S04.E10: XXXVIII

[henripootel]

3 hours ago, Ottis said:

Why would this make you think the reunion happened? What if the answer was that Thomas wasn't there?

This is what I was trying to imply - that I held out hope that Silver tried to find Thomas but we had no reason to suspect that he was successful.  I mean what're the odds that Thomas was even sent there?  It sounded way too much like the story my in-laws told my now-wife when her childhood dog 'relocated' to a farm.  She didn't figure it out until college.

More argument that Flynn is dead - why didn't he tell Silver where the money was?  I'm sure Silver still wanted it, or at least would like to know where it was for future reference.  I'da thought Silver would make a deal with Flynn, that if Thomas was there like Silver said, Flynn would tell him how to find the treasure.  The war was definitely off, so that was done.  Can't imagine Silver reuniting Flynn with the love of his life without a trade in mind.  

Also can't imagine that Flynn would have any trouble escaping prison plantation, whenever he wanted and with Thomas in tow.  Nor letting his beloved remain in a life of hard labor.  I'm finding it hard to believe that Flynn isn't dead. 

[magdalene]

I choose to believe that Silver didn't kill Flint and did send him to reunite with Thomas.  I don't know though whether I believe that Flint and Thomas had this technicolor reunion and lived happily ever after.  I think Silver wanted to believe in it and that's what he told Madi.

Sometimes you just want to believe in the best possible outcome. For example, I know full well what the real life fate of Jack Rackham was but still I was happy as a clam and lalalala for the fictional Rackham in the show finale.

[raven]

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I have no problem believing that James could cast off his Flint identity as easily as that... after all, it's what that persona was intended for. 

I agree - it's what he went to Charleston with Miranda for.  Then recently, Flint was exchanging the treasure for Eleanor's offer of complete withdrawal from Nassau without fighting. 

I don't think it was just Thomas - I think Silver had to make a persuasive argument about why they weren't going to win and I think that Silver may have spoken with the Queen.  He would need her support to convince Julius as well.  Silver made his decision about what he wanted and how to get it when Madi's life was at risk and he never wavered from that.  I think he started planning right from that point about how to end everything.  So Silver has Madi, a treaty, a captured Rogers and Jack to go back and secure the peace with Guthrie backing.  I would love to have heard the conversations between Silver and Jack.

I think the combination of Thomas, Silver convincing Flint that the fight wasn't going to yield what he (Flint) wanted, that, ultimately, the stories aren't important, it's the life you lead - maybe these things convinced Flint.  Maybe Flint didn't think Silver could kill him and he didn't want to kill Silver, or the thought of seeing Thomas again made life worth living for Flint.

I think Silver would have killed Flint but gave one last sales pitch and it worked. 

1 hour ago, Slovenly Muse said:

Flint, however, is a brilliant tactician who did not allow his crew to fall into alarm and chaos, but implemented a plan that was unexpected and effective at seizing control from Rogers' men.

I have to mention and agree with this because I laughed at Jack's comment "you people!" when Silver agreed that Flint should captain Jack's ship during the battle. 

The other thing was that Flint said he would not use his great guns because they could inadvertently kill Madi.  Rogers was racing towards them to ram them and maybe he didn't want to use his guns because he needed Flint alive to retrieve the treasure (he said as much earlier).  Or maybe he is just an idiot, LOL.

Flint was able to separate the two masts and Jack got the ship swung around.   At that point the two ships are too close together to use their big guns.

I thought the Billy/Flint fight was a nice callback to Billy's first dip into the ocean way back when, courtesy of a possibly intentional Flint.

1 hour ago, Slovenly Muse said:

Man, I am really going to miss this show. But I am glad Flint and Thomas definitely, absolutely, no question, got their happy ending. Because they did.

Sunset, guys. Sunset.

Damn straight :)

ETA I liked the Jack/Anne reunion hug but I wondered she's still wandering around in that same blanket???

[ganesh]

That happened actually really fast. I think this version of Silver lines up nice with the book though. 

Yay Jack lives! Also, *awesome* plan to take down Rogers. I'd love to see a miniseries to take us right up to and through the book, but alas. 

I do like how the treasure was more trouble than it was worth. 

I loved who the new governor was!!!

Well, Starz, you haven't failed me yet. Crash, Spartacus, Ash, DaVinci. See you soon.

[WatchrTina]

6 hours ago, henripootel said:

The whole notion of the plantation where society sends their refuse sounds plausible, but it it's own way, unlikely.

Actually that sort of thing went on well into the 20th century.  Google "Magdalene Laundries" or just click on this link https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magdalene_Laundries_in_Ireland

I learned of these homes when I saw a movie about them -- The Magdalene Sisters -- at a film festival.  I went home absolutely enraged, got on the internet and learned that that narrative film was based on a documentary released a few years earlier that revealed how from the 18th century to the mid-20th century Irish Catholics were able to send away troublesome girls to these homes where they did physical labor (laundry work) for as long as their families thought appropriate -- sometimes forever.  The movie follows the fates of several young women -- one who is sent to the laundry after being raped by her cousin at a wedding.  (The family decided it was better to blame the victim and spirit her away than see a male member of the family disgraced and punished.)  

So these kinds of places may actually have existed, catering to fine, upstanding families who needed a place to dump troublesome relatives.  That being said -- teenaged girls and young women are much more vulnerable and easily controlled than men -- especially trained soldiers and pirates.  IF Flint really did end up there (and not in a shallow grave on Skeleton Island) we would TOTALLY have broken out of there.  The only thing that could have kept him there was if Thomas were ill and too weak to flee with him.  In which case, he'd stay and be James McGraw -- but only so long as Thomas lived.  After that -- Captain Flint would rise again.

3 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

There's the real question in this then:  Do we believe Silver lied to Madi, the woman he wants a life with?  And if so, is he prepared to live the rest of his life with her believing that lie?

Here's another question.  Do we think Madi really believed him?  Couldn't this be one of those situations where one person tells a lie to try to give the other a face-saving way to stay in the relationship and the other decides to "believe" the lie (knowing full well it's probably a lie) in order to preserve the relationship?  I think stuff like that goes on all the time in life. 

Edited April 4, 2017 by WatchrTina

[DarkRaichu]

2 hours ago, henripootel said:

More argument that Flynn is dead - why didn't he tell Silver where the money was?  I'm sure Silver still wanted it, or at least would like to know where it was for future reference.

No he did not want the treasure.  At that point he only wanted to live in peace with Madi.  The treasure was just a mean to that end.  Once he figured out what Rackham & Max were planning, he knew there was a more peaceful alternative than Flint's nightmare.  Moreover, in this alternative scenario, having the treasure hidden is important to keep the arrangement Max made with grandma Guthrie.  The Guthrie do not need the treasure to keep peace in Nassau, but anyone else who controls it posses a mean to destroy that stability.  To this end, he could have killed Flint to keep the treasure hidden forever, but he offered his best friend an alternative more peaceful ending instead.

[nodorothyparker]

Quote

Here's another question.  Do we think Madi really believed him?  Couldn't this be one of those situations where one person tells a lie to try to give the other a face-saving way to stay in the relationship and the other decides to "believe" the lie (knowing full well it's probably a lie) in order to preserve the relationship?  I think stuff like that goes on all the time in life. 

And that's entirely possible as well.  It depends on what we believe the characters believe.

It's worth noting that the Georgia colony "north of Spanish Florida" hasn't officially been founded yet at the time our story takes place but when it does the intention will be as a reform-minded alternative to English prisons for debtors and criminals.  It obviously doesn't stay that long term but the idea was certainly there.  In addition, Great Britain was "transporting" people to its various holdings through the American colonies and West Indies for indentured servitude as punishment for myriad offenses throughout.  Yes, the attrition rate was high but it was fairly high throughout the new world unless you were wealthy enough to be shielded from a lot of the daily hardships.

[henripootel]

56 minutes ago, DarkRaichu said:

To this end, he could have killed Flint to keep the treasure hidden forever, but he offered his best friend an alternative more peaceful ending instead.

It's a nice thought and I know it's the one the writers want us to believe Silver settled on, but that doesn't mean it makes much sense.  Silver's a smart guy, and if he was committed to keeping the treasure out of play in order to maintain the peace, he was being remarkably unrealistic about the likelihood that this plan would actually work.  Too many people know about the treasure, most notably Flynn - what're the chances that he (if he really did make it to Prison Plantation) would remain there, laboring with Thomas, forever?  I totally agree with you - he's perfectly capable of escaping any prison, and who's to say he wouldn't eventually blab about the treasure?  Which we know he did, much later, kicking off Treasure Island, but Silver had no way of knowing Flint wouldn't do this after 6 months or 6 days.  

Plus tons of other folks know enough about where the treasure is to give it a shot.  If the old guy who died on the way to the island could find his way back, who's to say who else among Rackham's crew couldn't.  Who's to say Rackham won't?  Maybe not this year or the next, but eventually.  I mean the new order absolutely outlawed piracy, and we know this because Jack told that kid this very thing as he added him to his pirate crew. 

Smart guy like Silver knows the only way to keep a treasure safe is if only two people know about it, and one is dead.  The only genuinely safe thing to do is find the treasure and put it beyond reach, but to do that he'd have to find it.  Can't imagine why Silver left his and Madi's long-term safety basically to luck when there was no reason he had to.  And I think the only reason this plan worked was ... because the writers said so.  

1 hour ago, WatchrTina said:

Actually that sort of thing went on well into the 20th century.

Oh, I know, I gave an example of a similar institution that went on for centuries.  My point was that even though the ostensive reason for wet nurses was to farm out unwanted kids, the real reason was to get rid of them, while still being able to tell yourself a nice story about how their lives probably turned out great.  What actually happened was that most of them died.  I meant to imply that even if Prison Plantation existed and Thomas got sent there, it was unlikely that he'd have a long and healthy life.  How long has Flint been a pirate?  Many years, certainly, maybe decades.  I'd find it easy to believe that even if Thomas was sent there, he didn't last long, not long enough to reunite him with Flint.  

Hey, I'm not against true love here, I'm just trying to be realistic.  For a show that seemed a least somewhat anchored in reality for a pirate drama, Flynt's end seemed unlikely in many regards and unrealistically rosy.  I still find it hard to believe that much of James even remained.  He went full dark-side after Savannah - shit like that changes a man.  I don't know if I'd be able to look my wife in the eye after I'd gone on a flat-out murder spree, I'd be too afraid of what she'd see there. 

Edited April 4, 2017 by henripootel

[tessathereaper]

7 hours ago, henripootel said:

My only reason for thinking it actually happened was the opening scene where Silver's emissary is asking after someone specific, whom we later know is Thomas.  Nothing dreamy about that that I recall, and were it not for this, I'd have waited patiently for the reveal that Silver put a bullet in Flint and left him near that rock. 

The whole notion of the plantation where society sends their refuse sounds plausible, but it it's own way, unlikely.  Case in point - wet nurses.  Back in the day, society bastard babies were often sent to professional 'wet nurses', lactating women who took in wayward kids for money.  Sounds rosy but in reality the death rate among these kids was astronomical.  The reality was that people sent their 'little problems' off to die, but out of sight.  My guess is that the prison planation, were it to actually exist, would be much the same.  The disease load among agricultural workers in that region at that time was withering, so I kinda doubt Thomas would have lasted long enough for Flint to take up and then give up piracy.

Along those lines ... not convinced that Flint could give up piracy.  I kinda thought that was Flint's journey, that anything that was James really and truly was gone, and only Flint remained.  I'm sure he could have recovered something of himself with Thomas' love and time but the notion that he'd just go 'poof - Flint's gone like he never happened' sounds unlikely.  I know Flint was tired and worn but he'd been gearing up for war, and suddenly he's cool about instant retirement as, basically, a slave?  Even a domestically happy slave - no.  The only way it makes sense to me that Flint (with Thomas) never escaped and returned to Nassau was because he never made it to retirement plantation, and Thomas was never there, even if retirement planation actually existed.

Yeah that's my thing, especially with that heartbreaking speech about how civilization just turned them into monsters, and illuminating the dark, etc.(god, Toby Stephens is GOOD).  Would he just then go "Oh Thomas is alive, let's blow this joint and go to Savannah, war, what war?"    As I said I think Flint believed this, whatever is faults and flaws, he was a man of principle in many ways and for him the war wasn't just revenge, it was about that principle.

Would he then just be like "hey OK fine" to go live as essentially a slave on a prison farm?  Miranda died for this, I mean a good chunk of last season was devoted to the effect her death had on him.  He may not have been in love with Miranda but he did love her, she was important to him and due to what happened in a many ways he actually knew her better with them having spent so many years and gone through so much together. 

Plus I think the way that last scene between Silver and Madi was filmed showed there was now something between then, THIS was between them and honestly, I don't think it ever left.  He really disrespected her, he patronized her.  He planned to undermine her the whole time and now she knows it. I don't think she'll ever thank him for that.  

Edited April 4, 2017 by tessathereaper

[henripootel]

5 minutes ago, tessathereaper said:

god, Toby Stephens is GOOD

I should have taken time to say this.  With all my quibbles about what actually happened, I thought that scene was heart-rending.  Stephens and Luke Arnold were amazing.  I am gonna miss this show. 

[tessathereaper]

4 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

There's the real question in this then:  Do we believe Silver lied to Madi, the woman he wants a life with?  And if so, is he prepared to live the rest of his life with her believing that lie?  They went into that conversation with her already angry that the Maroon alliance had accepted the treaty and the war was ending.  She also already believed Silver had killed Flint.  The rest of our cast of characters will believe what they will.  As long as Flint doesn't suddenly reappear on the deck of a ship somewhere with guns a blazing, it doesn't really matter whether he's retired or dead.  He'll just be a name they remember from back in the day when they were all pirating.  

But it matters very much what Madi thinks.  Does she believe Silver is the man who killed his partner, the man who was closest to him, and be left to think it's really shitty that the war effort fell apart so quickly in his absence with everyone accepting peace terms but what are you going to do?  Or does she believe his story that he quietly took Flint out of the game but get to be a whole new round of angry at him as she susses out that he was plotting an end to the war she was willing to give her life for behind her back and lying to her throughout?  Silver knows how smart she is and that if he offered up that thread she was likely to pull it.

See I don't think Madi really believed him.  I don't see the "happy ending" in them facing each other on that cliff.  I think Madi at that point felt her choices were very limited and she was trying to accept what she was handed. I don't think she liked it and I don't think things were ever the same between them.  

Funny people say "she's really smart" and yet think somehow she needed to be "saved" by Silver from falling for Flint's plan and following it through.  Madi wanted that war, and to be quite honest, even if it would have all failed in the end, I think they could have potentially done a lot to weaken the British position and maybe even the Spanish - esp if they could really foment revolt among the slaves because that is what those empires were built on.  I don't think she and Flint were necessarily wrong.  IMO in a way, Silver took the easy way out.  

[DarkRaichu]

1 hour ago, henripootel said:

It's a nice thought and I know it's the one the writers want us to believe Silver settled on, but that doesn't mean it makes much sense.  Silver's a smart guy, and if he was committed to keeping the treasure out of play in order to maintain the peace, he was being remarkably unrealistic about the likelihood that this plan would actually work.  Too many people know about the treasure, most notably Flynn - what're the chances that he (if he really did make it to Prison Plantation) would remain there, laboring with Thomas, forever?  I totally agree with you - he's perfectly capable of escaping any prison, and who's to say he wouldn't eventually blab about the treasure?  Which we know he did, much later, kicking off Treasure Island, but Silver had no way of knowing Flint wouldn't do this after 6 months or 6 days.  

Plus tons of other folks know enough about where the treasure is to give it a shot.  If the old guy who died on the way to the island could find his way back, who's to say who else among Rackham's crew couldn't.  Who's to say Rackham won't?  Maybe not this year or the next, but eventually.  I mean the new order absolutely outlawed piracy, and we know this because Jack told that kid this very thing as he added him to his pirate crew. 

Smart guy like Silver knows the only way to keep a treasure safe is if only two people know about it, and one is dead.  The only genuinely safe thing to do is find the treasure and put it beyond reach, but to do that he'd have to find it.  Can't imagine why Silver left his and Madi's long-term safety basically to luck when there was no reason he had to.  And I think the only reason this plan worked was ... because the writers said so.  

Damn it that makes sense, but I am choosing to believe the alternative just because it is the end of the season and I want some kind of happy ending :D ;)

1 hour ago, tessathereaper said:

IMO in a way, Silver took the easy way out.

Isn't that essentially who Silver was in 1st season?  He grew so much from that guy, even becoming like Flint to a degree, but that part remains.  Although I cannot blame him for choosing his own way just because Flint never had the answer to the question: "to what end?".  Flint is literally the definition of chaos but in order to build something that can flourish people need peace and stability. 

[WatchrTina]

21 minutes ago, DarkRaichu said:

Isn't that essentially who Silver was in 1st season?

Yep.  Silver is a survivor, not a martyr.  Madi, on the other hand, would have sacrificed her life to the cause. That's why I don't imagine a long-term happy ending for those two.

[Enero]

2 hours ago, tessathereaper said:

See I don't think Madi really believed him.  I don't see the "happy ending" in them facing each other on that cliff.  I think Madi at that point felt her choices were very limited and she was trying to accept what she was handed. I don't think she liked it and I don't think things were ever the same between them.  

Just curious, why would her choices be limited and thus she'd have to accept Silver? Once the war was over and Treaties signed she didn't need him for anything. She had a family, community and freedom right there on the island. In fact, she could've forced him to leave the island, took up with another man or just refused to give him the time of day again. She didn't have to seek him out on the cliffs, but I think she WANTED to. Madi was very strong willed and confident woman, I find it hard to believe that she would've just settled for Silver just because and lived a life of unhappiness with him and honestly I don't think Silver would've stood for that either. 

 I think the fact that she did allow him to stay on the island meant, though angry and hurt over his betrayal, that she was not quite ready to cut him off completely. To me, this situation was no different than a betrayal in a real life relationship, you may be pissed and hurt at what the person did, even ask them to move out and take a break from the relationship, but you may eventually come to a point where you'd like to try again. 

I think this is where Madi was in that final scene. Was she ready to move Silver back into her hut? Make love to him? I doubt it, but she was IMHO ready to start the process of moving forward. Was the relationship perfect after that, absolutely not. What marriage/long term relationship is, but I think based on the events of TI they were able to build from there a solid marriage. 

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Isn't that essentially who Silver was in 1st season?  He grew so much from that guy, even becoming like Flint to a degree, but that part remains.  Although I cannot blame him for choosing his own way just because Flint never had the answer to the question: "to what end?".  Flint is literally the definition of chaos but in order to build something that can flourish people need peace and stability. 

I completely agree. It was never going to be enough for Flint as Silver so rightfully pointed out during their confrontation on the island. The battles would be endless because Flint was driven by rage and had nothing to lose. His desire was to watch the world burn (Not to fight. Win, and rebuild a better society) and to keep fighting until the fight killed him. Flint didn't have a plan for when it would be over, because it wouldn't be over for him until the world was in shambles and/or he was dead, which was why Silver put a stop to it. 

Edited April 4, 2017 by Enero

[tessathereaper]

15 minutes ago, DarkRaichu said:

Damn it that makes sense, but I am choosing to believe the alternative just because it is the end of the season and I want some kind of happy ending :D ;)

Isn't that essentially who Silver was in 1st season?  He grew so much from that guy, even becoming like Flint to a degree, but that part remains.  Although I cannot blame him for choosing his own way just because Flint never had the answer to the question: "to what end?".  Flint is literally the definition of chaos but in order to build something that can flourish people need peace and stability. 

Yet the only people who flourished for another 100 years or so were European empire builders.  Out of chaos, order.  Sometimes you need the chaos, before you can get to the order.  Besides I'm not sure what other "what end?" answer was needed at that point - there was the plan for Nassau and depending on who was available at the time, someone would run things there for which to both set an example for other places in the new world and run further battles in other places. Early on Eleanor was going to be part of that.  Near the end I believe the plan was for Madi and Silver to basically be the ones in charge of that part of it, they'd run Nassau.  I think Silver just simply didn't see what they saw.

[DarkRaichu]

3 minutes ago, tessathereaper said:

Yet the only people who flourished for another 100 years or so were European empire builders.  Out of chaos, order.  Sometimes you need the chaos, before you can get to the order.  Besides I'm not sure what other "what end?" answer was needed at that point - there was the plan for Nassau and depending on who was available at the time, someone would run things there for which to both set an example for other places in the new world and run further battles in other places. Early on Eleanor was going to be part of that.  Near the end I believe the plan was for Madi and Silver to basically be the ones in charge of that part of it, they'd run Nassau.  I think Silver just simply didn't see what they saw.

Nope.  The main thing that kept the European empires from collapsing through their long drawn out wars was the near unlimited resources from their colonies.

Out of chaos order, sure.  But chaos needs to end before order can begin.  Flint was chaos because he was not interested in stability and rebuilding.  To him there is always another British port to sack.   He would not hesitate to sacrifice whatever peace Nassau had if that would enable him to sack Boston or other English ports.

[tessathereaper]

Just now, Enero said:

Just curious, why would her choices be limited and thus she'd have to accept Silver? Once the war was over and Treaties signed she didn't need him for anything. She had a family, community and freedom right there on the island. In fact, she could've forced him to leave the island, took up with another man or just refused to give him the time of day again. She didn't have to seek him out on the cliffs, but I think she WANTED to. Madi was very strong willed and confident woman, I find it hard to believe that she would've just settled for Silver just because. 

 I think the fact that she did allow him to stay on the island meant, though angry and hurt over his betrayal, that she was not quite ready to cut him off completely. To me, this situation was no different than a betrayal in a real life relationship, you may be pissed and hurt at what the person did, even ask them to move out and take a break from the relationship, but you may eventually come to a point where you'd like to try again. 

I think this is where Madi was in that final scene. Was she ready to move Silver back into her hut? Make love to him? I doubt it, but she was IMHO ready move forward. Was the relationship perfect after that absolutely not. What marriage/long term relationship is, but I think based on the events of TI they were able to build from there a solid marriage. 

But this wasn't just a bad choice or a mistake, he made her choices for her, he planned on undermining her all along(or at least for weeks).  Her choices were somewhat limited, from her point of view, I don't mean they necessarily actually were.  She didn't want that deal they ended up with.  She was against it.  I think she she wanted to leave the islands(which as we know she was in England we know she did) and I'm not denying she still loved him, feelings don't tend to just "end" but even strong people can feel defeated and decide to stick it out with what they know and there isn't anything with trying to make it work, it doesn't mean it actually worked that well beyond the fact that she handled his finances.  She had seen a vision of what her life could be and now, there was no chance for it.  In a way, it died with Flint, literally or metaphorically:), and with everyone signing off on the new deal.  I think for her it may have been poor consolation.  

Silver ends up planning on killing the British on the Hispaniola to make away with thousands of British pounds.  John Silver in TI was charming and not without good qualities sure but underneath the charm was violence and rage - doesn't sound like someone who is satisfied with his lot in life really.   Someone who will kill anyone who stands in the way of him and what he wants and led his fellow mutineers into an ambush to save himself.  Yes he was charming and had a fondness for Jim Hawkins but otherwise it actually sounds like what Flint predicted would become of him actually happened, and it doesn't sound like he ended up being any better than Flint really.  

[tessathereaper]

7 minutes ago, DarkRaichu said:

Nope.  The main thing that kept the European empires from collapsing through their long drawn out wars was the near unlimited resources from their colonies.

Out of chaos order, sure.  But chaos needs to end before order can begin.  Flint was chaos because he was not interested in stability and rebuilding.  To him there is always another British port to sack.   He would not hesitate to sacrifice whatever peace Nassau had if that would enable him to sack Boston or other English ports.

Nope how? Who do you think was mostly responsible for getting them those "near unlimited resources".  Slaves.  The European empires built the new world on the backs of slaves who harvested those resources in various ways.   So yes as I see it, they flourished.

But the war hadn't even really started yet, how could the chaos end before they'd fought more than a few battles?  This was early days.  It's kind of expecting a lot to think anything was going to built yet.  Flint was willing to give Eleanor the treasure in order to get Nassau and the only reason to have Nassau was to have something to build upon.  

[Irlandesa]

5 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

Here's another question.  Do we think Madi really believed him?  Couldn't this be one of those situations where one person tells a lie to try to give the other a face-saving way to stay in the relationship and the other decides to "believe" the lie (knowing full well it's probably a lie) in order to preserve the relationship?  I think stuff like that goes on all the time in life. 
 

I think she was like many of us and didn't know for sure.  I think Jack laid it out for us when he was talking to Grandma Guthrie and talking about people believing the story they want to believe.  It doesn't just apply to Madi but anyone who sailed under Flint and knew him.  They were told he just retired.  I doubt many people believed that story but accepted it because believing the opposite--that he was likely killed--might call on their sense of loyalty for revenge.

I don't know if Madi believed him or just chose to hope he was telling the truth.  In one of the post-mortems of the series, the creators mention that (in their opinion) the framing of their last scene is indicative of where they will likely always be. They're in the same frame but there's still a lot of distance between them that may never been breached.  That was the sense that I had.  For love, she is willing to forgive LJS and forgive him, but their relationship is broken in a way that can't be repaired.  They will never be what they were before Skeleton Island. 

3 hours ago, henripootel said:

Smart guy like Silver knows the only way to keep a treasure safe is if only two people know about it, and one is dead.  The only genuinely safe thing to do is find the treasure and put it beyond reach, but to do that he'd have to find it.  Can't imagine why Silver left his and Madi's long-term safety basically to luck when there was no reason he had to.  And I think the only reason this plan worked was ... because the writers said so. 

The treasure is at its most dangerous right now.  Same with Flint.  But keep both out of commission long enough for treaties to be signed and the organization for war to fall apart?  Their danger decreases. 

There's something really interesting about their final scene together because both of them are projecting their own feelings onto the other.  Silver letting Flint live is largely based on Silver's belief in love. Because being with Madi is his everything, he's willing to gamble that being with Thomas will satisfy Flint enough that the penal colony* will be able to contain him.  Based on the fact that Flint is later said to have died in Savannah, perhaps that is true.  The way he dies makes it seem that he will face more sadness and tragedy but that's a story for another time.

Flint, on the other hand, tells LJS that love won't be enough...that he'll eventually want more.  TI kind of hints at that.  It's basically Flint's curse that comes true.

*As for the compassionate penal colony in GA, it probably didn't exist in real history but it's something that has been repeated so many times that it has become folklore history.  As such, I think I can believe it real in this show's universe.  People did survive their stints of indentured servitude, although Thomas looked awfully healthy and fresh for the length of time he must have been there. Flint had been a pirate about ten years when we met him.  So Thomas's stint was over a decade.  Would a compassionate penal colony mean a life sentence?

Aargh, I go back and forth about whether or not it was real. 

Edited April 4, 2017 by Irlandesa

[Enero]

1 hour ago, tessathereaper said:

 Her choices were somewhat limited, from her point of view, I don't mean they necessarily actually were.  She didn't want that deal they ended up with.  She was against it.  I think she she wanted to leave the islands(which as we know she was in England we know she did) and I'm not denying she still loved him, feelings don't tend to just "end" but even strong people can feel defeated and decide to stick it out with what they know and there isn't anything with trying to make it work, it doesn't mean it actually worked that well beyond the fact that she handled his finances.  She had seen a vision of what her life could be and now, there was no chance for it.  In a way, it died with Flint, literally or metaphorically:), and with everyone signing off on the new deal.  I think for her it may have been poor consolation.  

 

I totally get that she had a personal dream, that for a while died with Flint, but was perhaps reborn at some point considering where she and Silver ended up. However, this war and ultimately the Treaty was not about her personal dream but about freedom for her people. It seems that in her quest for war and being nearly consumed in the vortex that was Flint's darkness that she forgot the very thing she said to Silver when they first met, that as leader of her people she is the one that tends instead of being tended to; she must mind her people's future and thus make the hard decisions to ensure they are safe. Perhaps remembering this was one of many things that got her to forgive Silver (along with realizing that his actions pulled her back from the brink. That he was her tether as she'd previously offered to be his) and compelled her to move forward with him, realizing that her own personal desires began to out weigh what was best for her people. But I digress. :)

I don't think they were ever what they were. Silver's betrayal unfortunately destroyed the innocence and the infinite level of intimacy that had been their relationship. However, I'm choosing to believe that though they were never as close as they had been, they were able to make the relationship work and work well, that they did have happiness albeit bittersweet. :) 

Quote

Silver ends up planning on killing the British on the Hispaniola to make away with thousands of British pounds.  John Silver in TI was charming and not without good qualities sure but underneath the charm was violence and rage - doesn't sound like someone who is satisfied with his lot in life really.   Someone who will kill anyone who stands in the way of him and what he wants and led his fellow mutineers into an ambush to save himself.  Yes he was charming and had a fondness for Jim Hawkins but otherwise it actually sounds like what Flint predicted would become of him actually happened, and it doesn't sound like he ended up being any better than Flint really.  

Eh. In TI Silver clearly displayed duel sides of himself, which side surfaced depended heavily on the situation and what he was attempting to accomplish in that moment. I don't know if I'd say it's reflective of him being unsatisfied with his lot in life because we really don't have much insight into Silver's thoughts. TI was told from Jim's POV. So we have no idea what was going on inside Silver's head, what was driving his pursuit of the treasure. Of course we can assume that what Flint stated in the finale was in part the driver behind his actions but he could've very well had a different motive. 

Edited April 4, 2017 by Enero

[MaryMatts]

Quote

Man, I am really going to miss this show. But I am glad Flint and Thomas definitely, absolutely, no question, got their happy ending. Because they did.

Yup, absolutely.  It was the ending I wanted more than anything but thought I would never, ever get, lol!  James and Thomas were the most believable couple of all on BS for me.  Followed by Eleanor/Vane with the least believable being Madi/Silver.  I never liked the Madi character - she seemed cold and disagreeable to me and I never got what Silver saw in her (I was actually rooting for Billy to cut her throat, lol).  I think he deserved a whole lot better than her - he would have done better to hook up with beautiful, charming, witty and very clever Max.

[henripootel]

7 hours ago, Irlandesa said:

People did survive their stints of indentured servitude, although Thomas looked awfully healthy and fresh for the length of time he must have been there. Flint had been a pirate about ten years when we met him.  So Thomas's stint was over a decade.  Would a compassionate penal colony mean a life sentence?

Not for nothing, but indentured servitude was miles away from slavery and press-ganged penal colonies.  I have in my possession the pay-off schedule of an ancestor of mine who bought himself out in fairly record time (in New York sterling pounds) and it was far more a business contract, usually for passage to the new world.  Some were, I'm sure, mistreated and whatnot but indentured servants were not slaves, property subject purely to their master's whims.  Not sure of the legal status of a compassionate penal colony but I'm guessing that one of the features was that you weren't free to leave or even contact the outside world.  Given the state of malaria and yellow fever in the US around this time, I'm guessing long-term exposure was, in reality, not far from a death sentence. 

7 hours ago, Irlandesa said:

Aargh, I go back and forth about whether or not it was real. 

We were, of course, encouraged to, what with the rather dreamy-looking shots, a few improbably story elements, and the 'story we choose to believe' lines.  I think they gave us too enough latitude that we can finish the tale in whatever way pleases us, and I'm cool with that.  I just wish they'd provided a more plausible reason why Silver would think his telling of Flynt's fate would be believable to Silver.  Does he really think Flynt will be bound by love long enough for the treaty to settle in and the treasure itself to become somewhat moot?  Would everyone else stay away from the treasure because doing so guarantees the peace (another notion worth exploring, but whatever)?  Seems to me that season 1 Silver was far too much a rogue to believe such a thing, and season 4 Silver far too battered and cynical to believe such a thing.  Love didn't make Silver so blind that he refused to lie to Madi about something hugely important to her so it wasn't love, so what was it?

I'm left to wonder if I believe Silver would ever be so hopeful as to bet against the nature of pirates, and somehow I don't believe he would.  However you choose to frame the story you choose to believe, I think you have to respect the elements of human nature that ring truest, and the one that stays with me is 'treasure draws pirates like flies to shit'.  Everybody has their loves at the end and I liked that, but still ... treasure.  It seemed like the resolution had far less to do with love and hope and far more to do with 'we have to get everyone in place for Treasure Island even if it doesn't quite make sense'.  If Flynt isn't actually dead, I think he was kept alive by plot armor, which, cool, but I'm not sure it left me completely satisfied. 

Edited April 4, 2017 by henripootel

[FlowerofCarnage]

5 hours ago, MaryMatts said:

Yup, absolutely.  It was the ending I wanted more than anything but thought I would never, ever get, lol!  James and Thomas were the most believable couple of all on BS for me.  Followed by Eleanor/Vane with the least believable being Madi/Silver.  I never liked the Madi character - she seemed cold and disagreeable to me and I never got what Silver saw in her (I was actually rooting for Billy to cut her throat, lol).  I think he deserved a whole lot better than her - he would have done better to hook up with beautiful, charming, witty and very clever Max.

You do know that Max is a lesbian, right? 

[MaryMatts]

1 hour ago, FlowerofCarnage said:

You do know that Max is a lesbian, right? 

I thought she was bi sexual - didn't she have sex with Jack?  anyway, I was trying to find someone better for Silver.  The "Madi-is-the-love-of-my-life" arc was just not convincing for me - I didn't think the actors had much chemistry and I didn't like her character at all.  Her mother was much more convincing and regal to boot.

[Kathemy]

A perfect ending to an instant classic series.

[Ravenya003]

One thing I liked: that Anne got the last line. Given that she probably had the LEAST amount of dialogue in this show (especially compared to the endless monologues of Flint, Silver, Rackham and Max) she deserved it. 

Really interesting discussion regarding whether the Thomas/Flint reunion was real or not. I think there's plenty to support either scenario, and it simply comes down to what you want to believe. 

[DeadlyEuphoric]

17 hours ago, tessathereaper said:

But the war hadn't even really started yet, how could the chaos end before they'd fought more than a few battles?  This was early days.  It's kind of expecting a lot to think anything was going to built yet.  Flint was willing to give Eleanor the treasure in order to get Nassau and the only reason to have Nassau was to have something to build upon.  

 

I started rewatching the show and even from first episode, creating Nassau as a safe-heaven from "civilization" was always Flint's vision and plan. He was trying to build a life for himself there, free from yolk of others, their own fortress. I think with Miranda dead too, his rage made him lose sight of that vision from time to time, but it has always been there and an ulltimate goal of his. He is not all about chaos, even if he may appear to be to others. That doesn't mean he wasn't blinded by his own idealism and vision, it wasn't really something he was capable of achieving, however much he may wish it, others could see it, he did not. Which is why for others his "dream" is a nightmare, because the fighting will never stop, as he can never really achieve it...

 

As for Flint's end, even if Silver had a reason to lie to Madi about it, Jack didn't. Just the opposite, life would be much easier for Jack if he could honestly tell Mrs Guthrie that Flint was dead as per her orders. Jack's whole speech was one trying to make her see Flint didn't need to be dead to cease to be a problem, that him retiring was just as good and something that would benefit her. Otherwise all he needed to say was "Flint is dead, but to ensure he is not seen a martyr to the cause we have decided the official story is he is retired".

And Flint didn't just accept his fate. Silver mentions he didn't believe Silver's story of Thomas being alive and resisted it all the way, only to give up as they were near the shore, maybe because he was just physically exhausted by then, but maybe also because even letting himself have some hope of seeing Thomas finally has a calming effect. Actually, when they took him to the camp, he was in chains if I am not mistaken. He was brought there as a prisoner, against his own will. It ended up being a happy occasion for him, but till he saw Thomas I don't think he truly believed it himself.

 

Do I think Silver would kill Flint if he thought he was in the way of Madi and his happy ever after? I think he might, yes. But I think when he told Flint he either accepted his fate or he had other way to deal with it, it was more about giving Flint a chance to get out of this with less of an ego bruise and more integrity or not. They could part ways as friends and comrades and equals, coming to a mutual decision or they would part ways with Flint as Silver's prisoner being forced to do what he demanded (and of course in danger of his life, as crew was likely to harm him if he tried to escape...). Flint had the choice to make things easy for himself and Silver or not, and he chose the difficult way...

 

Don't think Silver really had to worry about Flint causing him problems later on. Even from the beginning of this show, Flint was shown as a brilliant tactician and a great captain with horrible relationship with his crew. He always needed someone else to mitigate things between himself and the crew and keep them in line and act as a buffer. Come the end of the series that person was Silver. The crew was no longer Flint's, it was Silver's crew now (and some of them were Jack's). When left at Savannah Flint has nothing left. He doesn't have a ship, doesn't have guns, money or a crew. Hard to wage a war in that situation. And I am sure Silver counted on Thomas actually being alive to act as a further incentive for Flint to not start waging a war again. With Thomas, Flint has something to lose. So, even if he did escape the prison with Thomas, not surprising that he wouldn't go back to "Flint" persona and  start pirating and wage war again. Silver once asked Flint if he'd give everything up for Thomas (when the Spanish was  attacking Nassua, though can't remember the exact wording. Flint didn't answer but his silence was answer enough. And Silver knows/believes from his own experience with Madi that Flint would opt for a happily ever after with Thomas.

 

What Flint had was Madi, her belief and support in him. The moment Silver separated those two, he won. Without Madi around, Flint had no one in his corner in that final confrontation with Silver. Jack and his men were already there to kill him. Silver's own crew wouldn't have a qualm about killing him (just hours ago they were trying to do just that). He still had Silver, in the sense Silver wanted to keep him alive (Jack's story of how it is better Flint is retired, as killing him would just create a martyr is very likely to be a speech Silver gave him tbh) but Silver also wanted an end to the cause and "Captain Flint". So Captain Flint was beaten and done. And without "Captain Flint", Madi doesn't have the general to lead her army and spearhead her fight. She is rather left on her own corner too... This is also why the treasure needed to remain buried. To ensure the fight wasn't happening, the treasure needed to be kept away from Madi, with her having no hopes of getting her hands on it to fund her war. With Flint taken out of the picture, she lost both.

Though I am pretty sure Silver had a hard time explaining to the crew the treasure needed to stay buried, I wouldn't be surprised that he could pull it. He has a special hold over them, they'll do anything he says, even when they know he is lying/wrong (like when he managed to have them all turn on Billy). Besides the men were pretty much worn off with all the fighting and the promise of an end to it, and Rogers being sent off and Nassau back in their control, the pirates probably were willing to just let the treasure be. It was never promised to them as personal fortune anyway, it was always seen as a means to fund the war.

 

ETA: Speaking of Jack's speech.... It was quite a nice way of the writers explaining the discrepancies between Treasure Island and how they left things. I think in a way, they are saying this is how it really went in their story and in their reality, and if things don't really seem to fit into how it sounds like in TI that is because stories get distorted.  We have seen it during that scene with the girl and Jack, she knew some of the stories about pirates right, and then some of the other stuff she heard were simply made up and extremely wrong. One never knows the actual reality... I am not saying they are claiming their story to be the "ultimate truth" I am just saying, as they are the storytellers, this is the truth in their story, and if it doesn't match with another version of the story, it is because that is a story told by another storyteller, neither version necessarily claiming to overlap perfectly or having superiority over the other or a better claim to the actual truth than the other... Maybe Thomas/Flint lived happily ever after in a prison camp, maybe they were miserable, maybe they escaped and made a new life for themselves under another name, maybe Thomas died and Flint drank himself to death.... Maybe Flint & Billy had an encounter years later which is when Flint gave him the map to the treasure for whatever reason. Maybe Billy found the treasure when marooned there, and later drew the map in hopes of one day returning to the island with a crew of his own and getting it. Gotta love all the possibilities and how everyone gets to pick and choose the version they like....

Edited April 5, 2017 by DeadlyEuphoric

[Neurochick]

19 hours ago, tessathereaper said:

Silver ends up planning on killing the British on the Hispaniola to make away with thousands of British pounds.  John Silver in TI was charming and not without good qualities sure but underneath the charm was violence and rage - doesn't sound like someone who is satisfied with his lot in life really.   Someone who will kill anyone who stands in the way of him and what he wants and led his fellow mutineers into an ambush to save himself.  Yes he was charming and had a fondness for Jim Hawkins but otherwise it actually sounds like what Flint predicted would become of him actually happened, and it doesn't sound like he ended up being any better than Flint really.  

And that's why I'll keep saying this, it wasn't a happy ending.  The show stopped at a certain point, before the shit hit the fan.  Flint told Silver about himself, he told Silver he'd never be happy living a domestic life; at the time Silver looked like he didn't believe him, but I agree, Flint was right.  

A good article about the finale.  Beware, some TI spoilers there.  

The show runners wanted to honor Treasure Island, and all that is said in that book about Flint.  I believe the ending because they took him to Savannah and in TI,

Spoiler

Flint died in Savannah, and for some reason Billy was there and got the treasure map from him.

[MaryMatts]

2 hours ago, Ravenya003 said:

Really interesting discussion regarding whether the Thomas/Flint reunion was real or not. I think there's plenty to support either scenario, and it simply comes down to what you want to believe. 

So this tweet from Toby Stephens:

Quote

in reply to @MariaRaziel

Apr 4TOBY STEPHENS‏ @TobyStephensInV

@MariaRaziel Yes. An open ending. Your choice.

https://mobile.twitter.com/TobyStephensInV/

So I guess we can say that's straight from the horse's mouth, eh? ?

I know which ending I'm going for as I've always rooted for Flint and Thomas 100%!  ??

 

(You know, i can just imagine the producers asking Rupert Penry-Jones to return to the show for the final scene:  "We need you to come back and make out with Toby again", lol!)

Edited April 5, 2017 by MaryMatts

[raven]

32 minutes ago, Neurochick said:

The show runners wanted to honor Treasure Island, and all that is said in that book about Flint.

I've read this also, and what is said in the book is a story told by Billy Bones.  Who knows if it were true or not? Maybe Billy lied (he hated Flint) maybe Billy garbled it, maybe Jim Hawkins did.  We're talking about fictional characters here, so having them fleshed out in Black Sails, we can apply that and decide what story may or not be true.

FWIW I think Flint was right.  I think eventually Silver would regret his decision.  Whether that would make a tragic ending for him I haven't decided.

We can work in what we know of the real life characters to judge their fates, but the fictional ones I think we have more personal leeway on.

I've watched it a couple of times and I am very happy with what we've got.  It leaves room for a lot of discussion and I may read TI now; even though I know the outline, the details will make for a good story.

Quote

(You know, i can just imagine the producers asking Rupert Penry-Jones to return to the show for the final scene:  "We need you to come back and make out with Toby again", lol!)

I would be saying what time?? day?? when?? LOL

[Neurochick]

17 minutes ago, MaryMatts said:

(You know, i can just imagine the producers asking Rupert Penry-Jones to return to the show for the final scene:  "We need you to come back and make out with Toby again", lol!)

LOL, isn't it true that they're great friends in real life?  

I think the Silver/Madi problem was more because we, the audience didn't see their relationship develop, the way we saw Thomas and Flint's relationship develop or Anne and Jack.  I knew Silver liked Madi but them lying in bed in the first episode this season seemed strange.  BTW, I was DAMN HAPPY to see a brown skinned woman cherished and loved, since that happens SO rarely on TV these days.

For me, the open ending was "was Thomas really there?"  I to me, Silver couldn't have killed Flint 

Spoiler

because Treasure Island can't happen if Flint doesn't design that map.  

Edited April 5, 2017 by Neurochick

[MaryMatts]

Quote

LOL, isn't it true that they're great friends in real life?

I don't know enough about them to answer that but I do know TS directed and produced a short film which starred RPJ and Anna Louise Plowman who is TS' wife (she played Mrs. Hudson in BS).

https://www.wearecolony.com/in-vitro/

BTW, I totally agree with your statement:

Spoiler

because Treasure Island can't happen if Flint doesn't design that map.  

Edited April 5, 2017 by MaryMatts

[tessathereaper]

1 hour ago, Neurochick said:

And that's why I'll keep saying this, it wasn't a happy ending.  The show stopped at a certain point, before the shit hit the fan.  Flint told Silver about himself, he told Silver he'd never be happy living a domestic life; at the time Silver looked like he didn't believe him, but I agree, Flint was right.  

A good article about the finale.  Beware, some TI spoilers there.  

The show runners wanted to honor Treasure Island, and all that is said in that book about Flint.  I believe the ending because they took him to Savannah and in TI,

  Hide contents

Flint died in Savannah, and for some reason Billy was there and got the treasure map from him.

Actually the use of Savannah confuses me, because Savannah wasn't founded until 1733.   I thought Black Sails was taking place around 1720 give or take a few years.  So why did the writers even use Savannah?  I'm not saying that has anything to do with whether Flint actually went there or not but just saying, in general, it's weird they used Savannah given there is at least a good decade or more until it even comes into existence.  

[spottedreptile]

1 hour ago, MaryMatts said:

So this tweet from Toby Stephens:

So I guess we can say that's straight from the horse's mouth, eh? ?

I know which ending I'm going for as I've always rooted for Flint and Thomas 100%! 

What I like about this open ending idea in this particular show, is that you can interpret it several ways, but each ending can be plausible. Far preferable to some shows, where you get some ridiculous plot finale which makes no sense and the writers then tell you "Oh we didn't explain this or that so you can imagine it any way you want!" All that means is they wrote themselves into a corner and couldn't get out of it. BSG I'm looking at you. 

I am happy with the ambivalence of Flint/Thomas, and also Silver and Billy.  As they say this story has been told by many different people, so it is dependent on individual narratives and Chinese whispers through its history, like any other historical tale. Billy could have been a very unreliable narrator to Hawkins, and then Hawkins could have invented his own story to suit himself, as well, etc ad infinitum. 

[tennisgurl]

So, I put watching this off WAY too long. Not because I thought it would suck or I didn't care to watch it, but because I didn't want it to end. I have really grown to love this show and its dysfunctional bunch of pirates and law breakers, and I'm just really sad to leave them all behind.

That being said, I thought this was a really great finale, and a wonderful way to close the series out. It had just the right amount of drama, character moments, actions, romance, and setting things up for Treasure Island. Personally, it doesn't matter to me that it didn't line up totally with what we heard happened at the end of Treasure Island. With all the talk in this episode, both from Flint and the last monologue from Jack, its just a story, not what really happened, within the reality of the show. Maybe Billy lied about Flint? Or maybe Hawkins lied or exaggerated to make a better story? Or maybe someone else lied, that's kind of the point. People are just stories in the end, and it just depends on the person as to how much that affects them. There was really a LOT about legacy and stories in this episode, and not just from a meta perspective, being the end of the show, and the set up for Treasure Island. We had Rogers being miserable at the prospect of not only being a shell of his former self, but also going down in history as a big loser, we had Jack and Anne meeting up with Mary Reed (I knew that's who it would be and I cheered when they said "his" name) and sailing off to their most famous stories, Flint going on about how he doesn't want to be the villain in this story, while Silver doesn't care anymore (ironically), and, finally, Silver telling the story of Flint and Thomas, and their happy ending. Was it real? Or was it a story spun by Silver? Its ambiguous here, but that's alright. Its a story, and we can see it however we want.

Personally, I'm just saying its all real. Yeah its contrived, far fetched, and its pretty weird how cool everyone there was with two dudes making out like crazy in front of everyone, but damn it, I wanted happy!

Maddi and Silver end up together! I figured that would happen (considering what we know from TI), but it was still great to see how much they love each other, even when Maddi is pissed off. And Maddi still gets to be her own, strong person, not just a Love Interest. Its really impressive that she was a hostage for quite a few episodes now, but has never seemed like a damsel or helpless. No matter what was going on, she was totally in control. We also got to have a sweet reunion between Jack and Anne, and the two of them sailing off with Mary Reed for continued adventures. I was so convinced that Jack was doomed, I was happy to see them back together at the end of the show. They've had their issues, but I always felt like they loved each other, and would always find their way back to each other. I know it wont end well, historically, but who knows. Maybe this version manages to finally get the Three Way Romance thing right, and sail off into the sunset.

Max got to end up on top! I have always rooted for Max, and I was thrilled to see her running things and getting shit done.

All in all, a really quality show with lots of great characters and acting. I wont say it was perfect, but I was very happy with everything we got here, and, yes, I'm really going to miss it.

[MaryMatts]

Quote

QUOTE

(You know, i can just imagine the producers asking Rupert Penry-Jones to return to the show for the final scene:  "We need you to come back and make out with Toby again", lol!)

I would be saying what time?? day?? when?? LOL

I'd add to that: "and I'll do it for free!"  ?

(I doubt RPJ would say that though, lol, no matter how friendly he is with TS...)

[Bort]

I moved some of the book vs. movie posts to the Compare and Contrast thread so as to not derail the episode topic.

[Scaeva]

I think the reunion with Flint and Thomas did happen, but that they don't get the happy ending that the dreamlike sequence implied. That part is just the story Silver wants to believe.

According to Treasure Island Flint dies sometime before the book's events in Savannah, so that lines up with the story Silver tells Madi in Black Sails. The book however says that Flint dies delirious, ravaged by alcoholism, his last words calling for an imaginary crew member to bring him more rum. 

I can't imagine Flint dying an alcoholic without that relationship coming to a tragic end. Maybe Thomas won't forgive him when he learns what happened to Miranda.

[Haleth]

I just finished binging this season. (Thanks, Comcast and Starz, for the freebie!). What a wonderful ending to an outstanding show. Loved, loved all the callbacks to the very first episode-- Silver threatening the cook, Jack looking for the perfect flag, etc.  Everyone got a satisfying ending-- for now.  Love that Featherstone and Idell (and of course Max) are left in charge.  Even Mrs Hudson got to go home to her children.  

The look Anne gave Jack about "Mark" was hilarious, like smh.  Anne saw who she was immediately.

The scene with Flint and Silver talking it out was brilliantly acted. Tore my heart out and made me hope they'd come to an agreement. I'd like to believe James was reunited with Thomas.  I'll attribute his TI fate to mourning the passing of Thomas after many happy years together.  

[DeadlyEuphoric]

I don't expect Miranda and what happened to her to be a problem between Thomas and Flint. Thomas knew Miranda, knew she was not just some weak woman who did whatever she was told, with no brains or will of her own. Miranda chose to stay with Flint. And Flint was in some way continuing to work on Thomas' work (of reforming pirates by creating a self-sustainable community) and Thomas is not one to take an issue with a person being idealistic and having visions of freedom...

 

Besides, Miranda died not because Flint dragged her to some dangerous adventure, she died on a trip she insisted on and planned, killed in the middle of "civilization", visiting an old friend and ally of Thomas' after bringing him his daughter safely back home, supposedly staying under his roof as his guest. And she was killed by one of his men, not because she was being threatening or anything, she was merely shouting at the man... She was killed simply because "civilization" cant seem to resist the urge to kill/get rid of those it deems as "others"... Thomas knows very well how conniving and brutal and ruthless and dangerous "civilization" can be.

 

If we are to go with TI and the story there as "ultimate truth", I think it still doesn't rule out the Thomas/Flint happy ending of Black Sails. It is possible Flint was reunited with Thomas, and they spent some time together happily. And then Thomas dies, and Flint is left all alone in the world, having to go through the agony of losing Thomas once more, with nothing to do really (no crew, money, ship, probably getting a bit too old, possibly having lost the old flame and belief of having the opportunity to change the world & by then piracy was no longer living its golden age). I can see him feeling very much worn out and beaten by life in general and turning into a sad alcoholic who has nothing but his old memories to hang onto now...

[Juliegirlj]

Table for one here: Terrible finale.... Silver killed Flint.  That silly fairy tale was just that-a story he made up to placate Madi. The premise that Silver and Flint were the only ones of their lot that made the decisions or had an opinion. These were Pirates!!! Happy endings weren't what they were about. 

Madi was way too smart and strong to fall for Silver's fairy tale. 

The long winded conversations became tedious, and made the two characters of Silver and Flint unlikeable. 

[Winter Rose]

I think I managed to be wrong about every opinion I ever had on how this show would end. I'm happy about it though. Flint was a walking tragedy, I thought he'd be teased with the possibility of seeing Thomas again and would either die before seeing him or Thomas would really turn out to be dead. So I'm thrilled they did actually get to reunite or, at the very least, are believed to. And I can believe Flint would've given up his war for Thomas. What one says they'd do, in a hypothetical situation, is often a lot different from what they do when the hypothetical becomes a reality.

Silver/Madi ended in an interesting place. It was obvious she wasn't going to be happy with what he did and I actually think if she had been able to be there for Silver's and Flint's arguments regarding Nassau and her, her thought processes would've been more in line with Flint's. But while it doesn't look like she and Silver have broken up, it doesn't look like they patched things up either.

Although I would've liked to see his humiliation play out more, I'm glad Rogers finally got what was coming to him. I remember when I had thought Eleanor was going to be his downfall and he ended up being hers. Although I wouldn't have minded if he got a similar ending as Teach.

I'm sure this is a highly unpopular opinion but I don't care for Billy, never have. I tried to convince myself to like him and I just couldn't. He let himself be completely blinded by his rage, when before he'd at least have kept a level head of the situation, that I took so much joy in him once again falling overboard because of Flint and washing up on shore with nothing.

I was so certain Jack and Anne were going to die, I thought the only ones who would make it would be the Treasure Island characters, so I can't even begin to say how happy I am that they're still here. That's probably my favorite thing about this episode. Them at sea, together, like it always should be... at least for a little while longer. And I'm glad of the inclusion of Mary Read, or at least as Mark Read.

Featherstone as governor? I love it. And Max to be the one running Nassau is so great too. I think there was probably still room to do a S5 and still lead up to this ending but all in all, it was a great episode and a wonderful ending. I never expected this show to have such a happy ending, and when this was more or less a lead in to Treasure Island, but it was a very pleasant surprise (although just to save face, I'm glad I hadn't been making any solid predictions).

[MaryMatts]

3 hours ago, Winter Rose said:

it was a great episode and a wonderful ending. I never expected this show to have such a happy ending, and when this was more or less a lead in to Treasure Island, but it was a very pleasant surprise

I totally agree with you.  I was scared to death of watching the last episode because I love this show so much and just didn't want most of them to die (even Woodes Rogers, lol).  So the general all round happy ending was a delightful surprise and even made up (somewhat) for the end of the series.  And no matter how much people say that Silver really killed Flint, I refuse to believe it because they really gave us a choice at the end and I choose to believe the happy ending!

[Tanya852]

I confess that I haven't read the discussions in this thread. Mostly because I don't have it in me to read alive Flint vs. dead Flint theories. :) But I still wanted to leave my little opinion.

I just wanted to say that James Flint is an icon. I'm forever grateful to "Black Sails" for giving us this character. So complex, with so much depth and humanity. His last two speeches, "Freedom in the dark" and "Distorted to fit into their narrative", perfectly encapsulate his entire character, his dreams and his struggles. And it's so, so meaningful to hear a queer character say those words.

The reunion was perfection. But I really hope they will break out of that place.

As for theories... This link is a really good read:

http://uniwolfwerecorn.tumblr.com/post/159308610775/black-sails-the-finale-and-everything

Edited April 9, 2017 by Tanya852

[Ottis]

I think I have moved from believing Silvers killed Flint to thinking Flint ended up with Thomas. And for a single reason... Silvers' tale showed Flint arriving at the island prison in shackles. That seems an unlikely detail for Silvers to make up. Why bother? Why not show Flint moving freely?