“Bitch” Vs. “Jerk”: Where We Discuss Who The Writers Screwed This Week/Season/Ever

gonzosgirrl · December 2, 2019

6 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

The last thing these writers need is someone boosting their already massive egos.

As someone else suggested to me, the only thing they deserve in their stockings is a small lump of coal. (Preferrably already on fire).

ahrtee · December 2, 2019

18 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

The last thing these writers need is someone boosting their already massive egos.

The comment I would send would be: "Good luck finding another job!"

juppschmitz · December 2, 2019

7 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Just in case anyone wants to participate.

What, like "Thank you for completely ruining this show"?

Pass, thanks.

Shannonsspirit · December 2, 2019

https://www.google.com/amp/s/ew.com/tv/2019/10/03/supernatural-season-15-preview-andrew-dabb/amp/

This explains everything.

DeeDee79 · December 3, 2019

3 hours ago, Shannonsspirit said:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/ew.com/tv/2019/10/03/supernatural-season-15-preview-andrew-dabb/amp/

This explains everything.

I find Dabb's interpretation of "what the show has always been" to be both infuriating and incredibly arrogant. How can he state that it's been building since season 1 if he's been rewriting established canon since he took over in season 12? And if it's indeed been building from the beginning then why have the final seasons not been about the brothers and instead have been focused on Jack who has added absolutely nothing to the story? Also, why have the brothers and Cas become devoted to Jack at the expense of everything else since his introduction which is largely OOC compared to their values in seasons 1-11? I'm so angry at the way that these wonderful characters have been butchered under Dabb and Co. I'm even sadder at how many of the newer viewers on SM are only praising the present day fanfiction that we're being given and not appreciating the awesomeness that the show used to be. All IMO, of course. 😥

Shannonsspirit · December 3, 2019

2 hours ago, DeeDee79 said:

I find Dabb's interpretation of "what the show has always been" to be both infuriating and incredibly arrogant. How can he state that it's been building since season 1 if he's been rewriting established canon since he took over in season 12? And if it's indeed been building from the beginning then why have the final seasons not been about the brothers and instead have been focused on Jack who has added absolutely nothing to the story? Also, why have the brothers and Cas become devoted to Jack at the expense of everything else since his introduction which is largely OOC compared to their values in seasons 1-11? I'm so angry at the way that these wonderful characters have been butchered under Dabb and Co. I'm even sadder at how many of the newer viewers on SM are only praising the present day fanfiction that we're being given and not appreciating the awesomeness that the show used to be. All IMO, of course. 😥

DeeDee, I am so sorry for posting the article. I didn't mean to upset anyone. I've keep looking for explanations and possibilities that will shed light on what's going on, while hoping it is all an illusion or bad dream. I find his interpretation arrogant and shallow, and designed for Jack to step up as the hero and lay to rest the Winchesters.

I do believe that because it is so blatantly obvious, it will make it far easier to rewatch previous seasons with a heightened enjoyment and appreciation. At least that has been my experience of late.

And I admire the actors all the more for ending this , yet, having the integrity to see it through. I'm sure they know that we know what it has been about over the years. Anyone who takes their time from the beginning will see it too. Those who don't, don't deserve it anyway.

Castiels Cat · December 8, 2019

Taking from another thread. Discussion touched on the fact that Dean was ridiculous to expect Sam to look for him (s 8 or to be angry that he didn't.

Ummm... there is the entire military mindset of not leaving a man behind on a mission...A HUNT IS A MISSION! Also there was a teenager that had no experience with the supernatural that the Winchesters were responsible for that Sam also abandoned!!! Dean and I found this even more disturbing.

I guess we learned a fundamental difference between Dean and Sam. Dean should have known this because it was essential s 1 Pilot Dean had to talk Sam into looking for Dad and even then Sam just gave Dean a couple of days. Ii was only the need for revenge for Jessica that changed Sam's plan.it was not loyalty to his family. Throughout the seasons we see Sam from childhood run away from responsibility even if it meant Dean being beaten. And adult Sam just run away too even if it wasn't terribly safe or smart because of mytharc.

He finally grew out of that and he finally apologized to Dean in Love Hurts We know Sam felt guilty about it. Lucifer taunts him about it in s 11 and it's why imo he took on the trials.

Katy M · December 8, 2019

12 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

there is the entire military mindset of not leaving a man behind on a mission...A HUNT IS A MISSION!

Even the military will leave behind a blown up corpse where no bones are available for retrieval.

13 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

Also there was a teenager that had no experience with the supernatural that the Winchesters were responsible for that Sam also abandoned!!! Dean and I found this even more disturbing.

Yep. No excuse for Kevin. That could have been easily dodged by having Crowley kidnap Kevin out of Sam's sight.

gonzosgirrl · December 8, 2019

51 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Even the military will leave behind a blown up corpse where no bones are available for retrieval.

That's true, but that's not what happened in 7x23. Unless Sam had the goo analyzed, he had no reason to believe Dean and Cas exploded along with Dick. They disappeared - just the facts of how it happened (while killing something supernatural) should have at least had Sam searching for answers, if not for Dean and Cas's bodies. There's just no good, in-show reason for him to have just walked away. "I was sad" just isn't enough.

Castiels Cat · December 8, 2019

19 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

That's true, but that's not what happened in 7x23. Unless Sam had the goo analyzed, he had no reason to believe Dean and Cas exploded along with Dick. They disappeared - just the facts of how it happened (while killing something supernatural) should have at least had Sam searching for answers, if not for Dean and Cas's bodies. There's just no good, in-show reason for him to have just walked away. "I was sad" just isn't enough.

Kevin? How about Kevin...

He didn't even ask himself what might have happened. He didn't research. Compare it to the end of s 6.

Dean would not have left Kevin behind. Dean would have researched and at least tried to figure out what happened to Sam. It was a supernatural ritual not a military explosion. Dean stabbed a guy with a ritual blade. And If Sam had returned Dean would not have taken his guilt out on the being that saved him in a murderous vendetta.

In reference to Dean's fate and Rowena's fate as written in Death's books...

Death told Rowena her fate.

We do not know that Dean's was rewritten again. Presumably one's fate changes depending on choices and chance and roads taken. Death implied that when Dean went to the AU all of his books were rewritten with one fate (Michael burns this world using his body as a vessel) except one (he's in a Malak box with Michael). We assumed it was AU Michael. Death never specified.

This season we have had references to Death, her library and Michael and next week Adam is free meaning Michael is free. Dean's fate may still be in play. If I were him I would start to wonder and I would look for the key to find out

Edited December 8, 2019 by Castiels Cat

ILoveReading · December 8, 2019

1 hour ago, Katy M said:

Even the military will leave behind a blown up corpse where no bones are available for retrieval.

There was only black leviathan goop left behind. Nothing to indicate that Dean or Cas exploded. The human body is messy, so there would have been red mixed with the black. There wasn't.

When they disappeared, Sam's first words were "Where are they" That IMO, means he thinks they are still alive. Otherwise he would have asked "are they dead".

It was the exact same circumstances Dean disappeared back in the episode where Dean went back to the 40s. He disappeared in a flash of light. Then figured out how to communicate with Sam from a different decade.

So why would Sam automatically assume Dean was dead when he wasn't last time?

'No info" doesn't work since Sam was standing in Leviathan headquarters. There was also some leviathans alive, so Sam could have tracked them down and interrogated them.

Sam could have also tryed praying to Cas. If he was too sad Sam he could have reached out to Jody or Garth to ask them to monitor for signs.

Sam gave up without even trying, so IMO, Dean had every right to be upset that Sam didn't even make an effort.

Castiels Cat · December 8, 2019

13 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

There was only black leviathan goop left behind. Nothing to indicate that Dean or Cas exploded. The human body is messy, so there would have been red mixed with the black. There wasn't.

When they disappeared, Sam's first words were "Where are they" That IMO, means he thinks they are still alive. Otherwise he would have asked "are they dead".

It was the exact same circumstances Dean disappeared back in the episode where Dean went back to the 40s. He disappeared in a flash of light. Then figured out how to communicate with Sam from a different decade.

So why would Sam automatically assume Dean was dead when he wasn't last time?

'No info" doesn't work since Sam was standing in Leviathan headquarters. There was also some leviathans alive, so Sam could have tracked them down and interrogated them.

Sam could have also tryed praying to Cas. If he was too sad Sam he could have reached out to Jody or Garth to ask them to monitor for signs.

Sam gave up without even trying, so IMO, Dean had every right to be upset that Sam didn't even make an effort.

And Sam felt guilty, drank, took up with a woman just like Dean, took out his guilt on Benny and Dean...

The writers wanted to give him a dark human arc to push Dean into doing something reckless like taking on the MoC and becoming demonic to push Sam into going really dark and using the BotD and releasing the Darkness to remove the Mark. Carver essentially used Kripke's original plan of Sam goes dark to save Dean without letting Sam have a supernatural whitewash to explain his bad behavior. It was ugly to watch however now they are more mature I guess. The only nice part of the Jack episodes was seeing their maturity even if it was wasted on him.

FlickChick · December 8, 2019

2 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

That's true, but that's not what happened in 7x23. Unless Sam had the goo analyzed, he had no reason to believe Dean and Cas exploded along with Dick. They disappeared - just the facts of how it happened (while killing something supernatural) should have at least had Sam searching for answers, if not for Dean and Cas's bodies. There's just no good, in-show reason for him to have just walked away. "I was sad" just isn't enough.

And to me the worst part was ignoring what Sam himself said in response to the Alpha Vamp when he asked: "Where do we monsters go when we die?" Sam said "Purgatory". He also knew that the Leviathans came from Purgatory, so that's where Dick would have gone when he died and probably took Dean and Cas with him when he disappeared in goo. And I thought Sam was supposed to be the smart one...

ILoveReading · December 8, 2019

3 minutes ago, FlickChick said:

And to me the worst part was ignoring what Sam himself said in response to the Alpha Vamp when he asked: "Where do we monsters go when we die?" Sam said "Purgatory". He also knew that the Leviathans came from Purgatory, so that's where Dick would have gone when he died and probably took Dean and Cas with him when he disappeared in goo. And I thought Sam was supposed to be the smart one...

It sucks for Dean because in hindsight all Sam had to do to rescue him was to literally call a cab to go pick him up.

Res · December 9, 2019

4 hours ago, Castiels Cat said:

Taking from another thread. Discussion touched on the fact that Dean was ridiculous to expect Sam to look for him (s 8 or to be angry that he didn't.

Ummm... there is the entire military mindset of not leaving a man behind on a mission...A HUNT IS A MISSION! Also there was a teenager that had no experience with the supernatural that the Winchesters were responsible for that Sam also abandoned!!! Dean and I found this even more disturbing.

I guess we learned a fundamental difference between Dean and Sam. Dean should have known this because it was essential s 1 Pilot Dean had to talk Sam into looking for Dad and even then Sam just gave Dean a couple of days. Ii was only the need for revenge for Jessica that changed Sam's plan.it was not loyalty to his family. Throughout the seasons we see Sam from childhood run away from responsibility even if it meant Dean being beaten. And adult Sam just run away too even if it wasn't terribly safe or smart because of mytharc.

He finally grew out of that and he finally apologized to Dean in Love Hurts We know Sam felt guilty about it. Lucifer taunts him about it in s 11 and it's why imo he took on the trials.

There IS a fundamental difference between Dean and Sam, as you've stated, which is why I've never bought into the brother bond or moments. I, IMHO, can NEVER trust Sam to do anything unless he sees something of himself in it. I can turn his back on Dean and anyone else at the drop of a hat. This is what they have done with the character throughout the series. He is his own person, which is not a bad thing, except his needs, wants and drives are more important than anything else.

I know you believe and the writers are trying to make us believe that he has changed and is committed now. I just cannot as I know the writers will have Sam be his old self as soon as they need him to be. His apologies are in the same vein, IMO. The writers sacrificed his character and integrity to service the plot to his detriment and because of that I cannot trust him and I cannot believe when others, especially Dean, trust him.

Rant over. Just my opinion.

AwesomO4000 · December 9, 2019

Brought over from the "These spoilers suck" thread: no spoilers:

15 hours ago, Castiels Cat said:

Sam per the pilot originally hunted for revenge and because of their obsession with Sam tropes the writers struggled for him to find purpose in hunting until Carver. I am really glad the writing is continuing to give him that purpose even though they have reverted to the familiar something is wrong with Sam trope for the final season.

12 hours ago, Castiels Cat said:

And Sam felt guilty, drank, took up with a woman just like Dean, took out his guilt on Benny and Dean...

The writers wanted to give him a dark human arc to push Dean into doing something reckless like taking on the MoC and becoming demonic to push Sam into going really dark and using the BotD and releasing the Darkness to remove the Mark.

Carver essentially used Kripke's original plan of Sam goes dark to save Dean without letting Sam have a supernatural whitewash to explain his bad behavior.

I thought Sam's purpose for hunting was pretty straightforward for most of the series. Starting season 2, it was partially out of guilt after John's death and partially out of Sam's need to not be evil / try to make something good out of his situation.

Season 4 was iffy, but understandably so.

Starting season 5 it was to make up for his mistakes and that was strengthened in season 6B through 7 with giving Sam purpose. Sam liked having that purpose enough that it replaced his desire for a normal life - see "Swap Meat" and "The French Mistake" - and continuing into season 7, that purpose only got stronger as it helped to keep Sam focused and semi-sane. Even when Sam was dying in "The Born-Again Identity," helping Marin by solving her ghost problem helped to keep Sam grounded and gave him a purpose.

That was all pretty straight forward to me. It was Carver's suddenly having Sam say "screw it. This isn't my problem any more" and "Kevin? Who's Kevin?" that was the narrative struggling with making Sam's reasoning make sense. Even in "Mystery Spot" Sam hunted obsessively and for purpose - not just to find the Trickster to get Dean back, but other hunts also - so giving it up and shrugging his shoulders is what made no sense.

Carver just brought Sam back to where he had been before Carver screwed with his character and pretty much assassinated it. I don't buy the redoing Sam's redemption theory, because Carver added too many nasty other things in there - like abandoning Kevin, the whole Benny jealousy thing, and that "The Purge" speech - that wasn't necessary, and was mainly there for manufactured angst and to make Benny and Gadreel look good. Even Dean's character was sacrificed to make Benny look good, so there was more going on there than "fixing" Sam's arc, in my opinion.

Also, Sam's redemption from Carver was pretty weak. Not even a definite "I'm sorry," and given way down the line a season or so too late. Gamble's tenure gave us way more in that department than Carver did. The one main brother conflict - Amy - was resolved via compromise and a better understanding of one another afterwards. Which the Amy thing was another thing Carver retconned, made ugly, and then never resolved.

And then Carver had Dean go dark, giving him a "supernatural" excuse, and not really resolving that... except to excuse Dean's behavior. So why "fix" Sam's arc by supposedly taking away his "supernatural excuse" only to give Dean a supernatural excuse for his going dark? That sounds both a bit hypocritical - as in why is it only Sam's character that has to get the ugly redo arc? - and contradictory.

So it's hard for me to buy that Carver believed a "redo" redemption was needed for Sam when at the same time he repeated the supernatural excuse arc with Dean, except for Dean somehow it was okay, and no ugly "redo" was necessary. That pretty much defeats the entire argument for me right there.

I still think it was mainly an excuse for Carver to give his original characters a chance to shine and be the "real" heroes of the story... Until season 10 when he finally cut that shit out***, and the show was much, much better for it, in my opinion.

*** Well, mostly. He did still try to make Cole happen a few times.

Edited December 9, 2019 by AwesomO4000

ahrtee · December 9, 2019

16 hours ago, Res said:

There IS a fundamental difference between Dean and Sam, as you've stated, which is why I've never bought into the brother bond or moments. I, IMHO, can NEVER trust Sam to do anything unless he sees something of himself in it. I can turn his back on Dean and anyone else at the drop of a hat. This is what they have done with the character throughout the series. He is his own person, which is not a bad thing, except his needs, wants and drives are more important than anything else.

I think Sam's true tragedy is that he *wasn't* born into a "normal" family. If he had been, all his behavior, whether self-centered or only helping when he wants to, would be considered normal.

His main problem was that he had Dean as a brother, who brought self-sacrifice and duty and protecting family to arguably unhealthy standards. Of course, it's because his upbringing required it, and he embraced it; but it's still hard to live up to. And the fact that Jensen transcended what might have been way too "perfect", turning what could have been a caricature into someone 3-dimensional--annoying, admirable and tragic at the same time--tended to make Sam look ungrateful at best.

So while I can understand Sam as a character who would probably be interesting in any other show, in the SPN world he comes across to me as smug and self-important and not particularly heroic, no matter how the writers may try to paint him that way.

Castiels Cat · December 11, 2019

On 12/9/2019 at 12:36 PM, ahrtee said:

I think Sam's true tragedy is that he *wasn't* born into a "normal" family. If he had been, all his behavior, whether self-centered or only helping when he wants to, would be considered normal.

His main problem was that he had Dean as a brother, who brought self-sacrifice and duty and protecting family to arguably unhealthy standards. Of course, it's because his upbringing required it, and he embraced it; but it's still hard to live up to. And the fact that Jensen transcended what might have been way too "perfect", turning what could have been a caricature into someone 3-dimensional--annoying, admirable and tragic at the same time--tended to make Sam look ungrateful at best.

So while I can understand Sam as a character who would probably be interesting in any other show, in the SPN world he comes across to me as smug and self-important and not particularly heroic, no matter how the writers may try to paint him that way.

Wow. Well put. And the writers have shown us exactly how unhealthy Dean's characteristics are in recent seasons, most recently having used his propensity for self sacrifice to propel him into darkness via the Mark of Cain/demonic Dean and the despondent recklessness in season 13 which ultimately lead to him saying yes to AU Michael.

Castiels Cat · December 11, 2019

On 12/9/2019 at 4:25 AM, AwesomO4000 said:

Brought over from the "These spoilers suck" thread: no spoilers:

I thought Sam's purpose for hunting was pretty straightforward for most of the series. Starting season 2, it was partially out of guilt after John's death and partially out of Sam's need to not be evil / try to make something good out of his situation.

Season 4 was iffy, but understandably so.

Starting season 5 it was to make up for his mistakes and that was strengthened in season 6B through 7 with giving Sam purpose. Sam liked having that purpose enough that it replaced his desire for a normal life - see "Swap Meat" and "The French Mistake" - and continuing into season 7, that purpose only got stronger as it helped to keep Sam focused and semi-sane. Even when Sam was dying in "The Born-Again Identity," helping Marin by solving her ghost problem helped to keep Sam grounded and gave him a purpose.

That was all pretty straight forward to me. It was Carver's suddenly having Sam say "screw it. This isn't my problem any more" and "Kevin? Who's Kevin?" that was the narrative struggling with making Sam's reasoning make sense. Even in "Mystery Spot" Sam hunted obsessively and for purpose - not just to find the Trickster to get Dean back, but other hunts also - so giving it up and shrugging his shoulders is what made no sense.

Carver just brought Sam back to where he had been before Carver screwed with his character and pretty much assassinated it. I don't buy the redoing Sam's redemption theory, because Carver added too many nasty other things in there - like abandoning Kevin, the whole Benny jealousy thing, and that "The Purge" speech - that wasn't necessary, and was mainly there for manufactured angst and to make Benny and Gadreel look good. Even Dean's character was sacrificed to make Benny look good, so there was more going on there than "fixing" Sam's arc, in my opinion.

Also, Sam's redemption from Carver was pretty weak. Not even a definite "I'm sorry," and given way down the line a season or so too late. Gamble's tenure gave us way more in that department than Carver did. The one main brother conflict - Amy - was resolved via compromise and a better understanding of one another afterwards. Which the Amy thing was another thing Carver retconned, made ugly, and then never resolved.

And then Carver had Dean go dark, giving him a "supernatural" excuse, and not really resolving that... except to excuse Dean's behavior. So why "fix" Sam's arc by supposedly taking away his "supernatural excuse" only to give Dean a supernatural excuse for his going dark? That sounds both a bit hypocritical - as in why is it only Sam's character that has to get the ugly redo arc? - and contradictory.

So it's hard for me to buy that Carver believed a "redo" redemption was needed for Sam when at the same time he repeated the supernatural excuse arc with Dean, except for Dean somehow it was okay, and no ugly "redo" was necessary. That pretty much defeats the entire argument for me right there.

I still think it was mainly an excuse for Carver to give his original characters a chance to shine and be the "real" heroes of the story... Until season 10 when he finally cut that shit out***, and the show was much, much better for it, in my opinion.

*** Well, mostly. He did still try to make Cole happen a few times.

Dean going Dark was Dean or did you miss that. It was simply Dean without guilt, responsibility and mostly without his brother which is why it only lasted 3 episodes.

The entire point of Demon Dean was to fuel Sam's dark arc. That's why it was resolved so quickly. As established in s 3 and reestablished in episodes 10:1 and especially in 10:2 with its callbacks to s 3, Sam is horrified by the idea of Dean as a demon and tortured by the fact he didn't safe him previously.

Season 10 was about Sam going dark. The first 2 episodes showed Sam doing worse things than demon Dean. The entire season showed Sam doing worse things than MoC Dean. Sam tortured. Sam made demon deals. Sam agreed to assassinate someone as payment for a transaction. Sam lied to his brother and friends to get them to do things. Sam told Cas to have Oskar killed for a dark magic spell. Sam handed over powerful grimoires that the MoL locked away from witches to a powerful dark witch. And he used the BotD after he had been told that doing so would have cause a biblical catastrophe. He did all of this for personal reasons. None of this was for the greater Good.

In contrast the only killing Dean did was to save himself, his family or as part of the hunt. I consider the eradication of invading Steins hunting. The death of Rudy collateral damage. The dude was dead by his own incompetence already The fact that Dean was guilt ridden by his death and decided to check out as a result is in stark contrast to Sam who just keeps going despite Dean's near death, his own near death, Charlie's death...

Sam does not open his eyes until he sees the bodies pile up in the hospital after he has released the Darkness and Death literally walks in singing. Then he says. Okay. This is on me. I have to change. Cue... redemption arc.

Dean goes dark in a 13 when he recklessly pursues saving Mary, then Sam... and Jack despite the methods being ill advised. Billie told him not to jump between worlds. Anyone could see AU Michael was not a good plan. But...

Sam and Dean are different characters. Going dark isn't going to look the same. They both made mistakes trying to save family. It's a Winchester thing.

Ria · December 11, 2019

21 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

Wow. Well put. And the writers have shown us exactly how unhealthy Dean's characteristics are in recent seasons, most recently having used his propensity for self sacrifice to propel him into darkness via the Mark of Cain/demonic Dean and the despondent recklessness in season 13 which ultimately lead to him saying yes to AU Michael.

I’ve always seen Dean as rather mentally ill. Not psychotic or sociopathic obviously but more along the lines of untreated mood disorders, OCD, depression and a tendency to self medicate.

Sam is far more the stable “normal” one thrown into abnormal circumstances and doing his best to deal with it.

Castiels Cat · December 11, 2019

17 minutes ago, Ria said:

I’ve always seen Dean as rather mentally ill. Not psychotic or sociopathic obviously but more along the lines of untreated mood disorders, OCD, depression and a tendency to self medicate.

Sam is far more the stable “normal” one thrown into abnormal circumstances and doing his best to deal with it.

I am a Dean girl. That said I thought he was increasing unstable in season 13 and jensen the writers did a good job of showing it.

And yes Dean definitely has a tendency towards depression and self medication.

I think Sam has issues as well. Just My Imagination is a great episode to understand his character.

Their characters have both evolved from the parenting they received. Dean obviously was ridden hard and responsible for too much at a young age.

Sam felt left out and neglected and developed a chip on his shoulder as a result and felt like an outsider in his family.

Edited December 11, 2019 by Castiels Cat

AwesomO4000 · December 11, 2019

1 hour ago, Castiels Cat said:

Dean going Dark was Dean or did you miss that. It was simply Dean without guilt, responsibility and mostly without his brother which is why it only lasted 3 episodes.

For me, Dean going dark lasted a whole lot longer than 3 episodes. For me Dean going dark started with him deciding to take on the mark of Cain, and once that happened, Dean had the supernatural excuse of the mark fueling his actions - both before, during and after he became a demon.

Dean went through a lot of the same things that Sam did in his dark arc. Listening to a demon (in Dean's case, Crowley), justifying using the dark powers for good, arrogantly saying that because he was more powerful, that he got to make all of the calls and Sam's opinion was moot, because Sam wasn't as strong as he (Dean) was, going for revenge, trying to kill Sam, saying horrible things to Sam, etc. However, in Dean's case, his actions were not shown in the same bad light as Sam's were. Dean was justified when he killed Abaddon. He was justified in killing Death. Dean never had to apologize for taking on the mark. He never had to admit he was wrong for anything he did. Instead, Sam had to almost apologize to Dean, and infer that Dean was right to take on the mark.

And Dean never had to admit he was wrong about Gadreel either. There was never an apology for any of his actions. And much of it was excused because Dean was under the influence of the mark, so he had a supernatural excuse.

I personally don't see all that much difference between the arcs, but I see a lot of difference in how they were presented / treated. And if it is true that Carver put Sam's character through all of that character assassination to take away his "supernatural excuse" and give him a "real redemption" (I thought Sam's first one and the character growth he had the first time during seasons 5-7 was just fine, thank you very much), then why was Dean allowed to do basically the same thing with a supernatural excuse and instead be justified for it? Dean didn't have to apologize or even admit that anything he did was wrong - quite the opposite. He insisted he was right about both the mark and Gadreel, and then the narrative pretty much said that he was right. Dean didn't have to learn anything or change any of his opinions or do anything differently.

So I didn't miss Dean's dark arc. I missed the part where the narrative implied that it was the worst thing ever and Dean had to be dragged through the mud character-wise to make up for it. Apparently that only had to happen for Sam. Which is why I say that the explanation that Carver did what he did to "redeem" Sam falls flat for me if it's only Sam that has to go through that, while it's perfectly fine for Dean to be basically justified in his going dark with "supernatural excuses" for his actions. The entire message loses meaning for me in that case.

1 hour ago, Castiels Cat said:

Sam agreed to assassinate someone as payment for a transaction.

Again, this was Crowley... a demon who did horrible things to Sam's friends and to Dean. In my opinion, that Dean didn't try to kill Crowley - and just as bad, trusted Crowley - was even worse than Sam trying to kill him. In Sam's opinion it was pretty much win - win in terms of killing Crowley, and I can't say that I disagree.

1 hour ago, Castiels Cat said:

Sam told Cas to have Oskar killed for a dark magic spell.

Just because you keep saying this doesn't make it true. Sam never told Castiel to have Oskar killed. What Sam told Castiel was, "I need you to do this for me. Make the spell happen whatever it takes, please." That's it. Then he left, because Rudy needed Sam to help him with Dean who was going rogue on the vampire hunt.

The last Sam heard was that the only thing Rowena had loved was a peasant boy named Oskar - who had lived 300 years ago, and was therefor logically dead. The spell called for a sacrifice of "something" that Rowena loved. It could've been a pet. Hell it could have been the spell book itself or even Rowena's natural witchy powers both of which actually would've made a huge amount of sense since there is little that Rowena loved more than her natural power and independence.

So no, Sam did not tell Castiel to have Oskar killed. Sam didn't even know that Oskar was still alive. Neither did Castiel. It was Castiel who decided to go get help from Crowley, and it was Crowley who went and found Oskar once he heard the description of the last ingredient of the spell, all on his own initiative, in order to get revenge on Rowena. (More evidence that killing Crowley would've been the more just thing.)

Now I'm not saying at all that Sam wasn't far enough gone to contemplate a human sacrifice, but he never actually made that call. And there is no knowing that if he had been faced with that decision, whether he would have gone through with it or not. We will never know, because Sam wasn't there.

Now killing Crowely? Hell yes. Sam generally wanted to kill Crowley on principal already. Trying to kill Crowley was basically a recurring thing in their relationship, starting from the first moment they met. So killing Crowley for the spell would have been no problem, and I, for one, would have been saying "faster pussycat, kill kill." Because Crowley would have deserved it.

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In contrast the only killing Dean did was to save himself, his family or as part of the hunt. I consider the eradication of invading Steins hunting. The death of Rudy collateral damage. The dude was dead by his own incompetence already The fact that Dean was guilt ridden by his death and decided to check out as a result is in stark contrast to Sam who just keeps going despite Dean's near death, his own near death, Charlie's death...

I'm not sure what you mean here. Sam felt very guilty about Charlie (even though her death wasn't his fault). And Sam "kept going" because he was trying to save Dean.

For me, that one last Stein was a bit of a choice, even if arguably he was fairly bad. Doesn't mean he couldn't have been reformed though. And Rudy could have been saved, in my opinion. Dean was just too far gone to be bothered with not being reckless.

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Sam and Dean are different characters. Going dark isn't going to look the same. They both made mistakes trying to save family. It's a Winchester thing.

Actually for me, it did look quite a bit the same in a lot of ways. It was the consequences that were more different.

2 hours ago, Castiels Cat said:

I think Sam has issues as well. Just My Imagination is a great episode to understand his character.

You and I agree on this point... we just entirely disagree concerning what that episode said about Sam's character.

ILoveReading · December 11, 2019

12 hours ago, Ria said:

I’ve always seen Dean as rather mentally ill. Not psychotic or sociopathic obviously but more along the lines of untreated mood disorders, OCD, depression and a tendency to self medicate.

Sam is far more the stable “normal” one thrown into abnormal circumstances and doing his best to deal with it.

This is why I find Dean the far more interesting character. When I look at Dean in the pilot and Dean now, I see someone who has been bogged down by a hard life of loss, pain and suffering, but at the same time we see glimpes of season 1 Dean when he gets to cut lose and relax.

There is such a difference between Jensen and Dean when I see them in photos. He does such a good job of showing us the weight Dean has been carrying.

Anybody who has been through what Dean's been through, I d be surprised if they didn't suffer from some kind of mental illness. People who suffer from a mental illness can be the strongest people becuase of what they go through. Dean's basically been looking after everything and everyone since he was four. The tremendous burden he's carried and still puts one foot in front of the other shows just how strong he really is.

It doesnt' bother me that Dean falls down sometimes and needs help getting up. Everyone does.

Dean is such a multi-layered, complex 3D character he feels almost real at times.

Kudos to Jensen for still keeping Dean for creating my favorite fictional character of all time. , even in Dabbnatural where everyone has been sanded, polished and smoothed into caricatures and plot points, Sam especially . "Stable" perfect character are boring.

gonzosgirrl · December 11, 2019

17 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Anybody who has been through what Dean's been through, I d be surprised if they didn't suffer from some kind of mental illness.

Not to mention 40 years of being tortured in Hell (as far as I'm concerned, the last ten were torture for him, too) that he remembers every minute of. One of the things I hate the most about what they've done to Dean is the glossing over/minimizing of this, especially when they do it by comparing it to Sam's time in the cage. IMO, Sam got relieved of that trauma when Castiel took on his Hell memories/pain in 7x23 (you can argue that, but I won't be convinced), but even if he didn't, it doesn't change or minimize Dean's experience. Yet with only a very few, brief mentions of it in the ensuing 12 seasons, they practically pretend it never happened. Meanwhile we had a season's worth of Sam pain and it still comes into play thru the 14th season (and no doubt it will again before it's over).

Edited December 11, 2019 by gonzosgirrl

ILoveReading · December 11, 2019

13 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Not to mention 40 years of being tortured in Hell (as far as I'm concerned, the last ten were torture for him, too) that he remembers every minute of. One of the things I hate the most about what they've done to Dean is the glossing over/minimizing of this, especially when they do it by comparing it to Sam's time in the cage. IMO, Sam got relieved of that trauma when Castiel took on his Hell memories/pain in 7x23 (you can argue that, but I won't be convinced), but even if he didn't, it doesn't change or minimize Dean's experience. Yet with only a very few, brief mentions of it in the ensuing 12 seasons, they practically pretend it never happened. Meanwhile we had a season's worth of Sam pain and it still comes into play thru the 14th season (and no doubt it will again before it's over).

This is why I don't care anything about Sam's time. I mute it or fastforward it. The way they had Dean degrade his own time there so Sam can be the bigger, shiner woobie. At this point no one will convince me its not a written rule in the writers room, that whatever Dean gets Sam must get 10fold.

I mean Dean's connection to Amara was back burnered and never really developed. The connection never really explained, but now that its Sam its been dealt with in almost every episode.

Edited December 11, 2019 by ILoveReading

Myrelle · December 11, 2019

20 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

This is why I don't care anything about Sam's time. I mute it or fastforward it. The way they had Dean degrade his own time there so Sam can be the bigger, shiner woobie. At this point no one will convince me its not a written rule in the writers room, that whatever Dean gets Sam must get 10fold.

I mean Dean's connection to Amara was back burnered and never really developed. The connection never really explained, but now that its Sam its been dealt with in almost every episode.

ITA with this sentiment and it's made me see Red since S5.

I will just never understand that apparent mindset in the writers' room.

It has not made Sam more popular, but it has, IMO, driven away many Dean fans-and especially those who view Dean as a character unto himself and not just the lesser half of any twitter/tumblr-inspired shipper's dream duo.

Blech.

So relieved that there's only a half season more of this drek for him(and again, for no few of us in his fandom) to have to slog through.

Edited December 11, 2019 by Myrelle
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passatoepresente · December 11, 2019

3 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

I mean Dean's connection to Amara was back burnered and never really developed. The connection never really explained, but now that its Sam its been dealt with in almost every episode.

We had a Whole season about Dean and Amara

passatoepresente · December 11, 2019

3 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Not to mention 40 years of being tortured in Hell (as far as I'm concerned, the last ten were torture for him, too) that he remembers every minute of. One of the things I hate the most about what they've done to Dean is the glossing over/minimizing of this, especially when they do it by comparing it to Sam's time in the cage.

Dean was the first to minimize it: in swang song he said to Sam "Compared to yours, my hell will look like Graceland". Dean was tortured for 30 years, Sam I think for more than 120. I don't remember Sam talking a lot about his experience, I know more about Dean's one

AwesomO4000 · December 11, 2019

12 minutes ago, passatoepresente said:

We had a Whole season about Dean and Amara

Capped off with Dean's personal relationship to Chuck and after a season and a half with at least some focus on Dean's relationship with Crowley.

I just don't see the lack of focus on Dean in those storylines. Just because Sam got half season arc with Lucifer (which then shifted over to Castiel and Sam's part was dropped), didn't mean that Amara and Dean's connection wasn't a focus. Quite a few of the monster of the week episodes in season 11 tied in with Amara along with quite a few actual episodes that focused on Dean and Amarra's connection, including the finale where Dean's connection to Amara was the main plot point and the reason for the conclusion of the entire arc.

Fortunately for me, I enjoy both brothers having storylines, so that I don't have to spend time resenting the fact that one or the other of them is onscreen.

Aeryn13 · December 11, 2019

48 minutes ago, passatoepresente said:

We had a Whole season about Dean and Amara

Where they downplayed and sidelined it as much as possible. And made sure the Finale wasn't epic AND random old lady got to be the one to truly influence Amara, not Dean.

Of course nothing beats last Season where they downplayed any potential for Michael, then unceremoniously dropped him to focus on a secondary character.

Now Sam has the connection to Chuck while Dean has no place in the current story. It shows as the character has barely figured into the Season so far. Bar one episode he had a scene or two of being gloomy Gus and several of being incompetent clown.

Meanwhile they write a halo around Sam.

gonzosgirrl · December 11, 2019

1 hour ago, passatoepresente said:

Dean was the first to minimize it: in swang song he said to Sam "Compared to yours, my hell will look like Graceland". Dean was tortured for 30 years, Sam I think for more than 120. I don't remember Sam talking a lot about his experience, I know more about Dean's one

I don't care who was doing the talking, it was the writers minimizing it. Sam didn't have to talk about his experience - everyone else did. They showed us, for the better part of seasons 6 & 7, and many times afterward. His connection/trauma with Lucifer continued right up through last season. They couldn't even give Dean one single line when he was forced to return to Hell to rescue Sam in S11. We got a look of hesitation from Dean because Jensen, again, had to find what wasn't on the page.

So yeah, if you know more about Dean's experience and trauma than Sam's, I'd like to watch that show.

Edited December 11, 2019 by gonzosgirrl

ILoveReading · December 11, 2019

2 hours ago, passatoepresente said:

We had a Whole season about Dean and Amara

Which was back burned for almost the entire season.

The first few times it was mentioned it was just a repeat of what we saw in the pilot. I'll admit they did a good job setting it up, but once they called her God's sister and brought back Lucifer it was pretty much dropped.

Even during episode 9, it was just a repeat of "we're connected," It never explained the nature of that connection. It couldn't have just been the mark because Lucifer had it too and she didn't have that connection.

Also when Amara didn't take Dean's soul. An important plot point as to whether she couldn't or wouldn't, Carver answer is "the fans can decide." Which shows how little thought was actually put into the story.

Don't even get me started on Dabb blowing off Jensen when he asked for help with Michael.

Dean was also made to call himself weak, and say he couldn't do it. No one, not even Sam corrected this perception.

In episode 18, when Amara resurfaced she was searching out Rowena, not Dean.

In the finale, the pigeon lady made sure to soften Amara up.

None of that will happen when it comes time to for Sam to soften up God. They even gave Sam the Mark by cheapening being worthy. Apparently that just means you never had to have it before. Of course where Dean took it in a moment of weakness Sam had to get it as as a sacrifice.

The Amara storyline was as botched as the Michael one and it was clear that Dabb's interest in it was less than zero after he brought back his shiny Lucifer toy.

Even the finale was supposed to be majorly different. Even Jared and Jensen talked about potentially ending the season at 22 because it had to be rewritten that much.

Edited December 11, 2019 by ILoveReading

gonzosgirrl · December 11, 2019

Even if I don't agree with the viewpoints, I'll concede it could be argued over who got better/fairer/jucier/kinder-any-other-er-er story lines. But I don't think Sam ever got his entire storyline at best glossed over, or worse, ignored, or worst of all, handed off to another character, especially not a secondary character (like Adam or Jack). I will never believe that there wasn't showrunner/writer bias against Dean/Jensen in the last 2/3rds of this series, particularly the Dabb era. Never. Especially since, IMO, regardless of how Sam ended up looking (to some) as a result of the last 2/3rds, the writers and showrunners made their intentions clear, time and again.

Edited December 11, 2019 by gonzosgirrl

passatoepresente · December 11, 2019

3 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I don't care who was doing the talking, it was the writers minimizing it. Sam didn't have to talk about his experience - everyone else did. They showed us, for the better part of seasons 6 & 7, and many times afterward. His connection/trauma with Lucifer continued right up through last season. They couldn't even give Dean one single line when he was forced to return to Hell to rescue Sam in S11. We got a look of hesitation from Dean because Jensen, again, had to find what wasn't on the page.

So yeah, if you know more about Dean's experience and trauma than Sam's, I'd like to watch that show.

Can you tell me what really happened to Sam while he was in the cage and when this is said? I really don't remember but I remember what happened to Dean because he told it to Sam: for the first 30 years every day he was ripped apart and then healed so that Alastair could start again the day after. The last 10 years Dean became the torturer. I don't know anything so specific about Sam. The qualities of Dean as torturer are then recalled several times over the seasons

gonzosgirrl · December 12, 2019

26 minutes ago, passatoepresente said:

Can you tell me what really happened to Sam while he was in the cage and when this is said? I really don't remember but I remember what happened to Dean because he told it to Sam: for the first 30 years every day he was ripped apart and then healed so that Alastair could start again the day after. The last 10 years Dean became the torturer. I don't know anything so specific about Sam. The qualities of Dean as torturer are then recalled several times over the seasons

There is a difference between a few details told in one or two scenes of a couple episodes, and a story with a through-line told over seasons and still being recognized today. We had multiple images of Sam burning and cut/bleeding in his hellucinations, we had Lucifer taunting him in episode after episode. We had Death and Castiel telling us how shredded and damaged his soul was, so much so that the memories of it would kill him. Just because Sam never said the words in specific detail, doesn't mean we weren't told the story, time and again. Then when Sam had to return to the cage in S11, we were both shown and told how hard it was for him. Even then they didn't acknowledge that Dean had ever been there. And generally when it has been mentioned, it was only to tell us how Sam had it so much worse. And they freaking made Dean say it. Contrast that with Sam basically saying Dean was weak and whiny and should get the fuck over it.

Edited December 12, 2019 by gonzosgirrl
Typo

AwesomO4000 · December 12, 2019

3 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

But I don't think Sam ever got his entire storyline at best glossed over, or worse, ignored, or worst of all, handed off to another character, especially not a secondary character (like Adam or Jack).

Season 9. Sam's Gadreel storyline started out promisingly, but eventually got twisted into something completely different. Instead of Sam's feelings being explored, the feelings part of the story was turned over to how Dean felt, and Sam was eventually made to look badly for his being angry. What happened to Sam was then minimized*** and the story was handed over to Gadreel. ...So much so that Sam had to say that he was maybe partly responsible for Kevin's death, and then he spent the last few episodes of the season talking up Gadreel. Sam even had to call Gadreel a good friend and then go looking for Gadreel, so that he (Gadreel) could go off and have the hero's sacrifice to help in saving the world. Meanwhile Sam was knocked out somewhere and played absolutely no part in saving the world from Metatron, even though everyone else had an important part to play.

I actually think that storyline covered all of the things you mentioned there. Not only was Sam's storyline glossed over, ignored and then handed over to Gadreel, but Sam was unconscious for the conclusion of it and not even onscreen until all of the action was over. And then the entire point of it was to show how wrong Sam had been to be angry with and judge Dean. And to judge poor, misunderstood, "good friend" Gadreel. So not only was the good stuff handed over to Gadreel, Sam was made out to be the one in the wrong in the entire scenario even though he had arguably been the victim of Gadreel to begin with.

For me that - and the season 8, Not looking for Dean / Amelia / jealous of Benny fiasco - were the worst storylines in the entire show. Though Sam inexplicably joining the BMoL - who had tortured him - was pretty close.

And even though Sam's storyline in season 11 was fairly well done for the first half of the season, that was pretty much dropped later on to focus on Castiel and Lucifer, too. How insulting was it that Sam had to let Lucifer use his room and supposedly be okay with that, which really? And Sam's contribution to the final solution was to be cheerleader while everyone else - including Crowley and Rowena - came up with the actual solution. Well Sam did help collect souls, but Billie Death did most of the heavy lifting in that department. Though I'm not sure that was handing Sam's story off to Lucifer so much as the writers maybe kind of forgot to give Sam a clear arc in the second half of the season.

Somehow I still loved much of season 11 though.

*** Sam even had to say stuff like Gadreel was maybe only "misunderstood" and a "good friend" (WtH?) and that after thinking about it, Gadreel didn't seem like he had wanted to hurt Sam which really show? I saw Gadreel threaten to kill Sam more than once, violate his mind, and erase his memories. I would consider all of those things hurtful.

AwesomO4000 · December 12, 2019

5 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

Even during episode 9, it was just a repeat of "we're connected," It never explained the nature of that connection. It couldn't have just been the mark because Lucifer had it too and she didn't have that connection.

Having a focal storyline doesn't necessarily mean having the details explained on this show. In season 4, they had Sam addicted to demon blood without them telling us that's what it was for a majority of the season, and then without them explaining exactly how the blood affected Sam (was it necessary for his power or not), or even why Sam decided to start drinking the demon blood to begin with even though those were arguably extremely important details to understand how Sam got to where he was.

ahrtee · December 12, 2019

27 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Sam even had to say stuff like Gadreel was maybe only "misunderstood" and a "good friend" (WtH?) and that after thinking about it, Gadreel didn't seem like he had wanted to hurt Sam which really show? I saw Gadreel threaten to kill Sam more than once, violate his mind, and erase his memories. I would consider all of those things hurtful.

Actually, all of that was after Gadreel had been outed (or corrupted by Metatron, if you want to put it that way) and while Dean and Cas were trying to expel him. Before that, he was doing what he promised--quietly healing Sam (and benefiting himself only by keeping a low profile). You also have to remember that he brought Cas, Sam and Charlie back to life when he had nothing to gain from it (except Dean's gratitude). I'd consider that a good guy.

The closest to a threat he made was to leave Sam and therefore stop the healing. That's not the same as threatening to kill him. As for erasing his memories and "violating his mind," AFAIK, other than the Metatron-ordered murders, he never did anything that Sam wouldn't have done, and, in fact, tried to live up to his standards. I don't think he erased the memories but just pushed Sam's consciousness to the background. Sam obviously still had his memories or he wouldn't have the vision of killing Kevin to haunt him.

Once he started listening to Metatron and believing that he deserved better, that's when he started doing "evil." And that, if you think about it, matches season 4 Sam--wanting redemption, trying to prove that he's not evil, but being led astray by someone with bad intentions, because of his own pride and need for redemption. I could see Sam feeling sympathy towards Gadreel, once he stopped to think about what he'd actually done and felt about being tricked.

I'd say Dean should be the one to feel betrayed and unwilling to forgive, because not only did he believe Gadreel truly wanted to help, but he knew he'd deliberately hurt Sam because he believed in the angel.

ETA: This is not to say that I didn't have a WTF moment when Sam said "your *real* friends" and threw Gadreel in Dean's face, though that may have been whiplash over Sam's change of mind.

Edited December 12, 2019 by ahrtee

gonzosgirrl · December 12, 2019

And yet in all those things you mentioned @AwesomO4000 Sam was still front and center in the story. And it was Jensen who made Dean sympathetic, when it was clearly not the intention of the writers. They didnt give Sam's story to Gadreel, he (Sam) was always part of it. We'll never see eye to eye on this though.

ILoveReading · December 12, 2019

1 minute ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Having a focal storyline doesn't necessarily mean having the details explained on this show. In season 4, they had Sam addicted to demon blood without them telling us that's what it was for a majority of the season, and then without them explaining exactly how the blood affected Sam (was it necessary for his power or not), or even why Sam decided to start drinking the demon blood to begin with even though those were arguably extremely important details to understand how Sam got to where he was.

But it was explained, even if it came late in the season. We knew that Sam was up to something becuase we saw him sneaking around and lying and using his powers. So even if the reveal came late, the story line was not back burned and it was certainly a focal point.

There was an entire episode that showed up the back story of how Ruby manipulated Sam and where were shown that drinking the demon blood gave Sam powers and that the more he drank, the stronger he become. But that is was also like a drug and very addictive.

As to whether it was Sam or the demon blood, IMO that is fairly obvious since Sam hasn't had powers since then. The only thing that was really murky was the feather line. I always felt like that applied to Sam's choices, because as I said, no blood no powers.

With Amara there were none.

Why Dean just and not Lucifer?

What exactly was the connection?

Why didn't she take Deans' soul?

Three major questions and none of them touched on. The connection was never explored beyond them just telling us we had one and even that was pretty much dropped.

Shannonsspirit · December 12, 2019

26 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

But it was explained, even if it came late in the season. We knew that Sam was up to something becuase we saw him sneaking around and lying and using his powers. So even if the reveal came late, the story line was not back burned and it was certainly a focal point.

There was an entire episode that showed up the back story of how Ruby manipulated Sam and where were shown that drinking the demon blood gave Sam powers and that the more he drank, the stronger he become. But that is was also like a drug and very addictive.

As to whether it was Sam or the demon blood, IMO that is fairly obvious since Sam hasn't had powers since then. The only thing that was really murky was the feather line. I always felt like that applied to Sam's choices, because as I said, no blood no powers.

With Amara there were none.

Why Dean just and not Lucifer?

What exactly was the connection?

Why didn't she take Deans' soul?

Three major questions and none of them touched on. The connection was never explored beyond them just telling us we had one and even that was pretty much dropped.

Why just Dean and not Lucifer?

It is the last who bears the mark, that serves as both lock and key.

What exactly was the connection?

As the final bearer of the lock on Amara, she perceives Dean as the one who removed the lock. She had said several times that Dean freed her. She has also said that Dean is the first of her brother's creation that she has seen. Additionally, their connection is seen several times when she is in his head, and when they meet, and when she saves him from Crowley, and many other references to numerous to list.

Why didnt she take Dean's soul?

In the end, she would have, no doubt. However, she wanted him to surrender to her and become one. Dean to freely see he belonged with her, to achieve bliss and boundlessness with her.

Castiels Cat · December 12, 2019

22 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

For me, Dean going dark lasted a whole lot longer than 3 episodes. For me Dean going dark started with him deciding to take on the mark of Cain, and once that happened, Dean had the supernatural excuse of the mark fueling his actions - both before, during and after he became a demon.

Dean went through a lot of the same things that Sam did in his dark arc. Listening to a demon (in Dean's case, Crowley), justifying using the dark powers for good, arrogantly saying that because he was more powerful, that he got to make all of the calls and Sam's opinion was moot, because Sam wasn't as strong as he (Dean) was, going for revenge, trying to kill Sam, saying horrible things to Sam, etc. However, in Dean's case, his actions were not shown in the same bad light as Sam's were. Dean was justified when he killed Abaddon. He was justified in killing Death. Dean never had to apologize for taking on the mark. He never had to admit he was wrong for anything he did. Instead, Sam had to almost apologize to Dean, and infer that Dean was right to take on the mark.

And Dean never had to admit he was wrong about Gadreel either. There was never an apology for any of his actions. And much of it was excused because Dean was under the influence of the mark, so he had a supernatural excuse.

I personally don't see all that much difference between the arcs, but I see a lot of difference in how they were presented / treated. And if it is true that Carver put Sam's character through all of that character assassination to take away his "supernatural excuse" and give him a "real redemption" (I thought Sam's first one and the character growth he had the first time during seasons 5-7 was just fine, thank you very much), then why was Dean allowed to do basically the same thing with a supernatural excuse and instead be justified for it? Dean didn't have to apologize or even admit that anything he did was wrong - quite the opposite. He insisted he was right about both the mark and Gadreel, and then the narrative pretty much said that he was right. Dean didn't have to learn anything or change any of his opinions or do anything differently.

So I didn't miss Dean's dark arc. I missed the part where the narrative implied that it was the worst thing ever and Dean had to be dragged through the mud character-wise to make up for it. Apparently that only had to happen for Sam. Which is why I say that the explanation that Carver did what he did to "redeem" Sam falls flat for me if it's only Sam that has to go through that, while it's perfectly fine for Dean to be basically justified in his going dark with "supernatural excuses" for his actions. The entire message loses meaning for me in that case.

Again, this was Crowley... a demon who did horrible things to Sam's friends and to Dean. In my opinion, that Dean didn't try to kill Crowley - and just as bad, trusted Crowley - was even worse than Sam trying to kill him. In Sam's opinion it was pretty much win - win in terms of killing Crowley, and I can't say that I disagree.

Just because you keep saying this doesn't make it true. Sam never told Castiel to have Oskar killed. What Sam told Castiel was, "I need you to do this for me. Make the spell happen whatever it takes, please." That's it. Then he left, because Rudy needed Sam to help him with Dean who was going rogue on the vampire hunt.

The last Sam heard was that the only thing Rowena had loved was a peasant boy named Oskar - who had lived 300 years ago, and was therefor logically dead. The spell called for a sacrifice of "something" that Rowena loved. It could've been a pet. Hell it could have been the spell book itself or even Rowena's natural witchy powers both of which actually would've made a huge amount of sense since there is little that Rowena loved more than her natural power and independence.

So no, Sam did not tell Castiel to have Oskar killed. Sam didn't even know that Oskar was still alive. Neither did Castiel. It was Castiel who decided to go get help from Crowley, and it was Crowley who went and found Oskar once he heard the description of the last ingredient of the spell, all on his own initiative, in order to get revenge on Rowena. (More evidence that killing Crowley would've been the more just thing.)

Now I'm not saying at all that Sam wasn't far enough gone to contemplate a human sacrifice, but he never actually made that call. And there is no knowing that if he had been faced with that decision, whether he would have gone through with it or not. We will never know, because Sam wasn't there.

Now killing Crowely? Hell yes. Sam generally wanted to kill Crowley on principal already. Trying to kill Crowley was basically a recurring thing in their relationship, starting from the first moment they met. So killing Crowley for the spell would have been no problem, and I, for one, would have been saying "faster pussycat, kill kill." Because Crowley would have deserved it.

I'm not sure what you mean here. Sam felt very guilty about Charlie (even though her death wasn't his fault). And Sam "kept going" because he was trying to save Dean.

For me, that one last Stein was a bit of a choice, even if arguably he was fairly bad. Doesn't mean he couldn't have been reformed though. And Rudy could have been saved, in my opinion. Dean was just too far gone to be bothered with not being reckless.

Actually for me, it did look quite a bit the same in a lot of ways. It was the consequences that were more different.

You and I agree on this point... we just entirely disagree concerning what that episode said about Sam's character.

Dean took on the MoC in a moment of self loathing without reading the fine print in order to kill Abaddon and he stupidly assumed that any collateral damage would be on him. He was doing pretty well at controlling it if only he had a support system that believed in him. It was not really at all like Sam and Ruby because dean is nothing like Sam AT ALL and unlike Ruby Crowley did not dangle sex or hubris in front of him to lure him in. Dean wanted to sacrifice himself because he believed he had lost Sam and he might as well go out big and do some good while he was at it. That is Dean in a nutshell. If you cannot see that you do not understand Dean at all.

Crowley gets Dean and for me their dance in s 9 was dynamite. Crowley was the one witness to what was happening with Dean in the back half of the season. MS's performance is masterful and pivotal.

Read the transcript for Brother's Keeper. Sam knew. No question. I have read it recently and it is clear he knew. You can google it as easily as I can. It is a black grimoire that required a blood sacrifice. And there are means to time travel. Make it happen means just that. Get Oskar and make it happen. He wanted the sacrifice to happen so that the spell worked. All he cared about was getting the Mark of of Dean. Nothing else mattered. He brokered a demon deal and did every other manner of horrible thing that season... ????

The fact is Dean as a demon reigned himself in and human Sam didn't. MoC Dean reigned himself in and felt such remorse even though it wasn't even his actions that lead to a man's death that he decided to end his own life or exile himself rather than see it happen again. Sam he just keeps on making bad choices, lying, getting people killed. Crowley reigned himself in!!! He chose not to kill Sam out of respect for Dean which was more than Sam deserved. Sam was by far the worst in comparison to all three.

In fact in The Prisoner they did a neat bit of editing in the action sequences towards the ends. They juxtapose the sequences in which Papa Stein attempts to kill Dean with that of Sam attempting to kill Crowley in such a way that Papa Stein and Sam are mirrored and Dean and Crowley are mirrored. Initially both appear to be overpowered before they triumph over their adversary. This makes Dean and Crowley the heroes and Papa Stein and Sam the villains who are defeated. Dean dispatches his enemy. Crowley shows mercy. It's not a good look for Sam. Neither was the Earth opening up like clockwork and people dying because he used the BotD exactly like Dean predicted it would which is why he begged him not to do it.

ILoveReading · December 12, 2019

9 minutes ago, Shannonsspirit said:

It is the last who bears the mark, that serves as both lock and key.

Then technically Sam should have been the one to confront Amara because he was the last one to bear the mark.

9 minutes ago, Shannonsspirit said:

As the final bearer of the lock on Amara, she perceives Dean as the one who removed the lock. She had said several times that Dean freed her. She has also said that Dean is the first of her brother's creation that she has seen. Additionally, their connection is seen several times when she is in his head, and when they meet, and when she saves him from Crowley, and many other references to numerous to list.

She thinks Dean's freed her, but that isn't true. Its actually Sam who released her. As for their connection it was a repeat of the same scene over and over. I think she saved him from Crowley in episode 2. I don't remember her saving hm again. Dean was in her grasp in episode 6, but he broke free when she threatened Sam. She stood by and let him almost die in Red Meat.

He was also in danger in Into the Mystic- no Amara

Love Hurts- he was cursed and could have died, no Amara

The Vessel- almost trapped the past, no Amara

Safe House- possesed by Ghost, no Amara

Dean was in danger many times that season. No Amara.

Why didn't she show up to try and stop him? She didn't really seem to care if he lived or died. IMO, When she resurfaced in episode 18, she was looking for Rowena. Why make Dean say that he was too weak around her when we saw that he can break free given the right circumstances.

The bond was mentioned over and over, but it was never really explored.

Even in episode 10, Cas went to see Amara, because Dean came down with never seen before or since smiting sickness.

As for the the soul, it was direct quote from Carver that 'fans could decide,' If he can't be bothereed to explain that important plot point, that says to me he never really put any thought or effort into the storyline other then, "they are connected."

Edited December 12, 2019 by ILoveReading

Castiels Cat · December 12, 2019

56 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Actually, all of that was after Gadreel had been outed (or corrupted by Metatron, if you want to put it that way) and while Dean and Cas were trying to expel him. Before that, he was doing what he promised--quietly healing Sam (and benefiting himself only by keeping a low profile). You also have to remember that he brought Cas, Sam and Charlie back to life when he had nothing to gain from it (except Dean's gratitude). I'd consider that a good guy.

The closest to a threat he made was to leave Sam and therefore stop the healing. That's not the same as threatening to kill him. As for erasing his memories and "violating his mind," AFAIK, other than the Metatron-ordered murders, he never did anything that Sam wouldn't have done, and, in fact, tried to live up to his standards. I don't think he erased the memories but just pushed Sam's consciousness to the background. Sam obviously still had his memories or he wouldn't have the vision of killing Kevin to haunt him.

Once he started listening to Metatron and believing that he deserved better, that's when he started doing "evil." And that, if you think about it, matches season 4 Sam--wanting redemption, trying to prove that he's not evil, but being led astray by someone with bad intentions, because of his own pride and need for redemption. I could see Sam feeling sympathy towards Gadreel, once he stopped to think about what he'd actually done and felt about being tricked.

I'd say Dean should be the one to feel betrayed and unwilling to forgive, because not only did he believe Gadreel truly wanted to help, but he knew he'd deliberately hurt Sam because he believed in the angel.

ETA: This is not to say that I didn't have a WTF moment when Sam said "your *real* friends" and threw Gadreel in Dean's face, though that may have been whiplash over Sam's change of mind.

Gadreel was seduced/corrupted by Metatron... very easily. Up until that point he had seemed to keep his word.

3 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Then technically Sam should have been the one to confront Amara because he was the last one to bear the mark.

She thinks Dean's freed her, but that isn't true. Its actually Sam who released her. As for their connection it was a repeat of the same scene over and over. I think she saved him from Crowley in episode 2. I don't remember her saving hm again. Dean was in her grasp in episode 6, but he broke free when she threatened Sam. She stood by and let him almost die in Red Meat. Why didn't she show up to try and stop him? She didn't really seem to care if he lived or died. IMO, When she resurfaced in episode 18, she was looking for Rowena. Why make Dean say that he was too weak around her when we saw that he can break free given the right circumstances.

The bond was mentioned over and over, but it was never really explored.

Even in episode 10, Cas went to see Amara, because Dean came down with never seen before or since smiting sickness.

As for the the soul, it was direct quote from Carver that 'fans could decide,' If he can't be bothereed to explain that important plot point, that says to me he never really put any thought or effort into the storyline other then, "they are connected."

Does seconds of wincing in agony count.

Shannonsspirit · December 12, 2019

2 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Then technically Sam should have been the one to confront Amara because he was the last one to bear the mark.

She thinks Dean's freed her, but that isn't true. Its actually Sam who released her. As for their connection it was a repeat of the same scene over and over. I think she saved him from Crowley in episode 2. I don't remember her saving hm again. Dean was in her grasp in episode 6, but he broke free when she threatened Sam. She stood by and let him almost die in Red Meat. Why didn't she show up to try and stop him? She didn't really seem to care if he lived or died. IMO, When she resurfaced in episode 18, she was looking for Rowena. Why make Dean say that he was too weak around her when we saw that he can break free given the right circumstances.

The bond was mentioned over and over, but it was never really explored.

Even in episode 10, Cas went to see Amara, because Dean came down with never seen before or since smiting sickness.

As for the the soul, it was direct quote from Carver that 'fans could decide,' If he can't be bothereed to explain that important plot point, that says to me he never really put any thought or effort into the storyline other then, "they are connected."

When Amara appeared to be in her teens in Crowley's earthly Hell, she saved Dean. "What is happening between us ? I save you, you save me." Aside from the numerous comments, conversations, mind visits, real visits, I'm not sure what else needs to be established and explored.

As far as Sam goes, he is largely inconsequential to her. The mark was on Dean and now it's gone and she is free.

ILoveReading · December 12, 2019

1 minute ago, Shannonsspirit said:

When Amara appeared to be in her teens in Crowley's earthly Hell, she saved Dean. "What is happening between us ? I save you, you save me." Aside from the numerous comments, conversations, mind visits, real visits, I'm not sure what else needs to be established and explored.

As far as Sam goes, he is largely inconsequential to her. The mark was on Dean and now it's gone and she is free.

Episode one established an potentially interesting storyine, and I felt the first five episodes built it up nicely. But then they announced that Amara was God's sister and I felt like something changed behind the scenes.

After episode 6, the only times I remember Dean and Amara interacting was in episode 9 when they met and again was just Amara reinterating they were connected and then her not taking his soul, with no explanation given and none even thought of.

Dean had the vision in episode 14.

Amara also told Dean no harm would come to him but that wasn't true. Why did she stop caring if he lived or died? The next time they interacted was episode 18, when she showed up for Rowena, and even then her reaction to Dean was minimal at best.

Then when God showed up Amara, who spent the entire time looking for God warder herself for no other reason than ~~it wasn't the season finale~~ reasons.

There was lots left to explore. Especially from Amara's side of things.

AwesomO4000 · December 12, 2019

10 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

The closest to a threat he made was to leave Sam and therefore stop the healing.

I was pretty sure at one time at least Gadreel told Dean that he could make Sam swallow his tongue or something like that? Maybe I'm remembering it wrongly. It didn't seem to me though that Gadreel was just threatening to leave Sam. And I'm also pretty sure he told Dean at least once that he could just erase Sam's memories so he wouldn't remember - I think it was the case with the witch guy who was taking the characteristics of certain animals.

Gadreel also looked into Sam's mind and used Sam's thoughts and private feelings against him.

18 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

You also have to remember that he brought Cas, Sam and Charlie back to life when he had nothing to gain from it (except Dean's gratitude). I'd consider that a good guy.

By healing those people he gained Dean's trust which made it easier for him to convince Dean to let him have free reign with Sam's body. He could also claim that now it would take much longer to heal Sam so that he could justify staying longer. If Gadreel was entirely good, I don't think he would have threatened Dean so often and put so many stipulations on the situation.

To me it was obvious that Gadreel was doing more than just staying in the background, healing Sam. He was taking over Sam without his knowledge or consent and using Sam's body to go do things. I don't remember exactly how Gadreel got involved with Metatron, but if he had been doing what he said he would do to begin with, I don't think he would have been corrupted by Metatron in the first place.

And some of that stuff was pretty bad. How gullible was Gadreel supposed to be? Because when is luring fellow angels in with a call just to kill them ever supposed to be considered good?

25 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

I don't think he erased the memories but just pushed Sam's consciousness to the background.

How is that not a crappy thing? Sam was having multiple periods of lost time - sometimes hours at a time. That's not cool in my opinion.

27 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Sam obviously still had his memories or he wouldn't have the vision of killing Kevin to haunt him.

I think Gadreel was getting sloppy at that point. Sam didn't mention remembering Gadreel killing all of the other angels / people Gadreel did (and there were a LOT), and if he did, I'm not sure "misunderstood" should have been his choice of word for Gadreel. Sam likely might have known a lot more of Metatron's plan than he did if Sam did still have those memories.

Quote

And that, if you think about it, matches season 4 Sam--wanting redemption, trying to prove that he's not evil, but being led astray by someone with bad intentions, because of his own pride and need for redemption. I could see Sam feeling sympathy towards Gadreel, once he stopped to think about what he'd actually done and felt about being tricked.

This is actually an interesting point and something that I am going to have to think about.
And if the show had actually gone this route and had Sam explain something to that effect, rather than just say that Gadreel didn't "feel evil" (or whatever it was he said) then I might have seen this more. It wouldn't have taken much for them to have Sam say something like "Maybe he thought he was doing the right thing but listened to the wrong person and got really lost on the way. I understand how that can happen." Not all of the stuff that instead minimized what Sam went through and then blamed Sam for not preventing Kevin's death. The writers even made it sound like Sam had known that something else was in his body - which contradicted everything we'd seen before - and that he should have known that entity was up to no good... while at the same time saying that entity didn't seem to have dangerous intentions.

That scene really irked me.

26 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

And yet in all those things you mentioned @AwesomO4000 Sam was still front and center in the story.

Did that include when Sam was unconscious?

But seriously, I think Sam became more of a supporting character in Gadreel's and to a lesser extent Dean's story. There was never really any wrap up to Sam's story, such as it was except for the part where Sam was turned into a hypocrite and shown as wrong... in which case I guess Sam was front and center for that?

Perhaps it might be more accurate to say that Sam's usual role - as partly a hero - was handed over to Gadreel, because that's what happened. Gadreel got to have a heroic story and help save the world. Sam had no part to play there at all, except to support Gadreel and Dean and then be unconscious.

So maybe I am wrong and Sam was front and center for the story arc the writers intended, but in that case, that story arc had to be one of the crappiest and most purposefully character assassinating arcs ever on this show. I'm not sure that's better, and maybe I'd rather they had ignored Sam in that case.

31 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

And it was Jensen who made Dean sympathetic, when it was clearly not the intention of the writers.

I disagree. If it wasn't supposed to be sympathetic to Dean, we wouldn't have been seeing things from Dean's perspective, ending shots on Dean's reaction, and the story would have concluded much differently, in my opinion.

An easy way to show the intention wasn't to make Dean sympathetic would have been for Sam to not call Crowley to try to bring Dean back (as Sam had claimed in "The Purge"). Dean was going to come back anyway as a demon, so the only point of having Sam call Crowley was to show Dean as right and Sam as a hypocrite / wrong. Not at all sympathetic to Sam, in my opinion, and entirely supporting Dean's decision to save Sam via Gadreel (because "look see, Sam would do the same thing, so what Dean did couldn't be bad.") This was again repeated when Dean killed Death to save Sam, and there were no awful ramifications for him doing so, only good ones.

AwesomO4000 · December 12, 2019

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

There was an entire episode that showed up the back story of how Ruby manipulated Sam and where were shown that drinking the demon blood gave Sam powers and that the more he drank, the stronger he become. But that is was also like a drug and very addictive.

As to whether it was Sam or the demon blood, IMO that is fairly obvious since Sam hasn't had powers since then. The only thing that was really murky was the feather line. I always felt like that applied to Sam's choices, because as I said, no blood no powers.

I agree with you that the blood is necessary for Sam's powers - or at least they appeared to be - but others have theorized that the blood was only a way for Sam to be addicted and have an excuse to use his powers, and that that is where the feather line came from.

And I guess that can be argued due to the fact that the other special kids like Ava and Jake didn't need demon blood, but then maybe that was because they got power somehow from Azazel? So in my opinion, there is still some murkiness there that could have been cleared up.

And there wasn't really a background episode that covered that aspect of the demon blood, because the background episode came before we found out about the demon blood. Also because of that, we were never shown why exactly Sam started drinking the demon blood to begin with. In my opinion, that a HUGE event horizon to just yada yada over. I mean oh yeah, by the way, Sam started drinking demon blood - stuffed into an episode with about 3 other huge revelations - kind of let me saying "wait, what? How did that happen? When did that happen? And why would he do that?" All of which would have been more interesting than most of the rehashed non-information we got in the "I Know What You Did Last Summer..." flashbacks.

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

So even if the reveal came late, the story line was not back burned and it was certainly a focal point.

I never said it wasn't a focal point. That was sort of my point. That just because the arc was a focal point didn't mean that we weren't missing some really crucial points of explanation involved with that arc. Exactly when and why Sam started drinking the demon blood being two of those very important points.

Contrast that with Castiel's season 6 storyline. That one remained a mystery until way late in the season, but then we got an episode that explained exactly how Castiel came to be where he was, in detail.

I have heard that at first that was all going to be skipped... which then would have made it more of another example of not giving the details of an important arc.

So I guess it can go either way on this show.

Bergamot · December 12, 2019

5 hours ago, passatoepresente said:

Can you tell me what really happened to Sam while he was in the cage and when this is said?

Sure I can! Sorry that you missed it. But this answer here sums things up pretty well:

Quote

We had multiple images of Sam burning and cut/bleeding in his hellucinations, we had Lucifer taunting him in episode after episode. We had Death and Castiel telling us how shredded and damaged his soul was, so much so that the memories of it would kill him.

If you need a few specific episodes, here are a couple:

"Caged Heat" in Season 6, where we had this exchange:
CASTIEL: Sam’s soul has been locked in the cage with Michael and Lucifer for more than a year. And they have nothing to do but take their frustrations out on him. You understand? If we try to force that mutilated thing down Sam’s gullet, we have no idea what will happen. It could be catastrophic.
DEAN: You mean he dies.
CASTIEL: I mean, he doesn’t. Paralysis. Insanity. Psychic pain so profound that he’s locked inside himself for the rest of his life.

"The Man Who Knew Too Much" in Season 6, where we actually get to see the personification of Tortured-in-Hell Sam.

"Meet the New Boss" in Season 7, where Sam hallucinates Hell more than once, with visions of chains hanging above him and meathooks dripping with bits of flesh.

There are more examples, but those are just the first few that came to my mind. (We never got a literal and detailed flashback to Sam's torture, but you know what? We didn't see any of that for Dean either.) Sam's time in Hell has been referenced many, many times. The show is still talking about it now -- for example, two episodes ago, with Elaine.

Spoiler

And with Michael and Adam emerging from the Cage in the next episode, I would not be at all surprised if we once again hear more about what happened to Sam in Hell, some more. Maybe we'll get that flashback!

If the Sam in Hell story did not work for someone, I'm afraid that the problem certainly cannot be due to the writers not devoting enough time and attention and effort to it, because they really have.

In contrast, after Sam went to Hell, Dean's time in Hell -- a crucial and essential part of his story, something that shaped him and still affects him to this day -- was never brought up except to minimize it in comparison. And since then, the show has tried very hard to erase even the memory of it. (Except of course to mention, completely without the context of the whole story, that Dean tortured souls while he was there.)

And yet -- to me it is still the most powerful of all the "I've been to Hell" stories that we have seen on Supernatural. Dean's trip to Hell was the first and the best written and the most compelling. Dean wasn't simply tortured for entertainment, but because Hell, chillingly, needed something from him, and was going to find a way to get it. He was "carved into a new creature" in a horrifying way by his twisted Hell-version of a father, Alistair, and the repercussions were enormous, both for the character and for the plot.

What happened to Dean in Hell and how he dealt with it afterwards are a story I will never forget, no matter how much the show might want me to. I think it is disingenuous at best to imply that the problem is resentment of the other brother having a storyline. That's not a problem I have -- it's a problem the show and its writers have, for some reason. Minimizing and then trying to erase Dean's story this way did not make Sam's version better or more interesting, and it never will. I simply do not understand why the show keeps doing this kind of thing over and over again.

Edited December 12, 2019 by Bergamot

Shannonsspirit · December 12, 2019

34 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

Sure I can! Sorry that you missed it. But this answer here sums things up pretty well:

If you need a few specific episodes, here are a couple:

"Caged Heat" in Season 6, where we had this exchange:
CASTIEL: Sam’s soul has been locked in the cage with Michael and Lucifer for more than a year. And they have nothing to do but take their frustrations out on him. You understand? If we try to force that mutilated thing down Sam’s gullet, we have no idea what will happen. It could be catastrophic.
DEAN: You mean he dies.
CASTIEL: I mean, he doesn’t. Paralysis. Insanity. Psychic pain so profound that he’s locked inside himself for the rest of his life.

"The Man Who Knew Too Much" in Season 6, where we actually get to see the personification of Tortured-in-Hell Sam.

"Meet the New Boss" in Season 7, where Sam hallucinates Hell more than once, with visions of chains hanging above him and meathooks dripping with bits of flesh.

There are more examples, but those are just the first few that came to my mind. (We never got a literal and detailed flashback to Sam's torture, but you know what? We didn't see any of that for Dean either.)  Sam's time in Hell has been referenced many, many times. The show is still talking about it now -- for example, two episodes ago, with Elaine.

Reveal spoiler

And with Michael and Adam emerging from the Cage in the next episode, I would not be at all surprised if we once again hear more about what happened to Sam in Hell, some more. Maybe we'll get that flashback!

If the Sam in Hell story did not work for someone, I'm afraid that the problem certainly cannot be due to the writers not devoting enough time and attention and effort to it, because they really have.

In contrast, after Sam went to Hell, Dean's time in Hell -- a crucial and essential part of his story, something that shaped him and still affects him to this day -- was never brought up except to minimize it in comparison. And since then, the show has tried very hard to erase even the memory of it. (Except of course to mention, completely without the context of the whole story, that Dean tortured souls while he was there.)

And yet -- to me it is still the most powerful of all the "I've been to Hell" stories that we have seen on Supernatural. Dean's trip to Hell was the first and the best written and the most compelling. Dean wasn't simply tortured for entertainment,  but because Hell, chillingly, needed something from him, and was going to find a way to get it. He was "carved into a new creature" in a horrifying way by his twisted Hell-version of a father, Alistair, and the repercussions were enormous, both for the character and for the plot.

What happened to Dean in Hell and how he dealt with it afterwards are a story I will never forget, no matter how much the show might want me to.  I think it is disingenuous at best to imply that the problem is resentment of the other brother having a storyline. That's not a problem I have -- it's a problem the show and its writers have, for some reason. Minimizing and then trying to erase Dean's story this way did not make Sam's version better or more interesting, and it never will. I simply do not understand why the show keeps doing this kind of thing over and over again.

I remember when Dean broke down and told his story. It was heartwrenching. One of the times I remember I cried for him. It was that he succumbed after 30 years. Then he was taunted by Alistair, as John after 100 years, did not.

I can't even conceive of the torment or even write more of what Dean said and went through. Maybe subsequent writers couldn't go there. Or maybe were hesitant to because Dean said he succumbed. Maybe that should never ever have happened, been written. How does a good man and a great man talk about when he tortured. We remember, but maybe they want us to forget. Dean is no less a good and great man because of it. The writers should trust the audience to understand he is no less for it. And Sam, 100+ years with Lucifer. So horrible. I wish those stories never happened.

I love both brothers. Their time in Hell should never ever be compared, only pitied and respected for their extraordinary sacrifices.

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