S12.E02: Mamma Mia

[SueB]

FINALLY got to sit down for a proper re-watch.  Here's what I found (or didn't mention the first time around):

- The warding in front of the basement doors looked similar to Cuthbert Sinclair's spell work.  This makes me feel like Lady Toni may be cut from the same cloth.  Dean's mentioning of Chinese mind controlling spell was a bit of a call-back to the spells Sinclair (aka Magnus) was using in his secret lair.  
- I'm pretty sure we're missing a scene from when the spell trapped Dean until when he stumbled down the steps.  For one, he stumbled a bit.  He seemed either disoriented or hurt.  Based on that, I suspect that either the spell not only trapped him but either knocked him out or caused some impairment.  Compare Dean stumbling down the steps to the easy way he punched her out with one fist. He's really different.  Further, Jensen has demonstrated this continuity of 'injury' from scene to scene in the past.  Based on this, either there were notes indicating the impact of the spell or we missed a scene where she further incapacitates him.  Otherwise it makes no sense that Dean would stand quietly next to her waiting to be led down the steps to be further locked up.  
- Mr. Ketch strikes me as a cross between Illuminati ninja's and MI-6 (think James Bond). 
- Looking at the odd "The End" photo again (in context), I think they have to get permission to use imagery from an actor which is why we don't see JDM in any of these scenes but we DO see Bobby.  I think that photo was used as a "John had hunters he knew" prop.  And Bobby is our clue.  But rather than pay to get Jim Beaver back, they probably got permission to use his imagery in photos (and it's probably cheaper for Jim than JDM) for this episode.  So, I'm going to go with 'photo of convenience' rather than intentional timeline hint.
- Jensen, at SPNATL convention this weekend, said (in response to a question regarding what was going on during his final scene) 'did you see the bottles? I was drunk.'  In this case "I" meant Dean.  But Dean did not remotely look drunk.  So, actively engaging my conspiracy mode, I think he dodged the question. I think there's more going on there than a morose drunk looking at pictures.
- I wonder if Sam Smith studied Jensen's Dean and Jared's Sam to pick up 'family' traits?  Like the way she said "Good talk." in such a Dean-like fashion.  I do know that as of last April she was pretty close to up-to-date with the series (as a fan... as in she watches the show all the time).  She mentioned this at the VIP Meet & Greet.  So, it's possible this is an acting choice on her own.  In either case, I think it is working very well.
- I'm pleased with Rick Springfield thus far.  He's got some talent IMO.  He's doing a good job of showing real menance as Satan.
- I'm surprised that no one else got rapey vibe off of the way Vincifer was manhandling Rowena.  On the one hand, I don't see Lucifer feeling the need to exert his power with Rowena (he feels like he owns her at this point) BUT it was a little unsettling to me.
- I'm not keen on Mick yet.  He was alright until he said he'd called Mr. Ketch.  Now he's on the 'shit list' for me.

Edited October 24, 2016 by SueB
Removed random punctuation

[bethy]

5 hours ago, SueB said:

I'm surprised that no one else got rapey vibe off of the way Vincifer was manhandling Rowena.  On the one hand, I don't see Lucifer feeling the need to exert his power with Rowena (he feels like he owns her at this point) BUT it was a little unsettling to m

Oh, I got that vibe for sure. 

[AwesomO4000]

11 hours ago, SueB said:

 Second, the potion/spell was clearly sexual in nature.  Sam was ready to get back to sex after just about 2 mins of talking at most.  Even at 18, that's not really possible.  So, I suspect there was some magical Viagra in the potion that made sex a priority to Sam. 

Warning: more potential squick ahead. Please proceed with caution:

Well, it is possible but probably somewhat rare. And for the men capable of it - I think it has to do with not producing a certain chemical in their bloodstream - I don't think age factors into it. I suppose that Sam could be one of those rare men* (and since it's often genetic, he might not be the only one in the family.) However, more likely this was a factor of the hallucination. But rather than a Viagra factor in the potion, it could have been Lady Creep's fantasy that Sam be able to get back to sex immediately, and/or that she be just that irresistible that he could, so she made it so in her vignette... another way to have control over Sam. Or alternatively, it was Sam subconsciously trying to exert control and fight back against Lady Creep. Even though in his real life he's not capable, in the hallucination he made it so so he could use sex to deflect from Lady Creep's questioning.

In any case, it was still entirely violating Sam's mind.

* There was that rather energetic love fest with Madison.

[DittyDotDot]

12 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Lady GonnaGetWhat'sComingToHerAndItAintGonnaBePretty said she used a potion and powerful spellwork to create the hallucination Sam had.  I think the potion made him susceptible, malleable - put him in a suggestible state of mind - if you will.  But the Powerful spell work definitely directed it.  

I agree with you the potion made Sam vulnerable, but I think it sent him to a "safe place" inside his own head and the spell made that place feel real to Sam. IMO, Lady Toni had no idea what Sam's safe place would be. How could she? For all her research, she doesn't really seem to know all that much about Sam or what makes him tick. I think she just followed wherever the hallucination went and the only directing she did was trying to get Sam to talk while he had all his defenses down. 

To me, the potion and spell work here is not unlike possession. You're powerless to act while someone else has access to all your private thoughts and feelings. It's such a horrible violation because, IMO, she used Sam's own mind against him and now he can never trust there is any place "safe" again. And, IMO, that's why Lady Toni took so much pleasure in taunting him with it after. 

Edited October 24, 2016 by DittyDotDot

[SueB]

4 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

I agree with you the potion made Sam vulnerable, but I think it sent him to a "safe place" inside his own head and the spell made that place feel real to Sam. IMO, Lady Toni had no idea what Sam's safe place would be. How could she? For all her research, she doesn't really seem to know all that much about Sam or what makes him tick. I think she just followed wherever the hallucination went and the only directing she did was trying to get Sam to talk while he had all his defenses down. 

To me, the potion and spell work here is not unlike possession. You're powerless to act while someone else has access to all your private thoughts and feelings. It's such a horrible violation because, IMO, she used Sam's own mind against him and now he can never trust there is any place "safe" again. And, IMO, that's why Lady Toni took so much pleasure in taunting him with it after. 

I'm telling 'ya, the boys need to read up on their Cuthbert Sinclair if they want to counter Lady McTorture.  I remember how he made Dean helpless and was trying to bend him to his will (which was also uber-creepy).  She's like a Brit Cuthbert.

[Mulva]

Why are Mick and Lady Toni still alive?

[catrox14]

3 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

I agree with you the potion made Sam vulnerable, but I think it sent him to a "safe place" inside his own head and the spell made that place feel real to Sam. IMO, Lady Toni had no idea what Sam's safe place would be. How could she? For all her research, she doesn't really seem to know all that much about Sam or what makes him tick. I think she just followed wherever the hallucination went and the only directing she did was trying to get Sam to talk while he had all his defenses down. 

Lady FuckOffandDie didn't have to know what made Sam tick for her spell to work.  Spells are designed to do a specific things  in a specific way.  In this case, her spell was designed to force the subject to visual/fantasize sex with her and only her to the exclusion of any other sex partner.   IMO, this was 100% controlled by her spell and the drug cocktail, but turns out Sam was a harder nut to crack than she anticipated.

It looked to me like Sam would hesitate and get a quizzical look on his face when she started asking for names, as if he were thinking "Why do you keep asking me for names of other people when all we're doing is drinking wine and fucking?", with the "less talk, more fuck"  was his subconscious mind fighting back and working it out, which prolonged the spell so she had to stop since she couldn't risk harming him permanently or she would never get what she wanted

My head!canon is that given how much time Sam endured mental torture in the Cage and the Lucifer hallucinations, Sam's brain/soul/mind developed a way to protect itself, even if just one tiny part, enough to tether him to reality.  It's the part that remembers she injected him with something a bit earlier and is the part that allowed his subconscious mind to access all the knowledge his has about spells, djinns, dream walking, etc. which was signaling to the other part that was being controlled that something is wrong. Not unlike Dean's mind working out that something wasn't right when the Djinn had him under a spell. 

[ahrtee]

30 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Lady FuckOffandDie didn't have to know what made Sam tick for her spell to work.  Spells are designed to do a specific things  in a specific way.  In this case, her spell was designed to force the subject to visual/fantasize sex with her and only her to the exclusion of any other sex partner.   IMO, this was 100% controlled by her spell and the drug cocktail, but turns out Sam was a harder nut to crack than she anticipated.

Do you have the grimoire that has that spell?  Because nowhere did I see/hear anything about it being person-specific (that it *had* to be her.)  I'm assuming this is your interpretation.  I don't think we've ever seen spells being that specific... I'm guessing she might have guided the hallucination in a certain direction,  placed herself there and took control, like the kid with the dreamroot.  But that's JMO.

ETA: Or what DittyDotDot said above.  

Edited October 24, 2016 by ahrtee
not remembering what was said before.

[catrox14]

12 minutes ago, Mulva said:

Why are Mick and Lady Toni still alive?

 

I was thinking  about why he didn't just shoot the Henchwoman other than plot contrivance and why he didn't just shoot Lady ToniBaloney once he got her gun and thought maybe he couldn't kill a human being in front of his mother but I'm not entirely sold on that because if she was being harmed IMO he would kill.  

That said, assuming this is all being played straight; that this is a post demon/post-MoC!Dean, that he might be hesitating to kill other humans because his subconscious or even conscious mind is afraid of becoming a monster again, that he'll relapse even though he no longer has the Mark. I mean surely he must still have memories of slaughtering ten human beings even though they IMO all deserved it and in the case of Randy and the Rapists it was self-defense 100%.  I have to think he has trauma from that. (Fat chance the show will go there but I can hope).

Anyhoo, I started thinking back to s11 and I can't remember Dean killing anything at all human or monster.   It seems like every episode he chose not kill, couldn't kill, Sam or someone else did the killing or Dean had to be rescued or am I misremembering?

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Do you have the grimoire that has that spell?  Because nowhere did I see/hear anything about it being person-specific (that it *had* to be her.)  I'm assuming this is your interpretation.  I don't think we've ever seen spells being that specific... I'm guessing she might have guided the hallucination in a certain direction,  placed herself there and took control, like the kid with the dreamroot.  But that's JMO.

I thought the use of IMO communicated it is my interpretation/my opinion with which no one need concur.

I don't think I have to possess a Grimoire to arrive at my conclusion.  The spells in general seem to have a general framework and are tweaked for a specific target, like Rowena tracking Crowley through a piece of his tie, and removing the Mark of Cain from Dean which required Dean's own hair to be successful (which Sam just happened to have in a ziploc bag which will never NOT be hilarious, BTW).  Same difference here with Lady FuckOffandDie and her spellwork.

[ahrtee]

54 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I thought the use of IMO communicated it is my interpretation/my opinion with which no one need concur.

I don't think I have to possess a Grimoire to arrive at my conclusion.  The spells in general seem to have a general framework and are tweaked for a specific target, like Rowena tracking Crowley through a piece of his tie, and removing the Mark of Cain from Dean which required Dean's own hair to be successful (which Sam just happened to have in a ziploc bag which will never NOT be hilarious, BTW).  Same difference here with Lady FuckOffandDie and her spellwork.

Sorry...I didn't mean to sound snarky.  Part of that is my librarian training:  you're supposed to cite your sources and verify before stating anything as an absolute.  And mostly what I saw was your first, absolute statement that "spells are designed to do specific things in a specific way" followed by what you said this one was (specifically) designed for, and missed the later IMO, which does seem a little confusing in relation to the first part.  Again, JMO.  

Edited October 24, 2016 by ahrtee

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Anyhoo, I started thinking back to s11 and I can't remember Dean killing anything at all human or monster.   It seems like every episode he chose not kill, couldn't kill, Sam or someone else did the killing or Dean had to be rescued or am I misremembering?

It was definitely not a good Season for badass-hunter-Dean, hence my extreme dislike of the MOTW episodes, but, of the top of my head, he did kill something in Baby and he had a kill in the episode with the two hunters who were a couple.    

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, ahrtee said:

Sorry...I didn't mean to sound snarky.  Part of that is my librarian training:  you're supposed to cite your sources and verify before stating anything as an absolute.  And mostly what I saw was your first, absolute statement that "spells are designed to do specific things in a specific way" followed by what you said this one was (specifically) designed for, and missed the later IMO, which does seem a little confusing in relation to the first part.  Again, JMO.  

Apology accepted.  Maybe just ask for clarification about what I meant the next time. :)

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

It was definitely not a good Season for badass-hunter-Dean, hence my extreme dislike of the MOTW episodes, but, of the top of my head, he did kill something in Baby and he had a kill in the episode with the two hunters who were a couple.    

Oh right, the werepire! Thanks!

ETA:  I was thinking more about how I wrote what I did. 

And to clarify my thoughts.

There is no question that Lady ToniBaloni  used spell works here, she said she did.  The point of spell work is to accomplish a specific outcome is it not? And that outcome can only be accomplished with specific steps, correct?  If so, then my comment was factual.

The  bone of contention in this discussion, is whether or not her spell work controlled everything Sam experienced in his head space.   My opinion, where I used IMO, is that she did control it 100%. 

Edited October 24, 2016 by catrox14

[trxr4kids]

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

The  bone of contention in this discussion, is whether or not her spell work controlled everything Sam experienced in his head space.   My opinion, where I used IMO, is that she did control it 100%. 

As @RulerofallIsurvey  pointed out she also used a potion, I'm assuming that was the injection. So first she drugs him with a mystical potion then she uses a spell. Since it was never clearly spelled out what each did I can only draw my own conclusions based on my interpretations. To me it seemed clear that the potion directed Sam to dream about a sexual encounter and the spell was used to insert LadyWhyIsn'tSheDeadYet into it allowing her to direct and control it. Which I think is pretty much what @SueB said also. So I agree with you @catrox14 that it was 100% her doing, IMO Sam's happy place would have been a peaceful library or given the death of his brother a happy memory of the two them, not sexy funtimes that she just used as a catalyst. But as always MV and I think we've given this way more thought than the show did. 

Begin Rant: 

This show has alluded to sexual assault on numerous occasions and it's never treated with the seriousness I feel it should be. This time they actually showed sexual assault and then dismissed it like it didn't matter. I don't know what the hell they are thinking but I'm of the opinion that TPTB are under the misguided assumption that men can't be victims as well, which is inaccurate as well as completely offensive.

:End Rant

Edited October 24, 2016 by trxr4kids

[RulerofallIsurvey]

20 minutes ago, trxr4kids said:

As @RulerofallIsurvey  pointed out she also used a potion, I'm assuming that was the injection.

We don't know.  (pure speculation ahead.  No Grimoires or inside knowledge.  ;)  )...It could have been two separate potions.  We know the first one made him hallucinate deaths, voices, etc.  Maybe once that one didn't work like she expected/wanted (since he tricked her and nearly got away) she had to give him another - something more potent.  She also seemed to change tactics between the ep 1 hallucinations and the ep. 2 hallucinations.  Seems to me there's some significant time missing in between him sitting on the stairs at the end of Ep1 and back in the chair chained up and being mentally raped at the beginning of ep. 2.  I mean, just how did she manage to get big ole Sam back in the chair anyway by herself?  Unconscious, he's got to be some serious dead weight!  Can you imagine trying to wrestle with those gangly limbs of his?  And I don't imagine that he went willingly.  

20 minutes ago, trxr4kids said:

This show has alluded to sexual assault on numerous occasions and it's never treated with the seriousness I feel it should be. This time they actually showed sexual assault and then dismissed it like it didn't matter. I don't know what the hell they are thinking but I'm of the opinion that TPTB are under the misguided assumption that men can't be victims as well, which is inaccurate as well as completely offensive.

Oh Hell Yeah to all of this!

Edited October 24, 2016 by RulerofallIsurvey
Now I'm imagining unconscious Sam as a floppy octopus...

[trxr4kids]

1 hour ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

We don't know.  (pure speculation ahead.  No Grimoires or inside knowledge.  ;)  )...It could have been two separate potions.  We know the first one made him hallucinate deaths, voices, etc.  Maybe once that one didn't work like she expected/wanted (since he tricked her and nearly got away) she had to give him another - something more potent.  She also seemed to change tactics between the ep 1 hallucinations and the ep. 2 hallucinations.  Seems to me there's some significant time missing in between him sitting on the stairs at the end of Ep1 and back in the chair chained up and being mentally raped at the beginning of ep. 2.

Oops you're right I forgot the injection was in ep. 1, they blur together. Regardless of if she used a second potion, was able to use the addition of a spell to better direct the way the original potion that was already in Sam's blood stream targeted his subconscious or as @SueB suggested the spell she used gave her the ability to pretty much hypnotize him thus setting the stage and scene, it was IMO still 100% her doing. 

You're right about the missing time too, who the hell knows what else she did. I'm just not gonna watch a Buck/Lemming episode again, you'd think I would know better but no. I don't follow SM but I can't help but wonder if they've gotten any flack at all and if they (meaning TPTB) haven't it makes me sad. 

Phew I think I'm finally done with this episode, I can step away from the keyboard now.

Edited October 24, 2016 by trxr4kids
clarity since they is pretty vague

[catrox14]

Re the missing time. She managed to change her outfit LOL. So what a couple of days ?

[DittyDotDot]

2 hours ago, trxr4kids said:

IMO Sam's happy place would have been a peaceful library or given the death of his brother a happy memory of the two them, not sexy funtimes that she just used as a catalyst.

I didn't say a "happy" place, I said a "safe" place. IMO, the only time Sam has ever felt truly safe was when he was living with Jessica and not hunting monsters. So, to me, it's perfectly reasonable that Sam's SAFE place is in a comfortable bed with a woman beside him where there are no monsters. I find it incredibly unlikely she could get Sam to talk--and he did talk--with a simple sex hallucination. I think it has to be something created from him but twisted around for Sam to truly feel safe enough to put down his defenses. But, YMMV.

TBH, I think I just see a bigger picture than you do, IMO.

Edited October 25, 2016 by DittyDotDot

[Wynne88]

Quote

This time they actually showed sexual assault and then dismissed it like it didn't matter. 

No argument on this.  But actually, they pretty much dismissed everything Sam went through.  As far as I can recall, nothing was ever said about his injuries or pain, what she did to him, how he felt thinking Dean was dead, nothing.  It was like none of it ever happened.  Instead, they just shove all that under the rug so they can get to the scene with Dean greedily eating pie and Mary announcing she doesn't cook.  Somebody's priorities are skewed as far as I'm concerned.

[MysteryGuest]

16 minutes ago, Wynne88 said:

 As far as I can recall, nothing was ever said about his injuries or pain, what she did to him, how he felt thinking Dean was dead, nothing.

They definitely seem to be short-handing some things this season.  No visual scenes or comments about Castiel healing everyone, numerous times in two episodes.  No real discussion about the fact that Dean did not die.  Nothing about what happened to God and Amara.  No scene where Dean explains to anyone how Mary came to be alive.  We go from Mary showing up to save Sam and Dean to her ordering takeout for dinner.  I would assume that there were a few emotional scenes in between, but we were not privy to them.  As nice as the little musical interludes have been in both episodes so far, I would much prefer a bit more dialogue between the characters.  Yes, I know that we the audience "know" what's going on, but we still like to see these characters react to these major life events.  That's why we're watching.  

[catrox14]

5 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

They definitely seem to be short-handing some things this season.  No visual scenes or comments about Castiel healing everyone, numerous times in two episodes.  No real discussion about the fact that Dean did not die.  Nothing about what happened to God and Amara.  No scene where Dean explains to anyone how Mary came to be alive.  We go from Mary showing up to save Sam and Dean to her ordering takeout for dinner.  I would assume that there were a few emotional scenes in between, but we were not privy to them.  As nice as the little musical interludes have been in both episodes so far, I would much prefer a bit more dialogue between the characters.  Yes, I know that we the audience "know" what's going on, but we still like to see these characters react to these major life events.  That's why we're watching.  

This is an excellent summary of the problems I'm having thus far with the season. There is no time for the scenes to breathe because the episodes are overstuffed with plot and the plot isn't so great that I can be like OH YAY!! Pffft.

[MysteryGuest]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

This is an excellent summary of the problems I'm having thus far with the season. There is no time for the scenes to breathe because the episodes are overstuffed with plot and the plot isn't so great that I can be like OH YAY!! Pffft.

I know I'm a broken record about this, but I could do with a lot less Lucifer and a lot more Sam, Dean Mary, Cas...even Crowley and Rowena.  I resent the time wasted on Lucifer scenes, and last week that was quite a bit.  I even thought the storyline of Rowena going straight could be interesting as a little side plot.  I have zero interest in watching her being abused by Lucifer.

[Demented Daisy]

1 hour ago, DittyDotDot said:

I didn't say a "happy" place, I said a "safe" place. IMO, the only time Sam has ever felt truly safe was when he was living with Jessica and not hunting monsters. So, to me, it's perfectly reasonable that Sam's SAFE place is in a comfortable bed with a woman beside him where there are no monsters. I find it incredibly unlikely she could get Sam to talk--and he did talk--with a simple sex hallucination. I think it has to be something created from him but twisted around for Sam to truly feel safe enough to put down his defenses. But, YMMV.

TBH, I think I just see a bigger picture than you do, IMO.

I tend to agree with you because I think it's also parallel to what they did with Lucifer.  Lucifer first approached Sam in a dream with Jessica.  It's definitely one of Sam's soft spots.

I sincerely doubt Lady Whatever knew about any of that.

[DittyDotDot]

1 hour ago, Wynne88 said:

No argument on this.  But actually, they pretty much dismissed everything Sam went through.  As far as I can recall, nothing was ever said about his injuries or pain, what she did to him, how he felt thinking Dean was dead, nothing.  It was like none of it ever happened.  Instead, they just shove all that under the rug so they can get to the scene with Dean greedily eating pie and Mary announcing she doesn't cook.  Somebody's priorities are skewed as far as I'm concerned.

I actually don't have a problem with how they resolved it in this episode; for me it'll depend on how they handle it going forward. It seems reasonable, to me, Sam wouldn't divulge too much, especially when his dead mother is standing in front of him. And, with Mary back, it gives Sam something to focus on other than his own trauma for the time being. It's not uncommon for trauma survivors to think they're just fine right after they suffered the trauma until something rather innocuous triggers it and/or they have a chance to sit down and think about it. If you keep moving and keep yourself busy, you don't have time to worry about these things.

So, It could be this all surfaces again when they come face to face with Lady Toni again? Now, that's not to say I'm expecting it to come back around, but I'm not ruling it out either. I've learned it's best not to set any expectations with this show.

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

I'm having thus far with the season. There is no time for the scenes to breathe because the episodes are overstuffed with plot

This show has always had a problem with pacing, IMO. I do think this is going to better over the next couple episodes, though. I think they'll slow down a bit as they head into a few one-off episodes where they can take more time with the character beats. I have to say though, I was shocked how many character beats they managed to get in this episode especially considering it was a Horrible Duo episode where they typically have little-to-none.

I think they should've waited to introduce the Crowley stuff until this episode and should've waited until the next one to even show us Lucifer. And, I think this episode would've been better served if they'd ended it with Dean getting trapped and then the next episode being Cass and Mary trying to rescue Sam and Dean while Sam and Dean worked their own end to rescue themselves. It also would've given a bit more time for Sam to really absorb Dean was alive and so was his mother.

[MysteryGuest]

I'll be surprised if there's any further mention of Jared's torture.  I think it would be different if he were left with painful wounds that took weeks or months to heal, but since Cas always fixes them up, all that's left are the emotional scars.  (Hmmm...I wonder if Cas' healing powers can actually heal them, as well??)  And since they're tortured and beaten pretty much regularly, I don't think TPTB see this particular episode as anything out of the ordinary.

[DittyDotDot]

11 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I'll be surprised if there's any further mention of Jared's torture.  I think it would be different if he were left with painful wounds that took weeks or months to heal, but since Cas always fixes them up, all that's left are the emotional scars. 

But isn't that actually realistic? Torture really isn't about the physical, but about breaking someone down mentally until they betray themselves. It's the emotional scars one has to live with long-term and it's not something that's easily seen from the outside.

Edited October 25, 2016 by DittyDotDot

[Wynne88]

Quote

It seems reasonable, to me, Sam wouldn't divulge too much, especially when his dead mother is standing in front of him. And, with Mary back, it gives Sam something to focus on other than his own trauma for the time being. It's not uncommon for trauma survivors to think they're just fine right after they suffered the trauma until something rather innocuous triggers it and/or they have a chance to sit down and think about it. 

I wouldn't expect Sam to bring it up, but considering that Dean's focus is usually on keeping him safe and healthy, and the fact that the first time his mother sees him, he's beat all to hell, I did sort of expect one of them to say something, even if it was just a passing comment like 'Wow, you look a lot better since Cas laid the healing hands on you'. 

Quote

I think it would be different if he were left with painful wounds that took weeks or months to heal, but since Cas always fixes them up, all that's left are the emotional scars. 

I know it's kind of impractical for them to take weeks of show time to let wounds heal realistically.  I think other than Jared's broken hand and shoulder, which were actually damaged in real life, probably the longest a physical injury has been allowed to hang around is one episode after it happens, and usually not even that. But having Cas around to magically heal their injuries kind of invalidates them, which I'm not really fond of.  There should be consequences to the battles they fight, and having Cas instantly hand-wave them away annoys me.  Sorry, I'm not explaining that well, I know.  Just my opinion, anyway.

[rue721]

2 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

I didn't say a "happy" place, I said a "safe" place. IMO, the only time Sam has ever felt truly safe was when he was living with Jessica and not hunting monsters. So, to me, it's perfectly reasonable that Sam's SAFE place is in a comfortable bed with a woman beside him where there are no monsters. I find it incredibly unlikely she could get Sam to talk--and he did talk--with a simple sex hallucination. I think it has to be something created from him but twisted around for Sam to truly feel safe enough to put down his defenses. But, YMMV.

TBH, I think I just see a bigger picture than you do, IMO.

Sam didn't actually seem to want it to be that emotionally intimate, though. He had his guard up and he kept deflecting. He was down for banging, I guess, but he seemed like he didn't really want to talk to her.

I think that Lady did try to "seduce" Sam via spellwork/etc, in the hopes that physical intimacy would lead to emotional intimacy. But it didn't really.

Poor Sam. Ruby did the same thing (and actually, Sam thought that he'd lost Dean then, too), except Ruby was actually screwing him and she did it for months.

Sam has a pretty terrible history in that sense. I don't think that the bedroom is really a "safe place" for him. Maybe before Jessica got roasted on their ceiling, but not really since, imo -- especially when you add all the fuckery with Ruby and Lucifer into the mix.

Anyway, I think it's perfectly fine that Sam hasn't had a debrief wrt the torture. I liked the scene of him just watching the fan spin. He's looked up from his bed just like that to see his mother and his girlfriend murdered right over him, and he's looked up like that for God, too. I thought him looking up and just watching the fan was meaningful in light of that. 

Also, the best thing EVER just happened to Sam. He thought he was totally alone in the world and in the middle of being tortured to death -- and in walks his DEAD MOTHER and his DEAD BROTHER to rescue him (and also Cas :P). Fuck Lady Toni. There is no way that *she* and what she did and what she wants are what he wants to think about (let alone talk about) right now. He's got lots of great, happy things to think about for once. She already shot him, burnt him, sexually assaulted him from within his own head...the list goes on and on. Why should she get to ruin this, on top of all that?

[SueB]

On the timeline, I have done a bit of analysis (entering spreadsheet mode... turn away if you dislike this...):

 

Thus, I have concluded that it was a grand total of 3 days.  The only way to stretch it to 4 days is if it took Dean and Mary a full day from "Good Morning" until the NEXT morning to drive from Kansas to Missouri.  Just not likely.  The two things that support it being four total days are Lady Toni's clothes and the Lucifer story.  Rowena finding a man within a day of the Apocalypse IS a bit much but I'm still guessing that the Lucifer stuff happened mostly on the night of Day 2. But Dean and Mary travelling all day and night and not changing clothes seems like a stretch.  So, I'm going with it all took place within 3 days.  Day 1= S11 Finale. Day 2 is both EP1 & EP 2.  Day 3 is EP2.

Edited October 25, 2016 by SueB

[RulerofallIsurvey]

Wow! @SueB! Nice analysis!  

One thing I thought of: on the "Dean and Mary driving in dark" on Day 3 where your assessment is 'error' - it could be that it was early morning before dawn.  Thus Lady IJustCan'tWithHerAnymore's "Good Morning Sam" and Dean and Mary driving in the dark would make sense.  

Except then the daytime with Cas on the phone wouldn't make sense.  Unless they were driving East and the sun had already risen where Cas was but not at the bunker? (Admittedly, that's pretty thin...)

Edited October 25, 2016 by RulerofallIsurvey
Very thin

[MysteryGuest]

21 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

But isn't that actually realistic? Torture really isn't about the physical, but about breaking someone down mentally until they betray themselves. It's the emotional scars one has to live with long-term and it's not something that's easily seen from the outside.

Yes, torture is the gift that keeps on giving...immediate agony and then emotional damage for life.  Considering what both Sam and Dean have been through in the past decade though, I think they're almost immune to some of it.  Everything is relative, and once you've been tortured in Hell, everything else would pale in comparison.  I'm not saying it didn't bother him, but I'm just not sure he'll have lasting scars from this latest round of torture.  

[rue721]

8 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

Everything is relative, and once you've been tortured in Hell, everything else would pale in comparison.  I'm not saying it didn't bother him, but I'm just not sure he'll have lasting scars from this latest round of torture.  

Or all the trauma could aggregate. The smallest straw might be the one that breaks the camel's back...

I mean, I'm fine with how they handled it. But I think that in general, being exposed to all that endless trauma would be more likely to wear a person down than to immunize him to it?

[MysteryGuest]

9 minutes ago, rue721 said:

Or all the trauma could aggregate. The smallest straw might be the one that breaks the camel's back...

I mean, I'm fine with how they handled it. But I think that in general, being exposed to all that endless trauma would be more likely to wear a person down than to immunize him to it?

I don't disagree with this, in fact I think it's evident in both Sam and Dean.  I would say their psyches are pretty damaged at this point and that they've already both had breaking points in the past and probably will again.  But they've led extremely unique lives.  I mean most of us don't get to sit around with God and brainstorm about how to save the world.  I'm not sure this helps them or hurts them, but it must have some effect on how they deal with the shit they've been through.

[catrox14]

3rd re-watch last night and for me, it gets worse.

I typically LOVE Thomas J. Wright's directing, I think he does great fight scenes as seen in The Prisoner and Baby but yeesh that cellar fight scene was not good. Aside from not including a GOOD reunion scene with Dean and Sam which IMO was a writing problem, the fight was poorly choreographed, blocked and edited.

Look, writing wise I can swallow Dean being incapacitated by the "hunter trap" and smoke, long enough for her to put shackles on his wrists. I can even buy that once he was shackled he didn't want a giant needle in his eye, nor to provoke her into doing something else to Sam so Dean didn't fight back too much. But once Mary showed up and Lady MustDieToday was within LEG reach of Dean, why didn't he try to kick her or leg sweep her? 

I mean, seriously, Dean is a dirty street fighter. He used every thing at his disposal to fight the demons at Cain's house. He kicks and uses leg-holds. It's been shown to be a thing he does. It's ridiculous that Dean wouldn't have tried to kick her at least once. He could have grabbed on to the shackles, and foisted himself up long enough to get a couple of kicks in to help Mary until he could get out of said shackles. When he didn't at least TRY to kick her, I thought, "Oh his feet must be shackled" but upon re-watch, I don't think they were since there was no shot of it. If they were and it wasn't shown, that's poor editing. Show me why Dean the street fighter, wouldn't have been trying to literally kick the crap out of her when he had the chance.

I really hate that so much. Be more creative, show. STOP NERFING your leads to prop supporting characters. .

Edited October 26, 2016 by catrox14

[Wynne88]

I had a couple idle thoughts on rewatch.

Rowena's paralyzing spell only seemed to work on parts of Lucifer, he could still easily move his head and shoulders.  Convenient since playing the character convincingly would've been a lot harder if he couldn't have moved at all.

If Lady Whosit truly knew about the Winchester brothers, I think she would have handled things differently when she caught Dean and put him in chains.  Sam was already hurt, which is something that Dean typically doesn't handle very well.  If she had made him watch while she continued to torture his brother, I think he would have been more likely to give up some information to make it stop.  Presumably, he has the same knowledge that Sam does.  Beating on him while continuing to question Sam wasn't likely to be as effective since she'd be starting fresh with a new victim, and Sam isn't quite as protective (?) of Dean.  I'm not sure that's really the right word, but I can't come up with a better one at the moment.

[Myrelle]

I re-watched this one yesterday-well, most of it-some parts I just had to skip over-that cringe-worthy opening scene, most notably. But I loved how they wrote Dean in this one and he even got to be badass again for a second. Now if they would just give us more/longer scenes of that ilk, this season might prove to be an improvement over 11. Still early, but SmartDean FTW in this one. Loved all the layers and nuance that Jensen is putting into his interactions with Mary. This is just one of his many fortes as an actor, IMO. Loved Dean's snark in this one, too-very old school-reminded me of The Benders. That snark of his is a weapon unto itself, IMO. Loved seeing it back. And while Mary did save them, so did Dean. And that worked for me(especially the how of it).

Much better than the premiere for me, but I never expected much out of these first two; going by the spoilers that we were given from Comic Con onward, they were both pretty predictable, IMO-with the only surprise being, again,  SmartBadassDean(YAY!). 

Tomorrow night's episode almost feels like the real first episode of the season to me. Hope it's good.

[Partly]

Again, late to the party!  I’ve only skimmed through the comments  so I’m not going to comment on any specific posts, but I have some thoughts I would like to share, so I will be just focusing on general topics.  Sorry if I say things that have already been said – or if I reference a theory without credit, let me know!

I didn’t find the scene with Sam and Lady Bauer as disturbing as others have, mostly because I saw it as more evidence that Lady Bauer’s torture techniques fail miserably.  None of Sam’s comments to her made any sense in the grand scheme of American hunters.  Sam told her American hunters were bad? I don’t think so.  That sounds like something that Lady Bauer already assumed and was just looking for confirmation. And Sam never corrected her when she insisted that they were “recruited” by others and he willingly labeled British hunters as “tools”? None of that is the Sam I know.  It was just giving her what she wanted to hear – like all torture techniques (probably more so as I’m sure that design bias would be prevalent in spell-based torture). I also saw his “We're not just gonna talk all night, right?” deflections were just that, deflections.  She obviously wasn’t willing to take that step, so it was a way for Sam to fight the hallucination.  I’m sure it wasn’t a conscious decision, but the same way you will do odd things to break out of a dream, I can see Sam’s unconsciously pushing back at the spell.

I also think that Lady Bauer knew exactly what she was going to get with her “potion and powerful spell work”.  Her “You'll have to admit, it was fun while it lasted” and “Was it good for you?” comments were too pointed and poised for them to have been off-the-cuff comments.  She also got way to much enjoyment out of the idea of “enhanced interrogation”.  The girl likes torture way too much for any possible redemption – although Crowley likes torture and killing and he’s still around, so I will have to wait and see.

Lady Bauer, and the BMoL in general, fall into the same category as all those who oppose the Winchesters: they are a lying bunch of arrogant SOBs so sure they are right that they end up just looking for things that support their own world view..  They have a lot of “knowledge” at their fingertips but they lack any true understanding.

And speaking of the BMoL and things they (probably) don’t know: Do they know that Cas is an angel?  When Mick comes in he says “Not to mention I powered down all the wardings in this shack so your attack dog could come in.”  You would think that the BMoL would have a bit more respect for (or at least fear of) an actual Angel of God, at the very least you would think that they would acknowledge he is an angel.  Although, if they view hunters as “tools”, I could see them “using” supernatural beings as “tools/weapons”, they may consider angels to be just another supernatural creature to exploit.  Which makes me seriously consider that “Mr. Ketch” may be more than just a human psychopath.  I’ll be very surprised if he’s not supernatural in some way.

From a purely personal standpoint, I would find it very satisfying if it turns out that the entire BMoL is run by some supernatural element.  It would be eminently entertaining to have Lady Bauer to be working for the very thing she despises.

Gotta love Dean.  His “Turns out this ape did read a book or two” is so very much who he is. He’s a hell of a lot smarter than most give him credit for and he’s okay with that.  I also like his hesitation to accept Mary’s return without reservations.  Which is why I found his “I'm not sure that I'm not” response to Sam’s “I thought you were dead” to be very interesting.  I’m unsure if he was talking about the effects from the spell that incapacitated him or everything since his encounter with Amara. Which is fine, because I’m willing to see the line as referencing both.

Quick comments:

I find it interesting that both Dean and Sam say they are hunting because it’s what their family does.  Especially since their “family” has just be each other for a long time now.

I love that Rowena was giving up conjuring her way to a good life and was more than willing to do it the old-fashioned, non-magical way.  Although, I was amused that her ego still made it necessary for her to be a “star”.  I really like this new Rowena and really hope she manages to get free of both Lucifer and Crowley.  Which is new for me because I really couldn’t have cared less about Rowena when she first showed up.

I like that grief/regret is still the main motivation that drives people in this show to do things.  Although I find it interesting that Lucifer is starting to skirt the whole consent issue by getting people to agree without knowing exactly who they are agreeing to. He is an angel so that is technically correct and I guess he just doesn’t want to spend the time to convince people to say yes to the DEVIL HIMSELF.

I find it interesting that Mary doesn’t (didn’t) cook.  We saw that Deanna did (with those awesome knife skills) but that wasn’t something that Mary continued.  We know so little about her and I look forward to learning more.  I’m most interested in know what she did – I mean, right now she’s in that vague area of “housewife/mother” but I can tell you from personal experience that doesn’t actually tell you anything. Did she go to school anywhere? Did she have a trade? What did she do to fill her time and make buying meatloaf from Piggly Wiggly (it amuses me that I can actually do that) a necessity?  I’m not sure they will tell us this, but I really want to know. She had to do something because I don’t see her as a 6 hour-a-day soap opera fan – although MTV kicked off in ’81 so maybe she spent all her time watching videos?

Finally, I did like that they managed to make everyone strong, give them a spotlight (if you will) without making anyone looks stupid. It doesn’t bother me that Dean was captured or that Mary managed to get the drop on Lady Bauer.  I know my mileage is very different than others here, but I was pleased with how everyone was portrayed.

Wow. Again rather long.  Thanks for reading!

[Dobian]

The big mystery of this season now is why the Brits care so much about the American monster problem all of a sudden after all these years, and why the solution to that problem is to kidnap and torture the Winchesters, and failing that, bring in a hitman from London to assassinate the Winchesters.  I guess things must be pretty boring in England that they have to stir up trouble over here.

This season won't be complete until Rick Luciferfield breaks out into "Jessie's Girl".

Edited November 5, 2016 by Dobian

[Demented Daisy]

Moved to the correct thread.  Stupid, stupid, stupid....

Edited November 5, 2016 by Demented Daisy

[DittyDotDot]

Moved to the proper thread too...

Edited November 5, 2016 by DittyDotDot

[Demented Daisy]

Nothing to see here.  Must.  Finish.  Coffee.  Before.  Posting.

Edited November 5, 2016 by Demented Daisy

[bettername2come]

Just seeing the episode title gets the Abba song stuck in my head. Wrong! Wrong! Wrong! I like Cas telling Dean not to make things needlessly complicated. I like Mary being afraid to face Sam 

Spoiler

and like how that comes back into play at the end of the season. 

Lady Toni needs to get punched in the face repeatedly.

Rowena looks so odd dressed normally. I like that Rowena's trying to be with a guy who treats her right. Good for her. Rick Springfield is better than I would have expected. I've never seen him act before, so I was surprised to find out he's been acting since the 70s. Satan has to stop using the dead girlfriend trick. Nice makeup job post-sulphuric acid, even if it is a little Halloweeny. Love the "Get away from my boys" moment. Very reminiscent of "Home." I love when Dean is smart. "You keep looking at me like I'm going to explode." To be fair, that's what you did the last time he saw you. I love Sam coming in with an excuse to see his mom and give her the journal and the way Sam just gives into that hug. It's a really nice moment.

[Hanahope]

I knew that Sam and Toni had to be a hallucination of some sort.  Sam doesn't change his heart that quickly.  Loved Mary being able to avoid the wards and get into the house unseen to save the boys.  And Dean read a book!  

Not sure about Mick.  He seems decent, but then calls what appears to be the MOL 'big bad'  

So Rick Springfield hasn't aged all that well, but he still acts pretty well.  He could have had a pretty good acting career, but he wanted to be a rock star more.  That scene with the acid, the make up was great.  And apparently Lucifer still has his angel powers.  How did Crowley not know that?

Glad to see Rowena still around.  Too bad Crowley messed up her normal life plans.

Didn't quite understand Dean going to town on the pie.  its not like it was homemade pie, or that he hadn't had pie since Mary died.

I wonder if Sam will tell Mary about her dad coming back to life for a while.  Which reminds me if we'll ever see the alpha vamp again.

[Wayward Son]

On 22 October 2016 at 4:53 PM, catrox14 said:

 

2) Rowena: "In any case, Lucifer can't be sent back to the cage while he's in a vessel."

SINCE WHEN!?? That was kind of the big reason Sam was Lucifer's chosen vessel!  The only reason I can see for this is to take Sam off the table permanently as a vessel, and has the side effect of taking Dean off the table as ever being Michael's vessel because there is no reason now, should Michael have ever escaped. Also no, a spell via witch is NOT THE ONLY WAY to put Lucifer back in the Cage. The Horsemans Rings? Remember those?  No? Or they do and are still Janice in Accounting and do not give a fuck (John Oliver reference).

I get wanting to do new things and moving in a different direction. They should! The thing is if you're gonna blow up arguably one of the biggest pieces of the mythology and legacy of this show at least fucking  EXPLAIN it! WHY can't he be put back in a vessel? WTF?  It's cheap and lazy and hacky to not offer an explanation.  I'm so tired of this from Buck-Lemming. But Singer and Dabb are the showrunners so good job, dudes. (Sigh)

It was established back in The Devil in the Details that the method used by Rowena only worked if Lucifer was not inhabiting a vessel so that was actually consistent for BuckLemming. I would also say that this is one instance where the audiences knowledge and the characters knowledge are two different things. While yes we know the horsemans rings are a thing Rowena doesn't necessarily as she didn't know the brothers back then. For all we know she might only know their method involves being possessed by Lucifer jumping into the cage. I can see why someone as selfish and self serving as Rowena would rather stick to her own method. 

On 23 October 2016 at 11:44 PM, ahrtee said:

John's bloodline was important, but (I think) it was implied that Mary's was also vessel-worthy (that's why the angels made such a big deal to get John and Mary together.)  I'm going to assume that it was the combining of *two* vessel bloodlines that made the offspring strong enough to hold an archangel, which would mean Mary by herself wouldn't be; of course, that means Adam shouldn't have been, either--unless they just decided Michael wouldn't be in him long enough to make him explode.  

Yes, I've always assumed that the Winchester duo represented the coming together of the Michael and Lucifer lines to produce the "as above shall be below" brothers prophesied. The Winchester lines is the Michael line hence John and Adam acting as acceptable substitutes while the Campbell line is the Lucifer line.  

[The Companion]

On 10/20/2016 at 9:14 PM, MysteryGuest said:

 

I think Dean is confused by just how he's supposed to feel right now.  His expression when Mary said that John was such a good father was very interesting.  I'm sure there's more to come there.  

I complain a lot about the way they handle internal conflict on this show. They often have ridiculous choices relating to secrets and lies to drum up conflict. 

This conflict, however, is really interesting because it is so heartwrenching and it is a lot more organic. For Dean, his mother has been frozen in time in this idealized version he had as a small child. He recognizes his father's faults, but didn't have time to see his mother as human. I love the conflict here (in the sense that it is meaningful and sad and makes for a great narrative).

On 10/20/2016 at 9:46 PM, Binns said:

Really liked this. I'm loving Mary and that was my biggest concern. She kicks ass. JP, again, did great work! Good set up for the arc (if the arc is fighting the BMOL or figuring out how to work together). 

I think the pie scene was an example of JA broadly acting humor. I doubt Dean is written to have pie hanging off his face. 

Sam just has such a little boy thing going on right now. It's so sweet to see. Mary was worried that he would be upset with her re the YED and he is just so happy. Contrast that with Dean feeling sort of conflicted and maybe keeping her at a bit of arm's length. It's a good representation of the boys and how they react to the world in some ways. 

Nice note to have Mary pull back from reading the journal for now. I'm sure she's not looking forward to seeing how John hardened after her death. 

 

Agreed. I think everyone's reactions are so good and everyone is knocking it out of the park. 

On 10/20/2016 at 11:13 PM, rue721 said:

 

Oh and I forgot. I also liked that Sam brought Mary tea, and then was immediately like, "I don't even know if you like tea, but here's some?" I liked that he brought the tea as an excuse to bring the journal, and brought the journal as an excuse to talk to her. There was just something very charming and sweet about that imo. His confusion and hope were palpable. I also liked that meanwhile, Dean was off by himself, drinking some beer and looking at old photos and thinking. And that it was hard to tell what he was thinking, or predict what conclusions he's going to come to.

 

I loved Sam bringing tea. He never knew his mother. In some ways that makes it easier and in some ways it doesn't. It was a great moment, in my opinion. I also loved Dean's reaction. Both seemed really natural. 

 

On 10/23/2016 at 7:08 PM, MysteryGuest said:

Agreed...the red eyes were silly.  Do they really think we can't figure out that Lucifer was possessing Vince.  Maybe, since Springfield didn't attempt to mimic Mark Pellegrino like Misha did last year, we wouldn't know it was him?  Lame, if that's the reason.  And they were definitely over-the-top with the eye makeup on Rowena this week.  I know she likes to be glamorous, but it was too much.  

I hate when this show feels the need to remind us 10 different ways that a character is possessed, etc. The worst was the Leviathans. We didn't need the bad CGI every time. Ah well, it is clearly just something we gotta live with.

 

Phew, my son was sick this weekend and I had to separate the baby from him so I got some quality tv watching in during baby naps. I have to say I really liked a lot of this episode (except for obviously the horrifying rape scene at the beginning that we are apparently supposed to be A OK with). 

I wanted more from the reunion (why skip over that) but I actually loved the pie scene and the struggle to feel each other out. You have three really valid and difficult perspectives. Dean, whose view of his Mom is through 4 year old glasses. Part of him wants to curl up and be a kid again. Part of him worries that he has changed or that this can't last. His enthusiasm for the pie from his Mom was one of my favorite parts. Sorry everyone who was grossed out. Sam is in a different place. This missing piece has walked back into his life. A woman he has never known but missed his entire life. He has this cautious optimism that is lovely to watch. Then you have Mary. Frozen in time and confronted with a world that doesn't make sense. Two babies grown up and a husband lost. How does she navigate this? How does she meet her sons who are strangers to her? How does she grieve and deal with the pressure? 

It sort of reminds me of kids meeting their birthparents or reunion after a long deployment. It can take time and sometimes it isn't what you expect.

I also actually really enjoyed Rowena and Crowley this episode. Speaking of complicated mother/son relationships. Lol. 

[gonzosgirrl]

The worst thing (in a sea of bad things) that the show ever did was bringing back Mary. It changed the entire tone of the series and it never recovers, IMO.

21 minutes ago, The Companion said:

Then you have Mary. Frozen in time and confronted with a world that doesn't make sense. Two babies grown up and a husband lost. How does she navigate this? How does she meet her sons who are strangers to her? How does she grieve and deal with the pressure? 

Spoiler.

Spoiler

Badly. Very, very badly.

 

[The Companion]

50 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

The worst thing (in a sea of bad things) that the show ever did was bringing back Mary. It changed the entire tone of the series and it never recovers, IMO.

Spoiler.

  Reveal spoiler

Badly. Very, very badly.

 

Obviously I don't have the perspective to comment now. I may ultimately end up hating these episodes in retrospect, but I am enjoying them now despite feeling particularly protective over and worried for the guys.