S05.E06: So It Begins

[KirkB]

4 hours ago, looptab said:

I didn't think the show was trying to sell it - like it did with, say, Roy dreaming of killing Sara. I thought it was an explicit way of showing that Prometheus is setting Lance up.

It certainly does seem that way. But it's still a weird set up attempt, since the cut on the arm wouldn't mean anything to anyone but Oliver and Evelyn, since they and the train driver were the only ones to see Prometheus get cut. So if Prometheus is really trying to convince Oliver that Quentin is him, years past his prime and in no condition to be doing martial arts or jumping around rooftops, he's not very bright. Plus, if Quentin throws the star away and covers his arm no one would be any the wiser anyway. I'd almost be more inclined to think Prometheus is messing with Quentin rather than Oliver. Maybe Prometheus is actually Thea and this whole thing in an attempt to make Quentin clean up his act? No, probably not.

Speaking of the train driver, it's a good thing no one in Star City is dumb enough to actually ride the train. That way he was the only person besides Evelyn Oliver had to save when it blew up. Though why it was even running with only the driver aboard I have no idea. Was he traveling between stations just because he was bored or something?

Edited November 10, 2016 by KirkB

[Mellowyellow]

So while my banana chiffon was baking I watched all the Felicity scenes and nothing else. 

OMG I LOVE HER! She makes everything better. I don't even mind Malone anymore. I'm kinda in a ok place right now and I was so cross this season. I've accepted the break up and now as long as there is decent Felicity screentime I'm going to watch all her scenes and hopefully feel zen.

Her wardrobe was awesome as usual! Love the dress with the pink stripe and the jacket at the end. 

I enjoyed the Oliver and Felicity dynamic of working out the weirdness of dating other people and what to refer to them as. 

I'm also less ragey this week because Malone didn't look like a bearded lady today. I was all indignant last week that they fobbed a very odd looking love interest on her! 

Edited November 10, 2016 by Mellowyellow

[Mellowyellow]

10 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

 

REALLLY not loving the constant repetition of “Oliver’s new girlfriend” but at least SA didn’t fail me and when Susan was flirting, his nope face came out. 

 

I think SA makes a great Oliver but he pulls some really off faces at certain times.  I dunno I always think that someone who can be so compelling as Oliver Queen most of the time should not be dropping random stank faces here and there. I know we joke about the faces he pulls at Laurel but he really shouldn't be looking like that!!! It's really odd.

That and the weird beaming/over acting last week during the break up scene baffles me sometimes. It makes me as a viewer unsure of what I'm supposed to be seeing onscreen and what the writing is trying to convey.

Edited November 10, 2016 by Mellowyellow

[Lady Calypso]

So, it doesn't sound like this was a worthwhile episode to watch. This is the first one where I started watching online last night, then said "Nah" and turned it off. And on my birthday, too. I had a boring, pointless episode on my birthday.

Maybe I'll watch it. At some point. Maybe before the next episode. 

[arjumand]

51 minutes ago, KirkB said:

Speaking of the train driver, it's a good thing no one in Star City is dumb enough to actually ride the train. That way he was the only person besides Evelyn Oliver had to save when it blew up. Though why it was even running with only the driver aboard I have no idea. Was he traveling between stations just because he was bored or something?

Even better, when Oliver said "she's in the subway": maybe I missed something, but I thought the whole point of that Season 1 episode when Oliver rescues Roy was that Star(ling) City doesn't have a subway anymore, just the tunnels which were then used for the Undertaking.

Oh, and about the UNDERTAKING. Wasn't Oliver's list all about the UNDERTAKING? All those lawyers and "even a CITY COUNCILMAN!" (perfect, Madison, perfect), weren't they all in the. FUCKING. UNDERTAKING?!

Excuse me for breaking into all caps, but this is the first episode I've watched in a while, and I'm this close to a rage stroke again. So Oliver's a serial killer for having a list of people who wanted to destroy a whole part of the city, causing the death of thousands? Hey noobs? FUCK OFF. That's it, I'm done with them. I want Evelyn to get her expressionless, toneless, unacting ass off my screen, pronto. Wild Dong can fuck off, and all, while Ragman is cordially invited to sling his hook. Curtis? Eh. I enjoyed his delivery of the sick burn, so he maybe can stay. But he's on notice.

I find I can't even enjoy Felicity that much anymore, because she's reminding me of the overly bubbly comic relief she was in season 1, when I didn't really like her (sorry).

And the whole "Maybe Lance is Prometheus!" thing is just an insult to everyone's intelligence. I mean, it's like in the first episode, when we had the tiny hands sliding over Felicity, and the slow pan to the reveal of the owner of said hands. It's clear they meant it as a MIND BLOWN moment, when the only reaction it elicited was a shrug. Same with this. It's like they think we've never watched tv before.

Edited November 10, 2016 by arjumand

[way2interested]

Idk, upon rewatch with my friend I ended up liking the episode a bit more. Interactions between characters were fun, some cool shots, an interesting mystery, and  good flashbacks. 

I think it's just some new par for Arrow s5 that I'm just getting used to. It's not necessarily a higher or lower par than say s3 or s4, just different. I've done this for every season, adjust expectations, and normally every episode then falls into line. Most of s5 falls into those expectations, so I've been mostly settled and pleased but not completely satisfied.

That being said, this Olicity subplot of the Oliver and Felicity's "platonic" relationship with a bf on one side and a set-up future relationship for Oliver on the side is growing more annoying to watch. Not that their interactions are ever bad or uncomfortable or unpleasant to watch (on the contrary), but they feel so disjointed from the narrative that they have set up, that Oliver and Felicity were an engaged couple that are moving on but working together. It's as if the writers either want me to completely forget that these two were engaged to sell their new friendship but also want me to remember that fact to the extent that I'm supposed to acknowledge that it's important that Felicity has a bf and that Oliver is moving on.

Just now, arjumand said:

I find I can't even enjoy Felicity that much anymore, because she's reminding me of the overly bubbly comic relief she was in season 1, when I didn't really like her (sorry).

 Honestly, that is part of it for me, especially in her scenes with Oliver. A bunch of her jokes, though funny, seem really disconnecting with the scenes. Part of me chalked it up to her humor as shield personality, but there's been not enough emotional resonance to use that as an explanation for it narrative-wise. Sigh. 

[catrox14]

22 minutes ago, KirkB said:

It certainly does seem that way. But it's still a weird set up attempt, since the cut on the arm wouldn't mean anything to anyone but Oliver and Evelyn, since they and the train driver were the only ones to see Prometheus get cut. So if Prometheus is really trying to convince Oliver that Quentin is him, years past his prime and in no condition to be doing martial arts or jumping around rooftops, he's not very bright. Plus, if Quentin throws the star away and covers his arm no one would be any the wiser anyway. I'd almost be more inclined to think Prometheus is messing with Quentin rather than Oliver. Maybe Prometheus is actually Thea and this whole thing in an attempt to make Quentin clean up his act? No, probably not.

Speaking of the train driver, it's a good thing no one in Star City is dumb enough to actually ride the train. That way he was the only person besides Evelyn Oliver had to save when it blew up. Though why it was even running with only the driver aboard I have no idea. Was he traveling between stations just because he was bored or something?

Although my original spec way back was it being Roy/Jason Todd or Bizzarro! Oliver, I'm putting  Zombie! Tommy or Flashpoint! Tommy back on the table, too. Tommy  has a similar build as Oliver, but not that much shorter.  IIRC, Tommy knew about the list. What if he is getting vengeance for Laurel's death by setting up Oliver?  He has motive and opportunity, plus if  he was Lazarus pitted he'll be cuckoo for cocoa puffs. It it's a woman, I would get a kick out of it being zombie or Flashpoint! Moira.

[Morrigan2575]

I'm reading all the things about Quentin and Prometheus and I'm getting confused.  At first i thought it was some sort of red herring to fool the audience.  Then i read that it might be Prometheus setting Quentin up and I'm like hmm, that's possible.  Then I read that Prometheus was really Quentin during his blackouts and it's an interesting theory but doesn't fit, physically, where did he get the skills?  

I'm really curious abut the character but, somehow I don't think the reveal will be all that shocking/amazing and just end up disappointing

[TwistedandBored]

There were some parts of the episode that I enjoyed like the beginning with OTA and then there were other parts that I didn't like. 

[Sunshine]

If this was a season 1 show instead of season 5 I would probably enjoy it more.  It's starting to feel like I'm watching reruns but with different characters.  There are slight twists in the scenes but still I have this deja vu feeling. 

[KirkB]

38 minutes ago, arjumand said:

Oh, and about the UNDERTAKING. Wasn't Oliver's list all about the UNDERTAKING? All those lawyers and "even a CITY COUNCILMAN!" (perfect, Madison, perfect), weren't they all in the. FUCKING. UNDERTAKING?!

It's been a while since I saw season 1 (well, a few here and there recently on TNT) but if I remember correctly the list was his dad's associates, people who he had done bad things with. Oliver didn't even know about the Undertaking until partway through the season. He was using the list to track down slum owners and corrupt councilman who had failed the city.

Edited November 10, 2016 by KirkB
Sometimes I type too fast

[tv echo]

This episode had a surprising number of scenes involving OTA, O/D and O/F. Here's what happened (video clips are courtesy of Arrow on youtube)...

Prometheus is killing seemingly random people in Star City by throwing a metal star into their necks. The media has dubbed the serial killer the "Throwing Star Killer."  Detective Malone is in charge of the police investigation.

OTA are working to investigate the killing of Tobias Church and others. Felicity wants to bring in the new recruits right away, but both Oliver and Diggle disagree. Diggle doesn't trust them and Oliver wants to protect them. When Oliver does decide to bring them in later, the new recruits are disgruntled at Team Arrow being segregated into an "A" team (who knows everything first) and a "B" team (who's only brought into the loop later). 

Felicity and Curtis figure out that the victims have names that are anagrams of names that were on Oliver's list in S1.  (By the way, I don't know why Felicity needed Curtis' help on the victimology algorithm. She would've done it all by herself in the past. It was like we had to be reminded that Curtis was both a computer whiz and a field operative.) Oliver is forced to tell the new recruits that he was working off a kill list four years ago. The newbies then learn that Oliver was the Hood and the Arrow, as well as the Green Arrow. They do not take the news of Oliver being a past serial killer well, esp. Evelyn.  There are scenes where she is reconsidering her participation in Team Arrow, where she tries to take on Prometheus by herself without calling in the team and has to be rescued by Oliver (the team had split up to guard six potential victims), and where she and Oliver have a reconciliation talk which concludes her mini-arc.  Oh, and Felicity offers to talk with Evelyn because she's "kinda an expert when it comes to finding out ugly things about Oliver's past. Actually, I'm the leading expert." But Evelyn shuts her down. Also, Black Canary's name comes up again...

Evelyn: "You convinced me to not get revenge on Ruvé Darhk for my parents because killing would tarnish the Black Canary's legacy. How are you anything other than a hypocrite?"
Oliver: "First, it would have tarnished her legacy. Second, you knew that I was a killer when you came on board."
Evelyn: "Not a serial killer." 

We also learn that Felicity put trackers in all the newbies' suits after Wild Dog was kidnapped.  The newbies later have a meeting among themselves to discuss their being shut out of the loop and learning that Oliver was a serial killer.

Oliver and Diggle have a heart-to-heart, where Oliver is wondering whether he's really changed since four years ago. Oliver says that he wants to move forward and is trying to move forward, but he feels stuck. Diggle reassures Oliver that he's evolved since then, that S1 Oliver killed as a first resort, not last resort, and that S1 Oliver wouldn't even be asking the question. (Diggle = the voice of the writers.)

Malone had received one of the throwing stars in an evidence bag. Diggle says to Felicity that it would be nice if they could get a throwing star to analyze and strongly hints that she could get one from her police detective boyfriend. So Felicity steals the throwing star from off Malone's desk at the police station while visiting him. Felicity figures out that the throwing stars were made from the metal of various arrows used by Oliver back when he was killing people on his list. Those arrows were in police lock-up which means - dun, dun, dun - that Prometheus is likely a member of the SCPD.

Felicity confesses to Malone that she is working for the Green Arrow and that she stole his throwing star evidence. He takes the news surprisingly well.  And, yes, they're still together:

Oliver still has not asked Susan out on a date, although Susan reminded him that the clock is ticking on both his one-month reprieve from media attacks, as well as "the other thing."  During the episode, Thea and Felicity each jokingly refer to Susan as Oliver's girlfriend...

Felicity: "Your new girlfriend certainly knows how to whip a city into a frenzy."
Oliver: "Excuse me?"
Felicity: "Thea might have mentioned something about you dating Susan Williams."
Oliver: "I'm not dating Susan Williams. Did the person that you're dating actually give you that?"
Felicity: "No. I might have stolen it off his desk."
Oliver: "Are you kidding?"
Felicity: "I generally don't kid about something that could get me 10 years at Iron Heights."(*)

(* Yes, this is the same Felicity who, two weeks ago, was concerned about Oliver committing felonies by breaking Diggle out of prison. Consistency is not Arrow's strong point.)

Bethany Snow (on monitor): "Reports are just coming in that someone spotted the throwing star killer at an outdoor shopping mall, inciting widespread panic that is threatening to spill into nearby streets and homes."
Felicity: "Well, I hope your new girlfriend is happy with herself."
Oliver: "Let's call the team and have them meet me there."
Felicity: "All of them?"
Oliver: "All of them. They deserve to know that this has escalated. Stop calling Susan Williams my girlfriend."
Felicity: "Yes, sir."

Thea finds out that Quentin is still drinking and neglecting his deputy mayor duties again, but she refuses to give up on him. Episode ends with Quentin alone at his apartment looking at a bloody wound on his arm and picking up a throwing star from his coffee table.  Earlier, when rescuing Evelyn, Oliver wounded Prometheus in the arm with an arrow.  Obviously, we're supposed to believe that Quentin is Prometheus, but, like many of you, I don't buy it. I think there's something more. Quentin looked confused by his arm wound and the presence of the throwing star. Maybe we are supposed to believe that Quentin has gone psychotic and is killing during alcoholic blackouts and then forgetting about it, but that seems unlikely. The more reasonable explanation is that Prometheus is setting Quentin up. While Quentin was passed out in an alcoholic stupor, Prometheus could've entered his apartment, wounded Quentin on the arm, and planted the throwing star.

In flashbacks, Oliver learns that Kovar is making a move against the Bratva. At Bratva's request, Oliver assumes his rich playboy persona in order to get close to Kovar's people, as a potential investor, and plant a bomb in Kovar's casino, but instead he is captured by Kovar. (I've totally forgotten, but why was Oliver seeking Kovar in the first place? I thought he was in Russia to find Taiana's family.)

Additional thoughts:

Felicity's one-line quips sometimes seemed forced during this episode - like she was automatically triggered to provide comic relief at periodic intervals.  I just remember it being much more natural in S1 and S2.  Maybe because so much has happened to her, Oliver and Diggle since then that the frequency doesn't seem as appropriate any more.

The action stunts in this episode were tedious - like I'd seen them all before. The zip line stunt, where Oliver, Curtis and Diggle zip-lined from the rooftop to the ground, was something I'm pretty sure was done on the show before. The parachute arrow, which Oliver used to extract himself, Evelyn and the train conductor from a speeding train, was used just earlier this season - although the parachute is now green. (roll my eyes)

Edited November 10, 2016 by tv echo

[way2interested]

9 minutes ago, tv echo said:

(I've totally forgotten, but why was Oliver seeking Kovar in the first place? I thought he was in Russia to find Taiana's family.)

He was in Russia to get revenge for Poppy's family, whose village was taken over by Kovar. So all of this joining the Bratva was so he could get a chance to meet/kill Kovar.

[apinknightmare]

I didn't and won't watch this ep, but I did watch the scene posted above and LMAO @ Felicity telling her boyfriend her big green secret in an actual police station. Stay nonsensical and completely stupid, show. 

Edited November 10, 2016 by apinknightmare

[catrox14]

12 minutes ago, KirkB said:

It's been a while since I saw season 1 (well, a few here and there recently on TNT) but if I remember correctly the list was his dad's associates, people who he had done bad things with. Oliver didn't even know about the Undertaking until partway through the season. He was using the list to track down slum owners and corrupt councilman who had failed the city.

Oliver didn't kill everyone on the list, like Adam Hunt, who was actually killed by Malcolm as the Dark Archer. Since s5 is supposed to be a return to s1 Arrow, in theory, Tommy being Prometheus would mirror Malcolm setting up Oliver in s1.

[arjumand]

52 minutes ago, KirkB said:

It's been a while since I saw season 1 (well, a few here and there recently on TNT) but if I remember correctly the list was his dad's associates, people who he had done bad things with. Oliver didn't even know about the Undertaking until partway through the season. He was using the list to track down slum owners and corrupt councilman who had failed the city.

Well, I've watched it fairly recently.

And no, Oliver didn't know about the reason behind the list initially, and neither did we. But once they found the outline/map of the subway system on the front page/cover of the notebook, it was, if not stated, heavily implied, that the list was all the backers behind the Undertaking, all the ones Malcolm Merlyn convinced/forced. Because the Markov devices were hidden in the subway tunnels.

Oliver never went back to the notebook after Season 1, because in his opinion, that was done.

That the EPs / writers are doing their customary, "No, that never happened, what is this word you call 'continuity'? We do not understand that word." does not surprise me AT ALL.

But don't try to tell me that wasn't what I watched. Those were episodes I watched more than once (Ha!), and very recently, for some fanfic I was writing (HA!), and I know what I saw.

Edited November 10, 2016 by arjumand

[popgoesculture]

6 minutes ago, arjumand said:

Oliver never went back to the notebook after Season 1, because in his opinion, that was done.

I think he did go back to the notebook after Season 2. In the Season 3 premiere, Felicity had uploaded the list and they were taking down bad guys from it... right? Like that was one of the first scenes, I thought, where they (Team Arrow) were chasing down bad guys and being all happy and congratulatory about their progress. 

Or maybe I've repressed so much plothole-y Arrow writing that I'm making up scenes in order to create a somewhat coherent narrative. That's entirely possible, sadly.

[arjumand]

3 minutes ago, popgoesculture said:

I think he did go back to the notebook after Season 2. In the Season 3 premiere, Felicity had uploaded the list and they were taking down bad guys from it... right? Like that was one of the first scenes, I thought, where they (Team Arrow) were chasing down bad guys and being all happy and congratulatory about their progress. 

Or maybe I've repressed so much plothole-y Arrow writing that I'm making up scenes in order to create a somewhat coherent narrative. That's entirely possible, sadly.

Huh. You know, I might have blocked that out after the madness of Season 3. I remember that Isabel Rochev's name was briefly seen back in Season 1, but then not even brought up in season 2, so probably they forgot.

So they put the subway map on the cover, so that Oliver finds out about the Undertaking. But then not all the names were related to the Undert- you know what? Fuck it.

I'm so close to being done with the show, you guys. Sigh.

Nevertheless, the people in the notebook were BAD PEOPLE. And Oliver did not kill them all. So the fucking noobs who know nothing can get off their high horses, or stay on them, and use them to leave the show.

[apinknightmare]

9 minutes ago, popgoesculture said:

I think he did go back to the notebook after Season 2. In the Season 3 premiere, Felicity had uploaded the list and they were taking down bad guys from it... right? Like that was one of the first scenes, I thought, where they (Team Arrow) were chasing down bad guys and being all happy and congratulatory about their progress. 

Or maybe I've repressed so much plothole-y Arrow writing that I'm making up scenes in order to create a somewhat coherent narrative. That's entirely possible, sadly.

I don't think those were people from the list - in that scene, Felicity's watching a news report that mentions the crime rate plummeting, and then Oliver comes in and says to take another off the board. Diggle follows with, "Keep this up, there will only be two kinds of criminals in Starling City - the ones we put away, and the ones that are running scared." I think those people were just run-of-the-mill criminals Team Arrow was hunting down.

[Morrigan2575]

11 minutes ago, popgoesculture said:

I think he did go back to the notebook after Season 2. In the Season 3 premiere, Felicity had uploaded the list and they were taking down bad guys from it... right? Like that was one of the first scenes, I thought, where they (Team Arrow) were chasing down bad guys and being all happy and congratulatory about their progress. 

Or maybe I've repressed so much plothole-y Arrow writing that I'm making up scenes in order to create a somewhat coherent narrative. That's entirely possible, sadly.

I don't think the people in 301 were from the list.  I think the point was to show that TA was cleaning up local crime.  To my knowledge the list was dropped after S1

[popgoesculture]

Just now, apinknightmare said:

I don't think those were people from the list - in that scene, Felicity's watching a news report that mentions the crime rate plummeting, and then Oliver comes in and says to take another off the board. Diggle follows with, "Keep this up, there will only be two kinds of criminals in Starling City - the ones we put away, and the ones that are running scared." I think those people were just run-of-the-mill criminals Team Arrow was hunting down.

But then where did she get this list from? It seems like a big coincidence to have a randomly generated list... how did she curate it? People who got away from the SCPD? (Who are suddenly super corrupt?)

but wait, maybe I'm expecting logic from this show, and clearly every episode (and life in general) shows that logic isn't happening in Arrow world or the real world. 

Also, thanks to everyone for recapping this ep! I didn't watch and it seems like I didn't miss anything. 

[Morrigan2575]

Probably from news reports and Lance, giving them potential leads. He was working with Oliver in 301.

[apinknightmare]

3 minutes ago, popgoesculture said:

But then where did she get this list from? It seems like a big coincidence to have a randomly generated list... how did she curate it? People who got away from the SCPD? (Who are suddenly super corrupt?)

Probably known street criminals and other people who had criminal records and had been released/broken out and were known to be out on the streets getting into nefarious things. This actually doesn't seem illogical or nonsensical to me, haha.

[looptab]

1 hour ago, KirkB said:

It's been a while since I saw season 1 (well, a few here and there recently on TNT) but if I remember correctly the list was his dad's associates, people who he had done bad things with. Oliver didn't even know about the Undertaking until partway through the season. He was using the list to track down slum owners and corrupt councilman who had failed the city.

Yeah, the people on the list were corrupt people, but they weren't aware of the Undertaking. They just served the involved people's - Malcolm, Robert, etc - purpose 

2 hours ago, KirkB said:

It certainly does seem that way. But it's still a weird set up attempt, since the cut on the arm wouldn't mean anything to anyone but Oliver and Evelyn, since they and the train driver were the only ones to see Prometheus get cut. So if Prometheus is really trying to convince Oliver that Quentin is him, years past his prime and in no condition to be doing martial arts or jumping around rooftops, he's not very bright.

Maybe he wants to drive a wedge between Oliver and the people close to him. It doesn't make much sense, but, again, I don't thibk the show is trying to make us believe that he is Prometheus.

[KirkB]

I may be (probably am) way off base here. But while there is no way Quentin could be Prometheus, is it possible he was the guy on the train? Since there is precedent on the show for mind control, could the real Prometheus have gotten to Quentin, made him put on the costume and put a bomb on the train, while disguising it as a drunken stupor? The guy on the train seemed to have a hard time fighting Evelyn. It's the only thing I can wrap my head around with the reveal that makes any real sense to me.

Edited November 10, 2016 by KirkB

[FortKnox]

Hold on. When Oliver first came back with the list he would give the offender a chance to make things right. When they didn't then he'd go after and even then he didn't always kill them.

In others words he wasn't a "kill first" person like they called him in this episode.

[catrox14]

33 minutes ago, FortKnox said:

Hold on. When Oliver first came back with the list he would give the offender a chance to make things right. When they didn't then he'd go after and even then he didn't always kill them.

In others words he wasn't a "kill first" person like they called him in this episode.

THANK YOU!!! This is was driving me crazy. I was yelling at the TV, "NO NO NO. That's not what happened.That' not how it works. That's not how any of this works!" 

So either they are trying to retcon Oliver's mission in s1 OR this is some stealth Flashpoint shenanigans.

[SmallScreenDiva]

23 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

So either they are trying to retcon Oliver's mission in s1 OR this is some stealth Flashpoint shenanigans.

It's the writers not remembering yet again what they actually wrote. 

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

Arrow Takes A Break

Dolph Lundgren stops by to lighten the mood a little on a dark show.

[ohjoy]

The show has always maintained that The Hood had a serial-killer mentality, even though it was usually his second, third, or fourth go-to move, rather than his first. Even in Season 1 Lance kept calling him a serial killer, and much of Tommy's problem when he found out it was Oliver was that Oliver had killed people. (Never mind the sometimes multiple chances he gave people to come clean before he killed them.) So they're somewhat consistent in that in everyone's mind, "The Hood" was basically known for killing people. That's why Oliver switch to going as "The Vigilante" in Season 2: he was trying to dissociate himself with the killer ways of The Hood.

Now what makes no sense at all is why the noobs or anyone else who knows Oliver now is getting all self-righteous with him about how he was long before they ever met him. It was nonsensical for Evelyn to feel "betrayed" because Oliver convinced her not to kill Darhk in retribution for her parents' deaths; Oliver had long since stopped being Killy McStabby about most people by then. Just because he killed people a long time ago doesn't make wrong for him to try to stop you from putting that on your conscious now. In fact, maybe listen to him on that mark, since he's clearly got way more experience than you there.

The B team being mad at him for hiding stuff from them that OTA knows is actually more plausible -- although I feel like that anger should instantly dissipate every time they look at Rene. I want to punch him full in his mouth every time he opens it to snipe the word "Blondie" at Felicity. And then I want Felicity to do it. Then I everyone else to take turns after her. (Shut your freakin' face, Rene.)

Mayo (sorry, not calling him Billy) came this close to being remotely interesting this episode. Something about the way he was questioning her new "friend" in his first scene made me think he might actually have already figured out her secret; and then when she was actually telling him her secret and he got upset about her being a criminal I thought hey, maybe they're going to let this guy have a character/backbone after all (or maybe I thought he was about to break up with her and I got all excited) -- and then he instantly flipped to fanboy and I lost interest again.

By the same token, I don't care how many times Oliver has to tell people to stop calling Susan Williams his girlfriend -- I will put up with that joke for as long as necessary as long as he never actually sleeps with her.

If this show pulls the ultimate 5th season culmination/surpise and somehow manages to bring back Colin Donnell as Prometheus/LP Tommy I might actually forgive them for everything else. I don't mean CGI, or dream sequence/hallucination, or flashbacks (only) or anything else -- I mean present day, flesh and blood Tommy Merlyn as the Dark Archer that everyone thought he was going to turn into in the latter part of Season 1 before they threw us the biggest of curveballs with his death. I know I would have panned it as a Spiderman ripoff if it had happened back then, but now... mad props if the show could pull that off with any believabliity.

[catrox14]

12 minutes ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

It's the writers not remembering yet again what they actually wrote. 

I'm not so sure it is that simple. Or I hope it's not. :(

[benteen]

Quote

The B team being mad at him for hiding stuff from them that OTA knows is actually more plausible -- although I feel like that anger should instantly dissipate every time they look at Rene. I want to punch him full in his mouth every time he opens it to snipe the word "Blondie" at Felicity. And then I want Felicity to do it. Then I everyone else to take turns after her. (Shut your freakin' face, Rene.)

Good God, yes.  You think he's learning something but week after week he double downs on the stupidity.

[Aeryn13]

I found this weird. Since they now pointedly brought up five-thousand times that Oliver as the Hood went after lawyers and a councilman, could that be a clue as to Prometheus` identity? Anyone has a laywer/councilman brother or father maybe? Mayo?

The new team reacting negatively to Oliver`s go-to-response of not bringing them in right away, I get it. Though they should be used to it by now. And in all fairness, Diggle was riding that secret train just as hard. Why is only Oliver getting all the flack? 

But the "serial killer" angst was over the top. If they knew he killed before, they knew he killed before. Those scenes came across like "we totally believed you only killed the people we approve of to-be-killed". Well, you didn`t even look at those lawyer`s files. If your morality is that flexible - and you jused heavily implied it is - then at least look into it.  René seemed to be defending him somewhat and Curtis tried to find the humour in it, I guess. It was nice that they tried to give Evelyn some character work, it just wasn`t the best material.   

Prometheus seriously had to go with the weird anagram killings? He must have a lot of faith in Oliver and gang to pick up on such an obscure hint. Obviously, they were supposed to, otherwise no sense in sending a message like this.

Are they trying to fake the audience out with a "Lance developed a secret evil alter ego from drinking" scenario? It looks even more weird as a set-up by Prometheus. Could have picked a more convincing patsy than this.

I like the Oliver/Diggle friendship and they almost always have nice moments.

And in light of flashback!Oliver and his never-ending "Anatoli, what the hell?" shtick, I LOl-ed when his first question to Kovar was "what the hell..." Teehee. I hope Anatoli isn`t gone yet, I love his little bromance with Oliver in the past.

Felicity, I don`t know, IMO they overburden the character with bubbly comic relief one-liners. 

[SmallScreenDiva]

@quarks, will you be doing your usual review? This thread doesn't feel complete without it.

[thenj]

I really wish Felicity would get a storyline. Where was her emotional fallout from Havenrock? I couldn't care less about her relationship with Majo. What is there to care about? They haven't shown us how they met or got together. I don't even know why she likes him. Yeah, he doesn't seem to be like Oliver but that isn't a good enough reason for me why she is with him. 

I did love the B5 mention.

[ohjoy]

34 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I found this weird. Since they now pointedly brought up five-thousand times that Oliver as the Hood went after lawyers and a councilman, could that be a clue as to Prometheus` identity? Anyone has a laywer/councilman brother or father maybe? Mayo?

The new D.A. is a lawyer, who has a bit of a history with pre-island Ollie, and is replacing somebody who was fatally wounded while working with the Green Arrow. Plus IIRC he was the first person shown on screen at the crime scene when that woman got a throwing star to the neck in her own home. My realistic bet is that he's Prometheus. (That's not who I want, but it's more in line with the level of writing the show's been giving me lately than my crack pipe dream casting is.)

[bijoux]

So, here are the things I liked

• indication that Felicity and Thea talk regularly
• Thea and Lance acting as comedic foils to Oliver
• flashback Oliver putting on his douche persona. Unnamed dead Bratva guy, I gree with you, he does it really well.
• Diggle coming up with the idea that Felicity steals evidence from Malone. Hee.
• EBR's acting in the scene where she tells Malone, however

Here's the iffy part:

• there was no lead up to it. Did the scene in which Felicity reflects on the lack of honesty in her relationship end up being cut?
• Also in this vein, Lance having the same storyline over again only with Thea substituting Laurel.
• GA just walking past the cops on an active crime scene. Will they invite him over for their next intercity softball game? Do he, Chase and Malone get together for shakes and fries?
• Evelyn should never get a storyline ever again. I could deal with the actress this season because she was just kind of there and inobtrusive for the most part. But she was so painfully horrible in this episode. Also, I have to laugh at the idea of 12-13-year-old Evelyn being familiar with the city's councilmen and lawyers. LOL
• The team showing up together at the concert. Jesus H. I'm stumped they didn't drag Dig there as well, fugitive or not. Like, they could have easily had Felicity and Curtis coming together, Rory and Evelyn, and sure you could even throw Rene in there since the three of them aren't known, and just have them give each other nods or looks as they pass by. Rene could have still hit on Thea and Curtis could have happened along at that point to rib him. Come on! Try for some secrecy, jeez. But hey, it's nice that the noobs got rewarded for their hard work helping people who have tripped stand back up. The Black Canary's legacy lives on! 
• Most of the Prometheus plot. The killings were fine, but the message in the beginning was super lame as was the "rescue" scene I just mentioned and Evelyn actually being able to fend him off for a little while there.

[BunsenBurner]

I watched the show again with my brother and he lots of comments but I will only give you three I missed since I was only watching the first time while taking care of my very sick dog in the picture.

Anyway we counted at least 10 times that FS made little comments to lighten the show they were not all successful.

The shooting the arrow to the ground so that the team could slide down to the ground made no sense.  Oliver pulled the arrow out of his quiver and shot it to the ground. He needed to attach it to something at the top before he sent it to the ground.

We both looked at each other when Rory looked at Curtis and said about the his father's schnapps, "It's strong and a little sweet like you."  Unless we heard wrong was he making a snarky remark about him being gay?

Edited November 11, 2016 by BunsenBurner
left a word out

[statsgirl]

I hope your dog is better now, BunsenBurner.

I find the "anagram of the names in the book" too twisted an idea.  For starters, Oliver went after more people  than just those in the book.  There was the Royal Flush Gang and the guy who killed the wife of the innocent man in jail.  For another, who thinks about making anagrams when they list the innocent victims?  Also, anagrams come up with a bunch of different words so there's no telling they will come up with the right names.

11 hours ago, arjumand said:

I find I can't even enjoy Felicity that much anymore, because she's reminding me of the overly bubbly comic relief she was in season 1, when I didn't really like her (sorry).

It's sad, and it doesn't even fit who she is supposed to be post season 4.  It really does feel like they're trying to please the fanboys who only want her as comic relief.

12 hours ago, Racj82 said:

Do people actually sit and count how Uchiha dialogue women have on tv shows? Honestly question.

Thea has her own storyline independent of the team and is still funny reacting to Oliver.

Artemis took the spotlight of the episode as far as the newbies went.

Felicity has her own plot navigating secrets in her relationship and learning from the themes of the episode. How does any of this equal some he man woman hater/ frat bro show?

I don't count the dialogue but I am very disappointed at how all the women seem to be put into their own corners this season:

Thea doesn't really have her own storyline, she hasn't had a single scene that isn't about Oliver or Quentin.  Even her scenes with Susan Williams were about Oliver.

It's episode 6 and this is the first time we found out anything about Evelyn's past. We already know all about Curtis, and Rene and even Rory.  And now that we do find out something about her, she's whiny and stupid because she can't see the difference between Oliver and herself.

When she's not being comic relief, Felicity's storyline once again is not about herself but the men in her life.  The only reason the question of secrets arose is here is  so that the show would have a reason for her to tell Mayo that she's working with the Green Arrow.  There's no exploration of why she's been dating him for at least 2 months and hasn't let him meet her friends or why she still can't tell that it's real, or why she's even dating him in the first place. It's all about moving the plot.

[Racj82]

37 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

I hope your dog is better now, BunsenBurner.

I find the "anagram of the names in the book" too twisted an idea.  For starters, Oliver went after more people  than just those in the book.  There was the Royal Flush Gang and the guy who killed the wife of the innocent man in jail.  For another, who thinks about making anagrams when they list the innocent victims?  Also, anagrams come up with a bunch of different words so there's no telling they will come up with the right names.

It's sad, and it doesn't even fit who she is supposed to be post season 4.  It really does feel like they're trying to please the fanboys who only want her as comic relief.

I don't count the dialogue but I am very disappointed at how all the women seem to be put into their own corners this season:

Thea doesn't really have her own storyline, she hasn't had a single scene that isn't about Oliver or Quentin.  Even her scenes with Susan Williams were about Oliver.

It's episode 6 and this is the first time we found out anything about Evelyn's past. We already know all about Curtis, and Rene and even Rory.  And now that we do find out something about her, she's whiny and stupid because she can't see the difference between Oliver and herself.

When she's not being comic relief, Felicity's storyline once again is not about herself but the men in her life.  The only reason the question of secrets arose is here is  so that the show would have a reason for her to tell Mayo that she's working with the Green Arrow.  There's no exploration of why she's been dating him for at least 2 months and hasn't let him meet her friends or why she still can't tell that it's real, or why she's even dating him in the first place. It's all about moving the plot.

Rock on. I don't have time to single out characters like that. I doubly don't take time to single out the women and what they are doing. It's a huge cast. Everyone is taking their time in the spotlight it's been six while episodes. That to reconfigure the team, get Diggle back, establish the new characters, new villain and on and on. Don't know what else could be expected. I also don't understand the logic of writing off someone's storyline because it involves other characters or another characters arc. A plot line is a plot line. Multiple people have their own stuff going on outside of Oliver. I just don't see what the issue is but that's just me. Not for me to understand.

[statsgirl]

The cast is too large.  They were never any good at writing more than 4 people on Team Arrow (when Sara joined, Diggle and Felicity got back burnered) so now it's even worse that they've made it 7 plus Thea and Lance who help out. 

 Felicity, who has never needed computer help before, suddenly needs Curtis the engineer to help her with the algorithm because they need to give him something to do.

[blackwing]

Really boring episode.  So sad, this used to be one of my favourite shows.  Now, it's something I put on when I am washing dishes.  If I miss what was said, oh well, who cares.

Still hating the new kids but dislike the girl most of all.  She is the pits.   I couldn't care less about her woman angst about her parents and how she was mad at Oliver.

[TrueMyth]

3 hours ago, BunsenBurner said:

We both looked at each other when Rory looked at Curtis and said about the his father's schnapps, "It's strong and a little sweet like you."  Unless we heard wrong was he making a snarky remark about him being gay?

Yeah, this line was odd to me as well.  I'm not sure what chord they are trying to strike with Curtis and Rory.  They've had a couple beats with Curtis being flustered by Rory and seeming to almost come on to him, but they've mentioned Paul, so it's not like the writers have forgotten that Curtis is married.  Of course, they also textually referenced Rory as straight a few episodes ago.  So the "strong and a little sweet" line was just ODD!  Especially as Curtis hasn't been shown to be very physically commanding, and where he is, his agility outshines his strength.

Over all I liked this episode fine.  I was feeling very down before watching, and it gave me an escape from reality right when I needed it.

I don't think Ritter is doing well with Detective Mayo Malone.  I know he's not given the best stuff to work with, but some of his choices are downright odd, like when Felicity is cozying up to him prior to taking the evidence and he delivers his lines to her with his back fully turned, and over his shoulder, and not even looking at her.  It almost read like he was embarrassed because he likes some other woman at work or something.  He also seems to be a horrible cop if he's really okay with handwaving Felicity's involvement with the Arrow, particularly so quickly.  It all makes him seem suspicious, but I truly hope that he is NOT Prometheus, because I think he's a worse actor than Mark Noble.

Really not sure what they are trying to do with Quentin.  Maybe if the SCPD had burst through the door right at the end on some sort of tip to arrest him, but as it is... Lance can't be Promethus, especially during blackouts.  He just doesn't have the skill set.

I somewhat understand the newbies grumbling about being left out of planning, and I think they SHOULD have been told about the serial killer earlier, but they have no leg to stand on regarding their surprise that Oliver was the Hood, too, and killed people back then.  He is killing people NOW.  Has been, all summer.  That was part of what the pilot set up.  If they were okay with joining him then, their reaction should have come off as "I need time to process this" at the MOST.

I've been waiting to get a little more time with Evelyn for a while.  I wish she had struck up a better report with Felicity, because we need more female to female conversations on the show.  Ultimately though, I was disappointed by her scenes.  I still know very little about who she is outside of the Arrow cave.  The line about her blaming Oliver for her parents and having a hard time joining him was off, too... because they never actually explained WHY or HOW she got over it.  Why did she jump at the chance to work with him again?  That's a pretty central motivation for her character and her first major storyline should have fleshed it out if it was going to bring it up.

I liked the OTA stuff at the beginning.  I was really happy to discover that Oliver had brought Diggle into the field.

That said, wow, Prometheus is a DRAMA KING!  Some comments/reviews I've seen were impressed that he came off as badass in this episode, but I can't help but laugh at most of his beats.  The torch lights popping on and leading to the cell phone were so silly (I mean, did he actually run gas lines through this warehouse and work out the timing and everything?), not to mention the SO IT BEGINS in fire.  If I had some context for the character outside of this, I would probably like the drama of it, but we know so little about this nemesis, and it makes me laugh in a way that I don't think the creators hoped to inspire.

[BkWurm1]

On 11/10/2016 at 10:56 AM, popgoesculture said:

But then where did she get this list from? It seems like a big coincidence to have a randomly generated list... how did she curate it? People who got away from the SCPD? (Who are suddenly super corrupt?)

but wait, maybe I'm expecting logic from this show, and clearly every episode (and life in general) shows that logic isn't happening in Arrow world or the real world. 

Also, thanks to everyone for recapping this ep! I didn't watch and it seems like I didn't miss anything. 

The digital list did include the original list as well.  The show runners talked about it pre season.

On 11/10/2016 at 11:01 AM, looptab said:

Yeah, the people on the list were corrupt people, but they weren't aware of the Undertaking. They just served the involved people's - Malcolm, Robert, etc - purpose 

Maybe he wants to drive a wedge between Oliver and the people close to him. It doesn't make much sense, but, again, I don't thibk the show is trying to make us believe that he is Prometheus.

They were all people Malcolm called upon for support even if they didn't know specifics, but Oliver researched each name and only targeted those he found dirt on.  It wasn't willy nilly and It was never for minor stuff.  

Quote

I find I can't even enjoy Felicity that much anymore, because she's reminding me of the overly bubbly comic relief she was in season 1, when I didn't really like her (sorry).

Quote

 Honestly, that is part of it for me, especially in her scenes with Oliver. A bunch of her jokes, though funny, seem really disconnecting with the scenes. Part of me chalked it up to her humor as shield personality, but there's been not enough emotional resonance to use that as an explanation for it narrative-wise. Sigh

Yeah, a lot of the joking feels forced and I've seen it as trying too hard to be "normal" from Felicity, but while the set up is there for that emotionally, there's been no one to call her on it so I'm just not sure what the writer's intent really is.

[AudienceofOne]

Awesome B5 reference. Other than that... meh.

On 11/11/2016 at 4:04 AM, FortKnox said:

Hold on. When Oliver first came back with the list he would give the offender a chance to make things right. When they didn't then he'd go after and even then he didn't always kill them.

In others words he wasn't a "kill first" person like they called him in this episode.

Oh, exactly. The reason he was considered a killer was not because he was murdering everyone on the list. It was because he was indiscriminate about his use of violence in pursuing them. He was specifically NOT murdering them all but forcing them to make amends for their crimes and trying to work out what his father had been involved in.  This pretty well ruined the episode for me. Well, that and the 'acting' of wet tea bag. Just terrible.

Like everyone else, Felicity telling her cop boyfriend she was a vigilante at the cop station in an interrogation room with an open door and two-way mirror was flipping hilarious. No wonder everybody in Star City knows who the Green Arrow is.

[Lily-n11]

[Hiveminder]

I just now watched this episode, and pretty much like everyone else I'm upset about the whole 'Oliver was a serial killer' thing. I'm willing to let a lot of things slide in the name of entertainment, but honestly. A little attention to continuity, please. If you need to completely ignore and misrepresent your character's past actions (which you wrote in the first place) to make your storyline work maybe you should be writing a different story. 

Im also somewhat dismayed by the fact that Rene bothered me the least of all the boobs this episode. 

[bijoux]

1 hour ago, Hiveminder said:

 

Im also somewhat dismayed by the fact that Rene bothered me the least of all the boobs this episode. 

Well, I wouldn't go so far but I did side with him when everyone was atizzy over their shocking revelation about Oliver and he was all, would you just pick a lane and ride the wah wah bus in it? It was a strange and unconmfortable feeling, to be honest.

[thenj]

Well, he still calls Felicity Blondie, so no improvement on my side. 

[Hiveminder]

Oh I don't like him, by any means. It's just that even Rory was more annoying in this particular episode. Rene was the only one of the interlopers who wasn't being all judgy and entitled, and then he provided me with some amusement by being shot down by Thea again. He should get shot down by someone at least once an episode. I think it would improve his likeability. 

Edited November 13, 2016 by Hiveminder