Star Wars: The Last Jedi (2017)

[benteen]

Perhaps that's what RJ was doing but to me, he diminished them as characters and made the audience less eager to see their continuing adventures.  For whatever his flaws, JJ knew how to use these three characters.

Edited April 2, 2018 by benteen

[Crs97]

What I have realized is that I am done with Star Wars after The Last Jedi.  My kids are still very excited and wanting the DVD and talking about the next installments, and I feel . . . nothing.  I will drop them off or have hubby take them, but I will find something better to do for those hours.  It’s not bitterness or disgruntlement; I just have no further interest in the remaining characters or the storyline.  That makes me a little sad.

[stealinghome]

7 hours ago, benteen said:

Perhaps that's what RJ was doing but to me, he diminished them as characters and made the audience less eager to see their continuing adventures.  For whatever his flaws, JJ knew how to use these three characters.

I agree with this. After TFA, I was very excited to see where Rey and to a lesser degree Finn went (I wasn't all that interested in Poe in TFA). Now I'm like, ehhhhh. In the third movie, Rey is going to defeat Kylo Ren...which we already knew she'd have to do after the first movie. She stagnated in TLJ. I'm less interested in her story because it got hijacked by Kylo Ren's/Luke's. Finn's journey from FO Deserter to Resistance True Believer across TFA and TLJ was at least consistent, but executed so poorly in terms of watchability that I kind of give him a big shrug too now. And Oscar Isaac has charisma to burn but Poe singlehandedly got like 90% of the Resistance killed so it's hard to get all excited about seeing him either.

After TFA, I was really excited to see TLJ in theaters and see where the story went. Now I'm like...I guess I'll watch the next one in theaters, I suppose. Honestly, Leia's story would have been the biggest draw for me in Ep 9, but....

[benteen]

Losing Leia's story is a real blow to Episode 9, no doubt about it.

[WritinMan]

On 4/2/2018 at 2:38 PM, Crs97 said:

What I have realized is that I am done with Star Wars after The Last Jedi.  My kids are still very excited and wanting the DVD and talking about the next installments, and I feel . . . nothing.  I will drop them off or have hubby take them, but I will find something better to do for those hours.  It’s not bitterness or disgruntlement; I just have no further interest in the remaining characters or the storyline.  That makes me a little sad.

I can understand this to a certain extent. While I can't say that I have no interest in the characters, I have a hard time getting behind them. I like Rey the most. I'm not sure about Finn. His story was terrible in TLJ and I hope Poe's story in Episode 9 evolves beyond him being argumentative and abrasive. He needs to grow up and be a leader. Hopefully we'll see that. Overall they are sadly lacking when compared to Leia/Luke/Han. Chewbacca is still around, but I expect he'll still get screwed story-wise.

When you consider all the new canon material (movies, books, comics), the only new character I've truly liked is Dr. Aphra. And I doubt we'll see her in a movie.

But I will still watch all the new movies. I am looking forward to Solo and Episode 9.

Edited April 3, 2018 by WritinMan
Added stuff!

[Athena]

Please keep it civil. People are free to disagree politely. Posters do not need to explain their opinions in depth.  If someone is being rude to you, please report it and not engage. Thank you. 

[VCRTracking]

7 hours ago, WritinMan said:

He needs to grow up and be a leader.

That's basically what happened at the end of TLJ.

My view on the characters is summed up by the quote: "If you can't handle me at my worst, you don't deserve me at my best,”

JJ Abrams did a great job casting and writing some terrific new characters that audiences embraced but in order for them to really develop they couldn't just stay the same lovable people.

In The Empire Strikes Back Luke, Han and Leia's go through some serious challenges and through it all most negative aspects were amplified, Luke was more whiny, Leia more bitchy and Han more arrogant. Then in Return of the Jedi, we get Luke becoming a mature hero, Leia shows her softer side, and Han is completely selfless. They have character growth through three movies.  To get them from A to B you can't just skip over the part where they're a little unlikable and went through some trauma.

[ICantDoThatDave]

Quote

My view on the characters is summed up by the quote: "If you can't handle me at my worst, you don't deserve me at my best,”

This isn't a dating app, though.  This is war.  People are dying.  If at your worst you get 90% of our allies killed, I don't care about your best.  I don't want you at all.

[SimoneS]

On 4/2/2018 at 10:10 PM, benteen said:

Losing Leia's story is a real blow to Episode 9, no doubt about it.

Crushing. They will have to make Luke the anchor for Rey and Finn in the Episode 9.

[VCRTracking]

3 hours ago, ICantDoThatDave said:

This isn't a dating app, though.  This is war.  People are dying.  If at your worst you get 90% of our allies killed, I don't care about your best.  I don't want you at all.

It's not even 90%. The First Order had already wiped them out most of them to a few hundred.  You're upset at all those deaths? Imagine how Poe was feeling when the Resistence fleet was being decimated! Most of their leadership was gone and Leia was in a coma. That's why he was emotional and irrational and risked it all on a crazy plan and a mutiny because Holdo wasn't telling him everything(which of course she had a right to do) It's a failing of a good person in a desperate situation not  "Oh he's just being a sexist, egotistical jerk".

[Cirien]

On ‎29‎/‎03‎/‎2018 at 4:17 PM, VCRTracking said:

It was still in production. He read the script. 

In Rey's vision in TFA she saw a herself as little girl on Jakku screaming "Come back!" to a departing. To me it's like she was seeing that memory for the first time. Like she had suppressed it. I think her telling herself that he parents we're going to come back was a way of coping with the truth that they just abandoned her.

Rian was right in that Rey finding out she was nobody was as devastating to her as finding out Vader was his father was to Luke in Empire. Also like that revelation, it's going to be endlessly debated by people until the next movie whether it's the truth or not. A lot of fans couldn't accept it either saying it didn't make sense to what was previously established.

But things change from script to screen. Rian wrote Phasma as having survived in the trash compactor of Starkiller Base for three weeks in his first draft.....before remembering that the planet had been blown up in TFA

As for your second point: again she always knew they were nobody. The question of "who?" was the audiences question. Her question was "where?" and "are they coming back?" Questions which were answered in TFA. 

Edited April 5, 2018 by Cirien

[Zuleikha]

It's a failing of a good person in a desperate situation not  "Oh he's just being a sexist, egotistical jerk".

Not really. He didn't like Holdo from the moment he saw her. He saw himself as entitled to her confidence, even though he had just been reduced in rank as punishment for breaking orders. He was an egotistical jerk. Everything he does in TLJ is about his need to be the hero, and he is literally guilty of everything he accused Holdo of. He gambles on a plan with a lot of ways to fail and a low probability of success. He keeps it a secret because he doesn't trust Holdo.

The only difference is that Holdo is authorized to have a need-to-know plan and to decide who is in the need to know. Poe is not.

 

As for your second point: again she always knew they were nobody. The question of "who?" was the audiences question. Her question was "where?" and "are they coming back?" Questions which were answered in TFA.

Exactly! And maybe this was less clear in the shooting script. Maybe the shooting script also originally expected a younger child actress to play young Rey or was unclear. But that is exactly why Johnson should not have made his choices based on the script alone (and why Kennedy shouldn't have let him).

[VCRTracking]

Edited April 13, 2018 by VCRTracking

[Luckylyn]

In Defense of The Last Jedi

[ulkis]

On 4/2/2018 at 9:25 PM, stealinghome said:

I agree with this. After TFA, I was very excited to see where Rey and to a lesser degree Finn went (I wasn't all that interested in Poe in TFA). Now I'm like, ehhhhh. In the third movie, Rey is going to defeat Kylo Ren...which we already knew she'd have to do after the first movie.

Yeah. I recently finally saw the film in its entirety, and the end came off less dark to me than how I thought it was gonna be from online reactions. I thought everyone was going to be moody and somber at the end but it seemed like everyone was just having an amiable chat on the Falcon. Rey just got back from a fight in which she mostly kicked everyone's ass and then was evenly matched with the bad guy. Luke died, but it's not like he was around before helping out anyway. It felt a lot less dark to me than the end of "Empire". Although I suppose the beginning of the next one will be pretty grim.

I suppose they could pull out a twist where Rey actually isn't able to defeat Kylo and Broom kid comes flying in and is the one to defeat him.

Edited June 7, 2018 by ulkis

[Crs97]

55 minutes ago, ulkis said:

I suppose they could pull out a twist where Rey actually isn't able to defeat Kylo and Broom kid comes flying in and is the one to defeat him.

And then introduces himself as Jake Skywalker.  That would be hilarious!

[ulkis]

I thought the film was a lot less stomping on Star Wars tropes than both fans and detractors claim. Rey is not a Skywalker? Yeah, but she still fell right into the "no, THIS being is the most powerful wizard ever" cliche.

The notion that the Jedi were flawed and shouldn't necessarily be brought back. That's not a new concept.

That said, I don't think movies had given the idea that the light side dies with no Jedi, but that they needed Jedi to fight the bad guy force wielders. But I don't know if Luke's line was supposed to be a meta one to the audience or just a mistaken notion Luke said only to Rey.

Luke becomes a grouch, but he still needs advice from Yoda all these years later. (And he got it from Yoda because that was the only original actor available. Now that's relying on nostalgia, because imo Obi-Wan or Anakin should have been used in that scene with one of the prequel actors. I think it would have been pulled off fine. Probably Obi-Wan would have been the better choice, because with Anakin it would just turn into, "well, hey, you fucked up, but still not as badly as I did.") 

I thought Rose was misguided for forcing people to stay. If they don't want to be there, then they probably wouldn't be all that much help anyway.

"Hey, sacred island, watch the language!" was one of my favorite lines. I wish we got more Luke and Leia. At first I thought maybe I was wanting too many fanfic moments, but hey, Rogue One and Solo are pretty much filmed fanfic so I'm back to thinking it's not so unreasonable to have wanted to see moments like Luke finding out Han died on screen.

I didn't really get Rey/Kylo. I get her thinking turning him would be the easiest way to win the war but I don't think there is enough to their relationship to give their final confrontation much emotional resonance (besides their chemistry). They brushed fingertips, woo. I think their final confrontation would have more emotional stakes if they were related or had been friends or in love in the first movie. 

Anyway, at the end of IX there should be an epilogue scroll that says "and the galaxy was relatively at peace for at least 50 years like goddamn it already." 

Edited June 9, 2018 by ulkis

[Joe]

2 hours ago, ulkis said:

The notion that the Jedi were flawed and shouldn't necessarily be brought back. That's not a new concept.

Anyway, at the end of IX there should be an epilogue scroll that says "and the galaxy was relatively at peace for at least 50 years like goddamn it already." 

I know it cropped up in KOTOR II, and I think a few other places. But is this the first time in the new canon?

And yes to your last point. I'd actually like to see the heroes of a new trilogy defend the Republic or whatever against the evil army instead of being forced down into the rebel spot. We've seen that twice so far, it's time for a new take.

[VCRTracking]

19 minutes ago, Joe said:

And yes to your last point. I'd actually like to see the heroes of a new trilogy defend the Republic or whatever against the evil army instead of being forced down into the rebel spot.

That's what happened in the prequels.

This is a great Twitter thread someone made a few months ago. Maybe it won't change negative opinions on the Canto Bight story or Poe and Holdo's but I hope people still give it a read.

 

I think the reason some people had such an incredibly negative reaction The Last Jedi is because the original Star Wars trilogy was a fairy tale for boys(and some girls). While a lot of Disney cartoons are fairy tales for girls(and some boys). Girls eventually outgrow them and come to realize real life is more complicated, full of disappointment and to not expect a happy ending. Star Wars fans though grow up still believing in the fairy tale of Star Wars even into middle age. That Luke's story of triumph can also be their story. The Last Jedi was about failure and learning from it but some fans just don't want to believe their hero could fail.

[ulkis]

7 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

I think the reason some people had such an incredibly negative reaction The Last Jedi is because the original Star Wars trilogy was a fairy tale for boys(and some girls). While a lot of Disney cartoons are fairy tales for girls(and some boys). Girls eventually outgrow them and come to realize real life is more complicated, full of disappointment and to not expect a happy ending. Star Wars fans though grow up still believing in the fairy tale of Star Wars even into middle age. That Luke's story of triumph can also be their story. The Last Jedi was about failure and learning from it but some fans just don't want to believe their hero could fail.

For some people, maybe. But there's a difference between not being able to believe their hero could fail and not wanting the story to be about the hero failing.

I can easily believe that two seconds after Return of the Jedi ended, an Ewok assassin appeared out of the woods and killed Han, Leia, Luke, Lando and Chewie. If the opening scrawl of the "The Force Awakens" opened with "It is a time of chaos, 30 years after the Rebellion Heroes were killed after the Battle of Endor by the rogue ewok Assassin FooFoo". I could believe it, I would just not like the way the story went.

Saying anyone who didn't like the Last Jedi because the hero failed is like saying anyone who liked it only liked it because they didn't really care about any of the characters so it didn't matter what the writers did with them.

Edited June 8, 2018 by ulkis

[Joe]

3 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

That's what happened in the prequels.

 

I know, but it doesn't quite feel like enough. Maybe it's because I've seen so little of the prequels, while I've seen the OT and Disney movies about a billion times.

Bryan Young is pretty good. I consider him the smartest Star Wars person I know of. Part of Full of Sith podcast, which is pretty positive about all SW things. As to his point, yeah. I noticed some of that on my own. However, while Canto Bight only runs for about 15 minutes, it kind of feels longer.

[Perfect Xero]

4 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

That's what happened in the prequels.

This is a great Twitter thread someone made a few months ago. Maybe it won't change negative opinions on the Canto Bight story or Poe and Holdo's but I hope people still give it a read.

 

I think the reason some people had such an incredibly negative reaction The Last Jedi is because the original Star Wars trilogy was a fairy tale for boys(and some girls). While a lot of Disney cartoons are fairy tales for girls(and some boys). Girls eventually outgrow them and come to realize real life is more complicated, full of disappointment and to not expect a happy ending. Star Wars fans though grow up still believing in the fairy tale of Star Wars even into middle age. That Luke's story of triumph can also be their story. The Last Jedi was about failure and learning from it but some fans just don't want to believe their hero could fail.

Or people can dislike creative choices made for fictional characters in an ongoing Space Fantasy series while also being more than aware that real life often sucks.

[VCRTracking]

3 hours ago, ulkis said:

For some people, maybe. But there's a difference between not being able to believe their hero could fail and not wanting the story to be about the hero failing.

I can easily believe that two seconds after Return of the Jedi ended, an Ewok assassin appeared out of the woods and killed Han, Leia, Luke, Lando and Chewie. If the opening scrawl of the "The Force Awakens" opened with "It is a time of chaos, 30 years after the Rebellion Heroes were killed after the Battle of Endor by a rogue ewok Assassin FooFoo". I could believe it, I would just not like the way the story went.

Saying anyone who didn't like the Last Jedi because the hero failed is like saying anyone who liked it only liked it because they didn't really care about any of the characters so it didn't matter what the writers did with them.

 

And if people just said "I don't like where the story went" I can understand and accept that. A lot of the fans who hate the movie aren't though. They're tweeting about how the movie is the writing and story are objectively terrible. If they say they didn't like the movie I'm not going to try to change their mind but if they're how certain plot doesn't make sense or characters were out of character then I will debate why it does and why they are. I'm just trying to understand this incredible level of vitriol by TLJ haters where you can't even defend the movie without being ripped to shreds on Twitter and the failure thing is the only thing I can come up with.

51 minutes ago, Perfect Xero said:

Or people can dislike creative choices made for fictional characters in an ongoing Space Fantasy series while also being more than aware that real life often sucks.

They can but some online can take it too far like bullying Kelly Marie Tran off instagram. Some people don't like her character, fine. I've seen some complaints about it here, but harassing actors is out of line and makes Star Wars fans in general look bad.

Edited June 8, 2018 by VCRTracking

[afterbite]

On 6/8/2018 at 1:48 AM, VCRTracking said:

They can but some online can take it too far like bullying Kelly Marie Tran off instagram. Some people don't like her character, fine. I've seen some complaints about it here, but harassing actors is out of line and makes Star Wars fans in general look bad.

I think you're talking about two different kinds of fans, though. From my read, there are fans of SW who say "I don't like this movie and this is why..." and they talk about themes, plot points, and characterization. That's what you see in this thread. The kind of fans who bullied Kelly Marie Tran off IG are the same ones that pop up on every single piece of media about SW and talk about 'SJWs' and claim the movies are propaganda led by some kind of man-hating, anti-white cabal that's forcing diversity down everyone's throat. The first kind are probably pretty open to differing opinions (though will likely balk if you try to tell them they just didn't understand x, y, or z, because chances are they did understand it and still don't like it for the reasons they listed), and seem pretty unlikely to harass anyone involved in the production. They might have harsh words about the production, but you can tell by the discourse that they are talking about what they see as story-telling failings. The second kind can't be reasoned with and will continue to stew in hatred no matter what comes. Conflating the motivations of the two groups doesn't strike me as helpful.

[VCRTracking]

26 minutes ago, afterbite said:

I think you're talking about two different kinds of fans, though. From my read, there are fans of SW who say "I don't like this movie and this is why..." and they talk about themes, plot points, and characterization. That's what you see in this thread. The kind of fans who bullied Kelly Marie Tran off IG are the same ones that pop up on every single piece of media about SW and talk about 'SJWs' and claim the movies are propaganda led by some kind of man-hating, anti-white cabal that's forcing diversity down everyone's throat. The first kind are probably pretty open to differing opinions (though will likely balk if you try to tell them they just didn't understand x, y, or z, because chances are they did understand it and still don't like it for the reasons they listed), and seem pretty unlikely to harass anyone involved in the production. They might have harsh words about the production, but you can tell by the discourse that they are talking about what they see as story-telling failings. The second kind can't be reasoned with and will continue to stew in hatred no matter what comes. Conflating the motivations of the two groups doesn't strike me as helpful.

I'm trying to not to conflate the two. I understand there are reasonable but passionate fans who are critical of TLJ but the anger from some of them make it hard to distinguish them from the people who rant "Rian Johnson should die!" and Kathleen Kennedy should be fired!" and blah, blah, blah.

Edited June 9, 2018 by VCRTracking

[ulkis]

It is frustrating. I know I'll be reading a review and I'll be agreeing and then they'll say something like "and they were trying to shove the political correctness down our throat!" and then I groan. As if the prequels weren't a criticism of the U.S. presidential administration at the time. Of course, I guess a lot of the people who hate the prequels hate the sequels too.

It's hard to seperate my disappointment in the way they chose to go from the actual quality of the movie. The subplots seem a bit much but that's the same for any Star Wars movie except for "A New Hope" and "Empire" and even in "Empire" the battle of Hoth goes on a bit too long for my taste. And pod-racing, anyone?

I have no idea whether I would know what was going on when Poe apparently got all the bombers killed and Holdo went into lightspeed into the other ship if I hadn't read it first. So, like I said, it's really hard for me to judge the quality of the movie on its own.

I do feel they could have cut out DJ completely, or at least his betrayal. And that's the design they came up with for Snoke's, I don't know, reception hall? Eh.

[Zuleikha]

Quote

I'm trying to not to conflate the two. I understand there are reasonable but passionate fans who are critical of TLJ but the anger from some of them make it hard to distinguish them from the people who rant "Rian Johnson should die!" and Kathleen Kennedy should be fired!" and blah, blah, blah.

I don't see what anger has to do with it. Are people making concrete critiques or are they ranting Rian Johnson should die? There's the distinction. 

Quote

I know it cropped up in KOTOR II, and I think a few other places. But is this the first time in the new canon?

One of my disappointments with TLJ is that I don't think it actually cropped up in TLJ either. Sure, Luke said the words. But then at the end of the movie, he had his big hero moment in his Jedi robes, he implicitly acknowledged Rey as a Jedi, and we see that Rey has the Jedi books. Since the prequels, the Star Wars universe has been doing this dance around acknowledging how flawed the Jedi actually are while always backing away at the last minute. TIMHO, TLJ was just more of the same that we saw in the prequels and in Clone Wars. I thought it wasted Rey/Luke's training scenes because it would have been fascinating to use them to really delve into critiques of the Jedi ways/discussions of alternative possibilities... or heck, let's just even try finally establishing what the heck Kylo Ren is as a Force user.

Quote

 

 

I didn't really get Rey/Kylo. I get her thinking turning him would be the easiest way to win the war but I don't think there is enough to their relationship to give their final confrontation much emotional resonance (besides their chemistry). They brushed fingertips, woo. I think their final confrontation would have more emotional stakes if they were related or had been friends or in love in the first movie.

Yep! So much this! If Rian Johnson hadn't been so interested in doing his own things and ignoring every plot thread Abrams left him, he could have seen what so many fans saw after TFA: that having Kylo Ren rescue a young Jedi apprentice Rey from the rampaging Knights of Ren would tie a lot of threads together. It would explain Rey's quick mastery of the Force, shortcut relationship building with her and Luke, and give her a real reason to consider that Kylo Ren may yet be redeemable.

Edited June 9, 2018 by Zuleikha
quote boxes hopelessly messed up

[ulkis]

On 6/8/2018 at 12:06 AM, Joe said:

I know, but it doesn't quite feel like enough. Maybe it's because I've seen so little of the prequels, while I've seen the OT and Disney movies about a billion times.

Well also they failed at defending the Republic, it collapsed. There hasn't been a film where they are defending the (not evil) government and while they still have some losses and setbacks manage to uphold it.

[Joe]

So a thought I had, one that I haven't seen elsewhere. Luke's story is similar to Anakin's. Boy from Tatooine, goes off to become Jedi and pilot. Has many adventures, is a real hero. But then makes a really bad decision, one he doubles down on. In the end, he comes good and dies. Not identical, but similar. Or am I thinking about it too hard?

[Captain Carrot]

On 6/9/2018 at 6:01 PM, Zuleikha said:

Sure, Luke said the words. But then at the end of the movie, he had his big hero moment in his Jedi robes, he implicitly acknowledged Rey as a Jedi, and we see that Rey has the Jedi books. Since the prequels, the Star Wars universe has been doing this dance around acknowledging how flawed the Jedi actually are while always backing away at the last minute.

I didn't see Luke fighting in Jedi robes as ignoring the flaws of the Jedi order (at the time of the prequels), but an acknowledgement that the Jedi were a force for good despite those flaws. As for the books, I think that Rey having them is an interesting idea. She can go back to the starting place for the order with the knowledge of how the original Jedi became corrupted. In a sense, Luke was the last of the old Jedi, and Rey is the start of the new Jedi. One that will, hopefully, not make the same mistakes.

[VCRTracking]

[VCRTracking]

From IGN.com:

Mark Hamill on the Weirdly Tragic Trajectory of Luke Skywalker

[VCRTracking]

Edited July 6, 2018 by VCRTracking

[WritinMan]

I watched this again on Netflix the other day. This would make the third viewing. Well, I tried to watch it again, but found myself fast-forwarding through several parts. It's such a dull slog of a movie to me. I felt the same about Episode II (which I still think is the worst Star Wars movie). I don't really like the new characters, and it just seems like a movie full of poor decisions and missed opportunities.

But I am not going to abandon Star Wars like so many others have claimed (and I don't believe half of them). I didn't after Episode II. I have not seen Solo yet, but still think it looks fun, and I still want to know how J.J. plans to wrap all this up.

[Perfect Xero]

1 hour ago, WritinMan said:

I watched this again on Netflix the other day. This would make the third viewing. Well, I tried to watch it again, but found myself fast-forwarding through several parts. It's such a dull slog of a movie to me. I felt the same about Episode II (which I still think is the worst Star Wars movie). I don't really like the new characters, and it just seems like a movie full of poor decisions and missed opportunities.

But I am not going to abandon Star Wars like so many others have claimed (and I don't believe half of them). I didn't after Episode II. I have not seen Solo yet, but still think it looks fun, and I still want to know how J.J. plans to wrap all this up.

I'm not going to be dramatic enough to claim that I'm done with Star Wars, but I haven't seen Solo yet either, it's not a boycott or anything, TLJ just left me with no excitement for anything Star Wars. I've seen every Star Wars film released in my lifetime in the theater (with the exception of the Clone Wars animated film), but when it comes to Solo I sort of shrug my shoulders and assume that I'll get around to seeing it sooner or later.

TLJ is the first Star Wars film that I haven't bought on BluRay/DVD shortly after that came out, it is the only Star Wars film that I've only watched once. I feel the same way about Episode IX, I'm not excited for its release or counting the days. I'm sure I'll see it at some point, but ... Eh?

I'm not even interested in watching Return of the Jedi anymore, because the entire ending rings false.

Because of TLJ Star Wars has become just another action franchise for me to rent the new film or watch on Netflix whenever I happen to be bored and don't have anything interesting on my DVR, or maybe something to see when it hits the dollar theater and I don't have anything better to do. I'm about as interested in the conclusion of this trilogy as I am in a conclusion to the Divergent series.

[VCRTracking]

I wish people who say they're done with Star Wars also mean they're done discussing it or arguing about it with people who still enjoy them.

[Joe]

11 minutes ago, VCRTracking said:

I wish people who say they're done with Star Wars also mean they're done discussing it or arguing about it with people who still enjoy them.

Stop liking things I don't like! Let me tell you why your enjoyment is wrong!* Yeah, I completely agree.

*Not directed at the people here, but the bozos on the wider internet.

[VCRTracking]

The Last Temptation of Skywalker: The “Blasphemy” of ‘Star Wars: The Last Jedi’ Illuminates a Martin Scorsese Masterpiece

[Joe]

While this is clearly not canon, it's better than nothing. The court martial of Poe Dameron, put on by actual JAGs and a US judge. Scroll down for the MP3. The whole thing is pretty good.

All right, the verdict was decided by fan vote. It's a stand in for a proper jury. And they invoke the memory of Order 66 without bringing up the biochips, which is sloppy work. However, he was found

Spoiler

guilty, and exiled to Rura Penthe, of all places!

[Perfect Xero]

1 hour ago, Joe said:

While this is clearly not canon, it's better than nothing. The court martial of Poe Dameron, put on by actual JAGs and a US judge. Scroll down for the MP3. The whole thing is pretty good.

All right, the verdict was decided by fan vote. It's a stand in for a proper jury. And they invoke the memory of Order 66 without bringing up the biochips, which is sloppy work. However, he was found

  Hide contents

guilty, and exiled to Rura Penthe, of all places!

Do any of them point out that The Resistance, as an illegal private military organization founded on the basis of not following stupid, suicidal orders, has no legal authority over Poe and therefore no power to court marshal him or punish him in any way?

[VCRTracking]

 Benicio Del Toro won't be back in Episode IX. Now it would be satisfying to me if his character got his comeuppance.

Edited July 29, 2018 by VCRTracking

[spaulding]

It's such a slog to watch this movie.  I keep forcing myself to watch it in 15 min increments.  Right now, I've only seen half of it.  

I was meh about Rey in the last movie. Now, I absolutely loathe her so far and actively rooting for Kylo Ren.

[Joe]

59 minutes ago, spaulding said:

I was meh about Rey in the last movie. Now, I absolutely loathe her so far and actively rooting for Kylo Ren.

Why?

[ursula]

.

Edited August 4, 2018 by ursula
double post

[ursula]

On 7/6/2018 at 6:36 PM, VCRTracking said:

I wish people who say they're done with Star Wars also mean they're done discussing it or arguing about it with people who still enjoy them.

Well the statements preceding yours weren't arguments, just people saying they didn't enjoy the movie. So this sounds like censoring. 

 

On 7/6/2018 at 6:51 PM, Joe said:

Stop liking things I don't like! Let me tell you why your enjoyment is wrong!* Yeah, I completely agree.

*Not directed at the people here, but the bozos on the wider internet.

Obviously I'm biased but the sense I get? It's less this and more ----

"I feel personally attacked because people don't like a movie that I like and have the Audacity to say so! Let me tell you why your inability to enjoy Star Wars is wrong! And if you still don't get it, then shut up."

 

I mean, guys, I loved Star Wars as much as the next person but it's not sacred Scripture, OK? As outrageous as it might sound to hear people say that they feel that  The Last Jedi was nonsensical, borderline offensive, and plain old boring and that it soured them off future Star Wars movies --- they are not being blasphemous. 

Edited August 4, 2018 by ursula

[supposebly]

So, I finally watched it and while I diligently avoided spoilers, I couldn't help but notice that there was some controversy. I'm not much of a Star Wars fan. I get why they are so important to many people but I can't help seeing all the problems the original films had, never even mind how terrible those prequel movies were. 

Having said that, I liked this one a lot. It kept me guessing, it surprised me, and I loved crusty old Luke Skywalker, the hermit who couldn't face his own shortcomings as master Jedi and Legend, his failure to his apprentice and the resulting deaths, and possibly even worst, the fact that he contemplated even for a moment, to kill his sister's son.

It helped that I watched Return of the Jedi right before this one to see the contrast to young Luke and the parallels between the final scene with Darth Vader and the scene with Ben before he stopped himself. I might be imagining but he looked particularly scary from young Ben's perspective.

Some pacing issues aside, I found it more interesting than TFA. The scenes between Rey and Ben, the scenes between Luke and everyone, just wonderful. It's nice to have decently written dialogue in those movies. These stories deserve writing that isn't so terribly clunky like in the first three. And the less said about the dialogue in the prequel movies the better.

I loved the little funny touches amongst all the drama, like Hugs, pardon, Hux almost killing Kylo Ren when he was lying on the ground, Luke tossing the light saber, admitting that Jakku is pretty much nowhere.

I skimmed most of this thread now and I think I haven't seen this opinion expressed yet: I'm not entirely sure Rey has completely closed the door on Ben/Keylo Ren. That last look didn't seem to be the end of it. That final connection was made by them since Snoke was dead. Unless that was Luke's final gift to them. The disappearing dice in Keylo Ren's hand seemed to indicate that. Or maybe it's my wishful thinking because the scenes between them were exceptional and I want more of that.

I think the way the story is going is that eventually the balance is supposed to be within one person, not just one person completely on the light or dark side. Ben bought into this old thinking and will pay for it. Rey has bought into it but may start to feel that she may combine light and dark side. Only then is balance actually possible. I think Luke's dismay at Rey simply diving in hinted at that.

Despite never being much of a fan of these movies although I liked them well enough, I admired Carrie Fisher ever since I saw her in Stephen Fry's documentary The Secret Life of the Manic Depressive talk about how she deals with being bipolar. So, every scene with Leia was precious to me. R.I.P.

Edited August 4, 2018 by supposebly

[Joe]

2 hours ago, ursula said:

Obviously I'm biased but the sense I get? It's less this and more ----

"I feel personally attacked because people don't like a movie that I like and have the Audacity to say so! Let me tell you why your inability to enjoy Star Wars is wrong! And if you still don't get it, then shut up."

I mean, guys, I loved Star Wars as much as the next person but it's not sacred Scripture, OK? As outrageous as it might sound to hear people say that they feel that  The Last Jedi was nonsensical, borderline offensive, and plain old boring and that it soured them off future Star Wars movies --- they are not being blasphemous. 

I see what you mean. And I don't love every bit of Star Wars. But to me it feels like people are slamming this for the wrong reasons. They're seeing things that just aren't there. So I try to say, 'No, that's not what happened. This other thing did.' It doesn't seem to make any difference, but I can't bring myself not to challenge them. If someone was all, 'Oh, yet another pale brunette heroine with an English accent' that's fair enough. But stuff like Rey being a Mary Sue, I see all the ways she's wonky and imperfect.

Also, it usually takes more than one installment to turn me off something. Yeah, I'm familiar with the last straw, but what about all the straws before that one? Were people complaining about those?

[VCRTracking]

5 hours ago, ursula said:

Well the statements preceding yours weren't arguments, just people saying they didn't enjoy the movie. So this sounds like censoring.

I'm talking about online in general, not this board but Twitter, message boards, Youtube.

5 hours ago, ursula said:

Obviously I'm biased but the sense I get? It's less this and more ----

"I feel personally attacked because people don't like a movie that I like and have the Audacity to say so! Let me tell you why your inability to enjoy Star Wars is wrong! And if you still don't get it, then shut up.

Well I do get attacked every time I mention I like The Last Jedi and get people telling me I'm not a real Star Wars fan and giving reasons I didn't ask for of how it ruined Star Wars why it's the "worst movie EVER!".

5 hours ago, ursula said:

I mean, guys, I loved Star Wars as much as the next person but it's not sacred Scripture, OK? As outrageous as it might sound to hear people say that they feel that  The Last Jedi was nonsensical, borderline offensive, and plain old boring and that it soured them off future Star Wars movies --- they are not being blasphemous. 

I don't think they're blasphemous either. The problem is I see a lot of fans who hate the movie do seem to treat Star Wars like scripture and acting like the movie and people who like it are blasphemous. Also that

Also if you said "It didn't make sense to me, I was offended by it and I was bored". I can't argue against a subjective opinion like that, but "The Last Jedi nonsensical, borderline offensive, and plain old boring" is a debatable statement!

I liked in TLJ seeing Poe not perfect and make mistakes and giving Kylo Ren some humanity(not sympathy as people have accused the movie of). I think the latter is important because if he was just completely an irredeemable monster then the way Han, Luke and Leia's feelings about him invalid. It would be like "Well what could they do?" And it also lets Snoke off because Kylo was a bad seed anyway.

[Amtosbm]

I came back on the thread to see if anyone else was also excited about the cast being announced this week and knowing we are going to get Force Ghost Luke.  I wonder if this would have happened if Carrie hadn't died, I am thinking yes but I bet his part is now bigger. I am sure he will be haunting Ben/Kylo, but Rey getting a visit/some help might happen as well.

As to The Last Jedi - I still think its a mixed bag and I understand the complaints but also understand why some people really enjoyed it. As mentioned it was nice having dialogue that actually felt like it was supposed to mean something.  I really liked some parts of it, the attempt to show that Kylo Ren still had some humanity there, to emphasis Rey's continued impulsiveness and youth, to show that Finn has found his calling. I am still not happy Luke turned into a grumpy old hermit but then I guess that is what Ben Kenobi was somewhat as well. So yes -  A Skywalker turns to the Darkside, a Jedi fails his padawan, what's happened once will happen again seemed to be one of the themes of the movie.

It just makes me wonder what is going to happen in the last movie. Because truly Star Wars is about the tragedy of Anakin Skywalker. Or what should feel like his tragic story. Unfortunately the prequels were so poorly done in that regard I really didn't feel sorry for him and I should have. Here is a kid, born into slavery, told he has a great destiny but loses his mentor, loses his mother, no doubt feels overwhelmed with what he is told he is, and falls in love with a woman he is told he cannot have. He gives into fear and that causes him to lose everything - like literally everything (even his own body) but the power to terrify and destroy. He may make an awesome villian but his backstory should have made me more sorry to see it happen. I don't really blame the actors for that I blame the direction more and the stilted writing. Where I am going with this is - what is the point if Kylo Ren ends up the same way as his grandfather?  Apparently the Cosmic Force created Anakin but to what end?  Just to have the Skywalkers screw up every time and create misery around the galaxy?  I think the point of The Last Jedi was to show that Kylo, as the last Skywalker is the last chance to fulfill whatever the hell it is that Anakin was supposed to. And he can't do that if he is complete monster at the end of it. If he is and Rey ends up having to kill him I am honestly not sure what the whole point of this trilogy was.  Don't let fear control you?

I think part of Rian's problem was he really wanted to work on Kylo Ren as a character and the other characters just felt like they got tacked on. I think anyone who was a fan of Finn or Poe was probably pissed about that. Finn's arc dragged on (boringly in my opinion) and Poe was an cocky asshole. Meanwhile violent man-child Ren is given a showcase to entice the herione into caring about him. I am sure it does grate. But like I said he is the last Skywalker (which I hated that this was Leia's and Han's only child) and the films are about his family's journey. I honestly think he's an arrogant, volatile, selfish mess but its clear he, like Anakin was overwhelmed by what he considered his destiny and was failed by those around him and turned to the Darkside as some type of rebellion. Its obviously though that he hasn't got the fortitude to totally embrace it. Just as the death of a woman drove Anakin towards nihilism I think a woman will draw Ren out of it. He seems to above all want someone to want him for him, not use him for power while secretly finding him pathetic. How J.J is going to accomplish this I have no idea. He is basically a war criminal and I have no idea what he could do to even come close to making up for the horrific things he has done.  I think there are going to be unhappy people no matter what.

 

Oh and I am excited about Keri Russell. I think she'll be with the Resistance but I could be wrong. It will be so great to see Lando again as well. I hope BDW says healthy enough to complete his shot.

[Joe]

I wonder if Keri Russel will be a villain. Notice that Gwendoline Christie isn't back for ep IX. Out of the four First Order characters we know, Snoke is dead and Phasma might be. While the Resistance has Chewie, Rey, Finn, Poe, Rose, C3PO, kind of Leia, maybe Luke and Lando. There's room for a villainess. What I would find interesting, what if Ren fathers a child? I know Lucasfilm are talking about the end of the Skywalker story, but I don't believe that. The end of this chapter, sure. But in 10 or 15 years... It would be good to leave a couple of plot hooks to return to later on.