S01.E18: Moonshadow

[sasha206]

13 hours ago, possibilities said:

RE how is she pulling her weight if her work is so unnecessary: she feels like she is not as needed as she used to be, which I think is reasonable, as her children are teenagers, not toddlers. But, either way, it sounds like some people think she should never get a break. If Jack never took a vacation from his job, people would think that was unreasonable. There is no evidence that they are in dire straits like in some families, where it really is necessary to be at the grindstone all the time and there's no slack to be had.

I personally don't think it would be wrong if Jack wanted to take a golf vacation with Miguel, either. He never asked for that, but I know lots of people who take vacations with as well as separately from their spouses.

Two week golf vacations that includes an ex?

I think that's really the distinction.  He was annoyed but okay with her going on tour in previous episodes.  The uneasiness came when he learned, through the ex, that there was a previous relationship.  And this was after he there seemed to be chemistry on stage between his wife and the ex.  

I personally hate the Jack character and think Rebecca is written much more like a normal human but I think his reaction to the tour itself is understandable (not the drinking and driving and bar fight).

12 hours ago, laurakaye said:

 But 18 episodes in, I feel like the show peaked with those first couple of episodes, and from that point on, the "OMG Cry-Fest All the Feelz!!" took over.  The writers are pulling out every trick in the book to make viewers cry, but not giving us enough to really get invested.  I can't help but see each one of them as a stereotype - the saint, the pretty boy, the sassy one, etc.  So I don't care what happens to them, because none of them ring true as fully-fleshed out people.

YES!  That's perfectly said.  I feel like this show has become so incredibly manipulative.  And it appears that none of the characters are anything but impulsive. Don't like your career?  Quit at the drop of a hat! Family member seems upset on the phone, jump off the stage and run to him!  Experience a death?  Adopt a child!  Have a couple dates with a horndog who tells your brother he's all about big gestures?  Get engaged!  

Yeah, I know the show can't be Seinfeld-like and be about nothing but the monologues, the schmaltz, the surprise twists, the mysterious dragged out death, is all making this show jump the shark quick.  

Edited March 17, 2017 by sasha206

[Optimist48]

19 minutes ago, laurakaye said:

(regarding Rebecca, after the fight, looking wistfully at the hallway at the top of the stairs): You're kidding me.  I got it right?!  But even though I got it right, I found her pointedly gazing at that particular area of hallway worthy of a hefty eye-roll.  I have never seen a show where the characters place so much heavy emphasis on certain places, or traditions, or remember down to the smallest detail how a certain event took place 20 years ago, etc.  So if Jack had been sitting there, waiting for Rebecca at the top of the stairs, she would've forgiven him?  And because he had the audacity to be sitting on the couch, she asked him to leave?  Wow...that's a mighty big leap for the writers to expect viewers to swallow.

That's not really what Moore said in the interview, though.  She said the fact they Jack was not outside the door was simply another sign for Rebecca that their relationship was in a bad place it had never been before and that they needed some space.  

That's very different from saying that the reason she asked for space was because he wasn't outside the door.

[sasha206]

13 minutes ago, Optimist48 said:

That's not really what Moore said in the interview, though.  She said the fact they Jack was not outside the door was simply another sign for Rebecca that their relationship was in a bad place it had never been before and that they needed some space.  

That's very different from saying that the reason she asked for space was because he wasn't outside the door.

That said, I still agree with the poster who said she had "never seen a show where the characters place so much heavy emphasis on certain places, or traditions, or remember down to the smallest detail how a certain event took place 20 years ago, etc." 

[Katy M]

14 minutes ago, sasha206 said:

That said, I still agree with the poster who said she had "never seen a show where the characters place so much heavy emphasis on certain places, or traditions, or remember down to the smallest detail how a certain event took place 20 years ago, etc." 

Cold Case.  I know it's usually surrounding a tragic incident, but I still find it hard to believe that nobody is getting any details wrong, 5, 10, even 50 years after the even sometimes.

[Lady Calypso]

52 minutes ago, sasha206 said:

Two week golf vacations that includes an ex?

I think, for me, it's the fact that Rebecca doesn't even consider Ben an ex that makes it a little more complicated. She even said that she only dated him for two months when they were nineteen. For a woman who's in her mid forties at that point, nineteen is probably feeling like a lifetime away, and two months is barely a blip on the dating pool radar. It's several years before she met Jack and she showed no signs of pining over Ben. Should she have told him? Well, probably. It would have been the right thing to do after twenty+ years of being together, so that is on her. But Jack's issues stem from a lot more than just Rebecca not telling him about Ben. He even said that he was not happy with Rebecca going out on tour, but he just didn't tell it to her face. This finale actually brought to the forefront the real reason why Jack got so upset. He didn't see Rebecca's singing as something that she should be pursuing as more than a hobby. He just happened to have a crutch with Ben being her ex boyfriend. 

I guess I just feel like Jack showed that he can't trust his wife if he's that intimidated by Ben (and I see his reaction as being more than her lying) and there are way deeper problems that go beyond this tour. Too bad they didn't show it well enough over the last eighteen episodes and they insisted on having fifteen of the episodes about how perfect Jack is and how much of a monster Rebecca is. 

1 hour ago, sasha206 said:

I personally don't find Jack's annoyance over her 2 week tour something terrible.  This "tour" seems to be more of a great hobby, not a money maker.  And if the tour goes well, isn't she invested into a band that will need her?  What happens then? Does she tour much more without bringing in a real income?  If she loves singing, can't she do it local?  Give singing lessons?  And it seems like he was annoyed but okay with it until he sensed an attraction with her former boyfriend.

Maybe, but Jack knows that singing professionally, or at least to some degree of success, has been Rebecca's dream for as long as he's known her, and even longer. I don't find it unreasonable for her to want to try out a two week tour to live out her dreams. I don't think she would have gotten more successful than a two week tour, but they hadn't even begun to cross that bridge yet. I don't think it helps that we've had scenes of Jack giving up his own professional dreams for the kids' futures, so Rebecca's act looks selfish in comparison. This show is 100% uneven when it comes to Rebecca and Jack's portrayal. 

I do think Jack's allowed to be annoyed. I'd be annoyed if I was in his position. However, I still stand by my point that Rebecca is not this monster for wanting to do this two week tour, to accomplish something that she's dreamed about for most of her life. I would have wanted Jack to get his dream of owning his own business if he had lived long enough. 

Also I bet that the kids (at least Kevin and Kate) were 100% alright with Mom going away for a couple of weeks. Having a couple of weeks to have the "Fun Parent" around without so many rules is any teenager's dream. 

[possibilities]

45 minutes ago, sasha206 said:

Two week golf vacations that includes an ex?

Two weeks alone golfing with an ex? Probably not. But honestly, depending on the situation I might actually not care. I have exes I would socialize with and never get back together with in a million years.

Two weeks touring with a group that includes the ex, who he only dated for 2 months 25 years ago, when the group is performing in public, in front of crowds? Sure, no problem.

I said "group" because I don't really picture Jack in a band. But he could be on some other kind of team... I don't really think of golf as a group sport, but if it was? Sure.

Or, he could also go away with some kind of work group-- he currently works every day with a staff member who openly flirts with him, and even drinks with her after hours, so if the firm went to a conference and she was there, that's life.

I guess I just don't get the whole jealous, controlling, panicked about infidelity thing. It seems so exhausting and irrational to me. I know people do stupid stuff, and get tempted by others, but I just don't see it as being that big of a deal that it should loom ominously over a serious relationship, or be worth the kind of paranoia and prophylactic outrage we saw in Jack. Either you trust your relationship or you don't, and if you don't, then you need to deal with what is going on between you and your partner, and not just react hysterically and bluster around like a maniac. That behavior doesn't make anyone want to be more reliable or committed, it just makes them feel like you're an insecure person who thinks they can control you with intimidation and treat you like an unreliable piece of property, not a human being they care about and respect.

[Clanstarling]

All things creative are not equal. What fulfills one person will not do a thing for another. And it's not always just the doing of it that reaches your soul.

Sometimes the environment in which the creative activity is done is as important as part of the fulfillment as the activity itself. For example, when it comes to music, for some, the playing of the music is what they love. For others, playing informally (not performing) with another group of musicians is just the tick. For others, performing and connecting to an audience is part of the joy of it.

Anyway, my take is that Rebecca needs the audience as much as the singing - and that's hard to do during the school day.

I don't think anyone disagrees that raising children is an important role. I think the main bone of contention is whether or not the role of parent is your entire life, and whether you're allowed something of your own. I was raised by a suffocating parent, so my approach to child rearing was more "mothering not hovering". But I think every family is different, and it is up to them to decide what best suits their family. I'm not going to judge anyone for their decisions about what works for them.

16 minutes ago, possibilities said:

Two weeks touring with a group that includes the ex, who he only dated for 2 months 25 years ago, when the group is performing in public, in front of crowds? Sure, no problem.

I said "group" because I don't really picture Jack in a band. But he could be on some other kind of team... I don't really think of golf as a group sport, but if it was? Sure.

I agree. And as for Rebecca "dating" the guy - we don't even know what kind of a dating relationship they had. Clearly it was casual on Rebecca's part. When my husband and I got together, we told each other about all of our previous relationships. I always assumed everybody did this.

Edited March 17, 2017 by Clanstarling

[sasha206]

22 minutes ago, possibilities said:

Two weeks alone golfing with an ex? Probably not. But honestly, depending on the situation I might actually not care. I have exes I would socialize with and never get back together with in a million years.

Two weeks touring with a group that includes the ex, who he only dated for 2 months 25 years ago, when the group is performing in public, in front of crowds? Sure, no problem.

I said "group" because I don't really picture Jack in a band. But he could be on some other kind of team... I don't really think of golf as a group sport, but if it was? Sure.

Or, he could also go away with some kind of work group-- he currently works every day with a staff member who openly flirts with him, and even drinks with her after hours, so if the firm went to a conference and she was there, that's life.

I guess I just don't get the whole jealous, controlling, panicked about infidelity thing. It seems so exhausting and irrational to me. I know people do stupid stuff, and get tempted by others, but I just don't see it as being that big of a deal that it should loom ominously over a serious relationship, or be worth the kind of paranoia and prophylactic outrage we saw in Jack. Either you trust your relationship or you don't, and if you don't, then you need to deal with what is going on between you and your partner, and not just react hysterically and bluster around like a maniac. That behavior doesn't make anyone want to be more reliable or committed, it just makes them feel like you're an insecure person who thinks they can control you with intimidation and treat you like an unreliable piece of property, not a human being they care about and respect.

I get what you're saying...but I think he sees them making eyes at each other during a song and then learns from the ex that he's an ex.  And she kept it from him.

But I get your point about to her it probably meant nothing.

That said, I do think what the show seems to be hinting at is there's a mutual attraction that is still sort of there.  Rebecca turned him down but certainly in those couple of times we've seen them interact, there did seem to be an underlying attraction.  And I think that's what Jack picked up on.  

I do wonder though if the show is going to delve more into whether Jack at one point may have suspected that Becca was hiding something big -- maybe he didn't know the secret she was keeping about Randall's birth dad, but maybe he thought there was something she was not being truthful about at some point and he has an overall trust issue with her.

Edited March 17, 2017 by sasha206

[SlackerInc]

1 hour ago, Katy M said:

And this is why I think TV shows should shoot the entire season before airing. Don't let the fans influence in any way.

I'm torn on that.  I guess it depends if the fans are giving good advice!

[Aloeonatable]

18 minutes ago, possibilities said:

That behavior doesn't make anyone want to be more reliable or committed, it just makes them feel like you're an insecure person who thinks they can control you with intimidation and treat you like an unreliable piece of property, not a human being they care about and respect.

Jack is insecure. We've seen that indicated many times throughout the season. There may not be a reason when it comes to his relationship with Rebecca, but his jealousy/insecurity has its roots in his relationship with his father. His father said he was basically worthless. If you have to hear that for 18+ years, you might believe it. 

[sasha206]

26 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

I think, for me, it's the fact that Rebecca doesn't even consider Ben an ex that makes it a little more complicated. She even said that she only dated him for two months when they were nineteen. For a woman who's in her mid forties at that point, nineteen is probably feeling like a lifetime away, and two months is barely a blip on the dating pool radar. It's several years before she met Jack and she showed no signs of pining over Ben. Should she have told him? Well, probably. It would have been the right thing to do after twenty+ years of being together, so that is on her. But Jack's issues stem from a lot more than just Rebecca not telling him about Ben. He even said that he was not happy with Rebecca going out on tour, but he just didn't tell it to her face. This finale actually brought to the forefront the real reason why Jack got so upset. He didn't see Rebecca's singing as something that she should be pursuing as more than a hobby. He just happened to have a crutch with Ben being her ex boyfriend. 

I guess I just feel like Jack showed that he can't trust his wife if he's that intimidated by Ben (and I see his reaction as being more than her lying) and there are way deeper problems that go beyond this tour. Too bad they didn't show it well enough over the last eighteen episodes and they insisted on having fifteen of the episodes about how perfect Jack is and how much of a monster Rebecca is. 

Maybe, but Jack knows that singing professionally, or at least to some degree of success, has been Rebecca's dream for as long as he's known her, and even longer. I don't find it unreasonable for her to want to try out a two week tour to live out her dreams. I don't think she would have gotten more successful than a two week tour, but they hadn't even begun to cross that bridge yet. I don't think it helps that we've had scenes of Jack giving up his own professional dreams for the kids' futures, so Rebecca's act looks selfish in comparison. This show is 100% uneven when it comes to Rebecca and Jack's portrayal. 

I do think Jack's allowed to be annoyed. I'd be annoyed if I was in his position. However, I still stand by my point that Rebecca is not this monster for wanting to do this two week tour, to accomplish something that she's dreamed about for most of her life. I would have wanted Jack to get his dream of owning his own business if he had lived long enough. 

Also I bet that the kids (at least Kevin and Kate) were 100% alright with Mom going away for a couple of weeks. Having a couple of weeks to have the "Fun Parent" around without so many rules is any teenager's dream. 

I totally agree -- I don't think Rebecca is a monster either.  I just didn't think that Jack's annoyance was unreasonable.  So to me, this whole one huge blow up and he's living with Miguel odd.  I could see if his drinking was more of a constant drumbeat of the show, but it's not.  Or if his jealousy was a constant drumbeat of the show, but we haven't seen it.

[Lady Calypso]

4 minutes ago, sasha206 said:

I totally agree -- I don't think Rebecca is a monster either.  I just didn't think that Jack's annoyance was unreasonable.  So to me, this whole one huge blow up and he's living with Miguel odd.  I could see if his drinking was more of a constant drumbeat of the show, but it's not.  Or if his jealousy was a constant drumbeat of the show, but we haven't seen it.

Oh, I totally agree that it was rushed. The writing was a major issue these last four episodes or so because they were so focused on making Jack look great. They clearly wanted a "twist" of them separating so the audience can watch them fall back in love with each other before Jack's death, or to make Miguel/Rebecca an actual possibility without disrespecting Jack, but they also wanted Jack to make this Great, Heroic, True Love speech to keep him in that Good Guy status. It just made Rebecca look like she was acting hastily because of the poor setup. 

[laurakaye]

3 minutes ago, sasha206 said:

I totally agree -- I don't think Rebecca is a monster either.  I just didn't think that Jack's annoyance was unreasonable.  So to me, this whole one huge blow up and he's living with Miguel odd.  I could see if his drinking was more of a constant drumbeat of the show, but it's not.  Or if his jealousy was a constant drumbeat of the show, but we haven't seen it.

Yes, and adding to that, I haven't really seen Rebecca's driving desire to sing, either.  As a poster pointed out somewhere in this thread, if she absolutely needed this creative outlet, why not show her singing at church?  Or in some other type of venue - even karaoke night at the local bowling alley or something?  Were we given any hints that she felt that being a wife and mother was derailing her promising singing career?  I don't remember any.  If this is a driving part of her personality, it was kept hidden from us, only to have it become a major plot point out of nowhere.

[Katy M]

46 minutes ago, SlackerInc said:

I'm torn on that.  I guess it depends if the fans are giving good advice!

To a certain extent, I don't think it matters. It's kind of like a "too many cooks" situation.   If the fans want one thing, and so the network insists upon it, yet it's not the writer's vision, it's probably going to be bad.

[JudyObscure]

2 hours ago, laurakaye said:

 I have never seen a show where the characters place so much heavy emphasis on certain places, or traditions, or remember down to the smallest detail how a certain event took place 20 years ago, etc.

Seriously! I would honestly rather have my husband get drunk one time  and punch some guy, than make me go through that ordeal of cheese crackers, long walks and funny hats  every Thanksgiving of my life.  I never thought Jack was perfect.

[Katy M]

1 minute ago, JudyObscure said:

Seriously! I would honestly rather have my husband get drunk one time  and punch some guy, than make me go through that ordeal of cheese crackers, long walks and funny hats  every Thanksgiving of my life.  I never thought Jack was perfect.

I've never thought Jack was perfect, either, but I think the Thanksgiving traditions are sweet.  Because every one of those kids hated Thanksgiving prior to that point.  Yeah, it's a little hokey.  But, it's to remind them of the turnaround.

[kili]

Quote

Seriously! I would honestly rather have my husband get drunk one time  and punch some guy, than make me go through that ordeal of cheese crackers, long walks and funny hats  every Thanksgiving of my life.  I never thought Jack was perfect.

Isn't the continuation of the Pilgrim Rick traditions on Randall? He was the one who asked to have the same Thanksgiving the next year (probably because he didn't want to go to Grandma's house again and be treated like an outsider). Randall was also the one orchestrating the tradition following at the modern day Thanksgiving.

The ordeal of the cheese crackers is actually worse than you make it sound - they need to be broken up and served on hot dogs. Blergh!  It's better than starving children, but does not need to be replicated for the next 30 years. I feel sorry for the people who will be hosting TIU premiere parties next fall - this is one dish they must serve.

[Katy M]

4 minutes ago, kili said:

The ordeal of the cheese crackers is actually worse than you make it sound - they need to be broken up and served on hot dogs. Blergh!  It's better than starving children, but does not need to be replicated for the next 30 years. I feel sorry for the people who will be hosting TIU premiere parties next fall - this is one dish they must serve.

Yeah, that part they could leave out, but I love the idea of the walk and the movie and the stupid pilgrim hat, because it's just a nice nostalgia thing for the whole family and something they can also repeat for the next gen.

[Crs97]

Throughout these nine pages we have analyzed Ben and Rebecca's almost kiss a lot:  Did she pucker?  Do they have an underlying attraction?  Did she send out mixed messages by holding his hand near his waist?  Should she have sung?  Should she have just gone home?  Should she have seen it coming?

Have any of us asked why the secretary felt comfortable making a pass at Jack?

I almost wish Jack would have told Rebecca about Ben's comment that they had been serious enough to discuss marriage, only to discover it was a general comment in a group setting and that most of their "dates" during those two months were actually casual group events where they were technically on a  date in that they arrived and left together, but they were almost never alone together.  Ben definitely seemed like he was trying to puff up the "relationship" in order to drive a wedge between Jack and Rebecca.  Jack should have trusted what they had.

[Optimist48]

2 minutes ago, Crs97 said:

Throughout these nine pages we have analyzed Ben and Rebecca's almost kiss a lot:  Did she pucker?  Do they have an underlying attraction?  Did she send out mixed messages by holding his hand near his waist?  Should she have sung?  Should she have just gone home?  Should she have seen it coming?

Have any of us asked why the secretary felt comfortable making a pass at Jack?

I almost wish Jack would have told Rebecca about Ben's comment that they had been serious enough to discuss marriage, only to discover it was a general comment in a group setting and that most of their "dates" during those two months were actually casual group events where they were technically on a  date in that they arrived and left together, but they were almost never alone together.  Ben definitely seemed like he was trying to puff up the "relationship" in order to drive a wedge between Jack and Rebecca.  Jack should have trusted what they had.

Also, I wouldn't characterize what Ben said as the two discussing marriage.  It seemed something more along the lines of Rebecca saying casually, "I don't plan on ever getting married," which would just be a general statement, and not anything particular to their brief 2-month fling. 

[Clanstarling]

16 minutes ago, Crs97 said:

Throughout these nine pages we have analyzed Ben and Rebecca's almost kiss a lot:  Did she pucker?  Do they have an underlying attraction?  Did she send out mixed messages by holding his hand near his waist?  Should she have sung?  Should she have just gone home?  Should she have seen it coming?

Have any of us asked why the secretary felt comfortable making a pass at Jack?

I almost wish Jack would have told Rebecca about Ben's comment that they had been serious enough to discuss marriage, only to discover it was a general comment in a group setting and that most of their "dates" during those two months were actually casual group events where they were technically on a  date in that they arrived and left together, but they were almost never alone together.  Ben definitely seemed like he was trying to puff up the "relationship" in order to drive a wedge between Jack and Rebecca.  Jack should have trusted what they had.

Good point. It boils down to trust. If Jack doesn't trust Rebecca, why is she his Madonna?

One of my favorite moments in Friday Night Lights, when some guy (a fellow teacher I think) kissed Tammy, and when the Coach found out about it, he just laughed. Because he had absolute faith in Tammy. Now that's what a solid marriage looks like.

[MaiSoCalled]

1 hour ago, sasha206 said:

I could see if his drinking was more of a constant drumbeat of the show, but it's not.  

I feel like the show is trying to give Jack an alcohol problem that the Big 3 don't know about. It's clearly enough of an issue that Miguel knows Jack doesn't drink, but not enough that we have received any indication about it in present scenes. 

I wonder if his death is alcohol related, and Kate/Miguel cover that up to protect his reputation with the kids. 

[ShadowFacts]

1 hour ago, laurakaye said:

Yes, and adding to that, I haven't really seen Rebecca's driving desire to sing, either.  As a poster pointed out somewhere in this thread, if she absolutely needed this creative outlet, why not show her singing at church?  Or in some other type of venue - even karaoke night at the local bowling alley or something?  Were we given any hints that she felt that being a wife and mother was derailing her promising singing career?  I don't remember any.  If this is a driving part of her personality, it was kept hidden from us, only to have it become a major plot point out of nowhere.

It pretty much came out of nowhere.  There was a small hint of something amiss, that we hadn't previously seen, when Randall had his mushroom trip.  I can't remember the lines, but Jack says something to the effect that you know your mother had her problems, something like that.  It suggested that the kids were aware of something, since that was supposed to be something from Randall's deeper consciousness. 

I think the intensity of Jack's possessiveness was pretty much out of the blue, but as Aloeonatable said, we saw how Jack's father treated him.  It is easy to see why he wanted to be a great father and have an idealized marriage, but maybe easy to miss that the negative aspects of his parents' marriage and his father's behavior imprinted on him, below the surface.  There's a script running in his head that he has to counter and mostly he does but sometimes he doesn't manage it. 

[sasha206]

I'm so glad that I'm not the only one who is having issues with the shows writing.  I thought it was the best thing since sliced bread after the first several issues.   And I'll keep watching it to see how things resolve.  But it does frustrate me! 

[Guest]

22 hours ago, sasha206 said:

That's the problem I had with this.  It seems unusual to me that two people who are sooooooo in love in nearly every episode with the exception of when Rebecca was pregnant and bitchy (but hey, happy ending) suddenly have such a major fight that Rebecca's first thought is he needs to leave the house.  It would've been much more realistic to start showing more cracks in the system  in episodes leading up to this.  I mean, if you're married to Jesus Christ and he has one night of being off the wagon and acting stupidly because his wife is on tour with former boyfriend, do you really kick him out of the house?  

 

I think they did a decent job of showing cracks leading up to this fight.  There was the episode with the football game where Jack forgot to kiss her hello/goodbye and they were clearly going in separate directions (a foreshadowing of her feeling overlooked), his planning a huge romantic gesture for her and at the end of it, her announcing she wants to go on tour, etc.  I think the show has just had so many overplayed moments that the more subtle ones get forgotten.

4 hours ago, Katy M said:

And this is why I think TV shows should shoot the entire season before airing. Don't let the fans influence in any way.

Unfortunately, even shooting it one way doesn't stop the promos from changing based on fan influence. It might eliminate some of the plots if they are changing them, but I think big plot points would still be made overwrought by the promos.  (Like the promos for "Memphis" ruined that episode for me.)

[Clanstarling]

I think they've shown clearly enough that Jack has the potential for a serious alcohol problem. He has a father who downs (well, I'm not a drinker, is that a fifth?) of hard alcohol every night. He spent one year drinking too much during their marriage, and has started drinking - and driving drunk. He may, or may not, have the genetic propensity for alcoholism, but he sure grew up with a bad example of how to deal with life's problems.

My guess is that he tends to go to alcohol when he's deeply upset about something he feels he can't change. Wasn't that year when he drank to much the same time they put Randall in the private school, and Jack gave up his dream of owning a business? Now Rebecca wants to try to make some of her dreams come true, and he starts drinking again. Maybe it's as much resentment and self-pity as jealousy.

He's made an admirable effort to be nothing like his father, but deep down, he's still got some of that. (speaking from my own experience) Drinking because he's unhappy, being violent, and dismissing his wife's dream - that's his dad, just like Rebecca said. I think when he's at a distance from it, he'll be horrified how much he acted like his father.

Edited March 17, 2017 by Clanstarling

[Optimist48]

I thought the show did a decent job of laying the groundwork for Rebecca's renewed passion for singing.  In Episode 7 (which is the first time we saw the kids as teenagers and when Rebecca first joins the band) she tells Jack that she has forgotten how much she had missed singing.  It seems like one of those things that came to the fore after years of being a SAHM and now reaching the point where the kids are becoming more self-sufficient and will be out of the house sooner than they know it.  In other words, it make sense to me that Rebecca was able to suppress this part of herself when the kids were younger and she was typically exhausted.  Now that she is starting to have more free time, coupled with the simple passage of time and her reaching mid-40's, it gets her thinking about what she wants to do with this next phase of her life. 

Of course, episode 7 aired back in November, so a lot of viewers may have forgotten some of these details which were meant to lay the groundwork for this arc.  

[ProudMary]

2 hours ago, sasha206 said:

I get what you're saying...but I think he sees them making eyes at each other during a song and then learns from the ex that he's an ex.  And she kept it from him.

But I get your point about to her it probably meant nothing.

That said, I do think what the show seems to be hinting at is there's a mutual attraction that is still sort of there.  Rebecca turned him down but certainly in those couple of times we've seen them interact, there did seem to be an underlying attraction.  And I think that's what Jack picked up on.  

I do wonder though if the show is going to delve more into whether Jack at one point may have suspected that Becca was hiding something big -- maybe he didn't know the secret she was keeping about Randall's birth dad, but maybe he thought there was something she was not being truthful about at some point and he has an overall trust issue with her.

What if sometime during their marriage, not-so-Saint Jack had an affair of his own with an ex?  Perhaps something the writers haven't seen fit to tell us as of yet.  Guilt ridden Jack could be projecting his own feelings to Rebecca.
Also, right from the beginning of the 'Becca and the Band story arc, I felt that the on-stage flirting was just part of the act, at least for Rebecca.  JMO, but I never got the feeling that Ben's feelings toward Rebecca were reciprocated.

[sasha206]

4 minutes ago, ProudMary said:

What if sometime during their marriage, not-so-Saint Jack had an affair of his own with an ex?  Perhaps something the writers haven't seen fit to tell us as of yet.  Guilt ridden Jack could be projecting his own feelings to Rebecca.
Also, right from the beginning of the 'Becca and the Band story arc, I felt that the on-stage flirting was just part of the act, at least for Rebecca.  JMO, but I never got the feeling that Ben's feelings toward Rebecca were reciprocated.

I posted a while back that I thought the scene (was it episode 1?) where Jack was drinking with Miguel that he seemed on the precipice of an affair,

[Clanstarling]

2 minutes ago, ProudMary said:

Also, right from the beginning of the 'Becca and the Band story arc, I felt that the on-stage flirting was just part of the act, at least for Rebecca.  JMO, but I never got the feeling that Ben's feelings toward Rebecca were reciprocated.

See, I never saw that as flirting. I saw that as members of the band enjoying what they're doing. I know it's clear that it's more than that for Ben. But I've seen that type of look between band members many times, and here it's just given more weight because it's a woman and a man. (which doesn't mean, of course, that there aren't many times when it's more than that. If anything, the Fleetwood Mac story is a cautionary tale in that regard).

[sasha206]

30 minutes ago, deaja said:

I think they did a decent job of showing cracks leading up to this fight.  There was the episode with the football game where Jack forgot to kiss her hello/goodbye and they were clearly going in separate directions (a foreshadowing of her feeling overlooked), his planning a huge romantic gesture for her and at the end of it, her announcing she wants to go on tour, etc.  I think the show has just had so many overplayed moments that the more subtle ones get forgotten.

 

That's a very good point.  The big romantic gestures just tend to drown out everything else.

[Cardie]

7 hours ago, ShadowFacts said:

9 hours ago, SlackerInc said:

Wait, those earliest flashbacks were from 1972?  How do you know?  I thought they were more like '76.

I think somebody upthread mentioned noticing the date on the wedding invitation on Rebecca's coffee table. 

Also, Jack's dad referred to him being 28, and we know Jack was 36 in 1980.

[wonderwoman]

So, I've had a few days to absorb the episode and the rather daunting volume of comments (here and elsewhere). My initial reaction as I was watching was boredom. Frankly, I didn't care if I found out how Jack died in this episode. The circumstances of his death are not what kept me tuning in every week. (Props to whoever mentioned the possibility that fan interest was what drove how the show pitched itself. After all, the writers set a high bar for big plot twists in the pilot:). What kept me watching was how the characters and their stories connected at the various stages of their lives. And that's what was missing in this episode. Had Jack and Rebecca's argument been interspersed with Randall, Kate and Kevin's stories, I don't think there would have been this much blowback (although I have to say, the relatively even numbers of Jack and Rebecca supporters indicate that the writers pretty much nailed the emotional authenticity).

What it comes down to, as a friend pointed out to me: "The show broke its implicit contract with viewers; it was a bait-and-switch." As for shooting all the episodes before any air, I'm of two minds: Sometimes fan response is on the mark; sometimes it's not. However, I do wonder if this episode was still in production when "Memphis" aired. I doubt it, but I don't know why the writers would have thought that an episode centered around Jack and Rebecca's relationship would work, given the ensemble nature of the storytelling. To go outside the ensemble model, an episode would have to be as good as "Memphis" and this one wasn't even close.  

These past few days have left me drained, so I'm out of words (for now:)

Okay, a few more thoughts. Another source of the blowback was how unrelentlingly dark this episode was. Sad as "Memphis" was, it wasn't dark; there were moments of humor and joy. "Moonshadow" was one emotional body blow after another: Jack and his parents; the poker game (which went on way too long); the fight in Cleveland; Jack contemplating robbing the bar with a character we never saw before (and likely won't again); then the final fight at home. 

Too much darkess and not enough hope. And, I shed not a tear. While it might have worked as an episode in the middle of the season (maybe), it was no way to end the first season. Don't know what the writers were thinking. 

Edited March 18, 2017 by wonderwoman
spelling and grammer matter

[Trooper York]

It is pretty interesting how pro-Rebecca posters have to imagine horrible stuff that Jack did to justify Rebecca's decision to throw him out of the house he paid for by selling off his dreams.

Jack is portrayed as a blue collar guy from the get go.  He worked with his hands. He was just back from serving in the war and living with his parents. Partly because he feels he has to protect his Mom from his abusive alcoholic Dad. Then he meets a artsy fartsy girl and they fall in love and he acts the way he thinks a man should act.  He goes to work. He swallows  shit. He doesn't come home and take it out on his wife and kids because his life didn't go exactly the way he wanted it to go. Instead he tries to totally different than his Dad. Even when he feels the Siren Song of Drink to help him cope he stops cold turkey to keep his family together. He tries to optimistic and loving and kind in most every situation. He provides. He makes mistakes. But the dude provides. The dude abides.

Then his wife decides that she has to realize her unfulfilled dream of singing Cat Stevens covers in the Blarney Stone to drunken morons with her ex looking at her like a turkey leg at Thanksgiving. Sure he screws up. He was supportive until he finds out that the leader of the band used to tickle her ivories and would be happy to blow on her flugelhorn if he gets a chance at a late night after party while they are alone on the road. He is morose and upset. He decides to take a drink. While he is there he is presented with temptation. Tapping him on the shoulder. He rejects it. He decides to drive to support her. Even though it is killing him. What nobody mentions is that he definitely had a buzz but he didn't really get wasted until he got to the venue. I think he did at least three boilermakers all in a row. In the space of less then five minutes. So of course he was drunk out of his face. So much so that his wife walked right past him and he didn't even see her. Of course Rebecca didn't see him either but that is understandable because after all it is all about Rebecca.

The fight happens. They drive home. They fight. She throws him out of the house. She expected him to be contrite and beg her forgiveness. Because in her mind she is 100% right. She did nothing wrong. She lays down the law and Jack has to toe the line or he can get out. It's not the first time. The last time he laid outside the door like a dog and  begged her to forgive him. He didn't do it this time. He makes a great speech. Which seems totally a writers contrivance. It would be much more realistic if he walked out without the speech. But hey this is (TV) us. 

I don't know what they will do next season. I will be interested how they get out of this dead end. I expect Jack to beg forgiveness and come back and work at a job he doesn't like  to support his wife and kids who are all about to go to college. Until he dies. Meanwhile Rebecca can forget about getting a real job (which is one that you hate but pays the bills) and follow her dream at the open mike night. I just think they painted themselves into a corner.

[chocolatine]

3 minutes ago, Trooper York said:

What nobody mentions is that he definitely had a buzz but he didn't really get wasted until he got to the venue.

 I completely agree with most of what you're saying except for this. When he left the bar at the end of last episode he was unsteady on his feet and dropping his keys. He was in no condition to drive anywhere, much less two hours interstate. As a father of three children, he should have chosen common sense, forgone the Big Romantic Gesture that one time, called a cab to get him home, and dealt with the Rebecca situation the next day.

[Sake614]

Not to mention all the empty beer cans on the seat next to him in the car. There is no way that man was fit to drive!

[Trooper York]

Well I don't know how much experience you have with being really drunk but.....err.....I have a lot of experience. He was a little shaky sure when he got in the car.  But he never would have made it through for two hours if he were wasted.  Unless he was a functioning alcoholic who had a lot of practice at it. Which he was not as the show indicated he was dry for years.

I think he was buzzed but could have sobered up a bit driving with the windows open on a cold night. Plus I bet he stopped a bunch of times to take a leak at a gas station and probably got some coffee  or he never would have made it through a two hour drive.

He got toasted drinking three boilermakers in three minutes. That is why he was as messed up as he was. Just sayn'

[ShadowFacts]

13 minutes ago, chocolatine said:

 I completely agree with most of what you're saying except for this. When he left the bar at the end of last episode he was unsteady on his feet and dropping his keys. He was in no condition to drive anywhere, much less two hours interstate. As a father of three children, he should have chosen common sense, forgone the Big Romantic Gesture that one time, called a cab to get him home, and dealt with the Rebecca situation the next day.

Weren't we shown 3 or 4 empty cans on the seat when he was driving?  More than a buzz.  Impaired.  Impairment of judgment and reactions happens when  you have several drinks over a short time.   Extreme irresponsibility and danger to other motorists and pedestrians.  The episode was all about his poor judgment both in the 70s and the 90s. . . . maybe isolated incidents, maybe not, we don't know for sure yet.  And I'm not anti-Jack, he's a good guy.  But he makes mistakes. 

[Clanstarling]

52 minutes ago, wonderwoman said:

Okay, a few more thoughts. Another source of the blowback was how unrelentlingly dark this episode was. Sad as "Memphis" was, it wasn't dark; there were moments of humor and joy. Moonshadow was one emotional body blow after another: Jack and his parents; the poker game (which went on way too long); the fight in Cleveland; Jack contemplating robbing the bar with a character we never saw before (and likely won't again); then the final fight at home. 

Too much darkess and not enough hope. And, I shed not a tear. While it might have worked as an episode in the middle of the season (maybe), it was no way to end the first season. Don't know what the writers were thinking.

I agree. This is a huge part of why the episode was, at best,  meh. It needed some of the joy and giddiness of Jack & Rebecca's early days - not just him seeing her on the stage.  Something to show why she would have fallen in love with him as well. Humor would have helped as well, as you said.

[jhlipton]

7 minutes ago, Trooper York said:

I think he was buzzed but could have sobered up a bit driving with the windows open on a cold night.

The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration not only says you're wrong, but you're going to jail: "Buzzed driving is drunk driving"

also, "What do you get when you give coffee to a drunk?"  "A wide-awake drunk"

Edited March 17, 2017 by jhlipton

[Optimist48]

Jack was clearly intoxicated when driving.  He was stumbling around, there were shots of beers in the car and they even showed him drinking while driving.  This show wasn't exactly being subtle on this point.

Despite the halo treatment, I really like Jack and Milo's portrayal of him.  But let's not sugarcoat that what he did was morally (and criminally) reckless to the extreme.  Frankly, he got off pretty easy given his actions. 

[luna1122]

9 minutes ago, Trooper York said:

lI think he was buzzed but could have sobered up a bit driving with the windows open on a cold night. Plus I bet he stopped a bunch of times to take a leak at a gas station and probably got some coffee  or he never would have made it through a two hour drive.

 

It's pretty interesting how you've imagined a scenario to try to lessen the import of Jack's drunk driving. He was drunk. He got drunker, while driving. And cold air and coffee just make one a more awake drunk, not a more sober one. 

Jack is an asshole for driving drunk. There is not an excuse.

Rebecca has a lot of flaws and might not be terribly likable, but she didn't do anything on the level of what he did on this night. Jack is a likable guy, arguably a better person than Rebecca,  overall, but trying to minimize his drunken behavior doesn't make it less destructive and stupid.  

Ugh  I don't care if they break up.  I'm not invested in them. All love affairs and marriages start with you thinking it's forever and the most special perfect relationship ever, like jack does. Sometimes they last, sometimes they don't. The showrunners and actors here seem to believe we're seeing a much more magickal connection here than I'm seeing, so I just don't really care that much. 

[Trooper York]

I think you have to take his actions in the context of his time. In the context of how he grew up and what was normal. I know that people are going to buy into the Puritanical notions of one drink means you are a monster and that nobody ever drives after having a few beers. Look he was wrong and stupid to drive drunk. I just know that for some people it is just another Saturday night. Doesn't make it right. It makes it realistic. For the time and place and the people involved.

I think he was totally wrong and stupid. Not just to drink and drive. To drive drunk two hours to reconcile with Rebecca? Wrong and stupid. Very wrong and stupid. He needed to wait until she got home. Thrash it out then.  It could wait. No?

[grommit]

In addition to being an asshole drunk driver,  what exactly did Jack think was going to happen to the old bartender dude after Jack had ripped off the bar if he had gone ahead with his plan?  Jack won the poker game fair and square and had the shit kicked out of him, did he not think there might be some consequences for the bartender for "allowing" the bar to be robbed?

Edited March 17, 2017 by grommit

[Katy M]

7 minutes ago, grommit said:

In addition to being an asshole drunk driver,  what exactly did Jack think was going to happen to the old bartender dude after Jack had ripped off the bar if he had gone ahead with his plan?  Jack won the poker game fair and square and had the shit kicked out of him, did he not think there might be some consequences for the bartender for "allowing" the bar to be robbed?

I'm not really trying to be a jerk, but Jack didn't tell him to work for those people and he didn't tell him to leave the cash register open while he answered the phone.  Especially with the business still open. If that's his SOP, i'm surprised the till hasn't been emptied by someone else before.

Actually, I was a little confused as to why he was counting the drawer at that point anyway. There had to be at least 15 minutes or so left in the night, if Rebecca just started singing a song. 

Edited March 17, 2017 by Katy M

[Trooper York]

5 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Actually, I was a little confused as to why he was counting the drawer at that point anyway. There had to be at least 15 minutes or so left in the night, if Rebecca just started singing a song. 

That's easy. Nobody is ever going to make any money from Rebecca's singing.

[sasha206]

4 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

See, I never saw that as flirting. I saw that as members of the band enjoying what they're doing. I know it's clear that it's more than that for Ben. But I've seen that type of look between band members many times, and here it's just given more weight because it's a woman and a man. (which doesn't mean, of course, that there aren't many times when it's more than that. If anything, the Fleetwood Mac story is a cautionary tale in that regard).

But before that episode where they were on stage looking at each other during the love song, there was the episode where she rejoins the band.  I remember many of us suspecting that maybe Rebecca might have an affair with the keyboardist.  She seemed in her element, he was clearly still attracted to her, then when Jack asks her about how rehearsal went before bed, she declined to talk about it.  That episode they were showing there was some distance between them.  I certainly took the writers as suggesting there was probably an attraction between the two of them that could lead to something later.  And while Rebecca rebuffed his advances, the way I viewed that scene was set up with her leaning on him to calm her nerves, I wondered if she subconsciously is attracted to him as well but wasn't going to act on it.  You can be married, feel butterflies around someone, but still stay true to your spouse and sort of snap out of it.

[ShadowFacts]

1 hour ago, Katy M said:

I'm not really trying to be a jerk, but Jack didn't tell him to work for those people and he didn't tell him to leave the cash register open while he answered the phone.  Especially with the business still open. If that's his SOP, i'm surprised the till hasn't been emptied by someone else before.

Actually, I was a little confused as to why he was counting the drawer at that point anyway. There had to be at least 15 minutes or so left in the night, if Rebecca just started singing a song. 

It was 8:30 that the bartender's shift ended, so somebody else must have been coming on.  I'm not so sure Jack would have gotten away with the money -- was he sure there wasn't a gun under the counter?  It's Pittsburgh, it's a bar with shady connections.  If the place hasn't been held up before, maybe it's because it's known who owns it.  The bar was far from empty.  It was a stupid plan. 

[PepSinger]

4 hours ago, Trooper York said:

It is pretty interesting how pro-Rebecca posters have to imagine horrible stuff that Jack did to justify Rebecca's decision to throw him out of the house he paid for by selling off his dreams.

 

No, I don't have imagine horrible stuff. Drunk driving is pretty fucking terrible. Also, it was Jack's choice to do that without consulting Rebecca. That's on him.

4 hours ago, Trooper York said:

Then his wife decides that she has to realize her unfulfilled dream of singing Cat Stevens covers in the Blarney Stone to drunken morons with her ex looking at her like a turkey leg at Thanksgiving.

Why are you so insistent on belittling a career in the arts? It is really unappealing.

 

3 hours ago, Trooper York said:

I think you have to take his actions in the context of his time. In the context of how he grew up and what was normal. I know that people are going to buy into the Puritanical notions of one drink means you are a monster and that nobody ever drives after having a few beers. Look he was wrong and stupid to drive drunk. I just know that for some people it is just another Saturday night. Doesn't make it right. It makes it realistic. For the time and place and the people involved.

Just because other people do it doesn't make it right. Also, this was 1996. Drunk driving was highly illegal then. No excuse.

Edited March 18, 2017 by PepSinger

[chocolatine]

3 hours ago, ShadowFacts said:

Weren't we shown 3 or 4 empty cans on the seat when he was driving?  More than a buzz.  Impaired.

Right, he kept drinking as he was driving to Cleveland. I was just saying he was already impaired even before the beers. He was already staggering and dropping his keys coming out of the bar. The beers made it even worse.

Drunk driving is like playing Russian roulette. Just because some get lucky and don't get themselves or someone else killed doesn't mean that it's safe.