyExiled said:

So what do we think is wrong with Mr. Osborne? I was terribly disappointed that we didn't learn more about him! Very curious to see how Emily handles him. I wouldn't be a bit surprised to find out she's fine with whatever it is about him that bothers the other girls. 

Oh, that's interesting! I had assumed he was just some sadistic creep who beat up the girls. I have no desire to see that, so I was glad they cut away.  But if it was something weird rather than something abusive, and Emily can take it in stride, that would be an interesting wrench to throw in the dynamic between Lydia and Emily.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I was so anxious about what would happen to Lucy during the entire episode. Lord and Lady Repton have been creepy since we first saw them. At least we didn't have to witness it, unlike when Lucrezia married Giovanni Sforza on The Borgias. Even if Margaret doesn't know how the Reptons treat the girls, you'd think that Charlotte would have given Lucy a little bit of warning. Even if Charlotte's experience was not exactly the same, it's clear that Lord Repton is super creepy so even just telling Charlotte that would have been helpful. Then again, we often make the mistake of assuming that other people are like us so it's possible that Charlotte, who seems good at reading people, sizing up situations, and being sociable, just assumed that Lucy had the same skills and common sense.

I do think that Charlotte was a bit hasty in her decision not to ally with Caroline. Since Charlotte is dependent upon George for money, she should be at least a little concerned that he's running through his wife's fortune so quickly. If he's broke, he's not going to be able to pay her debts.

Emily is lucky to have an ally at Mrs. Quigley's house who is kind enough to warn her not to be such an idiot because she clearly wasn't smart enough to figure it out on her own. I mean, he's obviously not doing this all out of the kindness of his heart, but he is at least trying to help her not suffer more than necessary.

I was really disappointed (but not surprised) that Margaret's ex never signed Harriet's freedom papers. His fear and selfishness is what caused their children to be taken from her. Not at all surprised that his son Benjamin used the situation to punish Harriet. I thought it was kind of Margaret to offer Harriet a job as a maid, especially right now when they are in a precarious financial position with the new house.

My recording cut off the very end of the episode. Did anything important happen after Charlotte went to play the piano for a client?

[OtterMommy]

5 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

My recording cut off the very end of the episode. Did anything important happen after Charlotte went to play the piano for a client?

The client left, telling Margaret that he did think Lucy (I think that is who you were talking about) liked him.  Margaret went up to Lucy and instead of yelling at her, was rather compassionate and must know that some pretty dark shit went down at the Reptons.  Lucy also made a comment that there was a stink in the room (Mary Cooper....) Cut to the Quigley's were Osborne showed up and his usual girl was nowhere to be found, so Lydia sent him in to Emily.  All we saw was the back of him going into her room, so we don't know what is so awful about him (yet).

I *think* that's how it went down...I've only watched the ep once and I may be remembering things in the wrong order.

[dleighg]

1 hour ago, OtterMommy said:

Cut to the Quigley's were Osborne showed up and his usual girl was nowhere to be found, so Lydia sent him in to Emily.

I think more accurately it was one of the girls' "turn" with Mr. Osborne and she'd made herself scarce.

[Silly Angel]

In the This Season On clips there's a second of 

Spoiler

Emily running through the street, looking distraught with blood on her face. That may be how episode 4 opens.

[Trooper York]

Lennox is the Thomas Jefferson figure in all of this.

It was indeed the Stamp Act they were referring too and no doubt that King George is the client who desires the virgins.

[dleighg]

I have read differing accounts about slavery in England around that time;  it appears that a court ruled in 1706 that a slave that comes to England becomes free. However this seems to have been "lightly enforced." I just wonder about Harriet's situation.

[OtterMommy]

1 minute ago, dleighg said:

I have read differing accounts about slavery in England around that time;  it appears that a court ruled in 1706 that a slave that comes to England becomes free. However this seems to have been "lightly enforced." I just wonder about Harriet's situation.

 I *think* that it means that if Harriet had left Lennox while in England, he would have no recourse to go after her.  However, if he (or his son) brought her back to the colonies, she would be a slave since her papers had never been signed.  If the case is as simple as that, I'm not sure how Lennox Jr. was able to keep her kids, except by virtue of the fact that he was a rich, white man and she was a penniless, black woman.

[stanleyk]

On 4/12/2017 at 6:25 PM, tennisgurl said:

The whole time Lucy was in the woods with that creepy rich couple, all I could think was "holy shit, Lucy's been rented out by serial killers". While they didn't turn out to be serial killers, that was still a messed up dynamic. I guess becoming a successful prostitute is a learning process, but it doesn't seem like Lucy likes this new job very much. Not that I blame her or anything, but she doesn't have the same sassiness and toughness the other girls seem to have. I guess Margaret sheltered her more than Charlotte?

Lucy is the least interesting character to me; she seems a complete cipher, and it's hard to believe she could be so naive and incompetent having grown up in a brothel. I didn't grow up in a brothel, but I still know joking about a man's penis is rarely the way to go. Especially when that man thought it was hilarious to pretend to hunt her for sport earlier in the day! Her character seems unsettled: one minute bold and independent, the next meek and terrified. It's possible, of course, that this inconsistency is intentional, but I find her irritating. And more importantly, just uninteresting.

On 4/12/2017 at 1:44 PM, OtterMommy said:

I found this part incredibly heartbreaking.  Of course, we knew Mr Lennox was no prince, but still. I did have to hand it to Margaret for seeing things as they were and trying (albeit unsuccessfully) to help Harriet help herself.  I also breathed a sigh of relief when the job she offered Harriet was NOT one of the girls.

I really could barely watch the scene when Harriet was separated from her children. I know it happened all the time to slaves, but seeing it made me sick to my stomach. Lennox was a real shit for leaving not just Harriet, but his own children enslaved. I mean, in addition to all the other terrible stuff he did in the first place. I cannot wait to see Margaret and Harriet deliver some comeuppances in the direction of the Lennox household. 

21 hours ago, OtterMommy said:

By the way, who is the actor playing Lord (?) Repton?  I swear I've seen him before, but I can't place his face.  Unfortunately, the IMDB entry for this show is incomplete and he's one of the characters not listed.

I'm pretty sure that's Lord Crawley himself, Hugh Bonneville, isn't it?

14 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

I do think that Charlotte was a bit hasty in her decision not to ally with Caroline. Since Charlotte is dependent upon George for money, she should be at least a little concerned that he's running through his wife's fortune so quickly. If he's broke, he's not going to be able to pay her debts.

I thought so too. Charlotte seems to think she has all the power in the situation, so that she can freely make enemies of Caroline and Hawley (that's the servant's name, right?). It would seem to be a much smarter play in the long-run to make them allies, as George is an utter moron and will likely run through the money they're all dependent on. On the other hand, Charlotte probably thinks she'll just get a new one when this one's run out of money.

[OtterMommy]

16 minutes ago, stanleyk said:

I'm pretty sure that's Lord Crawley himself, Hugh Bonneville, isn't it?

It looks like it could be him but, as I said, his character isn't listed in the IMDB page for the show and the role doesn't show up on Hugh Bonneville.  I also pulled up the Wikipedia page, where the character was not mentioned, and a screener article that listed the actors for all the characters in the last episode EXCEPT Lord Repton.  So, that's weird..

[tennisgurl]

44 minutes ago, stanleyk said:

it's hard to believe she could be so naive and incompetent having grown up in a brothel.

Yeah, Lucy's character is rather confusing to me. She acts so naïve and meek, like she doesn't know anything about actually being a prostitute, which doesn't really make sense for a woman who has been raised in a brothel and has known she was going to be a prostitute for probably most of her life. Its not a nice prospect, but Margaret, pragmatic lady that she is, would have probably given her some form of advice or training before she started her work. If Margaret was planning on renting Lucy out eventually, and it seems like this is the only career path she sees for her, I would think she would better prepare her.

[kieyra]

1 hour ago, OtterMommy said:

It looks like it could be him but, as I said, his character isn't listed in the IMDB page for the show and the role doesn't show up on Hugh Bonneville.  I also pulled up the Wikipedia page, where the character was not mentioned, and a screener article that listed the actors for all the characters in the last episode EXCEPT Lord Repton.  So, that's weird..

Through some circuitous googling I think I've figured out that it's an actor named Tim McInnerny who was on Black Adder and other things:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_McInnerny

That said, the Wikipedia page doesn't list Harlots among his roles. But I think you can see it in the face, and if you Google his name along with Harlots you'll find the references.

(It's definitely not Hugh Bonneville--he'd be getting shout-outs in all the articles about Lady Sybil.)

Edit: Oh jeez, he's been in a little bit of everything, including Outlander, Sherlock and Game of Thrones. So yeah, we've all seen him somewhere, I bet.

Edited April 14, 2017 by kieyra

[OtterMommy]

8 minutes ago, kieyra said:

Through some circuitous googling I think I've figured out that it's an actor named Tim McInnerny who was on Black Adder and other things:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_McInnerny

Yes!  That's definitely him.  It is interesting to note that this show doesn't show up on his IMDB profile--although, looking through what is listed, he's definitely one of those actors who shows up in a lot of things in secondary or tertiary roles.

ETA: While the show is not listed in his profile, there are pictures of him as Lord Repton....so yep...you win the prize for finding him!

[kieyra]

That mystery having been solved ...

Just watched the episode. I had some of the same thoughts expressed here--why didn't Charlotte throw in with Lady Caroline? I guess it's supposed to be part of her devil-may-care attitude? And how was Lucy so ill-prepared? If everyone else in the house knew he had a "wonky" penis, why didn't they warn her he was a beast with a bad temper?

Who is the guy Charlotte is always semi-flirting with? The one she paid for "his company" in the first episode? I can't quite figure out where he fits, since he's been out on the streets with the ladies of the night, stripping last week at the wake (right? that was him on the table?) but now also chilling in the same drinking establishment as Lord George? They're obviously setting him up for a slow burn with Charlotte ... or a slow something ... but I don't even know his name.

I appreciate that the show addresses the aftermath of rape (to the the extent it can, contextually) without forcing us to watch the mechanics of it repeatedly. The actual sex is mostly used for comic relief. (And Quigley Jr and Emily are pretty funny.)

I feel like there are a lot of plates in the air and I'd like to see things settle into a rhythm before the next disaster--would like to see the new Greek Street house (and more of the actual set! I feel starved for scenery) up and running now that they actually got themselves inside it.

Last week I thought Bible Daughter might have a thing for Violet, but this week Lady Quigley is looking to turn her out. The show keeps zigging when I expect it to zag. Not necessarily in a good way. That's why I hope they at least get established in Greek Street and we see a little bit of what "normal" looks like there before everything burns to the ground.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

15 hours ago, OtterMommy said:

The client left, telling Margaret that he did think Lucy (I think that is who you were talking about) liked him.  Margaret went up to Lucy and instead of yelling at her, was rather compassionate and must know that some pretty dark shit went down at the Reptons.  Lucy also made a comment that there was a stink in the room (Mary Cooper....) Cut to the Quigley's were Osborne showed up and his usual girl was nowhere to be found, so Lydia sent him in to Emily.  All we saw was the back of him going into her room, so we don't know what is so awful about him (yet).

I *think* that's how it went down...I've only watched the ep once and I may be remembering things in the wrong order.

Yes, I did mean Lucy! Thanks for the summary. I did see Lydia telling her son to send Osborne to see Emily and the look of guilt on the son's face when he told Emily, so it looks like all I missed was Lucy's client leaving and what happened after that. Thanks for the summary!

I think Emily's relationship with Quigley's son may be one of the most honest ones on the show (although I do love Margaret's relationship with William - is that his name?). She made it no secret that she just wanted some food, so watching her eat an apple while having sex with him was hilarious. She didn't even bother to pretend she was enjoying the sex or that she had interest in anything besides that apple.

[dleighg]

The guy that Charlotte is flirting with-- I'm not sure his job either; at one point he was a "carrier" of the little box thing (had "moved to the front"); I don't know if those are part of a household, or just hired like taxis. As for striping in the club, I figure he was just a neighborhood guy out for a good time.

[nodorothyparker]

I like Margaret and Will.  He's completely realistic that she's completely pigheaded and has brought a lot of their current strife on herself by continuing this war with Mrs. Quigley, but he still has her back.  There's something very real about their relationship.  Speaking of Quigley, I realize this is all a personal thing between her and Margaret, but she seems prosperous enough to have to be a fairly good businesswoman.  At what point does she look at how many people she's paying to continue to harass Margaret in one form or another and decide there are better uses for her money?  Even in the 1760s London is a pretty big place with lots of potential customers and it's hard to think Margaret could cut deeply enough into her high-end business to make it worth the effort she's putting into this.

Lucy is reading unrealistically unprepared for someone raised in a brothel to me too.   No, she had no way of knowing the Reptons were going to drag her out of London and isolate her away from any possible help, and from Margaret's reaction she obviously didn't expect it either.  She's also not as naturally outgoing as Charlotte.   But since we know they bought Charlotte too once upon a time, it's implausible that no one would have given Lucy any heads up at all that they were freaks even if they didn't know about this particular flavor of it.

Not surprised at all to learn that Harriet Lennox was not a legal wife as I wondered about that last week.  Unfortunately, there are lots and lots of recorded cases where these men kept slave women and had children with them but never made any provisions for them, which left them at the mercy of white wives or children when they died as we saw here.  Since there were no freedom papers for the kids, Benjamin as Lennox's odious heir legally owns them and can do as he likes with them.  That scene really was hard to watch as he was obviously looking to hurt Harriet to get back at her and probably his father too for living so openly together.  It's nice, I guess, that Margaret offered Harriet a position in the kitchen after she was quick to turn up her nose at having to earn the money she needs the same way Margaret has had to despite coming to her twice for help, but the unspoken thing there is that even if Margaret could afford to pay her well and wasn't in the middle of setting up a new house a kitchen maid will never earn enough in any reasonable amount of time to buy several slaves before they're bundled back to a plantation in the colonies.  In the meantime, it's within Benjamin's legal rights to sell any or all of the children off to parts unknown where Harriet might never be able to locate them.  There was some great commentary in this episode with this and the scene between Charlotte and the wife about women's options being dictated by money and the men who control it.

It'll be interesting to see how charitable the religious wackadoo is toward Quigley once she realizes she's now looking to turn her daughter out.  Haxby at this point has to be thinking he has the worst butler position ever.

[Elivesta29]

I agree, nodorothyparker that Lucy seemed strangely unprepared for sex work despite growing up in a brothel. I can appreciate fear and uncertainty, but I would have thought Lucy would have been made to practice conversation techniques. Lucy wasn't like the other girls who had no recourse and chose prostitution after leaving home. She was raised to be a courtesan. I did really feel for Lucy when the Repton's were encouraging her to be witty, and then she went too far due to inexperience. I imagine being a sex worker/escort type during this era is in many respects similar to the role of court jester - they were supposed to tease their masters, it was part of their job. Obviously there's a fine line though, and it can be difficult to know where it is. Though insulting their "manhood" would be a pretty obvious no go area. 

[HeySandyStrange]

22 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

Lucy is reading unrealistically unprepared for someone raised in a brothel to me too.   No, she had no way of knowing the Reptons were going to drag her out of London and isolate her away from any possible help, and from Margaret's reaction she obviously didn't expect it either.  She's also not as naturally outgoing as Charlotte.

I also found it odd that Lucy seemed so unprepared for the life of a harlot, considering she grew up a brothel. But I also think it doesn't help that a) she has obviously been spoiled and coddled by her mother and maybe her sister and b) she is not only not outgoing, but she seems to be borderline socially awkward and can't read a room very well. I think, because of Lucy's more refined prettiness, quietness, and possible intelligence, Margaret hoped she would become a very high class mistress, the kind that was attached to some very high member of society and hosted Salons and such. Some of those mistress were very well taken care of and even respected among that set. But they also had to be cunning, charming, and good conversationalists, and poor Lucy ain't that. Margaret really didn't do her any favors by making Lucy think she was somehow above it all.

Quote

I thought so too. Charlotte seems to think she has all the power in the situation, so that she can freely make enemies of Caroline and Hawley (that's the servant's name, right?). It would seem to be a much smarter play in the long-run to make them allies, as George is an utter moron and will likely run through the money they're all dependent on. On the other hand, Charlotte probably thinks she'll just get a new one when this one's run out of money.

I very much appreciated the fact that the wife wasn't some jealous, vindictive harpy but a smart, reasonable woman and think that Charlotte is going to get some karma back at her for the rude, dismissive way she treated both Caroline and Hawley. Honestly, I won't feel that sorry for her. It is interesting that Charlotte is great at the sexy, intriguing side of  being a kept woman doesn't seem to grasp (of care about) the practical side of the business. I assume it is because she is still young and beautiful enough to move on, and perhaps her devil may care attitude also comes from the fact she seems to struggle with her own conflicting feelings about the business she is in and the likely bad experiences she has had. I'm guessing if she isn't careful, though, her reputation among the upper classes could be ruined if she upsets the wrong people, thus limiting her access to another big spender when Lord Moron runs through his fortune.

I know there is speculation about whether Hawley is being a vindictive sneak because he has feeling either for his idiotic employer or Charlotte, but I'm wondering if it is due to some sort of (romantic or platonic) loyalty to Caroline. I just can't see any self-respecting person actually being desperately in love with the manchild. Or Hawley just hates them all and wants them to destroy one another lol.

[wonderchica05]

I find myself looking forward to Emily and Mr. Quigly's scenes together. What's wrong with me?? I like their relationship/beginning of an alliance though. I was LOLing when she was eating the apple.

Edited April 16, 2017 by wonderchica05

[nodorothyparker]

I think it's interesting that he obviously likes her beyond just getting laid.  As the owner's son, it seems highly probable that he could be serviced by any of the girls any time he's so inclined but he keeps coming back to her and smoothing things over for her as he can.  You have to wonder where something like that might lead and if Emily's considering it at all.

[Kirsty]

19 hours ago, HeySandyStrange said:

I very much appreciated the fact that the wife wasn't some jealous, vindictive harpy but a smart, reasonable woman

Right? How often does that happen? I thought she might be dim, or ugly, or overly timid, and so fare badly against Charlotte. But she was impressive. I do think the fact that this is a show made by women is the main reason for details like that. I also like that those two characters weren't sisters in arms all of a sudden. Just because they're women, doesn't make them friends.

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Right now I'm guessing that the king is a red herring and the justice is lying to Mrs Quigley, and implying it is someone she'd be willing to take a risk for, when it's actually someone less important

That's my guess too. The Justice has shown that he doesn't feel he owes Mrs. Quigley the truth. He doesn't feel he has to keep his word to her either. She's overestimating the respect he has for her. She should blackmail him, as a last resort.

Quote

Margaret really didn't do her any favors by making Lucy think she was somehow above it all.

Agreed. And I totally buy Lucy as a clueless teenager who doesn't know not to shoot off her mouth. It's exactly what she was doing at home in the brothel with the other harlots. (I like the way Charlotte also exasperates her mother.) But that's beside the point in this case, because whatever Lucy did or didn't say to the Reptons, he was going to rape her. When the warm-up act is being hunted out of doors, the main act is going to be violent. You know he raped sassy Charlotte as well. Mrs. Repton said that to Lucy to punish the only available target for the lashing Mr. Repton gave her at dinner.

[Nancypants]

Some explain that wierd face encircling ruff around ms bible thumpers face? And why does she refuse to look at people when they talk to her?

[OtterMommy]

2 hours ago, Kirsty said:

Right? How often does that happen? I thought she might be dim, or ugly, or overly timid, and so fare badly against Charlotte. But she was impressive. I do think the fact that this is a show made by women is the main reason for details like that. I also like that those two characters weren't sisters in arms all of a sudden. Just because they're women, doesn't make them friends.

(Talking about Charlotte and "the wife.")

I think it is also important to keep in mind that it was probably expected that what's-his-name would have a lover in London and that his marriage would be one of social and/or economic negotiation, not love.  Looking at it with modern eyes, yeah...it's a bit scandalous.  However, it most likely would not be to contemporary eyes.  I think the wife was far more concerned about her money (as she should be) than with the fact that Charlotte was her husband's mistress.

[HeySandyStrange]

I imagine that Caroline the wife is very relieved to have her husband distracted by Charlotte. I'm sure it takes all of Charlotte's wiles and skills not to roll her eyes at him. II appreciate that the show is not trying to paint any of the Johns as Byronic romantic heroes.

On a random note, as far as background characters go, I'm really liking Fanny(?), the larger gal that works for Margaret. She just seems so lively, cheerful and sweet. It is nice to see a plus sized actress presented as being attractive to others, going by some of her satisfied regulars, and not some joke.

[wonderchica05]

Loved the guy coming to find Fanny! She seemed very pleased the move wasn't going to hurt her business.

[OtterMommy]

2 minutes ago, wonderchica05 said:

Loved the guy coming to find Fanny! She seemed very pleased the move wasn't going to hurt her business.

My TV has been taken over by visiting family, so I haven't been able to go back and check this....was Fanny's customer the same constable (or whatever) who ultimately allowed Margaret and her girls into their Greek Street house?

[dleighg]

15 hours ago, Nancypants said:

And why does she refuse to look at people when they talk to her?

You mean the mother, who is blind? That's why.

[wonderchica05]

15 hours ago, OtterMommy said:

My TV has been taken over by visiting family, so I haven't been able to go back and check this....was Fanny's customer the same constable (or whatever) who ultimately allowed Margaret and her girls into their Greek Street house?

Yes, that was him. I think he said seeing Fanny fight that night reignited his lust for her lol.

[Nancypants]

On 4/17/2017 at 7:01 AM, dleighg said:

You mean the mother, who is blind? That's why.

What's the story with that wierd face ruffle?

[nodorothyparker]

If you look at styles of the time, most married or respectable women of the time period still wore a cap or some time of head covering in daily wear.  Some were more encompassing or sillier looking than others.

[kieyra]

7 hours ago, Nancypants said:

What's the story with that wierd face ruffle?

Thanks for asking. That thing drives me to distraction. I feel the same way about any period head covering (or even nun's ... wimples?) that fastens under the chin. Looks incredibly claustrophobic. Ditto Elizabethan collars. Ugh, get that stuff away from my face.

Also on the shallow end. I rewatched this episode and once again noted how good the casting on this show is, in terms of grabbing performers with striking looks. Lady Caroline looks like a porcelain doll, with the huge eyes and little tiny mouth. George is a moron.

I've only just now worked out that Violet and the pretty blond who sings are just street workers and not attached to the house. 

Nancy is the best, even though she only gets a few lines per episode. 

Even more confused about the manservant (?) who flirts with Charlotte, because in the pub he seemed dressed in very fine clothes. It seemed too nice for "livery", but what the hell do I know. 

Edited April 18, 2017 by kieyra

[snowwhyte]

I don't know if the Irish guy really is an aspiring male harlot or if that was just a flirtatious line for Charlotte but I quite like the idea of him showing George's wife a good time. You just know George's attentions to his wife were perfunctory and didn't even merit the removal of her nightgown. 

[JennyExiled]

On 4/15/2017 at 5:26 PM, HeySandyStrange said:

I assume it is because she is still young and beautiful enough to move on...

How old do we think Charlotte is? If Lucy is 18, Charlotte must be at least 20? 22? She seems even older to me, but that's probably because of the age of the actress, not her character. And she's been out since she was 12! So while she may be young, she's certainly not a new face on the scene and has been a harlot for many years now. I think it might be harder for her to move on than she might think. I wonder what her plan is for the future or if she's even given it any thought? She doesn't seem to want to run a house like her mom. 

[Ripley68]

I thought Lucy was 14 or 16?  No where near 18.  I would guess Charlotte is 18-20.  She is great at exuding the "mom, you're old and know nothing" attitude.

The Irish guy is an aspiring male harlot - thus he is asking the most successful harlot he knows for tips, as well as having the hots for each other.

[OtterMommy]

26 minutes ago, Ripley68 said:

I thought Lucy was 14 or 16?  No where near 18.  I would guess Charlotte is 18-20.  She is great at exuding the "mom, you're old and know nothing" attitude.

My guess would lean towards 14.  We know that she "debuted" later than Charlotte.  Also, if the allure of Lucy is that she is a virgin then, sadly, I think she would be on the younger side.

[tanita]

I think they said in episode 1 that she 16.

[Ripley68]

I thought for sure Lucy had shot Lord or lady Repton instead of the deer.  Loved her hunting outfit though.  I didn't get exactly what the Reptons were trying to accomplish with the hunting outing.

[mustbekarma]

On 04/22/2017 at 5:11 PM, Ripley68 said:

I thought for sure Lucy had shot Lord or lady Repton instead of the deer.  Loved her hunting outfit though.  I didn't get exactly what the Reptons were trying to accomplish with the hunting outing.

The Reptiles, er, Reptons were hunting Lucy. I'm 99% sure it was sexually, not literally. I was worried that she would be killed. Lucy apparently thought so. The poor girl was terrified. I think she could have handled sex. I'm not sure anyone could have handled the hunting "game" as their first time. I'm not counting Lord Fop. He was definitely a nightmare first time, too. The problem with being sold to the highest bidder is that the really scary people win. Unfortunately, that's the last thing an inexperienced Lucy needed. Seeing and experiencing are two different animals.

[vesperholly]

If anyone was wondering, the pretty piano and fiddle music at the end is "Last Lullaby" by The Unthanks from their album Mount the Air. Shazam was able to pick it up. Not on YouTube, but is available on iTunes and Spotify.

Not affiliated, I just loved the song. The music on this series is really interesting - reminds me of The Knick.

[LittleIggy]

Lucy isn't beautiful or witty enough to be a high-class courtesan.