S04.E04: The Dalai Lama

[Tara Ariano]

A report on and interview with the Dalai Lama.

[Primetimer]

Including an interview with the Lama himself!

View the full article

[peeayebee]

I enjoyed the story and interview with the Dalai Lama. It was a nice change from the dispiriting news.

[walnutqueen]

The Dalai Lama is SUCH a delight.  I just love his humor - proclaiming John Oliver as a fellow demon was comedy gold.

[annewithaneee]

I was worried Jon Oliver's main stories for the indefinite future would all be Trump-related -- while we need that in the world, I personally really needed a laughing Dalai Lama in mine this morning.

[attica]

I loved the visuals of John 'commuting' with monkeys.

[Traveller519]

As an avid hiker, the visual of John climbing those Indian Mountains in a wool suit and dress shoes was painful to me. Good on you, sir! I'll admit to not being well versed in the Tibetan/Chinese struggle beyond knowing that it's ongoing, but this really brought some things to a head. The effective kidnapping and appointment of a Panchen Lama by the Chinese officials is really disconcerting, but John's piece did shed some light on why China wanted Tibet, beyond just land control.

Also, I hope John can work a Richard Gere reference into the majority of his feature pieces this season. I think we're 2/3 so far.

Edited March 6, 2017 by Traveller519

[ganesh]

I did kind of know about the issues with the Chinese kidnapping the other lama. It was an interesting piece, but I kind of don't really care about who is reincarnated. What if you get picked and don't want to do it? I can appreciate the political context, and it is important to cover things besides what Trump is tweeting now, but I just think there's more interesting topics to cover. 

[Hanahope]

It was nice to have some non-trump news, but it was a bit dispiriting all the same.  any day now, China could have unfettered access into Tibet, expanding its control.  Once that's accomplished, where to next?

Edited March 6, 2017 by Hanahope

[attica]

We don't really think the Panchen Lama is still alive, do we? Why would he be? I mean, you'd want to tell people he is, so they don't go looking for a reincarnation, but dispatch him with a quickness! 

[ganesh]

Wouldn't they want to keep him alive to identify a new Dalai Lama favorable to them?

[Hanahope]

49 minutes ago, attica said:

 

We don't really think the Panchen Lama is still alive, do we? Why would he be? I mean, you'd want to tell people he is, so they don't go looking for a reincarnation, but dispatch him with a quickness! 

 

I presume they believe that if the Panchen Lama dies, the Dalai Lama will "know" to go searching for a new one.  If the DL tries to do that with the actual PL alive, the Chinese will produce the PL and "prove" he is the one found before and is not dead.

31 minutes ago, ganesh said:

 

Wouldn't they want to keep him alive to identify a new Dalai Lama favorable to them?

 

That's my presumption.  The new Dalai Lama will "miraculously" be found in Chinese lands, thus allowing the Chinese to take over his "training."

[iMonrey]

Quote

 I'll admit to not being well versed in the Tibetan/Chinese struggle beyond knowing that it's ongoing, 

And that's exactly why the story should have been about that instead. The interview with the Dalai Lama was delightful but - sorry, there are bigger fish to fry, and the struggle between Tibet and China is more compelling and arguably more important than whether or not someone is going to be reincarnated as the next spiritual leader. 

[LAFR]

I did kind of know about the issues with the Chinese kidnapping the other lama. It was an interesting piece, but I kind of don't really care about who is reincarnated. What if you get picked and don't want to do it? I can appreciate the political context, and it is important to cover things besides what Trump is tweeting now, but I just think there's more interesting topics to cover. 

If you are identified and you don't want to do it you don't have to do it. The point of being a reincarnated Lama is that you can direct your rebirth so that you will be raised in a manner to receive a proper monastic education to continue your work to help others.

Even in the case of the Dalai Lama that doesn't always happen. The 5th Dalai Lama (often called the Great Fifth) did much to help the Tibetan people. The 6th led a very different lifestyle - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6th_Dalai_Lama

[LAFR]

  Quote

 I'll admit to not being well versed in the Tibetan/Chinese struggle beyond knowing that it's ongoing, 

And that's exactly why the story should have been about that instead. The interview with the Dalai Lama was delightful but - sorry, there are bigger fish to fry, and the struggle between Tibet and China is more compelling and arguably more important than whether or not someone is going to be reincarnated as the next spiritual leader. 

The political struggle between Tibet and China is completely wrapped up in who will be the next Dalai Lama. It's all about control of the Tibetan people. The two issues are inseparable.

[ganesh]

I think the point was that there is a compelling larger context of this issue that Jon could have addressed more substantively in the interview. 

[DEL901]

It was great to see the Dalai Lama.  I've seen him speak in person 3 times.  Whenever he comes to Toronto (and probably other cities), he give a secular talk at Rogers Centre (maybe 25,000 people of all backgrounds).  His last talk a few years ago. He said that he was once asked what the best religion was.  His answer:  the one that makes you a better person.

It's interviews like this where I wish John's show was longer.  He want all the way to India for just those few minutes with his holiness.

Edited March 6, 2017 by DEL901

[paigow]

India gave the Dalai Lama asylum...China wants to "economically annex" Nepal as payback. Nepal shares borders with Tibet and India. Historically, the bulk of Nepal's imports and exports were routed through India. China has built new rail and highway links into Nepal via Tibet to divert trade from India.

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/business/2016-12/10/content_27630924.htm 

[annewithaneee]

6 hours ago, Hanahope said:

7 hours ago, ganesh said:

 

Wouldn't they want to keep him alive to identify a new Dalai Lama favorable to them?

 

That's my presumption.  The new Dalai Lama will "miraculously" be found in Chinese lands, thus allowing the Chinese to take over his "training."

The story touched on this, albeit briefly -- the Chinese government arrested the young Panchen Lama and his family and anointed their own "legitimate" Panchen Lama, who will in turn presumably identify a new Chinese government prop Dalai Lama once this one dies. I'm assuming the little boy has been long ago secretly executed, along with his family. Letting them live even in captivity would be a needless liability, and to use him to find the new Dalai Lama would be an acknowledgment that the former Dalai Lama was indeed legitimate and had pure, divine intentions when he discovered the Panchen. It makes more sense to wipe the slate clean with their own Panchen, fully under their thumb and a signal that the Chinese are in control of the future of Buddhism, not Tibet.

I really liked that they touched on this. I wish it had been longer, and more in depth, but then again I'm not sure it's feasible or good for a TV show to cover all of it; inspiring viewers to further research the topics on their own is probably the right call. I have to admit that if someone had done a street interview with me, I would have only been a little bit better than the people at the beginning of the segment; I'd basically filed the Dalai Lama away mentally as "the Buddhist Pope, kinda, but in exile", always assuming that was a bit of a gross and inaccurate misrepresentation but never really looking into it. My therapist specializes in mindfulness so I've been dipping a toe in as mostly, well, therapy, and not a strictly spiritual practice but I'm gradually trying to understand this whole world better. I definitely want to do a lot of reading up now on the Dalai Lama and more specifically what the hell is exactly going on in Tibet (those human rights atrocity rankings did not look great, but there was no explanation of how/why) and how the Chinese government would manipulate a new prop Dalai Lama and Buddhism in general, and to what end. If anyone has any book suggestions, let me know!

[stillshimpy]

Just now, attica said:

 

We don't really think the Panchen Lama is still alive, do we? Why would he be? I mean, you'd want to tell people he is, so they don't go looking for a reincarnation, but dispatch him with a quickness! 

 

 

No, I certainly don't.  They can just claim that whoever they are claiming is the Panchen Lama has named _______ as the next in line.  They wouldn't risk dealing with someone potentially driven by faith to do as their conscience demands.  Poor kid.  

Hopefully, he went on to an awesome incarnation.  I'm hard pressed to think of what that might be, at present, but a really delightful one with...teddy bears and bunnies and...we're not limited to this planet in this stuff, surely?   

Ah John, thank you for that refreshing spirit cleanser.   Sadly, when I rewatched, I had to watch the Evil Keebler Elf do all but yodel, "Cheese it, the cops!" directly into the camera and while funny?  Oh man, hopefully my next incarnation is not limited to this planet either.  

[ganesh]

But if he's dead, then the dalai lama can name another panchen lama, so there's a whole mess if there's two panchens naming new dalais. If the current dalai lama does name a panchen lama, they trot out the 'real one' and say, 'nope he's still here.' They can't really kill him till the dalai lama dies.

[Lantern7]

Great interview. Would not have been surprised if the Dalai Lama ("Da-LIE"? Never heard it like that, John) joked about skipping reincarnation for Doctor Who-style regeneration. Also, wasn't there a Mr. Show sketch based on an American kid being a DL-type figure?

[annewithaneee]

1 hour ago, ganesh said:

But if he's dead, then the dalai lama can name another panchen lama, so there's a whole mess if there's two panchens naming new dalais. If the current dalai lama does name a panchen lama, they trot out the 'real one' and say, 'nope he's still here.' They can't really kill him till the dalai lama dies.

They've had their new Panchen since the mid 90s. The Chinese government wouldn't use the first one to select a Dalai Lama even if they're keeping him alive for some reason, as that would senselessly undermine their decision in the first place. Their guy is 27 and long active in his role.

I'm not sure why the Dalai Lama hasn't picked a new Panchen Lama. It sounds like he's keeping his intentions very close to his vest, and at least from that segment and interview the true fate of the Panchen didn't seem to factor into the decisions ahead in his new pick (if any) and reincarnation. If the OG Panchen Lama is alive, he's been a prisoner for 20 years and presumably cannot ever assume the role at this point, now that he's a man and not a boy. I don't know nearly enough about the religion or history to speculate about the big, complex picture, but I can't see any way the Chinese government kept that boy in reserves as a potential pawn or to prevent the Dalai Lama from making a new pick. He was delegitimized and replaced two decades ago. I'm guessing the claim he's alive and a private citizen is just to avoid admitting killing a kid, not because they have plans for him or his expiration date is "the moment after the Dalai Lama dies".

[DEL901]

6 hours ago, annewithaneee said:

I'm not sure why the Dalai Lama hasn't picked a new Panchen Lama.

The Dalai Lama can't pick a new Panchen Lama if the first one he picked is alive.  The Buddhists believe in reincarnation and the boy the Dalai Lama picked was the reincarnation of the previous Panchen Lama.  The Dalai Lama can't just "pick" someone else if the poor kid (now man) is still alive.

On the other hand, if he is dead, I would imagine that the Dalai Lama has already found the new one and is keeping it quiet until he can be safely shown to the world.

BTW, in his last talk in Toronto, he was asked if he could be reincarnated as a female.  He didn't see why not.

[Danny Franks]

The Dalai Lama is really the only religious figure I would ever want to meet (maybe Pope Francis, but he still represents an organised religion that has spent its entire existence trying to control people). He seems like such a delightful, optimistic, inspiring man. And he has a great sense of humour as well. I didn't know John was going to interview him, so that was a wonderful surprise. And just more evidence that John Oliver is a journalist, and a very important one, no matter what he says.

I had heard of the Panchen Lama/Dalai Lama tradition before, in vague, undefined terms. But I didn't know the circumstances around that poor boy, who is either dead or indoctrinated into the Chinese way of thinking about the world. I guess I just figured that all of the structure and paraphernalia regarding the reincarnation was with the Dalai Lama in exile. It's a worrying thing to consider, particularly for Buddhists, that your spiritual leader may die and not be found again. Or worse, that an imposter will be installed to the position, to further another country's political aims.

Regarding China and Tibet, I understand their position in terms of geopolitics, and that they view Tibet as vital to their strategic interests. Not just because of the resources there, but also because of its position on the Tibetan Plateau, and controlling it means they control their border with the other potential Asian superpower, India. And it's further complicated now, because they've spent the last couple of decades actively encouraging ethnic Han Chinese to move to Tibet and settle. A significant minority of the people living there are now Chinese loyalists, as I understand it. 

So I'm glad John didn't focus on the idea of a free Tibet, which is a prospect that is a fantasy. No one is going to stand up to China on this, and even if they did, China can point to all of its people there and say that Tibet is now Chinese, not just occupied territory.

And to echo other posters, this was a nice change from the doom and gloom of Trump and his GOP minions, doing their best to destroy the world. It still wasn't a story of optimism, but it featured an interview with an incredibly optimistic man, who embodies all the grace that humans are capable of.

[sadiegirl]

2 hours ago, DEL901 said:

BTW, in his last talk in Toronto, he was asked if he could be reincarnated as a female.  He didn't see why not.

As long as she's attractive.  Was very sad to read about this when it happened. 

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2015/09/24/dalai-lama-women-attractive_n_8186726.html

[ganesh]

It seems like it would be better for the chinese if they indoctrinated the 'real' one so when he picks a new dalai favorable to the chinese, it's legit. 

[LADreamr]

5 hours ago, sadiegirl said:

As long as she's attractive.  Was very sad to read about this when it happened. 

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2015/09/24/dalai-lama-women-attractive_n_8186726.html

Me too.  It put me off him a lot when that happened.  I don't see anything extrahuman holy about fostering more sexism. 

[Pallas]

On 3/7/2017 at 8:11 AM, DEL901 said:

On the other hand, if he is dead, I would imagine that the Dalai Lama has already found the new one and is keeping it quiet until he can be safely shown to the world.

 

Exactly. There is no reason for the Dalai Lama to finger someone else for the Chinese authorities to disappear.

Meanwhile, the Chinese authorities are updating The Last Emperor for a new century and a world-wide audience. Prepped and ready to be launched after the Dalai Lama's death is a spiritual reality show with a pre-determined storyline and a carefully-cast Panchen Lama as the host. The Panchen Lama as the producers' telegenic figurehead, mouthpiece and Deus Ex Machina: costumed atmospherically, reassuringly more akin to the audience than the striving, vaguely outlandish contestants, led by a winner anointed by the host one day, forgotten by the audience the next.

Mark Burnett is probably consulting with Beijing on "The Re-Incarnate" right now. What worked in the States... 

[paigow]

16 minutes ago, Pallas said:

Mark Burnett is probably consulting with Beijing on "The Re-Incarnate" right now. What worked in the States... 

"You're unworthy" "You're unholy" "You're unenlightened"...

[OneWhoLurks]

Quote

The Dalai Lama's comments about the contested issue of his reincarnation "appear to be funny and humorous but they're all lies," ministry spokesman Geng Shuang told reporters at a regularly scheduled news conference. He dismissed the show that aired Sunday night in the U.S. as merely intended for entertainment purposes.

 

Quote

 

China's government has accused him of encouraging the suicides as part of a campaign of violent separatism.

The Dalai Lama "is a political exile engaged in anti-China separatist activities under the guise of religion," Geng said. "We can now see that he's also an actor. He's very good at acting and he's very deceptive."

 

China not amused by Dalai Lama's spot on John Oliver's show

ETA:
 

Quote

 

"You tried to wean them off vodka by giving them horse milk?" Oliver replied, incredulously.

"Oh yes. Then they follow," the Dalai Lama said. "Since then I think majority of Mongolians no longer any drink."

The Dalai Lama was actually encouraging people to drink more airag, a fermented brew made from mare's milk, Mendee says. It's a popular traditional beverage that has roots in Central Asian nomadic horse culture going back thousands of years and has an alcohol content similar to hard cider. The idea is that by consuming something less intoxicating than vodka, which is commonly drunk, people might be better off. Vodka often contains 30 or 40 percent alcohol whereas airag is around 5 to 10 percent alcohol by volume.

 

Looking Into The Horse Milk Story That The Dalai Lama Told John Oliver
 

Quote

 

BEIJING/SYDNEY, March 10 (Reuters) - China said it would "resolutely strike" against the "Dalai Lama clique's separatist activities" as protesters planned demonstrations in major world cities on Friday to mark the anniversary of a Tibetan uprising against Chinese rule in 1959.

The sensitive anniversary coincided with the yearly news conference of Tibet's delegation to China's annual meeting of parliament, under way in Beijing.

 

China vows to strike against separatism on anniversary of Tibet uprising

Edited March 10, 2017 by OneWhoLurks

[Lantern7]

Would anybody watch PBS if they had a series where the Pope and the Dalai Llama solve murders together? Seems like a hit to me.