S05.E06: Crossbreed

[qtpye]

34 minutes ago, Chaos Theory said:

Philip I am pretty sure your own son (both of them) know nothing of you.  And you know nothing of them.

As others have noted this season is focusing on food shortages and the second theme is Phillip and his sons compared to Phillip as his son.  Tuan is the son that Phillip shares the most with...this includes his life as a spy and a tragic childhood filled with depravation.  Misha looks at Phillip as a dream that he can never quite grasp.  Ironically, Henry, the son Phillip raised, knows the least about his father and now in this episode, we realize Phillip knew very little about his own father.  This is life in the KGB, secrets and have truths that build barriers between you and the people you love.   It should also be noted earlier when Henry dismissed running the travel agency, Phillip was annoyed in two ways.  The first was something along the lines of, "look, you entitled American brat, that agency gets you computers, an upper middle class lifestyle that I could only dream of eating moldy bread and cleaning bloody shoes."  The second is "yeah, the agency is lame and that is why it's a good cover, what I really do will blow your mind and in some way I hope I will never have to tell you about what I really do."

[Bannon]

So, does the KGB have to torture Mischa, in order for him to give up all the people and locations where he was given aid to escape to the West? Or does he do so when politely asked?

The writers have created a substantial loose thread. Can they skillfully snip it, or is the KGB going to be written stupid in a noncredible fashion(like the CIA often has) and/or suddenly humanistic?

[benteen]

13 hours ago, Erin9 said:

 

Only downside- Elizabeth's scene with Ben seemed like a total waste of time. It was pretty boring. He seems like a cool guy, but so what? 

Yeah, that scene went on too long and I didn't care for it either.

Paige gets to meet but her grandmother and Gabriel.  I feel bad that Henry is left out of all this but it's probably for the best.

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I loved this episode, and it was directed by B'Elanna Torres! You go girl!

I read Roxann Dawson's IMDB page a while ago.  She's established a really successful and prolific career directing for television.  Look it up sometime, there are some truly impressive shows on it.

Edited April 12, 2017 by benteen

[stagmania]

Echoing everyone else that loved this episode. Phillip may be the one whose emotional instability is getting attention and causing alarm, but Elizabeth is having her own little breakdown over in the corner. She's much more contained and subtle about it, but wow. Almost coming out with her feelings to Gabriel, freaking out at the Mary Kay lady, sitting outside Young Hee's house, the look of outright terror on her face when Gabriel warned Phillip. This is basically her version of falling to pieces. If and when a choice has to be made between her work and her family (and I have to assume we're headed there eventually), I think she may surprise us.

Side note: it was nice to see a brief reminder of Young Hee, especially since I just saw Ruthie Ann Miles on the stage last night. She's in the limited revival of Sunday in the Park with George on Broadway.

Edited April 12, 2017 by stagmania

[Bannon]

6 minutes ago, stagmania said:

Echoing everyone else that loved this episode. Phillip may be the one whose emotional instability is getting attention and causing alarm, but Elizabeth is having her own little breakdown over in the corner. She's much more contained and subtle about it, but wow. Almost coming out with her feelings to Gabriel, freaking out at the Mary Kay lady, sitting outside Young Hee's house, the look of outright terror on her face when Gabriel warned Phillip. This is basically her version of falling to pieces. If and when a choice has to be made between her work and her family (and I have to assume we're headed there eventually), I think she may surprise us.

Side note: it was nice to see a brief reminder of Young Hee, especially since I just saw Ruthie Ann Miles on the stage last night. She's in the limited revival of Sunday in the Park with George on Broadway.

Rhys and Russell have so often carried this show, and this episode is no exception. Really terrific acting.

[mwell345]

I'll go stand in the corner all alone it seems, because I found this episode, like this entire season so far, to be...blah.

Maybe the Americans has run its course with me.  I know I'm sick to death of Paige.  I think it's gone downhill ever since they made her a part of the story. 

[Inquisitionist]

7 hours ago, Dev F said:

Well, not exactly nothing, since having to lie to Philip about his own son is what convinced Gabriel he didn't have the stomach for the business anymore.

But were all the scenes of Misha's struggle to reach America necessary to make that particular point?  It felt very flat to me that after all that, Misha would complacently return to Russia, where he's been in danger before and could be again.  If this turns out to be the end of his story, it will not have worked for me.  But I doubt it's the end.

[SunnyBeBe]

I didn't take E's behavior at the door as overly emotional. I just thought that she was trying to get the lady away.  I would want to avoid the Mary Kay rep saying that she was in training and that her leader, Mrs. Lee, was parking the car and enroute to assist her in her presentation.   It's a small world.  Wouldn't that be a hoot.?

I have a question about P's childhood.  He recalls the teasing, cruel behavior and ugly looks from other kids, but, are we supposed to believe that none of the kids ever called him or his brother a name? I mean, if the poor treatment was due to his dad being a guard at the prison, wouldn't one of the kids have slipped up and said so or written it on a wall or something?  Just odd that no one told him why he was a target.  Sounds odd to me.  

I also wondered about the intimate conversation between P and Gabriel.  If Gabriel cares so much for P, why did he sound so cruel by telling P that his father was nothing.  Nothing?  Really?  Was he trying to say that his dad was not an evil mastermind of a prison or that he just did his job and didn't ask questions?  I don't get it.  He also said they all were nobodies.  I didn't follow that and how that would be comforting news to P.  Why wouldn't the compassionate thing to do would say that he was a prison guard who did he job and care for this family.  He could have even thrown in that he was honorable.  I mean.....I just didn't relate to that approach and why Gabriel went there.

Which leads to another question about P.  There is a long list of accomplishments by P.  He's helped pull off some pretty dicey missions.  Convincing Martha to go willingly without outing P was pretty big.  Then, there's getting the sample from William's body.  PLUS, he and E saved Gabriel's life when he contacted some bug and almost died.  The list goes on.  So, I'm just not sure why he's such a big question mark for The Center.  Gabriel said once on the questionable list, you're always there. What? So all of their assets are perfect?  

[Chaos Theory]

I can't say how much I have been looking forward to a Gabriel and Paige meeting.  It was on my top ten things this show just had to do before it ended.    It's always been in the back of my mind that the Jennings or the Center would push Paige to far and she would crack and turn P&E in but I am actually starting to think that maybe Henry will be the one to do it.  He idolizes Stan and doesn't understand his father at all.  When he finds out who his father really is.  I have no idea how he will react.

[Pickles]

I just cannot get enthused about Paige in any storyline. I really think it is the actress. 

[stagmania]

1 hour ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I have a question about P's childhood.  He recalls the teasing, cruel behavior and ugly looks from other kids, but, are we supposed to believe that none of the kids ever called him or his brother a name? I mean, if the poor treatment was due to his dad being a guard at the prison, wouldn't one of the kids have slipped up and said so or written it on a wall or something?  Just odd that no one told him why he was a target.  Sounds odd to me.  

Philip has said he remembers almost nothing from that time. So it's very possible that other kids did say something, but he was too young to understand or simply doesn't remember it now.

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I also wondered about the intimate conversation between P and Gabriel.  If Gabriel cares so much for P, why did he sound so cruel by telling P that his father was nothing.  Nothing?  Really?  Was he trying to say that his dad was not an evil mastermind of a prison or that he just did his job and didn't ask questions?  I don't get it.  He also said they all were nobodies.  I didn't follow that and how that would be comforting news to P.  Why wouldn't the compassionate thing to do would say that he was a prison guard who did he job and care for this family.  He could have even thrown in that he was honorable.  I mean.....I just didn't relate to that approach and why Gabriel went there.

I don't think he was trying to comfort Philip so much as just tell him how it was. His father was no one special and didn't call any shots; he simply did his job in service to the cause, as they all did. Gabriel doesn't strike me as the sort of person who would make up some rosy story of Philip's father to try to make him feel better. Philip probably wouldn't believe him if he did.

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Which leads to another question about P.  There is a long list of accomplishments by P.  He's helped pull off some pretty dicey missions.  Convincing Martha to go willingly without outing P was pretty big.  Then, there's getting the sample from William's body.  PLUS, he and E saved Gabriel's life when he contacted some bug and almost died.  The list goes on.  So, I'm just not sure why he's such a big question mark for The Center.  Gabriel said once on the questionable list, you're always there. What? So all of their assets are perfect?  

Philip has openly questioned the cause, has expressed doubts about their work numerous times and a sort of contentment with their American cover life, and reached a breaking point on the job that necessitated pulling him and Elizabeth out of rotation for seven months. That sort of thing isn't really tolerated within the KGB. It's only because he's so valuable, for all the reasons you mentioned above, that he hasn't already been taken out of the equation. Gabriel and Elizabeth seem rightly concerned that the Centre is watching him closely and will take action as soon as the hassle of keeping him in line outweighs the benefits of his work.

It's interesting to think about in light of Elizabeth's changing feelings over the last two seasons. IMO, she's getting closer to being on the questionable list herself, but they don't seem to be noticing. She's much better at hiding it than Philip is, even from herself. I don't think she would ever outright betray Russia or give up her closely held beliefs and ideology, but she's burned out and probably shouldn't be doing this job for much longer. 

Edited April 12, 2017 by stagmania

[dubbel zout]

10 hours ago, Ellaria Sand said:

Ben the Wheat Guy continues to be a cliche. Of course he does tai chi. There is something about him, his life style, his choices that Elizabeth finds intriguing.

I think it's that he's a true believer like she is, just of different beliefs. He's also an open, honest guy.

7 hours ago, Bannon said:

I'm not really buying that Paige could be a reliable KGB asset, or that the KGB would trust her.

Same here. Paige simply doesn't have the personality for doing field work, at any rate, and I don't think training could fix that.

7 hours ago, jjj said:

I wonder if Henry will be able to stand upright anytime soon?  He was totally hunched over the table with Stan, with his shoulder leaning into his place setting, to hide his height.

He's a teenage boy. They aren't exactly known for ramrod-straight posture. I don't quite get all the conversation about this. I'm as amused as everyone else that KS shot up practically overnight, but that happens. Just because his TV parents aren't tall doesn't mean Henry can't be. Genetics are wild and crazy things. And as far as Henry always sitting down, it's probably a blocking choice as much as anything else. It's much easier to frame a scene when everyone is at roughly the same level.

5 hours ago, Sighed I said:

Gabriel at the Lincoln Memorial was beautifully done as well.

 It really was. I wonder what was going through his mind. There's a lot of hope and promise packed into that particular stretch of real estate, and I think even a committed communist like Gabriel can't fail to see it.

ETA: I know it isn't in the show to spoon-feed, but when Gabriel apologized to Elizabeth for giving her yet another mission, knowing they're working her and Philip really hard, I wish we'd gotten some sort of explanation. "It's the job" is very unsatisfactory.

Edited April 12, 2017 by dubbel zout

[attica]

16 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

Just because his TV parents aren't tall doesn't mean Henry can't be. Genetics are wild and crazy things.

And considering both his parents grew up without much food, contrasting to Henry's fine American diet, of course he's taller!

I agree with Tara regarding the contemptible odiousness that is a green pepper, stuffed or otherwise.

Watching Langella's face fill up when he sees Paige? Made mine fill up too, I don't mind saying.

[txhorns79]

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I didn't take E's behavior at the door as overly emotional. I just thought that she was trying to get the lady away.  I would want to avoid the Mary Kay rep saying that she was in training and that her leader, Mrs. Lee, was parking the car and enroute to assist her in her presentation.   It's a small world.  Wouldn't that be a hoot.?

I took it in that way too, along with the general guilt over Young Hee.  It's an interesting thing to me.  For all of the focus on Phillip and his being less enthusiastic about the cause, Elizabeth clearly has her own issues with what they are doing as well.  She just isn't as obvious as Phillip.   

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But were all the scenes of Misha's struggle to reach America necessary to make that particular point?  It felt very flat to me that after all that, Misha would complacently return to Russia, where he's been in danger before and could be again.  If this turns out to be the end of his story, it will not have worked for me.  But I doubt it's the end.

 

Yeah, that would seem like a ridiculous amount of time to dedicate to a secondary character if they were going to turn around and be like: "And we never saw him again..."

[qtpye]

1 hour ago, mwell345 said:

I'll go stand in the corner all alone it seems, because I found this episode, like this entire season so far, to be...blah.

Maybe the Americans has run its course with me.  I know I'm sick to death of Paige.  I think it's gone downhill ever since they made her a part of the story. 

I agree.  I feel like nothing much is really going to happen this season, besides setting up things for the next finale season.  The spy game logistics have become laughable.  Let's go dig up biohazard William, who is conveniently buried instead of cremated.  The character development is solid, but it feels like forever at this point.  I get it, Phillip always has doubts and now the always loyal Elizabeth is also going to have doubts.  I am going to guess the final season will focus on the family trying to get away from the Centre,  this is pure speculation, but it is where I see it heading and right now it is a little tedious watching these characters get there.  Paige is not a great actress and the magical sink that is always running, so Henry can not hear is getting stupid.                                                                                                                       

[shura]

1 hour ago, mwell345 said:

I'll go stand in the corner all alone it seems, because I found this episode, like this entire season so far, to be...blah.

It could be that the whole episode was basically everybody emoting how they are suffering on the inside, and not much else. Usually we have tradecraft, a con operation going on, someone in danger of being caught, tension (was there even any in this episode?), period references, maybe comic relief of some kind AND the suffering. But 60 minutes of everybody exchanging meaningful glances or looking into the distance while thinking their own thoughts was just too much. It tired me out.

21 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

He's a teenage boy. They aren't exactly known for ramrod-straight posture.

Depends on the boy, some just have the posture naturally. What killed me about Henry is that he thought to bring food from his house to his friend. What teenage boy has ever done that? And, btw, vegetables!

[SunnyBeBe]

Man, that sure was a weird song that was played at the end. It sort of took me off guard.  I wasn't familiar with it. 

So far, not much mention about the lady Stan and partner met with in the park.  Is that the wife of the guy they were trying to court in previous episodes?

[dubbel zout]

11 minutes ago, attica said:

I agree with Tara regarding the contemptible odiousness that is a green pepper, stuffed or otherwise.

and

6 minutes ago, shura said:

And, btw, vegetables!

It looked like Henry did the only sensible thing when confronted with the odious stuffed green pepper: He ate only the filling. (Which in this case was basically a cheeseburger, right?)

[Trillian]

7 hours ago, Bannon said:

I'm not really buying that Paige could be a reliable KGB asset, or that the KGB would trust her. Hell, her parents have been so absentee for her entire life that there isn't any way that she could be seen as having been properly indoctrinated, and then we get to the problematic nature of the pastor and wife knowing that P & E are Soviets.

I've never understood how P &E could not have inculcated at least some lefty thinking in their children. We saw a tiny hint of something in the first episode, where Elizabeth talks of other nations' success in the space program, and later in Philip's hotel room, where he tells the kids about why the capitalist insurance company sponsored Mutual of Omaha's Wild Kingdom, but that's the extent of what we've seen. Obviously, they can't go around saying "make the rich pay" or advocating revolution, but they could have taught them about social justice issues even within the confines of acceptable American middle class ideology so that it wasn't quite so foreign to them.  We haven't even seen a hint, until the last episodes, of a respect for food and an understanding that other people go hungry - that could have been done without any ideology at all.  Maybe it is just that they were absentee parents (and they certainly weren't thinking that they were raising the next generation of spies), but you'd think some of it could have rubbed off in some subtle manner without calling attention to their hidden political ideals.

As an aside, i thought it was amusing that the Pastor gave Paige Capital to read.  I was about Paige's age when I tried to read it.  I was a pretty bright kid and had been raised as a socialist but I found it dense and nearly incomprehensible and finally gave up.  Give her the Communist Manifesto to read if you want to introduce her to Marxist thought and not bore her to death. Then again, maybe that's why Tim chose it.

2 hours ago, Bannon said:

So, does the KGB have to torture Mischa, in order for him to give up all the people and locations where he was given aid to escape to the West? Or does he do so when politely asked?

The writers have created a substantial loose thread. Can they skillfully snip it, or is the KGB going to be written stupid in a noncredible fashion(like the CIA often has) and/or suddenly humanistic?

They could just fly him home on United airlines, instead of Aeroflot.  That'll teach him to do as he's told.

[Bannon]

45 minutes ago, shura said:

It could be that the whole episode was basically everybody emoting how they are suffering on the inside, and not much else. Usually we have tradecraft, a con operation going on, someone in danger of being caught, tension (was there even any in this episode?), period references, maybe comic relief of some kind AND the suffering. But 60 minutes of everybody exchanging meaningful glances or looking into the distance while thinking their own thoughts was just too much. It tired me out.

Depends on the boy, some just have the posture naturally. What killed me about Henry is that he thought to bring food from his house to his friend. What teenage boy has ever done that? And, btw, vegetables!

Anything that involves Stan tends to not make a lot of sense.

I appreciated an episode without a lot of tradecraft, especially since, as qtpye noted above, so much of the tradecraft this year has been kind of ridiculous, and I have always though the show should be more based in psychology, relative to melodrama. I just think the best story arc this show has ever had, the torment (and ulitimately, that is what it was) of Martha, and her (spectacularly well acted) response to it, ended last season, and no other story arc has even come close to being written as well. Thus the show suffers, and the great acting of Rhys and Russell have to carry nearly the entire load. The writers should be thankful that these two actors were cast for the show.  

Edited April 12, 2017 by Bannon
typo

[Bannon]

38 minutes ago, Trillian said:

I've never understood how P &E could not have inculcated at least some lefty thinking in their children. We saw a tiny hint of something in the first episode, where Elizabeth talks of other nations' success in the space program, and later in Philip's hotel room, where he tells the kids about why the capitalist insurance company sponsored Mutual of Omaha's Wild Kingdom, but that's the extent of what we've seen. Obviously, they can't go around saying "make the rich pay" or advocating revolution, but they could have taught them about social justice issues even within the confines of acceptable American middle class ideology so that it wasn't quite so foreign to them.  We haven't even seen a hint, until the last episodes, of a respect for food and an understanding that other people go hungry - that could have been done without any ideology at all.  Maybe it is just that they were absentee parents (and they certainly weren't thinking that they were raising the next generation of spies), but you'd think some of it could have rubbed off in some subtle manner without calling attention to their hidden political ideals.

As an aside, i thought it was amusing that the Pastor gave Paige Capital to read.  I was about Paige's age when I tried to read it.  I was a pretty bright kid and had been raised as a socialist but I found it dense and nearly incomprehensible and finally gave up.  Give her the Communist Manifesto to read if you want to introduce her to Marxist thought and not bore her to death. Then again, maybe that's why Tim chose it.

They could just fly him home on United airlines, instead of Aeroflot.  That'll teach him to do as he's told.

I really think it was a missed opportunity to not write Paige as being more of a (intelligent) defiant teenager. Like tuning into a documentary about Berlin, with footage of people being shot dead trying to get over the wall, and asking, "Mom, why does our system have to kill people for the crime of trying to leave?" Have her be assigned Solzhenitsyn in her AP literature class, and start peppering her parents with questions (think of how that might have triggered some things within P, about dear ol' dad!). I know there were plenty of children of traditional American anti-communists  who adopted some variant of Marxism to torment their parents, and it would have been interesting to see that mirrored.  

Edited April 12, 2017 by Bannon
typo

[Pickles]

I am apparently clueless, because what was Elizabeth doing with the key and the match in the bathroom? Maybe I zoned out for a minute and missed something?

[sistermagpie]

9 hours ago, vb68 said:

I hope so. But as it stands, I don't think Philip has connected this to Henry and still really doesn't think about Henry that much.  The ease which with Henry confides in and noticeably relaxes with Stan is so telling.  And Philip throwing out there that Henry can take over the travel business one day shows once again that there's distance between them. I'm not saying Phillip can't connect to Henry, but there's got to be a lot more effort than we've seen so far. I continue to think P and E's neglect of Henry is what really's going to bite them in the end.

 

Yeah, I thought this last week too, that Philip has not realized anything about Henry. Especially in the scene they had together I thought they made it really obvious that Philip was on autopilot. His speech about running a business petered out as Henry left the room without Philip even really seeming to feel the insult Henry was trying to imply (at least I thought he was) because he was already more interested in the real conversation he was about to have with Elizabeth. Philip's still playing the role with Henry. He's a total mask. He cares, but he's not connected even enough to see that Henry's trying to send out a ton of signals that he's resentful. The issue isn't the minutia of Henry's life either--Philip and Elizabeth have both already theorized that he's got girlfriends. 

In the scene with Stan Henry again connected it to his parents thinking he's a screw up--which shows he's picking up on what's going on and just misinterpreting it. It fit with all the psychoanalysis. Like Henry gets something's going on and can't put his finger on it. Also note that as usual when Stan tried to pump Henry for information Henry gave him none at all: I don't talk to Paige about stuff like that. The kid's a natural vault. He'll give you the information he feels like venting about and nothing else.

Anyway, it seemed almost like there was a sad trombone noise appropriate when Philip realizes that he never knew his father at all and then the next scene is about introducing PAIGE to their father figure. I mean, obviously he can't introduce him to Henry at this point, but it's like P&E have become totally different parents to their two kids. With Henry it's more and more clear how they're just striking the pose of suburban parents. Not that they don't care about this stuff at all, but it's not about *them* in the way it is with Paige.  And that was fine when the kids were younger, but now they're coming to that same crossroads where they either tell the truth or cut the kid loose.

7 hours ago, Bannon said:

I'm not really buying that Paige could be a reliable KGB asset, or that the KGB would trust her. Hell, her parents have been so absentee for her entire life that there isn't any way that she could be seen as having been properly indoctrinated, and then we get to the problematic nature of the pastor and wife knowing that P & E are Soviets.

 

Yeah, I don't buy it either. But I also disagree that her parents have been absentee her entire life. They were perfectly normal to the kids growing up and have always obsessed and dissected Paige's moods throughout the entire show. (Henry's a little too, but he hasn't made trouble so there's been less to say.) The kid probably gets more attention than anybody in her class. Parents weren't expected to be that involved with the kid's day to day drama back then.

Btw, I was happy to read a similar comment by the showrunners recently. They were asked about the whole "Where's Henry?" thing and iirc they were basically like no, they're not making some big point about Philip and Elizabeth being terrible, they just a) need Henry to not be there in scenes so we make sure people know where he is and b) remember that this is what it was like in the 80s. Their own parents were the same way. If you said you were going to Chris's house that was fine.

6 hours ago, zibnchy said:

So this idea just popped into my head. What if Phillip's father isn't dead? I'm not good with TV show details - what do we actually know about his death?

Nothing except that, according to Philip, he died when he was 6, so around the time of these flashbacks.

 

6 hours ago, SWLinPHX said:

The producers would have no way for Rhys and Russell to speak Russian convincingly so that alone would mean Mischa would never meet Philip and it was all just a big, drawn out tease.

I don't think they plan things based around that. Gabriel talked to him in English and if they needed a scene MR can damn well do his best to struggle through the Russian. Most of the audience wouldn't be able to tell how badly he was speaking it and those who could would, I would hope, suspend disbelief.

I wonder if Gabriel, upon returning to the USSR, might set up something like a tape from Mischa and one back from Philip. Like what Elizabeth had with her mother. The Centre could then monitor it to make sure he wasn't saying anything terrible. And--better all around--they could maybe even get somebody else to do Philip's side so it can sound right.

1 hour ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I have a question about P's childhood.  He recalls the teasing, cruel behavior and ugly looks from other kids, but, are we supposed to believe that none of the kids ever called him or his brother a name? I mean, if the poor treatment was due to his dad being a guard at the prison, wouldn't one of the kids have slipped up and said so or written it on a wall or something?  Just odd that no one told him why he was a target.  Sounds odd to me.  

 

I wondered that too--and maybe there is more that Philip isn't remember. Also, what happened to the family after the father died? Especially his brother? 

1 hour ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I also wondered about the intimate conversation between P and Gabriel.  If Gabriel cares so much for P, why did he sound so cruel by telling P that his father was nothing.  Nothing?  Really?  Was he trying to say that his dad was not an evil mastermind of a prison or that he just did his job and didn't ask questions?  I don't get it.  He also said they all were nobodies.

I don't think he was being cruel, he was being honest. He doesn't want Philip to start obsessing over what his father might or might not have done. He was just another person doing what he had to do to survive, like Oleg's mom. Who was also in a camp and did what she had to do. Which makes me wonder...is there a real story about his parents in there somewhere? Did mom really meet him at a movie and think he was so awesome she married him a month later despite never speaking of him after that? Even though he was a despised guard?

1 hour ago, Chaos Theory said:

He idolizes Stan and doesn't understand his father at all.  When he finds out who his father really is.  I have no idea how he will react.

I don't know if I'd say he idolizes Stan, exactly. There's some of that but...I don't know, I feel like when Henry's with Stan he gets to indulge in being a certain kind of Henry. Like it's not even just about idolizing Stan but about Henry himself being this cool guy (maybe a bit of a dick, actually) when he's with Stan. I don't know how to explain it, but the whole bro-ey thing doesn't ever get into, like, Stan being an FBI agent and Henry being thrilled with that part. But even if Philip was paying attention he wouldn't buy the whole "There's nothing to tell...yet!" act. Stan's basically the friend who always tells him he's awesome. Just trying to put my finger on exactly what the dynamic is. It's note a total recreation of Paige/Pastor Tim.

There's that funny scene where Philip's asking if the guy asked Elizabeth about her dreams. (Elizabeth herself rolls her eyes at the psychotherapists very logical suggestions but has no eye roll for Ben's ista-chi alignment through vaguely copied Tai Chi that he learned where he was...because of course he did.) Dreams is like old school Freudian psychoanalysis, right? But EST isn't actually that different from all this. What was funny to me was that Philip is essentially doing old-school type psychoanalysis on himself with Elizabeth's help throughout the episode. When he said "It bothers me and I don't now why...I barely remember it!" It's like...isn't that the whole crux of psychoanalysis? Why do I keep having this dream/memory? 

And with Elizabeth's help he even uncovered an answer he seemed to have guessed already, that his father wasn't a logger. Seems like there must be a lot more there, though. The other thing about the father is not only was he lied to about him but it's really not healthy to stop talking about somebody like that after their death for children. I remember reading a whole thing about this once, and sometimes adults will get rid of all traces of the dead parent because they're painful to the kid but really it's just upsetting to them to see the person erased. Both Philip and Elizabeth seem to have learned to deal with trauma by just going forward like the shrink said, but these hints about Philip's past also suggest even more of a "pretend it didn't happen" vibe. And also if people were hostile to him for unknown (to him) reasons maybe that encouraged him to be the people pleaser he is now. A people pleaser who's very very good at killing. He seems to be trying to find the origin of that impulse most of all. Was it because of his childhood? Is it genetic?

Also I laughed at how open Paige always is to whatever somebody's selling. Religion, Marx, even Mary Kay at the door has a good pitch. (She even thinks Elizabeth's rude for giving her a firm no and shutting the door.)

4 minutes ago, Bannon said:

I really think it was a missed opportunity to not write Paige as being more of a (intelligent) defiant teenager. Like tuning into a documentary about Berlin, with footage of people being shot dead trying to get over the wall, and asking, "Mom, why does our system have to kill people for the crime of trying to leave?"

I do find it weird the way that Paige seems to do zero independent study on this. Like asking her mom if people are equal in the USSR. I'm almost exactly her age. Even if I was skeptical of the more extreme anti-Communist rhetoric I believed plenty of bad press about the USSR. (Bad press that was accurate.)

[Pickles]

8 minutes ago, Pickles said:

I am apparently clueless, because what was Elizabeth doing with the key and the match in the bathroom? Maybe I zoned out for a minute and missed something?

I have answered my own question with the help of google. Duh. She was making a copy of the key.

[SunnyBeBe]

So, I must have missed it.  Whose record is Elizabeth looking for in that psychiatrist office?  Gabriel gave her the assignment right, but, did he say much else about it?  During the consult E said that her friend Terry had seen a psychiatrist.  Was this her old friend?  Was this true?  Did she see that psychiatrist?  Or is there some FBI agent who has a mental problem and they are going to get intel on him in order to blackmail him into submission?

Regarding P & E teaching about social issues.  Didn't they let Paige attend war protest with Pastor Tim, before Paige knew the truth?

Edited April 12, 2017 by SunnyBeBe

[Ellaria]

49 minutes ago, Trillian said:

I've never understood how P &E could not have inculcated at least some lefty thinking in their children. We saw a tiny hint of something in the first episode, where Elizabeth talks of other nations' success in the space program, and later in Philip's hotel room, where he tells the kids about why the capitalist insurance company sponsored Mutual of Omaha's Wild Kingdom, but that's the extent of what we've seen. Obviously, they can't go around saying "make the rich pay" or advocating revolution, but they could have taught them about social justice issues even within the confines of acceptable American middle class ideology so that it wasn't quite so foreign to them.  We haven't even seen a hint, until the last episodes, of a respect for food and an understanding that other people go hungry - that could have been done without any ideology at all. 

22 minutes ago, Bannon said:

I really think it was a missed opportunity to not write Paige as being more of a (intelligent) defiant teenager. Like tuning into a documentary about Berlin, with footage of people being shot dead trying to get over the wall, and asking, "Mom, why does our system have to kill people for the crime of trying to leave?" Have her be assigned Solzhenitsyn in her AP literature class, and start peppering her parents with questions (think of how that might have triggered some things within P, about dear ol' dad!).

100% yes to both of these comments. Perhaps that's my on-going problem with Paige's junior spy storyline. She comes across as naive as evidenced by her "do you use your real names" comment. She also isn't particularly inquisitive about their history and ideology. And she is a bit needy.

Let me clarify: I'm not intending to be judgemental here; it is just my observation.

[Sarah 103]

I was so worried Oleg was going to commit suicide that I was yelling at my T.V. I'm glad he's okay for now. 

Philip reminded me so much of Paige when he was asking about his family. It's a desire to know who you are, and part of that is knowing where you came from. 

I don't understand why Stan is approaching random Russian people. Are they looking for a contact inside the Russian Embassy? 

[sistermagpie]

12 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

 

So, I must have missed it.  Whose record is Elizabeth looking for in that psychiatrist office?  Gabriel gave her the assignment right, but, did he say much else about it?  During the consult E said that her friend Terry had seen a psychiatrist.  Was this her old friend?  Was this true?  Did she see that psychiatrist?  Or is there some FBI agent who has a mental problem and they are going to get intel on him in order to blackmail him into submission?

 

I don't think we've been told what patient they're going after with the psychiatrist but the story about "Terry" was fake. She claimed Terry had seen a psychiatrist, but not this guy.

[curbcrusher]

19 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

So, I must have missed it.  Whose record is Elizabeth looking for in that psychiatrist office?  Gabriel gave her the assignment right, but, did he say much else about it?  During the consult E said that her friend Terry had seen a psychiatrist.  Was this her old friend?  Was this true?  Did she see that psychiatrist?  Or is there some FBI agent who has a mental problem and they are going to get intel on him in order to blackmail him into submission?

I don't recall the exact statement, but I thought when they were talking about the "new" op before Elizabeth went to see the shrink that Phillip said something that implied that the guy had CIA personnel in his client list.  They want access to the files of those patients for all their nefarious spy purposes. 
 

Quote

 

Can someone explain why so much time is being spent on a story about mismanaged produce??

What is the significance of Oleg destroying the notes and tape?  Does it mean that he won't cooperate with KGB as far a Stan goes?  A lot went into those few scenes for I am not really sure what.

 

I think Oleg was ready to turn. I think his getting back to the USSR, chasing down a produce manager, and threatening the son with a more dangerous assignment in Afghanistan left him in a place where he was ready to talk, or at least explore what the other side had to offer. Stan's meddling in the CIA op screwed this up. So the produce mismanagement story helped drive two arcs, the eventual downfall of Stan and Oleg's realization that he is ready to look for something else in life. I think Oleg's evidence destruction on the roof was him realizing that he is trapped.

[SunnyBeBe]

Oh, I must have had the names mixed up.  I was thinking that E's old friend who was a recovering alcoholic was named Terry.  What was that lady's name.  I think Elizabeth killed her with a wine bottle.

[MisterBluxom]

Oh my! I feel oh so bad. Poor guy just keeps getting pushed around and messed about. So many people deserve to get so much worse treatment. How and why is it possible that Phillip keeps on getting the short end of the stick?  The poor bastard just does not deserve so much terrible treatment. But, let me just ask you all something.  What has he done, what has he ever done such that they just keep giving him the terrible end of the stick (so to speak)? What (if anything), could he possibly do to make them stop and give him a better deal instead? It just angers me beyond all belief to see this guy keep on getting dumped on when he really does not deserve this kind of treatment. From his POV, this guy is a natural hero and deserves so much happiness in his life. But instead, he just keeps on getting one big lump of dump almost every single episode. I feel sorry for Phillip and I'd really like to see him get back at all the people who continue to oppress him. He does not deserve all this crummy kind of treatment. Poor sod!

[Sarah 103]

12 hours ago, benteen said:

Really good episode.  I think the best one so far this season.  Frank Langella was awesome and I thought it was great to see him and Paige finally meet.  Interesting information about Philip.  I loved the song choice at the end although I'm not familiar with it at all.

As soon as I saw Oleg in the prison I thought, if this were Miami Vice, we'd get a music montage now, and that's pretty close to what happened. 

12 hours ago, crgirl412 said:

Can someone explain why so much time is being spent on a story about mismanaged produce?? 

My guess is they are using it to stand in for the corruption and problems of the Soviet System. This is something that is easy to understand, trace, track, and would matter to many people. 

12 hours ago, Umbelina said:

If that's the last we see of Misha, I'm going to be slightly pissed off, all that time spent on him for basically nothing?  I must assume that Philip will find out somehow.

I didn't realize what I was seeing at first, but they couldn't have gone through all that for nothing. It must be building to something, I just have no idea what that is. 

11 hours ago, Ellaria Sand said:

Ben the Wheat Guy continues to be a cliche. Of course he does tai chi. There is something about him, his life style, his choices that Elizabeth finds intriguing.

I saw him do tai chi, and I swear "This is The End" by The Doors started to play in my head. My guess is that Elizabeth thinks she can recuit him and turn him. Someone who is already liberal and wants to make the world a better place would make Elizabeth think she has a chance. 

11 hours ago, vb68 said:

I continue to think P and E's neglect of Henry is what really's going to bite them in the end.

Me too, and I think it's going to be an accident. Henry will say something that from his perspective is totally innocent but sets off all sorts of alarm bells to Stan. 

2 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I have a question about P's childhood.  He recalls the teasing, cruel behavior and ugly looks from other kids, but, are we supposed to believe that none of the kids ever called him or his brother a name? I mean, if the poor treatment was due to his dad being a guard at the prison, wouldn't one of the kids have slipped up and said so or written it on a wall or something?  Just odd that no one told him why he was a target.  Sounds odd to me.  

Philip is dealing with repressed memories. He doesn't remember everything that happened. What you are describing could have happened, but Philip may not remember it yet. He is not trying to recall his childhood, it just happens, like PTSD flashbacks. 

2 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

I can't say how much I have been looking forward to a Gabriel and Paige meeting.  It was on my top ten things this show just had to do before it ended.    It's always been in the back of my mind that the Jennings or the Center would push Paige to far and she would crack and turn P&E in but I am actually starting to think that maybe Henry will be the one to do it.  He idolizes Stan and doesn't understand his father at all.  When he finds out who his father really is.  I have no idea how he will react.

I think Henry will put his family first and try to do everything he can to make sure Stan never finds out. 

41 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

In the scene with Stan Henry again connected it to his parents thinking he's a screw up--which shows he's picking up on what's going on and just misinterpreting it. It fit with all the psychoanalysis. Like Henry gets something's going on and can't put his finger on it. Also note that as usual when Stan tried to pump Henry for information Henry gave him none at all: I don't talk to Paige about stuff like that. The kid's a natural vault. He'll give you the information he feels like venting about and nothing else.

I don't know if I'd say he idolizes Stan, exactly. There's some of that but...I don't know, I feel like when Henry's with Stan he gets to indulge in being a certain kind of Henry. Like it's not even just about idolizing Stan but about Henry himself being this cool guy (maybe a bit of a dick, actually) when he's with Stan. I don't know how to explain it, but the whole bro-ey thing doesn't ever get into, like, Stan being an FBI agent and Henry being thrilled with that part.

Henry is so clearly a natural born spy, it's too funny that the Centre is going after Paige. I would say the dynamic between Stan and Henry is like a nephew and an uncle. Henry understands that Stan is an adult and not a peer, but at the same time, he's not a parent. Stan is a cool adult. 

[SunnyBeBe]

9 minutes ago, MissBluxom said:

Oh my! I feel oh so bad. Poor guy just keeps getting pushed around and messed about. So many people deserve to get so much worse treatment. How and why is it possible that Phillip keeps on getting the short end of the stick?  The poor bastard just does not deserve so much terrible treatment. But, let me just ask you all something.  What has he done, what has he ever done such that they just keep giving him the terrible end of the stick (so to speak)? What (if anything), could he possibly do to make them stop and give him a better deal instead? It just angers me beyond all belief to see this guy keep on getting dumped on when he really does not deserve this kind of treatment. From his POV, this guy is a natural hero and deserves so much happiness in his life. But instead, he just keeps on getting one big lump of dump almost every single episode. I feel sorry for Phillip and I'd really like to see him get back at all the people who continue to oppress him. He does not deserve all this crummy kind of treatment. Poor sod!

What do you mean by P getting bad treatment?  Being on The Center's Naughty list?  Being deprived of seeing his older son?  Being forced to kill innocent people?  I suppose that any KGB agent knows those things are a part of the job.  And life isn't fair.  Even though, he is, who he is, killer and all, I still like his character.  Once again, he has killed to defend himself and even killed a child when he was a child, but, if not for being tormented or threatened, he likely would not kill.  Most sociopaths don't have guilt over killing people.  He does.  

Also, some would say that P has it pretty well. He probably has people he grew up with who died from starvation or lack of medical care.  Many were not able to feed their own families, so, P likely considers himself fortunate that his family has so much.  Maybe, too much........Still, I get your point, but, what happiness will the writers give a KGB agent?  lol 

So what is Oleg thinking?  That they just gave up on him and went away? That somehow Stan intervened? That his dad found out and put those who threatened him to death? I wonder.....

Edited April 12, 2017 by SunnyBeBe

[sistermagpie]

2 minutes ago, Sarah 103 said:

Henry is so clearly a natural born spy, it's too funny that the Centre is going after Paige. I would say the dynamic between Stan and Henry is like a nephew and an uncle. Henry understands that Stan is an adult and not a peer, but at the same time, he's not a parent. Stan is a cool adult. 

Yes, I was just saying this elsewhere, but this show has really done a lot of interesting stuff with substitute relationships, which it seems to see as important and valuable, but not a replacement for the real thing. Stan and Henry enjoy each other's company because their rapport is so easygoing. Stan can easily tell his bud Henry that he was always a brainiac but nobody knew because he didn't work at it, because Stan's never cared about Henry's grades, wasn't riding him to do his homework, never wondered about how much time he spent playing video games. 

On one hand he's not like Pastor Tim where Henry's imprinted on him and is always saying he's the best. But otoh he feels like he knows and is known by Stan in ways he's not with his parents. And part of the reason for that is actually that he doesn't know Stan/is not known by Stan as much as he is with his parents. But he knows him/is known by him exactly as much as he wants to be.

[SunnyBeBe]

6 minutes ago, Sarah 103 said:

As soon as I saw Oleg in the prison I thought, if this were Miami Vice, we'd get a music montage now, and that's pretty close to what happened. 

My guess is they are using it to stand in for the corruption and problems of the Soviet System. This is something that is easy to understand, trace, track, and would matter to many people. 

I didn't realize what I was seeing at first, but they couldn't have gone through all that for nothing. It must be building to something, I just have no idea what that is. 

I saw him do tai chi, and I swear "This is The End" by The Doors started to play in my head. My guess is that Elizabeth thinks she can recuit him and turn him. Someone who is already liberal and wants to make the world a better place would make Elizabeth think she has a chance. 

Me too, and I think it's going to be an accident. Henry will say something that from his perspective is totally innocent but sets off all sorts of alarm bells to Stan. 

Philip is dealing with repressed memories. He doesn't remember everything that happened. What you are describing could have happened, but Philip may not remember it yet. He is not trying to recall his childhood, it just happens, like PTSD flashbacks. 

I think Henry will put his family first and try to do everything he can to make sure Stan never finds out. 

Henry is so clearly a natural born spy, it's too funny that the Centre is going after Paige. I would say the dynamic between Stan and Henry is like a nephew and an uncle. Henry understands that Stan is an adult and not a peer, but at the same time, he's not a parent. Stan is a cool adult. 

I guess, but, something about Stan when he was sitting at the table, eating and talking to Henry.....just turned me off.  IMO, Stan has an ick factor.  That's why it's so difficult to imagine a woman all into him.  The part that I think appealed to Nina was the serious side.....his comical, light side just seems awkward.  He is truly socially awkward, imo. 

[Bannon]

20 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Oh, I must have had the names mixed up.  I was thinking that E's old friend who was a recovering alcoholic was named Terry.  What was that lady's name.  I think Elizabeth killed her with a wine bottle.

When E quits the spy trade, the rates for life insurance in Maryland, Virginia, and D.C., are going to plummet. She's as bad as a Lassa fever epidemic she thought the Americans might unleash. 

[Razzberry]

I don't see Henry as a good candidate for recruitment at all.  Paige is rather pathetic and needy, but Henry seems to have much less connection with the family and probably wouldn't notice if they left for a week.  

I keep waiting for some suspense in this show.  Perhaps they're saving it for next season. 

[crgirl412]

1 hour ago, Trillian said:

I've never understood how P &E could not have inculcated at least some lefty thinking in their children. We saw a tiny hint of something in the first episode, where Elizabeth talks of other nations' success in the space program, and later in Philip's hotel room, where he tells the kids about why the capitalist insurance company sponsored Mutual of Omaha's Wild Kingdom, but that's the extent of what we've seen. Obviously, they can't go around saying "make the rich pay" or advocating revolution, but they could have taught them about social justice issues even within the confines of acceptable American middle class ideology so that it wasn't quite so foreign to them.  We haven't even seen a hint, until the last episodes, of a respect for food and an understanding that other people go hungry - that could have been done without any ideology at all.  Maybe it is just that they were absentee parents (and they certainly weren't thinking that they were raising the next generation of spies), but you'd think some of it could have rubbed off in some subtle manner without calling attention to their hidden political ideals.

As an aside, i thought it was amusing that the Pastor gave Paige Capital to read.  I was about Paige's age when I tried to read it.  I was a pretty bright kid and had been raised as a socialist but I found it dense and nearly incomprehensible and finally gave up.  Give her the Communist Manifesto to read if you want to introduce her to Marxist thought and not bore her to death. Then again, maybe that's why Tim chose it.

They could just fly him home on United airlines, instead of Aeroflot.  That'll teach him to do as he's told.

I wrote about this years ago!  I said that at least they could have The Nation laying around or listen to NPR even.  It really bothers me that P & E are so committed to something that they give their entire lives to it but then don't try to raise their kids with that worldview in any way, shape or form.  That is so unrealistic. 

Were you raised in same time frame as Paige and Henry?  How did your parents raise you as a socialist even if you weren't?   

[sistermagpie]

6 minutes ago, Razzberry said:

I don't see Henry as a good candidate for recruitment at all.  Paige is rather pathetic and needy, but Henry seems to have much less connection with the family and probably wouldn't notice if they left for a week.  

 

I think Henry actually has a history of being emotional about the family not being where he wants them to be when he wants them to be there. Now that things have changed with Paige I think he wants a connection to them and isn't sure why she seems to have more of one.

That's totally exploitable by the Centre, should they choose to go that way. Henry's said twice now that he's hurt by the feeling that his parents don't think he's good enough.

[Bannon]

58 minutes ago, Sarah 103 said:

 

Me too, and I think it's going to be an accident. Henry will say something that from his perspective is totally innocent but sets off all sorts of alarm bells to Stan. 

 

"Hey, Mr. Beeman, let's go talk over by the kitchen sink, with the faucet running! My parents think that makes every conversation better! "

Edited April 12, 2017 by Bannon

[kokapetl]

1 hour ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Oh, I must have had the names mixed up.  I was thinking that E's old friend who was a recovering alcoholic was named Terry.  What was that lady's name.  I think Elizabeth killed her with a wine bottle.

Lisa who worked at Northrop?

[SunnyBeBe]

Yes, Lisa. That's right. 

[Bannon]

13 minutes ago, Razzberry said:

I don't see Henry as a good candidate for recruitment at all.  Paige is rather pathetic and needy, but Henry seems to have much less connection with the family and probably wouldn't notice if they left for a week.  

I keep waiting for some suspense in this show.  Perhaps they're saving it for next season. 

I've thought it unfortunate that they write Paige as not particularly bright, but I've never understood why some think she is written as especially needy. When your parents put you in real danger of spending decades in solitary confinement, extreme anxiety is a pretty normal response. Lots of teenagers expend a lot more energy, is search of attention, in response to not having the right brand of shoes to wear, than Paige does in response to her parents potentially getting her stuck in a Federal Supermax prison. A constant stream of withering, well-informed, sarcasm, targeting the danger her parents placed her in, would have been great in this show, and possibly a pretty good source of comic relief. Instead, we get some not-too-intelligent questions and a worried look.

[dubbel zout]

18 minutes ago, crgirl412 said:

It really bothers me that P & E are so committed to something that they give their entire lives to it but then don't try to raise their kids with that worldview in any way, shape or form.  That is so unrealistic. 

I don't know. Maybe the Centre told them not to say anything so that the kids would be more "American." It would also protect Elizabeth and Philip's cover if no one stood out that way. Now that the kids are teenagers, though, introducing them to socialism wouldn't cause problems, I think, as long as it's done properly. After all, teens grab on to different ideologies all the time. But it also depends on the kids. You need to know their personalities.

[kokapetl]

Disappointed to see the wheat plot is still going on. Just steal it when it's ready.

[stagmania]

1 hour ago, MissBluxom said:

How and why is it possible that Phillip keeps on getting the short end of the stick?  The poor bastard just does not deserve so much terrible treatment. But, let me just ask you all something.  What has he done, what has he ever done such that they just keep giving him the terrible end of the stick (so to speak)? What (if anything), could he possibly do to make them stop and give him a better deal instead? It just angers me beyond all belief to see this guy keep on getting dumped on when he really does not deserve this kind of treatment. 

I'm confused-who is "they" here? Do you mean his treatment by the Centre, or his treatment by the writers of the show? I'm also not clear on what you mean by terrible treatment in relation to this specific episode. Philip is a KGB agent and a killer. I know he's easy to sympathize with because Matthew Rhys and all, but I can't say I think he deserves a better deal.

20 minutes ago, crgirl412 said:

I wrote about this years ago!  I said that at least they could have The Nation laying around or listen to NPR even.  It really bothers me that P & E are so committed to something that they give their entire lives to it but then don't try to raise their kids with that worldview in any way, shape or form.  That is so unrealistic. 

I always assumed this was a directive from the Centre-they were to raise their kids as "normal" Americans and not get into political stuff with them. Of course, that doesn't really work out in the long run once they decided they should be recruiting the kids.

[shura]

1 hour ago, Sarah 103 said:

I don't understand why Stan is approaching random Russian people.

He's not sure Renee is going to work out and is looking for options?

I loved how they lampshaded the question of why exactly Alexei had to travel to the greenhouse in person. It seemed like Gabriel and Elizabeth pronounced his last name differently in that scene though. Come on, Russians, figure out how to say common Russian names!

I don't think we should assume that Philip's father would necessarily be despised for being a camp guard, and that other kids would be giving young Philip a hard time over that. This is still the 1940s, Stalin is not dead yet. Many people still believe that what the NKVD is doing is necessary to protect the Soviet state from it's numerous enemies. To these people, Philip's father might just be someone in law enforcement. And even people who knew the truth might shield their kids from it, just to avoid the situation where their kids give away what their parents are thinking.

[Bannon]

6 minutes ago, Kokapetl said:

Disappointed to see the wheat plot is still going on. Just steal it when it's ready.

They don't need to steal it. The company intends to sell it. The whole arc was poorly constructed. 

[Ina123]

1 hour ago, Sarah 103 said:

I don't understand why Stan is approaching random Russian people. Are they looking for a contact inside the Russian Embassy? 

He's doing his job. They are trying to recruit Russians to spy and work for US intel.

[sistermagpie]

8 minutes ago, shura said:

I don't think we should assume that Philip's father would necessarily be despised for being a camp guard, and that other kids would be giving young Philip a hard time over that.

I think the assumption came because it was the assumption Philip seemed to be making. He remembered his father bringing things home, which led him to remembering the guys glaring at him and his brother. Elizabeth then wondered if the kids who targeted him were related to those guys. Philip said maybe "some of them" were, which implied even more kids picking on him. All that led directly to him asking if his father was really a logger.

So Philip, at least, seemed to think that the glares and beatings might have been all part of this central mystery.