Season 9: All Episode Talk

[drivethroo]

3 hours ago, Jadzia said:

One thing I thought strange was that while Liv seemed very empathetic to her black ancestor she never seemed to really make the connection that she was part black as well. I thought that was a neat discovery and she seemed a little distantly removed from it. I loved Steven's reaction to it, instead. He seemed to really grasp that it was part of his blood too.

She may have black ancestry but she's not part black.  That black ancestry is pretty far down the line.  Other than her lips nobody would think she had black ancestry, so why should she?

[Ina123]

38 minutes ago, Granny58 said:

Somebody please straighten me out.  The ancestor who was part black and served in the Civil War, it was HIS father who was "mulatto" and indentured, right?  And married a white woman.   So if I understand this, then the one who served at Gettysburg had even less African genetics and passed as white?  Or am I wrong?  Thanks.

Yes. That's how I understood it. George Washington (?) was the one who fought at Antietam and Gettysburg (possibly passing as white). His father was Robert, the one classified as mulatto and an indentured servant. Someone correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't it said that he, Robert, was a slave and then NY politicians decided that if the mother was white they could become indentured servants, which, of course, meant there was a time limit on their service. (As opposed to being a slave, which was forever. I think 7 years was standard for indentured servitude). What I didn't quite understand (if I heard correctly) why it was "if the mother was white"?

[Jules2307]

4 hours ago, Jadzia said:

I thought they said that at the beginning of the war there were no black soldiers (they were only allowed to join later) so that is why they figured he must have been passing as white since he was enlisted in the beginning of the war

I really enjoyed this episode and Liv Tyler was very sweet. By doing her dad's side, we also got 2 celebrities for the price of one - ha ha. One thing I thought strange was that while Liv seemed very empathetic to her black ancestor she never seemed to really make the connection that she was part black as well. I thought that was a neat discovery and she seemed a little distantly removed from it. I loved Steven's reaction to it, instead. He seemed to really grasp that it was part of his blood too.

I would have loved if they gave her a DNA test and found some living black relatives to meet.

I think the being part black feeling is generational. My dad (who adamantly refuses to identify as Puerto Rican even though my grandmother was born there) seems to feel like the one drop rule still applies. For me, even though my grandmother was listed as mulatto on the 1930 census, I don't feel black because I didn't have the black experience growing up. Logically, I know that I'm part black but because I have fairly pale, white skin, I've never been treated or experienced life the way a person who is viewed as black has.

[Mom2twoNonna2-3]

You are right granny.  His father who served in 1812 war was mulatto. 

[Cherpumple]

1 hour ago, Ina123 said:

Someone correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't it said that he, Robert, was a slave and then NY politicians decided that if the mother was white they could become indentured servants, which, of course, meant there was a time limit on their service.

Not exactly. Because NY changed their slavery laws in 1799, Robert was given the status of indentured servant because he was born to a slave mother (she was not white). I got this explanation from the New York Historical Society website:

Quote

In 1799, New York passed a Gradual Emancipation act that freed slave children born after July 4, 1799, but indentured them until they were young adults. In 1817 a new law passed that would free slaves born before 1799 but not until 1827. By the 1830 census there were only 75 slaves in New York and the 1840 census listed no slaves in New York City.

What I find fascinating (and don't quite understand) is that Robert's children are listed as white in the census, even though he is listed as mulatto in the same document. It was my understanding that under the "one drop rule" his children would also be labelled mulatto, but I'm definitely not an expert in this topic.

I've always been a fan of Liv, and thought she was totally adorable in this episode. She was very sweet and eager to learn about her family, and I loved seeing her and her father together at the end. Speaking of him, my first thought at seeing the picture of George Washington's family was, "wow, I guess that's where Steven got his famously wide mouth!" The resemblance was stronger than I expected! 

[Granny58]

1 hour ago, Ina123 said:

Yes. That's how I understood it. George Washington (?) was the one who fought at Antietam and Gettysburg (possibly passing as white). His father was Robert, the one classified as mulatto and an indentured servant. Someone correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't it said that he, Robert, was a slave and then NY politicians decided that if the mother was white they could become indentured servants, which, of course, meant there was a time limit on their service. (As opposed to being a slave, which was forever. I think 7 years was standard for indentured servitude). What I didn't quite understand (if I heard correctly) why it was "if the mother was white"?

I missed the if the mother was white part.  I thought they said since slavery was abolished in the North that if the mother was a slave the child would be indentured.  Maybe it was a way for the slave owner to adjust financially to the new system?  A phasing out, in other words.  

Oops, I see this has been already answered above.

Yes, I thought Liv was ADORABLE!!!  And the family resemblance between Steve and George was evident!  So cool.  

Edited April 25, 2017 by Granny58

[Peanutbuttercup]

2 hours ago, Cherpumple said:

Speaking of him, my first thought at seeing the picture of George Washington's family was, "wow, I guess that's where Steven got his famously wide mouth!" The resemblance was stronger than I expected! 

Yes, I thought there was a strong resemblance in the entire face, but especially in the mouth and chin. And when they showed the picture of George Elliott with his children, you could see the resemblance there with all (or at least most, that's a lot of children!) of them and Steven Tyler as well.

[Snarklepuss]

15 hours ago, Lugal said:

4th GGrandfather is about 8 generations removed from Liv, and it sounded like he (Robert) mixed race to begin with. That far back Liv might not have enough in her DNA to trace anything.    But I loved how into it Steven was.

Eh, I didn't much like Steven's reaction.  I thought he reacted like a white person that desperately wants to appear cool and non-prejudiced to their friends by saying "Some of my best friends are black".  He just protested a little too much, like he so much wants to appear cool that he loves being part black.  It also felt patronizing and based on very little DNA percentage-wise to act that way.   Just ugh.

What got me is after all that talk about what her Civil War ancestor "must have gone through" given that he was part black, etc., we eventually see a photo of him in which he does not look black at all, and then find out that he was in fact passing as all-white and not being open about the 25% of himself that was black.  So how much could he have actually "gone through" for being part black and how much of a "hero" could he be if he was actually hiding it!!?

I agree that Liv may not have much AA DNA in her after 8 generations so I wouldn't expect her to act like it related to her that much.

My mind was blown to find out that one side of Steven's family is Italian.  Now I think THAT would have been more interesting to find out about.  Plus genealogists in the US seem to be overly obsessed with the Civil War.  I was surprised that we had gotten through an entire season of this show without much concentration on it as it has been done to death over and over again on this show and others like it.  I guess John Stamos and some of the other stars this season didn't have any connection to it, which is fine with me.  I'm actually tired of the subject after 15,000 shows on it already.

Edited April 26, 2017 by Snarklepuss

[sadtvjunkie]

I thought I could start a drinking game with Liv. What was her word? Awesome? over and over again. I agree she appears simple. Steven Tyler looks to be out of it entirely. They probably couldn't use him because he has that creepy stare. I know I wouldn't want to have to shoot with him for hours with him looking at me like that. Or maybe he couldn't focus and follow the conversation.

 

I don't know or follow either of them but this was a boring episode. I wish we could get more of people with Native American ancestry on the show. I know Finding Yours Roots had one but she refused to take DNA test. Probably didn't want to find out she hadn't a drop of NA in her.

[Mom2twoNonna2-3]

Maybe next season they'll get Elizabeth Warren.

[JeanneH]

I did some research on History Channel's website about black soldiers during the US Civil War. At the beginning, blacks were not allowed in the army, even though they had fought in earlier wars, including the Revolution. But After a while the Union needed more soldiers and the number of white volunteers was falling. Finally, in July 1862 Congress authorized a law that allowed the president “to employ as many persons of African descent as he may deem necessary and proper for the suppression of this rebellion…in such manner as he may judge best for the public welfare.” So various groups and states began forming infantry units of "colored" troops. In January 1863 these troops were mustered into the US Army (the first official call for black soldiers led to the formation of the 54th Massachusetts Infantry Regiment, of the movie Glory). By the end of the war in 1865 about 180,000 black men had served in the Union army (about 10% of the entire army). About half of those were former slaves.

The Battle of Antietam (Sharpsburg, as the Confederates called it) took place in September 1862, so I was wondering how the father was able to serve there, as the way I read the History.com site colored regiments weren't allowed to officially join the army yet. So I checked another site about the history of the US Colored Troops, at http://www.afroamcivilwar.org  According to that site:  "A few weeks after President Lincoln signed the legislation on July 17, 1862, free men of color joined volunteer regiments in Illinois and New York. Such men would go on to fight in some of the most noted campaigns and battles of the war to include, Antietam, Vicksburg, Gettysburg, and Sherman’s Atlanta Campaign.

"On September 27, 1862, the first regiment to become a United States Colored Troops (USCT) regiment was officially brought into the Union army. All the captains and lieutenants in this Louisiana regiment were men of African descent. The regiment was immediately assigned combat duties, and it captured Donaldsonville, Louisiana on October 27, 1862. Before the Emancipation Proclamation was issued, two more African descent regiments from Kansas and South Carolina would demonstrate their prowess in combat."

So there you go.  And Gettysburg took place July 1-3, 1863.

[Emily Thrace]

22 hours ago, Snarklepuss said:

Eh, I didn't much like Steven's reaction.  I thought he reacted like a white person that desperately wants to appear cool and non-prejudiced to their friends by saying "Some of my best friends are black".  He just protested a little too much, like he so much wants to appear cool that he loves being part black.  It also felt patronizing and based on very little DNA percentage-wise to act that way.   Just ugh.

What got me is after all that talk about what her Civil War ancestor "must have gone through" given that he was part black, etc., we eventually see a photo of him in which he does not look black at all, and then find out that he was in fact passing as all-white and not being open about the 25% of himself that was black.  So how much could he have actually "gone through" for being part black and how much of a "hero" could he be if he was actually hiding it!!?

I agree that Liv may not have much AA DNA in her after 8 generations so I wouldn't expect her to act like it related to her that much.

My mind was blown to find out that one side of Steven's family is Italian.  Now I think THAT would have been more interesting to find out about.  Plus genealogists in the US seem to be overly obsessed with the Civil War.  I was surprised that we had gotten through an entire season of this show without much concentration on it as it has been done to death over and over again on this show and others like it.  I guess John Stamos and some of the other stars this season didn't have any connection to it, which is fine with me.  I'm actually tired of the subject after 15,000 shows on it already.

I think Steven's reaction was a little over the top but I think that just sort of where he lives. I also don't think his reaction is all that different than many of the other celebrities who have found an ethnicity in their background that they weren't expecting. I remember Brooke Shields was even more OTT when she found out she  had French ancestry.

Anyone who survived any of those brutal Civil War battles is brave in my book. I also think you underestimating the cost it would have on someone to actually "Pass". To pull that off George would to have had little no contact with his father not to mention any sibling he may have had who might have looked less white than him. He would have to live in fear of being discovered everyday of his life and possibly lynched  if he was found out. At the very least he could have lost his job and his home. Possibly even his wife and children if she wasn't aware. I doubt it was decision he took lightly or out of cowardice but out of necessity and as way out of poverty. I don't think it was necessarily the easy way out, or that it meant he never struggled.

[Snarklepuss]

5 hours ago, Emily Thrace said:

I think Steven's reaction was a little over the top but I think that just sort of where he lives. I also don't think his reaction is all that different than many of the other celebrities who have found an ethnicity in their background that they weren't expecting. I remember Brooke Shields was even more OTT when she found out she  had French ancestry.

OK, but as I recall, Brooke's reaction wasn't, "Wow, that explains so much about me, I've always felt regal and cultured inside!"  Steven's reaction was like that, IMO.  He acted as if he'd always wanted to be part black just so he could feel "cool" or whatever black stereotype he romanticizes.  And I wonder how such a small percentage of DNA could "explain so much" about him.  I have about as much German in me as he has AA in him and it was just about that many generations ago.  When I found that out I didn't go, "Wow, this explains so much about me!  Now I know where my love of Bratwurst and Oompah band music comes from!"  I'm being facetious, but I think I've made my point.

My husband just reminded me of how it rubbed him the wrong way that a guy who is so rich and relatively sheltered from any kind of ethnic prejudice is proud of an ancestry that he probably never had anything to do with growing up.  My husband and I both grew up in NYC in a very culturally and racially diverse environment.  Steve's reaction to us betrayed his distance from AA people in general.

I didn't mean to diminish their Civil War ancestor's bravery in the war.  It may have been me, but I thought Liv acted as if his bravery was on the basis of being Black, although I'd have to go back and re-watch those parts.  I'm sure it involves bravery to hide being black but that's not the original impression I got from the show.

[iMonrey]

Quote

After seeing her in this episode, I came to see she wasn't making acting choices for those roles...she does have a little girl voice and she does look as if she struggles to follow the conversation. Like several actors on these shows, Liv Tyler seemed a little dim IMO.  

I thought she seemed very sweet, and very genuine but . . . yeah, I kind of got that impression of her as well. 

Quote

I thought he reacted like a white person that desperately wants to appear cool and non-prejudiced to their friends by saying "Some of my best friends are black".

Disagree. Steven Tyler has spent his entire life with people pointing out to him he must have some African ancestry in him. They showed a picture of him when he was a little boy and he has always had those lips. This isn't really news to him, just confirmation. 

Quote

My mind was blown to find out that one side of Steven's family is Italian.  Now I think THAT would have been more interesting to find out about.  Plus genealogists in the US seem to be overly obsessed with the Civil War.

Totally agree. I did not find this story particularly compelling because when they jump around on the family tree until the find something they want to make a show about it feels too far removed from the celebrity subject. I like the ones that focus on grandparents and great grandparents more because there's a stronger connection. In Liv Tyler's case, they jumped back to her father's mother's mother's father's father's father until they found the story they wanted. I'm reasonably certain if I could jump around on my family tree like that I'd find some ancestor who fought in a war or had some sort of harrowing immigration experience but it's such an indirect connection it isn't compelling to me. I think it would have been far more interesting to trace the direct paternal lineage of the "Tyler" family as far back as they could go. I, too, am sick of civil war stories.

Also, when they showed the pictured of George Washington Elliot (or whatever his name was) and his 17 (!) children, one of them must have been her great great grandfather but she did not attempt to identify which one.

[Snarklepuss]

36 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

Disagree. Steven Tyler has spent his entire life with people pointing out to him he must have some African ancestry in him. They showed a picture of him when he was a little boy and he has always had those lips. This isn't really news to him, just confirmation.

If Mick Jagger were American people would probably have said the same thing, but I doubt he has any African ancestry.  Appearance and secondary characteristics are not always a good indicator of ancestry but it's natural for people to think that.  A lot of Caucasians have very hooded eyelids and are always asked if they have Asian in them but don't.  I can think of a few stars that have that feature and fans are always asking them if they are part Asian.  My father and I both have this characteristic and were always asked that, especially when younger.

Besides, it seemed to me that Steve was referring to feeling like he was "black" based on factors not related to appearance.  I'm from the Bronx - I have a good 100% Caucasian friend that grew up in a predominantly black neighborhood.  If anyone feels (and seems) "black", it's him.  Steve Tyler?  Uh, no....

I suppose my full lips and well endowed booty are because of my .6% Sub Saharan African, LOL.

Edited April 27, 2017 by Snarklepuss

[DkNNy79]

I didn't find any fault with Steven Tyler's reaction.  He said he has always felt a kinship to African-Americans. 

I guess they didn't explore the Italian side of the family because they are already familiar with his father's side?  Or they did explore it and nothing interesting came up?

I wonder if they do a complete family search or if they only search what the celebrity asks them to?

[ShelleySue]

On April 26, 2017 at 8:52 AM, sadtvjunkie said:

I thought I could start a drinking game with Liv. What was her word? Awesome? over and over again.

She also used "powerful" over and over again.  She doesn't have a wide vocabulary, but I won't fault her for that because I think she was being sincere.

I live in Massachusetts were Steven Tyler sightings occur with somewhat regularity.  Supposedly he is a very nice and genuine person, even when complete strangers come up to him for selfies and autographs.  

[iMonrey]

Quote

If Mick Jagger were American people would probably have said the same thing, but I doubt he has any African ancestry.  Appearance and secondary characteristics are not always a good indicator of ancestry but it's natural for people to think that.  

My point is that Steven Tyler has spent his entire life being "accused" (for lack of a better word) of being part-black despite him having no knowledge of such. His reaction of "I knew it!' was less about trying to look cool than it was to those accusations all his life. 

For what it's worth (nothing, prolly) I am of Italian ancestry and people always seem to think I'm Jewish. So like Steven Tyler, I similarly feel "kinship" with Jewish people because of that. I know how he feels.

[Snarklepuss]

2 hours ago, iMonrey said:

For what it's worth (nothing, prolly) I am of Italian ancestry and people always seem to think I'm Jewish. So like Steven Tyler, I similarly feel "kinship" with Jewish people because of that. I know how he feels.

Not to get too far off topic, but I am of half Italian ancestry and 1/4 Jewish.  My Italian grandmother was always being asked if she was Jewish and my father (who is half Jewish) was always being asked by my mother's Italian family if he wasn't sure he was at least part Italian. 

Have you heard about the similar DNA found in some Jews and some Italians?  See these articles, based on solid DNA research:

http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2013/10/did-modern-jews-originate-italy

https://www.geneticliteracyproject.org/2013/10/08/ashkenazi-jewish-women-descended-mostly-from-italian-converts-new-study-asserts/

My mind was BLOWN when I learned this!

Edited April 27, 2017 by Snarklepuss

[ChicagoCita]

As I said way earlier in the topic, Liv scored a lot of points with me for being enthusiastic, interested, and wanting to make a connection with her ancestors. Not everyone can be Einstein, but the other traits are voluntary, and I'm always impressed. To use a quote from Harvey, "In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. You may quote me."

Plus, EvilCita had the thought that Liv's mother, Bebe Buell, was one of the most famous rock'n'roll groupies of all time. Perhaps Liv learned that not appearing to be the smartest person in the room is, sometimes, a very smart move.

I thought it was an interesting show. Have any other episodes dealt with African Americans "passing" before? I remember reading somewhere about a woman who sat in the whites-only car of the train and was thrown off by the conductor, who made her take off her bonnet and used her hair quality as proof she was not Caucasian. It scarred her psychologically for the rest of her life. 

[Lugal]

Quote

Plus genealogists in the US seem to be overly obsessed with the Civil War.

I don't think it's an obsession, but more a matter if your family can trace back to the 1860s or before in America, there will be some connection to the Civil War.  But then I'm in the minority since I don't mind the Civil War stories.

[attica]

Correct, @Granny58.

I myself welled up when the drummer showed up. That was super cool and a swell surprise.

As disappointing as it was that Liv didn't know Antietam, at least Steven did. Small victories? And I too thought there was a strong resemblance between George and Steven.

I would have liked to know which of the 17 kids continued the line. Surely, with all those kids, there have to be cousins abounding.

[ElleMo]

5 hours ago, iMonrey said:

My point is that Steven Tyler has spent his entire life being "accused" (for lack of a better word) of being part-black despite him having no knowledge of such. His reaction of "I knew it!' was less about trying to look cool than it was to those accusations all his life. 

For what it's worth (nothing, prolly) I am of Italian ancestry and people always seem to think I'm Jewish. So like Steven Tyler, I similarly feel "kinship" with Jewish people because of that. I know how he feels.

Also, Steven Tyler is a rock musician who was raised in the 1950s when Rock N Roll was still considered "black music."  The earliest rock  music that he listened to was African American or heavily influenced by African American sound.

[SingleMaltBlonde]

Steven Tyler (with Aerosmith) did one of the first rock cross overs with hip hop (Run DMC...walk this way)...Aerosmith are Boston boys and racial tension is a large part of Boston's more recent history.  I remember when the video first came out and was played on Mtv (I am old enough to remember when they played music videos:-) ) interviews were all about the cultural significance at the time.

[Snarklepuss]

4 hours ago, Lugal said:

I don't think it's an obsession, but more a matter if your family can trace back to the 1860s or before in America, there will be some connection to the Civil War.  But then I'm in the minority since I don't mind the Civil War stories.

Interestingly, my family that traces that far back has absolutely no connection to the Civil War, and I've searched for it.  The only connection I have is my French 2nd great grandfather was a wine importer since his family owned vineyards in Bordeaux.  Unknown to my 2nd great grandmother, who was a Yankee descended from the Mayflower and Revolutionary War, he ran medical supplies to the Confederate Army during the war, something that got her so upset she left him.  They did end up reconciling, from what I hear.  Given that he was not a US Citizen he was not tried for treason.  Interesting story, but that's as close as my family gets to the Civil War.

[DkNNy79]

13 hours ago, Snarklepuss said:

Interestingly, my family that traces that far back has absolutely no connection to the Civil War, and I've searched for it.  The only connection I have is my French 2nd great grandfather was a wine importer since his family owned vineyards in Bordeaux.  Unknown to my 2nd great grandmother, who was a Yankee descended from the Mayflower and Revolutionary War, he ran medical supplies to the Confederate Army during the war, something that got her so upset she left him.  They did end up reconciling, from what I hear.  Given that he was not a US Citizen he was not tried for treason.  Interesting story, but that's as close as my family gets to the Civil War.

Wow, that is so interesting!!  Was he sympathetic to the South or was he just trying to make $$$$

[TiredMe]

I thought Liz seemed sweet. I enjoyed seeing how into everything she was. But,yea, why didn't she mention which one of the kids was her ancestor? Unless it was mentioned but cut out. 

This episode held my interest better than some others this season. But overall, it was a bit blah. But I'll be back for more if they do it again!

[Snarklepuss]

13 hours ago, DkNNy79 said:

Wow, that is so interesting!!  Was he sympathetic to the South or was he just trying to make $$$$

He was a French immigrant and merchant who had no sympathy to the South - He was just trying to make money.  I can imagine how my GGM felt, though, as a Northerner coming from a family that was proud of its abolishionist leanings.  I sometimes wonder how they eventually reconciled.  I see Census records showing that she went to live with her family with her children for a while, then later she's back with him.  Interesting story!

[sskrill]

I usually have a low tolerance for Steven as he always seemed a bit manic.  I liked him here though - he was respectful and let his daughter have her moment and just tagged along.  It surprised me.

[3jt]

I think it's interesting how so many people found Liv to be "simple", as I have always thought of her as shy and quiet. To me she just seems very calm like she's weighing what she is going to say.

The way that I interpreted her reaction to the information about George is that she was amazed by how strong he must have been to have seen such horrors during the first battle, but then continued in the Army as a sergeant when they needed more fighting men. It had to take incredible fortitude after seeing what artillery does to the human body- and remember that the field surgeons at the time had little resources to operate on the battlefield.  Liv said at the beginning of the episode that she wanted to research her father's mother's side because they already had a lot of information about the Italian side (Tyler is a shorted version of a longer Italian last name). I really liked this episode.  

[Glaze Crazy]

I also kind of misted up with Liv Tyler when the drummer came into the room. I wonder if choosing to go with Liv as the primary celeb vs. Steven was because of her own acting career including that little known franchise, Lord of the Rings, along with Steven being a little more quirky and loose with his tongue, so to speak.  A show with a bunch of bleeped out words might have been annoying. I liked this one and also wished, for our benefit if not for theirs, they had gone down a bit of the Italian line.

On 4/26/2017 at 11:38 PM, Emily Thrace said:

I think Steven's reaction was a little over the top but I think that just sort of where he lives. I also don't think his reaction is all that different than many of the other celebrities who have found an ethnicity in their background that they weren't expecting. I remember Brooke Shields was even more OTT when she found out she  had French ancestry.

Anyone who survived any of those brutal Civil War battles is brave in my book. I also think you underestimating the cost it would have on someone to actually "Pass". To pull that off George would to have had little no contact with his father not to mention any sibling he may have had who might have looked less white than him. He would have to live in fear of being discovered everyday of his life and possibly lynched  if he was found out. At the very least he could have lost his job and his home. Possibly even his wife and children if she wasn't aware. I doubt it was decision he took lightly or out of cowardice but out of necessity and as way out of poverty. I don't think it was necessarily the easy way out, or that it meant he never struggled.

My question about this is, would a part black person living in New York State after the Civil War be in danger of lynching in the same way as in the south? Especially since NY had outlawed slavery earlier than the CW era and had taken steps to absorb former slaves and their progeny? I honestly don't know a lot about the sentiments of northern states post CW regarding persons of color, at least to the point of lynch mobs. I can understand that there were probably benefits to being perceived as white vs. mulatto as far as work and social status though. I also noticed that George's father was listed/presumed (because the column was blank) to be white in the earlier census, while the next census had the write-over of "M" for his father. I then wondered if his father was already a couple generations away from his own fully African ancestor and not a 50/50 mix himself and possibly, if not outright "passing," just not making it apparent to anyone (census taker? general public? strangers?) of his bloodline.

[Emily Thrace]

5 minutes ago, Glaze Crazy said:

I also kind of misted up with Liv Tyler when the drummer came into the room. I wonder if choosing to go with Liv as the primary celeb vs. Steven was because of her own acting career including that little known franchise, Lord of the Rings, along with Steven being a little more quirky and loose with his tongue, so to speak.  A show with a bunch of bleeped out words might have been annoying. I liked this one and also wished, for our benefit if not for theirs, they had gone down a bit of the Italian line.

My question about this is, would a part black person living in New York State after the Civil War be in danger of lynching in the same way as in the south? Especially since NY had outlawed slavery earlier than the CW era and had taken steps to absorb former slaves and their progeny? I honestly don't know a lot about the sentiments of northern states post CW regarding persons of color, at least to the point of lynch mobs. I can understand that there were probably benefits to being perceived as white vs. mulatto as far as work and social status though. I also noticed that George's father was listed/presumed (because the column was blank) to be white in the earlier census, while the next census had the write-over of "M" for his father. I then wondered if his father was already a couple generations away from his own fully African ancestor and not a 50/50 mix himself and possibly, if not outright "passing," just not making it apparent to anyone (census taker? general public? strangers?) of his bloodline.

There was actually several lynchings in NYC around the civil war era so it was possible. Copper actually included a couple of them in the show that how I learned about them. There was a lot of tension regarding the draft and the war itself.  Its hard to say how liberal the community was living in was but racism didn't end at the Mason Dixon line.

[bybrandy]

I just watched the Smokey Robinson episode.   

Smokey had a kid with a long term mistress while he was married to his first wife.  So he couldn't have been too terribly shocked by preacher player and maybe why he managed not to be very judgy.    He attributes his unusual eye color to a french great-grandmother on his mother's side.  

Either this is blowing smoke or he knew more than he was letting on at the top of the episode.  

[meep.meep]

On 5/1/2017 at 8:48 PM, Glaze Crazy said:

 

My question about this is, would a part black person living in New York State after the Civil War be in danger of lynching in the same way as in the south? Especially since NY had outlawed slavery earlier than the CW era and had taken steps to absorb former slaves and their progeny? I honestly don't know a lot about the sentiments of northern states post CW regarding persons of color, at least to the point of lynch mobs.

You can read up on the New York Draft Riots that were depicted in the movie Gangs of New York.  They were race riots precipitated by white immigrants (mostly Irish) being drafted into the army to fight the south.  For a week in 1863, they attacked and killed blacks in New York City.  I'd say blacks had to be very cautious even after the war.

[Snarklepuss]

9 hours ago, meep.meep said:

You can read up on the New York Draft Riots that were depicted in the movie Gangs of New York.  They were race riots precipitated by white immigrants (mostly Irish) being drafted into the army to fight the south.  For a week in 1863, they attacked and killed blacks in New York City.  I'd say blacks had to be very cautious even after the war.

I had a 2nd great grandfather who was a policeman in NYC at the time who survived the riots and was part of the force that attempted to suppress them.  It should be noted that the Irish immigrants that participated in the racial killings were largely considered sub-human themselves at the time by the native population, and were the victims of widespread ethnic prejudice and oppression.  They were upset that as soon as they came to this country they were being forced to fight for a cause for racial equality that they themselves did not stand to benefit from.  I am not justifying or minimizing their behavior whatsoever, just attempting to put it in context. 

Also note that resentment among the largely poor Irish grew also because it was possible at that time for non-Irish whites with money to buy their way out of the draft, which was something they were not privileged enough to do.  Racial tensions rose between the Irish and Blacks because they were in direct competition for jobs.  See this:

http://lostmuseum.cuny.edu/archive/a-city-divided-new-york-and-the-civil

The draft riots were not really a black/white racial conflict in the way we would think of that today.  The Irish were not killing blacks because they thought they were superior to them.  It was because they resented them and perceived them to be a threat.  It was a rich/poor conflict and a native/immigrant conflict as well.

Edited May 4, 2017 by Snarklepuss

[Lovecat]

I'm really bummed that the season is over.  Even with all of its faults, I love this show, and look forward to watching it every Sunday night.  It seems a long time between seasons.

[Queena]

On 4/27/2017 at 12:41 PM, Snarklepuss said:

If Mick Jagger were American people would probably have said the same thing, but I doubt he has any African ancestry.  Appearance and secondary characteristics are not always a good indicator of ancestry but it's natural for people to think that.  A lot of Caucasians have very hooded eyelids and are always asked if they have Asian in them but don't.  I can think of a few stars that have that feature and fans are always asking them if they are part Asian.  My father and I both have this characteristic and were always asked that, especially when younger.

Besides, it seemed to me that Steve was referring to feeling like he was "black" based on factors not related to appearance.  I'm from the Bronx - I have a good 100% Caucasian friend that grew up in a predominantly black neighborhood.  If anyone feels (and seems) "black", it's him.  Steve Tyler?  Uh, no....

I suppose my full lips and well endowed booty are because of my .6% Sub Saharan African, LOL.

Everyone wants to be Black until it's for things that only seem to happen to black people go down. Black magic is wonderful, it's joyous, I don't blame Steven. I'm quite sure that white magic is just as fun, but speaking as a black person, I can see why he would be happy to have even a droplet of 'black blood'. 

 

All joking aside, I've always thought that it was his soulful voice that got him semi invited to the cookout... He wasn't quite invited, but he could come with a friend and most definitely not be turned away. Lots of people have big lips.