S02.E13: Can Josh Take a Leap of Faith?

[allonsyalice]

This season finale had me shook. I'm still processing it. I would like to say Valencia was slaying that outfit.

[AllyB]

On 2/7/2017 at 7:33 AM, Black Knight said:

I know Rebecca is focused on destroying Josh Chan, but hopefully she takes a minute away from that agenda to call her bank and stop the check.

I can see why Rebecca let him keep the money. As far as her father has told her, the money is to pay for medical care for her little brother. If I was in a position to afford medical care for my half sibling, even if i didn't know him very well, and his parents couldn't afford it, I'd probably pay it. It's not her brother's fault that their dad is a scumbag, in fact her brother has also probably suffered due to their father's personality.

15 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I thought it was pretty simple: he was vacationing in NY and happened to run into Becks. It's been a long time since I watched the pilot, so maybe there was something more to it that I missed.

Josh had been living in New York and hated it so he was literally leaving for the airport to go home when Rebecca met him. I don't think it's ever been explicitly stated but I feel it's been implied that the move to New York coincided with problems in his relationship with Valencia and his return to West Covina coincided with them reuniting.

[txhorns79]

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I can see why Rebecca let him keep the money. As far as her father has told her, the money is to pay for medical care for her little brother. If I was in a position to afford medical care for my half sibling, even if i didn't know him very well, and his parents couldn't afford it, I'd probably pay it. It's not her brother's fault that their dad is a scumbag, in fact her brother has also probably suffered due to their father's personality.

I think outside of dire medical emergencies, in a situation like Rebecca's, it's extremely inappropriate for her father to be asking for anything from her, and Rebecca's first instinct to give nothing was the correct one.  This isn't her problem, and shouldn't be made into her problem.  Besides, wasn't the request for money for something like getting the kid braces?   

[dubbel zout]

3 hours ago, AllyB said:

As far as her father has told her, the money is to pay for medical care for her little brother.

Here's hoping. Her dad is scuzzy enough that I side eye any claim he makes.

[theatremouse]

3 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

I think outside of dire medical emergencies, in a situation like Rebecca's, it's extremely inappropriate for her father to be asking for anything from her, and Rebecca's first instinct to give nothing was the correct one.  This isn't her problem, and shouldn't be made into her problem.  Besides, wasn't the request for money for something like getting the kid braces?   

Yes, it was for braces. Perhaps her father's job doesn't include dental? Or includes really shitty dental that excludes orthodonture even for minors? If Rebecca were in a more sound place mentally, I would've expected her lawyer-self to be clever enough to make the check out to the brother (or the orthodontist) not her father. Not that she was in a remotely good place at the time to think that far ahead.

[txhorns79]

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Yes, it was for braces. Perhaps her father's job doesn't include dental? Or includes really shitty dental that excludes orthodonture even for minors?

I don't know if it matters.  This is so not her problem.  That may sound harsh, but honestly, it sounds like Rebecca has no relationship with anyone in her father's new family, and I think Rebecca mentioned she hadn't seen her father for a number of years before he came to her wedding.  It's bizarre to me to think she should be providing funds to them for anything.   

[theatremouse]

Oh she shouldn't, but even if she has no relationship with the kid I can see her still caring.

[DianeDobbler]

I don't think the Bad Girl is a good trope on soaps. I think that's the good girl, with the bad girl as a foil. The bad girl is easier to write, so writers fall into that habit. IMO some of the soapy bad girls listed above, while many had a cult following, were more popular with the writers than with the general audience, if one tracks ratings when they were the focus of the show.  In the past fifteen or so years, Bad Girls often won, or at least the good girl certainly did not.

Crazy Ex-Girlfriend really is ground-breaking IMO, because Rebecca in many ways has the patina of a good girl. Good family (meaning educated family with money, nothing more), high achieving. Very good at her job, and it's a high status job. She's socially elite as well, more or less. She has girlfriends who are not her stooges or foils - or oblivious.  When they do enable her, it's not because Rebecca is the stronger personality, but because her girlfriends have their own issues or enjoy the drama. She does remind me a bit of the wild girl, more than the bad girl. Just the way she slammed back a slug from the bottle before dumping some on the bed and setting fire to it had a little of that recklessness.  This is not something I see on television so much as in real life. If this were a more realistic show she'd be a pretty regular recreational drug user and hopping into bed with more than one person from time to time. I've known girls like this. One is a good friend. She had the grounding in good family, good education, good job, but my God, the drama. She, also, tended to date "down" as far as the guys she chose were slackers without "real" careers and had problems of their own (such as alcoholism), or nowhere near as bright as she is. I think she literally grew out of it - I'd swear it was delayed frontal lobe/impulse control maturation because by the time she was in her late twenties she had slowed down an enormous amount without her external circumstances changing, and now she is happily married. She did go to therapy. Wild girls on television tend to opt for wildness even when it's going to destroy a key stability pillar in their lives. Wild girls I've personally known who were like Rebecca, compartmentalize. They fly their freak flag in their personal life, but even if it means no sleep, hungover, bad breakup the night before or any other misadventure or even humiliation, by God they get that paper written or the rent paid. It's like being a functional alcoholic.

Edited February 8, 2017 by DianeDobbler

[Rinaldo]

On 2/7/2017 at 1:34 PM, Chicago Redshirt said:

I thought it was pretty simple: [Josh] was vacationing in NY and happened to run into Becks. It's been a long time since I watched the pilot, so maybe there was something more to it that I missed.

My recollection is that he moved there (though I don't recall that we were told just what he did for work), but he didn't like it and decided to move back to West Covina, at which point he ran into Becks.

[sTim]

I get that Tovah Feldshuh is a great actress, but I am really not a fan of her character. I feel like we've seen the overbearing, overly critical mother so much in TV that it's not entertaining anymore. "Everybody Loves Raymond" beat it to death, somewhat literally, in the sense that I don't enjoy it on any show anymore (and it was the main reason I stopped watching that one in its prime)

[Bruinsfan]

On 2/5/2017 at 7:15 PM, txhorns79 said:

As for insulting Rebecca's father in front of her, I'm entirely fine with that.  The guy is a sleazebag, and it's silly to try and protect Rebecca from the reality of how truly awful he is. 

Seriously, what sort of parent, upon seeing his daughter get jilted at the altar and almost do a swan dive off a cliff, has the response of yelling "You're crazy!" in an angry, accusatory tone? Like I said before, I wish Naomi had been a lot less passive in her passive aggression toward him.

[dubbel zout]

18 minutes ago, Bruinsfan said:

Seriously, what sort of parent, upon seeing his daughter get jilted at the altar and almost do a swan dive off a cliff, has the response of yelling "You're crazy!" in an angry, accusatory tone?

I think this was to show that her dad really is a complete failure as a human being; it wasn't hyperbole or bias on anyone's part.

[txhorns79]

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Seriously, what sort of parent, upon seeing his daughter get jilted at the altar and almost do a swan dive off a cliff, has the response of yelling "You're crazy!" in an angry, accusatory tone?

I'll preface this by saying Rebecca's father is an awful person.  However, in this particular instance, he really was responding after Paula and Rebecca took their anger at Josh out on him.  Obviously, a better parent would have tolerated the situation, realizing it wasn't about him, and his daughter's behavior showed she was clearly not in her right mind, but his comments to Rebecca in that moment were in response to her attack on him, not just his general reaction to seeing the drama.  

[HunterHunted]

5 hours ago, sTim said:

I get that Tovah Feldshuh is a great actress, but I am really not a fan of her character. I feel like we've seen the overbearing, overly critical mother so much in TV that it's not entertaining anymore. "Everybody Loves Raymond" beat it to death, somewhat literally, in the sense that I don't enjoy it on any show anymore (and it was the main reason I stopped watching that one in its prime)

It can be a bit of sitcom trope, but I feel like sitcoms explore the overly critical mother's unbelievable narcissism only 50% of the time and how her criticism is driven by her narcissism. Was Doris Roberts' character on Raymond narcissistic? I've only seen a handful of episodes. If the writing is strong, then I don't have issues with exploring a character like Naomi. Lucille Bluth from Arrested Development, Marilyn from Difficult People, Bobbi Adler from Will and Grace, and even Mallory Archer from Archer are all overbearing narcissistic critical mother types, but they all feel like unique characters. If this show can write Naomi well, then I'm fine with exploring her character. I can't picture the Naomi we see today ever being with Silas. I think a lot of Naomi's harshness is an extreme overcorrection after being hurt by Silas.

[Domestic Assassin]

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On ‎2‎/‎7‎/‎2017 at 10:34 AM, Chicago Redshirt said:

I thought it was pretty simple: [Josh] was vacationing in NY and happened to run into Becks. It's been a long time since I watched the pilot, so maybe there was something more to it that I missed.

 

My recollection is that he moved there (though I don't recall that we were told just what he did for work), but he didn't like it and decided to move back to West Covina, at which point he ran into Becks.

 

Josh told her that he'd been living in NYC for 8 months but he hadn't been able to make it work.  He didn't mention what he was doing during for a living during that time.  Given what we've learned about Josh since then, it just doesn't seem to fit that he'd have moved there in the first place.  I would have found it more believable if he'd just been there on vacation.

[mamey2422]

1 hour ago, Moose Andsquirrel said:

Josh told her that he'd been living in NYC for 8 months but he hadn't been able to make it work.  He didn't mention what he was doing during for a living during that time.  Given what we've learned about Josh since then, it just doesn't seem to fit that he'd have moved there in the first place.  I would have found it more believable if he'd just been there on vacation.

I never realized we never learned why Josh was in NYC. I imagine him trying to make it as a model given his stint as a mall model. 

[AllyB]

13 hours ago, Moose Andsquirrel said:

Given what we've learned about Josh since then, it just doesn't seem to fit that he'd have moved there in the first place. 

It also doesn't fit with Josh's character that he'd want to be a priest. While he is definitely a bit religious, he's also an overgrown child and he clearly really enjoys sex. It's also been implied that his move to and from New York had to do with his relationship with Valencia. The relationship was likely getting too much for Josh so he grabbed some sort of half assed 'opportunity' to move away from it. When that didn't work out, he went not just back to West Covina but straight back to Valencia and very quickly decided to move in with her. He's a weak man who will do all sorts of dramatic crap to avoid making tough decisions that might make him feel like the villain of his own story.

Valencia wanted to move the relationship forward so he moved to New York so he didn't have to think about what was going on between them and possibly be the bad guy who breaks her heart. Valencia realises their relationship isn't right and breaks up with him, Josh 'realises' Rebecca has been the one for him all along. Rebecca admits to moving to West Covina, Josh moves in with her and treats her badly waiting for her to cock up so he can leave her without being the bad guy. Josh's new girlfriend dumps him, he loves Rebecca all over again. Josh realises marrying Rebecca isn't right, he suddenly wants to be a priest. It's just a huge pattern for him. I wouldn't be surprised if when the priesthood thing inevitably crashes and burns, Josh decides he loves Rebecca again. (Because I suspect he won't initially realise that all the awful things that are 'randomly' happening to him are the result of Rebecca's revenge.)

[DianeDobbler]

I found the legal piece of things a little confusing. The professor requested a restraining order, which was granted. I don't see how Rebecca would be convicted. She went to trial? Seems like a straight up plea situation where you have a hearing and agree to mental health treatment in exchange for charges being dropped  So the judge saying the conviction would be expunged seemed weird because I don't think this would have proceeded far enough to conviction. A deal would have been worked out.

I don't blame Naomi for anything. I think she's fairly typical. To bring my own ex-wild friend into it, she's very bright, everyone else in the family was married with a status job (good marriages, too, from what I've observed), and I think the family believed that if she had a good, stable spouse and a good job, it would create a structure to contain her craziness. They would get very upset by the guys she dated (low hanging fruit). I think Naomi sort of hoped that Rebecca's job in NYC and success would straighten her out. Besides, a lot of families don't know the full extent of their children's issues. Up until the arson event, I could imagine Naomi saw her daughter as rebellious, a bit promiscuous, and unconventional in ways she wished were otherwise, but not mentally ill. And also as somebody that managed to behave herself / function in her own sphere but who insisted on reverting to adolescence when at home. Naomi herself seems to have thrived decently after her divorce (mentioning that her vagina had gotten good reviews lately).

Not mentioned yet is the father / daughter dance rehearsal, and Rebecca's giddiness when the choreographer thought she and her father were a couple. Hard to express it, but I thought that was done so well, and I completely understood why that would make Rebecca happy. She thought the choreographer saw a connection between herself and her father, that they belonged together in some way, and that made her ecstatic.

Hector and his mother - I thought it was a good point about would we react this way if it were a father and daughter BUT I think we are clearly meant to see the relationship as inappropriate, with weird sexual overtones / lack of boundaries, and I believe CEG would be able to convey the same thing with a daughter / father. I also think they'd be able to do a son / mom who liked each other without the creepy edge.  A bit OT, but this past Xmas I was at a midnight mass sitting behind a son / mother / father.  It took me a bit to sort it out, because there was very little interaction between the guy I thought was the dad, and the other two. Instead, the "son" stroked the older woman's back, looked into her eyes, tickled her lower back, ran his hand up her neck and massaged / stroke the back of her head, and in general appeared to be looking for excuses to touch her. She didn't do the same to him but did not seem uncomfortable about how much he was touching her, including wrapping his arm around her lower back /hips when they sat down. I kept thinking, ok, this could very easily be May / December, and maybe the older guy is the older lady's brother. But nope, it was mother /son. Got the same creepy vibe from Hector and his mother, although less overt. Just things like "Wait til they play OUR songs." I've seen plenty of moms / sons who like each other, and daughters / moms, daughters / dads - this isn't that.

Edited February 12, 2017 by DianeDobbler

[possibilities]

I think that as long as Rebecca was getting good grades (which she had to be if she got into Ivy League schools), her mother would look the other way on any other signs of dysfunction, until and possibly even after any arrest. I've seen that be very common cover for people who would otherwise not pass as "being OK".

Also, as we have seen throughout the show, her behavior was erratic and rather ridiculous, but lots of people behave in ridiculous ways and have romantic obsessions and ill-advised relationships. If we started to draw the line more firmly on that, there would be no more movie industry and there wouldn't be enough psychiatrists to keep up with the demand.

I personally have a low tolerance for any of this kind of drama in real life, and I love that the show calls it out for what it is. But in everyday life, Rebecca's behavior (except the arson and the cross-country move) is only slightly more absurd than what I've seen people do, and she keeps a lot of the worst of it hidden, while looking like a successful lawyer and good friend on the surface. I can imagine her mother easily not noticing the extent of it, just like the people in her life in West Covina didn't fully get how dangerous it was, even if some of them thought it was not the greatest.

[Eeksquire]

So, I started a rewatch of Season 2 now that it's on Netflix and I've noticed two things: first, as much as I love this show, I love it MORE when I can binge watch - something about the way it's built just works better when you're not breaking it up with a week in between episodes.

Second, and I might just be really slow on the uptake here, but: drunken arson seems to be Rebecca's go-to for dealing with romantic disappointment.  We see the flashback in this episode, but watching the beginning of the season again, Rebecca setting all of the Josh and Greg memorabilia on fire in her kitchen sink is the catalyst for moving in with Heather.  I had forgotten the details of how that all went down, but talk about a destructive pattern! I hope we get more Dr. Akopian in Season 3, both because I think it would be good for Rebecca (and interesting to watch) and because I adore Michael Hyatt.

[txhorns79]

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I think that as long as Rebecca was getting good grades (which she had to be if she got into Ivy League schools), her mother would look the other way on any other signs of dysfunction, until and possibly even after any arrest.

Also, if Rebecca was in college, she would likely only have limited interaction with her mother, so it would be much easier to hide any problems.  Who knows?  The fire and resulting arrest may have been the first time Naomi even knew Robert existed. 

[DianeDobbler]

Was reading an interview with the show runners who said that S3 would explore Rebecca's mental illness issues, but ALSO said that there is probably a little boy in kindergarten sporting a Rebecca Bunch-shaped scar somewhere. So, this is very much Rebecca, and Robert wasn't necessarily THE primal event.

Also, while every town has every sort of person, I think the bigger the place, the more crazy / wild / dramatic types of people you might know. I think *I* might have pegged Rebecca as "crazy" maybe the second time she cycled back around. I'd probably have a flag up knowing she had the resume she had, but ended up in West Covina. AND observing how old she was, how insanely hard she worked, but how out of control the rest of her life often is. I think the other West Convina-ites might have done the same if they were from, say, L.A.

[whiporee]

On 2/12/2017 at 0:35 PM, DianeDobbler said:

I believe CEG would be able to convey the same thing with a daughter / father.

They did. 

One of the truest songs they've ever done. Because having a daughter is weird. 

[Chicago Redshirt]

On 2/12/2017 at 1:35 PM, DianeDobbler said:

I found the legal piece of things a little confusing. The professor requested a restraining order, which was granted. I don't see how Rebecca would be convicted. She went to trial? Seems like a straight up plea situation where you have a hearing and agree to mental health treatment in exchange for charges being dropped  So the judge saying the conviction would be expunged seemed weird because I don't think this would have proceeded far enough to conviction. A deal would have been worked out.

It sounds like she engaged in a plea deal. Depending on the sort of plea deal, charges can be dismissed, or there can be an agreement to plead guilty/no contest to lesser charges. It sounds like this was one of the latter.

On 2/10/2017 at 8:04 AM, AllyB said:

It also doesn't fit with Josh's character that he'd want to be a priest. While he is definitely a bit religious, he's also an overgrown child and he clearly really enjoys sex. It's also been implied that his move to and from New York had to do with his relationship with Valencia. The relationship was likely getting too much for Josh so he grabbed some sort of half assed 'opportunity' to move away from it. When that didn't work out, he went not just back to West Covina but straight back to Valencia and very quickly decided to move in with her. He's a weak man who will do all sorts of dramatic crap to avoid making tough decisions that might make him feel like the villain of his own story.

Valencia wanted to move the relationship forward so he moved to New York so he didn't have to think about what was going on between them and possibly be the bad guy who breaks her heart. Valencia realises their relationship isn't right and breaks up with him, Josh 'realises' Rebecca has been the one for him all along. Rebecca admits to moving to West Covina, Josh moves in with her and treats her badly waiting for her to cock up so he can leave her without being the bad guy. Josh's new girlfriend dumps him, he loves Rebecca all over again. Josh realises marrying Rebecca isn't right, he suddenly wants to be a priest. It's just a huge pattern for him. I wouldn't be surprised if when the priesthood thing inevitably crashes and burns, Josh decides he loves Rebecca again. (Because I suspect he won't initially realise that all the awful things that are 'randomly' happening to him are the result of Rebecca's revenge.)

There are a couple ways to look at it. 

Way 1: Being a priest is within Josh's skill set/mindset

Josh is more than "a bit religious." We've seen him have numerous chats with Father Brah outside the confines of the church, and he's an active volunteer with the church. 

Josh is a mellow guy who sees the best in everyone and wants to uplift people. 

All of that potentially says "priest."

Way 2: Josh is a directionless man-child, and "priest" is just one of the many things he has considered being

A couple episodes ago, he was considering a new career as a male model. He was a radiologist's assistant before being an electronics sales guy.

Way 3: Josh is just re-enacting his pattern  

When things get tough, Josh finds himself going for another attractive woman. Things were getting tough with Rebecca. So he plans to get married to Christ.

[AllyB]

Fr Brah was one of Josh's childhood best friends, wasn't he? I'm not sure Josh would be going to chat so often to a priest who wasn't a peer and a friend. And volunteering with various church activities is no demonstration of faith. Josh enjoys doing sports activities with teens, coaching the basketball team at the church is the same as being a counsellor at the secular camp to Josh. He isn't especially religious as he has broken many of the tenets of the Catholic Church and has demonstrated that he has no genuine understanding of the faith. He may attend mass semi-regularly with his family, enjoy the community aspect and be willing to accept Fr Brah as a moral authority but he is not priest material.

[Bruinsfan]

I trust this show to highlight that mismatch if Josh actually joins a seminary and starts taking classes that require deep thought about spiritual questions. My impression is that the Roman Catholic Church takes the education of its clergy fairly seriously, it's not like some Protestant Fundamentalist sects where anyone with a Bible to thump can declare himself a reverend and call his neighbors together for a church-raising.

[AllyB]

3 hours ago, Bruinsfan said:

I trust this show to highlight that mismatch if Josh actually joins a seminary and starts taking classes that require deep thought about spiritual questions. My impression is that the Roman Catholic Church takes the education of its clergy fairly seriously, it's not like some Protestant Fundamentalist sects where anyone with a Bible to thump can declare himself a reverend and call his neighbors together for a church-raising.

Well this is tv, so I don't know how realistically they will show the process but I know a few ex-priests and becoming a full priest takes about the same level of time and commitment as becoming a doctor. The standard is to first earn a Bachelors Degree in a subject like philosophy and volunteer heavily in your local church. Coaching the youth basketball team wouldn't come close to the minimum required to show commitment, you'd need a much broader array of areas in which to volunteer and becoming a lay deacon would be a good idea. After that degree you'd enter the seminary where you study for a further 4 years. You essentially complete another degree Theology and Canon Law while becoming versed in the basics of ancient Greek and Latin. During this time you also receive pastoral training and what amounts to counselling about their relationship with God to make sure that it's a good fit. Once your study is finished you'd be ordained as a deacon and spend about a year in this 'junior priest' role before finally becoming eligible to be ordained as a full priest. That's a minimum of 8 years of very full on study and work and it's not really suited to people who don't have quite strong intellectual leanings.

There are two types of priest, a diocesan priest who works in and serves a particular parish. That's what Father Brah appears to be (I think it's actually been stated). And a priest of a religious order like the Franciscans or Carmelites, etc. The latter take vows of poverty and have more limited levels of independence and social interaction, both in their work and personal lives, as their work is study heavy. Josh would almost certainly be envisioning life as a diocesan priest. But either way the process is intensive and Josh isn't remotely suited to it. Especially as we are at a point in time where so many of the men who do go through all of that and become ordained priests are leaving the priesthood in huge numbers. Despite their massive commitment to the priesthood, they still can't live the actual life of a priest. Realistically not only would Josh not make it past the initial stages of training but Fr Brah is statistically likely to leave the priesthood too as priests in his peer group are already more likely to quit than stay.

Edited February 14, 2017 by AllyB

[DianeDobbler]

Well, I know about Darryl's daughter song, but what I mean is, I think CEG could have created an icky father / daughter relationship a la Hector and his mom, and the ickiness wasn't dependent on the respective genders.

My take on Darryl's song wasn't that it was dealing with his love for his daughter, but dealing with the weirdness of songs about father / daughter love, because in country music MAN are there some icky ones.  And I believe that would make Darryl self-conscious explaining his love for his daughter.

The icky songs become really popular, which is disconcerting. The all time champion in this category, IMO, is called "Daddy's Hands".  "Daddy's hands were soft and kind when I was cryin', Daddy's hands were hard as steel when I'd done wrong Daddy's hands weren't always gentle but I've come to understand, There was always love in daddy's hands."

And then a song sung by a father called "Butterfly Kisses."

I'll bet anything CEG shows Josh living in the seminary, just the way we see young girls in old movies knock on the convent door and gaining admission. That always kills me,

Edited February 14, 2017 by DianeDobbler

[DianeDobbler]

On ‎2‎/‎13‎/‎2017 at 10:20 PM, Chicago Redshirt said:

It sounds like she engaged in a plea deal. Depending on the sort of plea deal, charges can be dismissed, or there can be an agreement to plead guilty/no contest to lesser charges. It sounds like this was one of the latter.

I re-watched to make sure, and the judge said the "conviction" would be stricken. I checked because of the discussion here that, as a lawyer, Rebecca would be expected to disclose the conviction in interviews, even if it were stricken from her record. So I thought, well, I remember dialogue about if she got mental health treatment this event wouldn't be on her record, so maybe it's not a conviction, but a hearing, or a plea. But in the rewatch, I confirmed that the judge says straight up that the conviction would be stricken. Seems like something that would have been pled out before any trial or ruling.

About narcissistic mothers - I read Doris Roberts' very entertaining autobiography. Her concept of Marie was that Marie was very concerned with remaining relevant in the lives of her family, and that was behind her undercutting Ray's wife, always being the person that knew best, did it better, etc. That made a lot of sense to me. If a woman of a certain disposition has spent most of her life as a homemaker, and her kid(s) grow up, marry, move on, she may feel that her relevance has expired. Particularly if she was a very strong presence when her kids were younger, and now she's more on the sidelines. There are plenty of women who pursue their own interests at that stage of life, but I bet there are those who keep pushing to remain influential, because they're unable to reconceive their role in life in this new stage.

Curious about Naomi's lifestyle. She's still in Scarsdale, has the house, doesn't seem hurting for money even though she's unemployed. Her ex-husband, however, is a ne'er do well Irish Catholic guy who hits his daughter up for money (don't think for one second the money was actually for his kid's braces). Doesn't seem like a guy who'd have been in a position to support his ex-wife in Scarsdale and fund his child's education at Harvard and Yale, not to mention what looked like paying for an outrageously expensive stay in a mental health rehab facility (the lawn, the chair, the discreet nursing staff that appears on the lawn to give you your meds, versus you having to show up for it yourself). Silas doesn't seem like a guy who'd have been able to establish that lifestyle even before he walked out. So where did the Harvard/Yale/Sanitarium money come from? Is Naomi retired from a lucrative career in law, finance or medicine?

[Chicago Redshirt]

What I was trying to convey is that one can be convicted by pleading guilty, rather than by a trial.

[Lunula]

I'm very late to the game here, as I've just spent the last 4 days binge-watching both seasons. I must say, the CW completely mis-marketed this show. In fact, I remember seeing like one commercial teaser for it and thinking, "Ugh! Looks stupid!" I didn't even know it was a musical. Needless to say, I was hooked from episode 1 and I am still surprised. 

I only wanted to add to this discussion that I felt...discordant(?) about Josh's decision to become a priest. I felt strongly there was no way they'd get married, especially after the random Robert revelation; however, I almost feel like it's a cop-out for Josh. I can swear revenge against my fiance leaving me for another woman or just because he's a man-child - but for God? I like that he refused to read the Top Secret file, but the priest thing isn't speaking to me.

I very much enjoyed the reveal regarding Rebecca's past mental health issues and I think the show was pretty masterful, through both seasons, at being funny, serious and sad at the same time. Ya' know, I did some crazy ex-girlfriend things in my youth, too, and they all stemmed from deep-seated emotional issues regarding loss, rejection and straight-up anxiety about my future. I relate to Rebecca on some level and very much appreciate the show writing her as incredibly smart, competent and witty - but flawed. 

[DianeDobbler]

It's on Netflix now.

[femmefan1946]

He isn't especially religious as he has broken many of the tenets of the Catholic Church and has demonstrated that he has no genuine understanding of the faith.

Well, Augustine.https://lexloiz.wordpress.com/2008/10/15/‘lord-make-me-pure-but-not-yet’-–-augustine’s-naughty-prayer/

He may attend mass semi-regularly with his family, enjoy the community aspect and be willing to accept Fr Brah as a moral authority but he is not priest material.

I suspect the seminary (or whatever that was he ran to) will take him in for a spiritual retreat and then send him back into the world with contacts for help with his problems. Father Brah for all his 'dudeness' does have a real committment and is a lot smarter than most of his buddies. I can believe he has his Doctor of Theology degree (or at least is studying for it).

Churches, or at least mainstream ones, are pretty rigourous about who they ordain.

[kieyra]

I may have just caught something, or maybe you guys already realized this--I usually miss minutiae.

Are we supposed to have known all along that Rebecca attended both Harvard and Yale--before this recent reveal, I mean?

Because way back in "Where's the Bathroom", which I think is from a S1 episode, her Mom mentions spending money on 'Harvard and Yale'.

(I was randomly listening to soundtrack songs on Spotify--it's got the commentary tracks too.)

[Rinaldo]

1 hour ago, kieyra said:

Are we supposed to have known all along that Rebecca attended both Harvard and Yale--before this recent reveal, I mean?

 

They made a big deal of it in the pilot, when she showed up at Whitefeather. Paula was incredulous about it to Mrs H, when she read Rebecca's CV. It always seemed odd to me that she would have attended both (either by itself is prestigious enough for any purpose)... but now at last we know how that came about.

[DianeDobbler]

For those who brought up that we're supposed to believe Rebecca is a size six - back when Rebecca and Valencia went to the desert enlightenment event, Valencia described herself as a "ginormous size 6, junior 5/7." Even with some slight padding, Valencia was still quite a bit more slender than Rebecca, which makes the idea that Rebecca is also supposed to be a size 6 even more disappointing. 

Back to the song "I love my daughter." I really do think this is a meta thing, singing about how weird and "coming out wrong" it can be to talk about your love for your daughter, particularly in song. I know plenty of father / daughters where the daughter is Madison's age, and (fortunately) I have never seen a creepy father / daughter vibe. What I see in person, even when the relationship is loving, is definitely and matter of factly parent-child. Just the other day I was walking ahead of a father / daughter where he was explaining to her how president William Henry Harrison actually probably died from drinking water contaminated by the raw sewage field a short way from the White House, and not from pneumonia contracted by delivering his inaugural address in the rain. Overhead conversations between fathers/daughters that I hear on the subway are about schedules (that's a big one), reminding the daughter about stuff they need to remember, or negotiating something the kid wants to do or making an exception to the usual rules at home.

One last thing - one of the reviews said that the Nathaniel Plimpton character highlighted something the show often sweeps under the rug - a substantial class divide between Rebecca and her friends. Rebecca grew up going to Ivy schools (which is as much about the money your family has, where you live, and what prep schools you attended as brains), knows how to pronounce prix fixe and amuse bouche, and has been dating down. Greg a bartender, Josh a "human flip flop." But that's not quite true. We have seen that while her boyfriends are slackers, they actually have a toehold in the same world Rebecca comes from. Greg's mother, for example, obviously has a wealthy husband, and she expressed that they'd be happy to support any ambition he had that required schooling or other help. Hell, even when his dad sold the house, half of the money was supposedly able to fund Greg's entire Emory stint AND fund his dad's new life at an upscale retirement community (and I really doubt that house, in West Covina, not a closer L.A. suburb, went for the kind of money that could fund his dad's retirement, let alone still do that while giving half to his son). Josh's dad is a radiologist, and his family appears upper middle class to me. Where his sister was buying her wedding dress was an expensive bridal boutique complete with the champaign and fashion show experience. Josh was a bit fish out of water at the restaurant, but his parents were perfectly at ease. So it appears to me that these guys have more of a common background with Rebecca than it would appear from their current lifestyles. It's just that Rebecca was precocious and fast-tracked, while Greg and Josh drifted a lot more. Both had the sort of family background that were in a position to help them do whatever they wanted once they decided what that was.

Edited February 19, 2017 by DianeDobbler

[Serena]

On 19/2/2017 at 2:03 AM, kieyra said:

Are we supposed to have known all along that Rebecca attended both Harvard and Yale--before this recent reveal, I mean?

Because way back in "Where's the Bathroom", which I think is from a S1 episode, her Mom mentions spending money on 'Harvard and Yale'.

Rebecca also mentions it in "I give good parent". She says "Yale, Harvard undergrad" when trying to impress Josh's parents with her Ivy League education.

[DianeDobbler]

On the subject of Josh's spirituality, I know in S2 episode (I was binge watching), he mentioned that he differed from Rebecca in that he enjoyed the spiritual side of life. He told her straight up that he enjoyed that part of the bar mitzvah they attended, and that he was excited to be coaching basketball because it was church basketball. He emphasized that aspect. He has flat out said the spiritual side of life interests him. It makes sense - camp fits in there as well.

I've been giving some thought to the male characters, particularly Josh, and I think Josh's competence is underrated. His real problem is his skills and accomplishments aren't something he's organized into a career path, so he looks aimless or even talent free, but he's actually quite talented. He's clearly a talented dancer / choreographer and athlete (he was remembered 10 years after he left high school) and these skills inform his volunteer activities. And speaking of that - volunteer activities. Youth basketball. Youth camp. He excels contributing to both. He's tech savvy. He's also exceptionally social media savvy. A male Asian guy in his demographic with that inherent understanding of and talent for social media could probably hook up with a social media job for a hip company whose products were aimed at millennials. Warby Parker (the online eyeglass company) employs a guy just like Josh to facetime, instagram and everything else so the target demo feels like the company is a friend. I know of a travel company looking for someone like Josh - they really want the demographic more than they want the resume.

When the script allows him, he has emotional intelligence. He also has a sneaky something that Rachel Bloom and Aline Brosh McKenna wrote in for both of Rebecca's love interests - financially comfortable, loving and supportive families. On the surface with Josh we have a guy still working a "job" and not a career, who hasn't put together any sort of life path for himself, but we also see his family has means, and can induce that if he wanted to go back to school or explore a specific career track, he'd have their $upport. The same was true of Greg. We first met him as an "aimless" bartender who was nominally still in town for altruistic reasons, but in reality, kept himself stuck. He spent his savings on his father's medical care - however, I'm thinking that without his father, he'd have to pay rent somewhere, so that situation wasn't the trap it seemed to be.  And he turns out to have a wealthy, loving, Beverly Hills-dwelling mother eager to support him moving on from being a bartender whenever he says the word (I always wondered why a bartender went to night school instead of part time day school, or why Greg seemed to work most during the day, whereas most bars make their money at night).  So both of Rebecca's S2 love interests were on her "class" level in terms of family background, they were just both underachievers while she was a hyper overachiever. And Greg and Josh had more in common than we'd think as well, at least in terms of where they found themselves in life at the same time of life.

Edited March 20, 2017 by DianeDobbler

[aradia22]

It wasn't the most satisfying season finale. It certainly wasn't bad, but it seemed to be more geared towards setting up new plotlines for next season. Which makes sense because I think they knew they were renewed. It also reminded me a lot of Devious Maids and some other soaps, especially with that ending. I liked her finally standing up to her dad and I LOVED the unspoken sisterhood visual of Rebecca being flanked by the female friends she has managed to accumulate. I was less thrilled about her needing to get revenge on Josh. I was hoping she'd finally make a move towards self improvement. Or at least throw herself at Nathaniel. Surely they can find better ways of keeping Vincent on the show. 

[aradia22]

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Deciding to be a priest is such a Josh thing to do. I don't see it sticking either but we'll see.  I'd hate to lose Father Brah.

I don't doubt that Josh is religious but I think it's more that he's HIGHLY suggestible. Given how girl-crazy he's been I don't see it sticking. 

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Paula has been so good this season but I don't think telling Rebecca that it's the guy's fault for not loving her back was the right move.  

I also felt a little weird about it but I get it. That is, Paula is right that Rebecca doesn't have something that makes her unlovable, most especially with her dad (the Greg/Josh stuff gets a little complicated). But that also doesn't mean that she doesn't have issues she needs to work on. There's a difference between 'you deserve love and happiness' and 'the person you've chosen is obligated to love you' (again, except for the dad part, because that's shitty). 

Also, I thought it was weird how they deferred the obvious conclusion that Valencia should get into the party planning business. 

I don't want it to be all flashbacks (there have been countless TV shows where that has gone badly) but I do hope we get more of the place where Rebecca was institutionalized. I just don't need it to go full Girl, Interrupted. Maybe someone from her past there will come back. 

Quote

Lots of nice, entirely legitimate references to earlier episodes here. Naomi defended Rebecca at her hearing using the lyrics of the Season 2 theme song.

The show has always been self-aware but Naomi's bit and also Rebecca talking about having "no underlying issues to address" made that opening theme song MUCH darker. Good job, show.

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I would not even call her issues "daddy issues" because they are much bigger than that. Many people have fathers who abandoned them when they were kids, but majority of them don't behave like her. I don't think Paula knows the extent of her damage... else she would not have enabled Rebecca that much.

Maybe I'm wrong and the creators fully intend for it to be this way. But personally, I think the disconnect here is between the show that does a good job confronting mental illness and the show that deconstructs and indulges in romantic and storytelling and soap opera tropes. Mostly it works when you put them together. But arson and a mental institution really takes it up a few notches. Sometimes the show writes Rebecca as very relatable and then sometimes it writes in something very cartoony. It's almost like on a fantasy/supernatural show when one moment they're normal human beings and the next moment they're doing magic. In this analogy the crazy scheming and illegal hijinks are the magic. Personally, it doesn't affect my ability to sympathize with the character but I do see the inconsistency. Also, I think some things just felt a little rushed this season. I don't know how much of it was due to losing Santino and other practical concerns.

Quote

On the other hand, though, I think if you are going to make a lifelong commitment to someone, you need to be honest with them about the big things. You don't need to give a minute by minute account of your entire life, but having an affair with a married professor, burning down his house, being charged with arson, and having to undergo in-patient therapy is something you should disclose. I understand that Rebecca is not proud of what she did, but Josh isn't some random guy you met at a bar who doesn't need to know this information. This is someone you are planning to spend the rest of your life with, so he deserves to know about major relationships in your past as well as major health issues (mental or physical).

Ah, yes, but as we saw this episode, Rebecca was clinging to a fantasy that the past would be erased and everything would be perfect forever if she could just secure her happy ending. 

I HATE the "all in her head" idea for season 3. God, I hope they don't go that route. I might actually quit the show.

Quote

I find it interesting that most supportive and loving child /parent relationship (Hector and his Mom) is viewed as completely nutty while every one normalizes and accepts the damaging child/parent relationships.

I think that's just a matter of extremes. Daryl and his daughter seem fine. Josh's relationship with his parents is also more or less normal. But Hector and his mom are kind of like Heather and her parents. Too supportive isn't as bad as what Rebecca is dealing with but it can also have consequences. 

Quote

She seemed severely out of it in that mental health facility, and, yeah, she burned a guys house down. That professor seemed like a grade A asshole, but burning a guys house down is never the answer, unless the house is possessed by evil spirits or something.

Just to clarify, did the judge say "arson" or "attempted arson." Attempted arson means she didn't succeed in burning the house down, right?

Quote

That said, I wonder how Hector's relationship with his mother would appear if Hector was a young woman. The friendship shared by many tv mother-daughter pairings, likeThe Gilmore Girls, are seen as mostly positive. Why can't a mother and son enjoy a close adult friendship in a similar way?

1. Heteronormativity. There isn't as much of an assumption that a close mother/daughter or father/son could be engaged in an incestuous relationship. 2. I do think there were throwaway jokes on The Gilmore Girls about them being too close. Certainly, all the characters weren't like that with their parents. 3. Societal norms. By that I mean, Hector and his mom exist in context of the larger society. They should certainly understand what's weird about how they're behaving and yet it appears she raised him in defiance of those societal norms. Contrast that with a Gilmore Girls situation with oversharing and co-dependence but that isn't at odds with the culture. 

[aradia22]

Quote

And it's also worth remembering that Dr Akopian hasn't a clue of the extent of Rebecca's illness. She knows something is very wrong with her but she doesn't know that she set someone's house on fire and was institutionalised for it. She probably isn't assuming that Rebecca is such a potentially immediate danger to herself and potentially others so she doesn't feel the same urgency to stop/help her as she would if she knew what we now do.

I'm curious about what she knows. We know that Dr. A knows what Rebecca has told her... which is likely not that much more than what's going on in her life given how short these sessions are. We also know that Rebecca showed her all the pills the first time because she wanted her to write prescriptions for her. But I don't think we've heard anything about Dr. A getting Rebecca's medical records or being in touch with her other therapists. I'm not sure what the protocol is for psychiatrists. 

Quote

I'll preface this by saying Rebecca's father is an awful person.  However, in this particular instance, he really was responding after Paula and Rebecca took their anger at Josh out on him.  Obviously, a better parent would have tolerated the situation, realizing it wasn't about him, and his daughter's behavior showed she was clearly not in her right mind, but his comments to Rebecca in that moment were in response to her attack on him, not just his general reaction to seeing the drama.  

I think it was two things. One, it shut down any hopes of a good relationship by making him awful. We had hints of him maybe not being a terrible person but not willing to stay married to Naomi and not really being equipped to care for a child. I think it was mostly in the episode where we had the flashbacks to young Rebecca's impromptu visit. This episode was all about making it clear he was awful from calling her crazy to asking for money to the details about him coming to NY with his other family and only seeing her for 20 minutes after not seeing each other for years. Two, I think it was less about misplaced anger and more about him wanting to do his own rewrite. I think it was VERY significant that he kept pushing for a blank slate. A blank slate absolves him of all his wrongdoing. Whereas, this was holding him accountable for being a bad parent and he did not like it.  

Quote

I can imagine her mother easily not noticing the extent of it, just like the people in her life in West Covina didn't fully get how dangerous it was, even if some of them thought it was not the greatest.

I think it's a fair point that a lot of Rebecca's instability was hidden but also, Rebecca is not the only one with issues. Having no real reason to censor herself (beyond how it's affecting her daughter), Naomi might have had trouble correcting her behavior. We can all say things we don't mean in the heat of the moment and know it's going to be bad even before we say it/as it's coming out of our mouths. But that kind of parental nagging... maybe you see it as well-intentioned or maybe you don't care that it's hurtful but if that's a running monologue, it can be hard to stop. The critique of her behavior and appearance, etc. becomes second nature. I think that extends to pushing her to be a lawyer and creating unreasonable standards and trying to order her life. 

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Curious about Naomi's lifestyle. She's still in Scarsdale, has the house, doesn't seem hurting for money even though she's unemployed. Her ex-husband, however, is a ne'er do well Irish Catholic guy who hits his daughter up for money (don't think for one second the money was actually for his kid's braces). Doesn't seem like a guy who'd have been in a position to support his ex-wife in Scarsdale and fund his child's education at Harvard and Yale, not to mention what looked like paying for an outrageously expensive stay in a mental health rehab facility (the lawn, the chair, the discreet nursing staff that appears on the lawn to give you your meds, versus you having to show up for it yourself). Silas doesn't seem like a guy who'd have been able to establish that lifestyle even before he walked out. So where did the Harvard/Yale/Sanitarium money come from? Is Naomi retired from a lucrative career in law, finance or medicine?

I vaguely remember that part of the reason Naomi was pushing Rebecca so hard was that she gave up her own (I think law) career to marry Silas. I don't remember how far she got with her career, if she didn't end up studying or if she was working but gave it up. I don't think there's any family money because the most we've heard about is the Garfinkel ring. Is she unemployed now? I can believe that maybe Rebecca helped support her a little when she was still at the NY firm but yes, now I'm confused about Naomi's financial situation. Especially because they drop details like (I think) using La Mer moisturizer on her body instead of her face... which is crazy expensive even for your face. 

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So it appears to me that these guys have more of a common background with Rebecca than it would appear from their current lifestyles. It's just that Rebecca was precocious and fast-tracked, while Greg and Josh drifted a lot more. Both had the sort of family background that were in a position to help them do whatever they wanted once they decided what that was.

This is interesting in light of the Naomi thing. I'm not sure Greg totally counts as having a common background as he was estranged from his mom for a while. But yes, Rebecca and Josh have similar upper middle class backgrounds. Though I don't think Josh's parents could help him do anything, with all his other sisters to think of. A radiologist salary only stretches so far. Rebecca probably had a sheltered, privileged life but it was likely still fairly typically suburban until she went to college. Whereas I can see Nathaniel doing the whole WASP-y prep school route with the water polo and such. I mean, everyone is reasonably well off but there are still levels within that. The real difference is between these people and the rest of the associates at Plimpton, Plimpton, and Plimpton and Whitefeather and Associates. Like Canadian joke guy and University of Phoenix and Paula, etc. 

[dubbel zout]

9 hours ago, aradia22 said:

I was less thrilled about her needing to get revenge on Josh. I was hoping she'd finally make a move towards self improvement.

I have mixed feelings about this. I don't think in the immediate aftermath that wanting revenge is unreasonable, and if the third season goes in that direction, it could a lot of fun, as well as teaching Rebecca a few things about herself. On the other hand, it could also take over the third season and show us an ever-more-spiralling Rebecca. Like I said, I haz confusion.

[Eeksquire]

I'm not worried about the "revenge" plot - I think at bottom, Rebecca is basically a good person, though she struggles with mental health issues and impulse control.  We've seen her raise her eyebrows at some of the more outrageous/illegal/dangerous schemes of both Paula AND Valencia at this point - Paula's plan to put poison ivy (and ticks!) in Valencia's bridesmaid dress and most of Valencia's antics with Josh's girlfriend spring immediately to mind as examples.  I think the worst thing we've seen her do is pee on the sound equipment from Aloha.  I think she's mostly a danger to herself - taking random pills that she found on Dr. Akopian's floor, setting fire to her apartment, excessive drinking.

I do wonder what will happen next season - will Nathaniel play a romantic role? Will we see Trent again (who I LOVE, but only in small doses - so far, he's been perfect!)?

[aradia22]

I think I'm with @dubbel zout. It could be fun to examine those "scorned woman" tropes for a few episodes but I don't want it to take over the season any more than I want them to go full Girl, Interrupted or, God forbid, tell us the whole thing was in her head this entire time. I mean, there's She Devil, Death Becomes Her, First Wives Club, etc. Given the show's sense of humor, I can easily see them wanting to play with this. Also, telenovelas and soap operas and Fatal Attraction... not to mention all the older examples since this trope is ancient. I don't want them to get too lost in it is all. Plus, yes, I'd like to see them explore her relationship with Nathaniel which might be a little hard if she's always scheming to destroy Josh.

[maczero]

On 2/4/2017 at 3:08 AM, dungeonwriter said:

 

I am not sure if this show can get any darker and still be funny. At this point, Rebecca looks like she's getting close to doing a felony or two, and she could be disbarred, committed or even jailed for this. Every time she hits rock bottom, Rebecca finds a drill and I think she's about hit her limit. 

By my count, Rebecca has committed 4 break-ins and tried to set up Darryl's ex-wife for a major crime.

[STOPSHOUTING]

In season 1 this was my favorite show on television and, well, I just finally finished season 2 after several fits and starts, if that tells you anything.

Much of my ambivalence stems from the fact that they cut back on/eliminated characters I loved — Greg leaving, Heather almost disappearing after the first few episodes, way less WyJosh and Hector, who are infinitely preferable to drippy, dumb Josh — and doubled down on Rebecca who is, intentionally I know, but still, rouuuugggghhhh to “enjoy” watching. 

They also really, after Santino Fontana left, lost their best singer/dancer and the whole musical part of the show, one of its cleverest, most interesting and engaging elements, seemed to almost vanish. I can still recall 6-8 great Season 1 songs, and eagerly bought the soundtrack, but in Season 2 there wasn’t a single post-Tapped That Ass song that is even vaguely memorable, funny or revealing. All the, much briefer, musical interludes seemed forced, overly-stylized and more focused on the music video aspect, rather than the story function of the song. Honestly, they were just totally tacked on. The only really interesting musical number post-Greg’s-departure was Let's Have Intercourse and that still only had 2-3 good lines, whereas something like Season 1's Sex with a Stranger was wall-to-wall laugh-out-loud jokes AND catchy musically.

The intro of the new boss actually worked better than I thought it would at first, even though they had his character do a total 180 inside of less than 2 episodes -- but the whole everyone-falls-in-love-with-Rebecca-for-some-reason thing was just … no. They didn't even give him a reason to like or admire her (digging up dead bodies -- or, more accurately, having PAULA do it -- really?), just a peek at her bra and he's totally infatuated and sending private planes for her dad? I mean, he's a good looking, wealthy young professional ... He's never seen a girl in her bra before? I mean, they're nice, I'm sure, but ... c'mon!

Another small, slightly petty, thing that, I’m sorry, I just couldn’t let go, was when Paula calls Rebecca’s mother and she says to “buy a six 6” wedding dress … Now, I in no way, shape or form think that Rebecca, or actress Rachel Bloom, is fat, but a size 6? C’mon! I mean that completely unnecessary aside just reeked of personal vanity. She could lose 20 lbs and not be a size 6 — particularly not a designer dress size 6 — due solely to her bustiness. I mean, just, sheesh! Every time I saw the dress I was like, ‘Not a 6’ and ‘Why?’ Because it sends like 10,000,000,000,000 wrong messages that the show CLAIMS to be above. What’s wrong with being a 10 or 12? Or, heck, just cut the STUPID UNNECESSARY LINE ALTOGETHER and just say “buy your daughter the most expensive designer dress you can find,” no size mention needed. Arrrggghhh!! This is maybe just me, but it really bugged. Also, the dress was ugly (butt bow, Rebecca, really?).

Also, remember when season 1 Rebecca’s money problems were a plot point? Yeah, neither does the show. Because now she can just buy endless wedding dresses ($$$), decor and supplies ($$$$), buy a new house ($$$$$), give her dad money on a whim ($$$$$$) and bribe a bride to give up her wedding date ($$$$$$$) with zero consequences to her lifestyle. Like, none. Either money matters in this world or it doesn’t, writers, you can’t have it both ways.

Of course, the fact that I could not let these very small things go, is probably also because I just didn’t much care if Rebecca and Josh married, because it’s so clearly a terrible, non-interesting idea. They’re wildly unsuited for one another, EVEN WITHOUT Rebecca’s serious mental health issues. In fact, I hated and admit I skimmed several episodes of them playing happy couple at all, because ... It. Just. Doesn’t. Work. The actors lack chemistry and the characters are so poorly matched it’s not fun to watch them together. At all.

That having been said, I think it would have been waaaayyy more interesting if Rebecca had left Josh at the alter, especially if they’d started out making it look the other way and then, twist. I think that would make a much better, and more interesting, season 3 set-up than the stupid-retcon-she’s-a-Harvard arsonist (insert giant eye roll here). 

I mean, it just makes NO SENSE. People would have known. People we’ve MET in Rebecca’s past would have said something, or hinted, or slammed her for it WAAAYY before now. And I don’t buy for one second that Rebecca herself was blocking it, simply from a time standpoint. She never wondered or questioned why AT LEAST (given trial, institution, et al) a YEAR of her life was just missing in her mind? The same gal who investigated exes and clients and clung like glue to childhood grudges? Umm. Don’t think so. Makes zero sense for the Rebecca we know.

It’s just not credible on any level, including the most basic of you-don’t-leave-a-mental-instituion-where-you’re-dribbling-on-yourself-after-burning-down-a-Harverd-prof’s-house-then-go-on-to-wild-success-at-Yale. Why would Yale even accept her? I mean, no one writes an essay compelling enough for them to overlook major mental instability followed by a felony, like, even solely from a liability standpoint and, yes, I know I’m overthinking this, but still … No.

Though, honestly, if that had been the Inception-esque all-in-her-head SERIES finale, where nothing we saw really happened and she was just institutionalized all along and just imaging West Covina? THAT, I’d buy. I don't know if I'd like it. But, I'd buy it.

OK, rant/vent complete. I don’t know even know if I’ll tune into season 3 and that’s just … sad, given how much I once loved this unique little show and would still 100% watch a show about Daryl & WyJosh, Hector and his mom (My take: 75% cute, 25% unhealthy co-dependance), Paula and the law firm run now by what’s-his-name (though ditch weird glasses girl & Karen) and Father Brah. Heck, even Valencia as wedding planner kind of grew on me. But Josh and Rebecca? Don’t really care. About either of them.

Though I admit I did like the end-of-episode dynamic where the four women are on the cliff, united against the crowd. There's potential there, but I just don't know how you thread the needle between serious, crippling mental health issues and fun, funny female bonding. Again, it just doesn't mesh. You're either too flip with the mental health care Rebecca so clearly, desperately needs (she's literally a danger to herself or others) or you can't integrate her into any light, funny story, because she's dealing with severe mental health problems. It's a problem I think the show has written itself into.

Edited September 25, 2017 by STOPSHOUTING

[STOPSHOUTING]

On 2/4/2017 at 4:48 PM, Empress1 said:

Unpopular opinion: I didn't like Rebecca's wedding dress. Never did. Not a good shape for her and I hated the bow on the back. Actually, I think most of her clothes are unflattering - she chooses boatnecks and crew necks a lot, which are generally unflattering for women with large busts (speaking from experience). The bridesmaids looked great though. Paula should always wear that color. There was a shot of her in front of a window and the sun made her hair look stunning.

 

 

Your opinion isn't unpopular with me. I agree completely.

[AnnaRose]

15 hours ago, STOPSHOUTING said:

...The intro of the new boss actually worked better than I thought it would at first, even though they had his character do a total 180 inside of less than 2 episodes -- but the whole everyone-falls-in-love-with-Rebecca-for-some-reason thing was just … no. They didn't even give him a reason to like or admire her (digging up dead bodies -- or, more accurately, having PAULA do it -- really?), just a peek at her bra and he's totally infatuated and sending private planes for her dad? I mean, he's a good looking, wealthy young professional ... He's never seen a girl in her bra before? I mean, they're nice, I'm sure, but ... c'mon!

Another small, slightly petty, thing that, I’m sorry, I just couldn’t let go, was when Paula calls Rebecca’s mother and she says to “buy a six 6” wedding dress … Now, I in no way, shape or form think that Rebecca, or actress Rachel Bloom, is fat, but a size 6? C’mon! I mean that completely unnecessary aside just reeked of personal vanity. She could lose 20 lbs and not be a size 6 — particularly not a designer dress size 6 — due solely to her bustiness. I mean, just, sheesh! Every time I saw the dress I was like, ‘Not a 6’ and ‘Why?’ Because it sends like 10,000,000,000,000 wrong messages that the show CLAIMS to be above. What’s wrong with being a 10 or 12? Or, heck, just cut the STUPID UNNECESSARY LINE ALTOGETHER and just say “buy your daughter the most expensive designer dress you can find,” no size mention needed. Arrrggghhh!! This is maybe just me, but it really bugged. Also, the dress was ugly (butt bow, Rebecca, really?).

Also, remember when season 1 Rebecca’s money problems were a plot point? Yeah, neither does the show. Because now she can just buy endless wedding dresses ($$$), decor and supplies ($$$$), buy a new house ($$$$$), give her dad money on a whim ($$$$$$) and bribe a bride to give up her wedding date ($$$$$$$) with zero consequences to her lifestyle. Like, none. Either money matters in this world or it doesn’t, writers, you can’t have it both ways.

...the stupid-retcon-she’s-a-Harvard arsonist (insert giant eye roll here).

I mean, it just makes NO SENSE. People would have known. People we’ve MET in Rebecca’s past would have said something, or hinted, or slammed her for it WAAAYY before now. And I don’t buy for one second that Rebecca herself was blocking it, simply from a time standpoint. She never wondered or questioned why AT LEAST (given trial, institution, et al) a YEAR of her life was just missing in her mind? The same gal who investigated exes and clients and clung like glue to childhood grudges? Umm. Don’t think so. Makes zero sense for the Rebecca we know.

It’s just not credible on any level, including the most basic of you-don’t-leave-a-mental-instituion-where-you’re-dribbling-on-yourself-after-burning-down-a-Harverd-prof’s-house-then-go-on-to-wild-success-at-Yale. Why would Yale even accept her? I mean, no one writes an essay compelling enough for them to overlook major mental instability followed by a felony, like, even solely from a liability standpoint and, yes, I know I’m overthinking this, but still … No.

...I just don't know how you thread the needle between serious, crippling mental health issues and fun, funny female bonding. Again, it just doesn't mesh. You're either too flip with the mental health care Rebecca so clearly, desperately needs (she's literally a danger to herself or others) or you can't integrate her into any light, funny story, because she's dealing with severe mental health problems. It's a problem I think the show has written itself into.

 

I totally agree with your post STOPSHOUTING, especially all of that above.  You read my mind about the wedding dress, the new boss, the arson retcon etc., so thanks for posting that.

I have mixed feelings about watching this new season, because I really don't care to see a mentally ill woman hell bent on revenge.  I haven't even yet decided whether I will bother recording the premiere, but I'm leaning toward bailing at this point.