Endgame Discussion and Speculation

[ShellsandCheese]

On 9/10/2017 at 6:02 PM, glowbug said:

Originally Cersei was supposed to have a miscarriage at the end of season 7 so that definitely wasn't the reason they had her get pregnant. I think it's far more likely that the miscarriage got pushed to season 8 than Jaime (or whoever kills Cersei) kills both her and her unborn child. 

Or she's not pregnant. I'm still thinking that it's a Mary Tudor situation. I am not so sure that Cersei will die honestly. We all like to think that the good guys always win and that the bad guys are always punished, but that isn't necessarily the case. I do think the good guys will win, but I'd imagine that a whole host of bad guys will go unpunished in the traditional sense. Maybe Cersei's punishment will be finding out she isn't pregnant but rather dying and she has no one left: no mother, no father, no Jamie, her children dead, and it's likely Jamie / Tyrion won't have kids, so maybe she'll die knowing that it's the end for her family and that she caused it. 

[SimoneS]

The early version of the script had Cersei having a miscarriage so she is definitely pregnant. Qyburn may be repulsive and macabre, but he is a talented Maester, there is no way that he would wrongly identify a pregnancy. I expect that Cersei will have a miscarriage next season giving her nothing to live for when Dany and Jon arriving to take King's Landing. I have always believed that she will use the wildfire to set the Red Keep on fire or attempt to do so. She has already used it to kill hundreds if not thousands of innocent people. Maybe Daenerys will walk into the fire and use her power to extinguish it before it destroys the whole of King's Landing. If the Iron Throne is hot from the fire, she will the only one who will be able to sit on for a long time.

If Cersei is killed by a younger brother, then the only realistic possibility is Jaime. The show had to contrive a situation for Shae to be physically low enough for Tyrion to strangle her, that is unlikely to happen again. I can see a scenario where Jaime goes into the King's Landing to try to get Cersei to surrender. She confesses that she had a miscarriage and when he realizes that she cannot be reasoned with and that she is willing to futilely sacrifice thousands of people, he strangles her in a moment of anger. Gregor might then kill him or maybe the Hound is with Jaime and fights his brother to distract him so the fans get the Cleganebowl that they have been going on about.

Edited September 13, 2017 by SimoneS

[BlackberryJam]

21 hours ago, WindyNights said:

Just like how R + L = J isn't surprising, right? : p 

It being surprising is more for Cersei. She thinks it's Tyrion that will kill her therefore it will be Jaime who she thinks will never betray her.

Jaime is her ideal self. It's meant to elicit horror from Cersei when her ideal self kills her. You couldn't get that from anyone else. 

No one cares if Cersei is surprised or not. That just...doesn't make sense from a storytelling perspective. 

20 hours ago, spaceghostess said:

Just spitballin', but is Sandor Clegane not the "little" brother of Gregor? Maybe The Hound wraps his hands around Cersei's throat pre-(or post-) CleganeBowl. Maybe he's the valonqar.

Sandor is Gregor's little brother and there is a good chance that Gregor is a little brother as well. In the books, there is a reference to a Clegane sister. I believe she died and the how of it is never discussed. So it's definitely possible that either Clegane could 'little brother.' If that's the situation, it makes sense for the show to have left out the valonqar part of the prophecy because it would require too much otherwise needless Clegane backstory.

18 hours ago, herbz said:

I'm slowly coming round to this, having previously believed like the whole fandom that it'll be Jaime who finishes Cersei. Reading Jaime in AFFC and ADWD makes less sense if you come at it from the perspective that he's the valonqar. He works through his (considerable and understandable) anger in his therapy sessions with Ilyn Payne, and then he's done. He doesn't lash out at Lancel when he meets him. He has no desire to even see Cersei, let alone kill her, at the last point we see him. He literally runs away with Brienne rather than head back to King's Landing. I believed it would be an Aerys 2.0 situation when he killed her, but the show has already had Cersei blow up the sept and almost have Jaime murdered and he didn't do it then, so I'm presuming that scenario is off the table. I just can't imagine the pivot happening now, 6 episodes from the end, if it took the show this long to separate them- especially because I have always been 100% certain that Cersei's end does not mean Jaime's. 

Yes, yes a thousand times YES. Jaime's weirwood dream has him separated from Cersei (interesting to note that all the people who leave Jaime in the dream are dead) and he goes off with Brienne. A naked Brienne.

10 hours ago, SimoneS said:

The early version of the script had Cersei having a miscarriage so she is definitely pregnant. Qyburn may be repulsive and macabre, but he is a talented Maester, there is no way that he would wrongly identify a pregnancy.

 

The leaks said Cersei woke in a bed of blood, not that she miscarried. It's assumed she miscarries.

[WindyNights]

5 hours ago, BlackberryJam said:

No one cares if Cersei is surprised or not. That just...doesn't make sense from a storytelling perspective. 

Sandor is Gregor's little brother and there is a good chance that Gregor is a little brother as well. In the books, there is a reference to a Clegane sister. I believe she died and the how of it is never discussed. So it's definitely possible that either Clegane could 'little brother.' If that's the situation, it makes sense for the show to have left out the valonqar part of the prophecy because it would require too much otherwise needless Clegane backstory.

 

The story cares if Cersei's entire identity is undercut from her. That's what Jaime betraying her does. Her ideal self kills her. Not even Jaime loved her.

The writers don't even know if Sandor is going to come back in the books so I doubt he'll be the one to kill Cersei. 

You're close with Gregor Clegane but I don't think he'll kill Cersei. I think he'll be killing Jaime after he kills Cersei thereby dying in each other's arms.

Theres no real tragedy to Gregor killing Cersei.

 

5 hours ago, BlackberryJam said:

Yes, yes a thousand times YES. Jaime's weirwood dream has him separated from Cersei (interesting to note that all the people who leave Jaime in the dream are dead) and he goes off with Brienne. A naked Brienne.

Jaime's story might actually be one of those things that changed post-ASOS because of the scrapping of the timeskip. 

I don't think GRRM intended for Jaime to kill Cersei until after the timeskip. 

The biggest hint is Jaime's dream with his mother in AFFC where she implies that Cersei and Jaime's story is heading towards a tragedy and they will never fix their reputation: 

 

One. One hand, clasped tight around the sword hilt. Only one. "In my dreams I always have two hands." He raised his right arm and stared uncomprehending at the ugliness of his stump.

"We all dream of things we cannot have. Tywin dreamed that his son would be a great knight, that his daughter would be a queen. He dreamed they would be so strong and brave and beautiful that no one would ever laugh at them." 

"I am a knight," he told her, "and Cersei is a queen."

A tear rolled down her cheek. The woman raised her hood again and turned her back on him. Jaime called after her, but already she was moving away, her skirt whispering lullabies as it brushed across the floor. Don't leave me, he wanted to call, but of course she'd left them long ago.

 

[BlackberryJam]

You can keep clinging to Jaime as the valonqar, but quite simply, Jaime walked away, books and show, leaving Cersei to her own devices and eventually, to her own death, which will not be by Jaime's hand.

[TarotQueen]

21 hours ago, SimoneS said:

The early version of the script had Cersei having a miscarriage so she is definitely pregnant. Qyburn may be repulsive and macabre, but he is a talented Maester, there is no way that he would wrongly identify a pregnancy.

 

21 hours ago, SimoneS said:

Well I wasnt privy to the leaked info, but I thought it might be menopause.  Not that Qyburn misidentified it either, but, and keep in mind this was spitballing; but that maybe he wouldnt want to tell Cersei that to her face.

But alas wrong, wrong, wrong.  In any case it still makes me wonder how selective Qyburn might be in the information he feeds her.  She's not incapable of blaming the messenger, he doesnt have an enviable job.  But he's crazy like a fox.

[SeanC]

On 9/12/2017 at 5:49 PM, herbz said:

I believed it would be an Aerys 2.0 situation when he killed her, but the show has already had Cersei blow up the sept and almost have Jaime murdered and he didn't do it then, so I'm presuming that scenario is off the table.

I don't think you can assume that, because the show has made ill-fitting story changes like that before arriving at the same result as the books.

[herbz]

5 hours ago, SeanC said:

I don't think you can assume that, because the show has made ill-fitting story changes like that before arriving at the same result as the books.

Eh, fair enough, but I still believe that what's gone before would really lessen the impact of him doing it in S8. We can't even say 'the audience wouldn't be surprised, but Cersei would be' now, because Jaime's deliberately placed himself on the other side. She considers him a traitor. At least in the books she has no idea or is in denial about what he's up to. 

Edited September 14, 2017 by herbz

[paigow]

Jamie meets Ed Sheeran en route to Winterfell and mentors him. Ed ultimately kills the NK and ends up as Prime Minister of Nova Westeros. Or Melisandre brainwashes everyone in the platoon to believe that Ed killed the NK....The Fleabottom Candidate...dun dun dun

[Oscirus]

On 9/13/2017 at 0:30 AM, SimoneS said:

The show had to contrive a situation for Shae to be physically low enough for Tyrion to strangle her, that is unlikely to happen again.

Cersei could easily fall trying to back away from Tyrion.

 

That being said, Valonquar isn't necessarily a thing on the show, so we might be concentrating on all this for nothing. Her death can happen however.

[SimoneS]

22 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

That being said, Valonquar isn't necessarily a thing on the show, so we might be concentrating on all this for nothing. Her death can happen however.

True. The show might even forgotten about the prophecy or might just ignore it. It wouldn't be the first time. Since Cersei will be meeting her fate according to what Martin told D&D, we will know for sure either way. 

[Chris24601]

I'm wondering if the valonqar might not be the baby Cersei is carrying and that, just like often happens in real life, she escapes all wordly justice, but is instead done in by the mundane complications of a forty-something woman carrying a child to term.

The irony would be that in trying to evade the prophecy, Cersei concieves the very younger brother (of her dead children) that does her in. The child wasn't counted as one of her children because she doesn't live to raise it. Bonus points if the child she dies giving birth to is a dwarf and she learns of this just before she passes (which might just hint at a certain degree of divine justice to it all).

[PatsyandEddie]

^^^This is my expectation as well. The fact that her child is a dwarf would also be proof that Tyrion is indeed Tywin's son. 

Edited September 15, 2017 by PatsyandEddie
typo

[madam magpie]

15 hours ago, Chris24601 said:

I'm wondering if the valonqar might not be the baby Cersei is carrying and that, just like often happens in real life, she escapes all wordly justice, but is instead done in by the mundane complications of a forty-something woman carrying a child to term.

The irony would be that in trying to evade the prophecy, Cersei concieves the very younger brother (of her dead children) that does her in. The child wasn't counted as one of her children because she doesn't live to raise it. Bonus points if the child she dies giving birth to is a dwarf and she learns of this just before she passes (which might just hint at a certain degree of divine justice to it all).

I like it!

[Chris24601]

I can't claim credit for it, but the notion of Cersei being killed off by her child just feels like the sort of twist GRRM would go for... that sometimes bad people never are punished for the crap they pull, but we all suffer death just the same.

Also, it is still kinda Jaime's fault for knocking her up. :-)

My OTHER big theory is that we've had the perfect Chekov's Gun set up for how Jon's true birthright will end up spread far and wide.

Sam is going to do it.

1) Sam knows the full story of Jon's parentage and even has records to back it up.

2) Sam does NOT know that his father and (more importantly) his brother were burned alive by Dany for refusing to accept her as rightful queen (which he now knows is a lie, Jon is the rightful heir) so the pain will be fresh and raw, making it more likely to compromise his judgement.

3) Sam's only experience with someone being burned alive was Mance where it was a horrible slow death and he was also to be burned to death for refusing to kneel to a false ruler. This same event also taught Sam that Jon will risk the wrath of such a ruler to grant what mercy he could and keep a man from being burned alive.

4) Sam has previously defied Jon's wishes by nominating him to be the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch because the alternative was leadership going to someone he saw as a bad ruler (he also ran off with his father's sword, defied the Archmaester to cure Jorah and stole a bunch of books and fled the citadel when he felt those in authority were ignoring a real chance to help).

Everything in Sam's story since season five seems to have been arranged so that, when he finally learns that Dany killed his brother (and father) for a lie, it will be entirely believable that impulsively reveal Jon's parentage to everyone against Jon's wishes in order to try and keep Dany from becoming queen.

I don't have any firm predictions on what happens after that, but I fully expect that it will set up most of the non-Dragons vs. Dead action (which even on a major motion picture budget wouldn't be more than an hour and change of the final 6++ hours).

[paigow]

1 hour ago, Chris24601 said:

Everything in Sam's story since season five seems to have been arranged so that, when he finally learns that Dany killed his brother (and father) for a lie, it will be entirely believable that impulsively reveal Jon's parentage to everyone against Jon's wishes in order to try and keep Dany from becoming queen.

Dany did not know it was a lie at that time...To the best of her knowledge, she is the last in her bloodline...Sam needs a better reason.

[Inquiry]

I'll agree that Dany didn't lie because she had no inkling of the truth, but I think it might matter to a just informed, emotionally raw Sam that the justification used to burn his brother and father alive isn't even true. 

[Chris24601]

11 hours ago, Inquiry said:

I'll agree that Dany didn't lie because she had no inkling of the truth, but I think it might matter to a just informed, emotionally raw Sam that the justification used to burn his brother and father alive isn't even true. 

That's pretty much my point. If Sam had heard of his brother (and father's) deaths back when they occurred he would have had time and distance and the view that Dany was the last Targaryen with Dragons to help him come to terms with "Dad and Dickon were really dumb."

But the showrunners chose to withhold that news from Sam for a plot-driven reason and I strongly suspect it was so that Sam could hear that Jon is the rightful King and be in a position where he can tell as many people as possible about that (directly with all the armies coming there and indirectly since Winterfell still has Raven-service) once he's been incensed to do so.

Let's say you hear your father and brother were just killed when a driver slammed into them. The intersection was poorly marked and the driver that killed them thought he had the right of way and barrelled into the intersection without looking. Would you be angry with the driver? Would you want to see them punished? What if you heard the person who killed them had been on his way to get a job as your new boss at the time of the accident because a screw up kept information about a better candidate being available from the board of directors?

Let's say you had the opportunity right then and there when you heard this person killed your family to undermine this person; maybe even get them fired so the better candidate can get the job; before they even officially became your boss? Would you do it?

That's the position Sam will be in.

The fact that Randall and Dickon were burned for what turned out to be a reckless mistake on Dany's part (Tyrion counseled her to put them, or at least Dickon, in the dungeons, but she needed to make an example of them right then and there) makes it something that Sam can see as an injustice done to his family (his mother certainly didn't deserve to lose her youngest son in that way).

All the pieces are there. You don't have to like it, but the best available fit for why these things were explicitly set-up for Sam (actually, back to having him put Jon's name forward on a spur of the moment decision on the show instead of campaigning for Jon ahead of time as in the books; highlighting his impulsive attempt to thwart a bad call by putting Jon up for something he had no desire to have) is geared towards presenting Sam's choice to blow Jon's identity publically as something completely in-character for him based on past actions.

Because there are at least 4 hours (probably more like 6-7 if the "all of the final six are feature length" turns out to be true) of screen time that just due to budgets can't be filled with dragons vs. zombies action and that has to be filled with something and blowing up Jon's identity is something so central and all encompassing it's the exact sort of live grenade you'd need to throw everything into chaos.

Jon's true identity is THE central mystery of the entire series. EVERYTHING hinges on it. Robert's Rebellion hinged on his conception. Dany's belief in her claim that's seen her wage wars of conquest on two continents hinges on Jon having been hidden away so that Dany could believe herself the Last Dragon. Jon's choice to join the Night Watch (allowing him to befriend the Free Folk and encounter the Night King) hinged on his belief that he was a bastard. The central conflict of the entire series (even as the true threat brewed) has been the war for the Iron Throne (even Dany's far flung efforts have been about preparing to take it) and the climax (pun intended) of the entire penultimate season is the exclamation "He's not a bastard, he's the heir to the Iron Throne."

Something that big doesn't GET to stay hidden in fiction. It doesn't get to come out when its most advantageous for the protagonists. All the rules of dramatic structure say something like that has to come out in the absolute worst possible way; as big and uncontrolled and unplanned for as possible. It should cause EVERYONE to question what they think they know.

Jon and Dany assuredly, but also Sansa and Arya (who is losing a beloved brother who made her feel like less of an outsider since he was the other child that looked like a Stark and getting a cousin in return... I think she'll get over it pretty quickly, but it would absolute robbery to be denied a scene between Jon and Arya that explored those feelings). It would shatter the confidence of the Northern Lords in Jon (did he know he wasn't Ned's son when he bent the knee to the Targaryen not-queen?) and probably push Sansa into the position of "Queen in the North" despite her having been shown as not wanting it. It will give Dany's Westerosi supporters (most notably Varys; perhaps Tyrion) cause to question whether Dany is truly the right person for the throne now that there is an alternative. It will give Cersei ammunition to use against Dany by claiming the dragon queen is as much a usurper as any of the other pretenders to the throne.

How it plays out after that explosion I leave to others to decide, but it will happen... drama says it HAS to happen.

Edited September 16, 2017 by Chris24601

[TarotQueen]

15 hours ago, Chris24601 said:

.... and probably push Sansa into the position of "Queen in the North" despite her having been shown as not wanting it.

Eh I would say despite her having been shown as not wanting it enough to try to take it from Jon.

If the lords who named him decided to unname him, I dont think she'd be mad if they looked her way.

Otherwise cosign the rest of your post.  I think more and more that the reveal will end up open and public.  Poor Jon ... 

[herbz]

Who's going to tell Sam about what Daenerys did? Unless she's the worst diplomat of all time, I don't think she'll just come out with it on introduction, and I'm not sure Jon even knows precisely what went down on the field of fire. Bran, to continue his habit of revealing sensitive information insensitively? Tyrion? Jaime, who seemed to like Dickon? I totally agree that everyone will find out about Jon. 4 hours of Kit silently brooding about whether to tell anyone while everyone else carries on obliviously would not be much fun. 

I don't know how the information would get to Cersei considering she's going to be isolated from the rest of the cast, but I really want her to find out, if only for the callback to her 'what harm could Lyanna Stark's ghost do to us that we haven't already done to each other?' line from S1. 

Edited September 17, 2017 by herbz

[paigow]

4 hours ago, herbz said:

I don't know how the information would get to Cersei considering she's going to be isolated from the rest of the cast

Everyone at the Citadel knows...Qyburn must have at least one mole there...

[Chris24601]

4 hours ago, herbz said:

Who's going to tell Sam about what Daenerys did?

Given his tendency to fuck things up every time he tries to be win people over to Dany's cause (and because he was there to witness it), my guess would be Tyrion.

I think it'll probably be something along the lines of Sam and Bran tell Jon about his heritage and Jon decides that he needs to go to Dany with it immediately and Sam will offer to come along as moral support (and get in a few jibes by way of questions to the effect of "so, just was it like, fucking your aunt? Did it feel weird?" "Not until just now..."). Then they meet Tyrion outside whichever chambers Dany is staying in and while Jon goes in to see Dany, Tyrion, as a means of starting the conversation with Sam offers his condolences.

"Umm... Condolences for what?"

Cut to a scene of Sam storming off to the Rookery and beginning to write furiously.

As with all of Tyrion's many fuck-ups, it will be because he thinks he's trying to do right by Dany... by being a conciliator (and because, as witnessed by his after-action scene with Varys, Tyrion was conflicted about Dany's actions afterwards and hearing someone directly involved be understanding of the situation... since he was obviously acting as if nothing was wrong while going to meet with Dany... would help ease his conscience). He thinks he's offering condolences for an event in the past that Sam has surely already heard about, but he's actually the one breaking the news to poor Sam and, instead of his actions/plans helping, he once again makes matters worse for Dany.

Tyrion's luck since murdering his father is enough to make me somewhat believe in the Kinslayer curse. It doesn't come at you directly, it just makes your every decision turn to shit until one of them finally kills you.

Edited September 17, 2017 by Chris24601

[SimoneS]

21 hours ago, Chris24601 said:

That's the position Sam will be in.

The fact that Randall and Dickon were burned for what turned out to be a reckless mistake on Dany's part (Tyrion counseled her to put them, or at least Dickon, in the dungeons, but she needed to make an example of them right then and there) makes it something that Sam can see as an injustice done to his family (his mother certainly didn't deserve to lose her youngest son in that way).

Dany burning the dumbass Tarlys wasn't reckless or a mistake. They were traitors to the Tyrells and participated their butchering and then they refused to bend the knee to Dany even after she gave them several chances (more than Jon gave Janos Slant, btw).  Dickon was, especially a dumbass, not giving a second thought about his mother and sister alone in the world. Also by burning them, Dany got the remaining Lannister bannermen to bend the knee possibly saving thousands of lives. 

As for Tyrion, all his advice to Dany has been treacherous. He got her allies killed and proposed the wight hunt to save his family and minimize their losses. She should have banished him to Essos or Braavos after she lost Olenna and the Unsullied were stuck at Casterly Rock. Unfortunately, he is a main character who is going nowhere and will survive to the end when he really needs to end up at Gregor's mercy.

All this being said, after all the show went out of its way to recast Dickon and play up the Tarlys' deaths and the dumbing down of Tyrion a far smarter character, I can see Sam suddenly becoming all self-righteous about the deaths of those losers who had no use for him.  

[paigow]

1 hour ago, Chris24601 said:

Tyrion, as a means of starting the conversation with Sam offers his condolences.

 

The same thing happened with Jorah on their "Doom Cruise"...

[Minneapple]

2 hours ago, SimoneS said:

All this being said, after all the show went out of its way to recast Dickon and play up the Tarlys' deaths and the dumbing down of Tyrion a far smarter character, I can see Sam suddenly becoming all self-righteous about the deaths of those losers who had no use for him.  

He doesn't have to be self-righteous to be upset about his dad and brother dying, or even for it to just be a plot point or a character point. And honestly I don't think he'll work himself into a righteous fury or anything like that, because yeah, his dad was shitty. But it will matter because they've made a huge deal out of it, especially since they made a point to not tell Sam right away.

[magdalene]

On 9/14/2017 at 7:21 PM, Chris24601 said:

I'm wondering if the valonqar might not be the baby Cersei is carrying and that, just like often happens in real life, she escapes all wordly justice, but is instead done in by the mundane complications of a forty-something woman carrying a child to term.

The irony would be that in trying to evade the prophecy, Cersei concieves the very younger brother (of her dead children) that does her in. The child wasn't counted as one of her children because she doesn't live to raise it. Bonus points if the child she dies giving birth to is a dwarf and she learns of this just before she passes (which might just hint at a certain degree of divine justice to it all).

I am really liking this. Much less predictable than Tyrion or Jaime killing her. I like the irony of it.

Reading the books I was always completely certain that Cersei would die. But on the show I can't say I am certain at all.  I think she will die - but I wouldn't want to bet on it.

[domina89]

I've always imagined Cersei would die by poisoning.  There seems to be so many instances of it in her life- her threat to poison herself and Tommen during the Battle of Blackwater, Joffrey dying by poison, Myrcella dying by poison, Cersei killing Tyene with poison, Olenna dying by poison (because of Cersei).  I've always just imagined she would die via poison, specifically "The Strangler."  It is not as exciting, of course, but it is the kind of word play on a prophecy that GRRM often likes to do.  I could see Jaime, perhaps, dying in the WW battle and Arya taking his face then heading to King's Landing to finish off Cersei.  Arya has already used poison to kill the Freys (I think it was The Strangler she used, too) so it would make sense from a narrative standpoint.

[MarySNJ]

18 hours ago, Minneapple said:

He doesn't have to be self-righteous to be upset about his dad and brother dying, or even for it to just be a plot point or a character point. And honestly I don't think he'll work himself into a righteous fury or anything like that, because yeah, his dad was shitty. But it will matter because they've made a huge deal out of it, especially since they made a point to not tell Sam right away.

Not a righteous fury but people do lash out when they are grieving sometimes. Anger is one of the stages of grief, supposedly.

I can't see Sam being upset at all about Randall's death; the man who threatened to kill him on his 18th name day. He stole the Tarleys' Valyrian steel sword before he went to the Citadel as a sort of passive-aggressive F-you to his father (and because he needed for the Great War).  But I can see Sam being upset about Dickon. In fact, I could see where learning that Daenerys killed his brother might lead Sam to blurt out in anger or grief that she wasn't entitled to their fealty because she isn't the rightful heir to the Iron Throne. 

ETA:  Once again, I'm late to the party as Chris24610 said it better and in more detail. 

Edited September 18, 2017 by MarySNJ

[screamin]

12 minutes ago, domina89 said:

I've always imagined Cersei would die by poisoning.  There seems to be so many instances of it in her life- her threat to poison herself and Tommen during the Battle of Blackwater, Joffrey dying by poison, Myrcella dying by poison, Cersei killing Tyene with poison, Olenna dying by poison (because of Cersei).  I've always just imagined she would die via poison, specifically "The Strangler."  It is not as exciting, of course, but it is the kind of word play on a prophecy that GRRM often likes to do.  I could see Jaime, perhaps, dying in the WW battle and Arya taking his face then heading to King's Landing to finish off Cersei.  Arya has already used poison to kill the Freys (I think it was The Strangler she used, too) so it would make sense from a narrative standpoint.

It would be a bit weird because of the specific reference to 'hands' strangling her in the prophecy.

[domina89]

32 minutes ago, screamin said:

It would be a bit weird because of the specific reference to 'hands' strangling her in the prophecy.

True, but no weirder than all the 'Jaime is the valonqar' theories, considering he has only one hand.  I guess it is just up to individual interpretation.

[Katsullivan]

48 minutes ago, MarySNJ said:

But I can see Sam being upset about Dickon. In fact, I could see where learning that Daenerys killed his brother might lead Sam to blurt out in anger or grief that she wasn't entitled to their fealty because she isn't the rightful heir to the Iron Throne. 

Am I the only one who missed this Robb+Jon-esque Brotherly Love between Sam and Dickon? 

[Chris24601]

4 minutes ago, Katsullivan said:

Am I the only one who missed this Robb+Jon-esque Brotherly Love between Sam and Dickon? 

It doesn't take huge gushing displays of close familial love for someone to be upset that their brother was murdered due Dany's false beliefs. Hell, even he just had the basic familial love that say Jon and Sansa have someone could be grief-stricken enough to take action against them (it's not like his action would even be an attempt to get Dany killed, he just wants Jon in power instead of the BBQ-happy queen he's never met).

If it helps, imagine that Sam is upset over the grief that the death of his brother has caused to his beloved mother and sister.

[Katsullivan]

24 minutes ago, Chris24601 said:

If it helps, imagine that Sam is upset over the grief that the death of his brother has caused to his beloved mother and sister.

That doesn't translate to the kind of Robb+Jon-esque "mad dash for vengeance" scenario that's being painted of Sam here. Nor can I imagine someone who lived through a time where 5 Kings warred across Westeros would be too bent out of shape over whether Dany was "rightful" Queen or not when she executed two men that volunteered to die.

Most of the outrage over Tarlys's death will be on this side of the screen. 

[Oscirus]

On 9/14/2017 at 10:21 PM, Chris24601 said:

I'm wondering if the valonqar might not be the baby Cersei is carrying and that, just like often happens in real life, she escapes all wordly justice, but is instead done in by the mundane complications of a forty-something woman carrying a child to term.

The irony would be that in trying to evade the prophecy, Cersei concieves the very younger brother (of her dead children) that does her in. The child wasn't counted as one of her children because she doesn't live to raise it. Bonus points if the child she dies giving birth to is a dwarf and she learns of this just before she passes (which might just hint at a certain degree of divine justice to it all).

Hate to be that guy but it doesn't work. The prophecy also referred to Roberts 19 kids and he definitely didn't live to raise all of them.

[Chris24601]

2 hours ago, Katsullivan said:

That doesn't translate to the kind of Robb+Jon-esque "mad dash for vengeance" scenario that's being painted of Sam here. Nor can I imagine someone who lived through a time where 5 Kings warred across Westeros would be too bent out of shape over whether Dany was "rightful" Queen or not when she executed two men that volunteered to die.

Most of the outrage over Tarlys's death will be on this side of the screen. 

Who said anything about a "mad dash for vengeance"? I said emotionally raw enough to make a rash decision and release information.

Second, let's remember that Sam spent the ENTIRE War of the Five Kings isolated in the far north at Castle Black. He's got no context for what happened in the war (again... that's why this setup is so particularly obvious. Sam has been practically tailor-made to engage in what amounts to a storm of angry letter writing).

Third, letting the world know that someone isn't entitled to something they were never entitled to is hardly vengeance. Its about as "vengeful" as writing and posting a bunch of angry tweets (should it be "caws" for Ravenmail?).

Guess what? If Dany wants to be queen she's either going to have to claim it by conquest or marry the rightful king. It doesn't just get handed to her on a silver platter because this isn't some badly made kids show where everything is a misunderstanding that gets talked out peacefully with everyone getting exactly what they want. This is Game of Fucking Thrones and for anyone to get what they want its going to be blood, sweat, tears and pain all the way to the bitter end.

Do you WANT Daenerys to be a freakin' Mary Sue whom no one ever strongly disagrees with and gets the throne without any real fight or struggle at all in getting what she wants? If you don't then accept the fact that she (like everyone else) will have to go through the crucible to get to her happy ending.

Should Luke have been given command of the Rebel forces and led them to an easy victory over the Death Star without the loss of a single Rebel pilot? Hell NO!!! Heroes get tested. HARD. Especially at the climax of the story. First he lost his aunt and uncle, then Obi-Wan, then Han and Chewie left. Then most of the squadron got blown up. Then Wedge had to pull out, then Biggs got killed, then Artoo got fried... Obviously Luke Skywalker and the Rebels were hopelessly doomed and you should just turn off the film when Vader gets the target lock because its all over then. No possible way Luke could possibly overcome that. Right!?!

No one is saying this is going to destroy either Dany and/or Jonerys (I mean it could, but it doesn't have to). Its a plot complication; an obstacle and an opportunity; and a very easy one to spot because of the aforementioned elements with Sam which is I brought it up.

I swear, its like there's this existential dread that ANY plot complication in Dany's path is going to utterly destroy her. Do you really think she's as fragile as that?

Edited September 18, 2017 by Chris24601

[Scarlett45]

1 hour ago, Oscirus said:

Hate to be that guy but it doesn't work. The prophecy also referred to Roberts 19 kids and he definitely didn't live to raise all of them.

Perhaps the number of kids is number of children born living. I could see Cersei dying from complications during child birth and the baby boy being still born. 

[tangerine95]

Basically all of season 7 has been loss after loss for Dany,not to even mention stuff that happened in previous seasons.And then when she actually got a chance to take the throne she sacrificed it to go north and fight the WW.I really wouldn't say she had anything just given to her or that she didn't struggle unless the whole world turns on her in season 8.

With the Sam thing,I can see it going both ways tbh.Imo Sam is smart enough that if he knows how it happened and that they refused not just to bend the knee but refused to be neutral by joining the NW,he would get that it wasn't some cruel decision and that it's just what happens in a war.But I can also see them ignoring logical explanations the way they did with Sansa and Arya this season and making it a drama since they did somewhat set it up by making sure Sam doesn't find out yet.

[Chris24601]

27 minutes ago, doram said:

This is such a strange statement.

Its really not. Mary Sue's (nor does the male counterpart, Gary Stu) don't struggle for what they end up with.

Previous hardship is irrelevant. Luke doesn't get a cakewalk Death Star trench run because he's already lost his aunt, uncle and mentor in practically the same day. Main characters that are not Mary Sues in a dramatic narrative suffer right up the very end. Its what they do.

Dany hasn't been written as a Mary Sue. That's my point. But I see a lot of suggestions that she should be written as one for the final season... that her endgame story should be that none of the rules of narrative storytelling apply to her and she should have smooth sailing through the final season. She gets a miracle baby and Jon will choose to keep his heritage a secret and events will conspire to keep it secret so that Dany can cleanly and neatly claim the throne in her own right without any drama and keep Jon as her lover/husband once her easy victory over the White Walkers is complete.

I'd say the same thing if the news of Jon's heritage came out and all the Northern Lords instead of being the feckless weather vanes they are, react with a "Quite all right old boy, you didn't know. You can keep right on being our king" and Cersei immediately declares Jon the true king because he's the son of the man her late husband killed on the way to getting his throne and she sees now that this was totally unfair.

Proper story structure doesn't work that way.

Sam not knowing his father/brother are dead yet, but knowing Jon's true parentage is a fully loaded Chekov's Gun that the showrunners have mounted on the wall in such a way its very hard to miss. They explicitly wrote a scene to highlight that Sam does not yet know and that he was not told because the Archmaester didn't want to "upset the boy." That's Storytelling 101 for... At some point Sam is going to learn about it and he's going to be really upset. The showrunners are not the least bit subtle about this stuff (and that's actually been one of the complaints about last few seasons; all the subtlety is gone).

The idea that Jon's heritage will NOT be used to amp the drama for practically everyone up to eleven (because it can... Jon, Dany, Arya, Sansa, the Northern Lords, even Cersei will all be affected by the fallout if it goes public) is so utterly outside the bounds of the principles of narrative structure it wouldn't even be hack writing if it didn't blow up in everyone's face (because even hack writers know this stuff)... it'd be tween written self-insert Twilight stories on fanfiction.net.

But people keep trying to make up reasons why the most obvious plot twist in the books; something so obvious it can be seen from space; cannot happen because, what? That it might mean Dany has to wait until the final episode before she gets her happy ending? The HORROR!!!

The ONLY reason to be upset by this is if you're a Dany fan who believes the showrunners intend to screw Dany out of everything in the last act and that ANY possible speed-bump will be the cue for her impending doom.

All I said was "Sam will spill the beans about Jon's true parentage to everyone after he hears that Dany burned his brother and father alive and this will cause complications for everyone."

You'd think I said "Dany's going to go full blown villain, lose everything before dying and only be remembered as a monster while Jon and Sansa hook up, rule Westeros from Winterfell and make lots of babies" for the way some people are reacting to it.

[TarotQueen]

I think the idea that Sam has been set up to react to this news at Winterfell in front of Dany is probably pretty accurate.  It does seem obvious there has to be some sort of conflict around this matter when  you remember that the Maesters deliberately withheld the information from him, and bam, he's about the meet Dany any day now.

I don't know if I agree that it will take the same path as some are suggesting, re:  a "you're not even the real queen anyway!"  outburst on his part.

For all of his joviality and comic relief (levity to offset Jon's broodiness) Sam can be sneaky and even perhaps a bit passive aggressive.  Think of how he pushed for Jon to leave with Quorin Halfhand in season 2 way back from Craster's Keep, after Jon had refused to help Gilly, and had alienated her with his blunt realism.  Jon wanted glory, but Sam didn't do that to be supportive of his friend's ambitions.  He did it to give him more room to possibly help Gilly and her baby escape the situation without Jon being a naysayer.

Without being certain of what type of PA options he may have for acting out on finding out about his father and brother's death, I do think this is a factor that is worth considering as we speculate.  Sam is also the sort of people pleaser (obliger tendency maybe?) who doesn't necessarily act honestly on their feelings in an immediate moment. 

That Sam's father was a dick head, especially to him, clearly doesn't have to mean a lot.  People can have horrifyingly bad relationships with their family members but still be affronted when someone else harms them.   

[OhOkayWhat]

44 minutes ago, tangerine95 said:

But I can also see them ignoring logical explanations the way they did with Sansa and Arya this season

Even if Sansa-Arya storyline felt rushed, the plot followed how their characters behaved in a coherent way with the elements the show established previously.

[bubble sparkly]

I agree Jon's parentage and his claim to the throne will be outed to everyone at some point, whether by Sam or other means. I can't see it being that huge a problem for Dany's quest for the throne though.

Jon has already pledged to her because he thinks she deserves to be queen and has a good heart etc., and he thinks the rest of the North will come to see her how he does. Based on that if any faction of people start a "Jon Snow for King" petition it seems like he would be pretty quick to shut it down and abdicate his claim in favour of Dany. Assuming they both survive the WW,   I can't see him deciding Dany shouldn't be queen.

Besides, it seems like the people of Westeros aren't currently too worried about the technicalities of who is the heir to the throne, exhibit A being Cersei.

It wouldn't shock me if Dany's struggle re her demotion down the line of succession is more internal rather than an external stumbling block.

[GraceK]

So in regards to the whole Tarly situation that has been mentioned, TVTropes pretty much summed up my feelings on the matter::

The showrunners clearly want Randyll Tarly's death to be tragic and a potential Moral Event Horizon for Daenerys. The problem is that Randyll's one of the most despicable human beings on the show, who had betrayed the Tyrells (as Tyrion points out to him) and seems more affronted by Dany's "foreign" upbringing and "army of savages" than anything else. So, while one can feel sorry for his son Dickon, one can also see him as being a victim of Randyll's poor parenting and phony values, and ends up dying as a result of his father's choices for a war he didn't agree on, rather than Dany's. Furthermore, Randyll's disgust at Tyrion's killing of his father is extremely hypocritical considering that he himself threatened to murder his eldest son Samwell in a Hunting "Accident" if Sam didn't go to the Wall. The idea that the Tarlys become the hill to die on for Daenerys's morality feels unearned and tin-eared, especially when Jon Snow's execution of Olly and the Night's Watch traitors (who had the same motivations as Randyll did, i.e. xenophobia) was treated as dispensing justice, and the only moral argument seems to be about burning them alive rather than hanging them.

 

this idea that Sam will react with vengeance in mind or try to throw Dany under the bus seems far fetched. He respects and loves Jon, Jon is more his brother than Dickon ever was and considering the history of him and his family I think he will support and respect Jon no matter what. Also, Dany also saved everyone's ass beyond the wall, lost a child and pledged to help Jon fight the NK and WW. That in itself should be enoUgh for Sam to at least try and work with her, for the sake of the WORLD. Jon was willing to work with the Lannisters after all they had done to his family, including Theon , all for the greater good. Why should we expect less of Sam?

[MadMouse]

I like the idea of Sam being the one to announce it although I think will be Sansa myself. Just because something is obvious doesn't mean they will address it. 

Why hasn't person brought up the fact that Jon is a Oathbreaker? That's a death sentence for these honorable Northern and Vale lords.

Why didn't Sansa react to her resurrected brother or Giants but to Bran and Arya gifts.

Why did the faith militant disappear and Cersei get away with blowing up Westeros's Vatican?

Why hasn't one person since Jon left the North mentioned the word White Walker?

Why haven't we gotten one person other than Dany questioning Tyrion's tactics or loyalty?

[SimoneS]

While Sam spilling tea in front of everyone of Winterfell might happen, it feels out of character for this show. I have been thinking back and cannot think of a huge reveal that done in front of everyone in the soap tradition. A more likely scenario is Sam simply telling Dany about Jon's paternity one to one. Alternatively, I can see the show setting a situation where the audience suspects that Sam is going to betray Dany to Cersei when he finds out about his father and brother's stupidity like it did with Sansa and Arya. 

Edited September 19, 2017 by SimoneS

[Chris24601]

4 hours ago, doram said:

Technically, he Force-walked the Death Star trench run by shooting the impossible target with his eyes closed.

But first Han had to put himself first and leave with Chewie. Then most of the squadron got destroyed until it was down to Luke, Biggs and Wedge. Then Wedge was hit bad enough that he had to pull out. Then Vader blew Biggs out of the sky. Then Vader blasted Artoo. The Death Star cleared Yavin and was within moments of firing. Vader was getting a lock on him. EVERYTHING was systematically stripped away from the hero until it seemed his death was certain.

Only then, as Vader was moments away from blowing Luke out of the sky did Han Solo come screaming in and clear Vader off his back long enough for Luke to put his trust in the Force and save the day.

Again, this is NOT about Dany or Jon's endgame. Its about the structural elements that will play into the plot leading up to that endgame. This is very basic screenwriting stuff here so I struggle with why it would be regarded as so controversial that Dany and/or Jon will have non-dragons vs. zombies obstacles to overcome on the way to whatever their endgames are.

 

3 hours ago, GraceK said:

He respects and loves Jon, Jon is more his brother than Dickon ever was and considering the history of him and his family I think he will support and respect Jon no matter what.

If Sam supported and respected Jon's decisions no matter what, Jon would never have become Lord Commander.

He may love Jon, but when Sam saw an injustice (ex. allowing someone like Thorne to be in charge of the Night Watch) that Jon could solve by stepping up, he put Jon up to the task whether Jon wanted it done or not. Its 100% in character to do the same when it comes to who gets to be in charge of the coalition against the Army of the Dead; Jon or the woman who burned his brother and father alive?

Like I said... literally ALL the pieces of Sam's backstory, particularly since season five support him taking a very specific course of action. Its why the dual-whammy of the Archmaester explicitly NOT telling Sam about the deaths coupled with Bran telling Sam about Jon's heritage when he wouldn't even tell his own sisters until he had a chance to talk to Jon are so obvious a Chekov's Gun hanging. The first gives Sam motive to act while the second provides his means by which to act.

Also, my friends are more family to me than my actual family. That doesn't mean I'd go along with protecting one of their girlfriends if said girlfriend killed a member of my family.

They aren't going to fill the 75% of the remaining story that can't be fight sequences (because there's not the budget for it) with Jon and Dany getting domestic. There have to be multiple real conflicts to drive the story and fill those 4.5+ to 6+ hours (the latter if "every s8 episode will be feature-length proves true) with something that will hold the viewers' interest. If not Jon's paternity going public and all the subsequent fallout (for Jon, Dany, Arya, Sansa, the Northern Lords and Cersei) just what do you think is going to fill all those hours?

[GraceK]

7 hours ago, Chris24601 said:

If Sam supported and respected Jon's decisions no matter what, Jon would never have become Lord Commander.

He may love Jon, but when Sam saw an injustice (ex. allowing someone like Thorne to be in charge of the Night Watch) that Jon could solve by stepping up, he put Jon up to the task whether Jon wanted it done or not. Its 100% in character to do the same when it comes to who gets to be in charge of the coalition against the Army of the Dead; Jon or the woman who burned his brother and father alive?

Disagreeing with Jon is one thing, actively working against him is another. Look, I'm not saying Sam is gonna take Danys hand and skip through flowers singing friendship . There is definitely going to be some kind of reaction and an awkward conversation when the truth comes out. However, I just feel in the grand scheme of things, Sam will realize there are more important things happening. Jaime killed Danys father and tried to kill Dany herself. That didn't stop her from being willing to form an alliance with the Lannisters and seek a temporary truce. Same with Jon and being willing to work with not only Theon, but the family that destroyed his. Jaimes headed to Winter fell  and will have to face down the child he tried to murder (bran). There is gonna be ALOT of natural drama just by these characters meeting up. Is Sam even aware that Jon was stabbed to death or that Jon executed his killers? There's gonna be enough pathos with the revelation that Jon is a Targaeyen.  It will seem unbelievably petty of Sam if he tries to undermine or go against Jon because his asshole family was rightfully executed. And I personally don't want to see a bunch  of time going towards Manufactured drama with Sam that to me seems OOC.

Edited September 19, 2017 by GraceK

[paigow]

13 minutes ago, GraceK said:

Is Sam even aware that Jon was stabbed to death or that Jon executed his killers? 

Now that he and Bran are exposition buddies...Bran should be able to tell him...

[GraceK]

29 minutes ago, GraceK said:

the same when it comes to who gets to be in charge of the coalition against the Army of the Dead; Jon or the woman who burned his brother and father alive?

That woman also has 2 dragons and 2 armies at her back to fight against the NK and WW. It would be seriously dumb of Sam to whine about Dany being in charge. Also, my understanding was that Dany and Jon are a team, I don't think it's just Dany heading the coalition anyway. Jon is clearly the more experienced fighter and has been the one who has been actively trying to fight them for years... I don't think Dany has any intention of making Jon her subordinate.

[screamin]

1 hour ago, GraceK said:

Disagreeing with Jon is one thing, actively working against him is another. Look, I'm not saying Sam is gonna take Danys hand and skip through flowers singing friendship . There is definitely going to be some kind of reaction and an awkward conversation when the truth comes out. However, I just feel in the grand scheme of things, Sam will realize there are more important things happening. Jaime killed Danys father and tried to kill Dany herself. That didn't stop her from being willing to form an alliance with the Lannisters and seek a temporary truce. Same with Jon and being willing to work with not only Theon, but the family that destroyed his. Jaimes headed to Winter fell  and will have to face down the child he tried to murder (bran). There is gonna be ALOT of natural drama just by these characters meeting up. Is Sam even aware that Jon was stabbed to death or that Jon executed his killers? There's gonna be enough pathos with the revelation that Jon is a Targaeyen.  It will seem unbelievably petty of Sam if he tries to undermine or go against Jon because his asshole family was rightfully executed. And I personally don't want to see a bunch  of time going towards Manufactured drama with Sam that to me seems OOC.

Sadly, I think manufactured drama is often the show's bread and butter. And I don't think it's TOO farfetched to imagine Sam resentfully blurting the news in the angry moment he is informed that Dany burned his father and brother to death...while his father had it coming, Sam seems to have liked his brother, and more importantly their deaths will leave his mother and sister vulnerable to displacement from their home. I could see him throwing the news at Dany - and then the show making a great deal of melodramatic hay of Dany getting the notion that Jon had put Sam up to it, to see if he could get Dany to renounce her claim to the throne that he could pick up after a show of reluctance...

[GraceK]

49 minutes ago, screamin said:

Sadly, I think manufactured drama is often the show's bread and butter. And I don't think it's TOO farfetched to imagine Sam resentfully blurting the news in the angry moment he is informed that Dany burned his father and brother to death...while his father had it coming, Sam seems to have liked his brother, and more importantly their deaths will leave his mother and sister vulnerable to displacement from their home. I could see him throwing the news at Dany - and then the show making a great deal of melodramatic hay of Dany getting the notion that Jon had put Sam up to it, to see if he could get Dany to renounce her claim to the throne that he could pick up after a show of reluctance...

That I could see...unfortunately lol