Mary Winchester: This Girl is on Fire

[ahrtee]

I know we've discussed why Mary didn't "prepare" for Azazel/protect herself and the house before (at great length) and I know I proposed this before and was pretty much ignored, but I'm going to put it forward again for the record:  

Michael wiped both Mary's and John's minds in The Song Remains the Same.  The angels *wanted* the apocalypse to happen, and would do whatever they could to make sure it did.  For that, they needed Mary oblivious and not warding the place or trying to break the deal, to make sure that Azazel could give Sam the demon blood.  It makes perfect sense to me that Michael would wipe the whole deal from Mary's mind, if not hunting altogether (at least, until the retcon of having her hunt while Dean was a baby) so that she could have the "normal" life she'd wanted until the shit hit the fan.  That would explain why, when she saw the lights fritzing, she'd tap them and shrug and not get immediately suspicious.  And I could accept that seeing Azazel again would suddenly bring the memory back (thus, the "it's you! recognition), because by then it was too late to change the events. Maybe it wasn't a true mind wipe but he just put the memories behind a wall which broke when she saw Azazel. :)  So I don't see that as anything about Mary being a horrible mother (or hunter) *at that point.*  

But that has nothing to do with how badly Mary has been written/behaving since she came back.  The current Mary bears no resemblance to any of the previous versions we'd seen in any of the flashbacks (including the fiercely protective ghost in Home, which she claimed she didn't even remember.)  So I can make my headcanon that either she was brought back "wrong" (maybe not even the real Mary, but someone concocted by Amara thinking that Dean would want someone Dean-the-adult could relate to (like a hunter) instead of Dean-the-four-year-old who just wanted his mommy) or that Mary had gotten so bored living her Memorex life in heaven with nothing but a loving husband and two perfect children that, once out, she decided to rebel against it and go back to a more interesting life.  

And then, of course, there's this:

3 hours ago, Pondlass1 said:

But the bottom line - for me - is haphazard thoughtless writing and an actress that displays a cold distant demeamour a little too well.

which I think is probably closer to the truth than anything else we can come up with.

Edited July 31, 2018 by ahrtee
clarification.

[companionenvy]

4 hours ago, Katy M said:

I don't have the hatred for Mary that some do, but I do have some problems that I think are retconning.

1. I wouldn't have had a problem with Mary doing a hunt or two after marriage, in the area.  But, Asa Fox, was quite explicit that she was in Canada.  Not exactly an hour or two away from Kansas.  And, she said that was unfinished business.  How exactly would she know that a werewolf she had previously hunted had ended up in a specific part of Canada, found someone to watch Dean, and come back, all without John knowing?

2. We know that John and Mary were struggling financially towards the beginning of their marriage. We saw that in The Song Remains the Same.  In light of that, it doesn't make much sense that she didn't learn how to cook.  Add to that, that we saw Deanna, who was an open hunter, cooking.  She didn't teach her daughter at least some rudimentary skills? Why not just make it that Mary doesn't really like to cook, instead of making it so that Dean was eating Piggly Wiggly meatloaf when he was a kid?

3.  She's the greatest hunter that ever lived.  Besides her post-marriage hunting, which I still have to believe wasn't super lots, she quit hunting at 19 or so.  She should have been, at most, the level of SAm season 1.  Competent, for sure, but not the best hunter that ever hunted.

What I don't have a problem with is Mary's, for lack of a better word, confusion about her relationship with her sons.  In her mind, they're babies, and then the next minute they are grown men. That seriously is a lot to take.  IRL, if she had been in a coma for 30 years, all three of them would have been in some pretty intense counselling to reconcile that.

I agree with all of this. A woman can be a competent homemaker and also a badass, and turning her into a super-hunter was illogical character propping at its worst. Season 1 Sam is probably about right in terms of where her skill level should be. But at this point, her sons have gone toe to toe with angels, demons, and beings of god-like power. If John were resurrected, I don't think his abilities as a hunter should be the equal of theirs at this point, let alone Mary.

Your number 2 is also a good point. It isn't just that John and Mary were struggling. It is that it is actually hard to imagine what Mary was actually doing for all those years. Dean was almost five when Mary died, which was ten years after she made the demon deal and married John. That means John and Mary were married for five years before Dean was born. It was the 70's, not 1950, and even in 1950, the domestic ideal with the wife as the perfect homemaker wasn't a luxury a couple like the Winchesters could have afforded. Forget learning to cook, why didn't Mary have a job? And certainly, if she didn't, you'd think she would have had enough time on her hands to learn how to cook a real meatloaf. 

I'd had the question of what Mary was doing for all those years even before her return, but at the time, it was very much a nitpick. Once the show brought Mary back, it became an actual issue that we might have expected to be addressed as we got a fuller picture of the character. 

I also agree on being sympathetic to Mary's issues with relating to Sam and Dean. My issue is more the show's treatment of that, in this past season - which is to say, their decision to basically ignore it. I didn't think Mary's arc in S12 was great, but the show was clearly trying to address the difficulty of the dynamic in a real way. The problem with the arc, IMO, was the show's usual problem of being too afraid to change the dynamic, which led to Mary remaining totally MIA longer than would have made sense if we assume (as I think we are supposed to) that she's basically a loving person who really does want to establish a relationship with her boys, despite her fears. Her leaving initially works for me, as does her disappearing into team-MOL for a while, but there were at least two points during the season - after Asa Fox, and after Dean had himself agreed to work with the MOL -- which should have been immediately followed by evidence that she was spending at least some family time with Sam and Dean. Instead, she seems to have kept them at more than arms length, and even given the difficulty of the dynamic, I don't think that's particularly sympathetic. But if you're willing to overlook that a bit, the premise of the arc - Mary has trouble reconnecting with her sons, but eventually affirms her love for them -- more or less worked for me. Even her decision to join the BMOL makes a lot of sense psychologically: she finds it hard to do the day to day, intense emotional work of reconnecting with her sons, so she signs onto a mission that allows her to believe she's helping and protecting them while allowing her to otherwise avoid the messier interpersonal realities. Which is, to me, within the realm of sympathetic and understandable flaws.

S13 is more of a problem because the show plainly doesn't want to deal with the messy emotional realities, hence separating Mary and her sons for practically the entire season and leaving her in a plotline in which she basically acted as "generic badass female number 1" while making strong emotional ties with people who weren't Sam and Dean. And it isn't even that I blame Mary for doing it (although she did have some nerve getting preachy with Dean at the end of the season). Its just that that's not what I wanted to see out of a resurrected Mary Winchester on SPN, or what I think a better written show would have done. Reducing the plot to a token "we need to save Mom" and  "I need to get back to my boys (until I don't)" is about the most boring place they could have taken it.

[catrox14]

I've mentioned before that I have many problems with Mary's resurrection with the first being that it IMO, it fundamentally wipes out John's entire motive for hunting YED and rolling that into becoming a full on hunter and raising his children to be hunters and turning him into the asshole I found him to be in early seasons. 

As most know here, I am no fan of John. I believe, and it's just my opinion that he emotionally and mentally abused the boys and, IMO, physically abused Dean at least once. He was not that man before Mary was murdered by the YED.  He had no clue about anything related to monsters, demons etc and he obviously went off the rails to get vengeance.  It changed him.  He believed is loving wife who he loved with all his heart was essentially an innocent woman who was killed for no good reason until he learned she was killed by a demon who wanted to get control of Sam. 

Even if I didn't think her resurrection upends and nullifies the premise of the show, I find it 100% unbelievable that John never learned about Mary's deal in all his time chasing the YED, nor when he made his own deal with him. Azazel had no reason to not tell him that she made a deal with him because that would have turned the knife in John even more. That would have probably been the thing that would have gotten John to break in Hell, assuming Alastair wasn't lying.  Or at minimum, would have pleased YED greatly to unleash on John after he made the deal because that's what demons do.  They destroy all your hope, your joy, whatever they can to ruin a person's mind and heart.   Especially then. Random pain and suffering for their own amusement.  So right there, it's a terrible retcon.

And because it's a terrible retcon that wasn't thought through, apparently, with ALL the implications, IMO, that's why Dabb, Singer et al have chosen to ignore anything related to the past, and make Mary into this IMO terribly written character.  They've divided the audience by making her controversial/"complex" (I put that in quotes because IMO she's not complex) and IMO they did that because then they can just ignore the past because the present Mary is such a Mary Sue they don't have to address all the reasons why this version of Mary has undermined the show and the character. 

You know how they could fix this whole thing?  Make it so that that Amara resurrected an AU!Mary since OG!Mary was supposedly burned up completely when she killed the poltergeist.  It would explain why she can't connect with Sam and Dean because she never had kids in the other world.  Maybe it's an AU Mary's fantasy heaven where she wanted to believe she had kids named Sam and Dean.  Honestly, it would explain EVERYTHING for me about why this Mary is such a disaster. 

And talk about a blow to the boys.  Them thinking they had their OG Mom back and OOPS nope. That would be some drama I wouldn't mind watching at all.  

Edited July 31, 2018 by catrox14

[AwesomO4000]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

I find it 100% unbelievable that John never learned about Mary's deal in all his time chasing the YED, nor when he made his own deal with him. Azazel had no reason to not tell him that she made a deal with him because that would have turned the knife in John even more. That would have probably been the thing that would have gotten John to break in Hell, assuming Alastair wasn't lying.  Or at minimum, would have pleased YED greatly to unleash on John after he made the deal because that's what demons do.  They destroy all your hope, your joy, whatever they can to ruin a person's mind and heart.   Especially then. Random pain and suffering for their own amusement.  So right there, it's a terrible retcon.

But this part wasn't Dabb's doing. This part happened during Kripke's run. Mary going back to hunting and John not finding out happened during Dabb, but there was that in canon sort of rift between them for a while (that we saw in "Dark Side of the Moon") that could be said to explain why John maybe wasn't aware of everything Mary did.

4 hours ago, companionenvy said:

Your number 2 is also a good point. It isn't just that John and Mary were struggling. It is that it is actually hard to imagine what Mary was actually doing for all those years. Dean was almost five when Mary died, which was ten years after she made the demon deal and married John. That means John and Mary were married for five years before Dean was born. It was the 70's, not 1950, and even in 1950, the domestic ideal with the wife as the perfect homemaker wasn't a luxury a couple like the Winchesters could have afforded. Forget learning to cook, why didn't Mary have a job? And certainly, if she didn't, you'd think she would have had enough time on her hands to learn how to cook a real meatloaf. 

I'd had the question of what Mary was doing for all those years even before her return, but at the time, it was very much a nitpick. Once the show brought Mary back, it became an actual issue that we might have expected to be addressed as we got a fuller picture of the character. 

This is an interesting point. I'm beginning to wonder if Mary maybe had some kind of semi-debilitating depression or something that just made regular life seem too difficult for her - which maybe tied into why she didn't seem to deal with reality very well. And maybe that was exacerbated by the rift with John since John had enough to deal with providing for the family and maybe didn't have to time to figure out that Mary was struggling or what it was that she may have needed.

Edited July 31, 2018 by AwesomO4000
confusing use of a negative when it should have been a positive.

[catrox14]

15 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

But this part wasn't Dabb's doing. This part happened during Kripke's run. Mary going back to hunting and John not finding out happened during Dabb, but there was that in canon sort of rift between them for a while (that we saw in "Dark Side of the Moon") that could be said to explain why John maybe wasn't aware of everything Mary did.

True point. I was conflating my beef with the first retcon of In the Beginning with Mary hunting after Dean was born.  Thanks for that correction.

That first not thought out retcon is compounded and further  unbelievable that John never heard about the great Mary Campbell, hunter extraordinaire in the Asa Fox episode after John became the best hunter in the world.  She was known to many it seems and at some point John would have put two and two together IMO.  YMMV 

Steve Yockey wrote that episode so I can give a little pass for him because he was new but Dabb oversees all of the writing staff and someone should have pointed out to him that never did John find out Mary was hunting so again to me that alters the story too much and undermines the importance of her death to John's life.  And yes, sometimes it is a okay if a character is killed for the basis of a vengeance story which is what John's story was. 

None of this would be an issue if they had just left Mary dead, really most sincerely never able to be brought back, dead.

[FlickChick]

Since John was so very secretive with Sam and Dean, we actually have no idea what he knew or didn't know about Mary, Mary's deal with the YED, or even what YED's plans were for Sam. While he was in the hospital, he even lied to Sam about knowing anything. So who knows what he found out while he was hunting. How John ever thought that having his hunting sons not have important information was a good idea, I'll never know. 

[catrox14]

18 minutes ago, FlickChick said:

Since John was so very secretive with Sam and Dean, we actually have no idea what he knew or didn't know about Mary, Mary's deal with the YED, or even what YED's plans were for Sam. While he was in the hospital, he even lied to Sam about knowing anything. So who knows what he found out while he was hunting. How John ever thought that having his hunting sons not have important information was a good idea, I'll never know. 

It depends on the information.  And in this case, just for John's purposes alone, I can't think of one good reason had he known she was a hunter or made a deal, to not have used that in his quest to find the YED. Like research who she knew and when.  Even John and Dean, who were both pretty secretive and to themselves, were known to the hunting community.  He could have left one note on sheet of paper in one of storage units.  He made a note about Tara and only labeled it with a T. 

And IMO, if it's a female hunter that was so good as Dabb has implied, that would have doubly landed on radars back in the 70s and early 80's when it was still noteworthy for a woman to be especially good in a field not many women were involved in. 

[Katy M]

10 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

It depends on the information.  And in this case, just for John's purposes alone, I can't think of one good reason had he known she was a hunter or made a deal, to not have used that in his quest to find the YED. Like research who she knew and when.  Even John and Dean, who were both pretty secretive and to themselves, were known to the hunting community.  He could have left one note on sheet of paper in one of storage units.  He made a note about Tara and only labeled it with a T. 

He also tore out the page where he conceived Adam.  If he didn't want Sam and Dean to know about Mary's deal, he would have covered the tracks. And, I can see why he wouldn't want them to know.  If he knew, I am in no way, shape, or form, saying that he did.  I kind of feel like he didn't. But, if he did, he wouldn't want that on Sam's head.  Feeling like his existence was the reason for his mother's death.  It was bad enough that it happened in his nursery.

[catrox14]

5 minutes ago, Katy M said:

He also tore out the page where he conceived Adam.  If he didn't want Sam and Dean to know about Mary's deal, he would have covered the tracks. And, I can see why he wouldn't want them to know.  If he knew, I am in no way, shape, or form, saying that he did.  I kind of feel like he didn't. But, if he did, he wouldn't want that on Sam's head.  Feeling like his existence was the reason for his mother's death.  It was bad enough that it happened in his nursery.

I understand what you are saying. You're saying that he would have done it to protect the boys.   I'm not disagreeing that he could have done that. I'm saying if the show intended for us to think John knew about Mary's hunting even if the boys didn't, the show could have still shown us that he knew by showing us where he had hidden that knowledge.

[companionenvy]

This isn't a retcon, and as I didn't like the original SL, I don't want it revisted, but I can't help sometimes thinking how bizarre it is that Mary presumably has no idea that her father was resurrected and sold her sons to a demon in a bid to resurrect her before being killed by Sam. That would have to up the therapy bills even more. 

I agree that it seems clear that Mary didn't forget the original deal, just the encounters with Dean and Sam, and thus Dean's warning not to get out of bed. 

[DeeDee79]

12 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

I don't want it revisted, but I can't help sometimes thinking how bizarre it is that Mary presumably has no idea that her father was resurrected and sold her sons to a demon in a bid to resurrect her before being killed by Sam. That would have to up the therapy bills even more. 

I also don't want it to be revisited but I wouldn't mind seeing a scene where Mary finds out that Samuel was resurrected and her take on her Campbell cousins. Though given their ages I guess they wouldn't have been around when Mary was alive.

[catrox14]

For me, given that Mary has shown IMO her true colors with Dean and Sam, I have no trouble believing she took no action to protect them from potential evils.  She was in denial that the BMOL was bad news until they brainwashed her, literally.  She's been in denial of how much her distance has harmed Dean.  She clearly was lying to John about hunting based on what is known canonically without headcanons. 

[gonzosgirrl]

I know these are the actors, not the characters (duh) but this is, IMO, a large part of the reason that Mary comes across as completely unlikeable (for me). It epitomizes how Sam Smith approaches her character.

Our exchange:

 

[ahrtee]

They're both in town here today, about 20 minutes from my house, if I want to spend money on a ticket just to spend money to get an autograph and/or photo.  Julie Benz (Layla) is here too, but no SPN panels or discussions.  Maybe if I get bored enough this afternoon. 

[catrox14]

35 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I know these are the actors, not the characters (duh) but this is, IMO, a large part of the reason that Mary comes across as completely unlikeable (for me). It epitomizes how Sam Smith approaches her character.

Our exchange:

 

I bet she never even knew Dean was killed by Metatron.  She doesn't seem to know anything about the show in general IMO based on her prior con comments.

[gonzosgirrl]

3 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I bet she never even knew Dean was killed by Metatron.  She doesn't seem to know anything about the show in general IMO based on her prior con comments.

I'd give her the benefit of that doubt (dubious as 'benefit' can be when you don't know your own show or character), but her initial tweet belies that. They 'sorted it all out' is the reason I responded at all - she's 'joking' about the characters. And when I was gobsmacked by her (IMO) complete lack of awareness and insight with her comments at TorCon last fall, I was informed that she is a huge fan of the show and has watched it all. So yeah, no. LOL.

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, ster1 said:

@gonzosgirrl, what did she say at TorCon? 

Brought over from Tweet thread. 

It's her comments about Dean and her general (IMO) lack of insight into the show that grated on me. Decide for yourself though....

[Casseiopeia]

32 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Brought over from Tweet thread. 

It's her comments about Dean and her general (IMO) lack of insight into the show that grated on me. Decide for yourself though....

Did she really think that was going to make her character sound better?  Wow!  as I watch more...

Nice quality btw..

[Lemuria]

Could you please thumbnail what she said? Because I can’t bring myself to listen to her anymore. Thanks. 

[ster1]

Thanks for the video, @gonzosgirrl . I'm with you - if that's how she sees Mary, no wonder I'm having so much trouble liking the character.

55 minutes ago, Lemuria said:

Could you please thumbnail what she said? Because I can’t bring myself to listen to her anymore. Thanks. 

Some of it wasn't too bad- Mary struggling after being dead for 30 years and now being younger than her sons; not being too upset that John had Adam after her death and thinking Adam shouldn't be in Hell (as long as her sons don't have to go there to rescue him); Mary joined the BMoL because she doing what she thought was best; the challenge of making Mary a multidimensional character for the first time; that Mary wouldn't have made the deal if she'd known it involved Sam.

A lot of her answers about the show seemed a bit simplistic, though. About the fight with Dean,  Samantha thought Mary was angry because she was doing her best to help them and instead, Dean wanted a perfect domestic mom like what he remembered from his childhood (she said most moms would "imitated punching in the face" if their kids said to "just be a mom.")  And then she was asked if Mary was angry at John now that she learned how harshly he'd raised the boys and how the BMoL compared it to child abuse. Sam said she'd forgive John because he didn't know about Mary's original wishes not to raise her sons to be hunters and that Mary would be kind of flattered John spent his life obsessively trying to avenge her death. It seemed like she missed the point of the question and made light of their traumatic childhood.

That's the gist of what I remember - did I leave anything out? 

Edited September 29, 2018 by ster1

[bethy]

When would Mary have learned about Adam? I honestly can’t remember how/if he’s come up.

[devlin]

53 minutes ago, ster1 said:

 

A lot of her answers about the show seemed a bit simplistic, though. About the fight with Dean,  Samantha thought Mary was angry because she was doing her best to help them and instead, Dean wanted a perfect domestic mom like what he remembered from his childhood (she said most moms would "imitated punching in the face" if their kids said to "just be a mom.")  

Why does she get the idea that dean wanted a domestic mum to do all the cooking and cleaning. He is perfectly capable and willing to do it himself. What I took from dean’s comment was that he just wanted her round and to spend time with. There is a hell of a lot more to being a mum than cleaning up after your child.

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, bethy said:

When would Mary have learned about Adam? I honestly can’t remember how/if he’s come up.

I think it was a hypothetical question.

[Myrelle]

11 hours ago, ster1 said:

A lot of her answers about the show seemed a bit simplistic

That's what I came away with from most of what she said in that video, too. 

I wonder if that was some of the writers' coaching, too. 

I can't believe how much I once loved this character and now I just want them to kill her off so badly. I re-watched the penultimate episode on Thursday and I think I even said it out loud to the TV at one point.

Ice Queen is so apropos for the character at this point.

[catrox14]

I just don't understand why the writers wanted to make Mary into this kind of character. It's more of IMO wrong headed attempts to make "badass" "strong female characters. And it's just the barest version of "badass". So what if she punches Lucifer in the face? Look where it got her? That is ONE action that has no real value.

She's kind of  a plot device more than anything yet her role in the story had more depth before the resurrected her. She has more actions now but not more depth.

And it's not helped that I think Sam Smith brings no nuance to Mary unlike Amy Gumenick who made her feel real. That Mary had kindness and worry and empathy for Dean before she knew he was her son, and she showed it  after she met them in Song Remains the Same.

And yes I can see how being burned alive and then yanked out of heaven and esurrected might screw one up, the show itself hasn't couched Mary's change in that fact. It's never discussed that she is so different in personality than Young Mary.

There is no warmth to this version of Mary and there is no on screen discussions as to those differences where Mary, Dean and Sam are allowed to discuss in depth how she's changed. IMO, she has a history yet no depth of character and IMO that's an acting problem as much as writing failures.

[ster1]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

unlike Amy Gumenick who made her feel real. That Mary had kindness and worry and empathy for Dean before she knew he was her son, and she showed it  after she met them in Song Remains the Same.

I wonder if Sam's even watched Amy's take on young Mary?  

To me, this version of Mary is an OC. She's so different from the original Mary without a good explanation.  Yes, she went through some traumatic events but so have the brothers. And they didn't come back from hell/death/Purgatory with personality transplants.  

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, ster1 said:

Yes, she went through some traumatic events but so have the brothers. And they didn't come back from hell/death/Purgatory with personality transplants.  

The boys have changed but I general I think the changes were organic to their personalities, and were more evolution than "revolution" or "devolution" mostly. IMO when they have been  written OOC, it's for plot purposes which unfortunately becomes canon characterizations until the show explains that XYZ made them that way or why they changed. 

Mary's change hasn't been explained at all. She's an unlikeable asshole and unless they have her apologize in a real and meaningful way to Dean, mostly, and Sam for her disregard for them, she'll remain on my bad side. LOL

[catrox14]

10 minutes ago, ster1 said:

To me, this version of Mary is an OC. She's so different from the original Mary without a good explanation.  Yes, she went through some traumatic events but so have the brothers. And they didn't come back from hell/death/Purgatory with personality transplants.  

I would 100% accept that Amara created a new Mary whole cloth thinking she knew what Dean needed based on her largely wrong assumptions about Dean in s11. She was attached to him but she didn't know him and didn't understand him, really.  My headcanon is that Amara got only Dean's need for a mother without comprehending who Mary actually was. 

 Mary being an Amara construct makes a lot more sense to me, than this being a resurrected Mary.  But that's my headcanon....and not show canon.

[Myrelle]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

IMO, she has a history yet no depth of character and IMO that's an acting problem as much as writing failures.

It's definitely as much an acting fail as it is a writer fail for me. Her line delivery is atrocious. She sounded like such a huge and annoying as hell know-it-all when she told Dean that Jack would have to decide for himself about his father-I guess maybe forgetting that he's still Satan AKA The Devil and all that. *I* wanted to punch HER right in the face for the way and manner that she said it to Dean, although I couldn't help but appreciate Dean's/Jensen's reaction to what she said. He looked totally and completely unconvinced. 

There was even one tiny bit where she was just handing out beer to AU people, that I again felt the urge to just punch her right in the face, too-so ITA that it's not just and only the writing. And it just now occurred to me that before they resurrected her, Mary as played by Samantha Smith had very few lines and I'm sure that's why she was fine in small doses. And I also agree that her Mary suffers greatly in comparison to Amy Gumenick's and now I'm also wondering if she ever studied Amy's Mary or watched her play the role at all. 

My guess is it wouldn't really matter either way because, tbh, I feel like she just wanted to play the role as badass female and nothing else-and definitely not as loving mother, in any way, shape, or form, to Dean and Sam-but especially not to Dean.

Edited September 29, 2018 by Myrelle

[FlickChick]

Great post @Myrelle. I was re-watching "Mommy Dearest" the other day, and really disliked Sam's portrayal of Mary when she morphed from Eve. At the first viewing, I figured she acted that way because she was really Eve, not Mary. Upon re-watch, I decided it is her coldness in delivery that's the problem and that it still exists today in the so-called "real" Mary. Based on what I've seen of her in the last two seasons, I think the boys were better off with John.

[sarthaz]

I love her, but Sam's just not a very deep actress. She's great if you need her to stand in a glow and smile and cut the crust off of sandwiches, but Amy brought far more depth to the character.

[Res]

2 hours ago, FlickChick said:

Great post @Myrelle. I was re-watching "Mommy Dearest" the other day, and really disliked Sam's portrayal of Mary when she morphed from Eve. At the first viewing, I figured she acted that way because she was really Eve, not Mary. Upon re-watch, I decided it is her coldness in delivery that's the problem and that it still exists today in the so-called "real" Mary. Based on what I've seen of her in the last two seasons, I think the boys were better off with John.

I completely agree. In addition, Zach's Heaven Mary is looking a lot like the real one as well now. How sad is that. 

[gonzosgirrl]

12 hours ago, Res said:

I completely agree. In addition, Zach's Heaven Mary is looking a lot like the real one as well now. How sad is that. 

She did jump her son's tormentor's bones pretty quickly. And yeah, yeah, it wasn't Ketch who tortured Sam - but he sure as hell would have, and worse. And she knew it. I seriously can't wrap my head around the writers/Dabb thinking this somehow made Mary badass. Unless that means both bad, and an ass. More than that, I can't understand how it actually worked for at least a segment of the viewership.

[Pondlass1]

The resurrection of Mary has gone over like a lead balloon.  Mary is a true character fail, both in terms of writing and actress. Hope she goes on fire again soon...

[ukgirl71]

All the talk of Ep 300 had me thinking - was it ever discussed/publicised/made known who else auditioned for the role of Mary?  And, just for fun (if that’s the right word) who, apart from the excellent Amy Gumenick, would you have liked to see playing the role now?

[gonzosgirrl]

All you need to know about Sam Smith's attitude. 

[Aeryn13]

She is totally up Mary's ass, no matter what a self-involved bitch Mary is. And that comes through in the acting.

The one time I liked Lady Deadeyes was when she was calling out Mary in her shit. Should happen more often.

[ILoveReading]

Even Bobby needed space from needing space with the Ice Queen

Edited January 25, 2019 by ILoveReading

[catrox14]

I seriously yelled at the TV when Mary said"After the thing with Bobby's son, WE needed time".   Say what?  WE as if Not!Bobby's issues meant more to her than her own sons???  Maybe the thread title can be changed to "Mary Winchester:  Let's Burn Her Again"

[Aeryn13]

Mary had exactly one part of a good line in tonight`s episode, when she started to acknowledged that she had missed so much and that...  Unfortunately, Dean stopped her there but it is pretty much the root problem for the character. While it is not her fault, she missed their childhoods in the first place, since she came back, she never once made a single attempt to remedy that. She read the journal but never acknowledged what she read in it beyond the hunts. She never asked, she never initiated that very necessary conversation.

And now it`s too late. Her main motivation is always whatever SHE wants in any given situation. As I suspected, she didn`t say anything complimentary to Dean in this episode either. At least Sam got her "you are a natural leader" stuff. That is more than Dean got in 3 years now. So, again, too late. The episode made it clear she knew what was going on and never contacted Dean or asked about him until he called. She is the ultimate leech in a relationship. 

Mary is a dead weight on this show now. She was a better and likeable character when she was dead.

[Myrelle]

25 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Mary had exactly one part of a good line in tonight`s episode, when she started to acknowledged that she had missed so much and that...  Unfortunately, Dean stopped her there but it is pretty much the root problem for the character. While it is not her fault, she missed their childhoods in the first place, since she came back, she never once made a single attempt to remedy that. She read the journal but never acknowledged what she read in it beyond the hunts. She never asked, she never initiated that very necessary conversation.

And now it`s too late. Her main motivation is always whatever SHE wants in any given situation. As I suspected, she didn`t say anything complimentary to Dean in this episode either. At least Sam got her "you are a natural leader" stuff. That is more than Dean got in 3 years now. So, again, too late. The episode made it clear she knew what was going on and never contacted Dean or asked about him until he called. She is the ultimate leech in a relationship. 

Mary is a dead weight on this show now. She was a better and likeable character when she was dead.

ITA.

The character, as written, dragged this week's episode down immensely for me and Samantha Smith's lack in the acting dept.(Ice Queen doesn't begin to describe it) did nothing but make matters worse, IMO.

I mean even giving her and Jensen one on one scenes doesn't help, and really all that's missing is for her to show some genuine appreciation and warmth towards her eldest child, but yup, nada again-and again from neither the writing or the acting of the character.

Every time she shows up now, I keep hoping that they'll just end her again. I know that it will hurt her sons, but they'll get over it and selfishly speaking, she'll no longer be sucking up precious air time and the show will be that much closer to once again being an overall worthwhile viewing experience for this fan rather than something that will be FFed through half the time-and only half the time, if we're lucky, tbh. 

[SueB]

5 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

All you need to know about Sam Smith's attitude. 

Seems reasonable to me.  That’s what actors do.  They love and support their character. Just like Jared is Team Sam and Jensen says he’s the biggest Dean fan there is.  

Mary at the cabin with AU Bobby is IMO the BEST solution for where she should be.  Half a day from the boys, near Donna (good mutual backup) and with AU Bobby (capable hunter, even from the AU).  And aside from the obvious offscreen rationale, Bobby is dealing with a lot.  I think him going off solo for a few days is a reasonable thing.  Maybe he went to Sioux Falls to kick around his burnt out shell of a home and wanted to be alone.  Further, it would be awkward for Mary to love in the bunker with her adult children.  How many people (parents OR children) want to still live together in their 40’s?

Personally I think the was the perfect Mary episode.  This was not the kind of episode to bring up Dean’s birthday —too dark.  So a nice character shout-out by having Mary’s locker combo be Dean’s birthday was perfect. Sure it probably sourced from the prop department.  That’s where a lot of Easter eggs come from.  

Min this episode Mary was caring, respectful of Dean’s privacy, competent, and ‘real’.  

[gonzosgirrl]

17 minutes ago, SueB said:

Min this episode Mary was caring, respectful of Dean’s privacy, competent, and ‘real’.  

And I found her insincere, self-centered and fake. Potato/potato.

 

18 minutes ago, SueB said:

Seems reasonable to me.  That’s what actors do.  They love and support their character.

Sure they do - but her tweet is in direct response to criticism about a specific thing, and her answer is flip and dismissive.

[Aeryn13]

That locker combo was blink-and-you-miss-it. Even an Easter Egg should be something that people have a chance to notice. 

Now personally, I wasn`t bothered by no birthday mentions but neither after the first Michael possession nor this time they have shown a single scene nor said or implied in dialogue that Mary on her own reached out to Dean or approached him. They showed even Jack trying to hug Dean once he returned. Mary was absent from this ep with not even a mention. The next episode we saw them together, she at least took five seconds to prop up Sam before she went back to "me me me" but nothing with Dean. She makes zero effort with Dean. It always comes from him. That is ridiculous, no matter their age. 

That`s also ultimately why scenes like in this episode fall completely flat for many. So Dean comes to her and they are supposed to bond. But her acting isn`t really all that involved and Jensen can`t really bounce off of someone in their scenes. 

As for actors and their characters, Jensen is very self-deprecating and often talks about Dean`s flaws, more than I actually like. Jared not so much but even he occassionally talks about Sam making mistakes. To Sam Smith Mary always seems to be right and justified and it`s always someone elses fault. When she was in conflict with Dean in Season 12, it was completely Dean`s fault etc. 

At this point I`d love it if Mary gets dragged for an entire episode and Sam Smith was forced to acknowledge that it was richly deserved because the writers gave her no "oh, it`s all the others` fault" excuses.  

Quote

Sure they do - but her tweet is in direct response to criticism about a specific thing, and her answer is flip and dismissive.

Honestly, I find it as smug as Mary looks when it is completely unwarranted. That is why I have such problems with her acting. She can`t get beyond herself. And the director obviously doesn`t reel her in. Not a good combo in a show like SPN. If you play the characters  straightforward as written in the scripts, 8 out of 10 times the character looks douchey. Because the writing is so often tone-deaf.  

Edited January 25, 2019 by Aeryn13

[trudysmom]

Re-watching Damaged Goods I kept thinking that ever since Mary came back, it's "save Mom!" again and again.  To the point of going into another universe for her, and look what that got them.  I 100 percent with Aeryn's assessment.  Sam Smith is just flat, so Mary comes off as just as flat.  Even her little moment with Dean at dinner, when she said she forgets how much of their lives she missed, it was clear it was about HER, what SHE missed.  Oh poor pitiful me, my boys grew up without a mother and my husband became a crazed hunter but look what I missed! 

[gonzosgirrl]

20 minutes ago, trudysmom said:

Re-watching Damaged Goods I kept thinking that ever since Mary came back, it's "save Mom!" again and again.  To the point of going into another universe for her, and look what that got them.  I 100 percent with Aeryn's assessment.  Sam Smith is just flat, so Mary comes off as just as flat.  Even her little moment with Dean at dinner, when she said she forgets how much of their lives she missed, it was clear it was about HER, what SHE missed.  Oh poor pitiful me, my boys grew up without a mother and my husband became a crazed hunter but look what I missed! 

Exactly. She's been nothing but self-centered since the moment she came back. 

[PAForrest]

18 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

That locker combo was blink-and-you-miss-it. Even an Easter Egg should be something that people have a chance to notice.

I purposely went back to look for this moment, and seriously?, I honestly couldn't see anything. It was so fast and not exactly tightly focused on the lock. It was a nothing second of screen time. You'd literally have to be one of those people who sit there and watch the episodes stop-action second by second the entire time to try and catch that. So if that was supposed to be obvious to the viewing audience, it was a HUGE direction fail, and Sam Smith shouldn't be so damn smug about it.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

I purposely went back to look for this moment, and seriously?, I honestly couldn't see anything. It was so fast and not exactly tightly focused on the lock. It was a nothing second of screen time. You'd literally have to be one of those people who sit there and watch the episodes stop-action second by second the entire time to try and catch that. So if that was supposed to be obvious to the viewing audience, it was a HUGE direction fail, and Sam Smith shouldn't be so damn smug about it.

And even if you do that, you`ll notice the locker combo stands at 1-24-67

Which ain`t exactly Dean`s year of birth, now, is it?

[gonzosgirrl]

27 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

And even if you do that, you`ll notice the locker combo stands at 1-24-67

Which ain`t exactly Dean`s year of birth, now, is it?

Ha! I hope somebody pointed that out to her. A response that smug deserves the clapback this offers up. 

[Katy M]

Wow, the hatred for an actress that is just embracing her role as written is unbelievable.