OK...What's Next?

[DollEyes]

On 12/19/2016 at 0:48 PM, Blergh said:

OK, perhaps I'm shouting down an empty well but I have to vent somewhere:

 

 We ALL have our own POVs re what we each think of each candidate and I'm adding nothing at this re what I think of any particular candidate. However; I think we all need to step back and stop demonizing every other person to the point of completely dehumanizing for either supporting one's opposing candidate or not emphatically support one's own. Bigotry is like hatred in that it corrodes the vessel it stores far more than the object it's intended to be poured upon. That's NOT to say that there aren't individual supporters (or detractors) who deserve to be called out for their words and actions but to vilify any large segment of the populace and tarring them with broad brushes winds up not only needlessly infuriating those who do NOT deserve to be called out but also cheats oneself from getting to know others' complexities and considering the possibility of mutually beneficial friendships. Citing the excuse that 'the others' are bigots and/or have persecuted one's side is NOT a valid justification to do the same as virtually every bigot believes that they've been persecuted and  that they're doing so for 'the right reasons' to others.  None of us are perfect but why can't we at least consider what each person individually has to offer before condemning them. Isn't being human enough of a reason to treat others as humans and consider in this increasingly troubled world that we could use all positive imput possible from all sides to help each other out?

I respectfully disagree. There's no reasoning with Trump because Trump isn't reasonable, to put it mildly. As he has proven time and time again, Trump's not only unreasonable; he's dangerous. He proved it with the birther stuff, he proved it during the primaries, he proved it in the election, he's proving it in the transition and he'll keep proving it as long as he's in office. I've watched the Trump campaign from the start and time and time again, I've found rational Trump supporters to be the exception, not the rule. Those who aren't just enabling Trump's hate are also perpetrating it in his name, whether it's through name-calling, vandalism, harassment or full-fledged violence. I'm not saying that my side is "perfect," by any means (case in point: the jerks who vandalized property during peaceful protests and the assholes who made death threats to Republican members of the Electoral College), but Hillary supporters as a whole aren't the ones who have been bullying people of color-including children-harassing Muslims nor taunting reporters for just trying to do their jobs. I don't care what the lot of Trump supporters have to say because as far as I'm concerned, they've not only got nothing to say that I want to hear, they've got nothing to say that's worth hearing. Trump's doubling down on his allegiances to both Russia and the far-right, both domestic and foreign, only makes me double down in my contempt for him.  Re the last comment, just being human isn't enough for me. I've got no respect for anyone who doesn't respect the humanity of others just because they're a different race, religion, gender or sexuality than mine. Trump's disrespect for anyone who's not just like him unless they're following his orders is just one of the reasons why I'll always resist him and never accept him. 

[random chance]

This is not a partisan thing for me. I would take literally anyone else who ran for President over Trump. I would even take Pence, who's pretty evil in a lot of areas but at least he's not batshit crazy.

[Ocean Chick]

2 hours ago, Hanahope said:

Forgive me, but i'm starting to have second thoughts on Trump's muslim ban.  I really really want to support peaceful people who worship however they want (although frankly, I'm fundamentally against any religion that treats women as second class citizens - and yes, that applies to more than just muslims, some jewish and christian religions act similarly), but with almost every attack going on in the world being caused by the radical islamists or wannabees, it gets harder and harder to not take a hard stance against all of them because of the few rotten apples spoiling the whole barrel.  government/security can't prevent all of the bad apples from slipping through the cracks of vetting, whether its because of insufficient funding/people to do the vetting, or the bad apples have learned how to lie well, more and more I'm starting to agree with those that say just no to everyone.  

I feel bad about these feelings, but I also am tired of having concerns every time I leave my house.  And I know that's not going to completely stop all attacks, but a reduction is preferable to an escalation.

So what do you think we should do with all our home-grown white male terrorists?  You know the ones - the Unibomber.  Timothy McVeigh.  The Columbine shooters.  The Sandyhook shooter.  The Aurora theater shooter.  Should we ban American born while males?  Ship them to some other country at birth?  Round them up into "re-education/relocation camps" for life? 

[Padma]

10 minutes ago, Ocean Chick said:

So what do you think we should do with all our home-grown white male terrorists?  You know the ones - the Unibomber.  Timothy McVeigh.  The Columbine shooters.  The Sandyhook shooter.  The Aurora theater shooter.  Should we ban American born while males?  Ship them to some other country at birth?  Round them up into "re-education/relocation camps" for life? 

Couldn't agree more. Dylan Root, admitted white supremacist, is a terrorist who killed innocent people at prayer in a Charleston church.

Unfortunately, people all over the world kill each other, some for personal reasons, some for ideological ones, some just because they're crazy and filled with anger. There are such a handful of people killing others in the U.S. because of support for ISIS or other terrorist groups. They get a lot of attention, but so do the white, mostly "Christian" men who committed the shootings above.

A ban won't solve anything and will just unfairly marginalize American Muslims. (Also, as many intelligence experts keep pointing out, Muslim communities n the U.S. are some of the best sources of intelligence.  And, abroad, many Muslims are risking their lives every day to provide much of the intelligence that has kept this country from having another 9/11. )

We don't want to demonize Muslims. It's bad enough we are associated with anti-Muslim policies already (Israel's side v. Palestinians, Pakistan and Afghanistan attacks on civilians (inadvertently, but .. still), no due process for prisoners held over a decade at Guantanamo, etc. etc.  We really, really don't need to give more people a reason to hate the United States by putting on a Muslim ban, banning thousands because we're trying to prevent one or two "bad apples". (What we SHOULD be doing is helping the people of Aleppo. That failing will tarnish Obama's legacy, more by inaction than action ever would have.  And obviously Trump cares even less about the humanitarian crisis brought about by Assad and Trump's bff.)  

[stillshimpy]

Quote

This is not a partisan thing for me. I would take literally anyone else who ran for President over Trump. I would even take Pence, who's pretty evil in a lot of areas but at least he's not batshit crazy.

 

Aside from a few, "Oh man, that sucks" morning-after scenarios, I've honestly never been alarmed by a candidate that won from an opposing party.  This isn't about being a liberal, or that I've voted the Democratic ticket my entire adult life and have some kind of sour-grapes going,  I swear this is how bad it is:  please, bring on Pence who I loath in such a huge variety of ways, who I think is dangerous in his own right and would like to reenact The Handmaid's Tale in his heart-of-hearts.   Even that scary, puritanical misogynist with his warped notions is a much better bet than Trump. 

This has nothing to do with parties and everything to do with Trump being so woefully unqualified, so completely immune to wanting to learn anything about the job he pursued for years, he presents an actual physical danger to our world.   

He has a complete inability to understand that other cultures function differently and that braying and bullying will not help anything.  That we're always on thin ice with our actual allies as it is, as many of those allies aren't actually very fond of us, for the very things that Trump embodies (arrogance, unwillingness to see the worth in anything that isn't American, self-aggrandizing boastfulness and the belief that every other culture is inferior to ours).  

Remember that Funny or Die video, If the Other Party Wins?   The back half is starting to feel decidedly real.  

[Blergh]

1 hour ago, DollEyes said:

I respectfully disagree. There's no reasoning with Trump because Trump isn't reasonable, to put it mildly. As he has proven time and time again, Trump's not only unreasonable; he's dangerous. He proved it with the birther stuff, he proved it during the primaries, he proved it in the election, he's proving it in the transition and he'll keep proving it as long as he's in office. I've watched the Trump campaign from the start and time and time again, I've found rational Trump supporters to be the exception, not the rule. Those who aren't just enabling Trump's hate are also perpetrating it in his name, whether it's through name-calling, vandalism, harassment or full-fledged violence. I'm not saying that my side is "perfect," by any means (case in point: the jerks who vandalized property during peaceful protests and the assholes who made death threats to Republican members of the Electoral College), but Hillary supporters as a whole aren't the ones who have been bullying people of color-including children-harassing Muslims nor taunting reporters for just trying to do their jobs. I don't care what the lot of Trump supporters have to say because as far as I'm concerned, they've not only got nothing to say that I want to hear, they've got nothing to say that's worth hearing. Trump's doubling down on his allegiances to both Russia and the far-right, both domestic and foreign, only makes me double down in my contempt for him.  Re the last comment, just being human isn't enough for me. I've got no respect for anyone who doesn't respect the humanity of others just because they're a different race, religion, gender or sexuality than mine. Trump's disrespect for anyone who's not just like him unless they're following his orders is just one of the reasons why I'll always resist him and never accept him. 

DollEyes,

 

 Note please that my post was directed to supporters of ALL candidates who refused to consider that supporters of other candidates could be worthy of being considered human- not the candidates themselves nor those supporters who HAD proven by words and deeds that they were heinous people. I don't disagree what you said re Mr. Trump nor the worst actions of the worst of his supporters  (and I DO agree that ANY bad deeds by ANY side deserve to be dissed -even those who may otherwise support those whom one likes). However; ALL I was saying that one shouldn't blanketly lump ALL supporters of ANY candidate (Mr. Trump, Senator Clinton, Mr. Johnson, Ms. Stein, etc.) with the deeds and actions of the worst of them instead of considering giving EACH human being a chance to prove themselves worthy or not. Yes, I admit it may be easier to lump everyone who supports someone one dislikes in   simple, dehumanized categories (and its an impulse one must resist) but one winds up cutting one's own nose to spite the others' faces  and becoming as closed-minded as one claims others are.  Why act unfairly to those whom one would hope would treat you fairly? 

[fastiller]

6 minutes ago, stillshimpy said:

Aside from a few, "Oh man, that sucks" morning-after scenarios, I've honestly never been alarmed by a candidate that won from an opposing party.  This isn't about being a liberal, or that I've voted the Democratic ticket my entire adult life and have some kind of sour-grapes going,  I swear this is how bad it is:  please, bring on Pence who I loath in such a huge variety of ways, who I think is dangerous in his own right and would like to reenact The Handmaid's Tale in his heart-of-hearts.   Even that scary, puritanical misogynist with his warped notions is a much better bet than Trump. 

<snip>

You forgot the words homophobic and troglodyte.  They'll fit anywhere in the start of that bolded sentence. 

[stillshimpy]

4 minutes ago, fastiller said:

You forgot the words homophobic and troglodyte.  They'll fit anywhere in the start of that bolded sentence. 

Yup, and about fourteen other, entirely accurate, "That man makes me want to projectile vomit" descriptors that are completely fitting and he's still better than Trump.   

Don't get me wrong, it's a terrifying thought but Twitler, the Tanger-Tool-of-Vlad, is just that bad.  

[Ocean Chick]

4 minutes ago, Blergh said:

ALL I was saying that one shouldn't blanketly lump ALL supporters of ANY candidate (Mr. Trump, Senator Clinton, Mr. Johnson, Ms. Stein, etc.) with the deeds and actions of the worst of them instead of considering giving EACH human being a chance to prove themselves worthy or not. Yes, I admit it may be easier to lump everyone who supports someone one dislikes in   simple, dehumanized categories (and its an impulse one must resist) but one winds up cutting one's own nose to spite the others' faces  and becoming as closed-minded as one claims others are.  Why act unfairly to those whom one would hope would treat you fairly? 

However, it's hard to humanize people who are willing to vote for and support other people who have been PROVEN to be racist.  Misogynistic.  Bigoted.  Greedy.  Vile.  Hateful.  And I can go on and on.  There were Germans who were voting for and supporting Hitler, who I suppose were otherwise ok humans.  Except that they were okay with Hitler and his crew killing millions of other people.  Jews.  Gays.  Gypsies.  "Others".  Should I laud them for not personally killing those people?  Only turning away their eyes when those killings were going on?  Allowing atrocities to be committed in "the name of the German people"?

If you lay down with dogs....

[izabella]

8 minutes ago, Blergh said:

Why act unfairly to those whom one would hope would treat you fairly? 

Treating Trumputin supporters fairly is how we ended up with him as President-Elect.  Instead, we need to hold Trumputin and his supporters to standards of common decency and humanity, holding them to FACTS, and holding them to the existing laws that protect us from the injustices with which their President-Elect is about to destroy us with their enthusiastic support.

[Padma]

6 minutes ago, Blergh said:

DollEyes,

 

 Note please that my post was directed to supporters of ALL candidates who refused to consider that supporters of other candidates could be worthy of being considered human- not the candidates themselves nor those supporters who HAD proven by words and deeds that they were heinous people. I don't disagree what you said re Mr. Trump nor the worst actions of the worst of his supporters  (and I DO agree that ANY bad deeds by ANY side deserve to be dissed -even those who may otherwise support those whom one likes). However; ALL I was saying that one shouldn't blanketly lump ALL supporters of ANY candidate (Mr. Trump, Senator Clinton, Mr. Johnson, Ms. Stein, etc.) with the deeds and actions of the worst of them instead of considering giving EACH human being a chance to prove themselves worthy or not. Yes, I admit it may be easier to lump everyone who supports someone one dislikes in   simple, dehumanized categories (and its an impulse one must resist) but one winds up cutting one's own nose to spite the others' faces  and becoming as closed-minded as one claims others are.  Why act unfairly to those whom one would hope would treat you fairly? 

That's a noble idea--on paper. But would you say the same for people who supported Hitler (without knowing of the genocide, only going on his nationalism, appeal to patriotism and his virulent anti-Semitism?)  I'm sure meeting many Germans who supported Hitler that they would have seemed like very kind and good people.

Is that really enough? Or SHOULDN'T you be "demonized" when you support someone as dangerous and hateful and bigoted and ignorant as Trump?  I don't think its enough to excuse them because "oh, he's going to get us good jobs. He doesn't mean all that other stuff" -- while they enthusiastically cheer him on, knowing what he STANDS FOR.

I think people who support him should share the blame with him for what he represents. Not comparing him with Hitler, but in terms of accountability--yes, a demagogue's supporters are responsible for his success and should share the responsibility for what he says and does.

[MulletorHater]

1 hour ago, Ocean Chick said:

So what do you think we should do with all our home-grown white male terrorists?  You know the ones - the Unibomber.  Timothy McVeigh.  The Columbine shooters.  The Sandyhook shooter.  The Aurora theater shooter.  Should we ban American born while males?  Ship them to some other country at birth?  Round them up into "re-education/relocation camps" for life? 

This is a question I constantly ask, only to hear crickets chirping in concern.  I get that people are concerned and frightened.  But, just imagine if, you belong to an A.M.E. church like I do.  A stranger walks in on a Wednesday night ostensibly for Bible study.  We are taught to love others and to welcome the stranger in our midst.  So, of course, he wasn't turned away because he looked "strange."  Instead, he is welcomed with open arms and invited to participate.  Except this particular stranger entered with the intent to cause destruction and mayhem.  He sits there in Bible study for an hour and then starts shooting.  No one is exempt from his wrath--not the pastor, not the elderly women who serve as sextons or ushers at the church, not the son or grandson who wants to protect his loved one.  All because that stranger made up in his mind that people like me don't deserve to live; that we are the enemy; and that men who look like my father, brothers, husband, uncles and friends are raping women who look like him and have to be stopped.

See, this is the reality I have to live with.  In Washington, D.C.  As a result of that particular terrorist act, we have armed law enforcement people in our sanctuary for the first time I've attended church.  And, what makes it even sadder, is that a White couple visited our church to worship with us last year, and I have to admit that I watched them closely for "signs."  Did they appear angry?  Should I move to a pew near the rear "just in case?"  Never mind that they were wonderful people and clearly wanted to be a part of our worship experience.  They sang hymns with us, stood on their feet and clapped when the choir was singing and nodded their heads in agreement when the pastor preached.  When they introduced themselves and told us they were from Texas, we welcomed them with warm hugs, smiles and invited them to come back the next time they are in our area.

I never want to be in a space where I have to treat people suspiciously because of who they look like, or because of the actions of a few crazy and dangerous people.  A lot of us were traumatized by the September 11, 2001 attacks.  However, a lot of us were also appalled by the hate crimes unleashed on Muslims and against the people who "looked like" Muslims because of their skin color, or the way they dressed.  I'll never forget about the Sikh gentleman wearing a turban, who was beaten up a couple of days later because the thugs who attacked him thought he was one of "them."  This is where ignorance leads us because these fools clearly didn't know there was a difference--not that it should have mattered.

Edited December 22, 2016 by MulletorHater

[Duke Silver]

SMDH

[Blergh]

Ocean Chick,

 

 As I said in BOTH my previous posts, I was NOT excusing or giving free passes to those who HAVE  said and done heinous actions and deeds but all I was saying that ALL sides need to be FAIR  to others . I'd like to remind everyone that I wasn't singling out ANY one side here re supporters of candidates but trying to appeal to fairness for and by supporters of candidates .   How is refusing to consider that there could be ANY supporters of other candidates one dislikes even remotely worthy being helpful ?   Again, why act unfairly to those whom one would hope treat you fairly?

[Enigma X]

I guess it depends on how you view it. I view it as his supporters saying that hatred, racism, misogyny, classism, homophobia, and a litany of other human rights that recognize all individuals as worthy human beings until they legitimately do something inhumane was not important enough to not elect a man who has boisterously boasted that said individuals are not welcomed in his "USA." So, I feel as if I have already been acted unfairly against by their vote. My anger toward those people who have basically said that I am not a worthy human being I feel is warranted. As others have said, this would not be a blanketed feeling toward any conservative or Republican in the oval office, but it is toward this man who did not hide one bit of who he was when campaigning and his supporters lapped every vile piece up.

[MulletorHater]

13 minutes ago, Duke Silver said:

SMDH

The cognitive dissonance is amazing, isn't it?

It was GOP intransigence that created the instability that increased rates.  It was intentional and done with malice aforethought.  All to deny President Obama any kind of legacy.  For years, they have promised to real and replace.  And, when they couldn't get their way, they voted to shut down the government, often at the demand of the very constituents who need health insurance the most.

Then these same people turn around and vote for a man who promised to do what they said they wanted.  He was going to drain the swamp, yada yada yada.  Now, shit just got real and they're in panic mode.

[Duke Silver]

This has been posted a couple times, but I think people should just say this, drop the mic, walk away.  JMO.

Edited December 22, 2016 by Duke Silver

[Ocean Chick]

7 minutes ago, Blergh said:

Ocean Chick,

 

 As I said in BOTH my previous posts, I was NOT excusing or giving free passes to those who HAVE  said and done heinous actions and deeds but all I was saying that ALL sides need to be FAIR  to others . I'd like to remind everyone that I wasn't singling out ANY one side here re supporters of candidates but trying to appeal to fairness for and by supporters of candidates .   How is refusing to consider that there could be ANY supporters of other candidates one dislikes even remotely worthy being helpful ?   Again, why act unfairly to those whom one would hope treat you fairly?

And all I was saying that if you SUPPORT evil, whether or not you've DONE evil, then I class you as evil.  It's not enough just not to have acted on your evil thoughts.  If you support people who DO act on their evil thoughts, then I just can't with you.  Again - otherwise nice Germans, who loved their families and dogs and stuff, stood by and let other do the dirty work of killing millions of people.  They didn't personally kill those people.  But they sure as heck didn't oppose it, or try to stop it.  I'm sure they thought they were good, honest, God fearing people.  They just loved themselves more than their fellow humans and neighbors.  Standing by and letting others say and do evil, while not doing anything to stop it, is just as bad as doing it yourself. 

I know the slimy protoplasm that's the incoming administration won't treat me fairly.  I'm a woman.  And those that support the incoming administration, I'll tar with the same brush for not standing up for my rights.  Or the rights of African-Americans.  Or Mexican-Americans.  Or Muslim-Americans.  Or Buddist-Americans.  Or Japanese-Americans.  And so on and so on.

[Enigma X]

2 minutes ago, Ocean Chick said:

And all I was saying that if you SUPPORT evil, whether or not you've DONE evil, then I class you as evil.  It's not enough just not to have acted on your evil thoughts.  If you support people who DO act on their evil thoughts, then I just can't with you.  Again - otherwise nice Germans, who loved their families and dogs and stuff, stood by and let other do the dirty work of killing millions of people.  They didn't personally kill those people.  But they sure as heck didn't oppose it, or try to stop it.  I'm sure they thought they were good, honest, God fearing people.  They just loved themselves more than their fellow humans and neighbors.  Standing by and letting others say and do evil, while not doing anything to stop it, is just as bad as doing it yourself. 

I know the slimy protoplasm that's the incoming administration won't treat me fairly.  I'm a woman.  And those that support the incoming administration, I'll tar with the same brush for not standing up for my rights.  Or the rights of African-Americans.  Or Mexican-Americans.  Or Muslim-Americans.  Or Buddist-Americans.  Or Japanese-Americans.  And so on and so on.

I agree. But I am not as upset with the bystanders as I am with those who actively voted this man into office. Yeah. You can vote for whomever you want, and I ain't got to like it. No worries. I am not resorting to violence, but I am removing those people out of my circle by as much as I can.

[Padma]

Good point. His supporters also decided that, along with racism, misogyny wasn't a deal breaker for them.  They weren't put off at all by the insults and bullying of women (Kelly, Fields, Machado, Clinton, to name just a few), and even his on-camera bragging about assaulting them wasn't a deal breaker. 

So, his supporters share the blame as Trumpers, each and every one of them, even though the majority, I'm sure, would insist they are neither racist nor misogynists. (Then again, "no one respects women more than Donald J. Trump" He told us so himself.)

[fastiller]

So, a friend of mine posted on FB some video of some woman spewing racist stuff.  It's one of those 'viral' videos, I think.  I didn't watch it,  She posted along with it a very thoughtful post about how we need to stop pretending racism doesn't exist and that "making America great again" doesn't translate into "making America white again"*.  (As a point of reference: she's white, but she has black children.  She is truly scared for them, especially her two teenage sons who are really tall and if you don't know them, could look intimidating.)  NOTE: She didn't mention DJT at all.  She's really not a political person.  One of her relatives responded by asking "so if I voted for DJT does that mean I'm a racist?"  I couldn't hold back: I replied to him that voting for DJT doesn't make a person a racist, but it makes them a person who would vote for a racist and that this is just as bad.  Another reply to him was along the lines of the tweet @Duke Silver just posted: "not all DJT voters are racists, but all racists voted for DJT".   I thought it was interesting that the relative made the leap from a post about racism with no reference to DJT to DJT.  Interesting word association don't you think?

*even though to DJT voters, it really sort of does, right?

Edited December 22, 2016 by fastiller

[stillshimpy]

Quote

How is refusing to consider that there could be ANY supporters of other candidates one dislikes even remotely worthy being helpful ?   Again, why act unfairly to those whom one would hope treat you fairly?

 

Because they voted for someone who campaigned on the premise that we don't need to treat each other fairly.   They voted for someone who promised to harass and persecute my fellow citizens and I don't care what rationalizations made that possible for them, the end result is the same: If a person supports a racist agenda, it doesn't matter to me whether or not they believe themselves to be hateful and racist, they've just made hateful racists more powerful in this country and we're stuck dealing with that fallout.  

I could keep going on here, like how they threw away with both hands, every value I ever taught my son about what it means to be a decent human being.  Because the only hope I have right now is that maybe, just maybe there will be something left of the world that is worth saving when the destructionists that they just put into power are somehow ousted.  

Because we're all regarding the ruination of democracy -- Gingrich talking about presidential pardons if you break the law of the land, good god -- thanks to whatever motivated them.  

They already got on board the, "We're down with treating other people unfairly" train of their volition.  I didn't put them there, but I'm not going to pretend they did anything other than buy their own ticket to ride that express.   

It doesn't mean they are demonic, or evil, but they were okay with enabling these behaviors and it will forever distance us from each other.  

Edited December 22, 2016 by stillshimpy

[Duke Silver]

3 minutes ago, fastiller said:

So, a friend of mine posted on FB some video of some woman spewing racist stuff.  It's one of those 'viral' videos, I think.  I didn't watch it,  She posted along with it a very thoughtful post about how we need to stop pretending racism doesn't exist and that "making America great again" doesn't translate into "making America white again"*.  (As a point of reference: she's white, but she has black children.  She is truly scared for them, especially her two teenage sons who are really tall and if you don't know them, could look intimidating.)  NOTE: She didn't mention DJT at all.  She's really not a political person.  One of her relatives responded by asking "so if I voted for DJT does that mean I'm a racist?"  I couldn't hold back: I replied to him that voting for DJT doesn't make a person a racist, but it makes them a person who would vote for a racist and that this is just as bad.  Another reply to him was along the lines of the tweet @Duke Silver just posted: "not all DJT voters are racists, but all racists voted for DJT".   I thought it was interesting that the relative made the leap from a post about racism with no reference to DJT to DJT.  Interesting word association don't you think?

*even though to DJT voters, it really sort of does, right?

Proof of a guilty mind, IMO.

[sistermagpie]

Another thing that always comes to my mind is that for all people often say that it's only liberals who associate Trump's message with racism, we have all these examples of ordinary people behaving just as that woman in the video and saying "Trump's president--he's going to get you" basically. 

And of course, there's the question of why Trump supporters aren't having lots of conversations about how to make it up to their fellow citizens who feel they're out to get them. Or anything in response to the many hate crimes (except to seek out any hate crimes that didn't happen and publicize those with the implication that everybody's lying about hate crimes, probably along the claim that it's Trump supporters being harassed). 

Honestly, I feel like the left has been much louder in its arguments for why these people weren't acting out of bigotry than they themselves. They're not bothered by the Klan being so happy. 

[Duke Silver]

#RESIST

 

 

[izabella]

Last week, Trumputin was after the Dept of Energy employees who are involved with climate change; this week, his witch hunt has moved on to women's issues, such as ending domestic violence against women and entrepreneurship:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/josh-rogin/wp/2016/12/22/trump-team-asked-state-department-for-info-on-womens-issues-programs-stoking-fears-of-another-witch-hunt/?utm_term=.d444c6e02709

Wonder what group will be targeted next? 

[callmebetty]

17 minutes ago, izabella said:

Last week, Trumputin was after the Dept of Energy employees who are involved with climate change; this week, his witch hunt has moved on to women's issues, such as ending domestic violence against women and entrepreneurship:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/josh-rogin/wp/2016/12/22/trump-team-asked-state-department-for-info-on-womens-issues-programs-stoking-fears-of-another-witch-hunt/?utm_term=.d444c6e02709

Wonder what group will be targeted next? 

I just burst into tears reading that. I can't stand this anymore. I'm so sick of all of it. What the fuck is happening to our country? I don't see any hope left. We are all going to die from terrorist attacks or a a nuclear bomb or from our own politicians hating us so much. Well I hate you the fuck back.

[EyewatchTV211]

One positive. I believe someone posted awhile back with the number to call and leave feedback for President Obama requesting that he dismantle the NSEERS (Bush's Muslim and Arab registration). His administration has done so, thankfully. 

[Duke Silver]

......

Edited December 22, 2016 by Duke Silver

[KIMBERLYANN11]

10 hours ago, Hanahope said:

Forgive me, but i'm starting to have second thoughts on Trump's muslim ban.  I really really want to support peaceful people who worship however they want (although frankly, I'm fundamentally against any religion that treats women as second class citizens - and yes, that applies to more than just muslims, some jewish and christian religions act similarly), but with almost every attack going on in the world being caused by the radical islamists or wannabees, it gets harder and harder to not take a hard stance against all of them because of the few rotten apples spoiling the whole barrel.  government/security can't prevent all of the bad apples from slipping through the cracks of vetting, whether its because of insufficient funding/people to do the vetting, or the bad apples have learned how to lie well, more and more I'm starting to agree with those that say just no to everyone.  

I feel bad about these feelings, but I also am tired of having concerns every time I leave my house.  And I know that's not going to completely stop all attacks, but a reduction is preferable to an escalation.

I can understand that you're afraid - but let me present another perspective.  

I live less than 50 miles from the town with the largest muslim population in the US yet we have had zero terrorist attacks ever.  Do you want to know my opinion on why this is?  I believe it's because they are treated like they belong.  Some of the towns play the call to prayer.  The University of MIchigan's  Dearborn campus has installed foot washing stations for the students.  It's a good school - my daughter thought about going there.  Our tour was led by a very sweet muslim girl - the muslim people in our area value education, just as much for the girls as for the boys..  Of course if they try to build a mosque in rednecked Macomb county - the idiots are going to protest it - but in general, the muslims here get treated like anyone else. 

Now imagine you're a 14 year old boy.  Would you be more likely to radicalize if you felt you had a place in society and a chance to be somebody or if you had to register on a list and feared being put into a camp? 

So - I get the fear.  I do.  But dealing with it the way that Trump wants to is actually a self-fulfilling prophecy and will make things worse. 

Edited December 23, 2016 by KIMBERLYANN11
Added name of school so people understand it's not some fly by night.

[Lantern7]

I pose a "What If" from my blog. Feel free to leave me a comment there or on FB. It occurred to me while I was shopping, and I had to share it with the few dozen people who would care.

[KIMBERLYANN11]

38 minutes ago, Lantern7 said:

I pose a "What If" from my blog. Feel free to leave me a comment there or on FB. It occurred to me while I was shopping, and I had to share it with the few dozen people who would care.

That was a pretty awesome fantasy.  I would like to add Obama yelling "Hawaii! That's where I was born mother-fucker!  Say it! Say it you son of a bitch!"

[Duke Silver]

A few of us have posted articles/data showing the  disparity in economic output/contribution to federal coffers between blue & red states, the former contributing much, much more to the economy.

Under Trump, red states are finally going to be able to turn themselves into poor, unhealthy paradises

Quote

Why are voters in states that pay a disproportionately large share of federal taxes, and benefit from a disproportionately small share of federal spending, so upset about the prospect of a cut in taxes and federal spending?

Quote

Red state voters may talk a good game about small government and low taxes, but in reality they are socialist moochers.

Quote

In time, however, blue state Democrats could look forward to the satisfaction of watching Trump's voters stew in their own political juices as Red State America finally frees itself from the evil grip of global elites and big government and turns itself into a low-tax, low-wage, low health paradise where it's every man for himself.

[possibilities]

A few items that are designed to keep us positively engaged instead of just roiling around in complete despair (I need things like this myself, because I'm otherwise overwhelmed-- not offering it as a lecture, only as my 2 bits trying to contribute to morale):

1) Small action one guy took, that I'm only posting because of the article he wrote after, about such actions: http://www.dailykos.com/stories/2016/12/6/1607774/-One-Father-s-Small-Action-Against-Hate

2) Article trying to facilitate momentum from small actions: http://www.dailykos.com/story/2016/12/21/1613220/-Six-Habits-That-Create-a-Culture-of-Speaking-Up

3) Hail Mary initiative that could (maybe) confirm Merrick Garland (or maybe get the Supreme Court to itself weigh in on the matter if it happens and all hell breaks loose as a result):

http://www.dailykos.com/stories/2016/12/6/1606610/-With-Biden-in-the-chair-on-Jan-3-the-Senate-can-confirm-a-renominated-Merrick-Garland-Here-s-how

I think that doing this, at minimum, would be useful in that it could let us know if there's any enforceable constitutional limit on obstruction, and making the argument that not even holding a vote amounts to abdication of duty would be worth testing, for future situations.

4) Article I think nails it: https://medium.com/@nziehl/coping-with-chaos-in-the-white-house-697fa2ca3ddf#.vvuv85y1w

I wish that people in the media who are wasting their time would heed this advice. You can't get truth from liars, and they need to stop amplifying the BS and legitimizing the spin. We (people not employed by "the media") also need to find ways around listening to gaslighty trash, and not reward the media outlets who peddle it. 

---

If Trump supporters are upset that Trump-opponents are mad at them, they should try asking us why we're upset, and really listening to our concerns, instead of just trying to shut us up.

Edited December 23, 2016 by possibilities

[AntiBeeSpray]

^ The problem with that is that they don't listen. So they won't do the above sadly.

Thanks for the links! Planning on checking them out.

[Lantern7]

Just caught the tail end of Scrooge with Alastair Sim. It's wonderful to see Ebenezer repent his miser ways, becoming more open with his wallet and his heart, all in the span of one night. Sure, he scared the hell out of his maid, but he was a changed man. But you know the sucky part? That shit ain't gonna happen in a certain tall building in New York this year. Or ever.

ETA: "And you are?" "Jacob Marley." "You're not getting in. Not with those chains." "Look, I'm a ghost, and-" "And where are your dreadlocks?" "Motherf- . ..  every year with this. That's Bob Marley. I came first! And I got three ghosts behind me!" "Did they make appointments this late at night?" "No, but-" "Right. Don't make me call security."

[twoods]

If that orange turd starts a Muslim registry, then I think that those of us against it should register as well, under the "fuck Trump" registry. It's not fair that my Muslim friends should be singled out because of the few radicals in their religion. They play a crap load of taxes because they are doctors, and are paying for the ignorant haters' welfare, Medicare, and social security. Is that fair?

I agree that there should be a white supremacist registry- they are the ones that we should fear the most. I am just so angry right now at how backwards this country has become. 

[aradia22]

Quote

Hours ago it was announced that New York City dance icons, The Rockettes, will be performing at Donald Trump's inauguration in January. The group has performed at inaugurations in the past, most recently for both of George W. Bush's. 

[...] Now before we get in deep in this, let's understand why they're performing there at all. It's not as if the Rockettes, themselves arranged to perform at this event. The decision was made by MSG Sports & Entertainment, LLC and agreed to, by their union, American Guild of Variety Artists(AGVA). 

MSG Sports & Entertainment, LLC is owned by James Dolan. Dolan is a big political contributor and has donated to candidates from both parties. It's unclear, at this time, if he donated anything to Trump but given that they are both NYC moguls, we can assume they at least have some sort of relationship. 

[...] 

Now according to sources connected with the Rockettes, dancer contracts are usually up after the conclusion of the Christmas Spectacular. There are some that are employed full time(Year Round). This basically means that the dancers who you will see perform at the inauguration are either under contract to do so or were asked and chose to take the gig. 

So yes, some of these women do have a choice to be there or not. But do they really have a choice? 

Under all the contracts I've ever seen, there is always an option to decline to perform. However that would be logged as a "declined to accept" which will certainly be documented and remembered the next time jobs become available or auditions are held. 

It doesn't take a genius to understand that the dance industry in NYC is hard, but hard would be putting it lightly. According to the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics in 2015, of all the tax return, identified dancers in NYC, 1.4% of them reported employment. 

So before you pass judgement on any of these dancers over their reasons for performing at this event. Let me ask you this. 

What would you do if you were in their shoes?

Let's say you're a young 20 something year old, fresh out of college, paying student loans, bills and NYC rent/taxes/utilities and you are one of the 1.4% of people in your industry to have a job that pays (according to Gothamist) $1,500 a week, and they ask you to perform in an additional gig that could land you much needed money, would you do it? 

What if you said no? That could potentially land you in a documented category that would not only prevent you from ever being a Rockette again but also jeopardize your entire dance career.  MSG Sports & Entertainment, LLC and AGVA aren't the mafia but it would be moronic to think that word about a certain dancer's willingness to perform doesn't spread quickly in industry circles in one city. Knowing that risk, would you take the gig? 

[...] UPDATE: (12:06 AM) According to email forwarded to me, states that non-full time Rockettes DO NOT have to sign up for this event but that "If you are full time, you are obligated." Sounds like a stern implication to me. 

This is more of a theatre topic but I wanted to err on the side of caution and keep political stuff here.

http://www.onstageblog.com/columns/2016/12/22/dont-be-fooled-the-rockettes-dont-have-much-of-a-choice

[Duke Silver]

We can't just let go of #RussianHack.  Too bad the new administration, obviously, will for sure, and Congress...well, who knows what those clowns wind up doing.

Putin says only Russia knew Trump would win

Trump & Putin: master gaslighters.

[Padma]

11 hours ago, twoods said:

If that orange turd starts a Muslim registry, then I think that those of us against it should register as well, under the "fuck Trump" registry. It's not fair that my Muslim friends should be singled out because of the few radicals in their religion. They play a crap load of taxes because they are doctors, and are paying for the ignorant haters' welfare, Medicare, and social security. Is that fair?

I agree that there should be a white supremacist registry- they are the ones that we should fear the most. I am just so angry right now at how backwards this country has become. 

I was glad to hear Michael Moore on with LOD last night saying that if they start a Muslim registry all Americans should go down and register as Muslims, making it meaningless. Of course, such an action by the federal government would be completely unconstitutional, but with this group (and Sessions in charge of the Justice Department), it's still a real danger.

The Sandy Hook shootings--Orlando nightclub and Boston parade, too--convinced me that no one is ever safe anywhere, and it really doesn't matter whether its a terrorist or a mentally ill kid who kills you. Our intelligence community seems to have been doing an excellent job so far with preventing the vast majority of terrorist attacks that have been planned in this country, and I'd like them to be allowed to continue their work unimpeded.

That, plus a fresh approach to national gun registration and gun control would do more to make us safe from others --whether ideologically or mentally unbalanced--than anything that Trump & Co are suggesting.  (Oh, and it wouldn't hurt to scrap that unnecessarily inflammatory idea about moving the U.S. embassy to Jerusalem--and getting no concessions for Palestinians in exchange. That will just create another flash point of antagonism and another "example" of Americans being anti-Muslim--not that Trump knows or cares).

[possibilities]

Upthread someone posted a guide by congressional staffers, about how to win in the current political environment. www.indivisibleguide.com

Here they give additional suggestions for folks who already live in a blue district: https://twitter.com/i/moments/812135084853706752

[fastiller]

18 hours ago, Lantern7 said:

I pose a "What If" from my blog. Feel free to leave me a comment there or on FB. It occurred to me while I was shopping, and I had to share it with the few dozen people who would care.

There's an article over at Jezebel about comments that the idiot Carl Paladino made about the President & Mrs. Obama.  A comment there if a meteorite... which would fit right in with your 'what if' scenario.

[Duke Silver]

Things like campaign finance is so boring, so mundane; it makes average people's eyes glaze over.  However, this is really where the GOP, along with gras roots funding of local crazies by the Koch brothers, rubber hits the road.

As dirty as this finance game is, on both sides frankly, it always makes me wonder why some Dem super PAC doesn't just splinter into dozens of hard-to-decipher LLC's & pay to put activists on the ground in states like, say, NC & WI to combat various voter suppression, especially voter ID.  There has to be a way to actually help the disaffected obtain those state issued IDs that the right wing is so hard about people having to vote.  Just sayin'.  The other side fights with guns, Democrats. 

[Lantern7]

Jeez. What the fuck is with that guy?!? And I was wondering what the role of the Secret Service would be in my "fantasy."

[Duke Silver]

[ari333]

If I were a rockette I'd eat some old eggs or spoiled milk right before performance  time. Just in time to have vomiting and diarrhea . no way would I dance for that turd.  NO Way

[Lantern7]

Got a distressing e-mail. Apparently, 2016 is still having its way with us. Not really political, but still depressing.

[Duke Silver]

Wow...TeenVogue is OWNING the free press these days.  Where the fuck is the rest of the MSM?  Seriously...props to Teen Vogue.

[OrigamiNightmare]

On 12/22/2016 at 1:02 PM, stillshimpy said:

Because they voted for someone who campaigned on the premise that we don't need to treat each other fairly.   They voted for someone who promised to harass and persecute my fellow citizens and I don't care what rationalizations made that possible for them, the end result is the same: If a person supports a racist agenda, it doesn't matter to me whether or not they believe themselves to be hateful and racist, they've just made hateful racists more powerful in this country and we're stuck dealing with that fallout.  

I could keep going on here, like how they threw away with both hands, every value I ever taught my son about what it means to be a decent human being.  Because the only hope I have right now is that maybe, just maybe there will be something left of the world that is worth saving when the destructionists that they just put into power are somehow ousted.  

Because we're all regarding the ruination of democracy -- Gingrich talking about presidential pardons if you break the law of the land, good god -- thanks to whatever motivated them.  

They already got on board the, "We're down with treating other people unfairly" train of their volition.  I didn't put them there, but I'm not going to pretend they did anything other than buy their own ticket to ride that express.   

It doesn't mean they are demonic, or evil, but they were okay with enabling these behaviors and it will forever distance us from each other.  

Word

[AntiBeeSpray]

5 hours ago, Lantern7 said:

Got a distressing e-mail. Apparently, 2016 is still having its way with us. Not really political, but still depressing.

Yep :(. Just heard about that. Thoughts and prayers going out to her tonight.