S01.E07: The Best Washing Machine in the World

[Tikichick]

Loved the episode, particularly that Randall and Kevin might be making progress to really embrace brotherhood.

I feel for Kevin.  I think he's lived his life feeling rejected/supplanted in the family dynamic -- and not having anyone see or understand his wounds.  Randall has always gotten a pass because he's adopted, racially lived as a fish out of water much of the time and was an overachiever, the perfect son.  The only person who had any inkling of understanding Kevin's wounds was Randall, and Randall couldn't see beyond his own vulnerabilities to fully understand and/or reach out in a way to try to help Kevin.

While their fight in the street was comedic I was relieved that they were simply lashing out frustrations at one another, not genuinely trying to knock each other's blocks off.  Gives me hope they will eventually be fully bonded, although I think the road there is going to be very rocky, starting with next week.

[Neurochick]

I don't feel for Kevin at all.  He comes off to me as a privileged douchebag.

[llewis823]

10 hours ago, CleoCaesar said:

The casting director needs a bonus for his or her work finding the teen versions of the adult characters. Spot-on.

I so agree and it sounds like everyone else does too. (Same for the kid versions of the Big Three too). I always love it when a movie or tv show really tries hard to cast believable younger versions of people. And for that matter, when they try to cast relatives to look like they could really be related.

[kili]

Kevin and his Mom must have an absolute terrible relationship. She never went to see a taping of his show? Yikes. I don't think Miguel had gout problems and I don't think Kevin believed that story either. Randall has a cancer patient at home and he went out for dinner. Gout hurts, but Miguel is a grown man.  He can sit and watch TV for a few hours while his wife visits with the son she hasn't seen in a while and who has been going through a major upheaval in his life.  

Randall totally twisted the knife by telling Kevin that Kate only went to a taping because she worked for Kevin.

They redid the kitchen by the time the kids were teens. Jack works in construction. I'm surprised they didn't build a bedroom in the basement sooner. A bit of drywall, some paint, some flooring and a door. Done. Teenagers on different schedules generally appreciate their own rooms. Randall should have space to do his homework and Kevin should be allowed to sleep. Again, he is just like his dad and needs the light off in order to sleep.

In the last episode, Randall couldn't explain his own job and neither could his wife. Now Kevin can't. LOL. 

I got the impression that Miguel was a serial philanderer from the way Jack was giving him the "not again, dude" look.

[topanga]

10 hours ago, Arynm said:

I can see Kevins issue this episode. He had one thing that he was good at and that his parents came to see only him and in his eyes Randall took that from him. Football was Kevins thing. From Randalls point of view he was trying to do something that Kevin liked so that maybe they would have something to do together.  I don't think Randall was trying to take the spotlight off Kevin by playing football.

I can sympathize with both of them. I've been in a family where a parent clearly favors one sibling (who wasn't me). And that sibling is allowed to do horrible things without punishment, like getting your bike stolen, stealing money from you, destroying your dolls... I know Randall didn't do any of those things as a kid, but he did other annoying things like snatching his Kevin's Rubik's Cube out of his hands so he could finish it. And instead of being chastised by Rebecca, he was praised for finishing the puzzle.  And Rebecca should have told Randall he needed to do his homework someplace else in the house so Kevin could sleep. So I felt Kevin's pain.

But overall, Randall wasn't a jerk to Kevin. I agree with you Arynm that the resentment he should have had for Rebecca was heaped onto Randall. 

1 hour ago, PRgal said:

I don't buy Randall also playing football.  It could be that he played to please the family (being football fans and all), but somehow I just can't see it.  And he doesn't know who Mario Lopez is?  Unless in their universe, Saved by the Bell never existed (Kate would have watched the show, right?)...

Randall was probably recruited for football despite never having played because he was a black kid at a predominantly white school. I'm sure the coach assumed he'd be a good athlete, and fortunately (or unfortunately), he was.  Although I doubt he was ever as aggressive as he was the night he went after Kevin.  BTW, My kids said Randall was a great outside linebacker. I'll have to take their word for it. 

 

1 hour ago, Haleth said:

I agree Kate's storyline is the weakest.  She needs to decide to get far away from Toby and move to NY with her siblings.  There needs to be more to her than a weight issue.

I agree. I loved Kate's storyline at the beginning of the season. But I like her best when she's interacting with her brothers. 

As a teenager, Kate served as the go-between for Randall and Kevin. Even in the car, where she was literally seated between them. I'd love to see how the three of them interact as adults. 

 

56 minutes ago, luna1122 said:

I laughed out loud at  Kevin's 'wow, someone's high' as they walk into the house and see William and Beth. The weed brownies scenes were hilarious.

I loved that Kevin immediately knew that Beth was high. Or maybe he knew both of them were. 

And I understood Randall's anger about his former-junkie father getting high with his wife. Although I'm assuming he knew Beth had a stash of weed, since they don't keep secrets from one another. Heck, he was probably the one who scored it from a dealer. 

Edited November 16, 2016 by topanga
Because saying "probably" too many times in a paragraph is definitely annoying.

[DrSpaceman73]

Toby was a real douche this episode.  There is no way that relationship is going to work.  Plus you lose 8 pounds and you're like "I am done!"  Sorry Toby, you still have a LONG way to go.  I thought Kate would be the one dropping out.  And eating in front of her like that, even if she tells you to do so, just stupid. 

I can at least empathize with Kevin over Randall.  Kevin does seem to be the ignored one and given the love for the Steelers in the family likely started playing football to get some extra parental attention, then Randall comes along and plays as well.  I am wondering when Kevin started acting.

 

Kevin obviously chose that restaurant so he and Randall would not have to be alone or talk.  I even wonder if Randall faked that conversation with his mom just so they had to go themselves based on the conversation with his wife earlier.  Either way though, Randall literally not letting Kevin talk to his mom obviously caused some hurt feelings.  But then Kevin returns the favor in the restaurant, not letting Randall in on taking the selfie. 

I can't believe only Kate came to his opening and to see him in The Manny.  At least his mom.  I can see Randall not wanting to go, but hard to believe their mom never came. 

I didn't recognize Seth Myers.  Funny scene though.  Those pictures and videos ought to end up on Youtube.

I hope neither of the parents have an affair, too cliché. 

[PRgal]

8 minutes ago, topanga said:

I can sympathize with both of them. I've been in a family where a parent clearly favors one sibling (who wasn't me). And that sibling is allowed to do horrible things without punishment, like getting your bike stolen, stealing money from you, destroying your dolls... I know Randall didn't do any of those things as a kid, but he did other annoying things like snatching his Kevin's Rubik's Cube out of his hands so he could finish it. And instead of being chastised by Rebecca, he was praised for finishing the puzzle.  And Rebecca should have told Randall he needed to do his homework someplace else in the house so Kevin could sleep. So I felt Kevin's pain.

But overall, Randall wasn't a jerk to Kevin. I agree with you Arynm that the resentment should have had for Rebecca was heaped onto Randall. 

Randall was probably recruited for football despite never having played because he was a black kid at a predominantly white school. The coach probably assumed he'd be a good athlete, and fortunately (or unfortunately), he was.  Although he probably was never as aggressive as he was the night he went after Kevin.  BTW, My kids said Randall was a great outside linebacker. I'll have to take their word for it. 

 

I agree. I loved Kate's storyline at the beginning of the season. But I like her best when she's interacting with her brothers. 

As a teenager, Kate served as the go-between for Randall and Kevin. Even in the car, where she was literally seated between them. I'd love to see how the three of them interact as adults. 

I loved that Kevin immediately knew that Beth was high. Or maybe he knew both of them were. 

And I understood Randall's anger about his former-junkie father getting high with his wife. Although I'm assuming he knew Beth had a stash of weed, since they don't keep secrets from one another. Heck, he was probably the one who scored it from a dealer. 

Is it possible William is on medicinal marijuana?  And Kate wearing make-up:  They'd be 13-14 in that episode, correct?  I was definitely wearing SOME make-up then (though not as much as Kate).  Many of my peers were. 

[Biggie B]

Kevin was certainly vile as a teenager, but not anything we haven't seen and/or experienced before, with our own siblings or our children. It was heartbreaking to hear some of the things Kevin said to Randall, all the while understanding where his anger is coming from. I'm not excusing him or justifying his behavior, but it rang so true. Kudos to the two young actors, they were excellent and completely and utterly believable to me.

As has already been said, the casting and acting was stellar. I actually thought for a moment that the teenaged Kate might be related to the adult actress! As for adult Kate...yes, I agree, she and her storyline are now totally disconnected from her brothers. It's like we're watching two different shows in one. Where is the thread that binds her to Kevin and Randall? She really, really needs to fly east to be with them, for some reason - even if she herself doesn't relocate to the east coast, there's got to be some face-to-face interaction soon. As for the whole Toby situation...I am NOT a Toby fan but I will grudgingly admit that he can do whatever he wants vis a vis his food consumption and dieting. He doesn't have to answer to Kate; it's up to her to decide if she can deal with being around him while he eats foods that are inappropriate for her. No one is forcing her to stay with him. I was really disappointed in Kate for saying she'd just have to deal with it. No, no she doesn't. If she needs to be selfish in order to make this weight loss thing happen, then she should do so - she needs to put herself first, and if that means extricating herself from a relationship in which she feels challenged every moment, then so be it. And again, it's not up to Toby to change his behavior, he can do as he wishes (I really don't like defending him, but it's only fair!). It's really a no-win scenario if Kate stays with Toby; even when they're not together, she'll know that he's at home or elsewhere, possibly eating stuff she can't have, and then resenting him - and herself - for it. And I actually did believe Toby when he said he'd support her...but it was not easy watching him eat that gross dessert in front of her. Even though she said, sure, sure, go ahead, I can't imagine she really meant that. I was also very dismayed at the gas station scene. Another person above pointed out that there are myriad reasons why weight gain happens, and this scene played into the stereotypical notion that we heavier people can't control ourselves and eat junk food at any given opportunity. Seeing Kate in her new job in the last episode was a high point for this character...tonight was not, which I get - we all have our big ups and big downs.

Beth and William - what can be said that hasn't already been said? Amazing scenes and holy crap, the cat (William's cat, Clooney?) is out of the bag now...yikes!

I found my attention wandering during the Jack and Rebecca flashbacks. I kinda don't care about Rebecca's singing (is that just to accommodate Mandy Moore?) and I totally missed what happened at Jack's workplace with the flirting secretary? I'll have to read a recap of the show for that.

Still haven't shed one tear yet over this show and may never - not my style - but I am engrossed. It is solid storytelling, which I appreciate as a viewer. There is a richness to many of the scenes that is engaging and challenging. I am definitely becoming invested in most of the characters and truly want to see their stories unfold. I'm willing to go along for the ride.

[DrSpaceman73]

3 minutes ago, PRgal said:

Is it possible William is on medicinal marijuana?  And Kate wearing make-up:  They'd be 13-14 in that episode, correct?  I was definitely wearing SOME make-up then (though not as much as Kate).  Many of my peers were. 

I think they were older than this.  Likely at least 16 if Kevin is playing football and a college recruiter is coming to see him play.

[PRgal]

1 minute ago, DrSpaceman73 said:

I think they were older than this.  Likely at least 16 if Kevin is playing football and a college recruiter is coming to see him play.

Which is even weirder regarding the comment of Kate wearing too much make-up.  The kind of make-up Kate was wearing wouldn't typically get a 16 year old in trouble.  And it probably makes MORE sense for them to be 16ish - most 14-year-olds don't have mature voices like the boys did last night.  

[Lady Calypso]

Man, I can see both of Randall and Kevin's perspectives.

It really sucks to see how dismissive Rebecca is over Kevin, especially in the flashbacks. That beginning scene when Rebecca clearly took Randall's side and having it be all about Randall has to be rough. Young Kevin was definitely a douche, but clearly with good reason. Watching his own mother favour his adoptive brother over him has to sting. It doesn't give him the right to have such a bad attitude, though. Randall really wanted to be close to his brother, but Kevin's jealousy issues clearly clouded his judgment and it definitely had its consequences. 

I definitely see Kevin's perspective more because my relationship with my sister was very similar. I was jealous that she got all the attention from our parents, although it was because she began having a lot of issues in high school and my parents had to deal with it, which meant that I got left out. We recently had a hashing out with our issues, and we both realized that we felt the same way about each other. She was jealous of me in a similar way that I was jealous of her. We still have our issues but we're a lot better than we were three years ago. But sometimes, it takes an actual fight to see that side. And clearly, it's taken thirty six years for these two to talk things out. 

So, I think they are hinting at Jack having some memory issues. Whether it's early Alzheimer's or a brain tumour or some sort, that remains to be seen. I also don't think Jack's having an affair but Rebecca will suspect it and maybe Miguel will let her in on it. Jack has a growing beard again, at least, and Rebecca's hair looks great.

Of course Toby's binging on his diet. I can't blame Kate for being upset, but she's definitely more upset because she can't seem to lose the weight and she's jealous that Toby can so easily. I sympathize on a different level. A lot of jealousy issues in this episode with the siblings. I do think Kate's insecurities is taking over her life, even more so with her boyfriend. I don't love Toby, but his wanting to give up on his diet because he's lost the weight that he's wanted to isn't his fault. It's really not his fault that she's unable to lose the weight as fast as he has. It sucks for her, really, but it's not Toby's responsibility.  It's hers, and hers alone.

They got the casting so right on the teen kids, though. I am very impressed. Especially Young Kate. 

William and Beth being high was hilarious, especially when the eldest daughter (Tess?) came downstairs and Beth turned on Mom Mode. I'm glad to know a bit more about Beth. But her finding out about William's secret? Now she has to decide whether to break Randall's heart or not. But maybe it'll get Kevin to sympathize with Randall when he finds out that his mother has been lying to him since birth. 

I did laugh at the Seth Meyers cameo. This show is getting some good cameos in. 

[topanga]

12 minutes ago, DrSpaceman73 said:

I hope neither of the parents have an affair, too cliché. 

Cliché, but it happens. A lot. Especially when a couple starts to drift apart. I think the show is setting it up: Jack forgot to kiss Rebecca goodbye. She didn't notice his top button being undone (although that's not Rebecca's job. So FU, Secretary!).

 

10 hours ago, Jx223 said:

And that was Morris Chesnut. And I thought he looked really good,lol. 

Hell, yeah he did. Morris Chestnut's shirtless scenes were some of my favorite moments from "The Best Man" and "The Best Man Holiday." And if my dreams come true, the upcoming third installment titled, "The Best Man at the Beach."

But back on topic: Randall went for the jugular when he told Kevin, "Once again, 'The Manny' is being replaced by a black guy." So Randall did know that Kevin felt like an outsider with his own mother. Not cool, Randall. 

Edited November 16, 2016 by topanga

[SimoneS]

I have two major issues with how the writers have approached Kate's story. First, Kate being upset that Toby lost 8 lbs to her 1.75 lbs doesn't bode well for their relationship since men have faster metabolisms than women.  If Toby sticks to their joint weight loss regimes, he will always lose more weight at their weigh-ins and will ultimately reach his weight loss goal before Kate. What then? How will Kate cope? It will only increase her insecurities. Is the show suggesting that Kate should only date normal weight men or not date at all until she reaches her weight loss goal? That is cruel and dumb.

Secondly, the most research has found that weight gain is linked to genetics which is why most people (yes, there are exceptions, but they are just that) who struggle with their weight do so for most of their lives, losing and regaining the weight on various diets programs. Surgery is the most effective weight loss treatment. Does the show intend to go there? What does this mean for the actress?

It is early days, but I hope we get more from Kate other than her weight issues. There has got to be more to her than that.

Edited November 16, 2016 by SimoneS

[Guest]

I thought this was a great episode.  I was annoyed at the Toby misdirect though, but I'm glad he wasn't cheating on Kate.  I wondered momentarily if it was going to be that he was purposely sabotaging his diet so he didn't do so much better than Kate at the next weigh-in.  I think I would have preferred that to him eating dessert in front of her.  Even if she said it didn't bother her, he should have known.

The boys storyline broke me.  They are both right and wrong at the same time. The football game was the first time this show made me cry.

Are we supposed to hate Miguel? I feel like we are, but that doesn't seem to make much sense. If that's not what they're going for, they need to make the character more likable.  Who can't go to dinner with their adult sons because of their husband having gout?  He can't be alone for a few hours?

[GodsBeloved]

11 hours ago, Amethyst said:

 Also, was Randall keeping the phone from Kevin, or was Rebecca just avoiding Kevin?  I don't think Kate or Kevin has a good relationship with their mother.

Why is Kevin living with his brother?  Am I missing something?  Even with him off The Manny, he should have enough money to stay at a decent hotel.  Was that Morris Chestnut as the new Manny?

It's weird though. Kevin seemed pretty anxious to talk to Rebecca so I'm not convinced his relationship with her is like Kate's.

I thought Kevin said in the beginning he was "dropping by" because he didn't like being in the hotel alone(paraphrasing) and I just assume that's why he's staying even though Beth basically told him he needs to leave.

If Jack is having/will have an affair, Rebecca seems to have gotten over it since she's still wearing the necklace he gave her. If Rebecca does end up having an affair, I wonder if that is another reason she and Kate don't have a good relationship.

[Jx223]

4 hours ago, jacksgirl said:

 Kevin is still so immature, deal with it buddy. You're a TV star with a show that was a hit for years. 

 

I think that as an adult Kevin needs to mature and find a way to let that go. I'm definitely not going to give him a pass to act jerky towards Randall in adulthood for something that started happening when they were kids. 

I think that Kevin is also very self-absorbed and I think he would be that way regardless of whether or not he got equal attention from Rebecca.

 

2 hours ago, luna1122 said:

 

 Kate often comes off as unlikable. What Toby eats is honestly none of her business. He didn't have to explain his 'food mistress' to her, and her disappointment and anger over it seemed really controlling and selfish. 

I actually appreciated Toby's honesty and how he declared he was done with dieting. Some people are simply not going to stay on a restrictive diet for the rest of their lives,regardless of what their  size is. Plus, he knows he can drop weight a little easier than some others and that may make him feel more comfortable with his decision.

I think Kate has to do what is best for her to help her achieve her weight loss goals.Even if that is being single for a while. But I think she needs to realize that she can't dictate what is on Toby's plate or anybody else's (except maybe her future kids.) She might have a hard time dating if she doesn't come to that realization unless she only decides to date people who eat really restrictive diets.

1 hour ago, kili said:

Kevin and his Mom must have an absolute terrible relationship. She never went to see a taping of his show? Yikes. 

 

It seems like Rebecca doesn't want to be around Kevin and I think she is harboring negative feelings towards him. I wonder if Kevin said some really hurtful/hateful things to her right after Jack died and she never fully recovered from that type of vitriol. I could see Kevin spinning further out of control if Jack died when they were teens and lashing out at Rebecca in a very harsh way.

She may have never been able to fully forgive that type of behavior when she was at the lowest point of her life. I suspect something similar could have happened with Kate as well.

Edited November 16, 2016 by Jx223

[SimoneS]

33 minutes ago, topanga said:

But back on topic: Randall went for the jugular when he told Kevin, "Once again, 'The Manny' is being replaced by a black guy." So Randall did know that Kevin felt like an outsider with his own mother. Not cool, Randall. 

Kevin is the one who said that once again he was being replaced a black guy, not Randall. This is why Randall confronted Kevin.

Btw, Morris Chestnut did look good on the poster. 

Spouses cheat all the time so I don't think that it is cliche that either Jack or Rebecca or both of them cheat. 

[Big Mother]

Kate's storyline is so frustrating to me, because a woman with that much excess weight would do so much better with bariatric surgery. Why has that never been explored? OA diets just won't do it. And she possibly has a medical problem, like a thyroid issue. It's so annoying when shows just do the 'overweight' storyline with the character struggling and struggling without trying the things that would really help.

As for William, medical marijuana is not meant to baked into brownies. I think it comes in pill form and is purchased at special dispensaries.

[Tikichick]

Just now, Big Mother said:

Kate's storyline is so frustrating to me, because a woman with that much excess weight would do so much better with bariatric surgery. Why has that never been explored? OA diets just won't do it. And she possibly has a medical problem, like a thyroid issue. It's so annoying when shows just do the 'overweight' storyline with the character struggling and struggling without trying the things that would really help.

As for William, medical marijuana is not meant to baked into brownies. I think it comes in pill form and is purchased at special dispensaries.

The brownies confused me.  Usually chemo side effects are nausea/lack of appetite. 

[Big Mother]

Medical marijuana helps reduce nausea.

[Primetimer]

Before everything comes out in the wash.

View the full article

[Cheyanne11]

5 minutes ago, Big Mother said:

 

As for William, medical marijuana is not meant to baked into brownies. I think it comes in pill form and is purchased at special dispensaries.

It wasn't medical marijuana; Beth just had a weed stash.  However, marijuana dispensaries have a wide array  of products--everything from pre-rolled joints to all sorts of edibles.

[Big Mother]

I don't think Jack is cheating. I think the secretary is flirting with both Miguel and Jack. The question is where this storyline is going. I think Jack and Rebecca are still very committed.

I think both Jack and Rebecca are going through a midlife crisis, and a typical point in their marriage where they're both looking for something fulfilling and stimulating and their interests make them drift apart. A really strong marriage can usually withstand these normal ups and downs.

[luna1122]

2 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

The brownies confused me.  Usually chemo side effects are nausea/lack of appetite. 

But it was Beth's stash, right? Not medical weed. And she suggested the brownies because he was sick and had no appetite from the chemo.

Spouses do cheat all the time but plenty don't, too.  It would be nice to be able to root for Jack and Rebecca and believe in the love story til his death. The cheating would tarnish all that came before and render the more romantic stuff sort of hollow. I'm not even a die hard romantic, but I'd like to see this one be real.

Rebecca not going to a taping of Kevin's show might indicate estrangement, but it WAS filmed in LA,  across the country from her.  Maybe they always meant to go but just never got around to the trip.

[Big Mother]

The Seth Meyers cameo cracked me up.

I was able to see both sides of the coin in the Kevin/Randall sitution. I guess in the 1980s therapy for kids wasn't acceptable... I have a special needs son and my neurotypical son feels very resentful and acts out. He sees a therapist once a week to help deal with that. Such a pity that neither Kevin nor Randall got that kind of help as children. I have a hard time believing that they never discussed it or expressed their jealousy at all in the 18 years they have been apart. Unless they never talked in those 18 yrs?

[kili]

Quote

Rebecca not going to a taping of Kevin's show might indicate estrangement, but it WAS filmed in LA,  across the country from her.  Maybe they always meant to go but just never got around to the trip.

Miguel's "gout" probably kept flaring up.  

Kevin was on the show for 4 years....she never got around to it in 4 years? Most people can find time in their busy schedule over a period of 4 years. Kevin invited her. Kevin was the star of the show. It was important to Kevin. She didn't want to go.

[random chance]

21 minutes ago, Big Mother said:

And she possibly has a medical problem, like a thyroid issue.

I would think so, because at her weight and doing everything right the way she was, she should certainly have lost more than a pound and change. Just carrying around that much weight burns calories like crazy. I don't like that the show isn't even bothering to have her go to a doctor.

[luna1122]

8 minutes ago, kili said:

Miguel's "gout" probably kept flaring up.  

Kevin was on the show for 4 years....she never got around to it in 4 years? Most people can find time in their busy schedule over a period of 4 years. Kevin invited her. Kevin was the star of the show. It was important to Kevin. She didn't want to go.

I'm not saying it shouldn't have been a priority and does likely indicate indifference or not enough interest in Kevin's dealings and life than she should have had. But it's not like she could just impulsively go, either. I don't know. My mom hates to travel and won't get on a plane. If I had a show in LA, chances are, she'd never make it. Not to say that's the reason behind Rebecca's not showing up, but there are other reasons.

I do think it's weird we haven't seen Kate go to a doctor too, but even if she has, even if she has a thyroid issue and is taking meds for it, losing weight is still super difficult. I'm on thyroid meds and still find it nearly impossible to lose weight unless I'm doing 1000 calories a day and working out for three hours every day. And I'm....not doing that.

Edited November 16, 2016 by luna1122

[againstthewind]

3 minutes ago, random chance said:

I would think so, because at her weight and doing everything right the way she was, she should certainly have lost more than a pound and change. Just carrying around that much weight burns calories like crazy. I don't like that the show isn't even bothering to have her go to a doctor.

I didn't buy that either. I'm a size 6 and I went on a very similar diet of awful cardboard food before a wedding and lost 3 lbs in two weeks. At that weight, the pounds would be dropping off her since she's at beginning of her journey.

I'd like to echo those who see parallels in their relationships with their siblings with Kevin and Randall. My sister and I are a year and half apart and in the midst of hashing out those issues now in our late twenties. Our parents treated us both well, but very differently. My sister was jealous of certain aspects of who I am, whereas I was jealous of certain aspects of her life. In our late teens, it got ugly and we barely talked from age 20-27.

[Lady Calypso]

1 hour ago, topanga said:

But back on topic: Randall went for the jugular when he told Kevin, "Once again, 'The Manny' is being replaced by a black guy." So Randall did know that Kevin felt like an outsider with his own mother. Not cool, Randall. 

Randall definitely went for the jugular, but actually, Kevin was the one who said this about The Manny. It's what made Randall stop and instigate the fight. However, Randall did spout the line about Kate only being at Kevin's tapings because she was being paid, which is just as bad. 

33 minutes ago, Jx223 said:

It seems like Rebecca doesn't want to be around Kevin and I think she is harboring negative feelings towards him. I wonder if Kevin said some really hurtful/hateful things to her right after Jack died and she never fully recovered from that type of vitriol. I could see Kevin spinning further out of control if Jack died when they were teens and lashing out at Rebecca in a very harsh way.

I could definitely see this being the case. I could see why years of jealousy and resentment over Rebecca basically ignoring Kevin and his needs would erupt as soon as Jack died. However, Rebecca would be more at fault than Kevin for me in this case because she's supposed to be his mother. I wonder how she does deal with him when Jack does die, whether that's as a teenager or a young adult. Kevin in the present seems to just want to know his mother again and if she was really lying about Miguel's gout, then that's a pretty harsh way to drop your relationships with two out of three of your children. And now with William's secret probably coming out soon, Rebecca's going to have to deal with her prized son being mad at her. 

I don't know; we've had seven episodes to see that Kevin and Rebecca have never had a good relationship, and that is because of Rebecca's favouritism with Randall over Kevin and even Kate. We know Kate's relationship with Rebecca is strained because of her weight issues. We know that Kevin's relationship with Rebecca seems to be nonexistent because of Rebecca always choosing the other kids over him. And seeing as next week is the Thanksgiving episode, we'll probably finally get answers on the Kevin/Rebecca front, which has been the most curious as we haven't had any good one-on-one scenes with them. 

[memememe76]

20 minutes ago, Big Mother said:

The Seth Meyers cameo cracked me up.

I was able to see both sides of the coin in the Kevin/Randall sitution. I guess in the 1980s therapy for kids wasn't acceptable... I have a special needs son and my neurotypical son feels very resentful and acts out. He sees a therapist once a week to help deal with that. Such a pity that neither Kevin nor Randall got that kind of help as children. I have a hard time believing that they never discussed it or expressed their jealousy at all in the 18 years they have been apart. Unless they never talked in those 18 yrs?

When they graduated, Randall and Kevin probably went to different schools. Did Kevin go to college? And then Randall met Beth and they seemed to have gotten married and started a family pretty soon. Kevin moved to LA at some point and became a tv star. Yeah, even if they wanted to talk, which they didn't, logistically they couldn't. 

[Biggie B]

Quote

Kate's storyline is so frustrating to me, because a woman with that much excess weight would do so much better with bariatric surgery. Why has that never been explored?

I believe it's been established that the actress herself is actually the weight that Kate is  - it's real, not padding. So if the actress does not want to or cannot undergo surgery in "real life", the best the show could do would be to have a quick scene with Kate and a doctor explaining why surgery isn't appropriate for her. Logistically, if the actual actress underwent such a procedure, I would think it would be rather difficult to incorporate it into the show (if the actress even permitted such). I only know three people who've undergone weight-loss surgery, and sadly, one passed away from complications a few days later. Another one had to have hers reversed after two or so years...again, internal complications.  I truly wonder if the show would make such a personal and possibly risky part of the actress' real life a part of the show (which yes, her weight already is, but...surgery seems so much more intimate and personal).

[topanga]

46 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

Kevin is the one who said that once again he was being replaced a black guy, not Randall. This is why Randall confronted Kevin.

Btw, Morris Chestnut did look good on the poster. 

Spouses cheat all the time so I don't think that it is cliche that either Jack or Rebecca or both of them cheat. 

Two people have said it--you're probably right. I'll have to re-watch that scene. I thought for sure that Randall was the one who said something mean. It sure felt like it. Maybe it was as simple as Randall asking, "Is that the new Manny?" Knowing darn well that would upset Kevin. 

Edited November 16, 2016 by topanga

[lawyergal]

I, for one, love the fact that this show is showing a more realistic (in my opinion) relationship between teenage brothers/siblings that the sugar sweet, everyone loves each other and realizes it in the end, relationship that TV/movies usually portray for young siblings. Kevin and Randall's relationship is more similar to the one I had with my brother, and my two teenage children have, than anything else I have ever seen on TV. Teenagers are cruel, and they are usually cruel to their families - because those are the people they feel the most safe about being cruel toward. And, even when a parent tries to guilt them into seeing the error of the ways, they usually don't. So, good for this show in showing that.

While yes, young Kevin is being a brat, I don't think it's fair to call him entitled, with a negative connotation. As between he and Randall in his family, they should be equals - and, they are "entitled" to equal treatment and love from their parents. Certainly that doesn't always happen, even when race and adoption isn't in the picture. But, I think Kevin is right in expecting to receive that.

[Jx223]

17 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

 

I could definitely see this being the case. I could see why years of jealousy and resentment over Rebecca basically ignoring Kevin and his needs would erupt as soon as Jack died. However, Rebecca would be more at fault than Kevin for me in this case because she's supposed to be his mother. I wonder how she does deal with him when Jack does die, whether that's as a teenager or a young adult. 

 

I think that if Jack died when the kids were still teens that is going to be such a very devastating and Ugly time for everyone. I think that not only will she be dealing with losing him, she's going to have to deal with Kevin/Kate lashing out at her. I could see them turning on her. I could also see this causing her to grow even closer to Randall. 

I hope that if this is the case that Rebecca will still find a way to forgive Kevin (and Kate) and make amends with them.I also want to see what steps they take in trying to improve their relationships with their mother. Now that they are adults I feel like they have more power than they did as kids to help make their relationship with their mom better.

Randall may have withheld the phone from Kevin in his office but Kevin still could attempt to call his mom other times. Or even show up and visit her, (even unexpectedly like he did with Randall and Beth.) If he wants to talk to her badly enough he can try and find a way. So can Kate. Kevin really did seem like he was anxious to talk to his mom and I wonder what efforts he's made to talk to her before and how they were received.

I am definitely interested in seeing how Rebecca interacts with Kevin/Kate on Thanskgiving and what efforts they all may try and make to get along better.

[Tikichick]

59 minutes ago, Big Mother said:

Medical marijuana helps reduce nausea.

 

56 minutes ago, luna1122 said:

But it was Beth's stash, right? Not medical weed. And she suggested the brownies because he was sick and had no appetite from the chemo.

Spouses do cheat all the time but plenty don't, too.  It would be nice to be able to root for Jack and Rebecca and believe in the love story til his death. The cheating would tarnish all that came before and render the more romantic stuff sort of hollow. I'm not even a die hard romantic, but I'd like to see this one be real.

Rebecca not going to a taping of Kevin's show might indicate estrangement, but it WAS filmed in LA,  across the country from her.  Maybe they always meant to go but just never got around to the trip.

Which is precisely why BROWNIES confused me.  If you're nauseous/don't have an appetite, the marijuana is supposed to help.  Difficult to do if you've got to EAT it. 

[ShadowFacts]

54 minutes ago, Big Mother said:

Medical marijuana helps reduce nausea.

Aside from nausea reduction, it is a well-known appetite stimulant, that's where "the munchies" come from.  Not that I would personally know.

I am enjoying some of the small touches, such as that Randall as a teen still had his baby blanket. 

One touch that looked stupid to me was Toby's obvious pregnancy belly they're padding him with. 

8 minutes ago, lawyergal said:

While yes, young Kevin is being a brat, I don't think it's fair to call him entitled, with a negative connotation. As between he and Randall in his family, they should be equals - and, they are "entitled" to equal treatment and love from their parents. Certainly that doesn't always happen, even when race and adoption isn't in the picture. But, I think Kevin is right in expecting to receive that.

Agree, except that he is taking his lack of receiving equal treatment out on the wrong person.  And continues to do so even though the person who he could start sorting it out with is still alive and nearby. 

[Trixie Belden]

Oddly enough, my 29 year old son was over last night and we had a serious/deep talk about some family things, feelings and the total estrangement between him and his 30 year old brother.  Part of what we talked about was the parallels between their relationship and the one I have with my 2 siblings.  And then he leaves and our conversation was played out on tv.

Childhood wounds are deep and if left long enough, the scar tissue takes a long time to get through.  As a kid/teenager, Randall could reach out to Kevin all day and night but Kevin would still shut him down, so eventually what's the point (in Randall's pov). They had Kate as a buffer as well as physical distance, but now Kate is across the country and they are Kevin is physically in Randall's space; he's hanging out with the family and moved himself in without really asking.  Now that Kevin is reaching out, Randall is the one being cautious.  The recap mentioned being worried that the scene showing them watching tv together indicated that the show was going to go on like everything was solved.  I really don't think it will, because it has been SO on point with these relationships so far.  Healing childhood relationships in adulthood is a very up and down path that takes time.  One slapfight and tv binge makeup doesn't make all the hurt and resentment built up over years go away.  We'll see more friction between them, I'm sure of it.

I think Rebecca and Jack's shock at the football game when Kevin and Randall fought just showed how involved they are mentally in their own stuff that they hadn't even noticed the relationship between the boys has gotten that bad.  As far as Rebecca favoring Randall, remember she initially couldn't bond with him and went to talk to Major Dad about it.  She likely has some guilt over that which, along with the racial difference/poor abandoned baby stuff caused her to overcompensate with him.  Kate embarrasses her because of her weight and she just figures Kevin is always going to be ok.  

I think the whole washing machine theme was to show how even while life is moving on and kids are growing up and you're getting older, less fulfilled with your life/marriage, the mundane things are constant; doing laundry never changes while everything else does.

[againstthewind]

2 minutes ago, ShadowFacts said:

Aside from nausea reduction, it is a well-known appetite stimulant, that's where "the munchies" come from.  Not that I would personally know.

I am enjoying some of the small touches, such as that Randall as a teen still had his baby blanket. 

One touch that looked stupid to me was Toby's obvious pregnancy belly they're padding him with. 

Agree, except that he is taking his lack of receiving equal treatment out on the wrong person.  And continues to do so even though the person who he could start sorting it out with is still alive and nearby. 

Except that adult Randall seems to be more bitter than adult Kevin. Teenage Kevin was a jackass, but most 16 year olds are when something is upsetting them. They can't maturely articulate why they're upset, so they act like assholes.

[luna1122]

I could eat brownies even if I was barfing up a lung.

 

ETA: it's a joke. mostly.

Edited November 16, 2016 by luna1122

[Trixie Belden]

4 minutes ago, ShadowFacts said:

One touch that looked stupid to me was Toby's obvious pregnancy belly they're padding him with. 

Agree, except that he is taking his lack of receiving equal treatment out on the wrong person.  And continues to do so even though the person who he could start sorting it out with is still alive and nearby. 

Amen to that padded belly!

Kevin is going to take it out on Randall because he most likely doesn't even realize he's actually mad at his mother.  And if he did get that, he may not even want to go there with her since their relationship is fragile at best, he doesn't want to do anything to damage it further.  Kevin wants more than anything to feel like his mom loves him as much as she loves Randall.  He's not a terribly introspective kind of guy, so he would need a good therapist to help him unpack all these feelings and untangle them so he could get a clearer picture of what he feels.  Then they'd need a great therapist to work with him and Rebecca to sort it all out.  

[Tikichick]

3 minutes ago, luna1122 said:

I could eat brownies even if I was barfing up a lung.

You can still eat when actively nauseous and vomiting?

Brava, I guess.

[kili]

Quote

Except that adult Randall seems to be more bitter than adult Kevin.

That was illustrated in the jogging scene. Kevin is happily jogging along and sees his brother so he speeds up to catch up so they can talk. It's Randall who refuses to chat and insists on making it a one-upmanship contest.

While Kevin definitely took out his anger at Rebecca's behaviour (ignoring him his entire life) on the wrong person, Kevin is not the only jealous person. Randall seems to be jealous of Kevin as well - he did not look happy that his co-workers were fawning over Kevin (I think that is one of the reasons he was petty about the phone call) or all the attention Kevin got at the restaurant. I wonder if there were some extra issues in the brother relationship when Kevin started publicly excelling at something.  It would give Randall another reason for never having watched the show. 

[saber5055]

I know the show had to use brownies so they could write in the kid wanting some, but chemo causes nausea. William did not want to eat dinner because of that. He should have just smoked the weed. They were down the basement/outside anyway, so why not. And Kate's method of dieting ... everyone would hate it. Eating "cardboard" tasteless food? Walking on a boring inside treadmill? You're in LA, girl, get a bunch of those weight-loss groupies to go walking in Hollywood Hills, and eat some salmon and steamed veg. How about a Weight Watchers cone or brownie (hash free) for dessert? There are good food choices, especially in southern Cali, where everyone is on a diet. Why isn't the weight-loss-group leader teaching these people how to eat? And yes, men ALWAYS lose weight faster. Toby eating that gross over-kill dessert in the restaurant was disgusting and stupid. Kate said to, but did she really mean it? I say she did not. I don't like Toby or think he's good for Kate. Time to bail, girl.

[Ms Blue Jay]

8 hours ago, Bretley said:

 Tonight both Toby and Kate binge out on junk food, cementing the misconception that obesity is simply a result of a lack of self-control and that all fat folks just sit around making endless terrible choices. 

It's so hard for me to watch television's portrayal of obesity.  I am obese by BMI standards.  I never eat like that.  For the rest of my life even if I never touch junk food I am pretty convinced I would continue to gain 10 lbs a year until death.  (I'm very confident I have the kind of body that needs to work out every day to stay the same.)  There are obese people like me who have motivational issues that prevent us from being super fit - instead of people who eat ice cream every day.  I haven't touched pop or fast food in a decade or more.  I try to never even eat bread, for instance. I don't eat ice cream because I'm lactose intolerant.  It's so fucking either/or on television, with no room for middle ground.

Edited November 16, 2016 by Ms Blue Jay

[DearEvette]

27 minutes ago, topanga said:

Two people have said it--you're probably right. I'll have to re-watch that scene. I thought for sure that Randall was the one who said something mean. It sure felt like it. Maybe it was as simple as Randall asking, "Is that the new Manny?" Knowing darn well that would upset Kevin. 

Randall didn't see the billboard first.  It was Kevin.  Randall was talking and Kevin had stopped and was staring over Randall's shoulder fixedly, completely ignoring what Randall was saying.  That is when Randall looked over his shoulder to see what Kevin was staring at and saw the billboard too.  And started laughing.  It was actually kinda funny seeing Morris Chesnut as the *New* Manny.

I just felt so bad for Randall.  He didn't want Kevin to move to the basement.  He tried to reach out but got rejected.  Hell, it was obviously the latest in a series of rejections by Kevin given how Kevin didn't even acknowledge Randall as his brother back when they were five years old.  When he said "you treated me like a dog." with that catch in his voice, I could see it.  And when Kevin finally did acknowledge him out loud, you could see how profoundly that affected him. 

I know he's an actor but his "I would be the star in any other family" just makes Kevin seem so narcissistic.  Also makes me wonder if Kate with weight her issues which probably led to some self esteem issues, neatly kept her from being competition for him and that is why he was able to forge a real relationship with her.

[Jx223]

23 minutes ago, kili said:

That was illustrated in the jogging scene. Kevin is happily jogging along and sees his brother so he speeds up to catch up so they can talk. It's Randall who refuses to chat and insists on making it a one-upmanship contest.

While Kevin definitely took out his anger at Rebecca's behaviour (ignoring him his entire life) on the wrong person, Kevin is not the only jealous person. Randall seems to be jealous of Kevin as well - he did not look happy that his co-workers were fawning over Kevin (I think that is one of the reasons he was petty about the phone call) or all the attention Kevin got at the restaurant. 

I wonder if Randall is jealous of him or if it's just more about him holding a grudge against Kevin for the way he treated him when they were younger. Or some combination of both. He's definitely competitive with him. Up until this point though the show hasn't haven't really shown a reason why Randall would be jealous if Kevin. He was closer to Rebecca and had a good relationship with Jack. Randall has a family and job that he loves. It seems like he even has a decent relationship with Kate. Kevin hasn't been shown to have anything that he wants except for his love and affection.

Maybe something happened as they grew older to cause jealously but I think it Randall's feelings may me about holding a grudge/just being competitive. As they got older I believe they became more competitive with each other. I think that Kevin originally initiated that competition as he started to come into his own/excel at some things. And Randall pushed back partly due to the growing animosity between them.

I think Randall's reaction in his office was more about Kevin showing up at his workplace and trying to put the spotlight on himself.  In a situation that wasn't about him. I think that was more annoyance than jealously. I think that may have something Kevin started to do more once he started to excel at things/gain popularity. Kevin IMO seems a bit self-absorbed and unaware of how his behavior/actions affect other people sometimes.

Edited November 16, 2016 by Jx223

[DrSpaceman73]

Kevin is narcissistic.  The root of his narcissism though seem related to a lack of attention from his parents when younger and the strained relationship with his brother. 

Most people who are overweight do not have thyroid problems and other underlying medical reasons for it.  And many don't want to have bariatric surgery.  Plus I am sure someone has checked Kate's thyroid at some point, its a routine test, as long as she has seen in a doctor in the last 10 years.  I don't need the show to go over every medical detail and option for her as she struggles with her weight. 

It seems Kevin has mostly outgrown his jealousy issues with Randall, until they are brought to the forefront.  Randall seems to be the one 20 years later haning on to it more

[Tikichick]

6 minutes ago, DearEvette said:

Randall didn't see the billboard first.  It was Kevin.  Randall was talking and Kevin had stopped and was staring over Randall's shoulder fixedly, completely ignoring what Randall was saying.  That is when Randall looked over his shoulder to see what Kevin was staring at and saw the billboard too.  And started laughing.  It was actually kinda funny seeing Morris Chesnut as the *New* Manny.

I just felt so bad for Randall.  He didn't want Kevin to move to the basement.  He tried to reach out but got rejected.  Hell, it was obviously the latest in a series of rejections by Kevin given how Kevin didn't even acknowledge Randall as his brother back when they were five years old.  When he said "you treated me like a dog." with that catch in his voice, I could see it.  And when Kevin finally did acknowledge him out loud, you could see how profoundly that affected him. 

I know he's an actor but his "I would be the star in any other family" just makes Kevin seem so narcissistic.  Also makes me wonder if Kate with weight her issues which probably led to some self esteem issues, neatly kept her from being competition for him and that is why he was able to forge a real relationship with her.

It was painful for Randall, and his pain was acknowledged by his mom.  Kevin was also in pain for being an afterthought, particularly with his mom, a pain neither mom or dad acknowledged -- or even seemed to be aware of.  So rooting for both brothers to find their way to each other and each get a "win".  Of course it won't be easy or straightforward -- and will probably cause some imbalance in the relationship with Kate.  Then again, if it was simple and straightforward it could probably fill a half hour in much the same way The Brady Bunch approached life and sibling relationships and nobody would want to watch.

[Ms Blue Jay]

6 hours ago, jacksgirl said:

Kind of hate when adult siblings can't deal with childhood issues. One of 8 children and we hashtag birthday notices with siblings with #momlovedyoumost as a joke. Kevin is still so immature, deal with it buddy. You're a TV star with a show that was a hit for years. Love the teenage castings,  super job.

I know exactly what you mean.  I could go on for hours, but I love this statement.  When parents treat some (innocent, well-meaning) kids badly and other kids well (unfortunately it happens, I've seen it) it is really not the other kids' fault, unless they buy into their own false hype that they're somehow more special than their siblings and take that shit into adulthood.

Edited November 16, 2016 by Ms Blue Jay