“Bitch” Vs. “Jerk”: Where We Discuss Who The Writers Screwed This Week/Season/Ever

[BabySpinach]

Haven't seen the episode, but just scrolling through the "supernatural" tag on Tumblr has me furious. Fucking hooray, Dean is once again framed as the bad guy and the fandom is (ONCE AGAIN) calling for him to grovel for forgiveness because everyone else is now just a sad woobie being abused by meanie Dean. And now Cas gets his undeserved moment of vindication where he walks away from the "abuse" just so Dean can learn a Very Important Lesson and browbeat himself some more. Fuck Berens. Fuck it all. I'm so tired and sick of this shit. 

[Myrelle]

6 minutes ago, BabySpinach said:

Haven't seen the episode, but just scrolling through the "supernatural" tag on Tumblr has me furious. Fucking hooray, Dean is once again framed as the bad guy and the fandom is (ONCE AGAIN) calling for him to grovel for forgiveness because everyone else is now just a sad woobie being abused by meanie Dean. And now Cas gets his undeserved moment of vindication where he walks away from the "abuse" just so Dean can learn a Very Important Lesson and browbeat himself some more. Fuck Berens. Fuck it all. I'm so tired and sick of this shit. 

You and me both(and Jensen, too, I highly suspect).

All this one did was set it up so that Dean would have to grovel to Cas(and his fandom) for forgiveness in the future.

Cas did nothing whatsoever wrong.

It's all on MEEN!Dean, dontchaknow.

I hate these fucking writers with every fiber of my being at this very moment.

Edited October 25, 2019 by Myrelle

[gonzosgirrl]

And the cherry on top is that they gave the episode following this piece of shit to Jensen to direct, so all the Cas-loving, Dean-hating asshats can trash it at will.

I hate Berens as much as I hate Dabb.

[ILoveReading]

5 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I hate Berens as much as I hate Dabb.

I hate him more than Dabb.  At least Dabb just ignores him.

Berens goes out of his way to trash him

[Aeryn13]

6 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I hate him more than Dabb.  At least Dabb just ignores him.

Berens goes out of his way to trash him

Me too. Berens loves making the character into a mean horrible bully to poor abused woobie du jour. Cue fandom hatred. 

And he still made him utterly useless otherwise in the episode. Would have been better for Dean if he wasn't in this dreck. At least he wouldn't get hatred up the wazoo then.

[Myrelle]

10 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

And he still made him utterly useless otherwise in the episode. Would have been better for Dean if he wasn't in this dreck. At least he wouldn't get hatred up the wazoo then.

I wish that they would have left Dean out of this one, too.

For sure.

[FlickChick]

This is utter bullshit. Dean was hardly even in this episode, and every time he was, he was either yelling at someone in anger or just standing/sitting around. Berens is an ass. It is obvious to me that he hates the character of Dean and possibly Jensen as well. I have no idea what Jensen would have done to get this kind of treatment. It is a miracle that Jensen hasn't told Berens that he won't have his character trashed like that and if Berens can't comply, then write him out of the episode. I mean, really, if you take away the character-bashing scenes, what's left of Dean's role in this episode?  And next week we have a Perez script,

Spoiler

and it looks like Jensen gets to direct himself acting like an idiot - right after the events of this episode no less. I sincerely don't believe that any of these writers talk to any of the other writers. No one seems to know what the fuck they are doing!!!

[ILoveReading]

Its really sad that Dean's legacy is in the hands off writers who think he's

Insignifcant- Dabb

A killer good for slicing throats- Buck/Lemming

Bully/Dick/insignicant- Berens

Mouth breathing idiot- Perez

Glynn is hit or miss and can go either way

The new guy from Scooby, can go either way, because he could be the guy who wrote Dean as a horn dog, or the guy who wrote that nice moment about Dean talking about why Scooby meant so much.  But then I heard Beren's was mentoring him.  So I don't even really have much hope for his ep.

I have a feeling its only going to get worse for Dean here on out.  With no contract renewal there is no incentive for them to even writer for Jensen.

After Michael, and how Dabb reacted when he mentioned talked about the end, I think Jensen just resigned himself.

[Casseiopeia]

Honestly. I just watched the episode again. I remember on first watch I felt unsettled, uncomfortable and I couldn't figure out why. On rewatch it hit me....it really was because of Dean. And not because he was acting like an ass (I don't think he was). It was Dean's rage. Jensen really nailed it. Dean is so full of anger right now he can barely control it. Jensen showed (me at least) a Dean that is so trapped inside a cage of anger that he is terrified of what he might do. That is why he pushed Cas away, I think Dean is afraid he will kill him. He's spiraling and I have a feeling that Dean is going to crack at some point

Spoiler

and apparently run off to sing in a band.

Now if his anger is never addressed or it's resolved in a way that make's him grovel for forgiveness....just kill me now.

Anyway I think Jensen did a fantastic job. I hope someone asks him at an upcoming con about Dean's headspace.

Edited October 26, 2019 by Casseiopeia

[AwesomO4000]

Brought over from "The Rupture" episode thread.

12 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Dean is already the least "perfect" person on the show. If they want to make perfect characters three-dimensional, they have a plethora to pick from.

Warning: just my opinion coming up. I realize that other opinions might be just as valid and that I may be entirely wrong, but this is how I feel about it...

I respectfully disagree. In my opinion, Least perfect characters wouldn't be as right about things as Dean generally is.

It may be looking like the narrative is painting Dean as "wrong" now, but I've seen this before, and it's almost always a ruse or red herring. By the end of the season everything will likely unravel with Dean being right and everyone else having to admit they were wrong.

That's what happened in season 9. And 10. And 11. And 12 and last season with Jack.

I can't agree with the predictions that Dean will have to be asking for forgiveness, because that hasn't generally happened for a while that I remember, especially not recently... even when Dean is at least partially wrong.

There was never any apology, for example, for Gadreel or the mark of Cain. Since then Dean hasn't really been wrong about much, and so he generally gets to say "I told you so" rather than have to apologize...

And somehow for me, false dramatics where Dean is sort of made out to be seen supposedly in a bad light, despite all of the facts we know, only for that to be contradicted later on when the *surprise* "hah hah we fooled you for a moment didn't we?" moment comes instead when it's (not at all) shockingly revealed that Dean was right all along, have just happened one too many times for me not to be jaded to this by now.

I'm not going to fall for their little manipulations. I can only assume that they somehow think it's supposed to be, I don't know, sweeter, or unexpected, who knows? when it's revealed that Dean has been misjudged, not listened to, whatever, but for me it's just damn annoying.

If they wanted Dean to be wrong and unnecessarily judgemental then they could just make him wrong for once. They are the damn writers, so they can do that. But they don't make Dean wrong - like almost ever - so I wish they would stop doing this stupid "ooh, look, Dean's being mean, being too harsh, just not considering the other characters' side, whatever" and then entirely not following through, but instead show in the end that not only wasn't Dean wrong, but everyone else was even MORE wrong and shouldn't have misjudged poor Dean's assessments in the first place.

So basically I don't believe it.

Somehow in the end, this will turn around and Dean will be right, because that's what usually happens, and I can't see that pattern changing now. I'm therefor not going to get caught up in their little dramatics. I'm instead going to brace myself for how this will somehow backfire and make Sam look badly (because that's what usually happens - see season 9 and 10 for a good example. Season 13 through 14 was a pretty good example, too with all of the "oh Dean is judging poor, little Jacky too harshly, he wouldn't hurt a fly. Why is Dean being so harsh and doubting Sam and Castiel?... *Surprise!* Dean was right all along! Jack did turn out to be dangerous just like Dean said, and Sam and Castiel were wrong! We had you fooled, though, didn't we, because who would have ever guessed that with the Dean being harsh and stuff misdirect!?! Um, me - way back in the beginning when I said that that was exactly what was going to happen... because Dean said it would.)

I'm honestly not sure they even realize they are doing it myself, but for the past 5 or so seasons, the pattern has been the same. And it usually ends with Dean being right and the other characters looking like idiots... or hypocrites... or jerks. Or all three.

Maybe temporary "Meen Dean" is supposed to be the consolation prize or the shiny object to distract from the other characters being made to look like idiots later on? (because come on, how could Sam joining the BMoL - the people who tortured him for crying out loud and were then shown to be incompetent not 5 minutes before he joined - not have been interpreted as "we, the writers, think Sam is an idiot? But ooh look Dean was being harsh for a moment, so maybe that's just as bad if you squint?" ...Um, no, not remotely.).

How about not making the other characters look like idiots or writing some actual conflict / plot points that make any kind of sense? Then they wouldn't need overblown, but ultimately fake "ooh look at how meen Dean is being" scenes for dramatics and to distract from the fact that they're making the other characters behave stupidly in the first place only to take it all back later when the real situation is "revealed."

[Myrelle]

1 hour ago, Casseiopeia said:

Now if his anger is never addressed or it's resolved in a way that make's him grovel for forgiveness....just kill me now.

Smart money says that his anger will never be addressed-because Dean's anger is too complex of an issue for the present set of writers to understand, much less write about properly.

IMO, Dean is treating Cas similarly to how he(Dean) was treated by John where it concerned looking out for "the kid" in the family; AND this "kid" that Cas has given his whole allegiance to(even above Dean and Sam) and yes, who even the brothers came to care about, KILLED! Dean's mother less than a week ago in actual show time. And Cas won't shut up about having to deal with the demon in that kid's form, like it's so easy for Dean.

And I'm not even going to mention the many times that Cas screwed up and was forgiven by the brothers only so that he could screw up again and need the Winchesters to help him clean up his mess and he now has the nerve and the gall to say/think/whine about them not caring about him enough or listening to him enough?!

Sheesh. That really does sound like a bad soap opera, doesn't it?

Anyway, Dean's anger will never be addressed excepting when he grovels and has to admit that he was wrong to be so angry(again and some more). Berens already stated in a tweet that he felt it was "important" for Jensen to convey that Dean was wrong to blame Cas for Mary's death in that scene this week. And that's how it usually goes under Dabb and co. where it concerns Dean's angry thoughts and feelings-they(and he) are just "wrong"-that's all, nothing else.

Jensen/Dean got by without having to apologize this time, but I'm sure next time he won't be so lucky.

It's what the Destiel fandom wants and has been screaming for since Dean said that Cas was dead to him. And Dabb and co. are here to please the shippers in this fandom, first and foremost, at this point, IMO. Bronlies and the Destiel ships mostly, but he's not above throwing in other smaller ships, too.

That part of the writing has become so laughable, IMO. Ludicrous even.

Edited October 26, 2019 by Myrelle
revision

[Myrelle]

8 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I'm honestly not sure they even realize they are doing it myself, but for the past 5 or so seasons, the pattern has been the same. And it usually ends with Dean being right and the other characters looking like idiots... or hypocrites... or jerks. Or all three.

Then Dean shouldn't have to apologize so often if he's usually right.

And it's rarely acknowledged in any meaningful way(AKA other characters change their behaviors towards him or listen to him more when they disagree) that Dean was "right", anyway. 

It doesn't earn him any more respect from the other characters.

He's not overtly acknowledged as leadership material either.

So what good is being right within the storyboard if only those who are seen as "wrong" or "idiots" or "jerks" are rewarded by the writing with those things AND with apologies from Dean in addition to them for how "wrong" Dean has acted toward them-even if he does turn out to be right in the end-which yes, I could totally agree that the writers don't even know that they're doing-because why else have Dean apologize for being wrong so often if they don't think that he is-especially now that he's had so much "character growth" under Dabb(according to all his sycophants on tumblr and twitter, that is) 

ETA: and S12/13 was the worst! for the Dean must apologize nonsense. The stuoid grief counselor episode and having to reverse his perfectly justified anger at Mother Mary within the very same episode were the two big ones that I can recall.

And no one ever told Dean that he was right about The BMOL or Jack either. 

He wasnr elevated to leader within any dialogues; and again, not praised for any leadership qualities and he wasn't listened to any better or more.

So again, I say big deal if they technically made him right when it can be argued that they didn't even know that they were doing that. BFD.

Edited October 26, 2019 by Myrelle
revision

[Myrelle]

I have never seen as much Dean-hate on Twitter as I'm seeing now.

And some of it is kind of disturbing to me.

Congrats,  Bobo.

[Bergamot]

1 hour ago, Myrelle said:

I have never seen as much Dean-hate on Twitter as I'm seeing now.

And some of it is kind of disturbing to me.

Congrats,  Bobo.

Maybe this is just what they (the writers) wanted. Since they couldn't come up with a brilliant storyline that would draw attention and generate excitement for the last season, they settled for creating controversy, nastiness, and hysteria on social media. Yeah, great job, guys.

I am sorry that you saw upsetting stuff, Myrelle! ☹️ Here is a virtual hug for you: (((Myrelle)))

Just keep telling yourself, only one more season to get through! And after that, we can just look back on and remember the good parts!

[Aeryn13]

14 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Brought over from "The Rupture" episode thread.

Warning: just my opinion coming up. I realize that other opinions might be just as valid and that I may be entirely wrong, but this is how I feel about it...

I respectfully disagree. In my opinion, Least perfect characters wouldn't be as right about things as Dean generally is.

It may be looking like the narrative is painting Dean as "wrong" now, but I've seen this before, and it's almost always a ruse or red herring. By the end of the season everything will likely unravel with Dean being right and everyone else having to admit they were wrong.

That's what happened in season 9. And 10. And 11. And 12 and last season with Jack.

I can't agree with the predictions that Dean will have to be asking for forgiveness, because that hasn't generally happened for a while that I remember, especially not recently... even when Dean is at least partially wrong.

There was never any apology, for example, for Gadreel or the mark of Cain. Since then Dean hasn't really been wrong about much, and so he generally gets to say "I told you so" rather than have to apologize...

And somehow for me, false dramatics where Dean is sort of made out to be seen supposedly in a bad light, despite all of the facts we know, only for that to be contradicted later on when the *surprise* "hah hah we fooled you for a moment didn't we?" moment comes instead when it's (not at all) shockingly revealed that Dean was right all along, have just happened one too many times for me not to be jaded to this by now.

I'm not going to fall for their little manipulations. I can only assume that they somehow think it's supposed to be, I don't know, sweeter, or unexpected, who knows? when it's revealed that Dean has been misjudged, not listened to, whatever, but for me it's just damn annoying.

If they wanted Dean to be wrong and unnecessarily judgemental then they could just make him wrong for once. They are the damn writers, so they can do that. But they don't make Dean wrong - like almost ever - so I wish they would stop doing this stupid "ooh, look, Dean's being mean, being too harsh, just not considering the other characters' side, whatever" and then entirely not following through, but instead show in the end that not only wasn't Dean wrong, but everyone else was even MORE wrong and shouldn't have misjudged poor Dean's assessments in the first place.

So basically I don't believe it.

Somehow in the end, this will turn around and Dean will be right, because that's what usually happens, and I can't see that pattern changing now. I'm therefor not going to get caught up in their little dramatics. I'm instead going to brace myself for how this will somehow backfire and make Sam look badly (because that's what usually happens - see season 9 and 10 for a good example. Season 13 through 14 was a pretty good example, too with all of the "oh Dean is judging poor, little Jacky too harshly, he wouldn't hurt a fly. Why is Dean being so harsh and doubting Sam and Castiel?... *Surprise!* Dean was right all along! Jack did turn out to be dangerous just like Dean said, and Sam and Castiel were wrong! We had you fooled, though, didn't we, because who would have ever guessed that with the Dean being harsh and stuff misdirect!?! Um, me - way back in the beginning when I said that that was exactly what was going to happen... because Dean said it would.)

I'm honestly not sure they even realize they are doing it myself, but for the past 5 or so seasons, the pattern has been the same. And it usually ends with Dean being right and the other characters looking like idiots... or hypocrites... or jerks. Or all three.

Maybe temporary "Meen Dean" is supposed to be the consolation prize or the shiny object to distract from the other characters being made to look like idiots later on? (because come on, how could Sam joining the BMoL - the people who tortured him for crying out loud and were then shown to be incompetent not 5 minutes before he joined - not have been interpreted as "we, the writers, think Sam is an idiot? But ooh look Dean was being harsh for a moment, so maybe that's just as bad if you squint?" ...Um, no, not remotely.).

How about not making the other characters look like idiots or writing some actual conflict / plot points that make any kind of sense? Then they wouldn't need overblown, but ultimately fake "ooh look at how meen Dean is being" scenes for dramatics and to distract from the fact that they're making the other characters behave stupidly in the first place only to take it all back later when the real situation is "revealed."

Only that Dean never gets "gotcha" moments of true narrative acknowledgment under Dabb anymore. Joining the BMOL led into Sam's leadership arc where, no matter what happened, the narrative praised him for it.

What stays for Dean now, before, during and after is the "he is a mean bully who can't do feelings right" sentiment. This is the new normal for the character under Dabb. Right now he is getting a hate wave of epic proportions and it is all but certain that this won't be turned around. The character Jensen worked so hard to build is being torn to shreds by the writers and IMO that is the objective. Sam is narratively made into a saint. So is Jackie-poo. Cas is an abused woobie. Even Rowena gets to be the hero. You betcha this is more than Dean will ever get now. Not with some writers flat-out hating apparently both the character and the performer. I truly think Berens loathes the character.

[PAForrest]

49 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

Maybe this is just what they (the writers) wanted. Since they couldn't come up with a brilliant storyline that would draw attention and generate excitement for the last season, they settled for creating controversy, nastiness, and hysteria on social media. Yeah, great job, guys.

I am sorry that you saw upsetting stuff, Myrelle! ☹️ Here is a virtual hug for you: (((Myrelle)))

Just keep telling yourself, only one more season to get through! And after that, we can just look back on and remember the good parts!

Oh, I think little Bobo made it very clear this is exactly the reaction he was attempting to elicit from his loyal, and mostly very young, twitter and tumblr followers. The post in the episode thread from his twitter account doesn't really leave much to interpretation. The fact that he claims Cas bears zero responsibility for Mary's death - and therefore Dean is 100% wrong - nails it.

But I do think you're right - they haven't got a plan or a storyline, and nothing in the way of talent BTS. I think three episodes in have made that abundantly clear. So this is all they can do.

Throw that in a blender with a lot of seething resentment that their bad ideas and atrocious writing didn't net them a spin-off, and you get what we're getting. And Dean/Jensen was always going to bear the brunt of that resentment, for any number of reasons, but in large part because ironically Dean is the only character with the fortitude to withstand the constant barrage of rocks thrown his way. And Jensen is also the strongest actor they have who continues to do his utmost best to act against the writing and instill layers that the writers never intended, like it or not.

The rest of the characters have become gossamer due to the relentless Sue'ing they receive, and would immediately blow away once the windows of their glass houses started to shatter.

[AwesomO4000]

6 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Only that Dean never gets "gotcha" moments of true narrative acknowledgment under Dabb anymore.

Didn't Dean pretty much say "I told you so" after Jack went bad?

20 hours ago, Myrelle said:

Then Dean shouldn't have to apologize so often if he's usually right.

What did he have to apologize for? If the grief counselor episode was it, that's not really one of the major plot points. I barely remember that episode.

20 hours ago, Myrelle said:

So what good is being right within the storyboard if only those who are seen as "wrong" or "idiots" or "jerks" are rewarded by the writing with those things AND with apologies from Dean in addition to them for how "wrong" Dean has acted toward them-even if he does turn out to be right in the end-which

What apologies? Dean gets to be right even when he's wrong sometimes. He never apologized for Gadreel or taking the mark recklessly. Other characters had to say an equivalent of them being wrong ("I lied") which while not a direct apology was a whole lot more than no apology at all.

The "good" Dean gets by being "right" is that he gets to do these things and lots of other things - like killing Death recklessly  - with almost no bad consequences. All of the bad consequences get shifted over to Sam and Castiel, so that they look like idiots while Dean gets to look like a genius for doing these things. Meanwhile it seems like if Sam even sneezes recklessly, he ends up starting an apocalypse. Castiel, too.

20 hours ago, Myrelle said:

Anyway, Dean's anger will never be addressed excepting when he grovels and has to admit that he was wrong to be so angry(again and some more).

It's not as if this only happens to Dean. Look what happened to Sam in season 9. Dean lies to him, and Sam not only gets no apology for all that happened to him, what he should have been allowed to be angry about - the lying and the abuse he took from Gadreel - gets ignored so that his gripe is something he can be shown to be wrong about ("I lied") and his abuse gets retconned into Gadreel being "misunderstood," and Gadreel gets to be a hero. So Sam gets lied to and it's never addressed and he gets no apology. Sam's body gets taken over and it gets whitewashed as Gadreel only being "misunderstood" and Sam has to call this abuser his "friend" and help that abuser become more important in saving the world than he is.

Yes, that was Carver and not Dabb, but it still happened, and it's a great example of how Sam's very understandable anger got not only ignored, but deflected and then retconned into how Sam maybe didn't really have anything to be angry about, so Sam was just being a meany and a jerk.... poor Dean. And then Sam got to be the one to feel guilty about all of that - even though Sam was initially the one wronged in all of this - leading to him starting another apocalypse.

So yeah, I get the "doing anger wrong" thing, but add on top of that also being made to be wrong in general, look like an idiot, and be the cause  of starting multiple apocalypses.

And even under Dabb, Sam is still the one to start apocalypses. I'm not sure what benefits Sam is supposed to be getting from this. Unless being made to look like an idiot is supposed to be a benefit.

[Aeryn13]

2 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Didn't Dean pretty much say "I told you so" after Jack went bad?

What did he have to apologize for? If the grief counselor episode was it, that's not really one of the major plot points. I barely remember that episode.

What apologies? Dean gets to be right even when he's wrong sometimes. He never apologized for Gadreel or taking the mark recklessly. Other characters had to say an equivalent of them being wrong ("I lied") which while not a direct apology was a whole lot more than no apology at all.

The "good" Dean gets by being "right" is that he gets to do these things and lots of other things - like killing Death recklessly  - with almost no bad consequences. All of the bad consequences get shifted over to Sam and Castiel, so that they look like idiots while Dean gets to look like a genius for doing these things. Meanwhile it seems like if Sam even sneezes recklessly, he ends up starting an apocalypse. Castiel, too.

It's not as if this only happens to Dean. Look what happened to Sam in season 9. Dean lies to him, and Sam not only gets no apology for all that happened to him, what he should have been allowed to be angry about - the lying and the abuse he took from Gadreel - gets ignored so that his gripe is something he can be shown to be wrong about ("I lied") and his abuse gets retconned into Gadreel being "misunderstood," and Gadreel gets to be a hero. So Sam gets lied to and it's never addressed and he gets no apology. Sam's body gets taken over and it gets whitewashed as Gadreel only being "misunderstood" and Sam has to call this abuser his "friend" and help that abuser become more important in saving the world than he is.

Yes, that was Carver and not Dabb, but it still happened, and it's a great example of how Sam's very understandable anger got not only ignored, but deflected and then retconned into how Sam maybe didn't really have anything to be angry about, so Sam was just being a meany and a jerk.... poor Dean. And then Sam got to be the one to feel guilty about all of that - even though Sam was initially the one wronged in all of this - leading to him starting another apocalypse.

So yeah, I get the "doing anger wrong" thing, but add on top of that also being made to be wrong in general, look like an idiot, and be the cause  of starting multiple apocalypses.

And even under Dabb, Sam is still the one to start apocalypses. I'm not sure what benefits Sam is supposed to be getting from this. Unless being made to look like an idiot is supposed to be a benefit.

Dean was played like a mean bully throughout the entire Jack thing. It didn't matter one iota if Jack "went bad" because his diaper never came off. So nope, there was no gotcha-moment for Dean. Just as he was never considered leadership material or verbally acknowledged as such. Ever on the entire show. Being right about the BMOL? Pfft.

As for starting apocalypses, Sam has a connection to God now and surely will be the singular hero at the end. The shot itself has not been acknowledged as anything negative. Dean will maybe get the flunky role after he grovelled enough to everyone and their dog. There is a reason why Jensen hasn't been with the effusive praise for how that Season will be badasd or being ecstatic over the Finale. 

[AwesomO4000]

49 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

There is a reason why Jensen hasn't been with the effusive praise for how that Season will be badasd or being ecstatic over the Finale. 

We'll see. As far as I remember, Jensen liked the Benny arc / story while I hated it and thought the main purpose of it was to damage Sam's character ("Citizen Fang" was pretty much Sam character bashing and Benny woobifying porn, in my opinion.)  Ditto season 9. I hated that season also. So Jensen and I do not have the same taste in favorite Supernatural episodes / seasons.

I think Jared once said his favorite episode was "Death's Door." While not a favorite, favorite, I like that a whole lot better and think it's a great episode. So I would think I would probably more tend to like an episode that Jared liked rather then one Jensen did.

And before someone points out something to the effect of Jared liking only plots that are good for him while Jensen prefers ones good for both, Jared's favorite episode is Bobby centric, and Jensen's favorite season is 9 (I think?) and if so, that for me was the worst season for Sam's character. Sure it started out promising, but by the end, Sam had been pretty much trashed and then rendered useless besides... And made to be a hypocrite. Pretty much a three strikes scenario.

Both guys like plot points that tend to feature their characters some.

[juppschmitz]

3 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

The shot itself has not been acknowledged as anything negative.

This whole plot point still bugs the shit out of me. Like, what was Sam trying to accomplish? Killing God and along with him the whole universe, basically? Because wasn't that the problem at the end of season 11?

Or did he deliberately just injure God, because... that would provide him with the main plot in season 15?

What went on in his mind?? I need to know!

[ILoveReading]

All signs are also pointing to the fact that Jack killing Mary are going to be swept under the rug, because they're making Dean blame Cas for it.  So I fail  to see how Dean was "right" about Jack.   They even made Dean be the one to utter that ricdiciouls, "he didn't' deserve this" line.

6 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

t the main purpose of it was to damage Sam's character

Sam faced zero consequences.  From the reaction I saw, most of the hate went to Dean for the text.  The text was also brought up in multiple episodes, with a writer mouth piece saying Dean ruined Sam's life. 

Plus, Sam got rewarded for his actions when he demanded Dean dump Benny and Dean did.  So again, I fail to see how Dean was right here.  He was the one who was made to be wrong, on screen.  Fandom also cut him no slack, from what I remember.

Edited October 27, 2019 by ILoveReading

[gonzosgirrl]

It occurs to me that a witch and the spawn of Satan got the two biggest 'hero' moments of the last two seasons. IMO, Dabb & Company haven't got much respect for either Dean or Sam. Fortunately for Sam fans, at least Dabb has a boner for him. Dean has no one. I hate them all.

[AwesomO4000]

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

Fandom also cut him no slack, from what I remember.

You must not have been where I was in fandom (a rather large message board) where a majority of the fans wished Sam dead so that Dean could go hunting with Benny instead. If that is the fan reaction you're getting on your show towards on of the leads, it's hard for me to believe that's an accident. Carver had been in television for at least a few years and knew the fandom. It's hard for me to believe that he didn't know what the consequences were going to be for changing the tone, characterization (of both Sam and Dean), and formula of the show so drastically.

All of the sympathetic beats in the narrative were for Benny, and that was over both Sam and Dean. The main reason that Sam got his way in this was so that Dean - also out of character, in my opinion - would dump poor, trying so hard Benny, and Benny would get the sympathy. It wasn't a reward for Sam. It was an "awww poor Benny" moment for Benny. (It's also why Sam was made to be jealous and all "he's a monster. Kill him," rather than giving Benny a chance, imo.)

As I have theorized before, this was all about Benny more than anything. In the end it was Benny who got the big sacrificial moment of the season whereas Sam and Dean - even though there were plenty of reasons not to close the gates of hell that made sense, and the narrative easily could have been written to include those reasons - were shown to stop the closing of the gates solely out of self-serving reasons.

Similarly, Sam easily could have gotten a sentence or two of dialogue saying how he considered looking for Dean, but that it was too risky to mess with purgatory etc., but that would have meant giving Sam a sympathetic reason for not looking for Dean... couldn't have that, because then there would be no manufactured drama and Benny wouldn't be the best brother ever and the most sympathetic guy in the room. Same with we couldn't have Dean say "no" to Sam, because again, no real sympathy for Benny.

I might not have seen it this way as much, except that Carver repeated the same pattern with Gadreel, taking him from a manipulating creep who took over Sam's body, invaded his mind and private thoughts, threatened to kill Sam, etc and turned him into a misunderstood, redeemed almost heroic character. Most of the best character writing done in seasons 8 and 9 was for Benny and Gadreel - hell, Carver even had me thinking Gadreel deserved redemption at one point. Whereas for Sam and Dean, at times it seemed like he and the other writers couldn't be bothered. That ridiculous conversation between Castiel and Sam in "The King of the Damned" is a good example. Who cares that the dialogue contradicted what we'd already seen and made almost no sense character-wise for either Sam or Castiel... just as long as Gadreel got whitewashed: mission accomplished.

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

It occurs to me that a witch and the spawn of Satan got the two biggest 'hero' moments of the last two seasons. IMO, Dabb & Company haven't got much respect for either Dean or Sam.

For me this isn't anything new. As I've outlined above, I think this has been going on since season 8 (when in season 8 and 9, a vampire and a fallen angel got the biggest heroic moments.)

I guess for them it's more fun to write for the shiny, new characters than it is for the leads.

[Shannonsspirit]

Would a writer/showrunner be able to undermine the integrity of a show and its principal characters? I feel that is what has happened.

A God, who creates a soul that houses morality; remorse, empathy, conscience, is amoral, manipulative, prideful, arrogant, petty. Chuck is, what? The manifestation of the deadly sins and then some?

Dean has been written/rendered useless, inconsistent, impulsive and angry. The combined efforts of first, Kaya and then Jack, took care of Michael. Jack took care of Nick and Lucifer, while resurrecting Sam, who Dean couldn't protect. Additionally, there is an illogical rift between Dean and Castiel to further demonstrate that a grown man advancing into middle age can't communicate.

Sam is written/rendered to be complacent and incompetent, impulsive and ineffective.

Why is this allowed? I am concerned that by the time Sam and Dean meet their end, most will be brainwashed into gleefully welcoming it.

[Castiels Cat]

On 10/27/2019 at 6:55 PM, Shannonsspirit said:

Would a writer/showrunner be able to undermine the integrity of a show and its principal characters? I feel that is what has happened.

A God, who creates a soul that houses morality; remorse, empathy, conscience, is amoral, manipulative, prideful, arrogant, petty. Chuck is, what? The manifestation of the deadly sins and then some?

Dean has been written/rendered useless, inconsistent, impulsive and angry. The combined efforts of first, Kaya and then Jack, took care of Michael. Jack took care of Nick and Lucifer, while resurrecting Sam, who Dean couldn't protect. Additionally, there is an illogical rift between Dean and Castiel to further demonstrate that a grown man advancing into middle age can't communicate.

Sam is written/rendered to be complacent and incompetent, impulsive and ineffective.

Why is this allowed? I am concerned that by the time Sam and Dean meet their end, most will be brainwashed into gleefully welcoming it.

I think Dean has the right to be angry with Castiel and it is very much in character. Castiel withheld critical intel on Jack that led to Mary's death.  Ever since he was touched by fetus Jack he put Jack before the Winchesters, his family. It was the worst betrayal in Dean's worldview. 

[Castiels Cat]

On 10/18/2019 at 5:22 PM, Aeryn13 said:

I think Carver wasn't the best to Dean either though at least he gave him stories that actually stayed. But Dabb is almost gleefully destroying every thing that made Dean Dean.

With the current mytharc development I have zero hope that Dean will play a valid role in the Series Finale. Whereas I actually do think there is a good chance Sam ascends to being God and benevolently ruling over the universe. I wouldn't put it past Dabb.

The Equalizer more or less equalizes this outcome although there are hints he will be dark and Devilish while he's at it.

Jared's current predicament might give Dean some mytharc... who knows!

I think we are getting Dean!Michael again.

[Shannonsspirit]

5 hours ago, Castiels Cat said:

I think Dean has the right to be angry with Castiel and it is very much in character. Castiel withheld critical intel on Jack that led to Mary's death.  Ever since he was touched by fetus Jack he put Jack before the Winchesters, his family. It was the worst betrayal in Dean's worldview. 

I do find the lack of communication among grown men and an infinitely older celestial being to be a staggering flaw in the writing. Additionally, the three of them are equally aware that Jack has problems and none has been written to effectively deal with them. The immature nephilim rules the roost as one of the worst conceived characters ever written into the show. He stagnates, as does everyone and everything around him. An entire season was devoted to hand wringing over Jack's welfare. Facing a meta recon of Chuck, who now toys with his own creations, while in the middle of a nonsensical apocalypse, there is an exaggerated and completely unnecessary rift between two best friends. 

The writing is absurd, childish and meaningless. It has undermined the integrity of the show and its characters. The last time I am aware of anything organic, with the exception of a handful of episodes, was season 11.

Edited October 29, 2019 by Shannonsspirit

[ahrtee]

53 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

I think we are getting Dean!Michael again.

As far as I can tell, that ship's not only sailed, it's docked at a port far, far away, all the passengers and crew have gone home and the captain has locked the door behind him and thrown the key into the ocean.  

If anything, based on spoiler pictures, 

Spoiler

We're going to get a double dose of Adam--as himself and as Adam!Michael.  

Edited October 29, 2019 by ahrtee
Grammar. It's our friend.

[Shannonsspirit]

55 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

The Equalizer more or less equalizes this outcome although there are hints he will be dark and Devilish while he's at it.

Jared's current predicament might give Dean some mytharc... who knows!

I think we are getting Dean!Michael again.

Of course we will get Dean/Michael, again to satisfy Billie's book.The last shot of the last episode will be Sam standing on a freighter, while the Malak Box is lowered into the ocean. He will probably have a dog by his side for literary symmetry. 

[ILoveReading]

Can someone send this to Andrew Dabb.  I wonder if it was a bit of subtle shade.

🖕  Andrew Dabb is the exact opposite of Jensen.

Edited November 4, 2019 by ILoveReading

[PAForrest]

44 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Can someone send this to Andrew Dabb.  I wonder if it was a bit of subtle shade.

🖕  Andrew Dabb is the exact opposite of Jensen.

Totally feels like a little bit of shade because we have heard from Jensen's own lips that he has asked Dabb for direction and gotten literally an "I don't care" kind of response. Same with Berens. So I do think Jensen is referring to instances he has encountered with this showrunning/production staff.

Jensen is a really good guy, and if he ever decided to take on the production side of a project, or be a showrunner, it would be a happy lucky group of people who got to work under him.

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, PAForrest said:

Totally feels like a little bit of shade because we have heard from Jensen's own lips that he has asked Dabb for direction and gotten literally an "I don't care" kind of response. Same with Berens. So I do think Jensen is referring to instances he has encountered with this showrunning/production staff.

Jensen is a really good guy, and if he ever decided to take on the production side of a project, or be a showrunner, it would be a happy lucky group of people who got to work under him.

When he cited the people who have influenced/helped him, he mentioned Kim Manners, Singer (blech), Sgriccia, Showalter. He most certainly did not mention his current 'boss'. In fact, I can't recall one good word he has had to say directly about Dabb since he took over. Given his generosity with his praise and admiration for his co-workers (cast and crew), I think that says a lot.

[SueB]

Maybe.
 

But he was was talking about directing and how you get asked a million questions a day.  

He may have been shading Dabb or writers but All those people referenced were directors.  So while Jensen clearly admires Kripke, sought Kripke’s advice on how the show should end, he didn’t mention Kripke in his list although Kripke has directed him.  

[Castiels Cat]

On 10/29/2019 at 12:55 AM, Shannonsspirit said:

Of course we will get Dean/Michael, again to satisfy Billie's book.The last shot of the last episode will be Sam standing on a freighter, while the Malak Box is lowered into the ocean. He will probably have a dog by his side for literary symmetry. 

Yes. I think we are winding back to that too. Chuck wants to reboot Stull however Dean's fate was rewritten when he pushed them to save Mary.

[Shannonsspirit]

6 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

Yes. I think we are winding back to that too. Chuck wants to reboot Stull however Dean's fate was rewritten when he pushed them to save Mary.

My assumption stemmed from sarcasm. The heart and soul of the show has been shattered by the meaningless and absurd retcon of Chuck. I had held out hope for something more profound. I think it's going to be a lazy and shallow rehash of something with a disturbed conclusion to make the audience cry.

[Shannonsspirit]

I have wondered why the CW brass has not hauled Andrew Dabb in to discuss and rectify his destruction of a show that cohesively and meaningfully lasted so many years. Retcon and rewriting history of established lore and canon of both story and character are the obvious contributors of the downhill spiral in both ratings and the confidence of the principal actors. Add to that poor writing and dropped stories, it seems like ample justification for termination of a showrunner's contract. The spirit of the contract has been breached. 

I also wonder what the president of the CW meant when he said that he knows of another network that would like to pick up Supernatural and Jensen saying he is open to talks.

[catrox14]

5 minutes ago, Shannonsspirit said:

I also wonder what the president of the CW meant when he said that he knows of another network that would like to pick up Supernatural and Jensen saying he is open to talk

This is the first I've heard about this. I'd love to read the article? Do you have a link for it?

[Shannonsspirit]

21 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

This is the first I've heard about this. I'd love to read the article? Do you have a link for it?

Since I saw your response, I have looked for it. I've yet to find it, but will keep looking. There are several articles that came up referencing Jensen keeping the door open and one "tease" from the CW president saying there may be a future for Supernatural after season 15. I haven't found the one where Pedowitz says that he knows of a network that may be interested. I believe it was in August. If/when I find it, I will reply directly to you.

[Bobcatkitten]

I've never seen that either. 

[Shannonsspirit]

22 hours ago, catrox14 said:

This is the first I've heard about this. I'd love to read the article? Do you have a link for it?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thewrap.com/supernatural-jensen-ackles-foolish-to-rule-out-more-in-future/amp/

I found this article from August regarding Jensen Ackles. But I have yet to find the one with Mark Pedowitz.

[Shannonsspirit]

On 11/4/2019 at 8:59 AM, gonzosgirrl said:

When he cited the people who have influenced/helped him, he mentioned Kim Manners, Singer (blech), Sgriccia, Showalter. He most certainly did not mention his current 'boss'. In fact, I can't recall one good word he has had to say directly about Dabb since he took over. Given his generosity with his praise and admiration for his co-workers (cast and crew), I think that says a lot.

I don't normally watch or read about behind the scenes; the panels or anything that pulls me out of the show itself. However, ever since their announcement to end, followed by the inexplicable Moriah, I find myself paying attention.

There was a posted video of a summer Comic con; the panel that has the writers, directors, actors and so forth. I noticed that when it was Andrew Dabb's turn to speak, both Jensen and Jared simultaneously placed their hands over their mouths. Then Jensen turned away from Dabb, while he was speaking, and placed something into a box(maybe) closed it and passed it to Misha(I think). Whatever it was, it was distracting, not disrespectful, maybe even subconscious. Seemed to convey a lack of interest in Dabb or tuning him out. It stood out, as his response to every other speaker was with rapt attention. 

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, Shannonsspirit said:

I don't normally watch or read about behind the scenes; the panels or anything that pulls me out of the show itself. However, ever since their announcement to end, followed by the inexplicable Moriah, I find myself paying attention.

There was a posted video of a summer Comic con; the panel that has the writers, directors, actors and so forth. I noticed that when it was Andrew Dabb's turn to speak, both Jensen and Jared simultaneously placed their hands over their mouths. Then Jensen turned away from Dabb, while he was speaking, and placed something into a box(maybe) closed it and passed it to Misha(I think). Whatever it was, it was distracting, not disrespectful, maybe even subconscious. Seemed to convey a lack of interest in Dabb or tuning him out. It stood out, as his response to every other speaker was with rapt attention. 

Interesting observation. Not gonna lie, I skipped over the Dabb parts. My blood pressure can't stand listening to him (or looking at him), but I may have to go and revisit that panel.

[ILoveReading]

I've always said Davy Perez thinks Dean is a mouth breathing idiot. 

Quote

Spoiler

He proved me right one again by Sam having to point out Dean doesn't know what a meat man is.   It's practically a given at this point.

Edited November 7, 2019 by ILoveReading

[Katy M]

24 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

I hate that the writers have turned Sam into a Gloomy Gus.   If Jared is dealing with or has dealt with depression in real life, it seems like a really bad idea for him to be playing a depressed character on this series.  The writers need to give Sam some optimism in his life. 

I love Sam, but he's always been somewhat of a downer all the way back to Season 1.

[Bobcatkitten]

They have a home now. Would be nice if Sam showed an iota of humor - maybe short-sheet Dean's bed or something. 

[Aeryn13]

49 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I love Sam, but he's always been somewhat of a downer all the way back to Season 1.

It seemed to kinda come out of nowhere though in this episode. At least in its intensity. He was rather chill beginning of the Season and I get that Rowena was a blow but suddenly we`re at "I can`t breathe" and "Jessicaaaaa". 

Dean also took a rather quick turn to optimism but at least he appeared more angry/passionate rather than mopey in the first few episodes so it didn`t seem as stark.  

[gonzosgirrl]

7 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Dean also took a rather quick turn to optimism but at least he appeared more angry/passionate rather than mopey in the first few episodes so it didn`t seem as stark.  

Maybe he's just feeling better now that he doesn't have to deal with whiney, mopey Castiel in addition to his whiney, mopey brother.

Did anyone notice that Dean had his trusty flask with him whilst being so outwardly optimistic though?

[Aeryn13]

1 minute ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Maybe he's just feeling better now that he doesn't have to deal with whiney, mopey Castiel in addition to his whiney, mopey brother.

Did anyone notice that Dean had his trusty flask with him whilst being so outwardly optimistic though?

Yeah, he is clearly not fine either. And while of course he never gets that sympathetic, brave, noble suffering saint slant that both Sam and Cas get for their mopey-dom, I did like that so far this Season at least Dean was fiery when he brought up feeling screwed over by Chuck.

The bar has become seriously low with this show. I mean, the MOTW of this recent episode was a pretty drab story and the case wasn`t really engaging. Equally the Chuck/Becky scenes were just okay, in earlier, better Seasons I would have been bored to death by them. 

And yet it stands out as a beacon of an episode now. Though for me mainly because of the teaser. Where, lo and behold, an AU!Dean is allowed to be badass and be shown as a leader of men. This is almost breaking the glass ceiling for Dabb`s reign.  

[Myrelle]

17 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Did anyone notice that Dean had his trusty flask with him whilst being so outwardly optimistic though

I noticed that too.

12 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Yeah, he is clearly not fine either. And while of course he never gets that sympathetic, brave, noble suffering saint slant that both Sam and Cas get for their mopey-dom, I did like that so far this Season at least Dean was fiery when he brought up feeling screwed over by Chuck.

The bar has become seriously low with this show. I mean, the MOTW of this recent episode was a pretty drab story and the case wasn`t really engaging. Equally the Chuck/Becky scenes were just okay, in earlier, better Seasons I would have been bored to death by them. 

And yet it stands out as a beacon of an episode now. Though for me mainly because of the teaser. Where, lo and behold, an AU!Dean is allowed to be badass and be shown as a leader of men. This is almost breaking the glass ceiling for Dabb`s reign.  

ITA with every word in this post.

[Bergamot]

7 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Yeah, he is clearly not fine either. And while of course he never gets that sympathetic, brave, noble suffering saint slant that both Sam and Cas get for their mopey-dom, I did like that so far this Season at least Dean was fiery when he brought up feeling screwed over by Chuck.

Yes, I like the fact that his wanting to keep on saving people and hunting things doesn't mean that he is not, as you say, still angry about being screwed by Chuck. And I liked what he said about how they owed it to the people they had lost to keep going, to keep putting one foot in front of another.

20 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

And yet it stands out as a beacon of an episode now. Though for me mainly because of the teaser. Where, lo and behold, an AU!Dean is allowed to be badass and be shown as a leader of men. This is almost breaking the glass ceiling for Dabb`s reign. 

LOL, Aeryn! This is so true!

27 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

It seemed to kinda come out of nowhere though in this episode. At least in its intensity. He was rather chill beginning of the Season and I get that Rowena was a blow but suddenly we`re at "I can`t breathe" and "Jessicaaaaa". 

 I didn't think about it so much at first, but it does seem odd. Especially his bitterness about having to "carry the weight" for the normal people. I honestly thought that this was something Sam had come to terms with years ago.

Maybe the writers are not just bringing back characters like the Woman In White and Bloody Mary from the beginning of the show; maybe they are also going to regurgitate and rehash all the old issues from back then. Like, in one episode they can talk about why Sam went to Stanford, and then in the next one they can argue about who was John's favorite.