Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[catrox14]

5 minutes ago, tv echo said:

Felicity made even evil Earth-X Oliver smile - just not in a good way. (I wonder if this smile was scripted or ad-libbed by SA.) 

I think that was just an acting choice by SA to show Evil Oliver's arrogance and hubris that he would take pleasure in killing Felicity to get to Kara. I like the choice myself.

[ohjoy]

12 hours ago, lemotomato said:

I loved this gifset: five times oliver asked felicity to spend the rest of their lives together + the one time she did
(http://oliverxfelicity.tumblr.com/post/167998350666/five-times-oliver-asked-felicity-to-spend-the-rest) 

This one's my favorite. How do you say "No" to that face? (I mean, I know she said "No" to that face, I just don't know how she managed to do so.)

[catrox14]

15 minutes ago, garnetarden said:

his one's my favorite. How do you say "No" to that face? (I mean, I know she said "No" to that face, I just don't know how she managed to do so.)

FEAR is a powerful thing. Poor Felicity so scared of love and scared of not having the love of her life. :(

[tv echo]

When Olicity got married in the conclusion of the crossover, Oliver said to Felicity: "I remember saying something along the lines of, you're the very best part of me. Felicity, I'm a better human being just because I've loved you."

These words bugged me a little for the following three reasons...

1.  His words were all about him. It's how Felicity is the best part of him and how she makes him a better human being. His vows during their fake wedding in S4 were much better. 

In 416, Oliver said: "Felicity, before I met you, I had a plan. I had a way that I was going to be. But then you walked into my life – or I showed up at your cubicle, and you changed everything. I was in the darkness, but with your kindness, your generosity, your compassion, your intelligence, your wit and your trust, you brought me into the light. You let me know that I deserved it. You were that light. And I don't know if I still deserve that trust, if I deserve you - I probably don't.  But whatever has happened, whatever will happen, the way that you make me feel is the best part of my life. You can ask me to say that I don't love you, but I will never lie to you again. You are my always, and I just want the chance to be yours."

2.  The "you're the very best part of me" line reminded me of stuff that Oliver had said to Laurel in the past.

For example, in a 419 flashback scene, Laurel read a letter that Oliver left behind for her when he returned to Lian Yu after Tommy died. In that letter, Oliver wrote: "Dear Laurel, I wrote this letter because I don't have the courage to see the disappointment on your face. I know you're gonna go on to do amazing things, to help people, and to raise this city up… because that's who you are, that's who you've always been, and that's why I have to go away. I would only hold you back. You're the hero, Laurel. Maybe I'll come back eventually, but for now, I have to spend some time alone. I hope someday you'll understand my decision. Never doubt my love for you. You've always seen the best in me because you've always been the best of me. All my love, Oliver.”

3.  That's twice now that Felicity never really got to say any wedding vows. In the fake wedding, she was upset and gritted out: "Okay, um... Oliver, you have many qualities - many astonishing qualities, and I for one cannot wait to move on to the next chapter."

Subsequently, when Cupid said that "Love is death," Felicity responded by telling her: "It's not. You saw all those people outside, right? They're out there because love is real. Because love is life itself and, if I die tonight, it'll be okay. Because I was one of those people lucky enough to have experienced it.  From the moment he walked into my life, everything changed.  I became a person that I didn't even know I was capable of becoming. I became the very best version of myself. That would have never been possible without our love. Our love gives my life meaning, gives my life purpose... and it brings us more joy than you could ever take away from us. And it's worth living for.  All of it."

So I guess you could surmise that those were her real wedding vows. However, we still never got to see her say her real wedding vows to Oliver.

I know I'm being nitpicky. So I'll just say - I'm so, so happy that Oliver & Felicity are finally married!

Bottom line, they both basically said the same thing: Loving Felicity made Oliver a better person. Loving Oliver made Felicity a better person.

Edited November 29, 2017 by tv echo

[Midnight Lullaby]

1 hour ago, tv echo said:

After re-watching the above 1x03 clip of Oliver meeting Felicity for the first time, I hate even to mention this - but... 

Felicity made even evil Earth-X Oliver smile - just not in a good way. (I wonder if this smile was scripted or ad-libbed by SA.) 

 

It felt to me like the “admiration” (I don’t know which better term to use) villains often show for Felicity when she does something badass. Also because of what he says right after about her speech not being bad as parting words.

[Mellowyellow]

They should have had XOliver say "Ms Smoak" at some point. Missed opportunity!

I thought SA actually had spark in that scene. It was one of his better scenes as a villain. 

At first I kept laughing at his face cuz he looked like he was into her until @BkWurm1 pointed out it's super creepy for a villain to be into you before they kill you. 

Edited November 29, 2017 by Mellowyellow

[calliope1975]

Plus the Nazis blathered on for 4 hours about how weak E1ers were and I think he was surprised by such a strong show of strength. And you know maybe turned on a bit. LOL 

[leopardprint]

2 hours ago, tv echo said:

These words bugged me a little for the following three reasons...

1.  His words were all about him. It's how Felicity is the best part of him and how she makes him a better human being. His vows during their fake wedding in S4 were much better. 

This bothered me too but he also said something along similar lines to Thea in 607 about how much he needed her and I'm like dude way to make her coma all about you. 

Perhaps he was still freaked about Nazi Oliver? 

Edited November 29, 2017 by leopardprint

[TrueMyth]

I'm a bit sad about Felicity interrupting WestAllen's ceremony.  I know she was supposed to be inspired by their vows to take the plung, but I do think it was rude, and I hate that because I love Felicity so. 

I also think the writers missed an opportunity. They could have had Barry and Iris talking wistfully about the "right time" and made THAT the catalyst for the proposal. Felicity could have blurted out something like "We should all get married right now!" And then she could have babbled to clarify, "I mean you marry her, and I marry Oliver.  Not some weird group thing.  Who knows what's next? Mole people from the hollow Earth?"

Anyway, I think it still could have hit the same beats, but without the actual interruptions and with the full consent of WestAllen to a double wedding.

By the way, if the next crossover villains are mole people, you heard it hear first!

[Mellowyellow]

Has Oliver declared anywhere that he doesn't dance or hates dancing?

Because as part of my spiral I am now watching old Olicity clips and the "Time for a dance?" in season 2 sounded like he was asking Felicity to dance.

Unless I'm confused and he does dance and all the fanfic I read is tricking me into thinking he doesn't dance.

[bijoux]

My brain is mush, so I can't remember the episode, but I think it was S3 when Oliver came back to the foundry and Felicity commented, So no victory dance. To which Oliver replied, You know I don't dance. I think that's where the assumption that Oliver hates to dance comes from.

[lemotomato]

It was in 316!

[Mellowyellow]

Thank you Olicity gurus!

Omg the flirting and pining heart eyes. Most handsome Demon's Head indeed.

From this to him going "I do. I do."

I may never recover from this crossover! 

*wanders off looking dazed*

Hmm now I want to know if he would have danced with her in the S2 ep where he invites Barry to the party and acts all snarky about it. 

[Mary0360]

1 hour ago, bijoux said:

My brain is mush, so I can't remember the episode, but I think it was S3 when Oliver came back to the foundry and Felicity commented, So no victory dance. To which Oliver replied, You know I don't dance. I think that's where the assumption that Oliver hates to dance comes from.

In season 1 he also refused to dance with McKenna at Verdant and IIRC made a comment to a passer by about being a bad dancer. 

[SmallScreenDiva]

9 hours ago, Mellowyellow said:

Hmm now I want to know if he would have danced with her in the S2 ep where he invites Barry to the party and acts all snarky about it. 

He knew she was pissed and wouldn't dance with him so he was safe asking her, LOL!

I'd forgotten how flirty they were in that scene. I love Felicity's "A thank you and you were right" gasp. Also, her sexily sashaying toward him. 

The look on Oliver's face when Ray called is heartbreaking (it was your fault, idiot!) ... he gives her a little smile when Felicity says she's taking the call and then he closes his eyes dejectedly as soon as she moves away. I hated the angst of Season 3 while it was airing but I've since enjoyed SOME of the scenes. (Not so with Season 5, a huge chunk of that was stupid). 

[EmeraldArcher]

On 11/29/2017 at 4:37 PM, tv echo said:

When Olicity got married in the conclusion of the crossover, Oliver said to Felicity: "I remember saying something along the lines of, you're the very best part of me. Felicity, I'm a better human being just because I've loved you."

These words bugged me a little for the following three reasons...

[snip]

Bottom line, they both basically said the same thing: Loving Felicity made Oliver a better person. Loving Oliver made Felicity a better person.

Although I understand your perspective, I focused on "I'm a better human being . . . "  I was so grateful that he didn't say "better man" and chose "human being."  Women never say they're trying to be a "better woman," and I get tired of the loaded, gendered implications of "better man."   Well done, Oliver.

[BkWurm1]

On 11/29/2017 at 5:50 PM, leopardprint said:

This bothered me too but he also said something along similar lines to Thea in 607 about how much he needed her and I'm like dude way to make her coma all about you. 

Perhaps he was still freaked about Nazi Oliver? 

 

Yeah, that's how I took it. That he was commenting on who he might have been had she not come into his life.  Very much a call back to OliverX being who he was in part because of who loved, at least in our Oliver's mind.  Which is why he said he's a better human being just for having loved her.  So in this context saying you are the very best part of me isn't a platitude or Oliver only focusing on something still pure in his life, but him crediting who he'd become as a person when she came into his life.  Basically the OTA speech he always gives that credits Diggle and Felicity for changing the course of his life for the better, but this time it's just for Felicity.  

[leopardprint]

13 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

Yeah, that's how I took it. That he was commenting on who he might have been had she not come into his life.  Very much a call back to OliverX being who he was in part because of who loved, at least in our Oliver's mind.  Which is why he said he's a better human being just for having loved her.  So in this context saying you are the very best part of me isn't a platitude or Oliver only focusing on something still pure in his life, but him crediting who he'd become as a person when she came into his life.  Basically the OTA speech he always gives that credits Diggle and Felicity for changing the course of his life for the better, but this time it's just for Felicity.  

Felicity has always supported and encouraged the best parts of Oliver's self.  OTOH, I'm not sure it's fair to put that all on Felicity. It's not Felicity's responsibility to prevent Oliver from becoming a Nazi. (There's a sentence I never thought I'd write. Oh show.) ?

I wonder what happened to Thea-X? 

[BunsenBurner]

From @jesileighs on Twitter 

You guys I’m emo. Ada Lovelace, Felicity’s childhood hero and the first computer programmer, poet of science was abandoned by her father Lord Byron (yes that one) and was temporarily paralyzed as a teenager. I just... I...

She married a guy named KING. William. KING.

Edited December 2, 2017 by BunsenBurner

[Hiveminder]

8 minutes ago, BunsenBurner said:

From @jesileighs on Twitter 

You guys I’m emo. Ada Lovelace, Felicity’s childhood hero and the first computer programmer, poet of science was abandoned by her father Lord Byron (yes that one) and was temporarily paralyzed as a teenager. I just... I...

She married a guy named KING. William. KING.

That’s the best thing I’ve heard all day. 

[Guest]

28 minutes ago, BunsenBurner said:

From @jesileighs on Twitter 

You guys I’m emo. Ada Lovelace, Felicity’s childhood hero and the first computer programmer, poet of science was abandoned by her father Lord Byron (yes that one) and was temporarily paralyzed as a teenager. I just... I...

She married a guy named KING. William. KING.

Whoa. They put a lot of effort in that! I'm impressed. I love it.

[JamieLynn832002]

9 hours ago, leopardprint said:

I wonder what happened to Thea-X? 

I wonder if she ever existed at all? I know everything Tommy-X said should be taken with about a billion grains of salt but he did talk as though both his parents were still alive which could theoretically mean Moira and Malcolm never conceived her. 

[Trini]

Now that she's married, has Felicity said anything about whether she's going to be a Smoak, Smoak-Queen, or a Queen?

[way2interested]

Just now, Trini said:

Now that she's married, has Felicity said anything about whether she's going to be a Smoak, Smoak-Queen, or a Queen?

According to MG:

[Mellowyellow]

Continuing the tradition so that villains can keep addressing her as Ms Smoak.

I will never stop being bitter that they didn't have EvilOliver say "Ms Smoak."

[Hiveminder]

1 hour ago, way2interested said:

According to MG:

If Felicity is keeping her name I really like that, and I think it's neat that she's following her mother's example in that.  I read a lot of fics where Oliver and/or Felicity are very invested in Felicity changing her name to Queen, and I don't think that really fits with either of their characters.  And on a personal note, if I ever were to marry there's no way I'm changing my name, so I identify with that choice.

[lemotomato]

I like that Felicity is keeping Smoak because hopefully that means Helix Dynamics gets renamed SmoakTech at some point.

[Guest]

I'm cool with Felicity keeping her own name. It's pretty iconic now anyway. As long as someone calls her Mrs Queen at some point. ?

[catrox14]

2 hours ago, Mellowyellow said:

Continuing the tradition so that villains can keep addressing her as Ms Smoak.

I will never stop being bitter that they didn't have EvilOliver say "Ms Smoak."

And some villain will try to call her Mrs. Queen and she'll say, "that's Ms Smoak to you"

[bettername2come]

Keeping her name makes sense for the character, even if I do think Felicity Queen has a nice ring to it. And Smoak-Queen sounds like a fairy tale villain or a Once Upon a Time ship.

[statsgirl]

I'm still caught back in the marriage in the crossover when Diggle said that he had been trying to keep them together for six years.  That means he was pushing for Oliver to be with Felicity back in season 1 when he was mooning over Laurel.  And McKenna. And Sara.  (We knew the latter from 2x13.)

[calliope1975]

20 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

I'm still caught back in the marriage in the crossover when Diggle said that he had been trying to keep them together for six years.  That means he was pushing for Oliver to be with Felicity back in season 1 when he was mooning over Laurel.  And McKenna. And Sara.  (We knew the latter from 2x13.)

I feel like Oliver was probably always mentioning that Felicity girl to Digg and the things she was doing to help them out without even realizing it. John Diggle knew from day one. 

"Digg, I don't think Felicity believed my rich people scavenger hunt story." "Digg, Felicity thinks archery is ridiculous." "Digg, Felicity was talking about Shakespeare."

[BkWurm1]

I do like the idea that Diggle had been shipping them from the very beginning (I pick the moment he was watching Oliver try to tell her he was giving her a syringe full of a sports drink to get tested) but I also think even when romance was a long distance away from being realized that he realized how important she was to Oliver's life, the life of the team, the mission and to Oliver's humanity.  He had to have noticed that something about Felicity reached Oliver in a way different from anyone else in his life.  Nothing super overt but the subtle stuff in that first season was extra meaningful.  :D  

[Mellowyellow]

Scenes like this one always makes me think that Diggle has shipped them for a long time. 

Watch his face at the end. 

Also this scene made me realise the full on tender heart eyes didn't appear until end of season 2. He just looks like he's very very very attracted to her here.

[Simba122504]

On 12/10/2017 at 5:29 PM, Hiveminder said:

If Felicity is keeping her name I really like that, and I think it's neat that she's following her mother's example in that.  I read a lot of fics where Oliver and/or Felicity are very invested in Felicity changing her name to Queen, and I don't think that really fits with either of their characters.  And on a personal note, if I ever were to marry there's no way I'm changing my name, so I identify with that choice.

"Felicity Queen" doesn't have the same ring to it. Neither does "Smoak-Queen" That one is funny. My last name is boring, so if the guy has a way better one,  I'm definitely changing it. I hate my entire name, so I wouldn't miss my last name. lol I still want to hear someone say, "Mrs. Queen." ?

Edited December 13, 2017 by Simba122504

[catrox14]

On 12/10/2017 at 6:18 PM, bettername2come said:

Keeping her name makes sense for the character, even if I do think Felicity Queen has a nice ring to it. And Smoak-Queen sounds like a fairy tale villain or a Once Upon a Time ship.

Or better yet, QueenSmoak

[SmallScreenDiva]

6 minutes ago, Jacks-Son said:

Hmm, Nyssa must have thought it was because she always referred to Oliver as "Husband".

I do find it interesting that in the 1 episode they decided to make this relevant -- Oliver told Merlyn he was fighting him in place of Nyssa -- they had Oliver looking to Felicity for approval before he sliced off Merlyn's hand. #Married

[Midnight Lullaby]

Ugh, I hated that whole arc. Season 2 Nyssa would have gone after Merlyn herself and would have never asked Oliver for help.

[BkWurm1]

11 minutes ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

I think the husband comments exist because of the writers’ cringeworthy sense of humor primary but from Nyssa’s POV I took them as if she thought she was married for real given that season 2 to 3 changed her from kickass assassin that thought poorly of men to pawn in her father’s hands.

I think because Nyssa was raised to view League rules as law, yes, I agree she thought officially Oliver was husband but then she is the one that disbanded the League after this incident when Oliver acted in her stead so he could challenge Merlyn when he was Ra's.  So Oliver challenged Ra's, got the ring back, gave the power to Nyssa and she ended the Leauge for good and released every member from any vows they'd made.  So while that mostly meant allegiance to Ra's, it also would have released her and Oliver from their forced wedding vows done because Ra's made them.  

When she called him husband after that in season five, I do think she did it just to needle him.  Just like I think she told Slade about it and I guess filled him in on Oliver and Felicity's current broken up status.  

Edited December 14, 2017 by BkWurm1

[Midnight Lullaby]

Or thinks marriage lasts forever. My grandfather died more than ten years ago and if you ask my grandma she is still married.

[BkWurm1]

I have trouble believing she thinks that way about a forced union made under currently defunct laws, especially when the marriage was never consummated and she probably planned on killing Oliver if he ever tried.  I think Nyssa instead developed a complicated, sly, sense of humor, one that could be defended as "fact", which makes sense with her growing up in such a rigid and unforgiving society.  

8 minutes ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

Or thinks marriage lasts forever. My grandfather died more than ten years ago and if you ask my grandma she is still married.

Which is interesting because even in traditional vows it's only until death...then you part, lol.  

[Midnight Lullaby]

I honestly don’t know what to think of Nyssa. I feel like they were writing her in a way in season 2 then, for plot reasons, changed in season 3 so I can’t judge. Both possibilities for me are equally possible because I find the writing all over the place..

3 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

 

Which is interesting because even in traditional vows it's only until death...then you part, lol.  

I know, LOL

[statsgirl]

My father died twelve years before my mother did but she considered herself married to him through that time.  He was the love of her life, and she was just waiting to join him.

Nyssa, on the other hand, I think does it to needle Oliver.

[tennisgurl]

Pretty sure Nyssa just called Oliver "husband" to annoy him, but its hard to tell with Nyssa. She did grow up in the League after all, and its hard to shake off those kinds of rules having lived with them your whole life. Either way, its not like they act particularly married or have any legal standing. She generally likes Oliver and the gang alright, more now than she used to, and is generally an ally now, but thats about as deep as their relationship gets on either end. 

Actually, I would kind of like to see them hang out a bit on a mission or something. Not in a "shippy" way, God no, but just talking about their weird shared experiences. Of course, I love Nyssa, and would take her talking to Howard the Duck if it meant she was around more. 

[leopardprint]

17 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

Nyssa, on the other hand, I think does it to needle Oliver.

I feel that if Nyssa thought they were really married, she would, like, keep in touch with him? 

Though now I wonder how Oliver got ahold of her for help in 523? Purple smoke? Extra large scarves? Instagram?

Edited December 15, 2017 by leopardprint

[calliope1975]

2 hours ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

I LOVED THAT PROPOSAL! :) 

You guys know I was really worried the show would have Felicity proposing without properly setting up but this was such a perfect setup for that. Oliver just really wanting to marry her and not even waiting was awesome. I loved how awkward he was, how nervous ... talking about crab cakes and stuff. 

Anyway, I just loved the no-frills, soft voiced "Felicity Megan Smoak, will you marry me?" complete with heart eyes. 

I adore that Oliver is written and SA plays it that Oliver is just a big heart eyed dork for Felicity. I don't know the time frame between the wedding and the reception, but he'd been married to Felicity and presumably had been doing sexy time married things with her, and he was still nervous that she wouldn't show up to their reception. 

It warms my black heart that douche Ollie has evolved into this guy who is so devoted to Felicity. I know it's the result of years of physical and psychological torture, and a probably complete mental breakdown, and he and Dean Winchester should get a Groupon for group self-esteem therapy (actually, I haven't seen Supernatural in a few years - has Dean gained any self-worth?) but I'm glad that he hopefully feels a bit of peace with Felicity. And I suppose his kid, but whatever. 

[SmallScreenDiva]

I realized something from "We Fall." William gets sorta mad at his dad and Oliver basically leaves him alone and doesn't talk to him even after Felicity's pep talk. He knows he needs to talk to his son but sort of puts it off. I mean, they did have the family meeting at the end of the episode but I get the feeling that he called it after Felicity told him that she kinda prepped William for it. 

It's very similar to how he handled his breakup with Felicity. Felicity gets mad at him and leaves and he doesn't really try to talk to her. He tried to fake marry her, but as lovely as the vows were during the fake wedding they didn't really address the core of Felicity's problem — that he didn't trust her enough as a partner to loop her in and make the decision with her. So he puts off talking to her for months, apparently. TBF, Felicity apparently also seems to have tried to avoid it. Something that he mentions in 520 after the bunker sex.

[way2interested]

Yeah, Oliver and Felicity are kind of both people who in times of negativity are prepared to just cut their losses and live with it (Oliver because he thinks he deserves it and Felicity because she doesn't want to deal with the loss). So, this time, because they've developed and they can't just cut their losses since a child is involved, they actually recognize that they should talk to William, but even then aren't perfect with it. They even pretty much concede that the meeting at the end wasn't so much of a win as much as something that they had to confront together (mostly to narratively parallel the first scene between all three of them where there was a lie between them but things were light and nice with a final scene where the truth was in the open but things were slightly tense and sad. Heck, the writers and WS even framed the scene in similar beats and shots.). It kind of just shows to me that Oliver and Felicity have developed but aren't done, and that they're at least semi-aware of it, which did make me like the episode more.

[BkWurm1]

1 hour ago, way2interested said:

They even pretty much concede that the meeting at the end wasn't so much of a win as much as something that they had to confront together (mostly to narratively parallel the first scene between all three of them where there was a lie between them but things were light and nice with a final scene where the truth was in the open but things were slightly tense and sad. Heck, the writers and WS even framed the scene in similar beats and shots.). It kind of just shows to me that Oliver and Felicity have developed but aren't done, and that they're at least semi-aware of it, which did make me like the episode more.

Part of what made it not so much of a win was Willaim basically saying, hey, I can now handle if dad dies as the Green Arrow because I still have you.  Which, like Felicity said, touching but awful.  Oliver called it bittersweet (and mentioned it was the very definition of it, I get the impression he probably tries to regularly remind everyone that he knows stuff too)  The life they have, it's not ideal, but it's theirs and they wouldn't choose anything else.  ???

[GHScorpiosRule]

18 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

Part of what made it not so much of a win was Willaim basically saying, hey, I can now handle if dad dies as the Green Arrow because I still have you.  Which, like Felicity said, touching but awful.  Oliver called it bittersweet (and mentioned it was the very definition of it, I get the impression he probably tries to regularly remind everyone that he knows stuff too)  The life they have, it's not ideal, but it's theirs and they wouldn't choose anything else.  ???

You finally used emojis!!!

Okay, going back to my cave now...