S05.E10: Who Are You?

[romantic idiot]

8 hours ago, AyChihuahua said:

Yeah, if he were in private practice, that'd be fine. But he's being employed by Star City in an official capacity as a DA (or ADA, doesn't matter) and therefore, he has to work for them, not some rando military defendant. (He COULD get a leave of absence, maybe, but they'd need to say so.)

However, I have heard that his lawyering in this episode was not abysmal, so, improvement over LL, the WORST ATTORNEY IN THE WORLD?

Chase does have an in with the leader of the City's Government so getting a 'no objection' certificate shouldn't be too hard.

I'll confess I was bored.

[AyChihuahua]

2 hours ago, romantic idiot said:

Chase does have an in with the leader of the City's Government so getting a 'no objection' certificate shouldn't be too hard.

I'll confess I was bored.

I have no idea what a "no objection" certificate is, but there's no way a prosecutor could provide a criminal defense to a high-profile military defendant without taking a leave of absence or just quitting. The optics are very bad. Not only a criminal prosecutor providing a criminal defense, but doing so on the city's time, while being paid by the city? Nope. 

(I think, e.g., Missouri, has some weird rules that allow that kind of thing, which is part of the reason there have been so many problems there. They have part-time prosecutors in various municipalities. But big city elected DAs and their ADAs are different.)

[BkWurm1]

4 hours ago, looptab said:

Maybe I am imagining this, but I think we actually saw the Pic of Doom again in present times in one of the first episodes of the season? I think it was in a scene with Oliver and Lance, but I'm not sure.

We did see the same image in Lance's apartment but I'm pretty sure it wasn't supposed to be the one Oliver had since there was no wear.  I commenter about her getting her portrait done a Sears so she'd have lots of copies. 

But I could be forgetting something about the picture.  I haven't rewatched much of the show this year.

Edited January 27, 2017 by BkWurm1

[looptab]

Oh, okay, then maybe that's what I was thinking about.

Yeah I haven't done a single rewatch this year either. :/

Edited January 27, 2017 by looptab

[wonderwall]

Final thing this episode taught me...

Not to assume anything. I remember a lot of people upset about the prospect of Oliver throwing the party... Well... That didn't happen. 

[lemotomato]

Couple days late, but finally got around to rewatching the episode. Best episode since 411 for me, not surprising because that happened to be the last Felicity-centric episode where she was allowed to express feelings.

Everything about Felicity in the episode  was amazing. Loved that she immediately realized something was not right with “Laurel” and that she suggested the party (not forced to host it by cruel, selfish Oliver) and planned all sorts of tests. Loved that after discovering that BS was working with Prometheus she never faltered in her belief that BS was no good and was completely ruthless in dealing with her. This is the woman who turned her own father over to the authorities because he tried to steal from her. No one messes with Felicity Smoak and gets away with it.

Loved that the newbies not only followed Felicity’s orders over Oliver’s (because it was logical to not trust the stranger chick that had already attacked the lair) but also had her back and tried to cover for her when Oliver was yelling at them. And it was nice to see Rory asking her how she was doing.

Loved the punch. I know some people were uncomfortable with the idea, but I’d say that they did a really good job building up to it so that it wasn’t gratuitous or just fan service. The show had BS target Felicity for attack multiple times, verbally needle her (what was with the snark about Oliver dumping Felicity because she “wasn’t tall enough”?), and even gave her an “I’m gonna enjoy killing you!” line. She made it personal. If the final showdown had ended without Felicity punching BS, it would’ve been a disappointment.

I liked the Olicity scenes. Throughout most of the episode they were in conflict with each other-- Oliver kept refusing to listen to Felicity, and she kept circumventing him-- but they did eventually come to an understanding because of how well they knew each other. They argued, but in the end he went with her plan to lure out Prometheus, and she gave him a chance to redeem BS.

I liked the Chase and Digg scenes, although I really hope in the next episodes Digg will be more than just a damsel to be rescued by Chase’s smart legal knowledge. How refreshing was that, to have a lawyer on the show solve a problem on his own, rather than depend on vigilantes to procure evidence for him.

I didn’t feel sympathetic at all for Curtis and his pity party. So he’s pissed that him choosing to become a vigilante and lie to his husband actually had consequences? Boo fucking hoo. It was a really clumsy way to transition him back to the tech side, which was something that should have happened before the millionth time he got his ass kicked.

And finally, Oliver. Good god. There’s dumb, and then several levels below that is what he was in this episode. I know that his stupidity was necessary to keep the plot moving, but geez. I also felt that his naivete and idiotic need to believe the best in people despite all evidence that they are BAD are going to explain

Spoiler

his decisions and relationship with Susan.

Edited January 27, 2017 by lemotomato

[looptab]

5 minutes ago, lemotomato said:

it was nice to see Rory asking her how she was doing.

The internet is failing me because I can't find GIFs of these two. Everything is wrong. :(

[tangerine95]

I really feel like season 5 as it is really isn't a logical place to suddenly make Oliver trusting of people and believing in the best of them. Like he has no reason for that at all. I mean Andy betrayed them and that contributed to LL getting killed, then Evelyn betrayed them too and he ended up killing an innocent guy, LL turned out to be BS working with Prometheus and almost killed them too. So some distrust is warrented for sure. He just went from one extreme to another basically. I mean Felicity and Digg are supposed to be his examples for being a better person I suppose but it's not like they behave that way either. They actually use their brain when it somes to trusting people and judging their character. I hope they allow Oliver to have more balance with this too at some point because the way he is rn seems more plot driven than anything that actually makes sense. 

Edited January 27, 2017 by tangerine95

[lemotomato]

Oh, and I forgot to mention KC as BS: I'll disagree with most people here. I thought she was awful. The hair tossing! The lipstick, eyeshadow, piercing were all too much. She owes the show money to replace all the scenery she chewed up. I remember how Jessica De Gouw was panned for her acting, but her portrayal of Helena/Huntress was Meryl Streep-caliber compared to KC's attempt at badass villain. 

Edited January 27, 2017 by lemotomato

[CooperTV]

1 hour ago, lemotomato said:

 I thought she was awful. The hair tossing! The lipstick, eyeshadow, septum piercing were all too much.

She was terrible. I couldn't take her little girl voice when she were pretending to be Laurel seriously. And then there was the drunk walk at the warehouse, like BS was on drugs or something.

[lemotomato]

1 hour ago, tangerine95 said:

I really feel like season 5 as it is really isn't a logical place to suddenly make Oliver trusting of people and believing in the best of them. Like he has no reason for that at all. I mean Andy betrayed them and that contributed to LL getting killed, then Evelyn betrayed them too and he ended up killing an innocent guy, LL turned out to be BS working with Prometheus and almost killed them too. So some distrust is warrented for sure. He just went from one extreme to another basically. I mean Felicity and Digg are supposed to be his examples for being a better person I suppose but it's not like they behave that way either. They actually use their brain when it somes to trusting people and judging their character. I hope they allow Oliver to have more balance with this too at some point because the way he is rn seems more plot driven than anything that actually makes sense. 

Oliver wanting to find the good in BS made so little sense that the show made Felicity spell it out to the audience (and BS) why Oliver was doing what he was doing. And then we got to hear explain again when Oliver replayed the surveillance video. 

[TwistedandBored]

I just hope they continue writing Felicity this way. She was smart, capable, and a much needed leader of the layer during the episode. 

[statsgirl]

I can't remember the last time an Arrow episode got to four pages of comments, much less four pages in less the two days.

I loved this episode for all the reasons everyone has said.  This is the Arrow I want to watch.

On 2017-01-25 at 11:54 PM, calliope1975 said:

So BS's abilities can break glass and can physically move people, but they can just cover their ears and are fine? No broken eardrums; no hearing loss. Did I miss the team conversation about using earplugs? I know, I know, I'll just repeat to myself it's just a show; I should really just relax. 

There actually was a few seconds of Curtis explaining to WD why they couldn't just use earplugs and had to use a dampener but I didn't catch the explanation.

On 2017-01-26 at 2:18 AM, Chicago Redshirt said:

How do Black Siren or Prometheus know anything about Sara or the Legends of Tomorrow?

They've really been playing up the "Prometheus is Oliver's dark mirror" angle so I really hop they explain this beyond "he's been bugging the bunker".

On 2017-01-26 at 10:57 AM, SmallScreenDiva said:

BTW, did I miss something with the "Hey pumpkin" line? Did BS call Felicity pumpkin at some point? It seemed to have come out of nowhere. 

So, what was the point of Black Siren in this ep, other than to make Oliver an idiot again? Prometheus said something about her failing, but at what?

Felicity has trouble swearing.  Sara would have come right out and called her "bitch.

I think Black Siren was supposed to make Oliver suffer but I don't see how having Laurel come back from the dead would do that.

On 2017-01-26 at 1:39 PM, fromfeartohope said:

Chase:

He’s not my type, but DAMN, I think I might just be in love. It was just something about him, I can’t explain it. If someone can, please let me know.

I think brains and competence is are sexy as hell. (Felicity was kind of rocking' that too.)

On 2017-01-26 at 2:47 PM, SmallScreenDiva said:

I just realized what bugged me the most about BS, and it's not even the drunken walk. It's the bloody nose ring. All throughout the episode I kept thinking how someone should just pull it.

No person should wear a nose ring like that.  I kept thinking of a bull.

Edited January 28, 2017 by statsgirl

[BkWurm1]

3 hours ago, statsgirl said:

No person should wear a nose ring like that.  I kept thinking of a bull.

Well the abbreviation BS always makes me first think bullshit.

[blackwing]

10 hours ago, CooperTV said:

She was terrible. I couldn't take her little girl voice when she were pretending to be Laurel seriously. And then there was the drunk walk at the warehouse, like BS was on drugs or something.

I don't think that was a "drunk walk".  I think that was Katie Cassidy's attempt at a "slow sexy sultry model catwalk".  It failed.  Everything about her was awful.  She's a terrible actress and she was even more terrible trying to ham it up and pretend to play badass villain.  Horrible.  I hope this is the last we have seen of her.  

I see that they upgraded her special effects so now we actually see the sound waves.  It is better than what she used to do, which was gape open her mouth wide and then slowly arc back and forth like a sprinkler.   I don't watch Flash, so it appears that Black Siren is way more powerful than Laurel ever was and she is naturally superpowered instead of relying on a gadget?   Whatever.  Hope she is gone.

Katie Cassidy and Laurel have completely ruined the Black Canary concept for me.  So much that I already don't care for this New Black Canary.  The sound effect is the same, the visual is the same, and it grates.

[bijoux]

5 hours ago, statsgirl said:

 

There actually was a few seconds of Curtis explaining to WD why they couldn't just use earplugs and had to use a dampener but I didn't catch the explanation.

As I understood it, the earplugs were made to neutralize Laurel's cry, but BS's cry is on another (higher?) frequency, so they're not effective.

Who got lair clean up duty? It was back in order real quick this time.

[DigitalCount]

2 hours ago, blackwing said:

I don't watch Flash, so it appears that Black Siren is way more powerful than Laurel ever was and she is naturally superpowered instead of relying on a gadget?   Whatever.  Hope she is gone.

Yes, although I think we only now got the other half of her story in this episode. Rather than her just being a metahuman because comics, it appears that after Oliver went down with the Queen's Gambit, this Laurel (can we just say Dinah) moved to Central City instead of staying with her family. As a result, she was around when the inciting incident of the Flash occurred, so she was one of the many people affected by it.

[SmallScreenDiva]

12 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

Well the abbreviation BS always makes me first think bullshit.

Which is why I love using it ;) 

[tv echo]

Black Siren: "No, because on my world, you've been dead for 10 years now. I moved to Central City for a fresh start. That's where this happened, and from then, it was just one bad choice after another, and I guess once you let the darkness inside, it never comes out, and now I am trapped in a parallel dimension, telling my sob story to... the doppelganger of the man that - that I loved."

I guess we're supposed to believe - and the premise of a possible Black Siren redemption story and Oliver's belief in her - is that different circumstances led to E2 Laurel becoming a villain. E2 Oliver actually died.  Because of her heartbreak over losing the man she loved, E2 Laurel moved to Central City, got the metahuman power, and turned bad. 

Here's my problem with that theory - the circumstances weren't different during the relevant time period.  For five years, both E1 Laurel and E2 Laurel believed that Oliver was dead. But they reacted differently. Heartbreak didn't lead E1 Laurel to move to Central City for a fresh start. Instead, she stayed in Starling City and became a CNRI lawyer.  If they're the same, shouldn't the two Laurels react the same to the same heartbreak?

Unless they're saying that E2 Laurel didn't move to Central City until her Oliver was dead for 6 or 7 years (right before the Star Labs explosion)? But why would that make a difference? When we first saw E1 Laurel, Oliver had been 'dead' for five years, but she seemed to have accepted his death, had a good job with work friends, and was even dating Tommy.  

E2 Laurel is not the same as E1 Laurel. Therefore, she made different choices from the start.

Edited January 28, 2017 by tv echo

[Hiveminder]

11 minutes ago, tv echo said:

Black Siren: "No, because on my world, you've been dead for 10 years now. I moved to Central City for a fresh start. That's where this happened, and from then, it was just one bad choice after another, and I guess once you let the darkness inside, it never comes out, and now I am trapped in a parallel dimension, telling my sob story to... the doppelganger of the man that - that I loved."

I guess we're supposed to believe - and the premise of a possible Black Siren redemption story and Oliver's belief in her - is that different circumstances led to E2 Laurel becoming a villain. E2 Oliver actually died.  Because of her heartbreak over losing the man she loved, E2 Laurel moved to Central City, got the metahuman power, and turned bad. 

Here's my problem with that theory - the circumstances weren't different during the relevant time period.  For five years, both E1 Laurel and E2 Laurel believed that Oliver was dead. But they reacted differently. Heartbreak didn't lead E1 Laurel to move to Central City for a fresh start. Instead, she stayed in Starling City and became a CNRI lawyer.  If they're the same, shouldn't the two Laurels react the same to the same heartbreak?

Unless they're saying that E2 Laurel didn't move to Central City until her Oliver was dead for 6 or 7 years (right before the Star Labs explosion)? But why would that make a difference? When we first saw E1 Laurel, Oliver had been 'dead' for five years, but she seemed to have accepted his death, had a good job with work friends, and was even dating Tommy.  

E2 Laurel is not the same as E1 Laurel. Therefore, she made different choices from the start.

It's really impossible to say. We weren't given a lot of information. Other things could have been different as well. Maybe she moved to Central City right away and being all alone in a new city caused her to make bad choices even before the particle accelerator explosion. Maybe E-2 Laurel was just evil from the start. We can't tell. 

[lemotomato]

My problem with the story is that in the end, when Oliver is trying to appeal to her better nature, BS sneers "[Laurel] was never there." To me that implies her sob story was a lie and she was playing him the whole time. Which makes Oliver's decision to keep her at ARGUS even more stupid. 

[insomniadreams88]

We don't know what BS' relationship with Oliver was like before he died, right? Just that she loved him. E-2 Oliver could have been cheating on her too. And what about her family? Doesn't Oliver mention something about them being gone? Did she tell him that and I missed it? 

It makes more sense that she was manipulating him because she's all about her own survival than that she can actually be redeemed, based on what we saw in her Flash episode and this one. 

[Chaser]

The whole conversation with Felicity implies she was full of it. Oliver was the target so she gave him some 'whoa is me' sob story but everyone else got bitch to the face.

Though it did seem to be directed more at Felicity. Prometheus knows all so he probably told her Felicity wouldn't fall for it. Or Oliver had a thing with Felicity on E2 and that's why BS was pissed.

Or meta statement by the writers.

[BkWurm1]

19 minutes ago, lemotomato said:

My problem with the story is that in the end, when Oliver is trying to appeal to her better nature, BS sneers "[Laurel] was never there." To me that implies her sob story was a lie and she was playing him the whole time. Which makes Oliver's decision to keep her at ARGUS even more stupid. 

Here's the bit of dialogue:

"Don't do this.  There's no coming back for you; if you kill Felicity then you are killing that part of yourself that existed before you lost your family.  If you end this now, we can find that person again, together."

"She was never there."

Interestingly, BS is very calm when she say she was never there.  Just a small ironic smile/smirk and then she lets them have it. 

The dialogue is actually kind of a mess since what NotLaurel says is that person that existed before she lost her family was never there,  which technically is a logic fail since of course she existed as a person before her family was lost.  (Did she lose them by moving away?  Maybe without her to prop him up, Quentin falls into the bottle and her mom moves on with her life even if they were in the same city?)   

Naturally, it's understood that everyone is speaking in inference and the inference being that Oliver assumes she was a good person before she lost her family.  NotLaurel though, seems to be without any conflict when she assures him she was never the girl he implies she was.  

Someone either on the board or in a review quoted Maya Angelou "When someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time."  BS both showed and telled.  

Maybe the E2Laurel that existed before she moved to Central CIty wasn't a criminal or a murderer, but there's no reason to believe that she wasn't always the worst version of herself to start with.  For one thing, instead of fighting crime when she got her powers, she became a criminal and then a faithful minion to Zoom, happy to come and kill a hospital full of people with no hesitation.  

The only reason I could ever see BS reforming is to save her own hide, not out of any goodness in her heart.  

[Hiveminder]

1 hour ago, BkWurm1 said:

Here's the bit of dialogue:

"Don't do this.  There's no coming back for you; if you kill Felicity then you are killing that part of yourself that existed before you lost your family.  If you end this now, we can find that person again, together."

"She was never there."

Interestingly, BS is very calm when she say she was never there.  Just a small ironic smile/smirk and then she lets them have it. 

The dialogue is actually kind of a mess since what NotLaurel says is that person that existed before she lost her family was never there,  which technically is a logic fail since of course she existed as a person before her family was lost.  (Did she lose them by moving away?  Maybe without her to prop him up, Quentin falls into the bottle and her mom moves on with her life even if they were in the same city?)   

Naturally, it's understood that everyone is speaking in inference and the inference being that Oliver assumes she was a good person before she lost her family.  NotLaurel though, seems to be without any conflict when she assures him she was never the girl he implies she was.  

Someone either on the board or in a review quoted Maya Angelou "When someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time."  BS both showed and telled.  

Maybe the E2Laurel that existed before she moved to Central CIty wasn't a criminal or a murderer, but there's no reason to believe that she wasn't always the worst version of herself to start with.  For one thing, instead of fighting crime when she got her powers, she became a criminal and then a faithful minion to Zoom, happy to come and kill a hospital full of people with no hesitation.  

The only reason I could ever see BS reforming is to save her own hide, not out of any goodness in her heart.  

For all we know, E-2 Laurel was straight out of a really anti-Laurel Olicity fic, complete with dastardly plans to steal the Queen fortune and torrid affairs with Robert Queen and Malcolm Merlyn. 

Not that her backstory matters. I know I don't care why she's such a bitch. 

[insomniadreams88]

2 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

 The only reason I could ever see BS reforming is to save her own hide, not out of any goodness in her heart.  

That's why I could never see her working with the team. Or another team on another show. The BS we saw in 510 would turn on the team in a second if the villain they were fighting threatened her. I could see it now, "Work for me or I'll kill you." "Okay. [turns and screams at the team]" They'd have to keep that dampener on hand at all times and that would just be ridiculous. 

[LeighAn]

Yeah I read it as Black Siren was bullshitting with Oliver to appeal to his damsel in distress sensibilities. 

She saw he was an easy play and probably thought if she worked on him enough he'd eventually let her out .

However I would not be surprised in the event Black Siren does come back and if the writers intend to redeem her that they act like that story was true. 

[statsgirl]

What struck me was when BS told Felicity "Do have a sister? I hear he likes sisters."   So maybe on Earth 2 Oliver didn't take Sara on the boat trip and Laurel2 didn't have all the anger at him so she genuinely mourned him and her grief devastated her and like Helena, caused her to make bad decisions and get involved with the wrong people and that's when she went truly bad.  So the good Laurel is still there is only they can reach her.

Of course, if you're read James Fallon's The Psychopath Inside, you know it doesn't work like that but I wouldn't put it past them.

[BkWurm1]

3 hours ago, insomniadreams88 said:

That's why I could never see her working with the team. Or another team on another show. The BS we saw in 510 would turn on the team in a second if the villain they were fighting threatened her. I could see it now, "Work for me or I'll kill you." "Okay. [turns and screams at the team]" They'd have to keep that dampener on hand at all times and that would just be ridiculous. 

I don't enjoy KC's acting enough for her to do it, but the role in the hands of a different person could be a great one.  They would have to come up with a way to keep her in line, whether through carrot or stick, but the reluctant hero snarking on everything that reluctantly gets invested in the people and the mission is a storyline I've really enjoyed in the past, but I could never enjoy in with the existing casting.   

But I don't think I have to worry about that.

The thing that I keep being baffled by is how Prometheus could have been a threat to her.  Zoom made sense, but our big bad, not so much.  Once she was out of her cage, given her abilities, 1 non meta guy, no matter how skilled, could not have forced her to do anything.   

[GHScorpiosRule]

The thing is, the counterparts to these characters on E-2 weren't supposed to be the same as the ones on E-1. So BS (tm @BkWurm1) being this twisted evuhl goth wannabe could just be because she is a bad guy. Like Cisco, Ronnie, and Caitlin's counterparts. Barry's wasn't even the Flash; Joe was a bitter lounge singer, Iris a cop. And I believe Robert Queen was the arrow? (Don't quote me, I can't remember).

And I never though BS was being sincere-she was totally playing Oliver and manipulating him, which worked.

I'm not even sure why he continues to have these blinders when it comes to Laurel.

[statsgirl]

25 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

I'm not even sure why he continues to have these blinders when it comes to Laurel.

At a guess, guilt.  Oliver thinks everything is his fault.  (It's why Felicity is better for him than Laurel was -- Laurel just agreed with him.  Diggle also helps him keep perspective.)

He probably even thinks BS is evil because his Earth 2 version died and sent her into this spiral.

[Starfish35]

Quote

And I believe Robert Queen was the arrow?

Yes, on Earth-2 Robert lived instead of Oliver, and he was the Arrow.

Edited January 29, 2017 by Starfish35

[insomniadreams88]

Thinking about the Prometheus is another Oliver theories. If Prometheus is E-2 Oliver who somehow didn't die but became evil/fell through a breach/something (I don't think he is), then he would have been threatening to kill his ex, who was busy telling this Earth's Oliver her sob story about losing the man she loved, and he didn't bother to tell her, "oh, BTW, I'm alive." 

[Hiveminder]

6 minutes ago, insomniadreams88 said:

Thinking about the Prometheus is another Oliver theories. If Prometheus is E-2 Oliver who somehow didn't die but became evil/fell through a breach/something (I don't think he is), then he would have been threatening to kill his ex, who was busy telling this Earth's Oliver her sob story about losing the man she loved, and he didn't bother to tell her, "oh, BTW, I'm alive." 

LOL. That sounds exactly like something evil Oliver would do. 

Heck, that's something good Oliver would do. 

[Mellowyellow]

Maybe E2 Oliver ran off with E2 Felicity and faked his own death. I thought BS hated Felicity a bit more than your average villain in this ep!

[wonderwall]

2 hours ago, Mellowyellow said:

I thought BS hated Felicity a bit more than your average villain in this ep!

I thought this was so meta. Laurel fans tend to hate Felicity more so than any other average viewer... 

[LeighAn]

Yeah I felt this episode was very meta about Laurel and Felicity fans but I also don't know if that was intentional or if we just veiw it that way because we've bared witness to the bitterness between those two fandoms.

6 hours ago, statsgirl said:

At a guess, guilt.  Oliver thinks everything is his fault.  (It's why Felicity is better for him than Laurel was -- Laurel just agreed with him.  Diggle also helps him keep perspective.)

He probably even thinks BS is evil because his Earth 2 version died and sent her into this spiral.

Yep I think it's this guilt that also drives Oliver to put Laurel up on a pedestal quite literally this season because he never really appreciated her enough when she was alive. Which the show I think has done a reasonable job acknowledging and making clear ~ minus the few that think it's because he lurves her.

What I wish the show had acknowledged more was that other then the being cheated on Laurel wasn't this super amazing friend or support system to Oliver. Season 1-3 she was probably as crappy to him as he was particularly in season 1. 

Oliver sort of just Mirah Carey giffed her and forgot he knew her. Laurel was passive agressive and judgemental for the most part towards him and would constantly bait him into fights- probably because post season one that was the only way she could get Olivers acknowledgement.

They were just fairly toxic together. I think those last few episodes the writers had finally got the right balance between Oliver and Laurel as friends but then they ruined it by having Laurel admit she was still in love with Oliver which just made it look like she was playing the supportive friend to get back into his bed. 

[tv echo]

The Flash has shown that the E2 counterparts are not supposed to be the same as the E1 characters, but as usual, there's no consistency in the Arrowverse.  I believe the lesson of this episode is that circumstances influence who we become, but we can choose how they influence us ("poison or nectar")...

Oliver: "Someone once told me that a circumstance could make something poison or nectar. What they meant was that we get to choose what we are, we get to choose who we are, so tell me... Who are you?"

Assuming all else was the same, both Laurels originally planned to marry Oliver Queen.  However, Oliver's death on The Queen's Gambit led to both Laurels making a choice. E1 Laurel chose to stay in Starling City, near her alcoholic father, and help the less fortunate by becoming a CNRI lawyer (she chose to turn circumstance into nectar). E2 Laurel chose to move to Central City for a fresh start, away from her alcoholic father, and then when the Star Labs explosion occurred, chose to use her new metahuman power for evil (she chose to turn circumstance into poison). That indicates a fundamental difference in their characters at the start. 

Oliver's point was that E2 Laurel could choose again. But once again, she chose evil - she chose to try to kill Felicity - which was consistent with her character.  I assume that Oliver will try to get her to choose again in the future, but for good.  But unless something changes fundamentally (or is ret-conned), there's no reason to suppose that her choices would change fundamentally.

Also, I'm sure if they do write a Black Siren redemption story in the future, they'll probably add a lot of other different circumstances to show us it's wasn't poor Black Siren's fault that she became a villain in the first place.

Edited January 29, 2017 by tv echo

[Primal Slayer]

On 1/28/2017 at 11:56 AM, tv echo said:

Black Siren: "No, because on my world, you've been dead for 10 years now. I moved to Central City for a fresh start. That's where this happened, and from then, it was just one bad choice after another, and I guess once you let the darkness inside, it never comes out, and now I am trapped in a parallel dimension, telling my sob story to... the doppelganger of the man that - that I loved."

I guess we're supposed to believe - and the premise of a possible Black Siren redemption story and Oliver's belief in her - is that different circumstances led to E2 Laurel becoming a villain. E2 Oliver actually died.  Because of her heartbreak over losing the man she loved, E2 Laurel moved to Central City, got the metahuman power, and turned bad. 

Here's my problem with that theory - the circumstances weren't different during the relevant time period.  For five years, both E1 Laurel and E2 Laurel believed that Oliver was dead. But they reacted differently. Heartbreak didn't lead E1 Laurel to move to Central City for a fresh start. Instead, she stayed in Starling City and became a CNRI lawyer.  If they're the same, shouldn't the two Laurels react the same to the same heartbreak?

Unless they're saying that E2 Laurel didn't move to Central City until her Oliver was dead for 6 or 7 years (right before the Star Labs explosion)? But why would that make a difference? When we first saw E1 Laurel, Oliver had been 'dead' for five years, but she seemed to have accepted his death, had a good job with work friends, and was even dating Tommy.  

E2 Laurel is not the same as E1 Laurel. Therefore, she made different choices from the start.

All of the Flash characters were drastically different from their E1 counterparts. We don't know the full Siren story yet. Did Sara get on the boat (doesnt sound like it from her sisters comment about E1 Oliver). Did the Lance family all go their separate ways? Die?  Is Tommy a vigilante? Is Star City even still standing?

[insomniadreams88]

3 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

All of the Flash characters were drastically different from their E1 counterparts. We don't know the full Siren story yet. Did Sara get on the boat (doesnt sound like it from her sisters comment about E1 Oliver). Did the Lance family all go their separate ways? Die?  Is Tommy a vigilante? Is Star City even still standing?

Yeah that's the problem right now with BS. All we learned in 510 about her life for certain was she loved Oliver. For all we know, she could have chosen to just leave her family behind for CC after that. Maybe she was just in CC long enough to get her abilities. Maybe she killed her family (I doubt it, but the point is we don't know). 

Oliver is operating off the assumption that BS was just like Laurel because she loved her Earth's Oliver and then she turned evil so she can be redeemed. But we also don't even know if that's true, do we? She could be lying about that to manipulate him. For all we know, E-2 O/L were never together. Maybe they broke up before Oliver died. Maybe she cheated on him on their Earth. Maybe they were happy, but that doesn't excuse what she's doing now. 

[wonderwall]

We don't know everything about Black Siren yet... And hopefully we never will :)

[Primal Slayer]

We totally need more Siren, mainly because I don't love myself (since I know the chances of them doing her justice are slim to none). Gimmie those E2 flashbacks!

[lemotomato]

38 minutes ago, insomniadreams88 said:

Yeah that's the problem right now with BS. All we learned in 510 about her life for certain was she loved Oliver.

I disagree. I think everything in the story she told Oliver was made up based on what BS knew about LL to play on his guilt. She even knew about the sister-swapping, since she threw that jab at Felicity later. 

All we really know about BS is that she'll do anything to survive, and that she wanted to kill everyone on the team except Prometheus told her not to.

[LeighAn]

See I don't even buy that she was in love with Earth 2 Oliver. I think that whole story was just some bullshit she concocted to play on Olivers hero sensibilities because Ptonetheus had clearly studied her up on Oliver. 

Outside of that sob story to Oliver she was straight up unapologetic unfeeling villian. And the follow up scene with Felicity sort of reinforced that with Felicity saying she knows Black Sirens just playing on Olivers need for redemption.

 But I guess it could be read either way. 

Edited January 29, 2017 by LeighAn

[wonderwall]

I honestly don't know what the point of E2 flashbacks would be for Arrow. Not only for BS but for anyone... In the end it would amount to nothing because BS will never be a prominent character to the series. 

[Primal Slayer]

Just now, wonderwall said:

I honestly don't know what the point of E2 flashbacks would be for Arrow. Not only for BS but for anyone... In the end it would amount to nothing because BS will never be a prominent character to the series. 

Obviously if they bring back Siren, E2 Flashbacks would help flesh out her character and tell us what was fake and what was the truth. She probably will never be a prominent character but ill hold on to that 1% that she could be. 

[wonderwall]

Just now, Primal Slayer said:

Obviously if they bring back Siren, E2 Flashbacks would help flesh out her character and tell us what was fake and what was the truth. She probably will never be a prominent character but ill hold on to that 1% that she could be. 

Well I admire your hopefulness. 

[insomniadreams88]

They should just reach out to Harry on E-2 and find out if he knows anything/can look anything up. Would just take one conversation to clarify what's true and what's not. 

[lemotomato]

E2 has never been mentioned on Arrow until 510, and even then it was just to explain the existence of BS. BS is a character that originated on Flash and has been proven to not be LL. She's essentially a new character that's played by KC. I don't understand why the Arrow audience-- aside from KC fans--  should be expected to have any investment or interest in her or her backstory.

Edited January 29, 2017 by lemotomato

[Midnight Lullaby]

I think one episode to meet the E2 counterparts of the Arrow characters could be fun, but it's more a Flash thing IMO. They could make it happen in the crossover but after seeing BS on Arrow once I've had enough, I don't think there's a point to bring her back. If they decide to do it though at least give KC decent shoes this time so she won't move like a baby deer learning to walk.