S01.E09: The Well-Tempered Clavier

[arc]

2 minutes ago, jeansheridan said:

I still don't understand how there can be these massive abandoned sub-basements.  Why is the morgue so remote and unsanitary for expensive pieces of macinery?  My work has one creepy storage room.  Not 83 floors of abandoned mess.  Seems very odd. And Elsie was in an abandoned theater. Why abandon assets?

When we first see sub-level 83 in the pilot, it's where they descend a flight of stairs (dead escalator?) in a grand but run-down hall, implying the storage facilities are repurposed from the old facilities after a major expansion of the Mesa Hub. (It's not the same entrance hall as the one William and Logan arrive at in ep 2, since those escalators had railings and were flanked by stairs on both sides.) For what it's worth, the Mesa Hub map on the (other) official site (Corp Resources, click on WestworldMesaHub.mp4) shows that cold storage is even lower than the "Old Disused Facilities".

And as massive as the Mesa Hub is, the mesa it's buried in could hold many more Hubs the same size, so there's plenty of room for future expansion if necessary.

[Goatherd]

1 hour ago, Bnwcat said:

It seems weird that she would go through all of this and then forget everything until the MIB comes along again. I must be missing something. Can anyone help?

For what it's worth, I'm assuming her "re-awakening" has to do with the recent addition of Reveries, which is giving her access to memories of what happened 30/35 years ago.

[numbnut]

4 hours ago, Netfoot said:

5 hours ago, Gobi said:

The only cheat to me was the scene of Stubbs sending someone to intercept Dolores in the present, followed by that happening in the past. That was a major reason for me holding out against the non-linear stories theory, and I don't expect a clarification at this point.

This is a major flaw, in my opinion.  The discussion of the intercept, followed by the actual intercept, were presented as a single event, cause and effect.  As a fact.  Not as something observed by an unreliable witness, Bernard or Theresa, that we can discount.  So, unless they return to that event and explain it, the only way it's going to be consistent is if Stubbs turns out to be a host as well.  

That's not a narrative cheat or a flaw. It's a smooth transition to hide information (the two timelines) until the dramatic reveal, the same as when Arnold and Dolores's conversation about the newcomers cuts to Teddy arriving on a train as a "guest" -- Teddy's truth is hidden until it's revealed that he's a host. It would limit the element of surprise if every fact is stated up front. The plot points would be too easy to predict.

[Chicago Redshirt]

14 hours ago, Broderbits said:

But we did see Bernard shoot himself, in the background while Ford was walking out.

I don't still have the latest episode on the DVR, so I can't go and say with certainty what we saw. My recollection was we heard a shot and saw a body fall down with Ford walking off with all the cockiness and lack of foresight of a villain from Adam West Batman after he put the Caped Crusader and the Boy Wonder in a seemingly inescapble death trap.

We didn't see the actual body of Bernard no longer functioning with a pool of blood around it.

At least a couple outs exist IMO:

1. Bernard managed to resist Ford's command well enough to fake his death by firing the gun and falling down.

2. Bernard didn't fully resist Ford's command but shot himself in a "non-fatal" part of his head, such that he can be patched up either by himself or Maeve or someone.

3. Some other form of deus ex machina -- perhaps poor lobotomized Clementine was able to intervene somehow.

Does anyone remember the literal wording of Ford's command? Because it made me think of Jessica Jones, whose main adversary could make pretty much anyone do anything he wanted. But a couple times he told people to do something and they were able to thwart what he really wanted by parsing his command to them. Maybe Bernard was able to do the same thing here, and cut his strings.

[Lingo]

8 hours ago, blackwing said:

I'm still confused, and when the season is done and all is revealed, I do hope that there is a concise and easy-to-understand explanation of the timelines.   So Dolores/William/Logan has always been in the past?  When Dolores escaped from Logan and ran to the church, did that become present day somewhere along the way?  Because how is it that Man in Black shows up if he is present day William?  At what point did it shift from past to present?

There is a scene where Dolores is running away from the Confederados in the night, and suddenly she stops and realizes she doesn't hear anyone chasing her, she actually doesn't hear anything at all. And she looks down at her shirt and realizes there's no stab wound. That's the point in her scenes where it switches from past to present. Present Dolores is also running around out there, remembering her past and getting it confused with the present.

8 hours ago, CofCinci said:

It's not just you.  Many of the 'fan' theories were posted on Reddit early on by day-old accounts with high quality pictures.  Each time those posts were questioned, the mods would delete.  The mods aggressively deleted spoilers/leaks too.  HBO shut down production of this series midway through the season because they were worried that the series would be too confusing.  There has been viral marketing in the guise of 'fan theories' to fill in the gaps that the casual viewer can fall into.

I think there's no reason to think that the source of any of the accurate speculation is from leaks from the show itself, and frankly I find that idea insulting to the fans. There's a bunch of fans out there (hundreds? thousands?) with plenty of time on their hands and instant access to all the episodes at any time (hell, I took all of last week off and spent most of it arguing about the stories I read and watch with people on the internet! I am one of these people with no life!). You have the combined collective brain power of the entire internet, looking at the work of a man (Nolan) known for writing and producing stories with tricky narratives (e.g. Memento, the Prestige, etc). And the clues have been there from the beginning. It's no surprise that people working together on the internet figured this all out very early on. There was a moment early on, well before Episode 7, in which Ford told Bernard something like "I know everything that goes on in that head of yours" and that set off alarm bells in my mind. (Figurative alarm bells, mind you. I swear I'm not a bot!)

2 hours ago, Bnwcat said:

I don't understand why Dolores wasn't "awake" at the beginning of the season when she was dragged to the barn by the MIB. Did she gain awareness with William, lose it somehow, and then regain it 30 years later? It seems weird that she would go through all of this and then forget everything until the MIB comes along again. I must be missing something. Can anyone help?

It does indeed appear that past-Dolores will have gone through all of her adventures, seemingly for nothing. There is almost definitely some tragic ending for past-Dolores waiting to be revealed in the final episode. Most likely, Ford discovers her awakening consciousness, or some other park operators decide that she is malfunctioning (hopefully involving Logan's death in some way); either way, her memories are probably "erased" and she is tragically put back on her loop for another 30 years. It will be a bitter ending to that story, but we can at least still hold out hope that present-Dolores does not meet the same fate.

 

Other thoughts: That really precarious situation that Angela and Wyatt's gang left the MIB in really made me sit up and take notice. Was that the first time MIB's life was ever truly in danger? He did look quite alarmed by this situation (though perhaps not as completely panicked as someone truly facing death for the first time might act). I thought the trap was quite clever. We know that the hosts are programmed to be unable to kill guests directly, and also they have Samaritan Reflexes to prevent other forms of death. But I thought that perhaps Angela et al. had cleverly devised a trap that could kill the MIB indirectly. After all, all they did was tie a noose around his neck, tied the other end to a horse, and left him breathing. And that horse did take off and start to hang him? If MIB didn't get the knife (and Charlotte wasn't around), would he have died? Would the horse have backed down? Would the park operators or another host have intervened? Anyway I thought it was a hint that perhaps some of the hosts have become clever enough to find a way to kill guests by indirect methods.

I'm still holding out hope that Arnold faked his death somehow (not least because it would give Jeffrey Wright at least one role for next season). Perhaps he just programmed Dolores to think she killed him. Perhaps he even built his own robot double that she killed, and has been hiding somewhere in the park since then. Less plausibly, I also want to believe still-living Arnold stopped robot Bernard from killing Elsie, and together they lured Stubbs into that same remote area of the park so that they could all plan a rebellion against Ford together. And even less plausibly, that robot Bernard was simply acting his way through that last scene and faked his "suicide." But if that were the case, I'm not sure how/why Bernard would fall under Ford's spell again and be forced to kill Theresa. Unless they made a robot Theresa at the last minute and faked her death too!  No no no, probably not....

Also, in the scene at night in which Dolores escapes and William tells her to run away and he'll find her later, did anyone else think that William's voice sounded strange and dubbed over in that moment? To me, it sounded weird and different; in fact, I may be wrong on this, but it sounded to me much like the voice that Dolores has been hearing in her head all season (the one that says "Remember" and stuff like that). Which makes me think that somehow, everything that's happened to present-day Dolores was intentionally caused by MIB/William somehow. I know it's been said here in this forum before, but perhaps he did something to her in that barn in Episode one other than raping her, that triggered her memories. And he planted the photo for her dad to find. And he buried the gun for Dolores to find. Maybe? I don't know.

[arc]

Personally, I kind of doubt Angela genuinely endangered TMIB. Seems to me like everything she's been doing is part of Ford's narrative, not really seriously improvised. 

[phoenyx]

6 hours ago, arc said:

Personally, I kind of doubt Angela genuinely endangered TMIB. Seems to me like everything she's been doing is part of Ford's narrative, not really seriously improvised. 

I think she did, but she had to do it in such a way that she atleast wouldn't be directly responsible for his death- if MiB had been a bit slow on waking up or cutting the rope, I really think he would have died via being hanged.

 

23 hours ago, PreviouslyTV said:

Really, though, this episode is hella smart and exciting.

View the full article

Agreed, and good article :-)

20 hours ago, dgpolo said:

I am left feeling that instead of fan theories what we are experiencing are leaks, either unofficial by someone on the inside who likes seeing the arguments engendered by the leaked info, or official by production to whip up interest in the show. I hope it is not that because I would feel used, it just seems too many theories have been too 'right on' to be completely believable.

Personally, I like to think it's just because we are just so dang intelligent :-). I can't help but chuckle at an explanation on reddit- something along the lines that if you guess everything under the sun, -some- of the guessed things are bound to be right :-p. 

[LadyPenelope]

I love the fact that all of the reveals are guessable - it means they make logical sense rather than being randomly thrown at the audience to surprise us. For example, since Bernard was revealed to be a host I thought that he had to be a copy of Arnold, because that's the only way those scenes of him and Dolores make sense. Bernard wouldn't be trying to bring Dolores to consciousness and hiding that from Ford - he can only do what Ford has programmed him to do - so it had to be somebody who looked like him, and Arnold is the obvious choice. I don't feel cheated that I guessed it in advance (and I certainly haven't been freeze framing or making notes; I haven't even rewatched any episodes), I feel satisfied that it's been well set up. 

On a different note, I adore Maeve and Hector. I don't care that much about Dolores/William/MIB, but my god do I want those two to live happily ever after, having hot robot sex for all eternity. 

[Gobi]

15 hours ago, numbnut said:

That's not a narrative cheat or a flaw. It's a smooth transition to hide information (the two timelines) until the dramatic reveal, the same as when Arnold and Dolores's conversation about the newcomers cuts to Teddy arriving on a train as a "guest" -- Teddy's truth is hidden until it's revealed that he's a host. It would limit the element of surprise if every fact is stated up front. The plot points would be too easy to predict.

The reason it bothers me,  and it's by no means a deal breaker for me, is that we were not shown something that must have been important. Dolores went off her loop in the past, and a deputy was sent to retrieve her; William intervened, and she was able to continue the journey with him. Dolores goes off her loop in the present, and a deputy is sent to retrieve her. Nonetheless, she was able to continue her journey. What happened, how was she able to stay off her loop in the present? She wasn't with a guest who could intervene. If she tried to disobey the deputy, a team would have been sent after her, as happened to Maeve.

My only theory is that someone else must have intervened. Bernard? Arnold? Maybe Ford, after all he did say "Far be from me to get in the way of a voyage of self-discovery."

Edited November 29, 2016 by Gobi
Spelling

[Door]

7 hours ago, jeansheridan said:

My work has one creepy storage room.  Not 83 floors of abandoned mess.  Seems very odd. And Elsie was in an abandoned theater. Why abandon assets?

To my understanding, the 83 floors encompass most of the Westworld "working" complex. We saw a few floors built into a canyon but those are likely only executive work areas. The bulk of the facility is underground, underneath the park. Thus, there are at least 83 basements, or subterranean levels, but not 83 floors of abandoned mess. I do consider it wasteful that they have ANY floors of abandoned mess but that's fairly common. I know hospitals, for example, sometimes have unused wings or floors for various reasons. Come to think of it, several theme parks I've been to also have abandoned rides/areas - and those are top level, guest-facing areas! Who knows how derelict things get behind the scenes! lol

 

I feel pretty confident that poor Bernard will return. Ford said that he and Bernard had been at this point multiple times; had nearly the same exact confrontation many times before. I imagine a lot of those confrontations ended in using the backdoor code to get Bernard to kill himself. One of the saddest parts of this scene was Bernard's dawning horror while asking how many times he'd been rolled back. I can only hope for Bernard's sake that when he comes back around, he will either remember more easily or perhaps encounter Maeve who will counter-program him/ set him back on the sentient path.

Edited November 29, 2016 by Door

[Ellaria]

7 hours ago, jeansheridan said:

I still don't understand how there can be these massive abandoned sub-basements.  Why is the morgue so remote and unsanitary for expensive pieces of macinery?  My work has one creepy storage room.  Not 83 floors of abandoned mess.  Seems very odd. And Elsie was in an abandoned theater. Why abandon assets?

It did not occur to me that Angela is spouting Ford's ideas.  Interesting.   And poor Teddy.  James Marsden deserves better. 

Agree on the dark, dreary sub basements with puddles of water everywhere. I'm not sure that I would travel down there alone. It is going to be great fun when the retired hosts in cold storage start marching around down there causing mayhem.

5 hours ago, Lingo said:

It does indeed appear that past-Dolores will have gone through all of her adventures, seemingly for nothing. There is almost definitely some tragic ending for past-Dolores waiting to be revealed in the final episode. Most likely, Ford discovers her awakening consciousness, or some other park operators decide that she is malfunctioning (hopefully involving Logan's death in some way); either way, her memories are probably "erased" and she is tragically put back on her loop for another 30 years. It will be a bitter ending to that story, but we can at least still hold out hope that present-Dolores does not meet the same fate...

...I'm still holding out hope that Arnold faked his death somehow (not least because it would give Jeffrey Wright at least one role for next season). Perhaps he just programmed Dolores to think she killed him. Perhaps he even built his own robot double that she killed, and has been hiding somewhere in the park since then. Less plausibly, I also want to believe still-living Arnold stopped robot Bernard from killing Elsie, and together they lured Stubbs into that same remote area of the park so that they could all plan a rebellion against Ford together. And even less plausibly, that robot Bernard was simply acting his way through that last scene and faked his "suicide." But if that were the case, I'm not sure how/why Bernard would fall under Ford's spell again and be forced to kill Theresa. Unless they made a robot Theresa at the last minute and faked her death too!  No no no, probably not....

Dolores' past arc seems headed towards tragedy and disappointment. I've believed for a few weeks now that she will be involved in Logan's death. And, if so, that may have a strong effect on William/MIB and his future actions and interest in the park. Frankly, the claim that a host cannot kill a guest is preposterous so I am looking forward to seeing how it plays out.

Jeffrey Wright cannot be gone from this show. Not-dead Arnold would be an interesting twist but probably unlikely because Ford seems to know everything...

26 minutes ago, Door said:

I feel pretty confident that poor Bernard will return. Ford said that he and Bernard had been at this point multiple times; had nearly the same exact confrontation many times before. I imagine a lot of those confrontations ended in using the backdoor code to get Bernard to kill himself. One of the saddest parts of this scene was Bernard's dawning horror while asking how many times he'd been rolled back. I can only hope for Bernard's sake that when he comes back around, he will either remember more easily or perhaps encounter Maeve who will counter-program him/ set him back on the sentient path.

...except Maeve's awakening. If Bernard comes back, I want him to be on the sentient path (great phrase) perhaps assisting Maeve behind the scenes. At some point, Ford has to face the horror of what he has created.

Edited November 29, 2016 by Ellaria Sand

[Netfoot]

9 hours ago, Bnwcat said:

I don't understand why Dolores wasn't "awake" at the beginning of the season when she was dragged to the barn by the MIB. Did she gain awareness with William, lose it somehow, and then regain it 30 years later? It seems weird that she would go through all of this and then forget everything until the MIB comes along again. I must be missing something. Can anyone help?

That is one of my biggest annoyances.  We see signs of emergence/transcendence in Dolores early in the season, in William's company -- supposedly 30 years ago.  We see similar glitches of emergence/transcendence in Dolores in the company of TMIB -- presumably 30 years later.  So, am I to believe that emergence/transcendence stalled?  Went nowhere for 30 years?  

It seems cruel of the writers to condemn Dolores to 30 years of sensing the horror of her true reality, yet being unable to improve upon it; forced to endure it.  All so they can introduce their clever, two-timeline, script trickery!

[Netfoot]

9 hours ago, Goatherd said:

It does seem like you're not enjoying it.

Not true.  I think it's fantastic!  But when I said it "isn't all that great after all" I was referring to the writing, which has given us what I consider to be holes in the plot.   

Yes, it's a show for the modern age.  But I don't believe that the show should introduce inconsistencies that can only be answered by visiting the website (for example).  So, if you show me someone being killed, then later show me them alive, I shouldn't have to resort to Twatter to discover "it was his twin brother" or what ever the explanation is.  Because I choose not to be a Twit, and I am banned/blocked from the website.

I feel that the show should be consistent in and of itself.  And while acknowledging that a finale episode remains to be aired, I have to say that certain inconsistencies exist.  Therefore, let me rephrase my earlier comment:  The show is great, but does have it's imperfections.

[CouchTater]

While I also enjoy Maeve and Hector together, I thought their "love amongst the flames" scene was overwrought and silly. The hokeyness of it wasn't worthy of my current favorite show!

As far as fans' early guesses being too on-the-nose for some: having read the many multitudes of every plausible and implausible idea that my Westworld brethren came up with on the web, I'm going with the broken clock is right twice a day theory. If the Internet collectively guesses everything, at some point the Internet will be right!

I applaud those who noticed changing logos, cans, and wanted posters. I saw none of those things!  Bravo!!

Edited November 29, 2016 by CouchTater

[jeansheridan]

Quote

is that we were not shown something that must have been important. 

I think we may have but episodes later.  Ford is working with the engineers in Escalante.  He decides not to tear down the village.  He is walking around and sees the maze carved into a table.  

This triggers Ford to look at Arnold's notebook. Ford seems surprised to see the carving.  

I think whatever voice is talking to Dolores is also helping her along.  Running interference.   Elsie did say it looked like someone was recently transmitting to the old hosts from the theater.  

[CouchTater]

And who else has been monkeying with Maeve's code, pre-Felix?  I don't remember seeing any theories on that.  

[Hanahope]

I'm going to guess that whatever Arnold did with Dolores, or because she got a little extra attention, she had triggering memories when she went on her trip with William.  Perhaps it was because of how traumatic the experience was previously in the village, with her killing Arnold.  I think that when Dolores saw herself dead in the river, that was her after the William trip, she got stabbed, ran away, and was eventually found in the river.  Something happens between William and Logan, perhaps when William sees Dolores in the river, dead, he reacts badly and Logan dies, aka "the incident."

In order to prevent another "incident", i.e. someone else falling in love with Dolores (and her with him), Ford reprogrammed Teddy to take the "William" spot, which worked for 30 years.  

But with the reveries, the rape by MIB, Teddy got reprogrammed again, in connection with the new Wyatt storyline and wasn't there for a loop, and the "violent devices" phrase, Dolores sortof 'woke up' again and redid her full William journey.

[Cthulhudrew]

35 minutes ago, CouchTater said:

And who else has been monkeying with Maeve's code, pre-Felix?  I don't remember seeing any theories on that.  

"These violent delights have violent ends." - Dolores to Maeve, episode 2.

[DarkRaichu]

2 hours ago, Netfoot said:

That is one of my biggest annoyances.  We see signs of emergence/transcendence in Dolores early in the season, in William's company -- supposedly 30 years ago.  We see similar glitches of emergence/transcendence in Dolores in the company of TMIB -- presumably 30 years later.  So, am I to believe that emergence/transcendence stalled?  Went nowhere for 30 years?  

It seems cruel of the writers to condemn Dolores to 30 years of sensing the horror of her true reality, yet being unable to improve upon it; forced to endure it.  All so they can introduce their clever, two-timeline, script trickery!

I thought it was explained in 1st episode that the Dolores especially got wiped and re-wiped multiple times she was practically brand new.  She did not remember any of her past up until the reverries codes were introduced.  The reverries brought back past memories and from what Clementine demonstrated in ep7, the reverries accessed and brought back more than just main memory of the hosts.  

[numbnut]

5 hours ago, Gobi said:

11 hours ago, numbnut said:

That's not a narrative cheat or a flaw. It's a smooth transition to hide information (the two timelines) until the dramatic reveal, the same as when Arnold and Dolores's conversation about the newcomers cuts to Teddy arriving on a train as a "guest" -- Teddy's truth is hidden until it's revealed that he's a host. It would limit the element of surprise if every fact is stated up front. The plot points would be too easy to predict.

The reason it bothers me,  and it's by no means a deal breaker for me, is that we were not shown something that must have been important. Dolores went off her loop in the past, and a deputy was sent to retrieve her; William intervened, and she was able to continue the journey with him. Dolores goes off her loop in the present, and a deputy is sent to retrieve her. Nonetheless, she was able to continue her journey. What happened, how was she able to stay off her loop in the present? She wasn't with a host who could intervene. If she tried to disobey the deputy, a team would have been sent after her, as happened to Maeve.

My only theory is that someone else must have intervened. Bernard? Arnold? Maybe Ford, after all he did say "Far be from me to get in the way of a voyage of self-discovery."

When Stubbs was informed that Dolores was off-loop (in present-day), he couldn't clarify her activity because of the chaos caused by Ford's new storyline, so no host was dispatched to stop her. Instead of the deputy interaction, we now see Dolores talking to the girl and seeing a maze drawn in the dirt before she continues on her quest.

3 hours ago, Ellaria Sand said:

Jeffrey Wright cannot be gone from this show. Not-dead Arnold would be an interesting twist but probably unlikely because Ford seems to know everything...except Maeve's awakening.

Since Ford does seem to know everything in his God role, he could be watching Maeve (just to see how far she can get) before stopping her at the last moment. While going back to square one is fitting for a show about loops, it would suck to see Maeve struck down in the finale. We already have a depressing cliffhanger with Bernard's fate, so I would prefer an exciting cliffhanger for Maeve.

1 hour ago, CouchTater said:

And who else has been monkeying with Maeve's code, pre-Felix?  I don't remember seeing any theories on that.

There was some discussion about Arnold faking his death and sending commands to the hosts. Dolores's memory of killing Arnold could be implanted by Arnold just like Teddy's memory of Wyatt was implanted by Ford.

I'm not clear on why Ford invented the Wyatt character, but I think Ford orchestrated the church town's critical failure to kill Arnold and his sentient hosts, so he could be re-creating the massacre to kill the MiB.

Edited November 29, 2016 by numbnut

[DarkRaichu]

47 minutes ago, CouchTater said:

And who else has been monkeying with Maeve's code, pre-Felix?  I don't remember seeing any theories on that.  

I originally thought it was Theresa / Delos who was trying to bring chaos to Westworld to oust Ford.  However, it could be Ford himself who did the changes as part of his new narrative.

Those pre-Theresa transmissions that Elsie found (and described as from Arnold) had to originate from someone.  

Here is my theory (spoiler-d in case it is wrong :P ) :

Spoiler

 

Arnold's memory still "lives" within the older hosts (Dolores, Maeve, Angela, etc) and each older host got controlled / "possessed" by Arnold at various time and activated the dormant memories in each other with the catchphrase "violent delights.."

Ford realized something was wrong with the hosts when he saw Maeve's outburst a year ago when her daughter was shot by MiB.  Ford took the chance and created reverries to accelerate the process of self discovery/flashing out Arnold's codes (ie. he could not access Arnold's code for 30 years per conversation with Dolores).  
This means Maeve's journey is part of Ford's new narrative, ie her self discovery is under parameters set by Ford.   So Felix is not what he seems.

Meanwhile Dolores + MiB somehow unlock the entirety of Arnold's memory (ie. the prize for completing the maze).  Oh and look who's body just becomes available for new memory :P  Boom! Arnold's memory is uploaded to Bernard's body thus "reviving" Arnold by the end of season 2.

 

At least that's how I would have plotted the narration :P

[Hanahope]

35 minutes ago, DarkRaichu said:

I thought it was explained in 1st episode that the Dolores especially got wiped and re-wiped multiple times she was practically brand new.

I thought he said she'd been rebuilt so many times, she was practically brand new.

[blackwing]

I guess I don't understand why they need to keep hundreds of deactivated hosts in the 80th sub-basement.  I can only surmise it's for titillation, and that the producers get a kick out of stripping hundreds of extras naked and oiling them up.  There doesn't seem to be any real purpose for it in Westworld.  When they decide they want to deactivate a host, they appear to give it a lobotomy and then send it to storage.  Why?  Didn't they also say that certain bodies were incinerated?   My understanding was that the hosts got deactivated because they were having problems or issues, like how Abernathy was acting up.  If the host body was still viable, why not just give it a new programme and new story directive?  That appears to have been what has happened to Maeve and Dolores over the years.  They appear to be constantly building new bodies so I guess I don't see the need for them to ever decide that one that they rejected would ever be used again.   "Hey, it's Malfunctioning Milk-Drinking Shooter.  This one went completely nuts.  But let's give it another chance and see if it happens again."

To me it seems like the only purpose is so that eventually when all of the hosts get sentient, the viewers get to see lots of naked bodies running around.  As it is, right now, it seems like something out of a horror movie.  I don't understand why none of the employees bother to turn the lights on when they go down there.  It's dark, there's dripping water, and hundreds of naked robots staring straight ahead.  I could easily see the stereotypical hapless horror film ingenue wandering down there, only to realize too late that one of those robots is murderously alive.

[okerry]

On 11/27/2016 at 10:05 PM, 3girlsforus said:

 

(QuoteBot not working this morning)

CouchTater said: While I also enjoy Maeve and Hector together, I thought their "love amongst the flames" scene was overwrought and silly. The hokeyness of it wasn't worthy of my current favorite show!

Remember, though: Maeve was told that in order to get the explosive out of her C6 vertebra so that she could leave the park, she'd need a complete rebuild. Being most consumed by fire would leave her needing a complete rebuild. It was the first thing I thought of when I saw that scene.

Maeve knows she's died hundreds of times. She's great at it. And now she's found the way to die that will give her the life she really wants.

Betcha. 

[DarkRaichu]

2 hours ago, blackwing said:

I guess I don't understand why they need to keep hundreds of deactivated hosts in the 80th sub-basement.  I can only surmise it's for titillation, and that the producers get a kick out of stripping hundreds of extras naked and oiling them up.  There doesn't seem to be any real purpose for it in Westworld.  When they decide they want to deactivate a host, they appear to give it a lobotomy and then send it to storage.  Why?  Didn't they also say that certain bodies were incinerated?   My understanding was that the hosts got deactivated because they were having problems or issues, like how Abernathy was acting up.  If the host body was still viable, why not just give it a new programme and new story directive?  That appears to have been what has happened to Maeve and Dolores over the years.  They appear to be constantly building new bodies so I guess I don't see the need for them to ever decide that one that they rejected would ever be used again.   "Hey, it's Malfunctioning Milk-Drinking Shooter.  This one went completely nuts.  But let's give it another chance and see if it happens again."

To me it seems like the only purpose is so that eventually when all of the hosts get sentient, the viewers get to see lots of naked bodies running around.  As it is, right now, it seems like something out of a horror movie.  I don't understand why none of the employees bother to turn the lights on when they go down there.  It's dark, there's dripping water, and hundreds of naked robots staring straight ahead.  I could easily see the stereotypical hapless horror film ingenue wandering down there, only to realize too late that one of those robots is murderously alive.

Hmm, what if these are supposed to be a kin to Terracotta army that guard the Chinese emperor's tomb? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terracotta_Army

Perhaps Arnold's body is in the drawer above old creaky Bill's and those defected hosts are supposed to be guarding Arnold's body.  This would explain why Ford loves visiting there.  Meaning all this time Ford's conversations with Bill were really Ford talking to Arnold.  

Edited November 29, 2016 by DarkRaichu

[Stanner]

20 hours ago, arc said:

No, hosts ignore all modern day things. This was confirmed during Hector's checkup when he was shown a variety of nondescript photos of modern life (like a factory) and didn't find them remarkable.

edit: went back and looked. It was part of the "Self Awareness Protocol". The three images were: clean room factory worker (?), bullet train, and a Shanghai skyline. Hector's response: "they don't look like anything to me."

You're right and I had completely forgotten about Hector's interview. Kind of makes you wonder if Papa has seen Juliette before? All he asks is "Where is she? Have you ever seen anything like this before?" not who is she. 

Probably not, but I'm suspicious of everything in this show.

[arc]

1 hour ago, okerry said:

Remember, though: Maeve was told that in order to get the explosive out of her C6 vertebra so that she could leave the park, she'd need a complete rebuild. Being most consumed by fire would leave her needing a complete rebuild. It was the first thing I thought of when I saw that scene.

But how would they hack the rebuild to not include the explosive charge in the spine? Can't be the body shop techs, they do repairs, not rebuilds.

[huahaha]

1 hour ago, okerry said:

CouchTater said: While I also enjoy Maeve and Hector together, I thought their "love amongst the flames" scene was overwrought and silly. The hokeyness of it wasn't worthy of my current favorite show!

Remember, though: Maeve was told that in order to get the explosive out of her C6 vertebra so that she could leave the park, she'd need a complete rebuild. Being most consumed by fire would leave her needing a complete rebuild. It was the first thing I thought of when I saw that scene.

Maeve knows she's died hundreds of times. She's great at it. And now she's found the way to die that will give her the life she really wants.. 

I get why Maeve does the super-dramatic, might-as-well-have-sex-on-my-way-out deaths. But why does Hector keep going along with it? This is the second time she's given him 15-seconds of information, and he's been willing to die screwing rather than avoiding bullets or, I don't know, walking out of a burning tent.

[driedfruit]

On 11/28/2016 at 8:00 AM, kellog010 said:

I had long suspected that Delores was in the present reliving her past. It was great to get that confirmation. 

I did as well, but I still wonder how it is that no one is coming to check up on her since she has apparently ditched her narrative. Or has she?

I've seen a Charlotte/Charlie theory connecting the two. I do wonder if Arnold's kid had cancer but never died and that inspired Ford to create a dead Charlie for Bernard. Otherwise the reveal was obvious since the episode we saw the actor reading Lewis Caroll with Delores, but fantastic to watch nevertheless. 

Do all hosts have the potential to become conscious or only the older models? Ford created Bernard, but the most complex coding was taken from Arnold, which means his coding continues past death.  

 

Quote

I get why Maeve does the super-dramatic, might-as-well-have-sex-on-my-way-out deaths. But why does Hector keep going along with it? This is the second time she's given him 15-seconds of information, and he's been willing to die screwing rather than avoiding bullets or, I don't know, walking out of a burning tent

Because in those 15secs she gives him irrefutable proof that their existence is a joke. If anything would make a person want to screw and kill themselves, it's that. 

Edited November 29, 2016 by driedfruit

[AuntTora]

Quote

I guess I don't understand why they need to keep hundreds of deactivated hosts in the 80th sub-basement.  I can only surmise it's for titillation, and that the producers get a kick out of stripping hundreds of extras naked and oiling them up.

I think it's so we, the viewers, wonder every time -- is this going to be the time they all come alive and attack the humans? 

[jane1978]

Sorry, but I´m disappointed that the different timelines theory was confirmed. I think it´s typical Nolan. He always tries to make the story look so much smarter than it really is. But it´s not hard to make any story seem complicated and full of twists when you take some pretty straighforward storylines, cuts them into little pieces, shuffle them around and then play all together never making clear to what story each piece belongs. It´s exciting trying to put the pieces back together and follow the various hints but beside that there actually happened very little in these 9 episodes and what happened is not exactly without plot holes. At the beginning it seemed they will atleast try to act like the park is real and has some clear rules and control. But then we´ve got the slaughter-house worker with superadmin rights, real people being murdered left and right with nobody noticing, the security team with absolutely zero idea of what´s going on in the park and hosts who first seems to be only a little more advanced than the AI of NPC characters in RPG games, yet suddenly have ability to wander completely off their loops and into others storylines and still follow their never programmed goals. 

And of course, the biggest cheat of all. Dolores apparently not only going alone through all the places she visited during her past adventure with William, but even getting exactly the same clothes she got 30 years ago during the long canceled storyline. 

Which makes me wonder what are their plans for the second and later seasons. Now, when both of their main tricks are out and there is almost nobody human who can be revealed as host left, they will actually have to tell a real story, not just season long flashbacks.

[Rumsy4]

1 hour ago, driedfruit said:

I did as well, but I still wonder how it is that no one is coming to check up on her since she has apparently ditched her narrative. Or has she?

I'm wondering that as well... What if her pilgrimage "home" is part of the new narrative of Ford's? Maybe he wants her to attain consciousness and rebel. 

Quote

Do all hosts have the potential to become conscious or only the older models? Ford created Bernard, but the most complex coding was taken from Arnold, which means his coding continues past death.  

I think all hosts have the potential. But the older hosts can actually hear Arnold in their programming, so maybe it's easier for them?? Or maybe Dolores was the only one who didn't malfunction after hearing Arnold's inner-voice. It's unclear.

[Gobi]

5 hours ago, numbnut said:

When Stubbs was informed that Dolores was off-loop (in present-day), he couldn't clarify her activity because of the chaos caused by Ford's new storyline, so no host was dispatched to stop her. Instead of the deputy interaction, we now see Dolores talking to the girl and seeing a maze drawn in the dirt before she continues on her quest.

That's an excellent explanation, and I think you're right, although it's not the impression given by the dialogue. After mentioning Ford's narrative, Stubbs goes on to say:

"Flag her with Behavior. They can pull her today. Make sure everythings checking out."

Then, in the next scene, we see the deputy intervening. We never got a scene where Stubbs or someone else says that Behavior didn't get around to pulling her, nor if they didn't, there was no later scene with Stubbs being told that Dolores is still off her loop.

In retrospect, we can guess what happened. However, there was nothing shown that would make me think that Behavior dropped the ball, and the scene with the deputy was from 30 years earlier.

At that point, I did believe that Dolores was having flashbacks, and that is how I interpreted the part with Lawrence's daughter drawing the maze.

[DarkRaichu]

12 minutes ago, Gobi said:

That's an excellent explanation, and I think you're right, although it's not the impression given by the dialogue. After mentioning Ford's narrative, Stubbs goes on to say:

"Flag her with Behavior. They can pull her today. Make sure everythings checking out."

Then, in the next scene, we see the deputy intervening. We never got a scene where Stubbs or someone else says that Behavior didn't get around to pulling her, nor if they didn't, there was no later scene with Stubbs being told that Dolores is still off her loop.

In retrospect, we can guess what happened. However, there was nothing shown that would make me think that Behavior dropped the ball, and the scene with the deputy was from 30 years earlier.

At that point, I did believe that Dolores was having flashbacks, and that is how I interpreted the part with Lawrence's daughter drawing the maze.

Didn't Ford interview Dolores in this same episode?  Perhaps they did pick her up, alerted Ford about her off loop behavior, he cleared her and let her out.  Maeve was off loop to meet Hector this episode and nobody tried to get her AFTER Bernard cleared her.

Edited November 29, 2016 by DarkRaichu

[Gobi]

2 minutes ago, DarkRaichu said:

Didn't Ford interview Dolores in this same episode?  Perhaps they did pick her up, alerted Ford about her off loop behavior, he cleared her and let her out.  Maeve was off loop to meet Hector this episode and nobody tried to get her AFTER Bernard cleared her.

Ford did interview her, but after she arrived in Pariah, which was much later. And Ford is far above Behavior, hard to believe that he would be sent to check on a stray. Again, you could very well be correct, but it's asking a lot for the audience to figure that out while it's going on, especially because we saw Dolores being intercepted before the scene with Ford. And in the scene with Ford, she promised not to stray from her loop, then continued to do so.

The show might still address this. Stubbs has bigger concerns at the moment, but I could picture a scene where someone remarks that Dolores is still off her loop.

I don't want to make too big a deal about this, because for me it just amounts to a minor peeve about a terrific show.

[Rumsy4]

7 minutes ago, DarkRaichu said:

Didn't Ford interview Dolores in this same episode?  Perhaps they did pick her up, alerted Ford about her off loop behavior, he cleared her and let her out.  Maeve was off loop to meet Hector this episode and nobody tried to get her AFTER Bernard cleared her.

I think that's what happened. They did pull her in at the end of the night, and Ford cleared her. Dolores visited some of the sites of her old pilgrimage twice I think. Like the buried/resurrected Town. If she was retracing her steps from 30 years ago, that sort of makes sense. It might also explain the costume change from the Blue dress in Day 1 to the pants in Day 2. Or, Ford has changed her narrative, and travelling the old/new town is part of her new narrative. 

[DarkRaichu]

10 minutes ago, Gobi said:

Ford did interview her, but after she arrived in Pariah, which was much later. And Ford is far above Behavior, hard to believe that he would be sent to check on a stray. Again, you could very well be correct, but it's asking a lot for the audience to figure that out while it's going on, especially because we saw Dolores being intercepted before the scene with Ford. And in the scene with Ford, she promised not to stray from her loop, then continued to do so.

Heh, knowing how deliberate this show is with creative editing, he might have interviewed her at any point in her travel.  Also, it was already established Dolores was able to lie to Ford.

I agree that a few things need to be clarified to the audience though

[Ellaria]

1 hour ago, DarkRaichu said:

Didn't Ford interview Dolores in this same episode?  Perhaps they did pick her up, alerted Ford about her off loop behavior, he cleared her and let her out.  Maeve was off loop to meet Hector this episode and nobody tried to get her AFTER Bernard cleared her.

Maeve's next step is by far the moment that I am most looking forward to. I am going to guess that Ford doesn't know, mostly because I need him to not know something. "All Knowing" Ford frustrates me. I don't believe that Maeve is part of his new narrative.

[iMonrey]

Quote

You watch the show, pulling it off your DVR for a second viewing - frame by frame if necessary, visit the website (from which I am blocked, by the way), read thousands of posts on a half dozen forums, watch 50 YouTube speculation/explanation videos per week, remain glued to the appropriate twitter feed(s), stalk the Fecesbook page, and swallow all the leaks dribbled out by TPTB.  Otherwise you have no chance of being able to put it all together.  Because with all the rapid switching back and forth 30 years or so, right in the midst of scenes, it's all so complicated that you are bound to be left with apparent inconsistencies.  And the explanation for these will have slipped passed you by because you blinked.

It remains to be seen what the finale will clear up, but I'm beginning to think this show isn't all that great after all.  Too much handwaving required for the plot to make sense.

 

Just you and me, then. I was irrationally irritated with this episode in particular. Now granted, I have remained just interested enough in the show to follow it to the bitter end (of this season) but this one seemed overly pretentious and self indulgent to me. I was literally groaning out loud during the scene where Dolores walks into the church, gets into the confessional, goes down an elevator and eventually winds up in a basement. The whole thing seemed like some surreal dream and I couldn't make heads or tails out of it.

I agree with you that it's the kind of show you have to invest a lot of extra time in just to understand. I'm never going to be that interested in it. Reading thru this forum is about as much time as I'll devote to it beyond just watching it once. I know I won't be back for a second season of it.

I also agree with the above poster who pointed out that any show can seem complex if you slice it up into several timelines and make it confusing to follow by splicing it all together so you can't figure out what's going on when. 

Just because you don't understand a show doesn't mean it's smart. This show is designed to look smart - smarter, deeper, more meaningful - than it really is. The logic upon which it's based is still terribly flawed and implausible no matter how successful it is in whipping its audience into a frenzy trying to figure it all out. 

[huahaha]

5 hours ago, driedfruit said:

Because in those 15secs she gives him irrefutable proof that their existence is a joke. If anything would make a person want to screw and kill themselves, it's that. 

Were those things really irrefutable though? And even if they were, instant suicide pact? If I found out I was in some sort of simulation, I might think things over for a day or so.

[CouchTater]

7 hours ago, okerry said:

(QuoteBot not working this morning)

CouchTater said: While I also enjoy Maeve and Hector together, I thought their "love amongst the flames" scene was overwrought and silly. The hokeyness of it wasn't worthy of my current favorite show!

Remember, though: Maeve was told that in order to get the explosive out of her C6 vertebra so that she could leave the park, she'd need a complete rebuild. Being most consumed by fire would leave her needing a complete rebuild. It was the first thing I thought of when I saw that scene.

Maeve knows she's died hundreds of times. She's great at it. And now she's found the way to die that will give her the life she really wants.

Betcha. 

okerry, I get why Maeve chose fire to die. I just didn't like the way the scene was shot. It looked cheesy and very melodramatic to me. 

I'm just nitpicking. 

[jeansheridan]

Just because you don't understand a show doesn't mean it's smart. This show is designed to look smart - smarter, deeper, more meaningful - than it really is

I get your point.  I was never delighted by The Sopranos.  But I really would not have enjoyed this show without the forum.  And this is what I love about Science Fiction.  All the ideas batted around.  The what ifs or could this happen.  And I am delighted they did not do old school flashbacks.  How much more engrossing it is to experience Dolores' confusion .  

Are there plotholes?   All movies have plotholes.   I can forgive errors when a show is ambitious.  Better to be confusing than dull.

[phoenyx]

On 11/29/2016 at 8:45 PM, jeansheridan said:

Just because you don't understand a show doesn't mean it's smart. This show is designed to look smart - smarter, deeper, more meaningful - than it really is

I get your point.  I was never delighted by The Sopranos.  But I really would not have enjoyed this show without the forum.  And this is what I love about Science Fiction.  All the ideas batted around.  The what ifs or could this happen.  And I am delighted they did not do old school flashbacks.  How much more engrossing it is to experience Dolores' confusion .  

Are there plotholes?   All movies have plotholes.   I can forgive errors when a show is ambitious.  Better to be confusing than dull.

I completely agree with that. Frequently, I get the feeling that the creators of westworld are not nearly as interested in making sure that everything is logically consistent in this fictional world, so much as they are trying to express things with abstractions. Take, for instance, Maeve dying in the center of a maze in the ground. Someone asked how it got there. Perhaps it was always there? But then, why was it always there? Personally, I took the whole thing as a metaphor- that is, that the maze is not -really- a place, so much as a state of mind. So, what does it mean to be at the center of the maze, as Maeve clearly ended? MiB may well have stated it back in episode 8: 
 

Spoiler

 

The MIB's voice overplays his memory scene.

the MAN IN BLACK: In all my years coming here, I had never seen anything like it. She was alive, truly alive, if only for a moment. And that was when the maze revealed itself to me.

[Maeve picks up her dead little girl and carries her outside the house. She stumbles along into the center of a dirt clearing and then collapses with her daughter in her arms. The camera draws upward revealing Maeve and her daughter (both dead) laying in the middle of the maze drawn in the dirt.]

 

William actually said something similar about his own experience in Westworld back in episode 7:

 

Spoiler

WILLIAM: Dolores. (She slowly turns around and faces him.) I've been pretending my whole life -- pretending I don't mind -- pretending I belong. My life's built on it. And it's a good life. It's a life I've always wanted. But then I came here and I get a glimpse for a second ... of a life in which I don't have to pretend. A life in which I can be truly alive. How can I go back to pretending when I know what this feels like?

 

I've come to believe that being at the center of the maze is being truly alive, and perhaps in tune with the world (echoes of Dolores saying things like "The world is calling me" comes to mind). Arnold may have designed a maze just made for androids (thus explaining why 2 different androids have now told MiB that the maze isn't for him), but if MiB is William, I've come up with a theory as to why he's so keen on doing it anyway: he fell in love with an android, after all. Dolores is probably the first woman that he ever truly fell in love with, and even though he got married and had a daughter, a large part of him could never let her go. Now, having lost his "real world" family, he has nothing left but his memories of Dolores and his hope, however slight, that he can be redeemed by reading this final chapter of Arnold's, and proving himself worthy of his memory of Dolores.

Edited December 1, 2016 by phoenyx

[Pippin]

Well, hell's bells.  I foresee a huge problem.  Namely, what the hell am I going to watch after next week's season finale?  Damn you show, for being so bloody ... good.

I agree with Lingo.  There are a lot of very clever people on the Internet (just as there are a lot of utter twits) and when you put all of these clever people together, they will often come up with answers to questions without help from the TPTB. 

I haven't been a fan of the multiple timelines theory but after this episode I'm forced to accept it.  When Logan pulled Dolores apart and revealed her innards to be clockworks, I knew that this was taking place in the past.  And although I'm still not a fan of the William = MiB theory, his transformation this episode made it more plausible.

When Ford was talking about how the human race would basically destroy the hosts because humans are such SOBs (very true; there were several species of hominids and homo sapiens sapiens was the only one to survive, essentially because we were meaner and nastier than the others) I wondered if he really fears the opposite?  That should the hosts achieve sentience, they would first dominate and then destroy humanity?  And in doing so, become as nasty as humanity itself?  That might be one reason he keeps them on a leash; he is, in his own mind, keeping them pure and safe.  I don't think he's all that concerned about humanity.

And here's a really far-out speculation -- just for the hell of it -- Ford is an android.  He figured out a way to upload his consciousness into an android body and did so.  Why?  He had an incurable disease and wasn't ready to die.  Delos suspects that he's done this and they want the technology and that's the code they're seeking.  Can you imagine the power and money available if you have the ability to grant youth and immortality?  And it would explain why he seems to know (almost) everything that's going on; he's also plugged into the central core ... Think about it. 
 

Of course, YMMV.

:)

Edited November 30, 2016 by Pippin
Because proofreading before posting is a really, really good idea.

[ennui]

21 hours ago, numbnut said:

The plot points would be too easy to predict.

Well, it seems that all of the points have been predicted here on this forum. I thought this episode was boring. I'll have to force myself to watch next week! Although, since Dolores killed Arnold, and Ford seemed to value Arnold as a friend, I could understand why Ford sentenced Dolores to a life of rape and torture. 

Edited November 30, 2016 by ennui

[numbnut]

30 minutes ago, ennui said:

22 hours ago, numbnut said:

The plot points would be too easy to predict.

Well, it seems that all of the points have been predicted here on this forum.

Every scenario under the sun was suggested for this show's plotlines. Some theories were correct and some weren't. When a show is predictable, no guessing games are needed. Predictable is when there's no mystery -- everyone can see every plot point coming from a mile away.

Edited November 30, 2016 by numbnut

[DarkRaichu]

1 hour ago, Pippin said:

And here's a really far-out speculation -- just for the hell of it -- Ford is an android.  He figured out a way to upload his consciousness into an android body and did so.  Why?  He had an incurable disease and wasn't ready to die.  Delos suspects that he's done this and they want the technology and that's the code they're seeking.  Can you imagine the power and money available if you have the ability to grant youth and immortality?  And it would explain why he seems to know (almost) everything that's going on; he's also plugged into the central core ... Think about it. 

Wait, are you saying Ford = the Borg Queen ???? :D :D :D

[Willowy]

Resistance is futile.

[DarkRaichu]

32 minutes ago, numbnut said:

Every scenario under the sun was suggested for this show's plotlines. Some theories were correct and some weren't. When a show is predictable, no guessing games are needed. Predictable is when there's no mystery -- everyone can see every plot point coming from a mile away.

Yeah, half the fun of the show is throwing my 2-3 theories per episode to this forum's wall to see which one sticks ;)

[ACW]

9 hours ago, driedfruit said:

I've seen a Charlotte/Charlie theory connecting the two. I do wonder if Arnold's kid had cancer but never died and that inspired Ford to create a dead Charlie for Bernar

Huh.  I'm embarrassed not to have noticed the similarity in names.  It does seem to support my theory that Charlotte's position is due to being related to Arnold.