S12.E08: Lotus

[Diane]

THE CHASE CONTINUES – Lucifer’s search for power and influence in a vessel lands him in the White House. The President of The United States (guest star David Chisum) unknowingly makes a deal with the devil, leading Sam (Jared Padalecki), Dean (Jensen Ackles), Castiel (Misha Collins), Crowley (Mark A. Sheppard) and Rowena (guest star Ruth Connell) to band together to fight the Dark Lord. Writer: Brad Buckner and Eugenie Ross-Leming. Director: Phil Sgriccia

[bethy]

19 minutes ago, Diane said:

Writer: Brad Buckner and Eugenie Ross-Leming.

Sigh.

[Diane]

Just now, bethy said:

Sigh.

Yep!

[catrox14]

Given my level of cynicism towards these writers, I'm feeling this today:

 

and in the interests of those less cynical I give you :

Edited December 8, 2016 by catrox14

[Mick Lady]

You go catrox!

[pixelcat]

I think this will be the first one where I read the comments before watching the episode...

[MysteryGuest]

2 hours ago, pixelcat said:

I think this will be the first one where I read the comments before watching the episode...

I wish I'd done that.  Lucifer is bad enough, but now we have Lucifer's spawn to contend with?  Seriously???  I just can't.

This was supposed to be an opportunity for the show to go back to it's roots.  We've watched Sam and Dean hunt everything for 12 years, and along come the BMOL to show us just how lame they are at their job.  And now they're arrested for attempted assassination of the president?  The writing is off the charts bad right now, IMO.  What I wouldn't give for a good Wending episode right about now.  They're making this show almost unwatchable.

And I have a bone to pick with the writers about Dean's portrayal.  He's not an unfeeling ass, and I hated them making him say "knocked up".  It really bothered me.

There were a few moments I didn't hate, but this one was all over the map.  I have no clue what the plan is for this season, and I don't think the writers do either.

[ae2]

Well, that was... weird. I don't know that it was good. Or bad. The pacing was a little off. The characterization of the president and his staff and the secret service felt so small. It was weird.

I can't begin to express how indifferent I am to Sam and Dean being captured. They could have just... snuck out with Castiel and the woman.

And Luci's not really gone right? He just vaped down the vent? Dean seemed so sure though.

Best part:

Crowley's mom: I'm a witch. He's an Angel.

Crowley: And I'm the King of Hell.

Woman: Oh, God.

Castiel: No, he left.

[Morrigan2575]

I have to be honest but, I thought the first 30 minutes was a bit slow. 

I wasn't really sure what to think about Lucifer being President but, I really like the setup with I'm guessing it's the Mega Anti-Christ?

I was a little unsure about the Egg Bomb but it seems like it really worked and Lucifer is back in his cage.  Was that Nick/Mark P at the end? It looked like him as Lucifer was going bye bye.

I wasn't sure why Kelly had to escape but the boys stayed with the President. Plot wise I get it (now) but, I'm not sure of the In Show reason.

Well the boys finally metch Mr Ketch, he's a dick, can we kill him now?

I did get 3 actual laughs out of this episode

Crowley exploding Gold Digger Dude and, Rowenna's reaction

Dean's "I didn't even know he was dating" after finding out Lucifer was going to be a daddy

Dean's reaction to the Grenade Launcher and Sam just putting his hand up like, enough with that stupid grenade launcher!

Just now, ae2 said:

Best part:

Crowley's mom: I'm a witch. He's an Angel.

Crowley: And I'm the King of Hell.

Woman: Oh, God.

Castiel: No, he left.

That was really funny

[MysteryGuest]

Just now, ae2 said:

Best part:

Crowley's mom: I'm a witch. He's an Angel.

Crowley: And I'm the King of Hell.

Woman: Oh, God.

Castiel: No, he left.

Yes, like I said, there were moments that were good, but most of it was just bizarre.  And I completely agree that Sam and Dean had absolutely no reason to stick around once they knew the president was alive.  It was stupid of them, and they're not stupid...except when the writers want them to be.  I so hate that.

[ae2]

Could it all have been a Lucifer plot to throw the Scooby gang off his trail for awhile?

He really wants that baby.

[catrox14]

This was terrible.

[Jediknight]

Sam and Dean: "Hey, let's stand over the unconscious body of the President, and his girlfriend isn't there, what could possibly go wrong?  And if the Secret Service breaks in, we'll say we were checking on him, they'll believe it and not find it suspicious."

Freaking dumbasses, and they believed Mr Ketch.  Couldn't they have given Sam and Dean at least some common sense?

Loved Crowley and Rowena together, that was awful sweet of Crowley.  Speaking of them, why the butt were they not there with Crowley and Kelly?

[Boopsahoy]

I have a feeling that Mr. Ketch is driving the cab to get the girl to clean up after the Winchesters.

1 minute ago, Jediknight said:

Freaking dumbasses, and they believed Mr Ketch

I'm confused? How did he trick them?

[Pete Martell]

I only watched the last 10-15 minutes but I thought Sam and Dean being arrested and sent away was a surprisingly nifty cliffhanger for a midseason finale - obviously they will get out, as otherwise the show would end, but it's something they haven't had to really deal with in a very long time and it's something much worse than what they had to deal with in the Henrickson era as he was a principled man.

I had to laugh at the show dancing around the abortion topic with, of course, Lucifer's baby. And of course she can't do it, and she will likely be killed at "birth." The shot of Cas and her quietly sneaking out of the hotel really made me laugh for some reason. 

The President was played by David Chisum, whom I remember from One Life to Live about 10 years ago, where he had little to do other than stalk a boring recast of Marty and show off his great upper body. It's nice to see him again at least.

Was the President taken over by Lucifer at the end? I couldn't tell. 

Edited December 9, 2016 by Pete Martell

[indeed]

So, Cas can do a Jedi mind trick on one guy to make them all sit in the cars while everything is going on, but he can't stick around to do it again when they come to their senses and check on the President?!  So dumb.

What will happen to Sam and Dean now???  Oh, the suspense is killing me.  Not.

[MysteryGuest]

I could deal with Sam and Dean being arrested, and by itself, that might actually be interesting.  We've talked about the fact that they'd be bound to attract the attention of the police, etc., with the lives they lead, so that actually makes sense.  But the rest of it was just bad.

[catrox14]

If Cas can do the Jedi mind trick why didn't he do it before now???

I fucking hate these writers

1 minute ago, MysteryGuest said:

I could deal with Sam and Dean being arrested, and by itself, that might actually be interesting.  We've talked about the fact that they'd be bound to attract the attention of the police, etc., with the lives they lead, so that actually makes sense.  But the rest of it was just bad.

It would make sense if they weren't dumbasses to get captured. So FUCKING STUPID.

[auntvi]

It was almost as if it was an episode of a different show. Satan is the star and Sam & Dean are supporting characters.

[MysteryGuest]

The writers screw with Cas' character the most, I think.  He is a mere shadow of his former self.  He just sits there in the restaurant while that woman calmly walks behind him and out the door.  He senses nothing?  He used to be fierce and now he's a punchline, even to the BMOL.  It's just depressing.

[catrox14]

Just now, auntvi said:

It was almost as if it was an episode of a different show. Satan is the star and Sam & Dean are supporting characters.

Yup. This was like a Bloodlines thing.

[OrigamiNightmare]

Isn't Cas able to read minds, he did when he first showed up, he read Dean's mind "... you don't deserve to be saved ..."?

[Pete Martell]

9 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

The writers screw with Cas' character the most, I think.  He is a mere shadow of his former self.  He just sits there in the restaurant while that woman calmly walks behind him and out the door.  He senses nothing?  He used to be fierce and now he's a punchline, even to the BMOL.  It's just depressing.

He's been like this since season 5. I don't watch every episode now so maybe it's gotten even worse, but to me it's mostly just all over the place, generally nothing great, and then sometimes Misha gets a good script. 

Edited December 9, 2016 by Pete Martell

[AwesomO4000]

I'm not sure what I think about this.

Why didn't Castiel put Kelly someplace safe then go back and get Sam and Dean? Why didn't Sam or Dean pray to Castel to come get them? I'm not going to say that what comes next might not be interesting - since I agree with @Pete Martell that it was an interesting twist, but I think I'm going to need some kind of explanation for why they got nabbed like that.

It appears from the previews that:

Spoiler

Sam and Dean get stuck locked away for a while...

So I'm going to wonder if there's not more to these guys than meets the eye and/or that

Spoiler

there's something supernatural about those prison cells that Castiel can't find them.

If they somehow tie all that into everything else, including the British Men of Letters, than I'm going to be impressed... I think.

15 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

We've watched Sam and Dean hunt everything for 12 years, and along come the BMOL to show us just how lame they are at their job.  

And yet for all of their toys, the British Men of Letters had nothing to do with saving the world before now. I also am not convinced that these so called "weapons" aren't coming with a price somehow. This Mr. Ketch seemed so reasonable here, yet we know that he blew away a young girl, so I'm thinking there will be something more here.

And I mean of course Mr. Ketch wouldn't have had as much trouble with the secret service guys. He probably would've just shot them. It's not as easy when you're trying to escape while not inflicting damage. And Castiel would've been able to take care of things just fine before flashy Mr. Ketch came along.

Yeah, I don't trust him or his "toys" at all.

19 minutes ago, ae2 said:

Best part:

Crowley's mom: I'm a witch. He's an Angel.

Crowley: And I'm the King of Hell.

Woman: Oh, God.

Castiel: No, he left.

I also really liked Sam's "Not helping" and "Still not helping."

I guess ultimately how I feel about this will depend on where the story goes from here. I actually wouldn't mind a Lucifer's spawn story, I don't think. Especially if they bring back Jesse to help in the fight.

3 minutes ago, OrigamiNightmare said:

Isn't Cas able to read minds,

Yes, he read Mr. Ketch's mind.

But if you are referring to Kelly - I think she has some supernatural protection. My guess is that Lucifer's spawn is going to be providing her some means of protection while he - or she* - is growing inside of her.

* and that might be interesting - or maybe even twins. A he and a she.

[MysteryGuest]

I'm not sure whether Lucifer went into the egg-shaped thingy, or down into the air vent?  It looked like he was going both places.  I'm sure he's not gone for good, because we couldn't be that lucky.  

[Pixel]

It made no sense to me that the guys didn't tell Kelly to say the President collapsed and then disappear. They could easily have come back and found her later to deal with the hellspawn. If angel radio knew about the conception I'm sure it could track her later. There was no reason for the boys to get arrested like sitting ducks. 

[MysteryGuest]

I think the show has truly lost it's way, and that makes me sad.  They had such potential to start over after the Chuck fiasco, and so far, they've squandered it.  I'm not interested in watching the Lucifer show.  If that's all they can come up with, I'm not sure I'll be able to see this to the end.  It's too depressing to watch.

[Commando Cody]

While watching this episode, I felt like we have finally reached the point where the writers have no plan and they are making it up as they go along. 

This is how Grimm bit it. 

[MysteryGuest]

What's so frustrating is that they had the basics to make this an interesting season.  Mary's return, the BMOL, etc., could all have pretty simply been made into an interesting story arc.  I'm absolutely no writer, but I think even I could have taken that foundation and built something entertaining out of it, without the Lucifer gimmick, and without bastardizing the characters that we as fans have such affection for.  That's the worst part of this.  This season should have been a no-brainer.  They were given a do-over and so far, they've completely fucked it up.  It's maddening.

[Ninamags]

What show did I just watch? Another episode that didn't feel like our show at all. ?

The begining part was super creepy.

Where did Lucifer go though?

it does seem he went down the ventilation shaft. Was he supposed to go into the snitch? 

 I liked Mr Ketch. No-nonsense, practical. 

[Boopsahoy]

2 minutes ago, Ninamags said:

it does seem he went down the ventilation shaft. Was he supposed to go into the snitch

I thought that was to show he was going down into hell-especially since Dean seemed so sure...

[bmoore4026]

1 hour ago, Pete Martell said:

I only watched the last 10-15 minutes but I thought Sam and Dean being arrested and sent away was a surprisingly nifty cliffhanger for a midseason finale -

 

My hope is that, when they return, it opens like this:

[Binns]

1 hour ago, auntvi said:

It was almost as if it was an episode of a different show. Satan is the star and Sam & Dean are supporting characters.

Yeah, I kinda had this feeling too. Lots of random stuff sort of jammed together. And usually I'm too dense to pick up immediately on things that make no sense from a plot point of view (like I don't think too deeply about it as I'm watching the first time) but oh my heck. What possible reason could there have been for the boys to stay behind with the President? The answer is none. None reason exists. Castiel said he would be fine and wouldn't remember  a thing. Maybe you should ALL vamoose. 

[catrox14]

As always, TippiTV nails it. LOL

http://tippitv.tumblr.com/post/154233409007/tonights-climactic-supernatural-scene

 

[Binns]

I think the show is suffering from too many new positions- new showrunner, new writers. The season had a lot of potential and I've enjoyed a fair few of the episodes. I liked parts of tonight (I think Lucifer is back in the cage and I like how they wrapped that up while leaving it open for him to come back)(but I don't really want him back). I liked the nephilim plot...that could be interesting. And of course she isn't going to do anything about it. She's probably already being controlled by it. 

But my point is..I've liked pieces of the season so far but it really lacks cohesiveness and the mischaracterizations are startling in season 12. We know these boys inside and out- the new writers should have done us the courtesy of trying to learn more about them before writing them. 

[catrox14]

The best thing about the episode was the grenade launcher conversation.

Why didn't Cas just get out of the car to smite the Feebs which really would have been the Secret Service anyway.

"What a load of crap it all is" -demon!Dean.

ETA: Also, noticed the chick with Cas' old style trenchcoat. Annoying.

Edited December 9, 2016 by catrox14

[7kstar]

1 hour ago, ae2 said:

Best part:

Crowley's mom: I'm a witch. He's an Angel.

Crowley: And I'm the King of Hell.

Woman: Oh, God.

Castiel: No, he left.

IA it was funny seeing them trying to explain all the things they know to the outsiders.  Sam's that's not helping worked.

I liked them getting pulled over because that doesn't happen often but the fact that Cas is useless...not a fan.  I liked Dean being excited about the grenade launcher  and Sam shooting him down but the boys losing a fight once again for a plot twist...mix bag for me.  Part because I liked the music they used to introduce Ketch, and so far the character could be interesting but hated that neither boys were strong enough to fight it on their own.  I mean Dean took on 3 demons before he got the mark so I wish their fighting skills didn't just disappear because the plot needs it to.

I watched the last half first and well that did help my viewing.  The boys being taken away in handcuffs might be fun if the boys had a reason for them to be caught.

So a mix bag for me.  I thought Lucifer was creepy in a good way a few times...but over used. 

I thought the ending of Lucifer leaving was confusing and very unclear.  A few good moments but plenty of bad too.  I guess in some ways not bad considering who wrote it. 

Hard to direct when the script is weak too.  :)

[catrox14]

ETAA: Why the fuck didn't Crowley teleport the boys out of there? Gods what a stupid ass plot contrivance. This time it was the Dumb!Winchesters. WTF SHOW. STOP IT!

[Pete Martell]

3 minutes ago, Binns said:

But my point is..I've liked pieces of the season so far but it really lacks cohesiveness and the mischaracterizations are startling in season 12. We know these boys inside and out- the new writers should have done us the courtesy of trying to learn more about them before writing them. 

One of the problems with this many seasons and so many stories where viewers have to fill in the blanks for actions and reactions is that it makes it much harder work to figure out characterization. I don't envy a new writer who has to figure out Sam, for instance. 

[ahrtee]

1 hour ago, auntvi said:

It was almost as if it was an episode of a different show. Satan is the star and Sam & Dean are supporting characters.

It's been that way for the last few eps, I think.  The action/plot is driven by the guest star and supported by Cas and Crowley, and Sam and Dean just show up for exposition, to exchange meaningful looks, and *sometimes* to fight.  I actually went back and counted how many scenes the boys were in tonight, and it was only about a third of the total, and some of those were just reactions, jokes or exposition and lasted just a minute or two.  I think Asa Fox also followed that pattern, but the supporting characters were more interesting, and they at least gave the boys something to do (emotional and/or heroic) so they didn't seem just like semi-stupid bystanders.  

 

1 hour ago, Ninamags said:

Where did Lucifer go though?

it does seem he went down the ventilation shaft. Was he supposed to go into the snitch? 

I think he was headed for the snitch but bypassed and at least part went down the drain (sorry, vent).  Dean couldn't see it, because Sam was (a) down on  the floor and (b) half-hidden by a corner (or furniture?)  To me, Sam looked kind of puzzled/worried, but then decided to go along with Dean's optimism.   So I'm guessing he's going to show up again.  (As an aside:  I didn't see what happened to the egg when they were captured.  Wasn't Rowena supposed to use it to put  Luci back in the cage?  Because I thought the egg was just to exorcise his "essence," not put it in the cage by itself.)   

[Binns]

8 minutes ago, Pete Martell said:

One of the problems with this many seasons and so many stories where viewers have to fill in the blanks for actions and reactions is that it makes it much harder work to figure out characterization. I don't envy a new writer who has to figure out Sam, for instance. 

True. And then sometimes I get wound up because something happens that makes no sense and then I realize that I'm confusing the show with fanfic again....hoping I'm not alone there. O_O

[catrox14]

To find the positives:

I like the actor that played the head FBI dude. He was really good on Continuum.

Dean looked hot.

[catrox14]

Not only was this a poorly plotted, badly written episode it was BORING. That's almost a worse thing than it just being crappy.

[catrox14]

Oh never mind. It was the Secret Service that took Dean and Sam. At least that part is correct. Yay for small favors.

[catrox14]

So, I guess this episode must have taken place in what 2017, because in s10 Dean referenced Obama as the sitting president. What happened to Obama?
Dammit, Barry!

[SueB]

Well I enjoyed it.  It wasn't a heart-stopping episode but I liked the cliffhanger -- which is a weird thing, usually I'm just traumatized by the cliffhanger.  I'm hoping that Luci is back in the cage.  The nephilim story line was unexpected.  But I can also see it fit well with Luci's personality.  He's just a mess emotionally and this would give him a sense of purpose.  

I'm not sure I want the story to drag on though so we'll have to see.  

True confessions:
- I understand the dubcon situation and why people were grossed out but for the President, I don't feel bad. The President and Kelly were in a mutual relationship and he consented to letting Lucifer use his body. OTOH, I DO feel bad for Kelly. Clearly she would have never slept with Satan nor intentionally bore his spawn.  But (and here's the confession part), Lucifer as a virgin was a little funny to me.  It just sort of "worked" for me.'

Other parts I enjoyed:
- the revelation to Kelly (as others have pointed out)
- Rowena and Crowley bonding over him exploding her ex
- Cas taking his FBI role just a little too serious, Crowley enjoying himself with the badge
- Crowley being VERY useful -- Dean's sort of accepted this, even though he still insults him.  Sam just cannot wrap his head around working with Crowley.
- Dean's grenade launcher envy
 

Parts I didn't enjoy:
- Since we did, in fact, elect Satan's orange-faced cousin (IMO) ... this hit a little close to home with the nuclear weapons joke. Too soon.
- The sloppiness to set up the cliffhanger.  It didn't grate but it was a little obvious.  S&D needed to haul ass.  And Cas has got to stop trusting women who want to pee (first Claire, now Kelly)

Jury is out:
- Jame Bond (Mr Ketch) from the BMoL.  Handy to give them the McGuffin to push out Lucifer but he's obviously not to be trusted as we already saw him murder the psychic girl.
- Kelly's attachment to Lucifer's spawn.  
 

I'll definitely re-watch again.  I must admit, my expectations were VERY LOW going into this episode and it probably fared better for me as I expected the worst.

Edited December 9, 2016 by SueB

[catrox14]

11 minutes ago, SueB said:

- Crowley being VERY useful -- Dean's sort of accepted this, even though he still insults him.  Sam just cannot wrap his head around working with Crowley.

Which is pretty rich considering Sam had no problem working with Crowley to save the world.

Really sorry for the multiple posts but I just keep having thoughts.

Look I know BL are crap writers but how in the fuck would this Kelly chick even know she's pregnant after like 48 hours? Come on. Just take the damn Plan B pill and problem solved. So she just doesn't give a shit that she's having Satan's spawn? Kill them both. Now. 

That look between Sam and the Secret Service guy was kind of strange. Also, Sam, why did you lie about trying to contact the MoL? That was so dumb

Edited December 9, 2016 by catrox14

[AwesomO4000]

27 minutes ago, SueB said:

But (and here's the confession part), Lucifer as a virgin was a little funny to me.

Well maybe with a woman... or with a woman in a meatsuit? But we - and unfortunately Sam - know Lucifer's technically not a virgin. And both Hallucifer and actual Lucifer were fairly clear about that. Poor Sam.

Edited December 9, 2016 by AwesomO4000

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Well maybe with a woman... or with a woman in a meatsuit? But we - and unfortunately Sam - know Lucifer's technically not a virgin. And both Hallucifer and actual Lucifer were fairly clear about that. Poor Sam.

I'm thinking this is BL's way of trying to make it seem like Lucifer didn't sexually assault Sam which goes completely contrary to every damn thing we've been told and has been implied both textually and subtextually. Fuck the show for that. Seriously.

[ahrtee]

12 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Well maybe with a woman... or with a woman in a meatsuit? But we - and unfortunately Sam - know Lucifer's technically not a virgin. And both Hallucifer and actual Lucifer were fairly clear about that. Poor Sam.

Except Sam's body was removed from the cage very shortly after he got there.  So whatever Luci did...it wasn't physical.    

6 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I'm thinking this is BL's way of trying to make it seem like Lucifer didn't sexually assault Sam which goes completely contrary to every damn thing we've been told and has been implied both textually and subtextually. Fuck the show for that. Seriously.

Implied, but I can't figure out how it might have actually worked.  Even if they did have physical bodies in the cage, they were sharing Sam's body--only one body.  So you can call it mind-rape, but Luci would still have been technically a virgin.  

Edited December 9, 2016 by ahrtee