S02.E03: All Signs Point to Josh... Or Is It Josh's Friend?

[taragel]

2 hours ago, JustaPerson said:

No, in the beginning of the episode Paula mentioned how she always wanted to be like Melanie Griffith in Working Girl wearing Nine West pumps

I got that part, but I also vaguely thought there was something about him and women's shoes back in S1. Like Rebecca commenting that he knew a lot about women's shoes after he complimented hers or something... I could be thinking of some other show though.

Edited November 6, 2016 by taragel

[Eeksquire]

Quote

From my point of view law school and being a lawyer kind of sucks so I want her to realize that having a baby is so much better.

Well, being a lawyer does kind of suck, but truthfully, Paula doesn't seem to like the kids she already has that much.  Given that, I don't know that a baby would be "so much better", especially since she really wants to be a lawyer. And, as someone who's worked in a law firm for a long time, she has a more realistic idea of what that actually entails than most law school entrants.

[Irlandesa]

9 hours ago, BooBear said:

I am torn on Paula getting into law school. From my point of view law school and being a lawyer kind of sucks so I want her to realize that having a baby is so much better.

It's really not an either/or.  She has children.  She hasn't expressed interest in having another baby.  I don't think she'd be thrilled about another baby even if she weren't planning on going to law school. A baby isn't just a financial investment but an emotional one.  If she goes to law school and decides it's not for her either during or after, sure she's out a lot of money but debt is all she's stuck with.  She's not stuck with the cost and the kid.

Edited November 7, 2016 by Irlandesa

[txhorns79]

Quote

Also, I wonder if they do anything to make Santino look taller because if not, Rachel must be very short.

According to the internet, he's 5'10 and Rachel is 5'3, so he is substantially taller than her. 

I do hope Greg goes to Atlanta.  I'd hate to lose him from the show for any substantial period, but his father is right that any relationship with Rebecca is likely to lead to disaster for him. 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Inside the episode:

 

The Math of Love Triangles:

[adam807]

On 11/4/2016 at 11:36 PM, Irlandesa said:

13% Karen Cartwright?  Pfft.  #TeamIvy

ALWAYS TEAM IVY

[aradia22]

Quote

According to the internet, he's 5'10 and Rachel is 5'3, so he is substantially taller than her. 

That can't be right. I'm 5'3. I've stood next to him... in flats. He's not 5'10.

[violetr]

Quote

 I am torn on Paula getting into law school. From my point of view law school and being a lawyer kind of sucks so I want her to realize that having a baby is so much better.

Paula's already had children. It's completely understandable and admirable thathe she's ready to try something new.

In other news, did anyone else recognize that bridge from the Buffy episode "Once More with Feeling"? 

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

Rebecca Drops A Bombshell On Crazy Ex-Girlfriend

Rebecca hangs the moon on what she believes to be a sign from fate, but when she gives all the heart will it make Josh cut, print, and move on? Poor Rebecca; they just keep moving the line!

[stillshimpy]

Quote

I am torn on Paula getting into law school. From my point of view law school and being a lawyer kind of sucks so I want her to realize that having a baby is so much better.

 

 

From this I can only conclude that law school is pure, unmitigated hell because she already has two children so it isn't as if she's in untested waters.   She also works with a bunch of lawyers and apparently has a very nimble mind so she already has some exposure to the law.  Also, sure babies are swell my son is a grown man these days and I'm super fond of him (understatement) but here's very specifically why I hope to all things merciful that is not where this story is going.  I think we are a bit  beyond having a woman realize that their true calling in life is to produce children.   Let her true calling being something other than biological, please show. 

Similarly, I hope that the story doesn't do that "she can have it all! An infant and law school, at once!" because whereas that was an important thing to convey when women were just sort of starting to wonder if they could have very targeted, intensive careers and children.  We've established that can be the case, but the era of "she can bring home the bacon...." and then do every other taxing, tiring thing was actually from a time period when  it was sort of a new concept. 

Paula has an unexpected and unwelcome pregnancy.   Her husband very carefully stepped around the language that would have indicated he envisions painting  a nursery and starting again.  He said they would see and they would deal with it (it was something very like that -- I was very focused on the language NOT containing anything baby related).  

I think it's Paula's husband who is going to broach the subject of abortion and not in the "get rid of it!" type of way just ....show a husband on TV being the person to suggest this, to support his wife throughout, telling her he believes in her and will be with her every step of the way of her abortion, if that's her choice. That is the story we haven't seen on TV a million times, although god friggin' knows we've seen women well into their adult years, completely stumped by how to operate birth control.  I was so incredibly appreciative that the show made it clear that Rachel was being extra-turbo nutty because they were using multiple forms of birth control.   We'll see, the other possibility is that her husband will simply say "I'll stay home with him/her, why is this even a question?  You're going to law school" but the reason I hope that isn't the case is I'm so tired of women being mugged by their uterus on shows.  "My life, my plans, whee! In love having fun....AND FUCK....knocked up???"  I'm bone-weary of that stuff. 

We'll see what they do but this show is NOT prone to trope treatment and then Bloom is clearly a feminist and feminism has progressed past "you can do and have it all!" into "you can do and have whatever it is you choose ...." so I hope they show her making a choice that both her friends and her husband support and because it is an era where women are (thankfully) sharing their stories of abortion to de-stigmatize it, I'm assuming that's what we're going to get.  Not a story of an abortion where everyone must weep, wail and cry, but rather someone who avails herself of a legal, safe and expedient abortion, and then pursuing her dreams with minimal hand-wringing.  I know it is a sensitive issue and from what I've already seen, the show is fully prepared to treat it as one without treating that as a tragedy. 

Great episode though.  I am confident Greg will be back and I'm equally glad that the show has figured out how to introduce the "look, none of these people is currently in a place where they ought to be having a serious relationship until they work out their manifold issues."

Josh is the least troubled out of them and he clearly has some weird failure to successfully launch thing going on.   I'm assuming Valencia will enter the picture again, now that Josh has decided to put a stop to his ....whatever we want to call it....incredibly grudging relationship.  

Edited November 7, 2016 by stillshimpy

[FurryFury]

11 hours ago, violetr said:

Paula's already had children. It's completely understandable and admirable thathe she's ready to try something new.

In other news, did anyone else recognize that bridge from the Buffy episode "Once More with Feeling"? 

Oh my god... I did think it looked familiar!

[BooBear]

51 minutes ago, stillshimpy said:

From this I can only conclude that law school is pure, unmitigated hell because she already has two children so it isn't as if she's in untested waters.   She also works with a bunch of lawyers and apparently has a very nimble mind so she already has some exposure to the law.  

Law school is a breeze.  Once you graduate... that is hell.

• Most law schools cost over 100K for three years, and that is just tuition.
• The vast majority of lawyers do not make the moola they tell you they do. For a small firm I am guessing that a long term paralegal like Paula probably makes as much as a first year associate and bills in the same range.
• Assuming that it will take Paula 10 years to pay off her loans... and that she is 46 now she will break even at the tender age of 59.  If she just stayed a paralegal she would have been able to save money. 
• Of course it depends on what you do but if you want to be a nimble mind you should stay a paralegal. As a lawyer you are the one that has to go to court and network.  There is a saying that the A law students graduate to being professors while the C law students are the most successful lawyers.
• If Paula loses her job with Daryl (or if he closes the firm) she will be close to unemployable. Being large and old in law.... not good.  She probably would have to start her own firm and that is not exactly big money or fun.

Even within show being a lawyer was not a good thing for Rebecca. When we saw her she was on drugs and has invented this entire psychosis with Josh as a way to get away from that.   Even within show the moment Rebecca started working for Daryl she ran out of money. Safe to assume she took a major pay cut -- look at her Condo.

I suppose that I don't see it as an either or situation but I do find it odd that Rebecca is so excited for her to go to law school other than being supportive.  I would advise anyone against it right now.

Edited November 7, 2016 by BooBear

[AllAboutMBTV]

My prediction, based on nothing at all (other than decades of TV, plays, books and movies), is that Greg's father's emphysema will kick in, requiring Greg to either move home or at least visit on a semi-regular basis (given Fontana's movie-shooting schedule). I mean, Greg accusingly waved his dad's pack of cigarettes in his dad's face while they were packing up the house. That's Chekhov's gun right there.

[Blakeston]

39 minutes ago, AllAboutMBTV said:

My prediction, based on nothing at all (other than decades of TV, plays, books and movies), is that Greg's father's emphysema will kick in, requiring Greg to either move home or at least visit on a semi-regular basis (given Fontana's movie-shooting schedule). 

Or his father will die, and he'll come back for the funeral.

At this point, if his father doesn't have any major health complications for the rest of the series, it will be one of the greatest trope subversions in TV history.

[AnnaRose]

1 hour ago, BooBear said:

Law school is a breeze.  Once you graduate... that is hell.

• Most law schools cost over 100K for three years, and that is just tuition.
• The vast majority of lawyers do not make the moola they tell you they do. For a small firm I am guessing that a long term paralegal like Paula probably makes as much as a first year associate and bills in the same range.
• Assuming that it will take Paula 10 years to pay off her loans... and that she is 46 now she will break even at the tender age of 59.  If she just stayed a paralegal she would have been able to save money. 
• Of course it depends on what you do but if you want to be a nimble mind you should stay a paralegal. As a lawyer you are the one that has to go to court and network.  There is a saying that the A law students graduate to being professors while the C law students are the most successful lawyers.
• If Paula loses her job with Daryl (or if he closes the firm) she will be close to unemployable. Being large and old in law.... not good.  She probably would have to start her own firm and that is not exactly big money or fun.

Even within show being a lawyer was not a good thing for Rebecca. When we saw her she was on drugs and has invented this entire psychosis with Josh as a way to get away from that.   Even within show the moment Rebecca started working for Daryl she ran out of money. Safe to assume she took a major pay cut -- look at her Condo.

I suppose that I don't see it as an either or situation but I do find it odd that Rebecca is so excited for her to go to law school other than being supportive.  I would advise anyone against it right now.

Thank you for posting this.  Law school at Paula's age would be a ridiculous financial risk, especially considering what she said about barely being able to afford things as they are now.  I hate when TV shows romanticize and promote the idea that extra years of expensive schooling are always such a great choice, no matter the circumstances.  

Full Disclosure: This opinion is from someone who was pushed to get an advanced degree, paid for by student loans that grew (consolidated at the highest possible interest rate) to be an overwhelming burden for twenty years.

[dubbel zout]

Just now, AnnaRose said:

Law school at Paula's age would be a ridiculous financial risk, especially considering what she said about barely being able to afford things as they are now.

While this is undeniable, Paula didn't apply to Stanford or a UC law school. It looks like she applied to the community college version of law school. Given that Darryl will continue to employ her, she doesn't have to go to a top-tier school to ensure a job after she graduates.

Also, this is a TV show—her finances will be as big a problem as the show wants them to be.

[BooBear]

37 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

While this is undeniable, Paula didn't apply to Stanford or a UC law school. It looks like she applied to the community college version of law school. Given that Darryl will continue to employ her, she doesn't have to go to a top-tier school to ensure a job after she graduates.

Also, this is a TV show—her finances will be as big a problem as the show wants them to be.

But in reality there is no such thing as a community college law school. Even the bottom of the barrel are 30K or more per year.  Actually there is a scam blog movement out there with regard to law school. A movement to try to stop people from going to law school and then finding out the truth greedy law school administrators don't want you to know. It is just coming to light now that career information post law school are totally made up.
But even within show Rebecca went insane working for the large firm to get money and then, went broke working for Darryl. She now drives a Hyundai and lives in a small townhouse.  I just can't see how Paula would make that much more money going from experienced paralegal to justify 100K debt.  Plus, what if she doesn't pass the bar? California is a very hard bar.  She would just be in the same position she is now but with 100K of debt. They could fix this if Darryl indicated he got her a scholarship.  

42 minutes ago, AnnaRose said:

I hate when TV shows romanticize and promote the idea that extra years of expensive schooling are always such a great choice, no matter the circumstances.  

THIS!  And again, even when, within show, the practice of law was originally set up as such a soul crushing endeavor the main character literally went crazy.

Edited November 7, 2016 by BooBear

[stillshimpy]

Quote

Law school is a breeze.  Once you graduate... that is hell.

Well, I do actually know scads of lawyers and I think I know what you mean: there are too many lawyers in the world and not enough jobs.  Her job with Daryl is likely secure but you know, life is life and things can happen. 

However, I don't think that financial success or the promise of it is what is spurring Paula on.  She feels adrift, she doesn't have a passion.  She seems to be looking for an interest as much as she is a career.  

As it happens, I wouldn't encourage anyone to go to law school, specifically because the market is just saturated.  Having said that, there are tons of areas of law that people can go into that are very rewarding, even if they aren't lucrative.  One of my best friends is an immigration lawyer, my brother-in-law went through law school but then opted not to practice (a very long story but it wasn't because there was a dearth of jobs, he wanted a solid base in real estate law). 

So I take the point: Lots of lawyers out there.   Popping out a human being and calling that fulfilling, when she already knows that it actually hasn't fulfilled her is not the right answer, though.  

But this hasn't been presented as Paula having a yearning to practice law as much as it is: she wants more in her life.  She feels unfulfilled.  She's already had two kids.  It's not the answer for her. It is for some people but it isn't for her and she knows she wants more in her life.  

So whether law school is the answer, or something else, to help make Paula feel like she is using her brain in ways that satisfy her, she already knows having a baby isn't much better....for her.  That's a super important distinction.  It's not wrong that it would be for other people but for Paula? She's done that research, first hand. 

Edited November 7, 2016 by stillshimpy

[aradia22]

Quote

But even within show Rebecca went insane working for the large firm to get money and then, went broke working for Darryl. She now drives a Hyundai and lives in a small townhouse.  I just can't see how Paula would make that much more money going from experienced paralegal to justify 100K debt.  Plus, what if she doesn't pass the bar? California is a very hard bar.  She would just be in the same position she is now but with 100K of debt. They could fix this if Darryl indicated he got her a scholarship.  

I mean what's her face... Audra Levine? seems to be doing fine. As are all the other lawyers at Whitefeather. And probably the other lawyers at Rebecca's firm. I think the show is about Rebecca's issues, not an indictment on being a lawyer in general. Rebecca was under pressure from her mother's expectations to live the life she couldn't live herself. She wasn't doing what she really wanted to do (I wonder if Rebecca will ever explore that. Musical theatre is probably out given her "real" singing voice but there are other options.) She went broke in West Covina because she spent money like crazy pursuing Josh with no sense of a budget.

[Blakeston]

While I agree that it wouldn't make financial sense for Paula to go to law school, the show doesn't seem to be suggesting that it would.

Paula choosing law school in her situation doesn't feel nearly as "off" to me with the idea that Paula can decide to go to law school, without any indication that she's taken the LSAT anytime recently (if ever), and need one letter of recommendation within a few days - and then, because her boss knows the dean, she can begin almost immediately.

There's also Rebecca making partner at a major New York firm at 26. I know it's just a sitcom, and some viewers don't care about realism at all, but (outside of the dream sequences) this show feels grounded in reality in so many other ways.

Edited November 8, 2016 by Blakeston

[Irlandesa]

8 hours ago, AnnaRose said:

Thank you for posting this.  Law school at Paula's age would be a ridiculous financial risk, especially considering what she said about barely being able to afford things as they are now.  I hate when TV shows romanticize and promote the idea that extra years of expensive schooling are always such a great choice, no matter the circumstances. 

I don't know that the show is romanticizing law school as much as it's romanticizing pursuing a fulfilling career for yourself.  Paula felt like she wanted more out of life.  After some consideration, she decided that was law school.  The show has been open that it's going to be costly.

I'm not a lawyer but I have another professional degree that costs money and people graduate into an oversatured market that doesn't pay well.  I am honest with people who think this is what they want to do.  I was lucky to break into the field.  That said, if it's something they really want to do, I wish them luck and tell them the steps they need to take to increase their chances of success.  While the market is oversaturated, there will be people graduating with this masters who will get hired. They might end up as one of those who manages to make it.

Considering how much Darryl likes Paula, I'm sure she could probably leverage her new skills into a lawyer job with him.  She might have more debt and not make that much more money but even being able to do more complex work might make it worth it to her.  And complex work need not be freeing an innocent man, helping an immigrant get their green card, or winning a class action lawsuit.  Complex work might simply be writing up contracts. She seemed to take pride in the friendship contract she drew up for Rebecca.

Darryl's firm has been said to struggle financially.  He lives in a rather basic apartment.  I don't think this makes the law seem better than it is.

7 hours ago, BooBear said:

But even within show Rebecca went insane working for the large firm to get money and then, went broke working for Darryl. She now drives a Hyundai and lives in a small townhouse.  I just can't see how Paula would make that much more money going from experienced paralegal to justify 100K debt.  Plus, what if she doesn't pass the bar? California is a very hard bar.  She would just be in the same position she is now but with 100K of debt. They could fix this if Darryl indicated he got her a scholarship.  

THIS!  And again, even when, within show, the practice of law was originally set up as such a soul crushing endeavor the main character literally went crazy.

Paula would be more prudent with her money than Rebecca.  As has been said above, Rebecca's issues aren't because of the law.  She has always had them.  The law was just something she does but I don't think she's passionate for it the way she is for her fantasies.  It's the fantasy of West Convina that led her to take the job with Darryl at whatever he could afford to pay her.

[huahaha]

I hope that Paula keeps the baby, gives up on law school (which would take many years), and realizes her true calling as a private investigator/Erin Brockovich type. Why waste investigative chops like hers on writing real estate legal briefs? Seriously, the woman could be a CIA agent with those skills. After several years of thrilling investigations, she can settle down to a Jessica Fletcher-type life, using her writing ability to spin salacious mysteries from her experiences.

[Snarklepuss]

Yes to law being oversaturated and Paula being a little on the older side to benefit from a law degree.  Mr. Snarkle is a lawyer and yes, they often don't make tons of money, I can attest to that.  Plus a good college friend thought he'd go to law school in his 30s and quickly found out that it was way hard to establish himself even at 35, let alone being 46 and a (gasp) woman.  Yep, being a woman still makes a bigger difference especially with regard to age starting out in a new career even today, sad to say.  Over 50 and forget about it.  Not that it can't be done, it's just much harder.

Anyway, if I heard Paula right, she was looking for something to fill a void in her life.  Perhaps the law degree was her attempt to grasp at something but not necessarily the only thing that would serve that purpose and in time she might learn to see the baby as giving her the same thing.  However I do agree with those who pointed out that she's not especially into being a mother.  Who knows, maybe she might find that calling as a result of fate taking a hand in things.  Or she will be like a friend of mine who was in a PhD program in Psychology and working full time at a brokerage firm when she found out she was pregnant.  She didn't give up anything.  She was a maniac and did it all.  Of course a couple of years in she eventually had to realize she wasn't Superwoman and quit work for a while to concentrate on her studies, but she was financially able to do that.  Perhaps Paula will find an ingenious way to have it all.

Somehow I just can't see this show working abortion into the story line.  This is supposed to be a comedy, right?  How can the show feature abortion without it sucking all the humor out of everything?  Sure, there have been some serious issues featured plus there's always the possibility of characters dying which would not be out of the question to imagine, but somehow I find that different, and I'm pro-choice.  Plus I don't see it as being Paula's personality to have an abortion.

Also, I see I'm not the only person that doesn't believe for a minute that Rebecca would let Greg go away and not be tempted to follow him.  So I am sure he will still be on the show one way or another.

Edited November 8, 2016 by Snarklepuss

[dubbel zout]

9 hours ago, Irlandesa said:

Considering how much Darryl likes Paula, I'm sure she could probably leverage her new skills into a lawyer job with him.

Darryl has already said Paula has a job with him.

6 hours ago, Snarklepuss said:

Somehow I just can't see this show working abortion into the story line.  This is supposed to be a comedy, right?  How can the show feature abortion without it sucking all the humor out of everything? 

Why does abortion have to automatically mean doom and gloom? Alcoholism/addiction isn't a laugh riot either, but the show is treating Greg's problem with respect. I don't see why that can't extend to Paula's choice, whatever it is.

[Snarklepuss]

1 hour ago, dubbel zout said:

Darryl has already said Paula has a job with him.

Why does abortion have to automatically mean doom and gloom? Alcoholism/addiction isn't a laugh riot either, but the show is treating Greg's problem with respect. I don't see why that can't extend to Paula's choice, whatever it is.

A person can recover from alcoholism.  The decision to have an abortion is final, plus there's the element of personal responsibility in making that choice, whereas alcoholism is commonly described as a disease.  It's not a happy choice that anyone wants to make and I speak from some experience here.  I can't see the show putting a positive spin on it, and I think this show is ultimately about win-win situations, at least I see it that way.

Also, I don't think it matters if Paula has a job lined up with Darryl, I think she'll still suffer from ageism in many different insidious ways that ultimately would affect her satisfaction and success.  Unfortunately our society works against mature women starting new careers in general.  I didn't say it was impossible, it will just be more difficult.  In the real world, of course, not sure about on this show.

Edited November 8, 2016 by Snarklepuss

[BooBear]

7 hours ago, Snarklepuss said:

Yes to law being oversaturated and Paula being a little on the older side to benefit from a law degree.  Mr. Snarkle is a lawyer and yes, they often don't make tons of money, I can attest to that.  Plus a good college friend thought he'd go to law school in his 30s and quickly found out that it was way hard to establish himself even at 35, let alone being 46 and a (gasp) woman. 

And a larger woman to boot. With the exception of the woman from "the practice" have you ever seen a larger lawyer on tv?  Anyway I don't want to get off on a tangent but I wonder if it will turn out that Paula will decide against it having nothing to do with the baby. Even her "dream" of shoes like Melanie Griffith in Working Girl doesn't seem to make sense. First, she isn't in New York and probably parks right outside the firm.  Second, when working girl was changing shoes she was working as an assistant. Before going 100K into debt I would hope she has done her research.  I also think from a show point of view it is a good thing to have Paula in a different role at the firm than everyone else. Maybe she is being a little like Rebecca here jumping at a fantasy impulsively.

[Snarklepuss]

I just thought of a great show solution to Paula's predicament.  When Darryl and White Josh find out about her pregnancy, they'll offer to raise the child for her, thus achieving a win-win-win situation for all of them.  Or Darryl will offer to raise her salary to accommodate the increased financial burden.

I just don't see Paula choosing abortion over other options at this stage in her life, being middle aged, married, already with a child and with a pretty stable home life.  Besides, the show would have far more plot opportunities if she chooses to continue with the pregnancy than if she were to end it.

[dubbel zout]

49 minutes ago, Snarklepuss said:

I can't see the show putting a positive spin on it, and I think this show is ultimately about win-win situations, at least I see it that way.

If having the abortion is the right choice for her, that's positive, IMO.

[Snarklepuss]

8 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

If having the abortion is the right choice for her, that's positive, IMO.

I think that's arguable.  I liken it to breaking up with a boyfriend, having mixed feelings and doing it because you know it's right for you, but feeling positive about it?  I personally would never feel positive and happy about it even if it were the right thing to do, in either situation, and I can't see Paula feeling that way either.  I don't see Paula having an abortion as an "I am woman, hear me roar" moment.  I think the show will find more upbeat ways of making Paula have that moment.  YMMV.

[dubbel zout]

13 minutes ago, Snarklepuss said:

I liken it to breaking up with a boyfriend, having mixed feelings and doing it because you know it's right for you, but feeling positive about it?

Probably not immediately, but in the long run? Absolutely. However, as you pointed out, my M does V. ;-)

[huahaha]

If the show can do a positive early abortion story line, I will bow down to them. I can't envision it in any way, but they managed "happy" UTI and alcoholism plots, so their imaginations obviously surpass mine.

[rho]

With all this pragmatic talk about law school, Paula doesn't need to go at all. California doesn't require an advanced degree to take the bar. Someone like Paula who is a stellar paralegal/investigator/critical thinker probably has a better grasp on legalities than a third year law student. That said, I think it's about the journey for her. She wants to experience something new (which law definitely is NOT) and maybe she'll find a way to go to school for something else or incorporate new people and experiences in her life. I'm heavily gunning for her to be a PI like someone mentioned above. She'd kick ass!

[stillshimpy]

Quote

I think that's arguable.  I liken it to breaking up with a boyfriend, having mixed feelings and doing it because you know it's right for you, but feeling positive about it?

 

 

But something being positive is not an interchangeable term with something that causes joy, or happiness.  People have positive reactions to doing the stuff they know they need to do.    Judging by all the "I voted" (as did I) stickers today, a lot of people are very positive about voting, while being scared at the same time.  Positivity does not need to exist in a vacuum and for a lot of people abortion is not a hotbed of emotion because some people will view that as a collection of cells that will become a human being and first trimester abortions are often viewed as just that. 

Again it is an individual thing and there isn't a general answer that will fit everyone.   I do think that this show already has a major storyline about someone who is an alcoholic and they had a rousing song that featured lyrics about puking on cats and peeing pants.  

If they go there, they can just have Paula sing a suitably conflicted song, summing up with knowing it's the right thing for her and move on.  I'm sure there will be people who would tune out over that, but probably not enough to make it perilous territory.   Plus, Rachel Bloom is a very progressive person and her politics are well-known (loved her election song).   

I'm prepared to be wrong, it happens all the times and likely it won't even be the last time today but I think Crazy Ex-Girlfriend is exactly the show that is going to go there and sing about it.   Positive actions can come with some emotional regret and aren't always the stuff of giddy joy. 

Edited November 8, 2016 by stillshimpy

[Blakeston]

1 hour ago, Snarklepuss said:

I just don't see Paula choosing abortion over other options at this stage in her life, being middle aged, married, already with a child and with a pretty stable home life. 

Paula was miserable at the thought of having another child. Isn't that enough? It's not as though there aren't plenty of married mothers out there who got pregnant later in life, and chose to terminate their pregnancies.

[possibilities]

Paula and her spouse do not want another child. That has been made clear. Having a baby when you don't want one is not a positive for anyone, even if it's a great thing for those who want it.

I've broken up with people and been relieved about it. I know others who have also done so. If it's not right for you, ending something is a positive decision and can increase your happiness.

Even if Paula was not thinking about law school, the fact that she doesn't want a baby is enough reason to not have one. It's not "law school vs baby" -- if she really wanted both, the story would look very different. We've seen stories like that: someone is trying to get pregnant, while also looking at law schools, trying to line up childcare and figure out how they will afford it, etc. What we saw was: looking at law schools, finding out she was pregnant, bursting into hysterical tears of despair over being pregnant, her husband reassuring her that they'll deal with it. There was no: "honey! guess what! it's positive!!!" or "Congratulations, I'll call my mom and we can start fixing up the nursery and interviewing nannies so you can continue your studies!"

Once they decided to make her pregnant, there was no way to make it all smooth sailing and no conflict. If they wanted a story like that, they would have shown her to be maternally inclined or they would not have given her the pregnancy. I don't know what they are going to do, but if they choose an abortion, I don't think that would be unrealistic or a break with the show's tone. Rebecca's realization that her dad didn't want her was all sad, for instance. And people do recover from an abortion, it's not like every woman who has one never gets over it. Some find it more upsetting than others, but it's a part of life for many, many women, and if TV was more honest, we'd see a lot more of them on shows of all kinds. But it's one of those things that weirdly, even though the majority of the country supports it, there is still a huge taboo on talking about it and I think this show in particular is willing to talk about things that are not usually talked about-- period sex! the gruesome process of "getting ready" for a date! heavy boobs! Women's bodies, sexuality, and aspirations seem to be right up this show's alley, in my view.

Whether Paula should go to law school I think is a separate issue from whether she should  carry the pregnancy. I know someone who went back to school in her 60s and will get her master's degree around age 70. She was already retired, but she did it because she was interested in it, wanted the challenge, and is finding it fulfilling. We haven't seen Paula say she wanted to do something to make more money. We saw her say she wanted to do something that ignited her passion and fulfills her ambitions. It's a lot of debt, unless she can get financial aid somehow, but I don't think the show is portraying her as being unaware of what a lawyer does or how much money they make. If anything, they've made lawyering very unglamorous, and Paula is neck deep in how it works because she's already working in the field.

I actually love the idea of showing the pursuit of education as a passion, rather than as an economic necessity. If she wanted to be an artist, no one would think she was under the illusion it would be lucrative, but pursuing any other activity makes someone a nerd, and people assume it's for the money-- which is not always true.

[stillshimpy]

1 hour ago, possibilities said:

I actually love the idea of showing the pursuit of education as a passion, rather than as an economic necessity. If she wanted to be an artist, no one would think she was under the illusion it would be lucrative, but pursuing any other activity makes someone a nerd, and people assume it's for the money-- which is not always true.

 

Quoted for truth.  That is another aspect of the story I love.  Paula's interested in going to law school for intellectual engagement, as near I can tell.  I'll sum up with uncharacteristic brevity: fucking yay! 

[seacliffsal]

I will be 62 when I receive my doctorate in 2017.  Yes, sometimes it doesn't make sense to others when people decide to get degrees.  There is a lot more motivating these decisions than just earning potential.  I completely understand Paula's decision and am glad that she is making a decision for herself and her sense of accomplishment and fulfillment.

[dubbel zout]

Go, seacliffsal! Awesome!

[paramitch]

The show's really impressing me this season -- I'm so pleased that the stories and characters continue to behave in their warm, kooky yet believable and complex ways. And it's so nice that while Rebecca continues to be blithely oblivious to her own issues, at least Greg really does seem to have embarked on some growth and self-awareness. It's so nice to see him not seething with repressed rage in every scene!

However, I admit it: I still hate the new opening number. Gah. I'm not a huge Busby Berkeley fan anyway, and while this one worked for me in the S2 opener, I think it's far less memorable and cute than last season's. I get that it needed updating for plot reasons but I'll always miss "SHE'S SO BROKEN INSIIIIIIIDE!" as well as that number's bigger introduction to the cast of characters.

One minor note, for awesome PTV recapper Adam, since it's come up several times in this season's recaps: It's not a new thing that Darryl thinks he's Paula's best friend. It came up several times last season as well. He's always assumed that his friendship with Paula is closer than it actually is (bless his heart).

Which actually brings me to something I'd like to see the show address -- I adore Darryl, but I get a little tired of the fact that he's treated so shoddily by Paula, and hope that's addressed at some point. Paula actually refusing his letter of recommendation (and doing so pretty cruelly) really made me angry last episode. I'd honestly like to see Darryl realize that she is not really his friend, and (to parallel Rebecca's realization about Josh) that he deserves better treatment than that.

Meanwhile, while I was frankly completely dismayed at the show's "oh God I've been mugged by my uterus" storyline (tm Stillshimpy), I'm tentatively happy that the show is exploring Paula's predicament with an appropriate amount of emotion and thoughtfulness.

And I definitely don't agree with those who feel that Paula's age means exploring a law degree isn't feasible or worthwhile for her -- she's a woman with plenty of life ahead of her, and I think she should pursue anything that lights her up like the law does. I think it would be far sadder if she didn't, even if she didn't end up changing the world or making partner anywhere, etc.

Last but not least, I'm not the world's biggest Josh fan, but I've never felt so sorry for Josh than I did in the three minutes in which he discovered the prenatal vitamins, Rebecca ambushed him with her terrifyingly manic vision of their perfect dreamy future with a child, got her period, asked him to disregard the previous two minutes, and then wanted to rush right into period-sex. I mean, that poor guy.

Rebecca's driving me nuts again this season, but kudos to Rachel Bloom for being willing to portray her as being so frustratingly obtuse about herself. I definitely trust that the show knows how tone-deaf Rebecca is about her issues, so I figure this is all going to come crashing down on her at some point. I was actually throwing things at my television set in her therapy scene with poor Dr. Akopian! (She really deserves that kayak...)

[AnnaRose]

27 minutes ago, paramitch said:

And I definitely don't agree with those who feel that Paula's age means exploring a law degree isn't feasible or worthwhile for her -- she's a woman with plenty of life ahead of her, and I think she should pursue anything that lights her up like the law does. I think it would be far sadder if she didn't, even if she didn't end up changing the world or making partner anywhere, etc.

I was one of those posters who thought it was a big mistake, because I could have sworn that Paula said they couldn't afford their current life, let alone pay for law school... so I was assuming they would have to get into huge debt to do it... which I thought, especially at her age, would be a financially risky choice.

I watched the episode again though, and Paula actually said they couldn't afford all of their expenses plus a baby, plus law school... so hopefully they'll be able to pay the tuition or Daryl will pay for it.   (Also assuming she will be able to keep working throughout her schooling.) 

I also feel better about her choice after viewing the episode following this one.  It seems she has a lot more potential to be a successful lawyer than I realized.

[smartymarty]

  Quote

I am torn on Paula getting into law school. From my point of view law school and being a lawyer kind of sucks so I want her to realize that having a baby is so much better.

 

 

From this I can only conclude that law school is pure, unmitigated hell because she already has two children so it isn't as if she's in untested waters.   She also works with a bunch of lawyers and apparently has a very nimble mind so she already has some exposure to the law.  Also, sure babies are swell my son is a grown man these days and I'm super fond of him (understatement) but here's very specifically why I hope to all things merciful that is not where this story is going.  I think we are a bit  beyond having a woman realize that their true calling in life is to produce children.   Let her true calling being something other than biological, please show. 

Similarly, I hope that the story doesn't do that "she can have it all! An infant and law school, at once!" because whereas that was an important thing to convey when women were just sort of starting to wonder if they could have very targeted, intensive careers and children.  We've established that can be the case, but the era of "she can bring home the bacon...." and then do every other taxing, tiring thing was actually from a time period when  it was sort of a new concept. 

Paula has an unexpected and unwelcome pregnancy.   Her husband very carefully stepped around the language that would have indicated he envisions painting  a nursery and starting again.  He said they would see and they would deal with it (it was something very like that -- I was very focused on the language NOT containing anything baby related).  

I think it's Paula's husband who is going to broach the subject of abortion and not in the "get rid of it!" type of way just ....show a husband on TV being the person to suggest this, to support his wife throughout, telling her he believes in her and will be with her every step of the way of her abortion, if that's her choice. That is the story we haven't seen on TV a million times, although god friggin' knows we've seen women well into their adult years, completely stumped by how to operate birth control.  I was so incredibly appreciative that the show made it clear that Rachel was being extra-turbo nutty because they were using multiple forms of birth control.   We'll see, the other possibility is that her husband will simply say "I'll stay home with him/her, why is this even a question?  You're going to law school" but the reason I hope that isn't the case is I'm so tired of women being mugged by their uterus on shows.  "My life, my plans, whee! In love having fun....AND FUCK....knocked up???"  I'm bone-weary of that stuff. 

We'll see what they do but this show is NOT prone to trope treatment and then Bloom is clearly a feminist and feminism has progressed past "you can do and have it all!" into "you can do and have whatever it is you choose ...." so I hope they show her making a choice that both her friends and her husband support and because it is an era where women are (thankfully) sharing their stories of abortion to de-stigmatize it, I'm assuming that's what we're going to get.  Not a story of an abortion where everyone must weep, wail and cry, but rather someone who avails herself of a legal, safe and expedient abortion, and then pursuing her dreams with minimal hand-wringing.  I know it is a sensitive issue and from what I've already seen, the show is fully prepared to treat it as one without treating that as a tragedy. 

Great episode though.  I am confident Greg will be back and I'm equally glad that the show has figured out how to introduce the "look, none of these people is currently in a place where they ought to be having a serious relationship until they work out their manifold issues."

Josh is the least troubled out of them and he clearly has some weird failure to successfully launch thing going on.   I'm assuming Valencia will enter the picture again, now that Josh has decided to put a stop to his ....whatever we want to call it....incredibly grudging relationship.  

Thank you. I'm dismayed by those taking the poster saying that babies are better than practicing law as the final word. That's just one person's opinion. So I'll add mine to make it even: I'm a lawyer and love it, and I'm so glad I never had kids. For me, raising children would have been hell.

[smartymarty]

  On 11/7/2016 at 0:22 PM, stillshimpy said:

From this I can only conclude that law school is pure, unmitigated hell because she already has two children so it isn't as if she's in untested waters.   She also works with a bunch of lawyers and apparently has a very nimble mind so she already has some exposure to the law.  

Law school is a breeze.  Once you graduate... that is hell.

• Most law schools cost over 100K for three years, and that is just tuition.
• The vast majority of lawyers do not make the moola they tell you they do. For a small firm I am guessing that a long term paralegal like Paula probably makes as much as a first year associate and bills in the same range.
• Assuming that it will take Paula 10 years to pay off her loans... and that she is 46 now she will break even at the tender age of 59.  If she just stayed a paralegal she would have been able to save money. 
• Of course it depends on what you do but if you want to be a nimble mind you should stay a paralegal. As a lawyer you are the one that has to go to court and network.  There is a saying that the A law students graduate to being professors while the C law students are the most successful lawyers.
• If Paula loses her job with Daryl (or if he closes the firm) she will be close to unemployable. Being large and old in law.... not good.  She probably would have to start her own firm and that is not exactly big money or fun.

Even within show being a lawyer was not a good thing for Rebecca. When we saw her she was on drugs and has invented this entire psychosis with Josh as a way to get away from that.   Even within show the moment Rebecca started working for Daryl she ran out of money. Safe to assume she took a major pay cut -- look at her Condo.

I suppose that I don't see it as an either or situation but I do find it odd that Rebecca is so excited for her to go to law school other than being supportive.  I would advise anyone against it right now.

Ironically, a friend who went to Emory Law School later in life got many scholarships, as the school supported the more experienced students.

[PatternRec]

On 11/5/2016 at 10:10 AM, PodcastTown said:

Did you guys think for a second Josh/Rebecca are over? Come on, you should know the show by now. Not until the last episode or whenever this show is completely over.

I wanna see Rebecca move on from Josh just we can have a season three premier called "Why is Josh's name still in the episode titles?" :D

[Rinaldo]

Except they'll need a different punctuation to end Season 3 episode titles. Like ellipses... Or a colon: Or an interrobang, which I can't even create here.

[PatternRec]

19 hours ago, Rinaldo said:

Except they'll need a different punctuation to end Season 3 episode titles. Like ellipses... Or a colon: Or an interrobang, which I can't even create here.

Episode 3x04 "Why isn't Josh Interrobanging me?"

Edited November 18, 2016 by PatternRec

[kathe5133]

On ‎11‎/‎17‎/‎2016 at 7:47 AM, Rinaldo said:

 an interrobang, which I can't even create here.

Never heard of that, so of course - to Google!  I'm consistently amazed at how much I learn when the perception is I'm "wasting my time" reading PTV!  Love it!

[DianeDobbler]

My .02 after reading this discussion and binge-watching:

I think there's too much exaggeration about the risk Paula might be taking going to law school and becoming a lawyer at her size and age. She's not going to be competing with young dynamo law school grads. She's her own category. I know from a writer friend (and to my surprise) that quite a few people in their fifties and sixties (let alone Paula, who is in her forties) switch careers, get a new degree (and are also able to qualify for grants, scholarships, and other support) and thrive. In the world of the show, we've seen her receive positive feedback from a judge. We know she's a strong legal brief writer, which is not necessarily common in a community where Ivy law degrees are uncommon. 

As far as the world of law extends, I found it extremely unrealistic for Rebecca to be offered a partnership because she was the hardest working young lawyer they'd ever seen. That's not a qualification. A gazillion young, brilliant, Ivy educated 26 year old NY lawyers live and breathe their jobs. There are only 24 hours in a day; unless she works every one of them, I just don't believe Rebecca worked harder than any other lawyer her firm had seen of her age. That aside, it's not a qualification for a partnership, unless somehow as a second year or third year she'd managed to land a lot of business, or established herself as integral to retaining big clients. In a firm like hers, that's unlikely, or they wouldn't be a firm like hers.

Anyway, frankly, I found Paula's story arc more plausible than Rebecca's in terms of her career.

Edited February 19, 2017 by DianeDobbler