S07.E16: The First Day of the Rest of Your Life

[Macbeth]

2 hours ago, smorbie said:

Rick's embrace of the heapsters had to do with his belief that he lived in a binary world.  He thought everyone was either a savior or a victim of them.  He had just come from meeting with two groups of the latter, so he thought, in his desperation, that any group not affiliated with Negan was a good group.  It was perhaps naive, and you can argue that he shouldn't be so naive at this point in the game.

Actually I believe that the GPK are victims.  As someone mentioned it looks like Negan has a number of their people, and they betrayed Rick to get some of their people back. 

I don't know what they are going to do going forward.  I doubt Negan will give back the peeps as he is about to go to war,  Thanks to Rick the GPKs are armed but not a large enough group to take on the Saviors by themselves.

And again they like Negan with his Plan B - The GBKs did have an escape plan with the smoke bombs.

Rick so sucks as a leader.  His back up plan was to have Maggie not help in case it all goes wrong - at least she and her group would not be sacrificed. 

Edited April 5, 2017 by Macbeth

[smorbie]

34 minutes ago, Macbeth said:

Actually I believe that the GPK are victims.  As someone mentioned it looks like Negan has a number of their people, and they betrayed Rick to get some of their people back. 

I don't know what they are going to do going forward.  I doubt Negan will give back the peeps as he is about to go to war,  Thanks to Rick the GPKs are armed but not a large enough group to take on the Saviors by themselves.

And again they like Negan with his Plan B - The GBKs did have an escape plan with the smoke bombs.

Rick so sucks as a leader.  His back up plan was to have Maggie not help in case it all goes wrong - at least she and her group would not be sacrificed. 

In fairness to Rick, he's not a military leader.  He wasn't even a sheriff; he was just a deputy.  So, he probably didn't do a lot of planning.  Shane wasn't really a planner, either.  Some people just aren't.

I can't even play chess.  To quote the most brilliant of all movies, "I have no head for strategy".  And neither, it seems, does he.  I was kind of impressed he managed to plan to the extent he did.

Carol's the strategist among them, imo.

Leadership was thrust upon Rick, something I never quite understood.  Nevertheless, he's done the best he can.  Lacking a "man in black" to help him, and having no Miracle Max or holocaust cloak, he just pushes through.  He makes a lot of mistakes, but he does he best.

And, yes, it does sound like some of the heapsters are being held hostage.  Unfortunately, I hate Jar Jar and the trash people so much that I don't have the proper sympathy.  Maybe next season I'll work some up, but not now.

7 hours ago, Nashville said:

One thought which crossed my mind: blowing 95% of the CGI budget on Shiva is why the rest of the CGI has been so bad.

But she is beautifully done, isn't she?  She's so real.

[LadyMustang65]

13 hours ago, raven said:

and he brings the cobbler!

***

Oh, and I never worry about who's watching Judith :D

Yes, he does.  How could I forget the cobbler?  <lol>  I don't worry about Judith either.  I know that probably annoys some viewers, but I love the fact that there is always someone watching out for Judith.  She is Rick's daughter, but everyone - men and women - feels protective of her, so she will always be safe.  And they do it as much for her as they do for Rick.  Knowing that he doesn't have to worry about Judith's safety makes him able to function as the leader.  Plus I always assume that there has been *some* communication somewhere along the line so that Rick knows where she is and who is with her.  But I don't need to see 17 interactions per episode of "hey, Rick, Enid's watching Judith at Hilltop" "hey, Rick, she's still at Hilltop but Jesus is with her" etc. etc. etc.  And I expect when Maggie's baby is born, he or she will also be well taken care of by the group.

13 hours ago, AngelaHunter said:

Really, I'm not that demanding when it comes to my TeeVee entertainment but when I saw the bicycles and the garbage truck, I rose from my stupor long enough to think, "What da fuq??"

Another case of different strokes, I guess.  To me it makes perfect sense that by this point in time they are reduced to whatever they can find.  Heck, earlier they were driving around in a fire truck.  Why not garbage trucks?  They live in a garbage dump!  Seemed perfectly appropriate to me.  Likewise the bicycles.  I'm actually surprised more people don't ride bikes.  No worries about running out of or having to find gas.  And you could get moving fast enough to get away from a herd.  Seems quite practical to me in a ZA.  Likewise the horses.  Gather up whatever ones haven't been eaten by walkers and use them.  :)

[LadyMustang65]

12 hours ago, Dodginblue said:

I posted my theory earlier in this thread that it's a put on.  They've adopted this way of talking deliberately, it's not that they couldn't speak regular American English, or something close to it, they choose not to.  Which it's my theory so I like it but I also think I could see a group coming together and looking for ways to bond, a sort of tribal identification.  We are This, everyone else is Other.  It's the only way I can stand to watch them and not become really annoyed, by seeing it as something that from an anthropological standpoint could actually happen.

I think you've hit on something.  I too have always assumed it was a put-on.  I just wasn't sure whether it was done for the benefit of strangers to get them to underestimate them and they talked normally amongst themselves or whether it was an affectation they'd adopted as part of a group identity.  It makes no sense otherwise.  As you say, you don't forget how to speak proper English in just a couple of years.

11 hours ago, maystone said:

I posted something similar when they were first introduced. I truly believe this is a group that existed before the ZA hit (at least the core members), and they'd created this in-group communication style to set themselves apart like any good little cult would.

That is an interesting idea.  I would never have thought of it, but it's an intriguing concept.  :)

[LadyMustang65]

2 hours ago, Macbeth said:

Actually I believe that the GPK are victims.  As someone mentioned it looks like Negan has a number of their people, and they betrayed Rick to get some of their people back. 

I've seen several people say this, and it's interesting to me.  It also makes sense.  My mind had gone down a different road.  I was thinking that the GPK were more like Negan's group than Rick's group in that many of their members were not there of their own volition but had been grabbed, like Gabriel had been, in order to benefit the GPK group.  More bodies is more people looking for food and supplies and more people to fight.  Because they're not as psychopathic as Negan, people stay once they're there because it beats the alternative of being out on your own.  So when they were talking about 12 or 10, I made the assumption they were talking about splitting up the people in Alexandria - that the GPK were supposed to get 12 people but Negan reneged and said 10.  But that they were getting back members of their own group makes probably more sense.  It also explains how Negan knew what they were planning - Jadis would have told him when working out her deal. 

[ganesh]

I meant give Sasha the knife so she can jump out and kill Negan. In the ensuing chaos, no one is really found to think about how she got it for a while. 

But no, kill yourself and hope your zombie avatar can bite Negan. Makes total sense. 

I can partially concede Rick isn't a strategist. I think by now he should be, but whatever. What I find dumb is that no one really has been much either. The closest they came to a plan was the zombie pit, and that was ridiculous. 

[smorbie]

32 minutes ago, LadyMustang65 said:

Yes, he does.  How could I forget the cobbler?  <lol>  I don't worry about Judith either.  I know that probably annoys some viewers, but I love the fact that there is always someone watching out for Judith.  She is Rick's daughter, but everyone - men and women - feels protective of her, so she will always be safe.  And they do it as much for her as they do for Rick.  Knowing that he doesn't have to worry about Judith's safety makes him able to function as the leader.  Plus I always assume that there has been *some* communication somewhere along the line so that Rick knows where she is and who is with her.  But I don't need to see 17 interactions per episode of "hey, Rick, Enid's watching Judith at Hilltop" "hey, Rick, she's still at Hilltop but Jesus is with her" etc. etc. etc.  And I expect when Maggie's baby is born, he or she will also be well taken care of by the group.

Another case of different strokes, I guess.  To me it makes perfect sense that by this point in time they are reduced to whatever they can find.  Heck, earlier they were driving around in a fire truck.  Why not garbage trucks?  They live in a garbage dump!  Seemed perfectly appropriate to me.  Likewise the bicycles.  I'm actually surprised more people don't ride bikes.  No worries about running out of or having to find gas.  And you could get moving fast enough to get away from a herd.  Seems quite practical to me in a ZA.  Likewise the horses.  Gather up whatever ones haven't been eaten by walkers and use them.  :)

Some people need to know where Judith is EVERY SINGLE MOMENT of the show and if they aren't explicitly told who is looking out for her, they assume she's on her own somewhere.  You know this isn't a documentary.  Life's minutia happens off screen.  I assure you, they eat, they go to the bathroom (don't laugh, I've seen threads on other sites devoted to that subject), they don't get pregnant because contraceptives were probably not a hugely looted item in the beginning, so they can take precautions if they don't want to "make pancakes".  (another thread)

[nodorothyparker]

13 hours ago, raven said:

They haven't known what do with Daryl for a while now.  It's too bad because he was fun and snarky when he was introduced.  Even as he got a little maudlin after Merle's death he was still OK - he cared about others, he and Rick had the brotherly bond.  Now he just glowers and grunts. 

Daryl was so popular out of the gate those first couple of seasons because he was snarky and extremely competent when most of the rest of the crew was running around like chickens with their heads cut off who didn't die the first night of the ZA seemingly on sheer dumb luck.  Remember that the whole where's Sophia story kicked off season 2 because Rick couldn't handle two walkers by himself and had to leave her alone.  But somewhere in seasons 3 and 4 everybody became a super competent badass capable of cracking the occasional one liner.  So what hook did that leave Daryl?  That seems to be when the show cranked up the endless rinse and repeat of Daryl loses someone/something and then broods like a broody emo about it for half of each season for lack of anything else to do.  It also happened to coincide with Daryl finding a truckload of Miss Clariol moody black and deciding that bathing and basic hygiene would be inauthentic just for him on a zombie survival show.

[smorbie]

Also, sorry don't know how to edit, please bear with me, some of the same people complaining about the horses and bicycles would also be complaining about the availability of cars and gasoline since it's been close to two years since the world ended.  Some people look for things to complain about it.

Also, upthread someone mentioned the difficulty of judging the passage of time.  I agree.  For example from the first episode to the fifth, only three days had passed.  But it seemed like more because we spent those days with Daryl, Maggie, Tara, and Carol and time passed there, too.  I think the show should adopt a dating system.  At the first of each episode they should flash a caption of how many days have passed since the apocalypse and how many days have passed since we last saw the Scooby gang.

For example, the second episode of the season, which I think featured Carol and Morgan should have had a caption reading, "Eighteen months AZA, and under that one reading, "meanwhile" to let us know that while Negan was murdering Glen and Abraham, Carola nd Morgan were finding a new home.

[LadyMustang65]

I love Daryl - still do - but I agree they don't seem to know what to do with him.  I was so psyched when they first got to Alexandria, and he seemed to bond with Aaron.  I was looking forward to really exciting adventures for the two of them.  But either the writers weren't as excited about that as I was or they just didn't know how to execute it, so they seemed to just give it up.  I did love Daryl refusing to become Negan.  Unlike Eugene, Daryl isn't about making things comfortable for himself.  Daryl, like Rick, wasn't going to bow before Negan.  I am hoping that next season we will see Daryl, Rick, Aaron and Carol become a fighting force to be reckoned with. 

[smorbie]

22 hours ago, smorbie said:

Mr. Robot, Better Call Saul, and The Americans.

You?

Or, it could be because their conversational skills are not up to par with the rest of the worlds.  Maybe Judith should have been called in to interpret.

BTW, how does that "we take, don't bother" jibe with the fact that they "took" Gabriel, at gunpoint, no less.  That's kind of bothersome, isn't it?

I have no idea why I seem to be replying to myself. That wasn't the message I clicked to respond to.

[smorbie]

17 minutes ago, nodorothyparker said:

Daryl was so popular out of the gate those first couple of seasons because he was snarky and extremely competent when most of the rest of the crew was running around like chickens with their heads cut off who didn't die the first night of the ZA seemingly on sheer dumb luck.  Remember that the whole where's Sophia story kicked off season 2 because Rick couldn't handle two walkers by himself and had to leave her alone.  But somewhere in seasons 3 and 4 everybody became a super competent badass capable of cracking the occasional one liner.  So what hook did that leave Daryl?  That seems to be when the show cranked up the endless rinse and repeat of Daryl loses someone/something and then broods like a broody emo about it for half of each season for lack of anything else to do.  It also happened to coincide with Daryl finding a truckload of Miss Clariol moody black and deciding that bathing and basic hygiene would be inauthentic just for him on a zombie survival show.

Being from Georgia, I'm always a little insulted about Daryl's hygiene.  You know we DO bathe down here, right?  I understand Rick is southern and he keeps himself as clean as possible, but no one else seems to have a southern accent so I don't know where they're from.  Well, Maggie has one, I guess.

I don't question the moodiness.  He's like Michonne in the beginning; he's shut down from PTSD.  It started when he lost Beth, probably really since the day before when Merle died.  He doesn't have good communication skills and he doesn't verbally share his feelings, so he's holding all that pain inside.  It's why he went ballistic and ran after Dwight when Denise died. It's why he jumped at Negan when the monster killed Abraham.  It's why he beat Fat Joey to death.  

He's hurting and he can't let it out  On top of that he doesn't have a moment to just decompress.  Every day brings new and more horrific events.  

Honestly, how all these people are still alive and not stark raving mad just boggles my mind.

[AngelaHunter]

13 hours ago, raven said:

JDM is a good looking guy, they could have gone with charming, persuasive and deadly.

They could have, but "subtle" is a not a word in the vocabulary of anyone working on these scripts. They don't seem to get that having Negan give 15 minute monologues before he ever does anything just completely deflates tension, fear or suspense to the point where I think, "Oh, just kill someone!" and don't even care who anymore.

[LadyMustang65]

35 minutes ago, smorbie said:

Also, upthread someone mentioned the difficulty of judging the passage of time.  I agree.  For example from the first episode to the fifth, only three days had passed.  But it seemed like more because we spent those days with Daryl, Maggie, Tara, and Carol and time passed there, too.  I think the show should adopt a dating system.  At the first of each episode they should flash a caption of how many days have passed since the apocalypse and how many days have passed since we last saw the Scooby gang.

For example, the second episode of the season, which I think featured Carol and Morgan should have had a caption reading, "Eighteen months AZA, and under that one reading, "meanwhile" to let us know that while Negan was murdering Glen and Abraham, Carola nd Morgan were finding a new home.

I LOVE this idea.  That would be incredibly helpful.  I never know how long it's been between events or which ones are happening simultaneously.

[smorbie]

7 minutes ago, AngelaHunter said:

They could have, but "subtle" is a not a word in the vocabulary of anyone working on these scripts. They don't seem to get that having Negan give 15 minute monologues before he ever does anything just completely deflates tension, fear or suspense to the point where I think, "Oh, just kill someone!" and don't even care who anymore.

true.  

[smorbie]

6 minutes ago, LadyMustang65 said:

I LOVE this idea.  That would be incredibly helpful.  I never know how long it's been between events or which ones are happening simultaneously.

Thank you.  I crank out a good one now and then. :)

[Ohwell]

43 minutes ago, smorbie said:

Some people look for things to complain about it.

As is our right to do so! : )

[smorbie]

lol.

[nodorothyparker]

Daryl's the only character who got filthier and greasier looking AFTER they settled into a place that gave them access to daily showers.  At this point, I have to assume it's a choice on the actor's part to look like that.

I've said many times that all of these characters should be insane after the things they've seen and had to do to make it this far.  It's why I tend to cut them a fair amount of slack when they don't behave how we think they ought to and some are screaming off with their heads.  All of the long timers have gone around that wheel a few times now. (Many of Rick's stories seem built around where he is on his personal sliding scale of sanity in any given week.)  Daryl seemed to be stuck in the same pattern for about three seasons.  As largely unpopular as the story has been, at least his misadventures with Discount Wannabe Daryl have given him something of a break from the endless repeating cycle of lose somebody, act out, and brood.

[smorbie]

There is no time limit to PTSD.  For many it's a lifelong struggle.

It is an endless reliving of the trauma, over and over, each time the feelings just as fresh and powerful as they were the first time.

I'm not defending the hygiene.  I get that it's a stylistic choice by the writers and other PTB.  I'm just saying as a Georgian I'm insulted.  On the plus side, at least we don't have smell-o-vision, right?  Between him and the heapsters we would have an odiferous experience

[LadyMustang65]

11 minutes ago, smorbie said:

Being from Georgia, I'm always a little insulted about Daryl's hygiene.  You know we DO bathe down here, right?  I understand Rick is southern and he keeps himself as clean as possible, but no one else seems to have a southern accent so I don't know where they're from.  Well, Maggie has one, I guess.

I don't question the moodiness.  He's like Michonne in the beginning; he's shut down from PTSD.  It started when he lost Beth, probably really since the day before when Merle died.  He doesn't have good communication skills and he doesn't verbally share his feelings, so he's holding all that pain inside.  It's why he went ballistic and ran after Dwight when Denise died. It's why he jumped at Negan when the monster killed Abraham.  It's why he beat Fat Joey to death.  

He's hurting and he can't let it out  On top of that he doesn't have a moment to just decompress.  Every day brings new and more horrific events.  

Honestly, how all these people are still alive and not stark raving mad just boggles my mind.

I'm only bothered by Daryl's hygiene because I think he's a good-looking, sexy guy but not with that greasy, stringy hair.  That's just yuck.  <lol>  That's an excellent analysis, I think, of Daryl.  Thank you.  I think sometimes we tend to forget that he did not have much of a childhood, and it seemed like Merle pretty much raised him.  That wasn't exactly a family situation conducive to either trusting outsiders or talking about (much less actually showing) your feelings.  He was pretty well armored and closed off when we first met him.  He's had to deal with first his brother being chained to a rooftop and left to die by Zombie attack, knowing his brother got off the roof but not knowing whether he was alive or dead, re-uniting with his brother to not only see his brother turn but have to kill him himself.  Then he gets close to Carol and briefly thought she'd died and then she left.  And it seemed like he was beginning a friendship with Deise, and she died.  And so on.  That's not to say that others have also not been through as much or maybe even worse, but they were all more well-adjusted to start with.  Maybe one of the communities they come across at some point will have a therapist.  You're right - they all need one.

[JackONeill]

1 hour ago, nodorothyparker said:

Daryl was so popular out of the gate those first couple of seasons because he was snarky and extremely competent when most of the rest of the crew was running around like chickens with their heads cut off who didn't die the first night of the ZA seemingly on sheer dumb luck.  Remember that the whole where's Sophia story kicked off season 2 because Rick couldn't handle two walkers by himself and had to leave her alone.  But somewhere in seasons 3 and 4 everybody became a super competent badass capable of cracking the occasional one liner.  So what hook did that leave Daryl?  That seems to be when the show cranked up the endless rinse and repeat of Daryl loses someone/something and then broods like a broody emo about it for half of each season for lack of anything else to do.  It also happened to coincide with Daryl finding a truckload of Miss Clariol moody black and deciding that bathing and basic hygiene would be inauthentic just for him on a zombie survival show.

Remember when they took the prison. Rick asked Carol to take the rifle and climb the tower. He wanted her to be the sniper and to cover their back. After saying she wasn't a good shot, she grudgingly accepted. In the melee that ensued, she probably made more misses than hits, including just barely missing Rick (which allowed for the single funniest line of the whole series. She looked down at Rick and called out in sort of a sing-song voice, "Sorry!"

THAT'S the show I miss. There was so much in the one little scene. Character building, having trust, knowing you're not perfect but trying anyway.

Now, all of them, with the exception of Eugene, make Rambo look like a wuss.

Edited April 5, 2017 by JackONeill

[AngelaHunter]

25 minutes ago, JackONeill said:

she probably made more misses than hits, including just barely missing Rick (which allowed for the single funniest line of the whole series. She looked down at Rick and called out in sort of a sing-song voice, "Sorry!"

THAT'S the show I miss. There was so much in the one little scene. Character building, having trust, knowing you're not perfect but trying anyway.

And it had humor too, something it's sadly lacking now, well - except for unintentional humor. TPTB seem to think that their great art, in order to remain great, must be deadly serious and humorless at all times.

[Dodginblue]

1 hour ago, Ohwell said:

As is our right to do so! : )

Exactly.  It's not complaining to comment, criticize, compare and contrast.   We don't turn into zombies just because we're watching a show that has zombies in it.

[nodorothyparker]

17 minutes ago, AngelaHunter said:

And it had humor too, something it's sadly lacking now, well - except for unintentional humor. TPTB seem to think that their great art, in order to remain great, must be deadly serious and humorless at all times.

Having an asshole come after you with a tank and then nearly being eaten by cannibals in short order will kill your sense of humor, I guess.  

Still, one of my favorite lines comes after that in Consumed.  Interestingly, it's Daryl, who upon seeing a whole corridor full of walkers wriggling around trapped in sleeping bags turns to Carol and says "Some days I just don't know what the hell to think anymore."  It was so wonderfully self aware, both about the ridiculousness of what they were seeing and everything that had come before that point.

[smorbie]

57 minutes ago, JackONeill said:

Remember when they took the prison. Rick asked Carol to take the rifle and climb the tower. He wanted her to be the sniper and to cover their back. After saying she wasn't a good shot, she grudgingly accepted. In the melee that ensued, she probably made more misses than hits, including just barely missing Rick (which allowed for the single funniest line of the whole series. She looked down at Rick and called out in sort of a sing-song voice, "Sorry!"

THAT'S the show I miss. There was so much in the one little scene. Character building, having trust, knowing you're not perfect but trying anyway.

Now, all of them, with the exception of Eugene, make Rambo look like a wuss.

I take your point.  But that's kind of their life, isn't it?  Only the strong survive.  If you are alone on a deserted island, you gotta get good at fishing.  Rick and the others couldn't be amateurs forever.  They had to become proficient at killing walkers and other humans.

[LadyArcadia]

It just occurred to me that many of us are saying Rick should have just killed Eugene for his betrayal (I thought the same. In fact, I shouted "Shoot the bastard!").

Yet, that's precisely what Negan does and part of what makes him a "villain".  He kills people who double-cross him and don't follow his orders.  Hmmm...  Different perspective, I guess.

[JackONeill]

2 minutes ago, smorbie said:

I take your point.  But that's kind of their life, isn't it?  Only the strong survive.  If you are alone on a deserted island, you gotta get good at fishing.  Rick and the others couldn't be amateurs forever.  They had to become proficient at killing walkers and other humans.

Your point is true, too. It it weren't true, there'd be a whole lot fewer people walking around on this show. But the bigger point is that in the first few seasons there was more about characterization. (And I feel silly even discussing this because TWD has NEVER been thought of as Masterpiece Theater.) Getting to know a character is more interesting than seeing, well, Rambo on screen for the full two-hours. Rambo is an archetype. After the first movie, there was no need for growth. He was an action figure. I'm no fan of that, but I have no problem with that. (I liked cowboy movies and the same could be said for the early Eastwood movies.)

I like seeing character growth. Even in TWD, even in all the sameness, there were times when they'd run into something that was a little bit different and it posed a challenge which caused them to think. As much as she was nearly universally hated, I liked Beth because she added something that wasn't in abundance on the show--a certain naivety. She was a counterpoint. As was Hershcel, and Dale, and Glenn, at least before Glenn became afflicted with the super power of being able to escape the mightiest of Walkers! (But, alas, not a bat.)

2 minutes ago, LadyArcadia said:

It just occurred to me that many of us are saying Rick should have just killed Eugene for his betrayal (I thought the same. In fact, I shouted "Shoot the bastard!").

Yet, that's precisely what Negan does and part of what makes him a "villain".  He kills people who double-cross him and don't follow his orders.  Hmmm...  Different perspective, I guess.

And yet, Negan is letting Eugene and Dwight live. And I think Negan suspects them of betraying him. So, now, he's showing an abundance of caution that may come back and kill him in the end. (Assuming Kirkman can let Negan die.)

[Lady Iris]

5 minutes ago, JackONeill said:

She was a counterpoint. As was Hershcel, and Dale, and Glenn, at least before Glenn became afflicted with the super power of being able to escape the mightiest of Walkers! (But, alas, not a bat.)

Still too soon :(

[nodorothyparker]

10 minutes ago, LadyArcadia said:

It just occurred to me that many of us are saying Rick should have just killed Eugene for his betrayal (I thought the same. In fact, I shouted "Shoot the bastard!").

Yet, that's precisely what Negan does and part of what makes him a "villain".  He kills people who double-cross him and don't follow his orders.  Hmmm...  Different perspective, I guess.

I didn't really have any feeling either way about the prospect of Rick taking out Eugene.  I actually find the character pretty interesting on a show where it seems like everybody wants to be self-sacrificing super heroes and his story line one of the few things in the whole Negan mess that doesn't feel like an over the top cartoon.  Not everybody is brave and I imagine there would be a fair number of people who would shove their feelings down and back whichever horse they thought could keep them safe.  But I could also see Rick feeling pretty justified at the point had he gone there.

The show has been toying with the idea of what makes someone a hero vs. a villain being largely a matter of perspective for at least a couple of seasons now as Rick and crew have gotten progressively darker.  Sometimes it's worked and been pretty thought provoking and sometimes it just hasn't.

[AngelaHunter]

1 hour ago, nodorothyparker said:

 Interestingly, it's Daryl, who upon seeing a whole corridor full of walkers wriggling around trapped in sleeping bags turns to Carol and says "Some days I just don't know what the hell to think anymore."  It was so wonderfully self aware, both about the ridiculousness of what they were seeing and everything that had come before that point.

Exactly. I'm not saying everyone has to go around cracking jokes and spitting out sit-com style one-liners, but humour doesn't have to be in such an obvious form. Daily situations and occurances in life itself are often ridiculous.

1 hour ago, nodorothyparker said:

Having an asshole come after you with a tank and then nearly being eaten by cannibals in short order will kill your sense of humor, I guess.

"Dexter", a show about gruesome murders and a serial killer, had many howlingly funny "black humour" moments, as did "Six Feet Under" - a show centered around death and dying. A show dealing with serious subjects needn't and shouldn't be unrelentingly grim. That makes it exhausting to watch.

Edited April 5, 2017 by AngelaHunter

[DonitsYum]

17 hours ago, smorbie said:

As for Negan's story line, I hate him, too.  I hated him before he came on, but I watch because I'm interested in the people and how they are going to survive this.

And I'm afraid we're in for a long haul, here.  Kirkman LOVES Negan.  From  my understanding (I don't read the comics), he's here to stay.  And I mean forever.  

Then it must be the actor who plays him because this character to me is as one-note and boring as it gets.  Maybe if they had introduced him at the halfway point of last season (and replaced that AWFUL Glenn under the dumpster crap) with a mid-season cliffhanger bat swing, we would have had more of an opportunity to appreciate him.  Instead, it was "OMG Negan will appear soon"  "Almost time for Negan" and the worst:  "Who will Negan kill?"...massive ramp up then that SPEECH then THUNK. THUNK..  Right after....6 months off from Negan.   Huh?  I spent the whole time off pissed that they didn't reveal who got plunked as opposed to "Wow.  That's tragic and powerful.  This character is a badass."

[nodorothyparker]

7 hours ago, AngelaHunter said:

Exactly. I'm not saying everyone has to go around cracking jokes and spitting out sit-com style one-liners, but humour doesn't have to be in such an obvious form. Daily situations and occurances in life itself are often ridiculous.

"Dexter", a show about gruesome murders and a serial killer, had many howlingly funny "black humour" moments, as did "Six Feet Under" - a show centered around death and dying. A show dealing with serious subjects needn't and shouldn't be unrelentingly grim. That makes it exhausting to watch.

I think that's at least part of why I've latched so hard onto the Kingdom this season.  Yes, two of my favorite characters ended up there.  And Ezekiel and Shiva are pretty.  But even at its silliest, like when they're carrying their own heraldry into battle against Negan (which, really?), at least they're not so unrelentingly grim and humorless as the rest of the show seems to have gotten.  

[smorbie]

I think I would have hated him no matter what because I was sick unto death of hearing about him two years before he ever showed up.  On one of my old forums it was almost all they discussed.  "Is this when Negan shows up"?  "When's HE coming"?  It got nauseating.

When they had the first encounter with the motorcycle group on the road, I thought maybe that was it.  But then someone on the forum had another cow over his imminent arrival.  I said something about how I disappointed I was that it wasn't over.  And that started a little war, well more like a firing squad with me as the target.

30 minutes ago, AngelaHunter said:

Exactly. I'm not saying everyone has to go around cracking jokes and spitting out sit-com style one-liners, but humour doesn't have to be in such an obvious form. Daily situations and occurances in life itself are often ridiculous.

"Dexter", a show about gruesome murders and a serial killer, had many howlingly funny "black humour" moments, as did "Six Feet Under" - a show centered around death and dying. A show dealing with serious subjects needn't and shouldn't be unrelentingly grim. That makes it exhausting to watch.

I imagine theirs is a pretty exhausting existence, though, don't you?

I get what you're saying, and I've enjoyed the sprinkle of levity in the later half of the season.  But this isn't Sean of the Dead or Z Nation.  The story is being told as a serious one, and that's how they are playing it.  

[ChipBach]

If I remember the sequence properly, when the shit started, Dwight was armed and standing behind Negan.  If he was all about killing Negan, why not simply pop him right then and there?  It would have caused some serious leadership issues during the battle (or may have ended the battle)...  

[Ohwell]

1 hour ago, AngelaHunter said:

"Dexter", a show about gruesome murders and a serial killer, had many howlingly funny "black humour" moments, as did "Six Feet Under" - a show centered around death and dying. A show dealing with serious subjects needn't and shouldn't be unrelentingly grim. That makes it exhausting to watch.

And there's "Z-Nation," which also has zombies but at times can be funny as hell.

Seriously though, if they can be relaxed enough to have sex, it does seem that there could be more humor among the characters dispersed among some of the episodes.

Edited April 5, 2017 by Ohwell

[Johnny Dollar]

My problem with the GPK riding around in garbage trucks, other than the sheer ridiculousness of it all, is more practical. They probably get about 2 miles per gallon. Since my Google device tells me that Northern Virginia hasn't had open landfills similar to GPK City since the 1980's, they probably had to travel fifty miles to get to Alexandria, using 25 gallons of gas for the trip. Using the scientifically proven theorem that's taught at all of the best engineering schools of 20 GPK per Truck, their FU/GPKT (Fuel Used per Garbage Pail Kid Transported) would be a shockingly inefficient 1.25. Any run of the mill, family sized sedan, like your five passenger Honda Accord or your Toyota Camry, could easily achieve an FU/GPKT of a mere .40, which could be reduced further to a minuscule .25 if the Kids in the back seat are willing to double up. And this assumes the stop-and-go city driving conditions that plague the Alexandria/Arlington metro area.  I can't even imagine the fuel they're wasting, not to mention that it's the more difficult to acquire diesel. 

The GPK in garbage trucks reminds me of the Wacky Races from the 60's, where the racers were put in vehicles that all too obviously matched their gimmick.  Like cavemen driving a giant rock, or monster types driving a hearse.  Even Dick Dastardly was smarter than Rick Grimes.

[smorbie]

48 minutes ago, nodorothyparker said:

I think that's at least part of why I've latched so hard onto the Kingdom this season.  Yes, two of my favorite characters ended up there.  And Ezekiel and Shiva are pretty.  But even at it's silliest, like when they're carrying their own heraldry into battle against Negan (which, really?), at least they're not so unrelentingly grim and humorless as the rest of the show seems to have gotten.  

And don't forget Ezekiel's exasperated yelling, "Jerry!"  I laugh every time I hear that.

I love Jerry.  As someone once sent in a message to Chris Hardwick, if they kill Jerry, I will burn this place down!

To the FBI, CIA or any other alphabet reading this, that was obviously tongue in cheek.  I don't even know what place the original writer was referring to.

[smorbie]

1 hour ago, JackONeill said:

Your point is true, too. It it weren't true, there'd be a whole lot fewer people walking around on this show. But the bigger point is that in the first few seasons there was more about characterization. (And I feel silly even discussing this because TWD has NEVER been thought of as Masterpiece Theater.) Getting to know a character is more interesting than seeing, well, Rambo on screen for the full two-hours. Rambo is an archetype. After the first movie, there was no need for growth. He was an action figure. I'm no fan of that, but I have no problem with that. (I liked cowboy movies and the same could be said for the early Eastwood movies.)

I like seeing character growth. Even in TWD, even in all the sameness, there were times when they'd run into something that was a little bit different and it posed a challenge which caused them to think. As much as she was nearly universally hated, I liked Beth because she added something that wasn't in abundance on the show--a certain naivety. She was a counterpoint. As was Hershcel, and Dale, and Glenn, at least before Glenn became afflicted with the super power of being able to escape the mightiest of Walkers! (But, alas, not a bat.)

And yet, Negan is letting Eugene and Dwight live. And I think Negan suspects them of betraying him. So, now, he's showing an abundance of caution that may come back and kill him in the end. (Assuming Kirkman can let Negan die.)

I think he's not sure, so he's distancing Dwight from the inner circle and probably going to be keeping a closer eye on Eugene.  He let himself slip a little with Sasha, but his hackles are really up with Dwight and Eugene now.

I think they are both still quite valuable to him, so he's not ready to heat up the furnace or the iron yet.  But, he's studying them.

And I personally don't think Kirkman can let Negan die.  I think he believes he has created the ultimate villain and that people's hatred of the character is because he (Kirkman) has been so successful in that creation.

But, I just hate him.  I hate the leaning and the never-ending talking.  I hate the caricature he's turned himself into.  Yes, he's evil.  No argument here, and I would hate him just for that.  But this....this....Why are we being punished??

26 minutes ago, Johnny Dollar said:

My problem with the GPK riding around in garbage trucks, other than the sheer ridiculousness of it all, is more practical. They probably get about 2 miles per gallon. Since my Google device tells me that Northern Virginia hasn't had open landfills similar to GPK City since the 1980's, they probably had to travel fifty miles to get to Alexandria, using 25 gallons of gas for the trip. Using the scientifically proven theorem that's taught at all of the best engineering schools of 20 GPK per Truck, their FU/GPKT (Fuel Used per Garbage Pail Kid Transported) would be a shockingly inefficient 1.25. Any run of the mill, family sized sedan, like your five passenger Honda Accord or your Toyota Camry, could easily achieve an FU/GPKT of a mere .40, which could be reduced further to a minuscule .25 if the Kids in the back seat are willing to double up. And this assumes the stop-and-go city driving conditions that plague the Alexandria/Arlington metro area.  I can't even imagine the fuel they're wasting, not to mention that it's the more difficult to acquire diesel. 

The GPK in garbage trucks reminds me of the Wacky Races from the 60's, where the racers were put in vehicles that all too obviously matched their gimmick.  Like cavemen driving a giant rock, or monster types driving a hearse.  Even Dick Dastardly was smarter than Rick Grimes.

Aah, you use what you've got.  The garbage trucks probably hold a lot of people, certainly more than a sedan.  And I doubt gas is a problem since Negan steals from everyone and probably has a lot of gasoline available to share.

[ghoulina]

20 hours ago, Gobi said:

This seems as good a place as any to discuss this. I've been wondering what's happened with Darryl, once one of the most interesting characters in the show. I think the problem is that he is a non-comics character, and TPTB are having increasing difficulty shoehorning him into the comics' storyline that they are following more closely.

In the past, I think they have had Darryl do things that some other characters in the comics did. Hardly conducive to a consistent character, either.

This is a good point. If they give him a Tyrese storyline one season and a Dale storyline another season, it's going to give us a really random, inconsistent character. 

But I also think a large problem with Daryl is that when his fan-girl status got so high, TPTB just stopped caring. They could focus on other things and trot a sleeveless Reedus on a motorcycle out every so often and people would still love him. I (somewhat sheepishly) still follow TWD pages on Facebook and that dude still has SO many fans. Despite the fact that *I* have found him a boring emo brat since season 4, a great many people still think he's the tits. 

18 hours ago, ganesh said:

I was NOT expecting the Sasha reveal, so that was interesting. Although, Eugene could have snuck her a knife and that would have been, you know, actually strategic. 

This is how bad things have gotten - I expected Sasha to be dead. I figured she was going to off herself, so that Negan's little plan would fail. However, I did NOT expect her to be a walker. I think I forgot about walkers for a minute, y'all!!!! 

[MV007]

2 hours ago, Johnny Dollar said:

My problem with the GPK riding around in garbage trucks, other than the sheer ridiculousness of it all, is more practical. They probably get about 2 miles per gallon. Since my Google device tells me that Northern Virginia hasn't had open landfills similar to GPK City since the 1980's, they probably had to travel fifty miles to get to Alexandria, using 25 gallons of gas for the trip. Using the scientifically proven theorem that's taught at all of the best engineering schools of 20 GPK per Truck, their FU/GPKT (Fuel Used per Garbage Pail Kid Transported) would be a shockingly inefficient 1.25. Any run of the mill, family sized sedan, like your five passenger Honda Accord or your Toyota Camry, could easily achieve an FU/GPKT of a mere .40, which could be reduced further to a minuscule .25 if the Kids in the back seat are willing to double up. And this assumes the stop-and-go city driving conditions that plague the Alexandria/Arlington metro area.  I can't even imagine the fuel they're wasting, not to mention that it's the more difficult to acquire diesel. 

The GPK in garbage trucks reminds me of the Wacky Races from the 60's, where the racers were put in vehicles that all too obviously matched their gimmick.  Like cavemen driving a giant rock, or monster types driving a hearse.  Even Dick Dastardly was smarter than Rick Grimes.

I hate to be the one to tell you this but your research on Northern Virginia landfills is way more research then anyone associated with this show has ever done.  I wouldn't think about things like that too hard.

[AngelaHunter]

3 hours ago, smorbie said:

But this isn't Sean of the Dead or Z Nation.  The story is being told as a serious one, and that's how they are playing it.  

It isn't even "ZombieLand". Yeah, I'm aware of that.

Edited April 5, 2017 by AngelaHunter

[paigow]

3 hours ago, Johnny Dollar said:

Using the scientifically proven theorem that's taught at all of the best engineering schools of 20 GPK per Truck, their FU/GPKT (Fuel Used per Garbage Pail Kid Transported) would be a shockingly inefficient 1.25

Does the formula account for a higher drag coefficient? These guys are hanging off the outside or on the roof....Or are they assumed to be in the compacting area?

[mightysparrow]

4 hours ago, JackONeill said:

Your point is true, too. It it weren't true, there'd be a whole lot fewer people walking around on this show. But the bigger point is that in the first few seasons there was more about characterization. (And I feel silly even discussing this because TWD has NEVER been thought of as Masterpiece Theater.) Getting to know a character is more interesting than seeing, well, Rambo on screen for the full two-hours. Rambo is an archetype. After the first movie, there was no need for growth. He was an action figure. I'm no fan of that, but I have no problem with that. (I liked cowboy movies and the same could be said for the early Eastwood movies.)

I like seeing character growth. Even in TWD, even in all the sameness, there were times when they'd run into something that was a little bit different and it posed a challenge which caused them to think. As much as she was nearly universally hated, I liked Beth because she added something that wasn't in abundance on the show--a certain naivety. She was a counterpoint. As was Hershcel, and Dale, and Glenn, at least before Glenn became afflicted with the super power of being able to escape the mightiest of Walkers! (But, alas, not a bat.)

 

Very well said.

Diversity isn't just about having characters of different races; it's also about having different 'types' of characters.  I remember when Michonne was introduced.  There was a lot of questioning about HOW Michonne came to be so skilled as a warrior.  Well, since Gimple never bothered to spend more than 5 minutes on Michonne's back story, we never found out.  But Michonne was introduced as a bad-ass warrior, so that was who she was as a character.

I've never liked Carol.  I've always thought that she was sneaky, selfish and passive-aggressive.  But the character was realistic.  She was a middle aged, abused woman who seemed to have devoted her life to raising her daughter.  I didn't think there was anything wrong with that.  Not everybody has to be a super-hero.  As time went on, Carol changed.  She was free of Ed, she was with a group of people that she cared about and cared for her and she was in the middle of a zombie apocalypse.  But she was still a woman who had been a 'mommy' before the change.  I didn't see anything wrong with that.  Not everybody has to be a super-hero.  The murders of Karen and David pissed off a lot of Carol fans because it made her look bad but I thought it was in character.

Then suddenly, Carol's blowing up the Sanctuary.  I still call 'bullshit' on that one.  There was never any hint that Carol had munitions experience in her past, but there she was blowing shit up.  Carol's a killing machine.  And not just the type that will sneak up on someone and kill them in their sleep.  Carol's a one-woman wrecking crew. 

I still marvel that people who claimed that Michonne was unbelievable because she jumped out of a tree and took on a group of the Governor's men, have accepted the complete character transformation of Carol.  And speaking of overnight transformations, Michonne the 'warrior' has gone through one of her own.  Michonne NEVER stopped fighting.  After the prison fell, and she thought she had lost everyone she cared about, she still kept fighting, taking on a whole herd of walkers.

But Michonne's fucking Rick Grimes now and things have changed.  Michonne spends most of her time either fucking Rick or telling him what a special snowflake he is.  From the tiny peek at Michonne's pre-ZA life, it was clear that Michonne had no problem standing up to her lover, if necessary.  The woman who gave the world the phrase, 'crazy makes you stupid and stupid gets you killed' won't say a peep even when her boyfriend comes up with plan after plan that are ALL doomed to fail and will get loved ones killed.  As long as Rick (or Carl) doesn't die, it's hinky-dinky with Michonne.  God-forbid Rick does get a scratch on him though.  Michonne survived the death of her own child but she won't be able to endure life without Rick Grimes.

There are probably a lot of people in the ZA who could kick Michonne's ass, even if they do look like 'blonde gymnasts' (tm someone very funny upthread).  But Mary Lou barely had a scratch on her and Michonne looked like she'd gone a few rounds with Shiva.  The gymnast must have tripped on something and fallen off that roof because it didn't look like Michonne had it in her to push ML off.

Character growth is a great thing.  Human beings grow and change and it's interesting to watch.  But I think character transformation is sloppy and boring.

[SherriAnt]

On ‎2017‎-‎04‎-‎04 at 9:48 AM, smorbie said:

You?

I quit Sleepy Hollow, NCIS New Orleans and 2 Broke girls. 

[Gobi]

18 minutes ago, paigow said:

Does the formula account for a higher drag coefficient? These guys are hanging off the outside or on the roof....Or are they assumed to be in the compacting area?

How many of them were dressed in drag?

[AngelaHunter]

21 minutes ago, mightysparrow said:

Michonne survived the death of her own child but she won't be able to endure life without Rick Grimes.

It's especially silly (or sad) when you look at how that came about. The object of Rick's lust, Jessie, dies. Rick's sitting on the couch with his buddy, Michonne, and probably thinking, "GodDAM! I was so horny and she was my type." He turns and sees his good buddy there, as usual,  and recalls the words to an old song, "If you can't be with the one you love, love the one you're with." She'll do, I guess.

[paigow]

37 minutes ago, AngelaHunter said:

 and recalls the words to an old song, "If you can't be with the one you love, love the one you're with." 

Or angrily rejects the speech from Top Gun: "There's no points for second place [best]"

[Andromeda]

On 4/3/2017 at 9:36 AM, RedDelicious said:

I burst into a massive fit of giggles when the garbage trucks rolled into Alexandria.  I was DYING.  The episode was over for me after that.  I just could not take it seriously.

Me too, totally!! 

I actually thought it made sense. The trash site is where a lot of garbage trucks would be parked, and they're heavy duty, good for conflicts. But it was funny.

[TigerLynx]

I agree if they had cut down on Negan's never ending monologues he would have been a better villain.  He has some funny lines - to Zombie Sasha, "Goddamnit, honey."  About Maggie, "The Widow's alive with guns a blazin."  To Carl, after Carl had killed some Saviors, "Aren't you adorable."  "Because Skinny Joey without Fat Joey, is just Joey."

Another problem is Negan's followers are not with him out of loyalty.  They fear him, and Negan's top henchmen/enforcers are sadistic psychos like Negan.  Which means Negan cannot show any kind of weakness or fear because then one of them might decide to take Negan out, and be top sadistic psycho himself.  At this point, Negan should have killed Rick, Eugene, and Dwight.  The, if you screw up, I will kill someone else philosophy, isn't working with this group.

Negan should have told Rick he was going to kill Rick, and since he likes Carl so much, and wants a son just like him, he's going to take Carl to be his son.  Then told Rick and Carl not to worry about Judith because Negan intends to keep the siblings together.  If Negan has Judith, he would believe that he could keep Carl under control, and Carl could be his serial kill in training.  Shiva still could have shown up to save the day.

I wonder if any of the Alexandrians are like, "Hey Aaron, could you take this group back to wherever you found them?"