S03.E08: The Unkindest Cut

[Tara Ariano]

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In order to get Nessa into the spotlight, Andre sabotages Tiana's big appearance at a fashion event; Tariq teams up with Leah to bring down Lucious; and Jamal hopes working with Philip will help him finally overcome his PTSD.

[Dee]

Empire was AMAZING tonight.

The front end of this season has been nothing short fantastic

[Primetimer]

Except Showgirls somehow seems more realistic.

View the full article

[Syndicate]

Andre is receiving some good airtime this season, but he was especially creepy tonight. The line that he used: "Your daughter has beautiful hair; I can see why you love her" along with the facial expression that he displayed while saying it, had such a child molester vibe. Then the little girl finds her hair cut off and strewn all over the bed. Andre is far more than just bipolar at this point. I liked the twist of Mama Lucious scheming with Lucious and double crossing Tariq. Taye Diggs and Phylicia Rashad are wonderful additions. I once made the suggestion that this show should include a new rival family of some sort to coincide with the Lyons. I would love if the show brought in more family members related to Angelo and Diana.

2 minutes ago, Syndicate said:

 

Edited December 8, 2016 by Syndicate

[Artsda]

I'm so tired of Jamal and his whining over Lucious, the whole daddy song was just embarrassing.

I'm glad Lucious dropped the Cookie set up the hit news. May be Jamal could realize his mommy isn't perfect and set  a lot in motion.  

Loved Andre this episode!

Tiana's song was catchy at the start.

[NowVoyager]

I was fascinated by all the focus on hair, specifically hair texture:

Gina Gershon's character putting so much emphasis on hair, when she so obviously wears a wig. I kept waiting for somebody to snatch it off. I thought: missed opportunity, show! There's nothing more soapy than a good wig snatch. Until! Lawdhavemercy----

No. They. Didn't! Cut off all that poor baby's "hair!" So wrong, but yes I laughed & I laughed! (Um, I wonder if they have a child psychologist on retainer? You know, like in real life?)

Also, I'm getting my ingenue's confused. They all kinda look alike to me: young, pretty, slim, with "good" or relaxed hair textures, & similar musical styles. During the stage performance I was enraptured with the background dancers' all manners of kinks & coils! Meanwhile, I was looking at Nessa(?) & wondering if that was all her natural hair/hair texture. Of course, it's fine if it's not. I thought her hair was gorgeous. It just... kinda weakens the argument for embracing natural Black beauty. 

Not to mention, Luscious still sporting that tired ass conk. I get the dandyism of it all, but why isn't it tight? Is the show pandering to us? Like we won't get it unless it's super obvious? We already had the scene an episode or two ago with him getting his perm done in the office. That was enough. (It always makes me think of Cedric the Entertainer's bit about Big Luther "Curl Ain't Quite Right" Vandross. "His curl never quite....! *sigh!*")

[Neurochick]

I really loved this episode, and I love Evil Andre, he really IS the most like Lucious.

But, I was bothered by something here. 

I know that Lee Daniels has been accused of colorism, and often it's not even subtle. (in "Precious" the dark skinned folks were bad, while the lighter skinned ones were the saviors).  I found that I couldn't enjoy Nessa's performance (nor did I like that wig on top of her head...yeah, natural, how did her hair grow so fast?) because I knew how she and Andre sabotaged Tiana and violated a little girl, no, I didn't think that was funny at all, it's one thing when you mess with grown ups, but kids are off limits IMO; I wonder if even Lucious would stoop so low. 

What bugged me about this was that Nessa never seemed like an evil person and suddenly she was.  Also, it kind of implied that no way would Nessa be in the spotlight if she and Andre hadn't sabotaged Tiana.  I feel Andre changed one, when Rhonda was killed and then when he was arrested by the police and then when Lucious took them to his neighborhood and basically told them to "man up."  That makes sense to me, I'm glad to see this side of Andre.  But, I hope his "change" isn't blamed on his affection for Nessa.

[Dee]

I don't see Nessa or Andre as evil. To me they're ambitious and coldly calculating. And it's kind of great.

The reasons for Andre's change, and what his parents kept trying to get him to see, was that color always matters and no amount of wanting to be accepted by the 'mainstream' was going to allow him to forget that, or make the world any less inclined to see him for exactly what he is, the son of a gangster.

So he decided to lean into it. And for all the drama his actions have wrought in the lives of those closest to him, it's begun paying significant dividends for him personally.

Rhonda's death, hit him like a ton of bricks, until he realized the changes he began going through shortly after her death, were what she wanted from him prior to his passing. And despite the fact that she continues to haunt him, he knows she would approve of him being in it to win it now.

Nessa is in a similar position.

When she's introduced, she's fairly low-key and sticks to her primary family (Shyne) like glue. She's also smart enough not to fall for Hakeem's boyish charm and resolutely refuses to slam Tiana on wax, to the point where Shyne assaults her, due to her reticence. After that, Andre slowly but surely earns her trust and opens her eyes to the fact that it's ok for her to want more than being a victim of Shyne's brutality and singing hooks on occasional Empire features.

Now that Andre has proven himself to her beyond a shadow of a doubt, she's become his partner in crime, and they're reaping the benefits.

Edited December 9, 2016 by Dee

[TobinAlbers]

9 hours ago, Artsda said:

I'm so tired of Jamal and his whining over Lucious, the whole daddy song was just embarrassing.

I actually cringed for him with that song. I get that Lucious is a trigger for him and he needed to work through it but come ON, Jamal. A song for a private performance for your family to call him out and then expect your brothers to hop on board without sending them the memo on what you were doing?

The best revenge is to live your life and live it successfully without the whining. Sure, tell Lucious off and where you stand but don't expect him to have an epiphany and come groveling at your feet. Go independent and put out your album. Do intimate concerts to get your mojo back. Go into therapy to bitch about your dad but write music about the positive things you want to do. Constantly clapping back at your dad publically is just making YOU look weak. Especially when a few days later you'll reconcile with Lucious because you 'understand' him and do a duet with him for the Empire This man threw you in a garbage can and not a day before you took a bullet for him said when you die of AIDS he was gonna laugh. He's toxic Jamal. Cut the cord and mean it.

I'm pretty sure Andre's developed an alter ego (they keep lampshading it when he literally wears the black hat fedora) as a coping mechanism for losing Rhonda that he's modeled after Lucious which is why his actions and charm are very much like what Lucious would do.  Without Rhonda, he's needed a strong hand to guide him (Cookie and Lucious can't be bothered) and keep him together and this ruthless black hat Andre is the guy getting stuff done. And of course Cookie only notices something is off with him when he messes with her business at Empire and is determined to get a handle on what's going on with him. Not after he lost his son, not after he lost Rhonda. Lucious is a manipulative bastard when it comes to the kids, but Cookie isn't any better much of the time in parenting unless Hakeem, Jamal, or Andre directly undercut her businesswise.

This is the ONE thing I hate that soaps do; someone can be legitimately mentally ill and do bad things for story but they are not evil and yet they'll be painted as evil by other characters to justify the hard takedown. These people are often not in complete control of their actions in terms of rational or moral thought. Lucious is legit evil. He will do things and know they're wrong but the benefit to him outweighs any consequence so he'll do them. Andre is mentally ill AND has had Lucious as his primary influence to give him a very warped impression of the world.  Andre does know right from wrong under normal circumstances when he's medicated and will dabble with his inner Lucious, but he'll ride that line. But when he's unmediated and undergoing a break due to all the stress in his life, there are a lot of mitigating circumstances at play and I don't consider him evil. He definitely needs to be restrained in order to get help, but not vilified.  Lucious deserves the deepest darkest hole in the worst prison you can find. He's guilty as hell.

Hate to say it but Anika and Lucious's smash and extortion sex scene? I kinda dug it. Those two do have chemistry and they do make a great power couple if they could be consistently on the same damn page and not undermine each other depending on which way the wind blows.

Hakeem can miss me with his now teaming up with Tiana. Dude is all over the place with his women. However, if the show is moving towards him realizing that he had a great thing with her and wants to mature and be in a real relationship with her that'd be good too.

[Neurochick]

27 minutes ago, Dee said:

I don't see Nessa or Andre as evil. To me they're ambitious and coldly calculating. And it's kind of great.

I'm sorry, but I don't think it's okay to cut a child's hair off, just because you want your girlfriend to headline some show that will be forgotten about in six months.  Nessa showed that the only way she'll ever make it, is if she steps on somebody else, and I think that's pretty evil.

[Dee]

It's highly ironic Jamal lectured Hakeem about not focusing his career solely on clapbacks a few weeks ago, because he's as guilty as his little brother over airing petty grievances through music. Lucious is a bastard and extremely toxic, but he loves Jamal and Jamal knows it. But Jamal's problem is he only wants to accept people on his terms, not theirs, which is largely a reflection of his refusal to make peace with his own dark side. Until he does that, he's gonna constantly find himself at odds with various members of his family.

I didn't miss the fluttery feelings Jamal got in Phillip's presence. Derek better step up. Fast.

I don't think Andre has MPD. I do think Rhonda still haunts him and that he hasn't fully made peace with her death. However, I think he's in total control of his faculties and the hat is just a tribute to his father. There was a nice bit of work by the director that had Andre arrogantly strolling down the hall, to his office with a big poster of Lucious looming on the wall behind him, after it was revealed that Helene's daughter's hair was cut. That was a total Lucious (and Rhonda) move.

Cookie is only realizing Andre is changing now, because he's been fairly good at not going off the deep end lately. No one could blame him, given all he's lost, but if he's not embroiled in serious drama (like when he was arrested) or in immediate distress (like when he was in the midst of a manic episode) his parents don't feel the need to hover. 

Lucious and Cookie are also trying to keep their huge music company running while simultaneously dealing with temperamental artists, serious tech breaches, uneasy board members, a huge new streaming platform, and constant fed interference. Which is to say, they're dealing with a lot and it's not as if they're abandoning their grown children arbitrarily.

I'm loving the Takeem reunion. Hakeem fixing Tiana comfort ice cream and settling in to watch Creed with her as he braids her hair is the cutest thing ever.

Also loving the Lucious & Anika reunion. Anika finds her inner thug and it, predictably, turns Lucious on.

Joe is Tariq's achilles heel. And Lucious being Lucious, he'll exploit it, and have Tariq in the family fold before the end of the season.

Loving Porsha lately. Ta'Rhonda has a big personality IRL so it'd be really easy for the writers to go big with Porsha, but they, and Ta'Rhonda, pull back just enough to make to Porsha a loopy yet oddly competent assistant.

Phylicia Rashad & Taye Diggs continue to be delightful and Gina Gershon brought just the right amount of racist venom to Helene.

Nana Leah remains the best.

[Dee]

On 12/8/2016 at 10:37 AM, Neurochick said:

I'm sorry, but I don't think it's okay to cut a child's hair off, just because you want your girlfriend to headline some show that will be forgotten about in six months.  Nessa showed that the only way she'll ever make it, is if she steps on somebody else, and I think that's pretty evil.

Nessa was making it before she hooked up with Andre.

She had serious buzz due to her performance at the Empire X-Stream launch and was the subject of bidding wars by several huge record execs, before signing a lucrative contract with Empire.

Andre had Helene's daughters hair cut as a part of his plan to achieve Nessa's goals, but nowhere in the episode does it imply that Nessa endorsed, or even was even aware of, Andre's actions.

Edited December 11, 2016 by Dee

[Neurochick]

11 minutes ago, Dee said:

Andre had Helen's daughters hair cut as a part of his plan to achieve Nessa's goals, but nowhere in the episode does it imply that Nessa endorsed, or even was even aware of, Andre's actions.

But Nessa had no problem burning Tiana's dress and recording her temper tantrum.  So IMO Nessa was complicit.  And if Nessa was so talented, why did she feel the need to sabotage Tiana?

[Dee]

I never stated Nessa wasn't complicit, but that she only started to aspire to more, ala sabotage, once she hooked up with Andre.

Nessa's motives for sabotaging Tiana are simple. Nessa wanted her spot.

Tiana is a major "crossover" star headlining a runway show of a famous fashion designer. The quickest way for the newer,  more urban leaning Nessa to slide into that enviable position is to bump Tiana out the way, which she did with Andre's help.

Edited December 8, 2016 by Dee

[dirtypop90]

Never liked nessa and really don't now. She's mixed in with the Lyon family and trying to operate like them...I get that...but Tiana doesn't bother anybody. And this family is always screwing her over. I don't understand why she hasn't tried to leave. Tiana let nessa shadow her, like Laura, and she turned on her also like Laura. She's also had her business exposed in the hack, been almost sliced in the face, been the subject of a disgusting diss record, got a dead ex, cant make the music she wants-- cookie seems to nay everything she likes and lucious forces keem on her album. And she doesn't bother anybody. this is why the nessa move really annoys me...like just add her to the list.

[Dee]

Cookie and Tiana had a fairly good working relationship until recently. When Tiana wasn't enthused about recording 'Me,' she never confides that to Cookie, like she used to.

Instead she whines behind Cookie's back, and Becky, makes an already messy situation worse, by acting in her own self interest and unnecessarily competing with another A&R exec.

After that debacle Tiana still doesn't have a one on one session with her warmhearted manager, Cookie; instead she resorts to petulant tantrums and skipping studio time.

[jtallman]

I gave up on this show three episodes ago and this recap makes me feel OK about that decision.

[Neurochick]

1 hour ago, dirtypop90 said:

Never liked nessa and really don't now. She's mixed in with the Lyon family and trying to operate like them...I get that...but Tiana doesn't bother anybody. And this family is always screwing her over. I don't understand why she hasn't tried to leave. Tiana let nessa shadow her, like Laura, and she turned on her also like Laura. She's also had her business exposed in the hack, been almost sliced in the face, been the subject of a disgusting diss record, got a dead ex, cant make the music she wants-- cookie seems to nay everything she likes and lucious forces keem on her album. And she doesn't bother anybody. this is why the nessa move really annoys me...like just add her to the list.

I liked her in the beginning but I can't stand her now.  The shit she did to Tiana, that stuff ALWAYS comes back at you and sometimes it comes back ten fold. 

 

1 hour ago, Dee said:

Nessa's motives for sabotaging Tiana are simple. Nessa wanted her spot.

So the only way Nessa can get any recognition is to steal another woman (another black woman's) spot.  How wonderful. (sarcastic).  IMO it's NOT something to celebrate at all, or give any likes to.  Right now I could give two fucks what happens to Nessa.

[dirtypop90]

1 hour ago, Dee said:

Cookie and Tiana had a fairly good working relationship until recently. When Tiana wasn't enthused about recording 'Me,' she never confides that to Cookie, like she used to.

Instead she whines behind Cookie's back, and Becky, makes an already messy situation worse, by acting in her own self interest and unnecessarily competing with another A&R exec.

After that debacle Tiana still doesn't have a one on one session with her warmhearted manager, Cookie; instead she resorts to petulant tantrums and skipping studio time.

It is cookie's job to reach out Tiana. Her artist is unhappy and has been unhappy and we haven't seen once do anything to try to correct it. Tiana chose her over BBK back in season one because she thought cookie cared about her artists and would fight for them, but that's only true for her sons. Cookie basically shrugged off andre's antics this episode. Tiana bought what cookie and both Hakeem sold her about her being apart of the family but she really isn't and they truly don't give a damn about her and her career. All the sh*t that family has done to her. Tiana should be bringing lawsuits. 

Edited December 8, 2016 by dirtypop90

[Dee]

11 hours ago, Neurochick said:

So the only way Nessa can get any recognition is to steal another woman (another black woman's) spot.

As I said in a previous post, Nessa was a hot commodity before sabotaging Tiana. She's even hotter now that she's aced Helene's fashion show.

Plus Nessa doesn't owe Tiana anything. And in fact, was a lot more considerate to Tiana, without knowing her, than Laura (who Tiana personally mentored) ever was.

Sure, Nessa could've spent time in the trenches building her brand, but now that she's scheming with Andre, why would one take the stairs when they can take the elevator?

Edited December 9, 2016 by Dee

[Neurochick]

1 minute ago, Dee said:

Sure, Nessa could've spent time in the trenches building her brand, but now that she's scheming with Andre, why would one take the stairs when they can take the elevator?

Because nobody wants to fall into the elevator shaft when someone pushes you down there.

IMO it's not a good thing when two black women are fighting each other, but hey it makes for good TV I guess.

[dirtypop90]

10 minutes ago, Dee said:

As I said in a previous post, Nessa was a hot commodity before sabotaging Tiana. She's even hotter now that she  the fashion show.

Plus Nessa doesn't owe Tiana anything. And in fact, was a lot more considerate to Tiana, without knowing her, than Laura (who Tiana personally mentored) ever was.

Sure, Nessa could've spent time in the trenches building her brand, but now that she's scheming with Andre, why would one take the stairs when they can take the elevator?

Since when is nessa a hot commodity? They were just talking about nessa being relatively unknown this ep.  She's not even bigger than Laura and her group appeared to be last season. Laura was getting press because of her relationship with Hakeem and on tour.

never thought nessa would pop and she especiallly won't now that's she's chosen andre's side. She doesn't have it and Andre will never outsmart his father. Nessa will go down with him. Nessa would've been better off making friends with any one else--cookie, Hakeem, Jamal, or Tiana--tbh than choosing Andre.

Edited December 8, 2016 by dirtypop90

[Dee]

10 minutes ago, dirtypop90 said:

It is cookie's job to reach out Tiana. Her artist is unhappy and has been unhappy and we haven't seen once do anything to try to correct it. Tiana chose her over BBK back in season one because she thought cookie cared about her artists and would fight for them, but that's only true for her sons. Cookie basically shrugged off andre's antics this episode. Tiana bought what cookie and both Hakeem sold her about her being apart of the family but she really isn't and they truly don't give a damn about her and her career. All the sh*t that family has done to her. Tiana should be bringing lawsuits. 

Cookie does care about Tiana, quite a bit actually. Tiana's frequent issues with Hakeem aside, she and Cookie always shared a warm relationship until Tiana decided to act immaturely.

However, Cookie is not a mind reader. She made a solid business decision to go with 'Me' as Tiana's lead single, if Tiana, an established artist, was so bothered by the aforementioned choice she should've discussed the issue with Cookie instead of whining about it later in the studio.

And as an adult Tiana shouldn't be screaming at Cookie about Gram airing her dirty laundry, when it was Tiana's choice to get involved with such a shady individual in the first place. Nor should Cookie have to fight with Tiana to show up for her studio time which is well established to be fairly expensive.

Also Cookie didn't shrug off Andre's actions. Andre played her. Prior to the TMI leak, Cookie had no reason to suspect Andre had any intention of sabotaging Tiana's career, but as soon as she realized he was behind everything, she gave him a proper dressing down.

[Dee]

11 hours ago, dirtypop90 said:

Since when is nessa a hot commodity? They were just talking about nessa being relatively unknown this ep.

Nessa has been a hot commodity since the Empire X-Stream launch. She had label heads competing to sign her, including Lucious.

However, in the end she chose Empire, who offered her an impressive contract given her status as a relatively new artist.

In this episode what they meant by Nessa being relatively unknown was to more mainstream, ie, pop audiences.

That's something that happens all the time in real life, where artists can be extremely popular with audiences of color while barely visible to white people.

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 She's not even bigger than Laura and her group appeared to be last season. Laura was getting press because of her relationship with Hakeem and on tour.

Laura was getting mainstream press largely because she was engaged to one of Empire's heirs, who also happened to be a very popular Empire digital artist. Her fame increased a bit when Mirage A Trois went on tour, but by the end of the season it was clear that Laura wasn't going to be anywhere near as big a star as she, or Hakeem, had hoped, even with Hakeem's seal of approval & the Empire machine behind her.

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never thought nessa would pop and she especiallly won't now that's she's chosen andre's side. She doesn't have it and Andre will never outsmart his father. Nessa will go down with him. Nessa would've been better off making friends with any one else--cookie, Hakeem, Jamal, or Tiana--tbh than choosing Andre.

Right now it looks like things are headed toward an Andre/Nessa vs. Hakeem/Tiana grudge match.

How that irons out, who knows?

Andre is very intelligent and cunning, but Hakeem isn't a fool. He may be naive and immature, but he's quite bright when it comes to remaining relevant (especially after working closely with Cookie over the past year) & prone to thinking outside of the box.

Edited December 9, 2016 by Dee

[Dee]

24 minutes ago, Neurochick said:

Because nobody wants to fall into the elevator shaft when someone pushes you down there.

IMO it's not a good thing when two black women are fighting each other, but hey it makes for good TV I guess.

It's a Black show with Black characters.

Why do you insist on turning quality character based conflict into pathology?

[dirtypop90]

34 minutes ago, Dee said:

Cookie does care about Tiana, quite a bit actually. Tiana's frequent issues with Hakeem aside, she and Cookie always shared a warm relationship until Tiana decided to act immaturely.

However, Cookie is not a mind reader. She made a solid business decision to go with 'Me' as Tiana's lead single, if Tiana, an established artist, was so bothered by the aforementioned choice she should've discussed the issue with Cookie instead of whining about it later in the studio.

And as an adult Tiana shouldn't be screaming at Cookie about Gram airing her dirty laundry, when it was Tiana's choice to get involved with such a shady individual in the first place. Nor should Cookie have to fight with Tiana to show up for her studio time which is well established to be fairly expensive.

Also Cookie didn't shrug off Andre's actions. Andre played her. Prior to the TMI leak, Cookie had no reason to suspect Andre had any intention of sabotaging Tiana's career, but as soon as she realized he was behind everything, she gave him a proper dressing down.

Cookie doesn't have to be a mind reader to know Tiana is unhappy. Tianna has expressed it to cookie and everyone else. Cookie just doesn't care enough to try to make sure her only star is happy. It is mindblowing. 

"A proper dressing down?" I disagree. She handled Andre with kid gloves and he's pretty much gotten away with it.

a private video was leaked because of Andre. Her being involved with a rapper they didn't like did NOT make her deserving of andre's hack and Hakeem's disgusting record consigned by lucious. And that was the second time Andre has violated her privacy.. He also leaked the video of her and her girlfriend in season 1 to get back at Hakeem. My point was about the entire family being bad for Tiana, not just cookie. She is frequently taking shots because of their mess. And cookie does not to protect her or stand up for her.

tiana appears to be the only one bringing in money consistently and they treat her like crap, so she can blow off as many studio sessions as she wants IMO

there is nothing indicating nessa has a big fan base. Her brother and lucious fought over her because they think she is talented and has potential but she has yet to prove herself which is she has to sabotage Tiana to get in a fashion show. She will go the way of Laura. 

Edited December 8, 2016 by dirtypop90

[Neurochick]

52 minutes ago, Dee said:

Why do you insist on turning quality character based conflict into pathology?

Because that's what happens when you play dirty.

I'll tell you why.  I work in an institution and I have been for many years, it's full of ethnic minorities.  One thing I have noticed is that all minorities seem to find each other, except black American people. We give each other the side eye and avoid each other.  Just makes me shake my head.  Now in the show, Nessa is allowing a male to guide her career, and we all know how those things end up.  Nessa doesn't get that they'll always be someone who will play you dirtier, and I hope that someone is Tiana because Nessa deserves it.

38 minutes ago, dirtypop90 said:

there is nothing indicating nessa has a big fan base. Her brother and lucious fought over her because they think she is talented and has potential but she has yet to prove herself which is she has to sabotage Tiana to get in a fashion show. She will go the way of Laura. 

Agreed.

[Dee]

Tiana never expresses to Cookie that she's unhappy about recording 'Me.' That literally never happens onscreen.

The only people who know of Tiana's penchant for Starlight over Me are Becky, Xavier and Tiana's friends. None of whom enlighten Cookie about Tiana's feelings. Xavier uses the situation to his advantage, as does Becky and Tiana's friends are non factors.

Furthermore how can Cookie, or any manager be expected to "keep an artist happy" if said artist never makes it clear they have a problem?

A proper dressing down is all Cookie can do. The fashion show is over and Nessa received the requisite shine for performing well. Litigating against another Empire artist, especially one managed by one of your children, who you have no genuine proof sabotaged your artist is a tall order.

Now, if Andre sabotages Tiana, again, on Cookie's watch and Cookie can prove Andre an/or Nessa's machinations in a court of law? Then that would be worth litigating. For now it's enough that Cookie realizes what depths Andre will go to to ensure Nessa's success.

And Tiana isn't exactly an angel. When she was deep into Takeem brand establishment with Hakeem in Season One, she was openly frolicking with her girlfriend where any one could see them. Rhonda just happened to be the one to find & exploit them to she and Andre's advantage.

Also, it was Tiana's lack of circumspection of her personal life that caused a huge tech breach for Empire. Granted, Andre was ultimately behind it, but Tiana knew Gram had a severe grudge against Lucious and Empire for weeks and said nothing about it. What kind of artist willingly overlooks something that huge, for no reason? Tiana had no problem with Lucious, so for her not to speak up indicates she wanted the breach to happen, if only through a huge sin of omission.

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tiana appears to be the only one bringing in money consistently and they treat her like crap, so she can blow off as many studio sessions as she wants IMO

If Tiana feels the need to act like a diva then she shouldn't be whining that her fans and/or the press is labeling her diva.

Quote

And cookie does not to protect her or stand up for her.

Cookie does protect and stand up for Tiana.

When Tiana (who happily left Empire to follow Cookie) was robbed at Lyon Dynasty, Cookie immediately hired security detail. When Hakeem refused to work with Tiana after learning about her girlfriend, it was Cookie who finessed the situation enough to get them to record Drip Drop. When Anika booked Tiana a gig on the Teen Choice Awards it was Cookie who suggested Tiana duet with Hakeem to maximize their brand. When Anika tried to lure Tiana from Empire, it was Cookie (and Hakeem) who all but begged Tiana to remain with Empire.

The only time Cookie, as a manager, was fairly hands off with Tiana, as an artist, was when Laura began encroaching on Tiana's space on tour and Hakeem, as acting CEO at the time, stepped in to rectify the situation. A solution which Tiana was ok with as long as she remained respected as the tour headliner.

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there is nothing indicating nessa has a big fan base.

Nessa is a new artist with enough raw potential that she's being offered million dollar contracts and wowing high society types at the drop of a hat.

Of course she's not going to have a big fanbase as established artists like Titan, J Poppa or Tiana, right now, but she definitely possesses the tools to make it happen sooner rather than later.

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Her brother and lucious fought over her because they think she is talented and has potential but she has yet to prove herself

She's proven herself enough, thus far, for execs to seek her out with contracts, for Shyne to take a severe beating to keep her under his wing and to have wowed seasoned society mavens like Diana DuBois with a fairly impromptu performance. That's pretty much the essence of proving one's self imo.

Edited December 9, 2016 by Dee

[Dee]

7 minutes ago, Neurochick said:

Because that's what happens when you play dirty.

I'll tell you why.  I work in an institution and I have been for many years, it's full of ethnic minorities.  One thing I have noticed is that all minorities seem to find each other, except black American people. We give each other the side eye and avoid each other.  Just makes me shake my head.  Now in the show, Nessa is allowing a male to guide her career, and we all know how those things end up.  Nessa doesn't get that they'll always be someone who will play you dirtier, and I hope that someone is Tiana because Nessa deserves it

Nessa isn't allowing Andre to guide her career. They're working together.

It was Nessa who destroyed Helene's closing gown and it was Nessa who recorded Tiana's outburst. She was as much a part of the subterfuge as Andre.

And for the record, I'm not rooting for Andre & Nessa over Hakeem & Tiana. I'm actually looking forward to their little war.

If only because so many viewers have, thus far, underestimated Hakeem because he lacks Andre's patience and physical strength. But Hakeem has proven to be wily and unpredictable when the gloves come off, which they most definitely have.

[Neurochick]

6 minutes ago, Dee said:

If only because so many viewers have, thus far, underestimated Hakeem because he lacks Andre's patience and physical strength. But Hakeem has proven to be wily and unpredictable when the gloves come off, which they most definitely have.

Very true.  Last season though, I think a lot of people underestimated Andre, but this season Andre is coming into his own.  What's interesting is that even though all three sons say they hate their father, all three of them have elements of Lucious in them. 

 

6 minutes ago, Dee said:

It was Nessa who destroyed Helene's closing gown and it was Nessa who recorded Tiana's outburst. She was as much a part of the subterfuge as Andre.

And I can't wait to see her go down.  I have a feeling that Shine might kill her accidentally as he's aiming for Andre or something. 

See, if you have talent, you don't need to sabotage anybody, only no talent punks need to do shit like that.  I mean what's next?  If I think someone has taken my job, should I have them killed?  I don't think so.

Edited December 8, 2016 by Neurochick

[vibeology]

5 hours ago, Dee said:

I don't see Nessa or Andre as evil. To me they're ambitious and coldly calculating. And it's kind of great.

You can feel however you want to feel about Nessa, but Andre Godfathered an 8 year old. That's not some quick action. It's a series of choices that take some time. Let's just review the steps. Andre makes the decision to hurt this child, makes the pointed comment to creep out that racist designer lady, breaks into the house or pays someone to break into the house, sneaks into a child's room, hacks off her hair and leaves. That's pretty evil and fucked up.

1 hour ago, Dee said:

Plus Nessa doesn't owe Tiana anything. And in fact, was a lot more considerate to Tiana, without knowing her, than Laura (who Tiana personally mentored) ever was.

I can't say Nessa was considerate of Tiana considering we know the whole thing was an act to get close enough to Tiana to mess with her and embarrass her. She played Tiana by acting sweet and helpful but we know that all of that was just Nessa looking for an opportunity to ruin Tiana's relationship with that designer and take her place.

[Dee]

1 minute ago, vibeology said:

That's pretty evil and fucked up.

Was targeting Helene's kid cruel? That's definitely debatable.

Given the girl's mother was an epic racist, Andre's actions don't bother me too much.

Quote

I can't say Nessa was considerate of Tiana considering we know the whole thing was an act to get close enough to Tiana to mess with her and embarrass her.

I was referring to Nessa refusing to participate in/on Hakeem's Tiana clapback track, in spite of Shyne's demands & violent threats.

[Dee]

12 minutes ago, Neurochick said:

See, if you have talent, you don't need to sabotage anybody, only no talent punks need to do shit like that.  I mean what's next?  If I think someone has taken my job, should I have them killed?  I don't think so.

You're talking real life. But we're discussing fiction right now.

And just about everybody who works at Empire has acted in their own self interest. Some more than others.

Sometimes those who do receive karmic retribution for their actions, sometimes they don't.

[vibeology]

4 minutes ago, Dee said:

Was targeting Helene's kid cruel? That's definitely debatable.

Given the girl's mother was an epic racist, Andre's actions don't bother me too much.

Then go and damage the mother's upcoming collection or something. Bringing a child into it is fucked up and evil. I stand by that. Even the worst of the worst don't bring kids into it because they're not to blame. Hair grows back so the poor girl isn't physically harmed in a lasting way, but the trauma of knowing that someone (Andre or whatever creep Andre hired) was in your room and touching you as you slept isn't something that she's just going to brush off. It's a very clear violation that can destroy someone's sense of security. And the fact that her mom is an epic racist isn't the eight year old girl's fault. Andre crossed a huge line with this.

Had Andre burned down the woman's studio or covered every single piece of that white collection with black paint or even gone into Helene's bedroom and cut off her hair, I wouldn't be calling it evil. It was choosing to target a child that is, for me, the horrifying part of it.

[mtlchick]

I will not lie: I would kill for Grace's body and lingerie situation.  And then Leslie busts in with "THAT'S WHERE I EAT!" 

Then you find out Mama and Son are in cahoots TOGETHER.

(And that's before I start on the sons.)

Oh show.  Hiatus is going to be rough without your shenanigans.

[Keepitmoving]

Quote

You can feel however you want to feel about Nessa, but Andre Godfathered an 8 year old. That's not some quick action. It's a series of choices that take some time.

I mean correct me if I'm wrong, but that was a form of assault. He went and chopped off that girl's hair, he put unwanted hands on her or paid to have someone do so. That did NOT work for me, that was a no, no.

WTH, now he realizes some shit about being black, the justice system, son of a gangsta etc..and he's going take it out on the long blonde hair of some white little girl? Did he forget all the years he spent running his black fingers through his white wife's blonde hair? What grown ass man is cutting off some little girl's hair because a mama is a  bigot? Yeah, bye Andre, he's about to need to be committed.  It doesn't help that his character doesn't do much for me either. 

And out of all three sons I don't feel that he has any love for his mother. Which I don't get since he's the eldest and spent more of his years on earth with her than the other two, before she went to jail.

Jamal, cut the shit out with your whining songs when it comes to "Lucifer" that's not the way to deal with it all.

And I call bullshit on ooh Jamal, your shooting was partly Cookie's fault because she called in the hit. Fuck that, nope, nope, nope.  What I recall is this shit started when Luscious decided to take Freda under his wing and bring her over to Empire and flaunt her in Hakeem's face, yeah, shit like that.  Instead of letting her go back to her stopping ground and leaving her there. Meanwhile, Cookie was bitching and rightfully so to Luscious and fucking whiny Jamal to leave Freda alone. She asked Luscious to get her away from her sons. So bye writers, just bye. You must be kidding me if you expect me to say that Cookie is at fault for trying to save her damn life and that was the least Luscious could do to make sure it was saved.  Now I agree that it's not all black and white, but these writers can save it with their sorry attempt to even out the blame for Jamal getting shot equally between Cookie and Luscious. No, the blame is shared, although not equally between the shooter, Freda, and Luscious and Jamal for that matter.  Always listen to your  mama, I remember the scene specifically when Cookie pleaded with him to stay away from Freda and not work with her.  Let us not forget writers to have every look in the mirror, one that works.

Oh, mama Leah is everything, just everything. When she told what's his name, the half-brother that his mother must have been doing nasty stuff in bed with the father,her husband...I could not stop laughing.

Edited December 8, 2016 by Keepitmoving

[Sheenieb]

28 minutes ago, mtlchick said:

I will not lie: I would kill for Grace's body and lingerie situation.

Same here. That lingerie getup was everything. Trai is a lucky man.

I get ya'll on how foul Andre and Nessa were to Tiana and Gina Gershon's daughter. If this were real life, I'd be leading the charge with pitchforks, but damn, I'm here for Andre going black hat. Now see, this Andre would've dropped Anika the moment Rhonda told him that Anika was responsible for their child's death. 

I said last week that I'm over Jamal and his angst and I stand by that. He writes a song about airing out his family drama every other week. Let it go!

[tennisgurl]

Now that I've stopped drooling over Anika and her lingerie...seriously. I`m a more or less straight woman, but my God that woman looks amazing. 

Andre having (or doing it himself) the little girls hair hacked off Godfather style was seriously fucked up. And its so awful, that I darkly love it. Hacking hair is pure soap opera ridiculousness.It would have been more satisfying if it was he racist lady who got her hair hacked off though.Dark and twisty, but without dragging innocent children into it. That being said, I am intrigued by Andres descent into evil. He lost something when he lost his unborn baby, than lost even more when Rhonda died, and than continued to get stamped down when he got arrested. Cookie has at least picked up on it, but its probably too little too late. I wonder if she goes fully on Lucifer, or if he pulls back?

I love Jamal, but that whole song thing was just whiny and ridiculous. As he himself said, Lucious is everyone's trigger. And you dont have to blame him for things like Cookies dad dying, he has done TONS of actually shitty things for you to blame on him! And I really do think he loves his family, as much as its possible for him to love anyone. Creating a whole bitchy song about what a jerk his jerk dad is solves what exactly? Everyone knows Lucifer is awful, this is hardly news to anyone in the family. And, as Lucifer himself said, they've all done bad things. 

Its going to be a long hiatus. 

[LaChavalina]

Did I miss it, or did this episode not feature the scene that was in the preview, where Nessa tells Andre that she's not going to do all the things Rhonda did to help him manage his illness?

Luscious' mansion is like a game of Gangsta Clue. Luscious in the Conservatory with a tie, or Miss Anika in the parlor with a JFK decanter?

[wanderingstar]

This episode was giving me delicious soapiness, and I was here for ALL. OF. IT.

"Lucious is everybody's damn PTSD trigger."

True facts.

Andre is a sneaky snake just like his daddy. Evil Andre is very entertaining, but he's been so nasty the past few episodes, I'm starting to think he's going to be the victim of an attempted murder (though I still hold out hope it'll be Lucious).

Gina Gershon looked great in this ep, but her racist fake Anna Wintour character can go straight to hell.

I like seeing Tiana again, but I need her to get a win this season. I liked her little scene with Hakeem, but I don't even know if I should get invested in them again because the show blows so hot and cold on them.

Mama Walker is hilarious ("That's where I eat!"). Not sure how I feel about the Anika/Lucious rekindling, though.

Quote

Gina Gershon's character putting so much emphasis on hair, when she so obviously wears a wig. I kept waiting for somebody to snatch it off.

Me too! I was hoping that would happen at the fashion show.

[SuburbanHangSuite]

I am loving Evil Andre.  My favorite part of this ep was him effin with Hakim over Nessa.  And his, "Watch it or I might get at Tiana too" was gangsta.  And I have no problem with the hair cutting.  

Leslie Uggams is killing it!  Who knew she had it in her to be a double agent? 

This season has more than made up for the dreck they had been serving.

[Neurochick]

I'm going to have to give the side eye to those who think it's okay to cut off an eight year old's  hair.  That's seriously fucked up, I mean that's pretty close to being child molestation and it is assault IMO, I know some won't think so but that's my opinion and I'm sticking by it.  

And I hope Nessa goes the way of Laura.

But Mama Lucious can stay forever.  I love her.  

[Jodie Landon]

7 hours ago, absolutqt said:

I am loving Evil Andre.  My favorite part of this ep was him effin with Hakim over Nessa.  And his, "Watch it or I might get at Tiana too" was gangsta.  And I have no problem with the hair cutting.  

Leslie Uggams is killing it!  Who knew she had it in her to be a double agent? 

This season has more than made up for the dreck they had been serving.

Hakeem has had an ass-beating coming from either Andre or Jamal since that stunt he pulled during the live-stream. I thought Trey played the hell out of that scene and his warning that he might do Tiana too was brilliant. I love evil Andre. I wasn't feeling Nessa at first, but now that she and Andre have joined the dark side, I'm interested to see where it goes.

I knew as soon as he put that black hat on that little girl could kiss her hair goodbye. Of course if it was real life, the little girl's hair on the pillow would've been disturbing, but it's not and it was so ridiculous that it worked for me. I just love the way Trey Byers chooses to play Andre and I like what the writers are giving him to work with.

I never thought Tiana would be so easily played. She seemed so much tougher in the earlier seasons. You think she would've learned a thing or two about ruthlessness after being around the Lyons for long, but maybe the fashion show taught her. She's going to have to toughen up if she and Hakeem are going to battle Nessa and Dre.

[wanderingstar]

Quote

I never thought Tiana would be so easily played. She seemed so much tougher in the earlier seasons. You think she would've learned a thing or two about ruthlessness after being around the Lyons for long, but maybe the fashion show taught her. She's going to have to toughen up if she and Hakeem are going to battle Nessa and Dre.

I am curious to see how that plays out. Hakeem is nowhere near Andre's level in terms of scheming, so I'm not sure how it's  going to work.

Edited December 10, 2016 by Gillian Rosh

[Dee]

Hakeem is definitely less methodical & machiavellian than Andre, but he makes up for it with tenacity and an unerring sense of relevancy.

The impending Andre/Nessa vs. Hakeem/Tiana war is gonna be a lot of fun.

[thuganomics85]

Whoa!  I figured early on that Andre and Nessa were working some angle to take out Tiana from the fashion show, but having Racist Gina Gershon's daughter hair get unwillingly get cut was nuts/evil!  I wonder if Andre snuck in and did it himself, or if he hired someone.  I can see him approaching Thirsty and being like "Hey, know anyone who can sneak into a house and cut a little girl's hair while she sleeps?" and Thirsty's just like "Not even going to ask, but I'll get it done!"  I am so looking forward to a potential Andre/Nessa vs. Hakeem/Tiana.  The former are clearly a more calculating and arguably smarter pair, but Hakeem in particular is someone so unpredictable, that I can seem him pulling off something that just throws everyone off their game and gives him a "win" of some kind.

The other takeaway I got from his stunt was that it lead to Gershon telling Diana to stay away from the Lyons, so I'm guessing this is going to lead to her trying to stop Angelo from staying with Cookie.  For his and Nessa's gain, Andre might have accidentally hurt his mother in the process.  At this point, I wonder if he even cares?

I totally get why Jamal needs to get over everything that happened to him and especially Lucious, but he has to find a better way then just singing his feeling and approaching the situation that way, because it isn't going to faze Lucious.  I don't; Jamal might need to just cut ties or something, because this is not healthy, and he barely seems to be making any improvement.  And Lucious pretty much came out ahead again, by casually mentioning Cookie's own involvement in the hit.  You can't get one over him, unless you put in the effort!

Grandma Leah is the best.  Her actually working with Lucious against Tariq was a fun twist.  And I still want them to find a way to have her meet Diana.  Lesile Uggams and Phylicia Rashad together would be a match made in campy, Empire heaven!

And to end things on a shallow note: Grace Gealey Byers has got a smoken body.  Lucy Lucious.  Actually, Trai Byers is the real winner in that department.  Being an actor is an interesting life, when it probably includes conversations like "How was work, today?"  "Oh, you know.  Had to make out with the guy playing your father!"  "Hmm... not sure if it's as weird as the time you made out with the guy playing my younger brother!" in it.

[TobinAlbers]

20 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

And to end things on a shallow note: Grace Gealey Byers has got a smoken body.  Lucy Lucious.  Actually, Trai Byers is the real winner in that department.  Being an actor is an interesting life, when it probably includes conversations like "How was work, today?"  "Oh, you know.  Had to make out with the guy playing your father!"  "Hmm... not sure if it's as weird as the time you made out with the guy playing my younger brother!" in it.

Not to mention she killed his TV wife and he had to resist manhandling his real life wife while she was sporting a pregnancy pad. They really have to compartmentalize!

Hakeem's only advantage over Andre is that Hakeem can remain focused using his anger and bruised entitlement as fuel while if Andre's voices ('Rhonda' vs himself) begin to fight, he'll unravel and the plan falls apart. Remember Hakeem is business duuuuuumb. Dude was stupid enough to write down the amount he was offering Shine so that he could broadcast it live as the number to beat. Hakeem also can be led by his, uh, lower brain quite easily. All Camilla had to do last season was show up and he flipped to her side. If Nessa came calling I have no doubt he'd flip again and leave Tianna in the dust. He may then flip back again but only after he messed up his plan enough for Andre to keep his advantage. 

[KLovestoShop]

The homage to The Godfather horse head scene via cutting the little girl's hair was way wrong.  First, I call bullshit on the whole idea because what human could have something like that done to them without waking up----unless they drugged the poor kid and if that was the case, it was more than wrong, it's criminal.   Second, smart writing could have thought of another way to convince the racist Helene to bring Nessa on board without involving a child. 

Love Mama Lyon to pieces.  She's a great double agent.   

I'm tired of Jamal and his PTSD.  His mama song was just pathetic.  

[Happytobehere]

13 minutes ago, KLovestoShop said:

The homage to The Godfather horse head scene via cutting the little girl's hair was way wrong.  First, I call bullshit on the whole idea because what human could have something like that done to them without waking up----unless they drugged the poor kid and if that was the case, it was more than wrong, it's criminal.   Second, smart writing could have thought of another way to convince the racist Helene to bring Nessa on board without involving a child. 

Love Mama Lyon to pieces.  She's a great double agent.   

I'm tired of Jamal and his PTSD.  His mama song was just pathetic.  

Umm, breaking into someone's home and cutting off their hair is a criminal act.

[jhlipton]

On 12/8/2016 at 0:03 PM, dirtypop90 said:

Tiana doesn't bother anybody. And this family is always screwing her over.

Ditto.  I've liked Tiana from "the jump" (as the kids say).  And she has been very ill-used this season.

The fashion show bothered me a lot.  They were at dress rehearsal, and the racist designer creates a whole new fabulous line (which looked nothing like her previous line!) by the show itself. Not Gonna Happen.

Definite assault.  

And like the fashion show, completely unbelievable that Andre or one of his minions could sneak into the house, cut the girl's hair and sneak back out again, completely undetected.