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It's Mr. Barrow: Thomas' Thread

Wordsworth

By Wordsworth
in Downton Abbey [V]

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Wordsworth

Wordsworth

(edited)

First footman, field medic, acting sergeant, Black Marketeer, Underbutler.  Whatever post he holds, you can guarantee there will be plotting and smoking.

 

 

 

 

 

 

edited because an acting sergeant is not an officer.

Edited by Wordsworth
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wlk68

wlk68

Thomas is my favorite as well. I'm kind of disappointed that he apparently reverted to scheming and plotting in S4. I liked the warmer, fuzzier Thomas that we briefly saw in S3. Plotwise, I think Fellowes is at a loss about what to do with Thomas.

 

Additionally, I'm curious just what his connection to O'Brien's replacement is.   

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helenamonster

helenamonster

Tbh, after season 4 was over, I wish they'd gotten rid of Thomas and kept O'Brien (I realize the actress wanted to leave but let me have my moment). I've been rewatching from the beginning and I find myself constantly fascinated by her complexity. I like Thomas too, and I know he's got his demons and whatnot and he has proven to be fascinating himself, but if this was all they could do with him then no thanks. I think if we'd found out more about his relationship with Baxter (which I'm still interested in, especially because I think it will somehow tie into Anna/Bates/Green), he wouldn't have seemed so redundant.


Tbh, after season 4 was over, I wish they'd gotten rid of Thomas and kept O'Brien (I realize the actress wanted to leave but let me have my moment). I've been rewatching from the beginning and I find myself constantly fascinated by her complexity. I like Thomas too, and I know he's got his demons and whatnot and he has proven to be fascinating himself, but if this was all they could do with him then no thanks. I think if we'd found out more about his relationship with Baxter (which I'm still interested in, especially because I think it will somehow tie into Anna/Bates/Green), he wouldn&%2

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SilverShadow

SilverShadow

I enjoy Thomas a lot.

 

 I liked the warmer, fuzzier Thomas that we briefly saw in S3.

 

Me too. I always thought a good way to have used him in season four was to put his plotting and scheming to use for good, like getting rid of Sybbie's bitchy nanny. Like him trying to "defend the house" in his own special underhanded way. Looking up info on Mary's suitors, helping Bates find Green, etc. I'd have liked him to be good, without neccesarily being nice. *Into The Woods*. And it would have made sense as an evolution for the character: Lord Grantham and Bates got him out of a terrible situation so I would have bought him feeling loyal to Grantham, and still hating Bates but being willing to help him get the guy who hurt Anna. The one step forward two steps back is getting really old.

  • Love 7
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Mrsjumbo

Mrsjumbo

(edited)

I agree Silver Shadow. I loved his vulnerable side in season 3 & was hoping to see him be a little more compassionate- love your ideas. Instead he's still the same character as in season 1.

Edited by Mrsjumbo
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helenamonster

helenamonster

I really never got why he decided to go back to messing with Bates and Anna after they (mostly Bates) bailed his ass out of quite a complicated mess. I mean, I wasn't expecting them to be besties, but something of a cease-fire would have been nice. They could all still snark at each other, but he didn't have to blame Anna for Edna burning that hole through Cora's dress/shirt/whatever (though I mostly blame dumbass Cora for believing that Anna, the woman who helped her move a body from one side of the house to the other, would be so petty as to try and sabotage someone else's work).

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Camera One

Camera One

The regression of Thomas made no sense.  I do like him a little bad, but give him a new villain to mess around with, if that's the case.  It would have been more fun seeing him try to sabotage Edna.  I agree Cora's reaction to believing Edna's lies was beyond ridiculous.

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Cameltoes

Cameltoes

I enjoy Thomas a lot.

 

 

Me too. I always thought a good way to have used him in season four was to put his plotting and scheming to use for good, like getting rid of Sybbie's bitchy nanny. Like him trying to "defend the house" in his own special underhanded way. Looking up info on Mary's suitors, helping Bates find Green, etc.

 

It would have been brilliant if Thomas was Greene's killer. The Baxter storyline would have had more meat to it of she actually shared what she knows (she has clearly pieced it all together) and Thomas ended up meeting Greene somewhere or the other, confronting him and taking him out. Maybe Bates could have helped him to cover his tracks after the fact. Thomas' scheming always had some purpose previous to season 4 - manipulating Baxter wasn't worthy of him.

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Tetraneutron

Tetraneutron

(edited)

That's the thing with Thomas a character. He always schemed with the aim of improving his position and getting ahead, or gaining some kind of advantage for himself. But now he's underbutler, an excellent position (unless he quits service and goes into business or something). The show's not replacing Carson, so there's no realistic way to advance his career, and the Lady of the House is deeply, intensely, grateful to him. He's accomplished. He's won. No need to scheme any more, except that doesn't leave anything for the character to do.

 

I don't want him to be a loyal footsoldier to the Crawleys because we already have a Bates. And a Carson. And an Anna. We're full of those. Maybe it's time for him to meet a nice upper-class confirmed bachelor who's looking for a personal valet and exit the show.

Edited by Obviously
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wlk68

wlk68

That's the thing with Thomas a character. He always schemed with the aim of improving his position and getting ahead, or gaining some kind of advantage for himself. But now he's underbutler, an excellent position (unless he quits service and goes into business or something). The show's not replacing Carson, so there's no realistic way to advance his career, and the Lady of the House is deeply, intensely, grateful to him. He's accomplished. He's won. No need to scheme any more, except that doesn't leave anything for the character to do.

 

I don't want him to be a loyal footsoldier to the Crawleys because we already have a Bates. And a Carson. And an Anna. We're full of those. Maybe it's time for him to meet a nice upper-class confirmed bachelor who's looking for a personal valet and exit the show.

You had me right up to "and exit the show". I would prefer the upper-class bachelor move into the estate down the road and hire Thomas away but since they're nearby they're always turning up for weekend shooting parties and such. 

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Tetraneutron

Tetraneutron

(edited)

It wouldn't work. It would be the upper-class confirmed bachelor who would show up to the shooting parties, while Thomas sulked with the servants like he always does. I mean, he couldn't exactly brag about landing a rich guy, even if everybody knew what was going on. 

 

That's it. What's his point? All he has going on in his life is being a dick to Branson. And screwing with Anna for no reason. He can't really hurt Branson, I don't think. Oh, and whatever the deal is with Baxter. And it's punching below his weight for him to even bother with her. He's underbutler. Why does he need to pick on people with a lower rank than him? He used to be trying to get ahead in life - that's why he was an ass to everyone and why he kept trying to make money or up his status. But what's he even doing this for? How does getting Robert mad at Branson help Thomas? How does making Anna or Phyllis look bad help Thomas?

Edited by Obviously
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helenamonster

helenamonster

I think the thing with Baxter is a little different. Thomas likes to know what's going on at all times, and since he's no longer dressing Robert, and doesn't have a friend dressing someone now that O'Brien's gone, he needed to get one. He cozied up to Edna the second she came back, and when she was gone he decided to take the initiative and use Cora's newfound trust in him to put forward a name of someone he knew for the job. He chose Baxter because he knows some big dark secret of hers, and is threatening to blow it all sky high if she doesn't do as he says. It doesn't have anything to do with moving up in life, just making sure he's always in the know so he's not caught off-guard by a situation he could have used to his advantage.

 

As for Bates and Anna? Yeah, I don't get that. I could see him lording it over Bates that he was now officially higher than him on the servant hierarchy, but we haven't seen much (if any) of that. Otherwise, Bates (with moderate assistance from Anna) saved his hide last season, and while Thomas isn't one to bow and scrape, I don't understand why he felt the need to throw Anna under the bus (and nothing really came of that, except Robert being a dick and telling Bates to get his wife under control when he knew literally nothing about the situation; even dumbass Cora didn't hold a grudge about it for long).

 

I wish Fellowes had played the obvious beat of making Thomas and Bates/Anna allies, if not necessarily friends. I got to thinking how interesting it would have been if Thomas had known Green before he came, or possibly had heard gossip about his prior antics (assuming there were prior antics, but my Law and Order: SVU criminal profiling degree says Green had serial rapist written all over him). He could have tried to keep an eye out, and then showed subdued relief when it appeared nothing had happened. Then Anna shows up at breakfast the next day with a banged-up face, Baxter tells him about what she overheard Cora say, and he starts to put it all together. I would have preferred that to the direction it looks to be going in now, which comes off, to me, as Thomas wanting to find out what happened so that he can either blab about it or use it as blackmail or do something else nefarious with it.

  • Love 2
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pj3

pj3

(edited)

So it appears Rob James-Collier is back to his fundraising for the Chiltern MS Centre.  He released part 2 of his Downton Wars film.  It's mostly him and Brandon Coyle running around with light sabers, but there are some pretty fun cameos by his co-workers.  (Especially the ones by Michelle Dockery and Dame Maggie).  If you haven't seen it, the link is here.  (Apologies- I couldn't get the darn thing to just show the link)

Edited by pj3
  • Love 3
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Lorna Mae

Lorna Mae

What I don't get? Why Thomas and O'Brien were so tight. I kept waiting for either the big reveal that she was his bio-mom, or at least an admission that he was her sister's or close friend's son that she had a hand in raising. She seemed to have a vested interest in his success, as if she was counting on him to support her in her final years. Always encouraging him and pushing, with the valet job, with the black-market scheme...But she left, and I'll never know if there was any bond between them beyond smoking buddies.

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ShadowFacts

ShadowFacts

What I don't get? Why Thomas and O'Brien were so tight. I kept waiting for either the big reveal that she was his bio-mom, or at least an admission that he was her sister's or close friend's son that she had a hand in raising. She seemed to have a vested interest in his success, as if she was counting on him to support her in her final years. Always encouraging him and pushing, with the valet job, with the black-market scheme...But she left, and I'll never know if there was any bond between them beyond smoking buddies.

 

To me it seemed that a) she was an inveterate shit-stirrer; b) she recognized a fellow blackheart; and c) she knew how to push Thomas' buttons.  If anything came out of any of her machinations that would benefit her, all the better.  I prefer the relationship now in place with Thomas and Baxter. 

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PRgal

PRgal

I often wonder what Thomas would be like living in 2016.  I mean, he could proudly be out, but with his attitude, no man will marry him (he would have scared every single guy he's dated).  Not sure if he could keep a job, either - especially in some sort of service-related industry.  Imagine having him working as your resort manager or something to that extent. 

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rejnel

rejnel

Well, PRgal, certainly some of his attitude has to do with internalizing the message that he's sick and wrong. I can see him being a lot of fun in this day and age, catty and gossipy, having a lot of fun at the clubs (until they outlawed smoking), lots of breakups and relationship dramas in his 20s and then settling down and running a souvenir shop with his partner. 

 

Thomas has snuck up on me and become a serious favorite! I don't want to be spoiled at all for the rest of the season (am in US) but I DO want to know that he'll get a reasonably happy ending! I'm surprised how invested I am in his outcome.

  • Love 3
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Artymouse

Artymouse

It's a testament to Rob-James Collier's acting that I'm so fond of Thomas even though he's done some of the most dastardly things of anyone on the show. I always feel like I can see the pain that drives his character's deeds. He's one of those people who vacillates between terribly low self-esteem and arrogance (which is not a great recipe for a real-life person, but makes for a compelling fictional character).

 

That interview scene in the Mansion of Depression and Doom was great, due in large part to RJC's portrayal of Thomas. I agree with what someone said in another thread, that Thomas pretended to have the progressive political bent to allow the estate owner (was he an earl? I can't remember) to save face.

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ShadowFacts

ShadowFacts

It's his vulnerability that probably gets to me.  That's what I see clearly in the actor's portrayal.  Thomas is apt to get the short end of the stick in various interactions, and acts accordingly, and things go badly from there sometimes.  Not to excuse bad things he's done, but I also see where he's coming from. 

  • Love 4
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Artymouse

Artymouse

I started rewatching Season 1, and I'd forgotten about the scene where Thomas teaches Daisy the grizzly bear dance. He was light-hearted and fun in that scene, such a contrast to most of the scenes and storylines Thomas gets. Granted, it only lasted for a few moments, but it would be nice to see that side of him again.

  • Love 2
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ShadowFacts

ShadowFacts

I started rewatching Season 1, and I'd forgotten about the scene where Thomas teaches Daisy the grizzly bear dance. He was light-hearted and fun in that scene, such a contrast to most of the scenes and storylines Thomas gets. Granted, it only lasted for a few moments, but it would be nice to see that side of him again.

 

I do not remember that at all -- must try to find, it sounds delightful.  Would you happen to know which episode?

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Amethyst

Amethyst

As a relative newbie to DA (talk about being late to the party), I find it disappointing that there's so little backstory to Thomas, if any.  

 

IA that Rob's acting really elevates what would be little more than a mustache-twirling villain.  Thomas isn't someone you would usually root for or sympathize, but Rob's portrayal adds more to him than just a scheming asshole.  However, six seasons in, Thomas has never had a love interest beyond the pilot, and basically regressed back to his awful self after the traumatizing events in s3.  Seems like s1 was when he was at his absolute worst (mocking events like Cora's miscarriage, the death of William's mother) and I'm wondering if that was deliberate since they didn't anticipate keeping him on beyond that.  

 

It's like they want to give him these brief moments of decency and humanity and then forget them just as quickly.  He and Bates could have had a respectful but antagonistic friendship after Bates saved his ass in s3, but Thomas just goes right back being a dick like nothing happened at all.  He shouldn't have been woobied or anything, but there was very little change to him.  Why would he do that to Bates, and furthermore, why would Bates even let him?  Makes both of them look like idiots.

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Artymouse

Artymouse

Oh Thomas, why must you continue to be your own worst enemy? Talking to Baxter, he allowed himself to open up and have an honest conversation without putting up walls and being an ass. Then, he turns around and tries to sabotage Gwen's moment in the dining room. He just can't seem to let go of the urge to lead with negative behavior, and it's been his downfall so many times.

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ShadowFacts

ShadowFacts

Oh Thomas, why must you continue to be your own worst enemy? Talking to Baxter, he allowed himself to open up and have an honest conversation without putting up walls and being an ass. Then, he turns around and tries to sabotage Gwen's moment in the dining room. He just can't seem to let go of the urge to lead with negative behavior, and it's been his downfall so many times.

 

I think his urge to lead with negative behavior is part of his self-loathing, and it is baked into him, the way Mary and Edith's negative dynamic has taken such deep root.  Thomas is capable of decency and kindness and has shown it quite a bit as we have discussed, but there is his dark side.  He has to hide who he really is, because in the time he was considered 'foul' as the kindly Mr. Carson put it.  And on the occasions when he tries to be himself, he fumbles it badly and the reactions of others just feed the fire of his internal strife.  I think he is pretty realistically written, but the acting takes things to another level.  I saw a snippet of the actor at the end of the latest episode, and having never seen him out of character before, was wowed.  He looked and sounded like a different person entirely - voila! he is an actor for sure. One with a good understanding of his character, and conveys it.

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Badger

Badger

The only real backstory for Thomas is that his father, who he apparently had a difficult relationship with, was a clockmaker.  He also had an older sister who was a friend of Baxter's.

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Tetraneutron

Tetraneutron

Which is more backstory than any other servant got. (Mrs. Hughes's father was a farmer. She has a mentally-ill sister. Anna's father was a labourer, her stepdad was an ironworker who tried to rape her. Daisy was the youngest in a large family. That's it, really). 

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Artymouse

Artymouse

In rewatching the series, I've been paying a lot of attention to how Thomas evolves. In the pilot, it's clear that the fling he had with the duke, a smarmy, entitled ass who tells Thomas he's not really gay:("One swallow does not a summer make.") meant something important to Thomas and gave him hope that maybe he'd be able to make a life with someone he loved. And that he was hurt and angry by the duke's response.

 

Then, two episodes later, he makes a pass at Pamuk, who angrily rebuffs him, then essentially strong-arms Thomas into taking him to Mary's room that night (which ends up causing Pamuk's death and all manner of repercussions). But after that, we don't see Thomas making a pass at anyone else til Jimmy in S3. I agree that Thomas connected with the blind soldier in the hospital in S2, but I'm not sure he had romantic designs on the guy. So, unless he hooked up with someone when he accompanied Lord Grantham to America, he's probably been celibate, or near celibate, for at least a decade.

 

I would say that Thomas' behavior stems from a mix of loneliness, self-loathing, anger, childhood issues and trying to tamp down who he really is, in order to get by in that era. He really is a fascinating character, and he's one of the characters I'll miss the most after the series ends.

 

Recently, I saw an interview with RJC and Allen Leech from around the time of S3, and RJC was just hilarious, joking and goofing off, and totally demonstrating that he's a fantastic actor if he can channel that natural buoyancy into such a tortured character. And also, if I may be shallow for a moment, holy cow, he's hot when he's in civilian clothes.  

  • Love 6
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ShadowFacts

ShadowFacts

It's episode 2.  I checked.  It's one of the best moments downstairs in the series.

I finally saw it, and yes, it is quite a hoot.  Even O'Brien was smiling.  It is a good thing for Thomas that she left, and he is now friends with her much nicer replacement, Baxter.  Better influence.

 

I agree that he is one of the most fascinating characters in the show, and the acting is amongst the best of many good performances.  The actor has really conveyed the vulnerability of this complex character.

  • Love 1
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Amethyst

Amethyst

In rewatching the series, I've been paying a lot of attention to how Thomas evolves. In the pilot, it's clear that the fling he had with the duke, a smarmy, entitled ass who tells Thomas he's not really gay:("One swallow does not a summer make.") meant something important to Thomas and gave him hope that maybe he'd be able to make a life with someone he loved. And that he was hurt and angry by the duke's response.

 

I didn't think Phillip (the Duke) was saying he wasn't gay by that remark, just that Thomas was far too emotionally invested in a harmless summer fling.  And then Phillip twisted the knife deeper by revealing that he had no intentions of taking Thomas with him as his valet, unless the the marriage to Mary was certain.  

 

But Phillip did proposition Thomas again right before he left, just in a sleazy, cheap way.  Basically "Since you're here, we might as well..." kind of thing.  Asshole.

 

I agree that Thomas connected with the blind soldier in the hospital in S2, but I'm not sure he had romantic designs on the guy.

 

Lt. Courtenay was such a missed opportunity.  We met him and lost him in what, 20 minutes?  Furthermore, they never said if he was actually gay.

 

 

It is a good thing for Thomas that she left, and he is now friends with her much nicer replacement, Baxter.  Better influence.

 

I feel like Thomas and O'Brien fed off of each other's nastiness.  They both had their rare moments of decency and kindness, but you would never see them let their guard down and behave that way to each other.  It was a toxic friendship at best.  Frenemies?

 

Despite that, it was almost sad to see it crash and burn the way it did.  But it's not that surprising that they would eventually turn on each other.  I agree that the kindhearted Baxter is a better influence on Thomas, and maybe O'Brien has a decent person in her new life, too.

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Badger

Badger

There was a scene, although it was never shown, where Lt. Courtenay indicated to Thomas that he had a big crush on Lady Sybil.  

 

I would love to know from Julian Fellowes if the unmarried male characters were meant to be celibate.  They had prostitutes in Downton, and I imagine there were places that gay men and lesbians could go too.  Did any of the men take advantage of that on their half-days?  

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TheGreenKnight

TheGreenKnight

 And also, if I may be shallow for a moment, holy cow, he's hot when he's in civilian clothes.  

He's hot in anything. The actor/character has definitely been one of my favorite aspects of Downton. I only wish the show had done more with him over the years.

 

Not to bring up the neverending Green storyline, but I was just so sure we were going to find out Thomas was the one who did him in. I thought it would lynchpin a bunch of things--he would be paying back his debt to Anna and Bates during the O'Brien feud, it would be a better explanation for his crazy hostility towards Baxter for info. on the Bates' involvement with the police, and it would also make the character pretty badass. The show even made a point to show him returning to Downton just after Green supposedly died. Such a missed opportunity to me.

 

Even though the character has been pretty nasty, there have been certain moments it made me laugh. The scene in the stairwell with Edna at the end of her storyline was one of the highlights of season 4 for me.

  • Love 2
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caligirl50

caligirl50

That would have been awesome if Thomas killed Greene!!! But supposedly, no one knew of the rape except Mary and Mrs. Hughes. The police assumed (like idiots) and I guess everyone else found out after Anna was arrested.

This is off-topic in a way) but it always bothered me the way Carson was oblivious/didn't care when Anna entered the kitchen beat up. Thomas was the one to say something. I actually thought it was nice of him to be concerned.

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potatoradio

potatoradio

(edited)

 

 

 

...there are some pretty fun cameos by his co-workers. (Especially the ones by Michelle Dockery...

MD is hilarious in this. Thanks for posting it. Loved seeing the humorous/goofy side to RJC and everyone else

Edited by potatoradio
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Pebble Puppy

Pebble Puppy

I'm binge watching the entire DVD set. What I noticed and what really upset me was that the family was so easy to forgive Barrows for what he did but condemned a maid for sleeping with a man out of wedlock and having a child. It was disturbing that Barrows couldn't help what he did but a women is expected to say "no" but a man is allowed to have desires. That still stands today. 

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