This Is Our Social & Cultural Issues Thread

[NutMeg]

When my company expatriated me to Hong Kong, I had a lot (or so it seemed to me) of forms to fill up, and one did ask if I ever had a mental illness and, second question, if I was ever hospitalised for such, and for how long, reasons, etc. I never had, so answered nil, nil nil, but I remember thinking what about people who had a serious nervous breakdown? Would they be rejected? Or is it just an info that is requested with the info looked at as a case by case basis. I mean depression and schizophrenia can both get you to check yourself in, but they say very different things about you and your mental well being.

Later, I moved to Singapore. There, you're required to do a physical that tests 1) tuberculosis, 2) HIV. So any of these would disqualify you for residing here. I seem to recall mental illness in one of the forms, but my memory may be hazy.    

[femmefan1946]

Later, I moved to Singapore. There, you're required to do a physical that tests 1) tuberculosis, 2) HIV. So any of these would disqualify you for residing here.

To be fair, those could also restrict you from entering Canada as a landed immigrant.

Both are chronic illnesses with expensive controls/cures, and our universal health care system doesn't need the extra burden.

While I'm not sure about tuberculosis, a friend's husband has been HIV positive and is allowed to visit Canada for very long periods of time. He goes back to San Francisco several times a year for extended visits to keep up his California health coverage.  They've been married for about 15 years and he was positive before that.

I just googled, and apparently as long as a tuberculosis patient is not actually hospitalized, they are eligible for settlement in Canada as refugees. Important because we accepted 30,000 Syrian refugees last year and probably will do the same this year. And both refugees and immigrants are covered by medicare.

[chocolatine]

17 minutes ago, femmefan1946 said:

Later, I moved to Singapore. There, you're required to do a physical that tests 1) tuberculosis, 2) HIV. So any of these would disqualify you for residing here.

To be fair, those could also restrict you from entering Canada as a landed immigrant.

You have to test negative for TB to get US permanent residency as well. I was going through the green card application process two years ago, and since my skin test turned out a (false) positive, I had to do both a chest x-ray and a blood test to prove that I don't have TB (those were a fun couple of weeks waiting for the appointments/results).

[methodwriter85]

I guess fostering an older kid is probably more realistic. Hey, it worked for David and Michael on Six Feet Under.

[ChromaKelly]

On 9/28/2017 at 2:38 AM, methodwriter85 said:

I guess fostering an older kid is probably more realistic. Hey, it worked for David and Michael on Six Feet Under.

I found that storyline more realistic, as they didn't have any children. Randall and Beth fostering a child older than their girls is such a no-no. It's almost always advised to foster/adopt in birth order. I'm really not looking forward to this storyline. I know it's going to be all "she just needs love!" 
I also winced at Randall's blank slate comment regarding adopting a newborn. He as an adoptee should know that's not true. 

[PRgal]

On 10/6/2017 at 1:25 PM, ChromaKelly said:

 
I also winced at Randall's blank slate comment regarding adopting a newborn. He as an adoptee should know that's not true. 

I don't know if he would, necessarily.  Adoption and the availability of infants in 1980 and the availability of infants in 2017 = NOT THE SAME.  PRguy and I were waiting to adopt for the longest time (now trying surrogacy) and older parents who adopted - people with kids our age - all told us it was "easy."  Yeah, easy, back in the late 70s-early 80s.  Not now.  

[Katy M]

1 hour ago, PRgal said:

I don't know if he would, necessarily.  Adoption and the availability of infants in 1980 and the availability of infants in 2017 = NOT THE SAME.  PRguy and I were waiting to adopt for the longest time (now trying surrogacy) and older parents who adopted - people with kids our age - all told us it was "easy."  Yeah, easy, back in the late 70s-early 80s.  Not now.  

I'm sorry you weren't able to adopt.  But, some of the unavailability of infants to adopt is actually due to good things.  Less teen pregnancy due to more and better birth control and education about it.  Parents more willing to support their teens keeping kids that they actually want.  Forcing them to keep kids they don't want and allowing unfit mothers to keep their kids is obviously bad. 

[PRgal]

1 minute ago, Katy M said:

I'm sorry you weren't able to adopt.  But, some of the unavailability of infants to adopt is actually due to good things.  Less teen pregnancy due to more and better birth control and education about it.  Parents more willing to support their teens keeping kids that they actually want.  Forcing them to keep kids they don't want and allowing unfit mothers to keep their kids is obviously bad. 

That, and the fact that we are an interfaith, inter-ethnic couple.  I think Children's Aid is well-aware that East Asian families tend to be a little...racist. And since many more children in care are black (in proportion to the general population), they know that placing a child with us can lead to hostility.  There are A LOT more people like Rebecca's mom in my community (even if we ourselves and our immediate family are not that way) and they are NOT AFRAID to be blunt.  Let's put it this way:  If the Pearsons were Chinese, then Kate would have A LOT more body image issues.  Even my mom, who is very well-integrated, will make comments.  And the HK Chinese idea of "fat" is A LOT smaller than for white Americans/Canadians.  My husband being Jewish is likely another factor.  As for international:  too many countries are closing their doors to westerners.  

[ChromaKelly]

1 hour ago, PRgal said:

I don't know if he would, necessarily.  Adoption and the availability of infants in 1980 and the availability of infants in 2017 = NOT THE SAME.  PRguy and I were waiting to adopt for the longest time (now trying surrogacy) and older parents who adopted - people with kids our age - all told us it was "easy."  Yeah, easy, back in the late 70s-early 80s.  Not now.  

I wasn't referring to the ease of parents being able to adopt. I was talking about his comment that a newborn is a blank slate. He's not. Of course everyone is different, but many adoptees do have pain and struggles related to adoption. My son has a huge fear of abandonment, for example. He's so afraid something is going to happen to me and that he would lose another mother.

[ItCouldBeWorse]

40 minutes ago, ChromaKelly said:

I wasn't referring to the ease of parents being able to adopt. I was talking about his comment that a newborn is a blank slate. He's not. Of course everyone is different, but many adoptees do have pain and struggles related to adoption. My son has a huge fear of abandonment, for example. He's so afraid something is going to happen to me and that he would lose another mother.

Did you adopt your son as a newborn?  If so, when did he find out he was adopted?  I would think that a child adopted as a newborn into a typical home would have no more fear of abandonment than one born into such a home.

I do understand why a child old enough to remember being moved from his birth family to foster care, or even straight to an adoptive home; or a newborn who was moved to foster care, and then remembers leaving that first foster home for a later placement, might well feel differently.

[Bean421]

We adopted my 5 year old at birth. It's never been a secret, he has aunts and uncles who were adopted too. What has been interesting is watching him start to process adoption. He clearly feels a loss. Out of nowhere he'll ask about his "old mom" or want me to write her a letter about how he misses her. My husband and I engage him when he wants to talk about it, but let him take the lead. His birth mom isn't in a healthy place for us to reach out directly, but I keep tabs on her, because I know he's going to want to connect with her one day. 

[ItCouldBeWorse]

Just now, Bean421 said:

We adopted my 5 year old at birth. It's never been a secret, he has aunts and uncles who were adopted too. What has been interesting is watching him start to process adoption. He clearly feels a loss. Out of nowhere he'll ask about his "old mom" or want me to write her a letter about how he misses her. My husband and I engage him when he wants to talk about it, but let him take the lead. His birth mom isn't in a healthy place for us to reach out directly, but I keep tabs on her, because I know he's going to want to connect with her one day. 

I don't want to seem disrespectful, but do you think he really misses her, or he is just intensely curious about her? (Which is certainly understandable.)  Does he say he also misses his biological father?  Fictional Randall was intensely curious, but he was also looking for parents who looked like him, since he did not "match" his adoptive family or friends.  Do you think that young children who appear to be of the same race as their adoptive parents have a less desperate need to know where they come from?  A teenager might very well want to know everything, no matter how well everyone "matches," but a 5 year old might have less of a need.

[Bean421]

1 hour ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

I don't want to seem disrespectful, but do you think he really misses her, or he is just intensely curious about her? (Which is certainly understandable.)  Does he say he also misses his biological father?  Fictional Randall was intensely curious, but he was also looking for parents who looked like him, since he did not "match" his adoptive family or friends.  Do you think that young children who appear to be of the same race as their adoptive parents have a less desperate need to know where they come from?  A teenager might very well want to know everything, no matter how well everyone "matches," but a 5 year old might have less of a need.

Mr. Bean and I have gone back and forth about some of this. I think he is very curious and I don't know that he has the language to express what he feels. There are times where he'll cry that he misses her, but that's usually after he gets in trouble. haha. He doesn't talk about his biological father at all. We have a picture of him and his bio mom in the house displayed so it may be that he just connects with that?  My husband and I are an interracial couple and our son is biracial so it isn't that he's not exposed to people who "look" like him. 

I have no doubt that as my son gets older that the questions surrounding his adoption will become more sophisticated, which will bring a different set of challenges. 

I do think that young children can experience grief/loss in relation to a person they've never met though. My close friend lost her husband while she was pregnant. She thought that her son, now 8, would never really experience that loss since he's had a great step father since he was 1. She was wrong. He grieves the loss of a father he never met. 

[ChromaKelly]

My son is 9, we're white, he's black. I don't know that he's used the word "miss" to express his feelings. He has mostly expressed anger and sadness about being "given away". He has voiced the most longing for his biological brother, whom he's never met, he just knows he exists. I think because he doesn't have a brother our family. 

[qtpye]

8 hours ago, PRgal said:

That, and the fact that we are an interfaith, inter-ethnic couple.  I think Children's Aid is well-aware that East Asian families tend to be a little...racist. And since many more children in care are black (in proportion to the general population), they know that placing a child with us can lead to hostility.  There are A LOT more people like Rebecca's mom in my community (even if we ourselves and our immediate family are not that way) and they are NOT AFRAID to be blunt.  Let's put it this way:  If the Pearsons were Chinese, then Kate would have A LOT more body image issues.  Even my mom, who is very well-integrated, will make comments.  And the HK Chinese idea of "fat" is A LOT smaller than for white Americans/Canadians.  My husband being Jewish is likely another factor.  As for international:  too many countries are closing their doors to westerners.  

I was 5'4" and 83 pounds and my mother thought I "still needed to lose a few".  I am at a much healthier weight now, but my mother makes it a point to tell me about how my cousins have stayed slim after having children and I am so hopelessly fat.  I know Rebecca is far from perfect, but she is so loving and supportive compared to my mother.  The grandmother with her goal dress was a lot kinder then most of my family.  They would not have cared about a child's feelings, they would be actively fat shaming Kate.  You not believe the things that older uncles would say and get away with in my culture, just because there is unchallenged code of never talking back to your elders.  It is something I hate and I am glad that Jack is such a supportive dad to her.  However, I can't help wonder if  Jack "never being able to say no to his princess" enabled some of her issues and maybe made her a bit entitled?

[PRgal]

1 hour ago, qtpye said:

I was 5'4" and 83 pounds and my mother thought I "still needed to lose a few".  I am at a much healthier weight now, but my mother makes it a point to tell me about how my cousins have stayed slim after having children and I am so hopelessly fat.  I know Rebecca is far from perfect, but she is so loving and supportive compared to my mother.  The grandmother with her goal dress was a lot kinder then most of my family.  They would not have cared about a child's feelings, they would be actively fat shaming Kate.  You not believe the things that older uncles would say and get away with in my culture, just because there is unchallenged code of never talking back to your elders.  It is something I hate and I am glad that Jack is such a supportive dad to her.  However, I can't help wonder if  Jack "never being able to say no to his princess" enabled some of her issues and maybe made her a bit entitled?

Same here.  There's a reason why many people - from my culture, at least - are "sicker" when they seek help for mental health.  Not only do you NOT challenge your elders (disrespectful), you don't admit you have certain issues because you'll bring shame to your family, past, present AND future.  The Pearsons are very loving and open compared to many families from my background (despite many trying to look "perfect"). 

[Guest]

7 hours ago, CelticBlackCat said:

The Convenient Miscarriage in TV by TV Tropes dot org

And virtually no tv pregnancies end in abortion, vs. around 20% in reality.  It's rarely even shown being considered.

[ShadowFacts]

20 minutes ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

And virtually no tv pregnancies end in abortion, vs. around 20% in reality.  It's rarely even shown being considered.

It is really quite uncommon.  Though I don't watch t.v. widely enough to be able to even comment with very much accuracy.  I have seen it in recent years only twice, once on Freeform of all places, and on Parenthood.  I though it was done fairly realistically in both cases.  The young women didn't shatter into a million pieces, but were very thoughtful about the decision and received support, in one case more than the other.  In other shows I've seen, if it's even considered, it is not chosen. 

[ClareWalks]

7 hours ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

And virtually no tv pregnancies end in abortion, vs. around 20% in reality.  It's rarely even shown being considered.

There is a blog, Remember The Abortion Episode, that discusses episodes of TV shows that deal with/portray abortion. It is more common than I thought, but still not common at all! Certainly not 20% of "TV pregnancies."

[PRgal]

Were the guests seated when Deja was eating shrimp cocktail?  Shrimp usually isn't usually served as a first course - unless there is some sort of choice (due to religious observances and allergies (not to mention many people just NOT liking shrimp, period)- in my personal experience.  Just nitpicking here.

[PRgal]

Both the stories above made me feel sick with fear and grief for all concerned.  If the courts have decided  that they wont allow cross racial adoption then they should never allow cross racial foster parenting with a view to adoption in the first place.   I can't imagine the horror of having my child ripped from my arms while  screaming in fear.

^^^ @JudyObscure's post from the episode 7 thread...

Not crossing racial lines is one reason why some families have it more difficult to adopt or foster.  Some ethnic groups, while numerous in a region, are NOT in care as much, likely because they're taken in by other families when the situation arises.  Or due to systemic racism, AREN'T taken away as often as other ethnic groups.

[methodwriter85]

I feel like the rise in surrogates and IVF probably comes from the fear that the adoption "take back" horror stories have instilled in people. I still very vividly remember watching a custody battle case on Dateline back in the 90's. This couple legally adopted their daughter, Emily. But then the bio father decided that he wanted to sue for custody and he never relinquished his parental rights because the mother didn't put him on the birth certificate. I still cringe when I think about the "dad" talking about how he was going to change Emily's name to Ashley. So yeah, it makes sense that people are moving towards the carrier and IVF options.

Although even that's not guaranteed, as in the case of Baby M, who was born to a traditional surrogate in 1986 and tried to keep her.

They have moved away from using that, instead using gestational surrogates, who aren't using their own eggs, but still, there have been custody fights even in those cases.

The crazier ones I've heard are people who were accidentally implanted with the wrong embryo in IVF, and people who gave birth to the child have to deal with being sued for custody by people who are technically the biological parents. It's like an updated version of the Kimberly Mayes/Arlena Twigg Switched at Birth stories.

[PRgal]

1 minute ago, methodwriter85 said:

I feel like the rise in surrogates and IVF probably comes from the fear that the adoption "take back" horror stories have instilled in people. I still very vividly remember watching a custody battle case on Dateline back in the 90's. This couple legally adopted their daughter, Emily. But then the bio father decided that he wanted to sue for custody and he never relinquished his parental rights because the mother didn't put him on the birth certificate. I still cringe when I think about the "dad" talking about how he was going to change Emily's name to Ashley. So yeah, it makes sense that people are moving towards the carrier and IVF options.

Although even that's not guaranteed, as in the case of Baby M, who was born to a traditional surrogate in 1986 and tried to keep her.

They have moved away from using that, instead using gestational surrogates, who aren't using their own eggs, but still, there have been custody fights even in those cases.

The crazier ones I've heard are people who were accidentally implanted with the wrong embryo in IVF, and people who gave birth to the child have to deal with being sued for custody by people who are technically the biological parents. It's like an updated version of the Kimberly Mayes/Arlena Twigg Switched at Birth stories.

The only custody battles I've heard regarding gestational surrogates is when the baby in question was genetically related to the surrogate rather than the IPs.  And courts typically favour the biological parents.  I haven't heard wrong embryo stories, though it was something we asked when we spoke with our lawyer during our process.  

Here's a recent story! 

https://blogs.babycenter.com/pregnancy/surrogate-gives-birth-twins-discover-one-baby-biological-child/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+babycenter%2Fblog+(BabyCenter+Blog)&utm_content=FaceBook&scid=fb_org

[Katy M]

I saw a case on 20/20 fifteen years ago or so.  A couple decided that they were going to use a surrogate.  They bought an already fertilized embryo (OK, I don't know if you buy them, but at any rate neither one of them was biologically connected to the embryo).  Said embryo was implanted into a surrogate who then became pregnant.  Hubby left wife and didn't want anything to do with the child when it was born.  Surrogate stated that she agreed to carry a child for a couple, not a single mother, and sued for custody (which is kind of odd, because IIRC she was single, also).   Meanwhile, for whatever reason, someone tracked down the egg and sperm people (bio-parents would probably be a better term, but I like what I typed).  So, it turned out that the embryo was leftover from a couple who couldn't conceive, so they used his sperm and an egg from a surrogate.  I'm not sure if she carried it or not, but it's not important.  Anyway, both the couple and the egg donor had agreed that any leftover embryos were to be destroyed.  However the couple accidentally (?) checked the wrong box and donated it.  Egg donor was pissed.  They showed her a picture of the then 5 year old child, and she said she was cute, and that was the end of that interview.  Anyway, the child had been living with the woman who had "ordered" her, and she retained custody.  But, boy this kind of stuff is just too messy.

[PRgal]

17 hours ago, Katy M said:

I saw a case on 20/20 fifteen years ago or so.  A couple decided that they were going to use a surrogate.  They bought an already fertilized embryo (OK, I don't know if you buy them, but at any rate neither one of them was biologically connected to the embryo).  Said embryo was implanted into a surrogate who then became pregnant.  Hubby left wife and didn't want anything to do with the child when it was born.  Surrogate stated that she agreed to carry a child for a couple, not a single mother, and sued for custody (which is kind of odd, because IIRC she was single, also).   Meanwhile, for whatever reason, someone tracked down the egg and sperm people (bio-parents would probably be a better term, but I like what I typed).  So, it turned out that the embryo was leftover from a couple who couldn't conceive, so they used his sperm and an egg from a surrogate.  I'm not sure if she carried it or not, but it's not important.  Anyway, both the couple and the egg donor had agreed that any leftover embryos were to be destroyed.  However the couple accidentally (?) checked the wrong box and donated it.  Egg donor was pissed.  They showed her a picture of the then 5 year old child, and she said she was cute, and that was the end of that interview.  Anyway, the child had been living with the woman who had "ordered" her, and she retained custody.  But, boy this kind of stuff is just too messy.

 

This is why you need a really, really good surrogate agreement/contract which states ALL possibilities (divorce, widowhood, both IPs (intended parents) passing, etc...).  It should include guardianship for the baby, etc, etc...

[watcher1006]

As far as I know we haven't been told where Randall got his undergraduate degree but in the S2 episode "Number 3" I was happy to see that Jack took his son to see Howard University. It brought up intriguing thoughts of what it could mean to Randall to attend an historically black college or university (HBCU) and what it would mean for his own struggle to identify himself. Not to mention what it would be like to be among other high achieving black students who had done well in high schools many of which were mostly white. Clearly young Randall wanted to spend more time talking to the student there during his visit.

His father was clearly hoping that his son would strive to do what a high achieving white family son would strive for - get accepted into an Ivy League school.

[PRgal]

On 12/1/2017 at 3:25 PM, watcher1006 said:

As far as I know we haven't been told where Randall got his undergraduate degree but in the S2 episode "Number 3" I was happy to see that Jack took his son to see Howard University. It brought up intriguing thoughts of what it could mean to Randall to attend an historically black college or university (HBCU) and what it would mean for his own struggle to identify himself. Not to mention what it would be like to be among other high achieving black students who had done well in high schools many of which were mostly white. Clearly young Randall wanted to spend more time talking to the student there during his visit.

His father was clearly hoping that his son would strive to do what a high achieving white family son would strive for - get accepted into an Ivy League school.

Jack wanting Randall in an Ivy reminds me of some immigrant parents who only care about name-brand schools.  It can be a struggle sometimes (speaking from experience.  At least I DID go name brand.  Name brand in Canada, anyway).  Randall was the Pearsons' only hope in the "brains" category - sure, Kevin could have gone "name brand" with football, but that had risks (and basically died after his injury).  And Kate didn't seem like the kind of kid who REALLY had her heart set on school. 

[qtpye]

On Tuesday, December 05, 2017 at 2:33 PM, PRgal said:

Jack wanting Randall in an Ivy reminds me of some immigrant parents who only care about name-brand schools.  It can be a struggle sometimes (speaking from experience.  At least I DID go name brand.  Name brand in Canada, anyway).  Randall was the Pearsons' only hope in the "brains" category - sure, Kevin could have gone "name brand" with football, but that had risks (and basically died after his injury).  And Kate didn't seem like the kind of kid who REALLY had her heart set on school. 

All the Pearsons have a lot of drive except Kate.  Randall is intellectually curios and has, in his words, a big house and fancy car, Kevin was great at football and starred in a popular sitcom, Rebecca always had a passion for singing, and Jack built himself from nothing.  I think Kate has been very indulged in her life by both parents.  Jack thought she was a perfect princess and Rebecca seemed too desperate to be friends to really be hard on her about anything.

Edited December 7, 2017 by qtpye

[PRgal]

Something I've always wondered about:  Typically, social workers want to keep children with their birthparents, so Linda is going to want to keep Deja with Shauna.  And it may be difficult for the Pearsons to adopt Deja because they will need the consent of Deja's birthfather (so it could take time to even find him).  However, my question is this:  Should we worry that Shauna is going to take advantage of Randall and Beth because of their privilege?  It's is something which has always in the back of my mind when my husband and I were considering adoption...

Edited March 9, 2018 by PRgal

[Katy M]

42 minutes ago, PRgal said:

Something I've always wondered about:  Typically, social workers want to keep children with their birthparents, so Linda is going to want to keep Deja with Shauna.  And it may be difficult for the Pearsons to adopt Deja because they will need the consent of Deja's birthfather (so it could take time to even find him).  However, my question is this:  Should we worry that Shauna is going to take advantage of Randall and Beth because of their privilege?  It's is something which has always in the back of my mind when my husband and I were considering adoption...

If Deja's father is not listed on the birth certificate and he has had no contact with Deja since birth, I don't know that they will have to get his consent.  Shauna could just say she doesn't know who the father is.  For all we know, she doesn't know who the father is, for that matter. Or, he may have already had his rights terminated.  If he hasn't had his rights terminated, has had no contact, and paid no support, the courts will probably terminate his rights for him if Shauna wants the Pearsons to adopt her.  

[ShadowFacts]

47 minutes ago, PRgal said:

Something I've always wondered about:  Typically, social workers want to keep children with their birthparents, so Linda is going to want to keep Deja with Shauna.  And it may be difficult for the Pearsons to adopt Deja because they will need the consent of Deja's birthfather (so it could take time to even find him).  However, my question is this:  Should we worry that Shauna is going to take advantage of Randall and Beth because of their privilege?  It's is something which has always in the back of my mind when my husband and I were considering adoption...

What do you mean by take advantage because of their privilege?  Try to extract money beforehand?  Come back afterwards periodically looking for financial help?

I remember people on the forum thinking that William was going to be looking for money from Randall.  Obviously never happened, Randall willingly took him in and found him the best medical care.  I see no reason they wouldn't do the same for Shauna if necessary, and I don't see her as a scammer.  She is susceptible to the scamming type of man like Lonzo, but she isn't looking for a payday for herself, in my opinion.

[PRgal]

1 hour ago, ShadowFacts said:

What do you mean by take advantage because of their privilege?  Try to extract money beforehand?  Come back afterwards periodically looking for financial help?

I remember people on the forum thinking that William was going to be looking for money from Randall.  Obviously never happened, Randall willingly took him in and found him the best medical care.  I see no reason they wouldn't do the same for Shauna if necessary, and I don't see her as a scammer.  She is susceptible to the scamming type of man like Lonzo, but she isn't looking for a payday for herself, in my opinion.

Basically trying to get as much out of Randall and Beth as she can.  You don't know.  They were lucky with William.  Not everyone is like that.  Plus Shauna doesn't seem...responsible.  

 

1 hour ago, Katy M said:

If Deja's father is not listed on the birth certificate and he has had no contact with Deja since birth, I don't know that they will have to get his consent.  Shauna could just say she doesn't know who the father is.  For all we know, she doesn't know who the father is, for that matter. Or, he may have already had his rights terminated.  If he hasn't had his rights terminated, has had no contact, and paid no support, the courts will probably terminate his rights for him if Shauna wants the Pearsons to adopt her.  

That's true as well.  Assuming Deja's father was also a minor at the time of her birth, would CPS have more rights/control of whether he could have parental rights?

[ShadowFacts]

1 hour ago, PRgal said:

Basically trying to get as much out of Randall and Beth as she can.  You don't know.  They were lucky with William.  Not everyone is like that.  Plus Shauna doesn't seem...responsible.  
 

I think with William, we know that he knew Randall's family situation when he was a child and could have found him later if he wanted to, but was true to his word to Rebecca and never did.  So it was a little beyond luck, William had integrity.  Shauna is not completely responsible, I think her judgment is quite lacking, but she still has a job and a car, it looks like.  She spends unwisely because of her really bad taste in men.  I can see Beth and Randall being willing to help her temporarily with housing, but they're not going to be taken in by any other demands. 

[Pallas]

41 minutes ago, ShadowFacts said:

So it was a little beyond luck, William had integrity. 

Yes he did. Integrity is not the privilege of any particular class. Not even girls or women who bear a child they believe they should not raise, and know they will not raise, and who then surrender that infant to another's care.

[Dejana]

Of course not everyone who is adopted or grows up close to it goes on to adopt themselves, but Randall seems so organized and is such a planner, that I'd think the decision whether or not to adopt would have been something he decided (or at least seriously contemplated) before he ever started having kids. One real life celebrity example I know of is Katherine Heigl: she has a sister who is adoped and she (KH) says she knew for years that she wanted to adopt when starting her own family. She's said adoption was so important to her that it was a dealbreaker when it came to marriage-any man she was going to marry simply had to be on board.

I know Randall's epiphany about adoption came in the wake of William's death, but he adored Jack and tries to emulate him in many ways. I wonder how much Randall only wanting to adopt within the last year is a function of the show's timeline, since we were first introduced to the character at 36 rather than when he was younger and just starting to settle down. That happens a lot with the show. Sometimes I feel that the Big Three's storylines in the present seem about ten years too young for them, and they're dealing with stuff now that would make more sense for them to have worked out in their 20s.

Edited March 10, 2018 by Dejana

[possibilities]

Shauna never asked Randall or Beth for anything before, and she knew where they lived and that they had money then, too. And even if she asks, it's not like she can force them to do things they don't want to do. I don't see this as a likely problem. Certainly there are people who will try to take advantage of others, but Shauna has not shown any inclination in this direction. Kevin moved in and took advantage of the hospitality without even being invited, when he crashed at their place and moved in without really asking  because he was lonely in his fancy hotel room. If it's family, sometimes people have trouble saying no, other times they want to help, and other times they say no and stick to it. But Shauna can't make them help her if they don't want to.

[Dowel Jones]

8 hours ago, PRgal said:

They were lucky with William.  Not everyone is like that.  Plus Shauna doesn't seem...responsible.  

Plus....the all important storyline.  They already went down St. William Avenue.  Maybe the writers will take a left with Shauna and start a "How To Cope With A Completely Irresponsible Guest While Juggling Your Already Scattered Lifestyle" story arc.  They should contact the Brothers and Sisters writers for some ideas.

[biakbiak]

16 hours ago, PRgal said:

 

That's true as well.  Assuming Deja's father was also a minor at the time of her birth, would CPS have more rights/control of whether he could have parental rights?

Age wouldn't matter but the fact that he has not been at all involved in her life would. It shouldn't be an issue getting his rights terminated. I have friends do it and basically the most the court will ask is you made a good faith attempt to contact the person in a situation when he has gone so long without making contact. 

[Pallas]

8 hours ago, Dowel Jones said:

Maybe the writers will take a left with Shauna and start a "How To Cope With A Completely Irresponsible Guest While Juggling Your Already Scattered Lifestyle" story arc.

As @possibilities pointed out above, we've seen that story arc with Kevin and his brother's family. 

[possibilities]

It's true that you never know what TV tropes a show will lean on, but I really hope they don't do this. It's an unfair and negative stereotype about poor people, and so far they've been trying to be more balanced than that and to subvert expectations.

If they really love Deja, they need to care about her mother, too. Not that they need to enable Shauna in dysfunctional behaviors any more than they should do so with blood relatives or anyone else, but I really hope the show doesn't decide to throw Shauna under the bus and make her a cheap source of crap writing when there are so many other possibilities.

Also, if they really do love Deja, it's not unreasonable for them to be concerned about her mother. Randall of all people should understand this. Rebecca made a decision to keep Randall away from his birth father, and he shouldn't want to do the same thing to Deja. I think if it gets challenging, he might forgive Rebecca a little more for her mistakes, but that doesn't mean he should repeat them, either. Sure it's hard sometimes to deal with people who have problems. But that's what family does. And if they want to be in Deja's life, that's part of the deal. They either love her or they don't. The situation is complicated, but they can't wrap themselves in a cocoon and act like it isn't without doing further damage to the kid.

[Pallas]

23 minutes ago, possibilities said:

If they really love Deja, they need to care about her mother, too...Sure it's hard sometimes to deal with people who have problems. But that's what family does. And if they want to be in Deja's life, that's part of the deal. They either love her or they don't.

Three cheers, and more. "They either love her or they don't."

[ShadowFacts]

22 minutes ago, Pallas said:

Three cheers, and more. "They either love her or they don't."

I think all signs point to the fact that yes, they do.  They seem open to helping Shauna as well as Deja, after the rocky adversarial start.  I would like it if they showed the Pearsons keeping Deja in contact with Shauna as much as possible.  Shauna seems to not have had her own mother around, and GG died when she was 19, so she hasn't had much in the way of family or role models, but she is not a bad person.  It would be damaging to Deja if at her age her mother relinquished her for adoption, so I really hope Shauna doesn't just disappear of her own accord. 

[methodwriter85]

On 3/9/2018 at 7:50 PM, Dejana said:

 I feel that the Big Three's storylines in the present seem about ten years too young for them, and they're dealing with stuff now that would make more sense for them to have worked out in their 20s.

 

Particularly Kevin. He just feels so embarrassingly young for a guy who's 37. I cringed so hard when he stayed for a bit at Rebecca's house and wanted to eat his favorite cereals from the late 1980's like Cookie Crisp. And his ill-fated pursuit of his childhood sweetheart in general just struck me as a guy who is really emotionally young.

It's kind of like Kevin and Kate are both having quarter-life crises but they're both in their late 30's. Hell, you could add Randall to that one, but his story feels more like a mid-life crisis.

Edited March 13, 2018 by methodwriter85

[GSMHvisitor]

8 hours ago, methodwriter85 said:

Particularly Kevin. He just feels so embarrassingly young for a guy who's 37. I cringed so hard when he stayed for a bit at Rebecca's house and wanted to eat his favorite cereals from the late 1980's like Cookie Crisp. And his ill-fated pursuit of his childhood sweetheart in general just struck me as a guy who is really emotionally young.

It's kind of like Kevin and Kate are both having quarter-life crises but they're both in their late 30's. Hell, you could add Randall to that one, but his story feels more like a mid-life crisis.

I see grown up people eat cereal all the time on American TV. Is that not so common as those shows make it look? And I had no problem that he got nostalgic about the cereal he liked as a kid for a moment. It happens to me too with lots of stuff I re-encounter as an adult.

I agree, though, they do act younger than they are. I am in my 20s, so maybe I can't compare. Who knows, if I do some things I do now in 10 years it might be embarrassing. Most likely so, haha.

[JudyObscure]

14 minutes ago, GSMHvisitor said:

I see grown up people eat cereal all the time on American TV. Is that not so common as those shows make it look? And I had no problem that he got nostalgic about the cereal he liked as a kid for a moment. It happens to me too with lots of stuff I re-encounter as an adult.

Yes, I think lots of people eat sweetened cereals all their lives.  In my family, my father ate cereal as a bedtime snack all his life.  It was a mainstay after my mother died and he had to get by through his eighties, on that and peanut butter sandwiches.

 I think the main point with Kevin wanting his childhood foods, as well as wanting his mother, was just the need to comfort himself while going through withdrawal.  Sugar also hits that opioid spot in the brain which is doing all the craving.

[PRgal]

16 minutes ago, JudyObscure said:

Yes, I think lots of people eat sweetened cereals all their lives.  In my family, my father ate cereal as a bedtime snack all his life.  It was a mainstay after my mother died and he had to get by through his eighties, on that and peanut butter sandwiches.

 I think the main point with Kevin wanting his childhood foods, as well as wanting his mother, was just the need to comfort himself while going through withdrawal.  Sugar also hits that opioid spot in the brain which is doing all the craving.

Your dad had the super-sweet kind (like Frosted Flakes or Honey Nut Cheerios) or "regular" like Corn Flakes?  I eat sort of sweet cereals - overnight oats with thawed out fruit.  Does that count as "sweet?"  LOL.....

[Guest]

What I thought was weird was that Kevin went from extreme health nut (kale fanatic) to not giving a shit (Cookie Crisp).  I don't think actors keep abs like that without being constantly vigilant.  But this is fiction and it's meant to be over-the-top.  And maybe it's just me who can't take a week off of eating like an adult and expect to bounce right back.  

[Pallas]

3 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

I think the main point with Kevin wanting his childhood foods, as well as wanting his mother, was just the need to comfort himself while going through withdrawal.  Sugar also hits that opioid spot in the brain which is doing all the craving.

Yes, and ice cream and cereal are both great favorites of recovering alcoholics, especially those in the first stages. The body releases insulin to counter the effects of both alcohol and sugar; alcoholics in recovery often find new ways to duplicate that experience. The association with milk and with a sanctioned treat of childhood are also attractions.

[JudyObscure]

2 hours ago, PRgal said:

Your dad had the super-sweet kind (like Frosted Flakes or Honey Nut Cheerios) or "regular" like Corn Flakes? 

All the above and quite often mixed together with Grape Nuts sprinkled on top for crunch.  He ate all this while sitting up in bed watching old movies on TV.  Also bowls of ice cream and bags of Oreos with big glasses of whole milk. Pallas is so right about the comfort of milky foods.  He was born in 1915 and died at age 86.   At 6 feet tall, he weighed 142 pounds his entire adult life.  The powers that be can blame fast food and cars for the  obesity epidemic, but I think their generation was genetically different somehow. (That's my story and I'm sticking to it.)

[PRgal]

3 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

All the above and quite often mixed together with Grape Nuts sprinkled on top for crunch.  He ate all this while sitting up in bed watching old movies on TV.  Also bowls of ice cream and bags of Oreos with big glasses of whole milk. Pallas is so right about the comfort of milky foods.  He was born in 1915 and died at age 86.   At 6 feet tall, he weighed 142 pounds his entire adult life.  The powers that be can blame fast food and cars for the  obesity epidemic, but I think their generation was genetically different somehow. (That's my story and I'm sticking to it.)

Now I want Oreos.  I'm a dunker (licking is too messy and my grandmother hated the fact that I dunked.  She didn't think it was ladylike.  She also didn't like me making snow angels or finger painting - she (and my mom, too) was appalled that I finger painted in kindergarten), FYI... :)