S06.E06: Dark Waters

[iMonrey]

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You do have to wonder about a father naming his new son after his other son. I've never heard of anyone doing that when they've lost a child

Weirdly, that used to be a very common thing, back when infant mortality rates were so high. (Or is it, when they were low? In either case, when kids tended to die in infancy.) My own grandmother was given the same first name as an older sister who had died before she was born. 

[kili]

Quote

That makes it sound like he didn't know what really happened. So how did he find out who killed his father?

This is something Regina would have known, but she was not there to tell Liam in the submarine. Must have been Magic. Maybe he went to an Oracle? Maybe another crewperson was reading tarot cards and figured it out just has Hook was supposed to leave? Maybe Pan, who also knows everything, whisked Young Liam to the World Where Time Moves Fast and told him that Killian Jones killed his dad. Then, Nemo, on a visit in the World Where Time Moves Fast, picked up now older Liam and made him first mate. Then, the trundled over to the EF to pick up another Revenge victim and happened upon Hook. Liam didn't hear his full name until just before Hook tried to leave.

Meanwhile, Nemo specializes in helping people not to find revenge? Maybe his little harpoon should have had him having chats with Hyde and Edmund while he was in the land of Untold Stories.

[Amerilla]

5 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

Weirdly, that used to be a very common thing, back when infant mortality rates were so high. (Or is it, when they were low? In either case, when kids tended to die in infancy.)

High is correct. It gets more common the further back in history you go.

[Shanna Marie]

7 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

Weirdly, that used to be a very common thing, back when infant mortality rates were so high.

Interesting. I guess I was going by my friends who've lost children, and they would have felt they were erasing the ones they lost if they named a later child after the lost one, like that was a replacement. But that's today, when losing an infant is really rare.

But I still feel like it's creepy when the child he lost was lost because he sold him into slavery. Then it really is a case of just replacing him, like selling him in the first place was no big deal because he could always get another one. That's a conversation I'd love to see Hook having with 2.0, talking about what happened to them as children. Not that I necessarily want 2.0 to stick around and become a regular, but a main character's brother -- his only living family member when he's been on his own for so long -- seems like too big a deal to resolve and then be forgotten in one episode.

[Daisy]

4 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

That, at least, is somewhat consistent with classic Regina when she was the Evil Queen. Snow was out making friends, falling in love, and building whatever life she could under her circumstances, while Regina was killing people, even her allies, and sabotaging anything that might bring her happiness because it might get in the way of her revenge, and yet Regina was all "I can't be happy while Snow is happy, why is my life so miserable and Snow's life so happy? It's so unfair!"

That was part of what was so annoying about Henry's Brat Attack. Emma not being the Savior shouldn't change anything about her relationship with Henry. Yeah, he went looking for her because she was the Savior who could break the curse, but the fact that she was his mother while he was living with an adoptive mother he knew was the Evil Queen and who didn't really love him (yeah, they've retconned that, but in season one, it was like she was incapable of really loving him, and Emma's superpower even told her Regina was lying about loving him) was also a factor. He wanted a mom who could love him. If she wasn't the Savior anymore, she'd still love him. And, oh yeah, she'd still be alive.

Has Emma actually done anything all that Savior-y that would cause everyone to die and Storybrooke to be destroyed if she were just Emma and not the Savior? There was the TLK in season one, but what since then? Her magic added to Regina's did stop the failsafe in 2B. In Neverland, it was a team effort, and her main contributions were magically lighting a candle and being able to relate enough to the Lost Boys that they helped them. In 3B, Regina was the one shooting light magic all over the place. In 4A, it was Anna and Belle saving the day. In 4B, it was Regina and Henry who ended the AU. I guess maybe the Savior status allowed Emma to take on the Darkness, but that was never made clear. Hook saved the day in 5A, then contributed to the resolution of 5B, with Zelena killing Hades. Hook saved himself from the Underworld. Henry brought the magic back. So, other than a couple of minor magic tricks and possibly the Darkness, what has Emma done that couldn't have been done if she were just Emma rather than being the Savior? Being the Savior just seems to make her feel obligated. It's never been critical.

Well that's the thing - and maybe why this stupid thing is pissing me off with Aladdin + Jasmine. 

Emma was the "saviour" in the sense she was going to save everyone from the curse lock. Basically, come back in 28 years, free everyone and poof. Saved. Why the hell they made this into this big like she's... superwoman or something. that was never the intent. But they always, and constantly want her to do things that she's "supposed" to do...
Which is why I wish Emma's reaction was to cut the "saviour" Ties. 

like just be. - sorry. i don't want to be savior, so suck on that one for awhile. but the fact that people make her so damned guilty about it just makes me mad. 

[Arnella]

During the vomit inducing scene of EQ snogging Rumple with Belle walking up to the window, I was groaning at the cliche of it all but then, nothing (??).  Without Belle walking in, it may not be cliche but it doesn't make any sense either. 

I know RC is off filming a movie so this was previously filmed so Rumple can still appear anyway but can't really interact in the story line so they just wrote this quick scene that only involved one other cast member as a kind of place holder and added the icky kiss to try and make it seem significant; then some 2nd unit stuff of Belle to fluff it up.

[Amerilla]

No,  RC finished filming Trainspotting 2 this summer.  This is just the show's normal, ham-fisted plotting and writing. 

[Camera One]

I think this was the first episode this season where we actually got some well written character conversations for a few select main characters.  I thought most of the dialogue they had for Emma in previous episodes were poor, including the otherwise enjoyable Cinderella episode.  The two conversations where she talked about the shears were well written and acted (not so much the pep talk to Aladdin).  Once again, Hook is one of the only characters allowed to show full regret and make amends completely (this part was really nothing new), so he got to have some good moments with Henry despite the contrived setup and Henry getting the wise and sage morally superior forgiver role yet again.  I don't think we really got to see Henry's POV on this since it was more from Hook's perspective.

Edited November 1, 2016 by Camera One

[Mathius]

5 hours ago, KAOS Agent said:

Liam's story makes very little sense. He said, "When I was a child, my family was taken from me. I grew up next to the docks, fending for myself, desperate to make the people who took them pay." Who is this them to which he refers? It was his father. That's it. Also, how did he manage to grow up next to the docks fending for himself when Hook went to Wonderland immediately following his father's death? He took Cora back to the Enchanted Forest, Regina talked to her "dead" mother and then ran off and cast the curse seemingly that same day. So he grew up on the docks for a day at most before being found by Nemo and taken out of the curse zone.

I thought Regina went to cast her first attempt at the curse (the one with the horse's heart), which mean there would have been a few more days for Liam to fend for himself along the docks. 

[Shanna Marie]

1 hour ago, Arnella said:

During the vomit inducing scene of EQ snogging Rumple with Belle walking up to the window, I was groaning at the cliche of it all but then, nothing (??).  Without Belle walking in, it may not be cliche but it doesn't make any sense either. 

Really, the cliche would have been her seeing them, but it's a misunderstanding because she didn't see what she thought she saw, and she runs off in a flounce without waiting for the perfectly reasonable explanation. But in this case, it would have been what she thought she saw -- yeah, Evil Queen was the aggressor and he didn't initiate it, but he's powerful enough that if he wanted to shove her off, he could have. So instead we get yet another case of Belle being kept in the dark about what Rumple's up to and making major life decisions about her relationship with him without knowing the truth.

36 minutes ago, Camera One said:

Once again, Hook is one of the only characters allowed to show full regret and make amends completely (this part was really nothing new), so he got to have some good moments with Henry despite the contrived setup and Henry getting the wise and sage morally superior forgiver role yet again.

I hate to complain about a character conversation, but this one was kind of weird. For one, it was so out of the blue. It might have worked better if we'd actually seen all those offscreen moments we've been told about (then again, if we'd seen Henry and Hook talking about the house, and all, Henry's opposition to Hook's presence would have looked even weirder). The other thing is something we've been talking about on the All Seasons thread about this season in general, the lack of urgency. Henry and Hook had been kidnapped, and they were being held prisoner by someone who wanted to kill Hook, but they were just hanging out here, sitting on a sofa and chatting. Then after they'd had that nice chat, Hook decides to send Henry to safety. There was no urgency, no sense of being in danger, no ticking clock. No one else knew they were in danger, but that wasn't played as them being on their own with no help coming. The present-day part of the plot was Henry and Hook being kidnapped and taken on board the Nautilus, where they argue at first, then Hook tells Henry the story of Liam 2.0, and then Hook sends Henry to safety (during which time they're never under any threat, and it's easy for Henry to escape and come back). Finally, 2.0 shows up to kill Hook, Henry comes back and surprises him, so Hook's able to overpower him. That's it. Couldn't they have had the same chat while at least seeming to be in danger or under threat? At the very least, they could have talked while they were tied up and trying to get out of their bonds.

[Camera One]

9 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

The other thing is something we've been talking about on the All Seasons thread about this season in general, the lack of urgency. Henry and Hook had been kidnapped, and they were being held prisoner by someone who wanted to kill Hook, but they were just hanging out here, sitting on a sofa and chatting. Then after they'd had that nice chat, Hook decides to send Henry to safety. There was no urgency, no sense of being in danger, no ticking clock. No one else knew they were in danger, but that wasn't played as them being on their own with no help coming. 

You've reminded me I was thinking about that when I watched the episode, especially when Henry declared pessimistically and dramatically that he'll probably end up as fish food at the bottom of the ocean.  Huh?  Did we miss a few scenes where their lives were threatened?  When Hook and Henry were locked in that room, there was no tension.  Then, they got the scuba gear super easily.  

Part of the reason for the lack of urgency was because the Writers wanted to delay revealing that the "Captain" was not who we expected it to be.  That was the major twist of this episode and they were trying to milk it.

Edited November 1, 2016 by Camera One

[Curio]

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You've reminded me I was thinking about that when I watched the episode, especially when Henry declared pessimistically and dramatically that he'll probably end up as fish food at the bottom of the ocean. Huh? Did we miss a few scenes where their lives were threatened? When Hook and Henry were locked in that room, there was no tension.

 

 Did Henry know the shears could pick locks the entire time? Why was he sulking and doing nothing when he knew he had the tool to escape? It seems pretty bratty to complain about dying and then not even bothering to help find a way out. Why would the shears even work on a lock? What else can those shears do? They can apparently cut away a Savior's saviorness, they can separate a pregnant woman from her baby, and they can pick locks. Maybe the shears can help me cut ties with the logical part of my brain so that I don't overthink when I watch this show.

Quote

like just be. - sorry. i don't want to be savior, so suck on that one for awhile. but the fact that people make her so damned guilty about it just makes me mad. 

 

I don't think the writers realize their miscalculation with paralleling Aladdin with Emma. Because the moral they seem to be telling with Aladdin is that even though he cut away his Savior status, he still has the inner strength to be a good person and help Jasmine restore Agrabah. (Also, why is Jasmine so desperate to have Aladdin save the day? Why can't she try saving the day herself?) That directly contradicts the heroes' stupid plan to throw away the shears because Emma has to stay a Savior, and cutting away her Savior status isn't an option because that's the only thing that makes her "special." And what's worse, Emma was the one giving Aladdin the pep talk in this episode to step up and help save Agrabah. So clearly Emma knows a former Savior can still save people, and in fact, she's encouraging him to do that. So why can't she follow her own advice? Didn't we literally just have an episode about that with Cinderella? Henry was encouraging a weakened Emma in that episode and he saw how she was able to save the day even without most of her magic, and then he turns around and yells at Hook for considering taking away her Savior status, even though that Cinderella episode proves she doesn't really need the Savior status to still save people. Is Henry hung up on the fact that she'd lose light magic? But she never had light magic in Season 1 when their bond was the closest.

This is why the writers avoided any meaningful conversation between Hook and Emma about the shears—he's the one character on the show who doesn't care about Emma being the Savior and would be the first to encourage Emma that being normal Emma Swan is just as useful as being a Savior with light magic. They did the same thing with Hook avoiding any conversations with Regina in Season 4 because the writers knew he's the one character who would call Regina out for being wrong about the Author because he's a walking example of a villain-turned-hero who didn't need any assistance from an Author to change. OUAT Writing Trick 101: If there's a character with common sense and contradicts the main message you're trying to sell, never let them have a conversation.

Oh, and great job at being Sheriff, Emma. You find Aladdin breaking into a car and stealing money, but you don't do anything about it. If that was Will, he'd be locked up in jail for two days.

Edited November 1, 2016 by Curio

[Shanna Marie]

12 hours ago, Camera One said:

You've reminded me I was thinking about that when I watched the episode, especially when Henry declared pessimistically and dramatically that he'll probably end up as fish food at the bottom of the ocean.  Huh?  Did we miss a few scenes where their lives were threatened?  When Hook and Henry were locked in that room, there was no tension.  Then, they got the scuba gear super easily.  

This would have been so easy to fix (well, aside from the things that would take going back two seasons to really fix). All they had to do was have the crew members taking them prisoner be a little more hostile. Hook tries to put up a fight but gets knocked around a bit, resulting in the photogenic trickle of blood on his face to give us a visual to the threat. They get tied up/chained up, but in a way that they can see each other rather than the usual back-to-back, since for these conversations they really should see each other's faces. The crew warns them that the captain will be back to deal with them soon. Then the exact same conversations ensue, but with Hook struggling to free himself the whole time. At the end of the conversation, Hook gets himself free and unties Henry, and then they use the shears to get out of that room. But instead of the reason Henry has to go alone so that he can see Hook sacrificing himself for Henry or a member of his family (again, some more, because Henry apparently didn't notice the other times when Hook actually got run through with a sword right in front of him) being that there's only one diving helmet (on a submarine? really?), the crew shows up and catches them before they can escape, so Hook fights them, buying time for Henry to get away, maybe telling a protesting Henry to go get help, even though he knows there's no way Henry can get help to him in time, since he knows Liam will kill him.

There, was that so hard? That adds urgency, tension, and action instead of having the characters literally sitting on a sofa and having a chat.

[Mathius]

2 hours ago, Curio said:

Oh, and great job at being Sheriff, Emma. You find Aladdin breaking into a car and stealing money, but you don't do anything about it. If that was Will, he'd be locked up in jail for two days.

With that accent, he practically is Will! :P

And once again we have Aladdin stealing for no reason other than he's a klepto, apparently.  He's not stealing food, he's not stealing to survive, he's just stealing because that's who he is apparently.  Jafar was right, he's not a thief with a heart of gold, he's a thief with a heart that desires gold!

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

Once Upon A Time Seeks Its Destiny 20,000 Leagues Under The Sea

Spoiler alert: Henry doesn't drown. Unfortunately.

[YaddaYadda]

26 minutes ago, Mathius said:

With that accent, he practically is Will! :P

And once again we have Aladdin stealing for no reason other than he's a klepto, apparently.  He's not stealing food, he's not stealing to survive, he's just stealing because that's who he is apparently.  Jafar was right, he's not a thief with a heart of gold, he's a thief with a heart that desires gold!

I thought he was going to steal the Miata (leave the Miata 2K16 alone!) and try to leave town because Jasmine is a pain. I thought it would have been one of those really neat parallels where he's doing what Emma tried to do because even though he's not a Savior anymore, he still feels pressure. But nope, let's steal the wallet.

Also, Jasmine? Not an endearing character. She's annoying. Why try to convince Aladdin to go back to Agrabah and save it if Agrabah has vanished. Maybe it came along with the curse? Hopefully the bumbling Sultan was buried in a dune of sand. 

[Daisy]

I know. i forgot to touch on that

Aladdin is pissing me off. He stole to survive (ie: eat, and take care of Abu). and when others needed more than him, he gave his bounty. he didn't steal because he could steal. like wtf. show. and it's this, + Belle, which makes me SO happy that Ariel was only on the show like 3 times, and was amazingly awesome, and then left. because I would have cut this show off had they ruined Ariel for me. 

Maybe Agrabah needs to appear because of Aladdin? who knows. 

[KingOfHearts]

Aladdin has been living in Storybrooke this whole time, and just now Emma is catching him for breaking into cars? Why would a thief go for an expensive car on main street in broad daylight, anyway?

[Rumsy4]

Both Jasmine and Aladdin seem selfish and self-centered. Maybe they do deserve each other, after all. I doubt this is the reaction A&E were going for. :-p

[Curio]

It's almost impressive that they've managed to make Jasmine and Aladdin this boring. You'd think they'd be the biggest draw of this season, yet I practically fall asleep during their scenes. Even Belle is more entertaining than those two right now. I like Jasmine's actress, but yeah, the character comes across as incompetent and pushy.

[Rumsy4]

I'm disappointed that Belle's only story this season is angsting over Rumple's role in her baby's life. She's not even doing random research for Team Hero. What was the point of her bringing over the sonogram picture, if she did not see her husband and the EQ making out? If it was meant to be a poignant moment of Rumple straying while Belle was softening towards him, I didn't feel that way.

I'm not convinced Rumple is into the EQ, and while EQ seems to lust after Rumple for some reason, there's nothing deeper there. She wasn't even trying to play mind games by wanting Belle to walk-in just as she was kissing Rumple. So, why that unnecessary juxtaposition?

[Curio]

3 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

I'm not convinced Rumple is into the EQ, and while EQ seems to lust after Rumple for some reason, there's nothing deeper there. She wasn't even trying to play mind games by wanting Belle to walk-in just as she was kissing Rumple. So, why that unnecessary juxtaposition?

 

I know people would have cried out "cliché" had Belle walked in on them, but it's almost worse that they went with her not seeing them. Where's the drama in that? It's like their decision to not have Emma hear Hook's voice message. There are tropes for a reason, and Belle really needed to see that huge moment. Do we honestly expect Rumple to confess to Belle that he kissed the Evil Queen? Rumple shouldn't get away with yet another secret that hurts Belle. 

[iMonrey]

Does anybody understand exactly what Rumple wants with the Magical Scissors of Doom? I know we've speculated at length just exactly how they're supposed to work on Emma, but now they can apparently do just about anything? They're supposed to "cut" Emma's fate as the savior, I guess, but what would they "cut" from Belle that would - I don't know - make her love Rumple again?

[Daisy]

Y'all know if Belle saw it - she'd be like "Rumple I still love you ignore everything i said,."
 

[Mathius]

1 hour ago, Rumsy4 said:

Both Jasmine and Aladdin seem selfish and self-centered. Maybe they do deserve each other, after all. I doubt this is the reaction A&E were going for. :-p

I dunno, Aladdin DID point out in 6x05 "I may be a selfish Street Rat, but you're a selfish princess!" 

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They're supposed to "cut" Emma's fate as the savior, I guess, but what would they "cut" from Belle that would - I don't know - make her love Rumple again?

It somehow cuts you off from the fate you are currently on track to.  Since Belle and their son decided they want nothing to do with Rumple, their fate is to go on living separately from him.  Rumple can't have that, and wants to cut them off so that he can have them both, consequences be damned.

Edited November 1, 2016 by Mathius

[KingOfHearts]

Just now, Mathius said:

I dunno, Aladdin DID point out in 6x05 "I may be a selfish Street Rat, but you're a selfish princess!" 

Not exactly Princess Bride material, is it?

[Shanna Marie]

10 minutes ago, Mathius said:

 Since Belle and their son decided they want nothing to do with Rumple, their fate is to go on living separately from him.  Rumple can't have that, and wants to cut them off so that he can have them both, consequences be damned.

But is that fate or is that a choice? That's what's unclear. Is Rumple taking Damien's appearance in the dream as Morpheus as a prophecy that Damien is fated to become Morpheus or is fated to hate him? It seemed more like "I know what you've done to my mom, so I hate you." I really don't understand what Rumple hopes to accomplish here, and it seems like it's yet another one of his ways to remove Belle's free will.

43 minutes ago, Curio said:

There are tropes for a reason, and Belle really needed to see that huge moment. Do we honestly expect Rumple to confess to Belle that he kissed the Evil Queen? Rumple shouldn't get away with yet another secret that hurts Belle. 

Like I said before, the trope usually involves one person seeing a situation that isn't what they think it is, and they jump to a conclusion and run off without listening to the explanation (see just about every bad romantic comedy ever). In this case, what she would have seen was exactly what it looked like, and is information she needs to know in making any decisions about her future. On this show, her not knowing is even more of a trope, since it fits the pattern of her getting together with Rumple without knowing that he was hiding the evidence that her father was looking for her and destroying her posters looking for her father, marrying Rumple without knowing that he gave her a fake dagger and was using her as an alibi, standing by him while not knowing that he was plotting behind her back to let the rest of the town be killed, and getting back with him (and getting pregnant) without knowing that he was the Dark One again. Now she'll probably get back together with him without knowing that he's carrying on with the Evil Queen.

A lot of Jasmine's speeches sound way too much like what Princess Isabella would have said on Galavant, but on that show those speeches were meant to be spoofs of shows like this, while here we're supposed to take them seriously. I can't wait for the scene in which she talks about the family heirloom jewel she never takes off and keeps insisting on that while everyone around her is saying they don't remember seeing it before. So far, we've seen no indication that she cares anything for Aladdin other than as a Savior. I don't see what kind of difference Aladdin was supposed to be able to make for a city that was buried by the desert. And Aladdin is coming across as a real jerk with the stealing. He's not a street rat here, and maybe Storybrooke needs a real police force -- like, say, there's a sheriff for handling the save the world stuff and a police chief who handles actual crime.

[Curio]

3 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

And Aladdin is coming across as a real jerk with the stealing. He's not a street rat here, and maybe Storybrooke needs a real police force -- like, say, there's a sheriff for handling the save the world stuff and a police chief who handles actual crime.

 

I think David is supposed to be that person, but he was too busy dealing with an injured Nemo to deal with Aladdin. Why haven't they hired Hook to be deputy, yet? Does he even have a job? Why isn't this something the writers addressed two seasons ago?

[Shanna Marie]

9 minutes ago, Curio said:

I think David is supposed to be that person, but he was too busy dealing with an injured Nemo to deal with Aladdin.

If they had someone doing that job, then Aladdin would have been in jail ages ago. They wouldn't have had to go looking for him. He'd have been that guy in the jail, or at the very least with an ankle monitor.

Aladdin worked best when he was clearly a teenager alone in a world without any social services, who stole food to survive and shared it with other street kids. As a 20-something adult in modern America who's stealing wallets, he's a lot less sympathetic.

[Curio]

1 minute ago, Shanna Marie said:

As a 20-something adult in modern America who's stealing wallets, he's a lot less sympathetic.

 

In the writers' quest to parallel Aladdin and Emma as Saviors, they've actually gone and done a closer parallel between Aladdin and Neal. Two 20-something slackers in modern America who steal wallets and watches and constantly avoid confronting the women they supposedly love out of fear, even though they know those women are on dangerous missions trying to save their kingdoms.

[Rumsy4]

Wow. He does sound a lot like Neal. Neal even started out saving people like the Darlings before he turned into a shiftless drifter and thief. At least Aladdin didn't get Jasmine pregnant when she was 16/17.

[orza]

Emma was also a slacker who gave away her child and continued robbing convenience stores, doing break-ins and stealing cars until she was in her late 20s.

[Mathius]

52 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

But is that fate or is that a choice? That's what's unclear.

I think it's supposed to be both - the choices you make determine your fate.

Quote

Emma was also a slacker who gave away her child and continued robbing convenience stores, doing break-ins and stealing cars until she was in her late 20s.

Weren't all her crimes committed following giving up Henry done in the service of finding out who/where her parents were?

That's far more sympathetic a motivation for stealing than "just because".

Edited November 1, 2016 by Mathius

[Curio]

12 minutes ago, orza said:

Emma was also a slacker who gave away her child and continued robbing convenience stores, doing break-ins and stealing cars until she was in her late 20s.

Aladdin never gave away a child or had to give birth to a child in jail, though. The main comparison I was making is that both Neal and Aladdin seem to be very similar personality types, right down to their loungey clothes, laid back slacker attitudes, and the extreme lengths they'd go to avoid the women they love because they're afraid to face them after all these years. Neal went to great lengths to avoid seeing Emma again because he was afraid of how she'd react to him (but mostly because of Rumple), and Aladdin went to great lengths to fake his death and plant that piece of jewelry in the crypt to avoid seeing Jasmine again. Emma, on the other hand, lived several years in Florida with the hope of running into Neal again, and Jasmine was involved with the search to find Aladdin using the tracking spell. 

[YaddaYadda]

The whole Jasmine/Aladdin has been a massive letdown. There's really nothing appealing about it.

[Souris]

On 10/30/2016 at 9:11 PM, Jul 68 said:

I brought this over from the Spoiler thread to congratulate Souris for his/her predictions. ???

LOL. It didn't take a lot of prescience! But thank you!

Edited November 1, 2016 by Souris

[RulerofallIsurvey]

I just watched the episode - and haven't read the comments, so apologies for any redundancy.  

I did wonder what show I was watching there for few minutes.  I mean, a real happy ending for Nemo and Liam2?  What's going on here?  Nice continuity on Liam2, btw.  Aladdin is growing on me.  I do have to wonder what Rumple has up his sleeve: I thought the prospect was much more interesting before he got the "Shears of Destiny".  (That's a new name for them, right?).  Too bad Belle didn't see him kissing EQ.  I also liked Belle a lot this episode.  Henry was just about to get on my last nerve, but he pulled it out at the end.  Good for him.  I still think he should go off to boarding school though.  

[RulerofallIsurvey]

On 10/30/2016 at 9:02 PM, Worsel said:

Dear show writers:  please do not give me any more kissing scenes between EQ and Rumple.  I’d rather eat the grapefruit and boiled mackerel.

Damn it!  My "Like" button only seems to be working once!

[Camera One]

Missing scenes from "Dark Waters":

AT THE HOSPITAL:

BELLE: What are you doing here?  Isn't it a school day?

SNOW: I don't want to be Teacher Snow anymore.  I want to be Hospital Volunteer Snow.

AT THE STORYBROOKE SIGN:

ALADDIN: You ran away from being Savior too?  

EMMA: Yes.  On the very same day I was told I was a Savior.

ALADDIN: Well, actually I didn't run the day I found out.  I went and saved Jasmine and the Sultan from Jafar.  I only quit way way way later, and my actions led an entire kingdom to be obliterated.

EMMA: Okay yeah, our situations are nothing alike.

ON THE NAUTILUS:

HOOK: Are you sure you know how to use those shears?

HENRY: Do I look like an incompetent fool?  Oh oops, I think I just cut away my Author powers.

[Rumsy4]

1 minute ago, Camera One said:

HENRY: Do I look like an incompetent fool?  Oh oops, I think I just cut away my Author powers.

Awww, man! I wish...

[scenicbyway]

I really enjoyed the Hook & Henry adventure and didn't mind Nemo and Liam 2.0.

It seemed like Emma literally had nothing to do in the episode and I can't figure out the point of Jasmine and Alladin.  They might as well be called Guinevere and Arthur, who also had no purpose on the show.

EQ and Gold?  WTF 

I will say I think Emma's response to Hook's secret was totally in character and I'm so glad they don't have drama between them, they just talk it out.

Henry will no doubt continue to be annoying because he's a teenager.

[Shanna Marie]

2 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Henry was just about to get on my last nerve, but he pulled it out at the end.  Good for him.  I still think he should go off to boarding school though.

Hook may end up being the first stepparent in the history of entertainment who isn't seen as a villain for suggesting that his new significant other's spawn go off to military school.

2 hours ago, Camera One said:

BELLE: What are you doing here?  Isn't it a school day?

SNOW: I don't want to be Teacher Snow anymore.  I want to be Hospital Volunteer Snow.

That just shows you how scattershot the writing on this show is. They devote an entire freaking episode to a character discovering her true calling, only to entirely drop it in the very next episode. We haven't seen Snow go near a school since then, and now she's spending the day at the hospital.

7 hours ago, Mathius said:

I think it's supposed to be both - the choices you make determine your fate.

But if it's fate, is it a choice? Freewill (choice) and fate are kind of mutually exclusive, at least in the sense that they seem to be talking about it. Your outcome is determined by the choices you make along the way, but "fate" or "destiny" seem to be something externally imposed. Either way, it looks like Rumple is trying to remove Belle's free will, keeping her from being able to make a choice, or else he's trying to remove the free will of baby Damien, so he's not allowed to grow up hating Rumple. That doesn't really seem like a destiny, though.

[KAOS Agent]

Maybe Rumpel sees the whole Morpheus dream thing where Damien hates him as destiny, so he's trying to cut the strings of that fate? My guess is that Rumpel uses the shears and now the baby is going to be super evil because reasons.

45 minutes ago, scenicbyway said:

It seemed like Emma literally had nothing to do in the episode

I thought this for her in several episodes this season. Emma's mostly been relegated to worrying about her secret/dying and hasn't had much to do outside of that. It's made her story really boring. They need her to be more proactive in doing something about the vision and instead she's wandering around giving pep talks to Aladdin.

[Shanna Marie]

11 minutes ago, KAOS Agent said:

Emma's mostly been relegated to worrying about her secret/dying and hasn't had much to do outside of that. It's made her story really boring.

And it makes her story make no sense because if she's not really doing anything, then how is it going to send everything straight to hell if she's not the Savior? She used her magic to save Cinderella's life, and she used her bailbondsperson skills to track Cinderella. Otherwise, it was Hook who killed Jekyll and Hyde, Regina who tracked Aladdin (and in that case, there wasn't a present-day antagonist), and Hook who turned Liam away from his vengeance path (Hook has had a talent in his centrics for turning villains/potential villains around). So, what is Emma doing that's so important that she has to hang onto a Savior identity that may doom her? For this story line to work, we need to see her Saviorness being utterly essential over and over again.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

19 minutes ago, KAOS Agent said:

Emma's mostly been relegated to worrying about her secret/dying and hasn't had much to do outside of that. It's made her story really boring.

Well, now people - she had a whole Dark Swan arc to herself, donchaknow?  What else could you possibly want?  In the mean time, the Evil Queen was practically relegated to the backburner.  ::gasp!::  Quelle Horreur!  ;)

[AudienceofOne]

Everything is better with more Hook, even this... thing... I just watched.

 

But it's about time Henry's well-established animosity toward Hook was given an airing. Except for that not being a thing. Like, at all. I always liked what little I saw of their relationship so I found its sudden emergence annoying.

[Curio]

Quote

And it makes her story make no sense because if she's not really doing anything, then how is it going to send everything straight to hell if she's not the Savior? She used her magic to save Cinderella's life, and she used her bailbondsperson skills to track Cinderella. Otherwise, it was Hook who killed Jekyll and Hyde, Regina who tracked Aladdin (and in that case, there wasn't a present-day antagonist), and Hook who turned Liam away from his vengeance path (Hook has had a talent in his centrics for turning villains/potential villains around). So, what is Emma doing that's so important that she has to hang onto a Savior identity that may doom her? For this story line to work, we need to see her Saviorness being utterly essential over and over again.

 

Exactly. So we have the combination of Emma not really being that essential to saving the day every episode, Hook motivating her to use her bailbondspersonwoman skills to save Ashley, and she's also been motivating Aladdin to save Agrabah without his Savior status. Do they not realize how faulty that makes their entire Savior/shears plot? It's almost as bad as the heroes actively choosing to ignore Hook and Ursula in 4B when they kept going on and on about villains not having happy endings. We clearly have examples in Season 6 already that show how Emma doesn't need to be a Savior to save the day, yet they keep insisting that being a Savior is the only option and that they'll find a third way.

Well here's your obvious third way, guys: Cut Emma's Savior status and allow her to save the day as normal Emma Swan. The show needs to do a better job explaining what exactly happens when Emma cuts away the status. Does she lose her magic? Does she lose her motivation to want to help people? It really drags Emma's character down if the only reason she likes helping people and is "special" is because of some random title that was hoisted on her.

Oh, and why doesn't Jasmine ask Emma to help her save Agrabah? Emma is the new Savior now, so isn't that what Jasmine was looking for? Why hasn't she gone to Emma for help, someone who'd actually be willing to help save the day and has much more experience with it than Aladdin?

Quote

Hook may end up being the first stepparent in the history of entertainment who isn't seen as a villain for suggesting that his new significant other's spawn go off to military school.

 

Honestly, Henry would probably have more fun at the Enchanted Forest Military School that Killian went to than he would in Storybrooke's education system where the teachers can randomly take breaks whenever they want because they feel like doing archery or delivering flowers. Henry is desperate to be a hero, right? He wants to be seen as this big important person who can swoop in and save the day and impress Violet? Well, no better way than to join the Misthaven Royal Navy! Being the son of Princess Emma, he'd probably get in on a full scholarship. Hey, maybe Henry would finally make some guy friends his age, too.

Edited November 2, 2016 by Curio

[PixiePaws1]

I  thought the shears cut the thread to the person's fate, not neccesarily the magic.....the 3rd of the Three Fates used the shears to cut the thread when it was that person's time to die. 

Whatever manifestation the show uses to represent Emma's Fate or Rumbaby's (depending on whose is actually getting the chop!) The Oracle  (we all guessed was Jafar but i suspect they changed that because so many guessed it) said whatever path Emma took, she would always end up dead on that day. Chances are they'll think they managed to dodge it...maybe another aspect of the wish...but still Emma gets killed. I wondered if she was getting split a la Hyde; but it could be kind of cool if we ended up with an AU existing in parallel with this one and they merge resulting in 2 of more than just Emma. 

[darkestboy]

One of the better Hook episodes thankfully. Liked the stuff with Captain Nemo and the other Liam as well.

Henry was somewhat annoying in this episode, even if I got why he was mad at Hook though.

Evil Queen being hot for Rumple is cringeworthy and she's done little to rattle Regina and the rest of the gang.

Zelena was not needed in this episode and they need to do more with Aladdin/Jasmine though.

Liked the Snow and Belle scene, even if there wasn't too much to it, 7/10

[Delphi]

Honestly,  these writers get my applause solely for the fact that Nemo and Liam didn't wind up dead at the end of this episode .   Hand to God,  first time I've been "shocked" by one of their "twists" in a long time.  

The cgi wasn't terrible.   Good Hook episode.

Other than the scene at Gold's shop where I wanted to gouge my eyes out, (Thanks for the warning or it would have been much worse!) I don't have many complaints.