S05.E17: Kapiushon

[bijoux]

Pretty sure that was Anatoly's internal monologue.

[ohjoy]

55 minutes ago, bijoux said:

Spa Day with the Bratva...

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, RandomMe said:

Spa Day with the Bratva..

Spatva?

[bethy]

Haha, right? The mayor of the city wandering the streets shirtless, bruised and burned in green leather pants, carrying a bow? NBD.

Now. Who COULD the Green Arrow be?!

Edited March 24, 2017 by bethy

[Delphi]

10 hours ago, leopardprint said:

 

Finally, S5 Oliver is very dumb, Chase probably could have convinced him he was a potted plant. 

A fern perhaps?

I don't have much to add on the episode, because I'm a day late and you guys usually have the same thoughts. 

But damn, the flash back scenes.   There's one way to show how much better the fight scenes were when there weren't 5 different vigilantes in the field.   Seriously,  I love Dig,  Thea and Roy but these new kids have to go. 

Edited March 24, 2017 by Delphi

[BunsenBurner]

I don't remember who said it but I also thought that Prometheus was actually Kovar after watching this. It would make sense. 

[thegirlsleuth]

23 minutes ago, Delphi said:

But damn, the flash back scenes.   There's line way to show how much better the fight scenes were when there weren't 5 different vigilantes in the field.   Seriously,  I love Dig,  Thea and Roy but these new kids have to go. 

I was thinking the same thing, both with the fights as well as the narrative.   It was the first morally "grown up" episode in about two seasons, like they finally took back the show from The Flash.  After three seasons of everyone and their brother and sister picking up a mask and getting a chance to swing at a baddie, this episode had real gravity.  Oliver and Sara (and to some extent, Diggle and Felicity) have always been the characters where I could see the weight of the deaths--for the rest of the heroes, it just seemed like a fun hobby. It made me miss the days when it was just Oliver, doing the things no one else should have to do, with Felicity and Diggle keeping him tethered.

Edited March 24, 2017 by thegirlsleuth

[tennisgurl]

Finally saw the episode, and I came away with two things.

1. That was a great, well written, amazingly acted episode. One of the best they've ever done.

2. I will never watch it again. WAY too emotionally draining. Oh Oliver.

Seriously though, super intense episode. I actually thought the flashbacks and the present day worked really well together, weaving between Oliver's darker side that was coming out, and the dark side that Chase was trying to force Oliver to admit to. It also had a few kick ass fight scenes, which was much appreciated. I'm watching Iron Fist on Netflix right now, and while I think its a pretty likable show, the fight scenes here just wipe the floor with the IF fights. Both in choreography, and the abilities of the main character.

As for the "is Oliver a serial killer?" thing, I don't buy it at all. I do buy that Oliver buys it. I do buy that Oliver got a certain amount of enjoyment in killing and in violence, but not because he's some horrible monster, but because during these flashbacks and in season 1, he had been used, beaten, tortured, and suffered so much at the hands of so many terrible people, that he felt good having some power back, and "getting back" at the bad people who hurt him or hurt other people. I'm not saying he was right to torture and kill people, I'm saying that he was never some kind of horrible, irredeemable monster, he was a guy who was deeply traumatized with no time to process what had happened to him before some other awful thing happened, and thought that to get his life back, he had to become more like these awful people and do to them what they did to him or to others. And this lead to Oliver's self loathing issues that have always been around, and this episode just makes them more obvious. His messed up brain has been telling himself that's he's a monster for ages, but he was able to deal with that more as the series went on, after he met Dig and Felicity and connected with Thea and everything. Then Chase came along and has seemingly convinced him that everyone in his life is better off without him, and all those relationships are nothing. It wasn't graphic torture, certainly not the worst I've seen on TV, but it was still awful to see. Chase did much worse than hurt Oliver, he could handle that, but he found every weak spot he has, every bit of self doubt, every bit of fear, and tore it wide open.

What really got me was the end, where Oliver was just laying there, whispering how sorry he was to Chase, as he was on top of him, about to take a fucking blow torch to his body. Like, Jesus Ollie, your apologizing to the guy who tortured you for six days! He didn't even look close to fighting him. He really did seem utterly broken, more so then we`ve ever seen him. It was just awful to see. Speaking of, Chase and Evelyn can go straight to Hell. Awful, evil people, no matter how much they try to justify themselves. When Oliver got back to the Bunker, it looked like Dig was already ready to go off and tear Chases arms off, and beat him to death with them. Felicity looked like she was going to start crying and shaking. Maybe Felicity doesn't go dark trying to save Oliver, she goes dark getting revenge on the people who hurt him. That would also create more parallels to Oliver and his own dark path.

Thank GOD we have Anatoly in the flashbacks to give us some levity here and there, as well as some perspective. "See how easy it is to think first and kill people later?" Or, my favorite, when he met Malcom (!)

"Malcolm Merlyn, CEO, Merlyn Global Group."

"Anatoly Knyazev, Gangster."

[calliope1975]

4 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Spatva?

Well, the LOA has their Bed n Breakfast niche, why not the Bratva?

[EAG46]

Does Dolph take his shirt off?

[Cekrypton1]

Years ago someone in the Arrow writers room did a lot of research on the Russian mob, and by God none of it will go to waste.

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

Dolph Lundgren Rages Back Into Arrow

Most of the episode takes place in flashback, and that means there's plenty of Russian beefcake to go around.

[KirkB]

For some reason I liked the fact that when they were getting their tattoos tough guy Oliver was wincing while Anatoly just looked bored.

[ketose]

Could S6 be Arrow: Bratva Days?

[BkWurm1]

5 hours ago, KirkB said:

For some reason I liked the fact that when they were getting their tattoos tough guy Oliver was wincing while Anatoly just looked bored.

Lol.  

 

2 hours ago, ketose said:

Could S6 be Arrow: Bratva Days?

They are not going to do regular flashbacks in season 6.  I expect the Bratva storyline to be wrapped up this year.  

[DigitalCount]

So flashforwards then? Followed by some flash-sideways? (thanks again Barry Allen)

[CTrent29]

I think Oliver does like inflicting pain upon others or killing.  He is a human being.  It's only natural that he would feel this way.  In fact, I suspect that most people revel in the idea of inflicting pain upon others . . . especially upon those whom they dislike.  But a lot of people (not all) are too afraid to face the consequences of their actions, or they worry about their self image.  And some excuse their violent tendencies, claiming they are using them for good.  I suspect Oliver would probably adhere to the latter.  Adrian Chase might be the same.

 

It's interesting that so many don't want to believe that Oliver gets his rocks off inflicting violence.  Yet, they simply cannot wait for him to inflict pain upon or kill both Adrian Chase and Talia al Ghul.  They don't want to believe that Oliver gets off with a spot of violence.  Yet . . . they cannot wait for him to inflict violence upon his adversaries.  Very interesting.

Edited March 26, 2017 by CTrent29

[catrox14]

I was trying to figure out why no one seemed to question why the Mayor of Star City went missing for 6 days. Did they sell that he was on vacation? Did Human Target play Mayor for the week?

Or did I miss the explanation?

[bijoux]

You didn't miss it, but I just rationalized that Lance was covering as deputy mayor and said Oliver had out of town commitments like Thea's conference.

[ketose]

I attribute it to the fact that anyone still living in Star City is stupid.

[bettername2come]

12 minutes ago, ketose said:

I attribute it to the fact that anyone still living in Star City is stupid.

Stupid people, villains and vigilantes. There is no one else.

[Hiveminder]

8 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I was trying to figure out why no one seemed to question why the Mayor of Star City went missing for 6 days. Did they sell that he was on vacation? Did Human Target play Mayor for the week?

Or did I miss the explanation?

Well, the entire episode was flashbacks, Oliver and Chase, and one quick scene in the bunker, so we don't really know if anyone questioned it or not. 

[BkWurm1]

11 hours ago, CTrent29 said:

It's interesting that so many don't want to believe that Oliver gets his rocks off inflicting violence.  Yet, they simply cannot wait for him to inflict pain upon or kill both Adrian Chase and Talia al Ghul.  They don't want to believe that Oliver gets off with a spot of violence.  Yet . . . they cannot wait for him to inflict violence upon his adversaries.  Very interesting.

I don't think being bloodthirsty over fictional TV characters is the same as calling for blood in a real world situation.  

On behalf of humanity, I also don't think only fear of punishment or loss of status is what keeps most people from killing.  Oliver had five years of "hell" to traumatize him enough so that he in season one found something to like about killing.  I don't think the show is trying to sell that it's natural to like it

[CTrent29]

I don't think that the show is trying to sell that message either.  But I suspect that a lot of human beings do like violence.

[Hiveminder]

12 hours ago, CTrent29 said:

I think Oliver does like inflicting pain upon others or killing.  He is a human being.  It's only natural that he would feel this way.  In fact, I suspect that most people revel in the idea of inflicting pain upon others . . . especially upon those whom they dislike.  But a lot of people (not all) are too afraid to face the consequences of their actions, or they worry about their self image.  And some excuse their violent tendencies, claiming they are using them for good.  I suspect Oliver would probably adhere to the latter.  Adrian Chase might be the same.

 

It's interesting that so many don't want to believe that Oliver gets his rocks off inflicting violence.  Yet, they simply cannot wait for him to inflict pain upon or kill both Adrian Chase and Talia al Ghul.  They don't want to believe that Oliver gets off with a spot of violence.  Yet . . . they cannot wait for him to inflict violence upon his adversaries.  Very interesting.

There might be more truth to this than some are willing to admit, but, for my part, I don't believe that Oliver naturally enjoys killing people. As I've said before, I think he's confused a feeling of safety, and maybe triumph a little, with enjoying killing. He 'enjoys' feeling safe. It's the result he likes, not the administration of the act.  I definitely don't think that's how he gets his rocks off.

And, personally, I don't want Oliver to 'inflict violence upon his adversaries'. I want them to be stopped because they are evil, and it seems highly unlikely that violence won't be necessary to do that. I certainly won't feel sorry for Chase and Talia if they get hurt or dead.  

Actually, what I've mostly seen is people wanting someone else (mostly Thea and Felicity) to go after Chase on Oliver's behalf. I think, at this point, we'd all like to wrap Oliver up in a comfy blanket and set him up with some hot cocoa and a puppy to cuddle. And a therapist. 

Edited March 26, 2017 by Hiveminder

[DigitalCount]

My other question is, how exactly does Susan fit into all of this? I mean, I know that's a dumb question, but any reveal involving her at this stage of the game is going to feel incredibly shoehorned in. Was she really just a not-that-great reporter with insanely good contacts who got mixed up in all of this due to her lack of journalistic integrity?

[insomniadreams88]

11 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I was trying to figure out why no one seemed to question why the Mayor of Star City went missing for 6 days. Did they sell that he was on vacation? Did Human Target play Mayor for the week?

Or did I miss the explanation?

I'm pretty sure Star City just needs a reminder every week or so that their mayor is still alive and they count it as a win. So if Oliver had been gone for 7 or 8 days, people would have started asking questions. 6? And with all the out-of-town trips he's been making this year? No big deal. 

[CTrent29]

I think this is a good time for Oliver to finally face a few truths about himself. Unlike Barry Allen, he didn't have the Speed Force or the Music Meister to teach him a lesson about himself. Instead, he had Adrian Chase and in an indirect way, Talia al Ghul to teach him a similar lesson. Chances are either Chase, Talia or both will be defeated or killed by Oliver.  Frankly, I have no personal interest in their fates.  At this point, I don't feel it is that important.  But I feel that this is an important moment in Oliver's character development. I think it's time for him to face his true self.  Instead of indulging in his violent tendencies, making excuses or going cold turkey (which is equally unhealthy), perhaps it is time for Oliver to absorb Adrian's lesson and learn how to control (and not suppress) his penchant for violence.

[KirkB]

It's Star City. Most Mayors (and their staffs, and other city officials) wind up messily dead. This one just apparently got mugged and beaten up. They're counting that as a win. At least he's still around, which is good, because I don't think anyone else wants the job.

[DeadZeus]

On ‎23‎/‎03‎/‎2017 at 7:37 PM, Bats27 said:

I'm pretty sure that Oliver is conning Chase. He doesn't really believe it, he's just pretending to for now. At least that's what it logically be.
 

As much as i want this to be the case... The way the wrote Oliver these past 2 seasons with extremely DUMB decisions i really don't think this is gonna happen.. I mean they let Oliver outsmart Slade in S2. I LOVED that reveal, even the audience was clueless about the fact that Oliver spotted the camera's. But the way Oliver is written now he just doesn't seem capable anymore to outsmart anyone on that lvl...

[statsgirl]

I think they want to sell that there is a part of Oliver who is the monster and enjoys killing.  I've personally never seen that except in terms of doing his "protect my identity/protect the city" but I can buy that after the trauma on the island and later Russia, there is a part of him who hates himself and deals with it by accepting that he has become a monster.

21 hours ago, CTrent29 said:

I suspect that most people revel in the idea of inflicting pain upon others . . . especially upon those whom they dislike.

There are some people who feel that way.  If you're interested, I recommend James Fallon's The Psychopath Inside: A Neuroscientist's Personal Journey Into The Dark Side Of The Brain.

Personally, while I delight in schadenfreude, I hate inflicting pain or seeing it inflicted.  It's prevented me from watching Game of Thrones and a number of other popular TV shows and movies.

9 hours ago, DigitalCount said:

My other question is, how exactly does Susan fit into all of this? I mean, I know that's a dumb question, but any reveal involving her at this stage of the game is going to feel incredibly shoehorned in. Was she really just a not-that-great reporter with insanely good contacts who got mixed up in all of this due to her lack of journalistic integrity?

I was hoping for a real reason for her existence but it's looking now like she's just a placeholder so people aren't wondering why Oliver isn't dating Felicity again and someone for Oliver to (moderately) care about that Chase could kidnap.  Maybe she'll write a story in the end so that Star City forgives the Green Arrow again but right now, it seems she was just a waste of story and screentime.

Edited March 27, 2017 by statsgirl

[Hiveminder]

1 hour ago, statsgirl said:

I think they want to sell that there is a part of Oliver who is the monster and enjoys killing.  I've personally never seen that except in terms of doing his "protect my identity/protect the city" but I can buy that after the trauma on the island and later Russia, there is a part of him who hates himself and deals with it by accepting that he has become a monster.

There are some people who feel that way.  If you're interested, I recommend James Fallon's The Psychopath Inside: A Neuroscientist's Personal Journey Into The Dark Side Of The Brain.

Personally, while I delight in schadenfreude and the withdrawal of the AHCA, I hate inflicting pain or seeing it inflicted.  It's prevented me from watching Game of Thrones and a number of other popular TV shows and movies.

I was hoping for a real reason for her existence but it's looking now like she's just a placeholder so people aren't wondering why Oliver isn't dating Felicity again and someone for Oliver to (moderately) care about that Chase could kidnap.  Maybe she'll write a story in the end so that Star City forgives the Green Arrow again but right now, it seems she was just a waste of story and screentime.

If I thought they were purposefully writing Susan as a bad person, I'd say she's partially there for Felicity's benefit. Felicity certainly looks good in comparison (not that she needs the help), and if Oliver had been single for the entire season I could easily see some less... sensible, shall we say, fans being upset with her because look, Oliver's over here pining and staying faithful and Felicity's being a cold hearted bitch not taking him back and dating some loser. (To make it perfectly clear, I would not be thinking that at all.) Kind of like a reversal of the Felicity dating Billy so Oliver doesn't look bad for dating someone thing. 

But, Susan is apparently supposed to be a good person, so that doesn't quite work. 

[CTrent29]

I believe there is a potential monster within Oliver.  I believe there is a potential monster within everyone.  I see nothing wrong with Oliver finally facing this aspect within himself - openly or honestly, instead of either dismissing, explaining away or dealing with it by going cold turkey.  I don't need some last minute addition to this story arc that Oliver was merely tricking Adrian or that he "believes" that he is a monster.  Why not have him face this aspect of himself for once?  This isn't the first time that his violent tendencies have been brought up?  Hell, it was brought up during the first Arrow/Flash crossover about two years ago.

Why is it important to believe that deep down, Oliver isn't capable of being a monster or committing terrible or stupid acts?

 

As for Oliver and Felicity . . . all I can say is that I never really warmed up to that romance.  That's all.

Edited March 27, 2017 by CTrent29

[BkWurm1]

45 minutes ago, CTrent29 said:

Why is it important to believe that deep down, Oliver isn't capable of being a monster or committing terrible or stupid acts?

I don't think anyone is saying he's not capable or hasn't committed acts that required letting the monster out.  But I think there is a difference between having had five years  of trauma and conditioning push him into that mind set than saying he's denying his current nature by not currently killing.  His confession and realization was past tense.  He LIKED it in the past.  The show has always shown that Oliver is capable of killing and torturing for what he saw as the greater good.  The supposed new info is that back in season one. part of him liked it and that in looking back Oliver has to accept that he didn't have purely altruistic motives and that yes, his choices were clouded by who those five years had shaped him to become.  But Oliver isn't an out of control monster now.  He isn't that same man that he was five years ago any more than he is the same man that he was five years before that.  

We saw who he was and we've seen who he is now and it's more of a retcon to try to claim he's still the same as he was in season one.  That's where the belief vs acceptance comes in.  He can accept who he was in the past, that's valid IMO and something that also may be hard for him to face, but it seems clear that he is not just grappling with who he was in the past but that  he is being driven by a fear of who he might still be in the present and the show I've watched has shown that Oliver has changed and he's a lot closer to the hero that he aspires to be.  

Could he do better?  Try harder?  Will it be hard for him to not take the easy way out (aka killing) Yes to it all, but before he gets to any of those questions, he needs to stop buying into Chase's premise that all he is is that monster.  That's just the fear talking.  That's the fallacy that he left believing.  

[CTrent29]

Are you against the idea that Oliver can be a monster, even when he calls himself committing violence for the "right reason"?  Barry has already called him on this during the first major Arrow/Flash crossover.  Oliver dismissed Barry's attitude with excuses.  Why not let him face it for once?  Why pretend that Oliver no longer has evil within him or pretend that he is no longer capable of monstrous behavior?  Because he is a costumed hero?  Or the lead character in an action-adventure television show?  Heroes and heroines are also human beings.  Or sentient beings.  Which means that evil will always reside within them, just as it resides in everyone.  Why not allow Oliver to finally face that evil within him?  Once he does that, perhaps he can finally learn to TRULY control that aspect of his nature.

[BkWurm1]

Because Oliver doesn't need to kill.  He is not out of control.  He already has been shown that he has control over that aspect of his nature in more recent seasons.  That is why him worrying if he currently is the monster is the fallacy.  Why insist he is still the same as he was five years ago or that he is something the show hasn't shown him to be? 

[thegirlsleuth]

Up until this last episode, I never got the sense that Oliver was a serial killer/took pleasure in killing.   Having traveled to his own heart of darkness, he had a "by any means necessary" attitude in the first season that was brutal.  But he's traveled out of that by reconnecting with his humanity through the people in his life-Diggle and Felicity, but also his sister, his mother, Tommy, and Laurel--to the point that when he started killing at the beginning of this season I found it jarring.  If I had seen that behavior in season one it would have fit, but not after the vow he made after Tommy's death or, more importantly, how he spared Slade's life a the end of season two. 

[AudienceofOne]

4 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

Because Oliver doesn't need to kill.  He is not out of control.  

He never was. The accusation in earlier seasons was that he was too quick to go for killing as an option. That's a hell of a big difference than using the Arrow persona as an excuse to thrill kill. I'm sorry, but resorting too quickly to violence is a hell of a big difference from killing for pleasure. I've seen every episode of this show. Oliver was extremely traumatised, constantly surrounded by enemies and it taught him to use violence as a first resort and to opt for murder too soon as a resolution to his problems. He took a great deal of satisfaction is defeating his enemies, even when he choose to kill them - which was never his first response.

So, no, Oliver never took the decision to kill because he liked killing. And he wasn't using his vigilante crusade as an excuse to scratch his "i enjoy killing" itch. That's just a fact. 

[ladylaw99]

I never got the impression Oliver like to kill or inflict violence.  I always felt violence was his first instinct due to the trauma he faced for 5 years.  If he enjoyed killing then he should have killed Slade.  Out of all the people he killed, you would think that Oliver was justified in killing Slade because of the violent murder of his mother.  If he enjoyed killing so much, why of all people didn't he kill Slade?

[CTrent29]

I'm sorry, but I don't agree with any of you.  Right now, I'm shaking my head at many of these comments, because I'm just shocked at what I'm reading in compare to what I have seen in regard to Oliver's own behavior in the both the past and in the recent flashback.  I simply cannot believe what I'm reading.  This is sad.

Edited March 27, 2017 by CTrent29

[Midori Ya]

15 minutes ago, CTrent29 said:

I'm sorry, but I don't agree with any of you.  Right now, I'm shaking my head at many of these comments, because I'm just shocked at what I'm reading in compare to what I have seen in regard to Oliver's own behavior in the both the past and in the recent flashback.  I simply cannot believe what I'm reading.  This is sad.

I always did think Oliver's choice to cheat on Laurel with her own sister showed that an especially cruel streak was present in him even before all the trauma from the island.

[GHScorpiosRule]

56 minutes ago, CTrent29 said:

I'm sorry, but I don't agree with any of you.  Right now, I'm shaking my head at many of these comments, because I'm just shocked at what I'm reading in compare to what I have seen in regard to Oliver's own behavior in the both the past and in the recent flashback.  I simply cannot believe what I'm reading.  This is sad.

Why is it sad? Because people who responded to your initial comments that Oliver "gets his rocks off by killing" by disagreeing and providing examples of why they disagree?

Oliver's behavior in the past, five years ago and in the recent past-is the same time frame. That is the recent flashback isn't from this or last year, but from five years ago, when he was tortured and forced to learn how to use torture himself and kill.

Your comments seem to indicate that he gets a savage and gleeful pleasure when he does kill, and I've never seen that.  And others have also stated how Oliver is different from say, Slade, Chase.

I don't think (and I'm not trying to speak for anyone else here) that I have blinders when it comes to Oliver, and I don't think we all have to agree about everything. 

[statsgirl]

12 hours ago, CTrent29 said:

Why is it important to believe that deep down, Oliver isn't capable of being a monster or committing terrible or stupid acts?

I don't think it's important to believe it so much as it's inconsistent with his behaviour of the past four seasons.

Oliver cheated on Laurel with Sara was because she offered, not because he specifically targeted Sara to hurt Laurel.  He was willing to cheat on her with anyone who offered.  It's callous and selfish but I wouldn't say it's especially cruel.

11 hours ago, CTrent29 said:

Are you against the idea that Oliver can be a monster, even when he calls himself committing violence for the "right reason"?  Barry has already called him on this during the first major Arrow/Flash crossover.  Oliver dismissed Barry's attitude with excuses.  Why not let him face it for once?  Why pretend that Oliver no longer has evil within him or pretend that he is no longer capable of monstrous behavior?

Barry was extraordinarily naive back then.  Ask him how he feels now that he's met real evil.

I think where we differ is that you believe that anyone can enjoy inflicting pain so of course Oliver would and his actions have proved it.  I think psychological studies have shown that that it isn't true that everyone does. On the show, a number of times when Oliver could have inflicted pain, he didn't, nor did he show any pleasure in killing or torturing.  Maybe the General in s3 but that's because he killed Akio.  But Oliver never even showed the kind of pleasure in hurting someone that James Fallon talked about in himself.

Mengele was the kind of monster you're talking about.  He experimented on children deliberately operating without anesthetic because he liked to hear their screams of pain. Oliver isn't even in the same universe.

[Midori Ya]

21 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

Oliver cheated on Laurel with Sara was because she offered, not because he specifically targeted Sara to hurt Laurel.  He was willing to cheat on her with anyone who offered.  It's callous and selfish but I wouldn't say it's especially cruel.

 

Eh, agree to disagree. It's precisely because he did have options other than Sara to cheat with - such as Samantha, and all those other girls he slept with that Laurel and Sara discussed once - that it was especially cruel. Sara offered but he didn't have to take her up on it. So yeah, I think that shows he had a real cruel streak.

[Hiveminder]

1 hour ago, Midori Ya said:

Eh, agree to disagree. It's precisely because he did have options other than Sara to cheat with - such as Samantha, and all those other girls he slept with that Laurel and Sara discussed once - that it was especially cruel. Sara offered but he didn't have to take her up on it. So yeah, I think that shows he had a real cruel streak.

We've never been told his thought process behind cheating with Sara. If he cheated with Sara specifically because she was Laurel's sister and he wanted to hurt Laurel, then it was cruel. If it was because (as all previous evidence indicates) Sara was hot, willing, and available it was self centered and extremely thoughtless. 

[ketose]

I find it hard to apply conventional morality to Oliver Queen. Besides the fact that his father killed himself and another guy to save Oliver, Oliver's split-second decision got Shado killed and that he was forced to learn torture with a ticking time bomb situation, all this occurs in a world with magic, magical technology and circumstances that dismantle everything Oliver tries to do to get out. Oliver was out last season. Felicity and everyone else talked him into coming back. Ultimately, he saved the world by doing so. How can we even think of him as a vigilante at this point?

Edited March 27, 2017 by ketose

[catrox14]

15 hours ago, CTrent29 said:

nce he does that, perhaps he can finally learn to TRULY control that aspect of his nature.

OR maybe we'll learn that Oliver does NOT have that as a part of his "nature" at all so there is nothing to control.

If this was "his nature" he wouldn't have balked at killing a bird.  Oliver was turned into this. He didn't carry a "Dark Passenger" throughout his life. 

Why are you so certain this is actually an aspect of Oliver that has existed all along? I'm not being snarky. You're posing questions but I'd like to know where in s1 you saw this monster.

[catrox14]

2 hours ago, Midori Ya said:

Eh, agree to disagree. It's precisely because he did have options other than Sara to cheat with - such as Samantha, and all those other girls he slept with that Laurel and Sara discussed once - that it was especially cruel. Sara offered but he didn't have to take her up on it. So yeah, I think that shows he had a real cruel streak.

When was it said that Oliver did this specifically to hurt Laurel? IMO he was just a stupid, horny, cocky dudebro who did it because Sara made herself available to him. 

[BkWurm1]

2 hours ago, Midori Ya said:

Eh, agree to disagree. It's precisely because he did have options other than Sara to cheat with - such as Samantha, and all those other girls he slept with that Laurel and Sara discussed once - that it was especially cruel. Sara offered but he didn't have to take her up on it. So yeah, I think that shows he had a real cruel streak.

Claiming a cruel streak rests upon the notion that he thought Laurel would ever know.  He may have deluded himself over if she'd ever find out but he very specifically assures Sara that Laurel will NEVER know.  His actions were selfish and dumb and did prove ultimately very hurtful but his INTENTIONS were to keep Laurel in the dark.  Still a morally awful choice, but he wasn't with Sara to rub Laurel's nose in it.  Otherwise he'd have planned for Laurel to find out.  

[tennisgurl]

I still see Oliver's need to kill or hurt people as a desire to get some power and control in his life, after spending years being beaten, tortured, manipulated, imprisoned, used, almost murdered, and seeing innocent people and people he cared about hurt and killed constantly. Its not that he was blood thirsty of psychotic, its that he got a feeling of grim satisfaction in being able to strike back at Bad People who had hurt him or others. I'm not saying what he did was right, and it was very much a bad path (like skinning the guy alive in the flashback, or his habit if killing random mooks in season 1) that could have gotten even worse if he hadn't met Dig and Felicity and reconnected with his family and made more personal connections in the world. I think its totally plausible that Oliver, in his messed up, self hating, still clearly suffering from PTSD brain, would conflict that dark feeling of satisfaction with sadism. As for Oliver cheating on Laurel with Sara, it was a majorly jerkass thing to do, but I don't think he was trying to be deliberately cruel to Laurel. He just thought Sara was hot and willing, so he went for it. Its been well documented that pre-island Ollie was a brainless fratboy asshole, but not a monster. And, while what Oliver and Sara did was VERY wrong and hurtful to Laurel, I think they more than made up for it karma wise. "Cheat on your girlfriend/with your sisters boyfriend? Here's years of horrific emotional and physical trauma, and being turned into an emotionally scared killing machine!"

Really, its kind of amazing Oliver is as highly functioning as he is, after everything he's been though, and never having seen a therapist or anything.

Edited March 28, 2017 by tennisgurl