S02.E06: Monster

[storyskip]

35 minutes ago, Eneya said:

I am not complaining the story is not following the bible, my response was aimed at another poster saying that Lucifer got his silver tongue from his mother (and then there was a reference towards the snake and the garden). If Lucifer was the serpent and played a role in that bit or not, we do not yet know, because the show hasn't established it. So... O.o?

But the show has made the connection, both in season 1 and season 2.

Season 1 we have the scene after Lucifer has indulged in a threesome, where he picks up and apple and with a sneaky grin says "hello old friend."

Season 2 we have the line "My first club was a sex club, you may have heard of it" implying Eden.

[CheshireCat]

2 hours ago, storyskip said:

But the show has made the connection, both in season 1 and season 2.

Season 1 we have the scene after Lucifer has indulged in a threesome, where he picks up and apple and with a sneaky grin says "hello old friend."

Season 2 we have the line "My first club was a sex club, you may have heard of it" implying Eden.

In the first meeting between Ella and Lucifer, Ella also said that he (the devil) made a woman eat an apple or something along those lines.

[theatremouse]

I did not have a problem with Lucifer showing his real face to Dr. Linda. I do have a problem that they showed it to us. It just looked shitty and sort of...inside-out-skin or whatever. It was much more menacing in the past when we'd see the eye-flash-glow thing and then just cut the person's reaction. I get they were trying to make it "bigger" or whatever in this scene that we saw the face too, but I anticipated it could be nothing but underwhelming and they did nothing to change my mind.

[NJRadioGuy]

I'm glad someone has finally been let in on the Big Secret, but knowing typical network TV, I'm afraid there's going to be a mind wipe or some other Omega-13 reset-to-baseline gimmick employed so the Big Secret can remain hidden. I hope they don't wimp out and go that way but I've just got a feeling they will.

[storyskip]

11 minutes ago, NJRadioGuy said:

I'm glad someone has finally been let in on the Big Secret, but knowing typical network TV, I'm afraid there's going to be a mind wipe or some other Omega-13 reset-to-baseline gimmick employed so the Big Secret can remain hidden. I hope they don't wimp out and go that way but I've just got a feeling they will.

The question I'd have "Is this a Big Secret"?

Lucifer has never tried to hide who and what he is.  Amenadiel lied, yes but Lucifer has never bothered.  He's said he's the devil, he talks about "Dad" all the time, he talks about humans as if they are another species (which to him they are).  He picks people up with one hand, he throws people through glass walls with barely a touch, he survives gunshot wounds.

Outside of camouflaging the parts of himself that would directly hurt humanity, his divinity and until now his devil face, he's never tried to keep anything a Secret.

It's been the people around him who keep explaining all this off.  Now, Dr. Linda can no longer explain it off as "oh it's just his coping metaphor".  She yelled at him to stop lying to her and stop wasting her time and he never has.  He just finally showed her irrefutable evidence that she could no longer lie to herself.

Even Amenadiel didn't erase any memories.  He did lie to Chloe but it can be easily argued that Chloe wants to be lied to.  Maybe not consciously but how else can we explain everything she has seen and the fact that she doesn't believe or continue to question any of it.  Amenadiel gave her a nice lie, full of implausible holes but she was like "Yeah, yeah of course" because that's what she wants to see.

[NJRadioGuy]

I think Luci expected what the doc's reaction would be but out of exasperation he let go and maybe broke her brain in the process. Show Canon is that mortals seeing divinity is a Very Bad Thing, thus my feeling that they might push the big red reset button. Like I said, I sure hope they don't. To me this show is all about the human/divine dynamics, screw the Case Of The Week. I'd be good if they handed out a few jay walking and speeding tickets until the Christmas break but get Chloe and the doc fully in on things and up to speed in the battle of Upstairs/Downstairs.

Also, what happened to Lucifer's actually punishing the evildoers as he did early on in the series? Now he's just there to reveal the murderers and Chloe gets the collar. It's far more interesting when the bad guys get to pay a truly deserved penalty for murder or whatnot.

[CheshireCat]

42 minutes ago, storyskip said:

The question I'd have "Is this a Big Secret"?

Big secret maybe not since it wasn't kept secret, big reveal, definitely, at least, to Dr Linda because she never believes Lucifer and didn't see this coming.

 

Quote

Even Amenadiel didn't erase any memories.  He did lie to Chloe but it can be easily argued that Chloe wants to be lied to.  Maybe not consciously but how else can we explain everything she has seen and the fact that she doesn't believe or continue to question any of it.  Amenadiel gave her a nice lie, full of implausible holes but she was like "Yeah, yeah of course" because that's what she wants to see.

Well, Chloe said she didn't believe Amenadiel's story, but I agree, she's in denial. I think after her conversation with Ella, she realized that she doesn't really want to know and that that is why she hasn't dug further into it. Chloe struck me as non-religious and while I think a religious person might already struggle with proof, it's an even bigger thing for a non-religious person. I don't think Chloe is anywhere near ready to accept the truth and pushing is aside is the easiest for her at the moment.

34 minutes ago, NJRadioGuy said:

Also, what happened to Lucifer's actually punishing the evildoers as he did early on in the series? Now he's just there to reveal the murderers and Chloe gets the collar. It's far more interesting when the bad guys get to pay a truly deserved penalty for murder or whatnot.

Agreed! I think they should keep showing his desire to punish people/get justice, especially after Lucifer discovered that he likes to punish people.

[izabella]

1 hour ago, theatremouse said:

I did not have a problem with Lucifer showing his real face to Dr. Linda. I do have a problem that they showed it to us. It just looked shitty and sort of...inside-out-skin or whatever. It was much more menacing in the past when we'd see the eye-flash-glow thing and then just cut the person's reaction. I get they were trying to make it "bigger" or whatever in this scene that we saw the face too, but I anticipated it could be nothing but underwhelming and they did nothing to change my mind.

I think he deliberately downplayed what he revealed to Dr. Linda.  He didn't do any eye flashing or grimacing, just sat there quietly.  It served the purpose of not appearing menacing to her while still revealing himself, but I can see how that also makes him less dramatically menacing to us, too.

[vavera4ka]

oh how i loved this episode! The shades, the juxtapositions, it made me laugh, it made me emotional... Tom Ellis is so good! Just give this man an Emmy!

I had to remind myself to breathe during the end scene. It was so powerfully done. And I'm glad they went for a more "metaphor" vie of the Devil. His eyes and flashing scary face was driving people insane. Maybe it was his "mean face", kinda like when parents use "the voice" lol he wouldn't want Dr. Linda to go crazy, He just wanted her to see and believe.

 

It's so rare that 2nd season compares to a really good 1st one, but so far this is on a whole new level for me! I'm so glad it got extended to a full 2nd season. Now we need news on the 3rd!

Edited November 3, 2016 by vavera4ka

[Notwisconsin]

A word on theology: "Mom" seems to be taken from Mormonism. There is a "Mrs. God." in Mormonism, and the "celestial city" is on the planet Kolob. Just saying....

[sinkwriter]

Quote

I think he deliberately downplayed what he revealed to Dr. Linda.  He didn't do any eye flashing or grimacing, just sat there quietly.  It served the purpose of not appearing menacing to her while still revealing himself, but I can see how that also makes him less dramatically menacing to us, too.

I wonder if he has a few faces. One that he uses to strike terror into evildoers' hearts and minds (like he did with the record producer in the pilot, driving the guy raving mad), and then one that he showed Linda which is more his true face, but possibly ruined because of falling from grace.

I like what izabella said about how he didn't push the anger and flashing red eyes like he usually does; instead, he sat calmly, not trying to scare her, just wanting to show her the truth, with the tiniest, relieved smile on his face as if he was hoping she'd see him and accept him (like Trixie did with Maze). My heart broke for him a little bit in that moment. 

I really hope that Dr. Linda hasn't totally lost her mind. Though I suppose seeing her unravel might be an interesting storyline for her character. Still, she's always been such a comforting voice of reason (and a funny character too), so I hope we haven't lost her. I'm really curious to see where they go next with this.

[Jlina]

Quote

A word on theology: "Mom" seems to be taken from Mormonism.

I think several posters established the show isn't following our reality's Bible; but in general in theology the Holy Spirit, or Sophia is considered Female - and God is basically genderless. So both a Mom and Dad don't directly contradict Christianity, imo.  It's probably more of a personification of supernaturals into human thing for the plot to have them both dueling for power.

[NutMeg]

One post I read yesterday (sorry, didn't check who it was from :(...) very correctly stated that Lucifer has never lied, and that got me thinking about how Amenadiel has been lying left and right since he got to Earth, whereas Lucifer indeed always speaks the truth, though no one believes him. So basically, Lucifer has so far lived a much more authentic life than Amenadiel, and this lack of authenticity that Amenadiel went for right away might be what has cost him his powers.

I also like the posts (sorry again I cannot quote exactly) about the ways "Dad" may have revealed himself. I think so far, despite his caginess, I like "Dad" much better than some of his offsprings who take it upon themselves to do bad deeds under the false belief that he'll be pleased with the result. No idea why they think that will work (Hey Dad, you probably didn't notice, but brother was being disrespectful to you, so I took care of it/him, now can I finally be your favorite son? Well, things never work that way, do they?). I still think Lucifer is the favorite son of both his father and his mother.

Now, about "Mom", I like that she's suddenly becoming more interesting, after having paid her dues by seemingly accepting her shitty new situation (from her point of view). I'm really curious to see where her machiavellian mind will take us.      

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

Who Runs Lucifer's World? Girls

A pivotal episode in the series shows how much the Prince of Darkness relies on the women in his life to guide him and comfort him -- and what the fallout is when he ignored one and let himself be manipulated by another.

[Amerilla]

I though Tom knocked it out of the emotional park in the final scenes of the previous episode, but he doubled down in this one. 

For me, it wasn't so much a matter of Lucifer's physical appearance, but giving her that glimpse of his true self, his true nature. I agree with Izabella that he prudently didn't give her the full Lucifer. (As we saw in the interrogation scene just in this episode, he can reduce grown men to teary puddles of cowering goo without noticeably changing form.) But even that little glimpse overwhelmed her. Rachel did a great job of communicating Linda's fear, shock, wonder, horror, all without sound and with barely any movement. Like Lucifer's almost child-like look when he reverted to his human face, you could read any number of things into it, all of them just incredibly sad.    

On a teeny-tiny note, everything about Maze and Trixie was perfect, but most perfect of all were the little hair-horns on Maze. The hair and makeup department really earned their keep on those. 

[Mojeaux]

9 hours ago, NutMeg said:

his offsprings who take it upon themselves to do bad deeds under the false belief that he'll be pleased with the result.

Humans have been doing this since the birth of religion.

On 11/1/2016 at 7:24 AM, storyskip said:

I don't think any of what I'm about to write is a spoiler from the comics. 

In the source material this is based off of the Archangels Michael and Samael are first and second born.  Michael first to create matter and Samael to mold it.  So the hierarchy is, Yahweh wanted creation so he created his firstborn Michael to create matter and his second born Samael to mold that matter to his will and bring the light of life into it.

So basically Michael and Samael did the heavy lifting. ;)

Samael could not mold that which was not created, so he was not a "Creator" he had to have that from his elder brother Michael.  But Samael was created deliberately WILLFUL in order to be powerful enough to bend and mold creation.  Thus you get the argument that Yahweh knew exactly what he was "creating" when he "birthed" the willful Samael.  

We haven't seen it mentioned since "Favorite Son" but "Lucifer" is technically his title.  Lucifer means "Lightbringer" which is Samael's title.  As he said when he left the Silver City, he renounced his 'name' and took on his title.

It's confusing that the showrunners have taken the Michael character and rolled him into "Amenadiel" (who is another character entirely) but there is no doubt in my mind on the show Amenadiel = Michael.

As for Dad, I haven't seen anyone else mention it yet so I'll circle back to it.  It is my OPINION (no fact here!) that we saw Dad all over this episode.  I don't think they will ever cast "Dad" as a character the way "Mom" was cast.  Instead, we saw Dad working through other people.  Think about it:

1)  When Lucifer ran into the one bar fly and spilled her drink.  He is disoriented at the time, obviously lost to his thoughts and goes "I'm sorry, so sorry" and Ellis's delivery is perfect because it's that combination of apology for the moment (spilled drink) and also an expression of the mantra he's probably been repeating to himself since he killed Uriel.   The bar fly, rather than being upset, gently and clearly tells him "It's okay, it wasn't your fault."

Given how subtle these show runners are, I don't believe they paid an extra for a line (hey that shit costs money!) and crafted that scene with the "stop look" way they did to catch the audience's attention, just for fun.  I fully believe that was "Dad" trying to send a message to Lucifer.  Think about it offset to the way "Mom" is manipulating Amenadiel, trying to gather and focus his anger and grief into a weapon she can use (AKA evil) vs "Dad" with unconditional forgiveness.  The juxtoposition being, Lucifer didn't "hear" his father because he wasn't listening/Dad wasn't right there in front of him and Amenadiel is "listening" too closely to "Mom" because she's right there in front of him.

2) The shooter.   All those missed shots.  Now granted the guy explains that he was just trying to scare Lucifer away so he could get to his intended target but he also says that he wasn't going to hurt Lucifer because it wasn't his fault.  It's not quite as clear cut as the bar scene but to me the message popped out in the conversation, that like when "Dad" put Father Frank in Lucifer's path, "Dad" intervened again.

ALSO it's a very little detail and hey, maybe it was just a blooper moment and they didn't have time/money to re-shoot but it struck me as interesting that when Chloe rolled up on the shooter, the guy went to swing his weapon towards her and his gun barrel got caught in the scaffolding.

There is a definitely editing in "tink/thunk" sound of the gun getting caught up and you see the shooter go from "fight" to "surrender" when it happens.

Like I said, maybe just a blooper but ... idk.  Dad interfering again, keeping Chloe safe?

This is spot on and bears quotation in its entirety. I hope that's okay.

[HouseofBeck]

On 11/1/2016 at 2:59 AM, AlliMo said:

Charlotte flaunting her sex appeal in front of her sons doesn't really bother me. Lucifer and Amenadiel are uncomfortable with it because they've been on earth for awhile now; Charlotte is basically still adjusting to the newness of having an actual body, much less with abiding by human social conventions.

Tom Ellis is marvelous at conveying Lucifer's pain and confusion. The look of resigned desolation on his face as he walked out of Dr. Linda's office just killed me.

The above and all the subsequent quotes (at which I had to finally stop lest I quote the whole thread): Giant yes to how Tom Ellis keeps revealing more and more depth. 

I absolutely loved Maze's exhalation of relief that Trixie thought her "costume" was cool. I wonder if Maze herself has examined how odd it is that she likes this kid in the first place, and to the point where she possibly craves that acceptance in return. It's super cool to see this develop, and thank you, show, for not messing it up.

The Lucifer-reveal scene--the music, the tone, the way the light was mistily flickering in--all gorgeous. I was a little "meh" about the devil-face he chose to put on, and am telling myself that it of course had a greater impact on poor Dr. Linda with all she had to realize in that instant, plus the fact that he COULD just change like that with no way for her to explain it away as a trick. 

I've always thought, though, that when they make (or he can do it naturally, I don't know) Tom Ellis's eyes go all darker and opaque and he puts on that menace, that that is far more scary than stupid glowy red eyes or a red face. I say this as someone who has not read the comics at all. But it hearkens back to the way I felt back with Stargate SG-1, where Daniel's in the Ascended Diner and the kindly, ordinary, smiley older man turns out to be Anubis, and he keeps smiling, except everything as we know it just changed utterly. I just feel more delicious frissons when evil as we know it is an ordinary person looking ordinary, no fangs, no capes, no prancing around a cauldron. 

And Luci having allowed himself to take that risk and feel hope that his therapist would understand...the heartbreak there, oh yes. 

Damn, I love this show. 

On 11/1/2016 at 11:31 AM, emma675 said:

I adored the Maze/Trixie trick or treating scenes and I loved the relief and joy that Maze had when Trixie accepted her "real" face. It was such a stark contrast to Lucifer and Dr. Linda. I'm wondering if Dr. Linda's reaction was a combo of shock at what had just happened and the dawning realization that she has literally been sleeping with the devil? I can't wait to see what comes of it and their relationship. Plus, Amenadiel is gonna be PISSED that a human now knows the devil is real (and so are angels).

 

On 11/1/2016 at 5:17 PM, seveneightnine said:

Love the idea of this! Love the idea that the showrunners are subtle and delicate with their brush. Such a rarity these days.

Such a great episode over all.  The Trick or Treating, the costumes, the Tom Ellis angst. Also, loved the music as well. I kept hearing the line "He tried to please them all, this bitter man he is" as Luci was playing the piano.

 

On 11/2/2016 at 6:22 PM, theatremouse said:

I did not have a problem with Lucifer showing his real face to Dr. Linda. I do have a problem that they showed it to us. It just looked shitty and sort of...inside-out-skin or whatever. It was much more menacing in the past when we'd see the eye-flash-glow thing and then just cut the person's reaction. I get they were trying to make it "bigger" or whatever in this scene that we saw the face too, but I anticipated it could be nothing but underwhelming and they did nothing to change my mind.

 

On 11/2/2016 at 7:57 PM, izabella said:

I think he deliberately downplayed what he revealed to Dr. Linda.  He didn't do any eye flashing or grimacing, just sat there quietly.  It served the purpose of not appearing menacing to her while still revealing himself, but I can see how that also makes him less dramatically menacing to us, too.

 

On 11/2/2016 at 9:30 PM, vavera4ka said:

oh how i loved this episode! The shades, the juxtapositions, it made me laugh, it made me emotional... Tom Ellis is so good! Just give this man an Emmy!

I had to remind myself to breathe during the end scene. It was so powerfully done. And I'm glad they went for a more "metaphor" vie of the Devil. His eyes and flashing scary face was driving people insane. Maybe it was his "mean face", kinda like when parents use "the voice" lol he wouldn't want Dr. Linda to go crazy, He just wanted her to see and believe.

 

It's so rare that 2nd season compares to a really good 1st one, but so far this is on a whole new level for me! I'm so glad it got extended to a full 2nd season. Now we need news on the 3rd!

[Eneya]

On 11/2/2016 at 11:06 PM, CheshireCat said:

In the first meeting between Ella and Lucifer, Ella also said that he (the devil) made a woman eat an apple or something along those lines.

I interpret is as a wink to the audience. In universe it was A who showed around with the goat legs even though nowhere in the Bible it is mentioned anything about goat legs or Lucifer looking anything but angelic, not to mention that it is unclear that what kind of a fruit (if it was even a fruit... imagine it being an asparagus or something. :)) Anywho, ok, maybe it is with that reading but then it contradicts that long rant from season 1 that he never, ever did anything to humankind and it was all on their own. If he is involved in the fall but still has the nerve for that speech, it will be... somewhat disappointing, let's say. :)

Anyway, I am interested where it will go.

[Lonesome Rhodes]

There is no saving Dr. Linda as a "normal" character.  She has been shown to be especially intelligent and smart.  The reveal necessarily ends all contact with Luci and Amenediel, except out of sheer terror on her part that if she refuses, they will do her great harm.  That will never work on this show.  

The professional Linda realizes that she has, indeed, been dealing with a MASS MURDERER!  Worse, he is a Supreme Being.  On any whim, he can bring untold horrors upon her.  With his demonstrated level of narcissism and admitted ill deeds already wrought?   She is completely, and utterly, screwed.

Her regular life?  Gone.  She has a professional obligation to report Luci as a clear and present danger.  If she were to do that, she would be put in the loony bin herself.  "Really?  He's the Devil incarnate?"  Goodbye license to practice.

Forget theologies.  We've seen that Luci and his sibs are basically shapeshifters, with situationally varying levels of power.  The cheerleader in Heroes could relate.  They don't need a human shell.  Neither does Maze.   Mum did/does.  Why?  She birthed the boys!  Maze's powers are more versatile?  She isn't even related!

In terms of "Dad's" powers, it is now canon that Dad could have Chloe, or anyone else,  killed anytime he pleases.  He may not be the God we know, but he sure as can be is more powerful than the supreme being whatevers the boys are.  There was a crucial line in the Mum/Amenediel conversation where it is posited as justification that they do not have to do his bidding, Dad can't see everything that happens on earth.  So far, there is no evidence this is fact.  We do have some that Dad is everywhere.  Luci even beseeches (prays to???) him, without seeing him.  Not even a cell phone connection!   He may not be the God of Abraham, but he most certainly outrageously powerful - the greatest power known to any character in this show.

For me, the core message of this ep is the eternal and insatiable selfishness of Luci.  In that moment with Linda, he had a huge choice.  Knowing what the revelation would do to her as a mortal, he was more interested in being "understood."  He destroyed her anyway. That is our Luci.

His "protecting" Chloe?  It's all about him.  She is the most interesting thing he has in the entire universe.  He also gets to meet up with more humans worthy of punishment through her career choice.  Basically, she serves him.

He is tremendously entertaining.  I watch the show to see him toy with fools and miscreants as a cat with a mouse.  So much wit and panache!    

But, there is no escaping where the show has now gone.  

Edited November 6, 2016 by Lonesome Rhodes

[theatremouse]

10 hours ago, Lonesome Rhodes said:

The professional Linda realizes that she has, indeed, been dealing with a MASS MURDERER!

Who other than Uriel has the show established him to have murdered? Seems to me they put a pretty big emphasis on that having been the first time he murdered someone. He tortured people after they died. He didn't kill them. Also, just being pedantic here but I'm pretty sure "mass murderer" implies killed a bunch of people in one location at the same time. Multiple people in multiple places in a short span of time is a spree killer. Different individual murders on different occasions in different locations would be a serial killer. 

Edited November 6, 2016 by theatremouse

[NutMeg]

Quote

Who other than Uriel has the show established him to have murdered?

None, indeed. Thank you theatre mouse for this reminder

[Mabinogia]

On ‎11‎/‎1‎/‎2016 at 9:11 PM, CheshireCat said:

Slightly related, what bothered me was that after the first shot came, Chloe just stood there and stared. The shot had to come from above her, and since two sides could be ruled out (behind Lucifer and the entrance), I don't know why she didn't call for officers to head upstairs and clear the two sides the shots could come from.

I originally thought that Luci was somehow fending off the bullets, giving Chloe a chance to find him. She was just slow on figuring that out. But sounds like not. At least she finally figured out that from all the shooting she could figure out where the shooter was and stop him.

I can't wait to see where Dr. Linda knowing the truth goes next. I refuse to believe we will lose her character, so she will probably take Luci back as a client...knowing he is the devil. Those therapy sessions will be epic. Also, how will it affect her friendships with Amen (she will likely figure out he actually is an angel) and Maze (whom she will likely realize is a demon at some point). I'm just happy it will give her something meatier to do. I love Rachael Harris.

Maze, her hesitation when showing Trixie her face then little smile when Trixie thought it was cool. I love Maze! I like how they have dealt with her becoming more human-like, it wasn't something she wanted to do, but she basically said "well, I'm stuck here, I'm gonna have to find a way to make it not totally suck" and started to make an effort. I just hope she doesn't loose too much of her demon side.

Tom Ellis is absolutely stunning. I love him when he's being charming, I love him when he's funny, I love him when he's melancholy and man is he hot when he's angry. I think I'm becoming a devil worshiper because of him. lol

[Lonesome Rhodes]

4 hours ago, theatremouse said:

Who other than Uriel has the show established him to have murdered? 

He blithely told her he had killed many (over a long time) on at least one occasion.  He did insist they had it coming and, if memory serves, it is not something he did as routine.  But, sometimes that was the only option left him.  In his eyes, it wasn't murder and it isn't wrong.  In our legal system, the term for premeditated killing is "murder."  She, of course, dismissed it as metaphor.   Just another fanciful story.

[gwhh]

I wonder how long the doctor sit there in shock before she come out of it?  My bet a really long time. 

 

What till she founds out maze is the head Demon of hell!!

[CheshireCat]

4 hours ago, Lonesome Rhodes said:

He blithely told her he had killed many (over a long time) on at least one occasion.  He did insist they had it coming and, if memory serves, it is not something he did as routine.  But, sometimes that was the only option left him.  In his eyes, it wasn't murder and it isn't wrong.  In our legal system, the term for premeditated killing is "murder."  She, of course, dismissed it as metaphor.   Just another fanciful story.

Uh? When did Lucifer say that he killed many? What he did in this very episode is tell Dr Linda that he's never killed anyone before.

[Lonesome Rhodes]

19 minutes ago, CheshireCat said:

Uh? When did Lucifer say that he killed many? What he did in this very episode is tell Dr Linda that he's never killed anyone before.

No offense to anyone in here.  I'm not going to rewatch each episode to be able to cite with precision.  I posted in good faith to the best of my memory.  If I am wrong, so be it.  He has made many admissions as to his evil past to several main characters.  He, of course, sees those actions as fully justified.  Therefore, never evil.  YMMV.

I do not include the killing of Uriel as a murder.  That is a very open question.  Elements of legitimate defense of innocents are there.

What is nearly incontrovertible is that he revealed himself to be, literally, a monster.  Superhuman.  Extra-Human.  Powerful. Satan.   When he summons and uses his power, he expressly refuses to use Dad.  He did attempt a bargain in re Chloe.  The argument to be made is the good or evil nature of Dad, or if there even is such a thing as "good" or "evil."

Cheers.

[CoyoteBlue]

Ugh, the whole point of Lucifer is generally that he is an angel still. Beautiful, and I'm sure his divinity would knock the dear doctor for a loop (remember what his wings did to mortals? And they weren't even attached!), but this ugly Hollywood demon burn-victim thing is BS. 

[ItCouldBeWorse]

21 hours ago, theatremouse said:

On 11/6/2016 at 2:23 AM, Lonesome Rhodes said:

The professional Linda realizes that she has, indeed, been dealing with a MASS MURDERER!

Who other than Uriel has the show established him to have murdered? Seems to me they put a pretty big emphasis on that having been the first time he murdered someone. He tortured people after they died. He didn't kill them. Also, just being pedantic here but I'm pretty sure "mass murderer" implies killed a bunch of people in one location at the same time. Multiple people in multiple places in a short span of time is a spree killer. Different individual murders on different occasions in different locations would be a serial killer. 

Since he was acting in self-defense, or to protect Maze, he didn't murder anyone.  He killed Uriel, but he didn't murder him.

[rainsmom]

13 hours ago, CoyoteBlue said:

Ugh, the whole point of Lucifer is generally that he is an angel still. Beautiful, and I'm sure his divinity would knock the dear doctor for a loop (remember what his wings did to mortals? And they weren't even attached!), but this ugly Hollywood demon burn-victim thing is BS. 

I thought the same thing. They really shouldn't have shown it, because I would expect that his true face would be something we couldn't comprehend anyway. I hope they somehow explain that he showed her something she would understand rather than something real.

All that said, I'm not going to stress over it. I'm much more interested in the story than the special effects.

[Mabinogia]

I'm going with him showing her what he thinks he should look like. He's pretty down on himself at that point, thinks he's a monster, so he shows her himself as a monster. I do, however, wish they hadn't shown us. We would have figured out what happened from her reaction. Showing the audience cheapened it, IMO. I though he looked kind of badly CGI'd which really took me out of what was otherwise a very powerful scene.

[jhlipton]

On 11/1/2016 at 5:35 AM, dwmarch said:

As much as she might like to be the President of Mars I think Trixie might end up being a dominatrix when she grows up.

No reason she can't be both.  And the way Trixie handled the flail was on point (as the kids say).

On 11/1/2016 at 8:24 AM, storyskip said:

It is my OPINION (no fact here!) that we saw Dad all over this episode.  I don't think they will ever cast "Dad" as a character the way "Mom" was cast.  Instead, we saw Dad working through other people. 

On 11/1/2016 at 4:41 PM, Yokosmom said:

Thanks to everyone who pointed out Dad's possible help/thoughts that were scattered through the episode.  The great shaft of sunlight by the tree/Urial's grave was possibly another one.

For me, the light through the tree was the biggest "I'm here, Amen!!!!" moment, although I like STORYSKIP's moments too

On 11/1/2016 at 3:29 PM, gwhh said:

Is maze clothes  made just for her?   Or is there a store that sells those types of outfits in the greater LA area?  

About 15.  On Hollywood Blvd.  In the block next to the Pantages Theater.  (Seriously, there are quite a few BDSM shops in LA, and some have extensive stock.)

On 11/1/2016 at 9:11 PM, CheshireCat said:

 I don't know why she didn't call for officers to head upstairs and clear the two sides the shots could come from.

Same reason they couldn't call HQ and have security alerted and several squad cars get there first.  On every cop show, the hero(es) must be the firt to arrive regardless of how little sense it makes.

On 11/2/2016 at 8:42 PM, CheshireCat said:

I think they should keep showing his desire to punish people/get justice, especially after Lucifer discovered that he likes to punish people.

Lucifer thought about punishing the shooter but stopped -- either because there were too many witnesses or because the guy was already punishing himself, or both.

 

From the recap:

Quote

 

"You never do what you have to do, Lucifer! You only do what you want to." -- Dan

And there goes Detective Douche, saying exactly the wrong thing, right in front of the person Lucifer killed his brother to protect. Oh, Dan. You are going to end this series sitting in a lake of fire if you're lucky.

 

Thing is -- until Uriel , Dan was right.

Edited November 8, 2016 by jhlipton
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[wilnil]

On ‎11‎/‎7‎/‎2016 at 7:19 PM, Mabinogia said:

I'm going with him showing her what he thinks he should look like. He's pretty down on himself at that point, thinks he's a monster, so he shows her himself as a monster. I do, however, wish they hadn't shown us. We would have figured out what happened from her reaction. Showing the audience cheapened it, IMO. I though he looked kind of badly CGI'd which really took me out of what was otherwise a very powerful scene.

My thought was related but a bit different -- I thought it was his "game face"; i.e., the one he wears to confront and terrify a damned soul, like he did to John Pankow's character (Jimmy?) in the pilot, just leaving out the demonic rage he'd have shown to the damned.