S05.E02: The Recruits

[doesntworkonwood]

Can someone tell Bamford that the camera does not have to move all of the time?

For the record I am #TeamOliver on the new recruits. He doesn't know them. They don't know him. I don't want to know them. And lets face it, his training exercise wasn't that bad. If you can't take on one guy as a team, or even pose the slightest threat to him, maybe you shouldn't be a vigilante?  Wild Dog is just a whinger, I do not think I am going to warm to him at all. I mean, it took me all of season 4 to warm up to Curtis, and I'm still not happy that they're giving him a mask. 

I just want Diggle back :( I get that he had a side plot this episode, but I need him front and centre. Or at least just behind Oliver. 

As far as Felicity and DTH goes, it was so obvious that the only reason the machine broke down was so we could get exposition on their relationship. All I got from it was that even Felicity thinks he's irrelevant. And that he's a dumbass. But he's an SCPD police officer, and they're not the smartest bunch so I expected that. 

[Delphi]

The same citizens of a the city who have lab technicians that just don't worry about fabric being thousands of years old and seeping in radiation. 

That being said, I would die if Oliver outs himself to the city as Arrow and everyone was like, "duh, we've known for years, carry on. "

[tv echo]

I want to concur with the other comments about Ragman. Of the new recruits, he was the most memorable. I'm impressed by the actor (Joe Dinicol).

Edited October 13, 2016 by tv echo

[apinknightmare]

5 minutes ago, Delphi said:

The same citizens of a the city who have lab technicians that just don't worry about fabric being thousands of years old and seeping in radiation. 

Can you imagine the lab tech running that lab? Writing it up? Explaining that it was a radioactive 2,000 year-old rag as he slipped the report into Mayo's tiny hand? 

[BkWurm1]

Quote

First of these negatives was the freaking direction. I'm so tired of watching the actors from below, and there were so many scenes where it seemed like the focus was the empty space rather than the people in it. The convo between Felicity and Oliver as GA, the only thing you could see of him was his mouth moving - which, awkward and distracting - and so rarely you got close enough to the actors to be able to see their expression. Glad this nightmare is over for now.

There was one point where Oliver is talking and Felicity is slightly in the background and even though I know the camera could have framed them both, it was only focused on Oliver, leaving Felicity fuzzy in the background and for short periods of time, that might make sense but even when there were moments when I automatically looked to her to see her response to what he was saying, natural moments where you expect a response, nope, still totally fuzzy. And that you could tell she WAS reacting but just totally out of focus only made it more frustrating. 

His transitions were better but his stylistic choices are clearly poor. 

[calliope1975]

1 minute ago, BkWurm1 said:

There was one point where Oliver is talking and Felicity is slightly in the background and even though I know the camera could have framed them both, it was only focused on Oliver, leaving Felicity fuzzy in the background and for short periods of time, that might make sense but even when there were moments when I automatically looked to her to see her response to what he was saying, natural moments where you expect a response, nope, still totally fuzzy. And that you could tell she WAS reacting but just totally out of focus only made it more frustrating. 

His transitions were better but his stylistic choices are clearly poor. 

I noticed that, too. It was okay for one transition from Felicity's reaction to Oliver's, but the longer the scene went on, it got more annoying. Can he go direct some student films or something to get better?

[Delphi]

9 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

Can you imagine the lab tech running that lab? Writing it up? Explaining that it was a radioactive 2,000 year-old rag as he slipped the report into Mayo's tiny hand? 

I can. 

Detective: You get those lab results. 

Tech: -casually- Oh, yeah.   It's two millennia old, has nuclear radiation all over it and possibly contains the souls of the damned.   I don't think it's relevant. 

[dtissagirl]

I'm pretty sure BamBam's directing method was writing down a list of every single cinematic technique ever used in the history of classical narrative structure, and then using ALL OF THEM.

Edited October 13, 2016 by dtissagirl

[KirkB]

At first I couldn't figure out why Felicity needed to have the rag analyzed. The lair should have equipment for that. And even if they don't, is she not still the CEO of a major tech company? She should have access to their equipment, or money. I was thinking it might have made more sense for Felicity to call Star Labs and have Barry stop by (off screen) and pick it up so they can analyze the rag. Because even the SCPD is likely to find a radioactive piece of two thousand year old cloth being handed over by the CEO (is she still?) of Palmer Tech a little suspicious. Then again, in Star City it's probably safer just not to ask questions.

Edited October 13, 2016 by KirkB

[BkWurm1]

9 hours ago, bijoux said:

I mean that it never happened. I hope that's not it, but there was a quote from Mericle that worries me.

I knkow people have advocated for William to be erased and no relationship would mean no lying about the spawn, but I'm a big believer in dealing with things if you mess up and not just erasing or ignoring them. Even if Oliver hadn't lied to Felicity while planning to marry her, that doesn't change his mind set and the way he reacts to situations like that. I need it to be dealt with so he doesn't repeat that particular brand of dumbassery. I mean, there have been positive developments on his fronts. Felicity knew what Laurel had told him and he was opening up about the Bratva to her in this episode. So I want more things like that, not erasing anything between them, be it good or bad. 

I think their past relationship history is safe (at least last season) since they showed one of their break up conversations in the previously on's before the first episode started. 

6 hours ago, Hiveminder said:

Curtis annoyed me last night. There were valid points to what he said, but I don't understand why he's the one who seems to get through to Oliver. 

Curtis is still getting to be the outsiders viewpoint so even if what he says is the same as what Felicity or anyone else might have said, it's maybe a wake up call that a new person is seeing the exact same issues.  And it was a tiny gotcha moment since at first Oliver thought Curtis was there to stick with the training and instead he was there just to tell him off and quit.  Surprise!

5 hours ago, apinknightmare said:

I would appreciate the lack of training mentions if that had anything whatsoever to do with her death. Didn't she just get frozen by magic and then stabbed in the gut? No amount of training would've stopped that. 

Took me a day to realize just this and then I was annoyed that I was going to have to defend Laurel.  Don't use her death as proof of her inexperience.  She was, but that's not what got her killed.  Use her death as proof of the life and death dangers.  It's not fair to Laurel otherwise (and crap I hate that I had to write that)

4 hours ago, Delphi said:

And yes, Felicity, wear a mask when handling complete strangers.   I get that the writers hate the secret identity trope but it exists for a reason.  You don't know these people, jesus. 

Clearly the reason Felicity didnt' wear a mask was so MG could have his meta moment where the question of Felicity wearing a mask is answered with "Nope, never"

4 hours ago, benteen said:

I definitely agree Felicity should have worn a mask at first.  Her profile in Star City has risen substantially over the past few years and it probably shouldn't have taken Wild Dog and the other one that much time to figure out who the Green Arrow is.

The only defense I guess I could give her is the mutually assured destruction they would face if the new recruits outed them.  They had their names as well.  Maybe that was her logical reason?  With Roy, he was dating Oliver's sister so he had a bigger reason to keep his identity hidden.  Roy had more loyalty to Thea.  It was too big a risk for a long time. 

43 minutes ago, Hiveminder said:

I could buy that Wild Dog doesn't care about who the CEO of Palmer Tech is or who the mayor used to be engaged to, and so didn't recognize her. 

Evelyn might be more likely to, but I feel like I'm stereotyping her as a 'typical girl' who's interested in celebrity gossip when I say that. Also, her family died last season right? Maybe she was too busy with that to pay attention to celebrity gossip.  It's no less likely than everyone everywhere not realizing that the lower half of Oliver Queen's face is exactly the same as the Green Arrow's, and the Arrow's, and the Hood's. 

Evelyn should have absolutely known who Felicity was.  Felicity was rescued in the same raid that Evelyn's parents were left behind to die in.  She brought it up the first time around that the GA didn't save her parents.  There's no way she didn't know exactly who Felicity was but she might have assumed Oliver couldn't be the GA since they were both there at the same time. 

[Carrie Ann]

Felicity's not the CEO of PT anymore (they fired her toward the end of S4), and she said that the lair's "gas chromatograph" had been destroyed when the rest of the lair got wrecked at the end of S4. She apparently hadn't replaced it because the show needed her boyfriend to run this test for her. ;)

[apinknightmare]

4 minutes ago, KirkB said:

The lair should have equipment for that. And even if they don't, is she not still the CEO of a major tech company?

The lair did, but she explained that a Ghost broke the machine (why she hasn't replaced it, IDK). And she isn't the CEO anymore, sadly. 

[BkWurm1]

4 minutes ago, KirkB said:

At first I couldn't figure out why Felicity needed to have the rag analyzed. The lair should have equipment for that. And even if they don't, is she not still the CEO of a major tech company? She should have access to their equipment, or money. I was thinking it might have made more sense for Felicity to call Star Labs and have Barry stop by (off screen) to analyze the rag. Because even the SCPD is likely to find a radioactive piece of two thousand year old cloth being handed over by the CEO (is she still?) of Palmer Tech a little suspicious. Then again, in Star City it's probably safer just not to ask questions.

They did say that the Ghosts broke the needed piece of equipment in the bunker, but yeah, Star Labs...unless she was worried about how long it would take to get it there? 

[KirkB]

I'm not sure how long it takes Barry to get from Central to Star City and back, but I'm willing to bet it's faster than the lab at the SCPD would be.

[Hiveminder]

15 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

 

Evelyn should have absolutely known who Felicity was.  Felicity was rescued in the same raid that Evelyn's parents were left behind to die in.  She brought it up the first time around that the GA didn't save her parents.  There's no way she didn't know exactly who Felicity was but she might have assumed Oliver couldn't be the GA since they were both there at the same time. 

I forgot about that. I guess I'm going to have to go with the Star Citians are dumb dumbs theory. 

[doesntworkonwood]

22 minutes ago, calliope1975 said:

I noticed that, too. It was okay for one transition from Felicity's reaction to Oliver's, but the longer the scene went on, it got more annoying. Can he go direct some student films or something to get better?

I feel like Bamfords directing is like when you're in primary school and your teacher puts a massive list of synonyms for 'said' on the board and tells you to write a story without using the word said. And you write the story and your mom and dad tell you they love it, even though they kind of cringe when they read it. And that's okay because you're seven and eventually you'll learn that said is usually the best option, and maybe even one day you'll learn that you can just let your characters speak for themselves. 

Except Bamford isn't seven and he's been given the reigns over the first two episodes of a major season of a very popular international show. But he doesn't know how to use said, and only knows how to cause people migraines. 

[catrox14]

36 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

I knkow people have advocated for William to be erased and no relationship would mean no lying about the spawn, but I'm a big believer in dealing with things if you mess up and not just erasing or ignoring them. Even if Oliver hadn't lied to Felicity while planning to marry her, that doesn't change his mind set and the way he reacts to situations like that

So, it's cool to erase a beautiful baby girl and replace her with a boy because consequences for Barry and they can't erase Oliver's son because consequences for Oliver.  If it's about consequences and lessons, they could erase William and find something else that Oliver lied about that lead to Felicity breaking it off with him.

This just comes across as more boys are better than girls and shouldn't be erased. Man, this is really not sitting well with me at all.

[EmeraldArcher]

8 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

So, it's cool to erase a beautiful baby girl and replace her with a boy because consequences for Barry and they can't erase Oliver's son because consequences for Oliver.  If it's about consequences and lessons, they could erase William and find something else that Oliver lied about that lead to Felicity breaking it off with him.

This just comes across as more boys are better than girls and shouldn't be erased. Man, this is really not sitting well with me at all.

I just want to know why I'm dealing with the consequences of the show runners' stupidity.

But, @BkWurm1 is absolutely not saying that William shouldn't be erased because boys are better, whether they're William, John Jr., Barry, or Oliver. To me, it's more about even if Oliver's hiding William's existence from Felicity were erased, it still wouldn't change that he defaults to hiding things from her. Hiding William was a manifestation of his lack of trust and inability to let someone else in completely, so erasing William would only remove one occurrence, but wouldn't necessarily "fix" Oliver. So, if Oliver is ever going to learn that lesson and let it stick, William shouldn't be erased.

Choosing which kid should be erased is kind of irrelevant, but the writers have forced this ridiculous notion because of their choice to erase Sara. Baby Sara was such a minor character, but she was also was a symbol of reconciliation, legacy, hope, and strong female characters. Within the little Arrow family, she could have been the mascot of the future they were fighting for. William was a symbol of deception, infidelity, and betrayal, but I still wouldn't wish the kid erased.

What I would wish for is that the writers, when given this opportunity to reset anything, would have chosen something fun and harmless--give Oliver back his billions, revise the torching of the Queen mansion, anything that would have restored something to the show. That they chose to reset the gender of Diggle and Lyla's child is revolting.

(I'm trying not to get stuck on this, but everything related to this playing out for real in the US is sickening.)

[catrox14]

6 minutes ago, EmeraldArcher said:

But, @BkWurm1 is absolutely not saying that William shouldn't be erased because boys are better, whether they're William, John Jr., Barry, or Oliver.

To clarify, I was speaking towards this seeming to be the show's stance by not erasing William.  I should have been more clear.

Edited October 13, 2016 by catrox14

[bijoux]

That was actually a part of my post you quoted, @catrox. I'm glad that was cleared up. I didn't actually want the Flashpoint affecting Arrow at all and chosing to insensitively and unnecessarily delete Sara is beyond the pale. However, I could have gone with @EmeraldArcher's suggestions.

4 minutes ago, EmeraldArcher said:

What I would wish for is that the writers, when given this opportunity to reset anything, would have chosen something fun and harmless--give Oliver back his billions, revise the torching of the Queen mansion, anything that would have restored something to the show. That they chose to reset the gender of Diggle and Lyla's child is revolting.

[ohjoy]

I absolutely would have preferred Flashpoint not affect Arrow at all, but since that concept was apparently completely unheard of --

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

If it's about consequences and lessons, they could erase William and find something else that Oliver lied about that lead to Felicity breaking it off with him.

 

1 hour ago, EmeraldArcher said:

What I would wish for is that the writers, when given this opportunity to reset anything, would have chosen something fun and harmless--give Oliver back his billions, revise the torching of the Queen mansion, anything that would have restored something to the show.

Oh how I wish any of these had happened instead. Even if I didn't care about Baby Sara, even if replacing a girl with a boy unnecessarily for the supposed sake of potential future comic storylines were not problematic on several levels -- come on, man. These ideas above would have had a much better impact to Arrow (since clearly changes that Barry made to the people of Arrow are in no way intended to have any impact on his life on The Flash)

[Trini]

10 hours ago, tv echo said:

I enjoyed this episode.

Felicity never said that Barry was The Flash...

Oliver: "Curtis, if you think this is hard, wait until I actually start training you."
Curtis: "What happens then?"
Oliver: "The last guy got an arrow in the leg before it even started."
Curtis: "That was Roy, right?"
Oliver: "Also Roy, but I'm talking about Wild Dog."
Felicity: "And you did put two arrows in Barry Allen's back."
Curtis: "I'm starting to sense a pattern."
Felicity: "Don't worry. His bark's way worse than his bite."

Thanks! Curtis is not going on The List... yet. (He probably has an idea that Barry is a vigilante/crimefighter, though.) We'll see how many get added with the crossover.

[KirkB]

2 hours ago, Trini said:

Felicity: "And you did put two arrows in Barry Allen's back."

Without knowing who Barry Allen is it ought to sound to Curtis and the others like Oliver killed some guy. Shooting someone in the leg is one thing but arrows, plural, in the back is not something people generally survive. Speaking of, I wonder how much time passed between Oliver shooting Wild Dog in the leg and this episode, 'cause he was up and hopping rooftops with no problem.

Oh, and on the subject of Barry, I wonder if Oliver is taking lessons from him? He went from being in his suit and tie to his green hoodie and bow in an impressively short amount of time.

Edited October 14, 2016 by KirkB

[statsgirl]

13 hours ago, SimoneS said:

I agree. Felicity should be dating a superhero or some bigwig. A man who is real competition for Oliver, not some cop with weird hair.

Until I'm told otherwise, I'm going to assume that the blandness of the character and his lack of being an alpha male (WM sure got that right, the complete opposite of the men she had dated before) is because he's not at all important other than as a place holder to prevent Oliver and Felicity from getting together right now.

Ray was important as a character in his own right so season 3 she got a billionaire who was also Superman and real competition for Oliver who had to make up his mind if he wanted her or not.  Det. TH is just background.  At least, I hope so.

[romantic idiot]

14 hours ago, EmeraldArcher said:

I just want to know why I'm dealing with the consequences of the show runners' stupidity.

But, @BkWurm1 is absolutely not saying that William shouldn't be erased because boys are better, whether they're William, John Jr., Barry, or Oliver. To me, it's more about even if Oliver's hiding William's existence from Felicity were erased, it still wouldn't change that he defaults to hiding things from her. Hiding William was a manifestation of his lack of trust and inability to let someone else in completely, so erasing William would only remove one occurrence, but wouldn't necessarily "fix" Oliver. So, if Oliver is ever going to learn that lesson and let it stick, William shouldn't be erased.

Choosing which kid should be erased is kind of irrelevant, but the writers have forced this ridiculous notion because of their choice to erase Sara. Baby Sara was such a minor character, but she was also was a symbol of reconciliation, legacy, hope, and strong female characters. Within the little Arrow family, she could have been the mascot of the future they were fighting for. William was a symbol of deception, infidelity, and betrayal, but I still wouldn't wish the kid erased.

What I would wish for is that the writers, when given this opportunity to reset anything, would have chosen something fun and harmless--give Oliver back his billions, revise the torching of the Queen mansion, anything that would have restored something to the show. That they chose to reset the gender of Diggle and Lyla's child is revolting.

(I'm trying not to get stuck on this, but everything related to this playing out for real in the US is sickening.)

What they should ensure they've done is swapped William with Wilhelmina. Or Wanda. 

[Mellowyellow]

Hmm just realised something a bit dodgy, after another poster mentioned Flashpoint:

If Felicity is dating Mayo why is she still making slips about how Oliver is hot on the Salmon Ladder?

I dunno, that was kinda weird. Makes me wonder if Flashpoint reset them. You shouldn't be saying things like that about an ex you were previously engaged to while you are dating a new guy. 

You could kinda say it about a close friend you kinda had feelings for but they never amounted to much (still dodgy but less so).

Or we could go with option 3 and these writers are just stupid and insert whatever the hell they want. 

[quarks]

21 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

Hmm just realised something a bit dodgy, after another poster mentioned Flashpoint:

If Felicity is dating Mayo why is she still making slips about how Oliver is hot on the Salmon Ladder?

 

To make the THUNK THUNK point that Felicity still has FEELINGS for Oliver and isn't over him, and to make the slightly lesser point to viewers that "See? We said we were back to the Oliver/Felicity banter of the first/second season, with all those innuendos and Felicity clearly wanting to bang the dude while Oliver is either oblivious and/or thinks she wants another guy." 

Sure, there were more subtle ways to get that concept across, but Arrow has never been subtle. 

16 hours ago, dtissagirl said:

I'm pretty sure BamBam's directing method was writing down a list of every single cinematic technique ever used in the history of classical narrative structure, and then using ALL OF THEM.

Now, now, you can't tell me you weren't secretly impressed when Bamford stole an iconic shot from The Wizard of Oz just to let Felicity enter her own apartment last episode.

I was. Not in a good way, but I was. 

[CabotCove]

Quote

What they should ensure they've done is swapped William with Wilhelmina. Or Wanda. 

?

[ElleMo]

On 10/12/2016 at 9:09 PM, dtissagirl said:

I do wish these guys knew how to write with more subtlety. It felt like Oliver was using BRATVA INDOCTRINATION TACTICS --for crying out loud, are you fucking kidding me with this? -- just so it could tie-in with the flashbacks. And so Felicity could use her loud voice, and then Curtis could use his loud voice, and then Felicity could explain in very small words why it was dumb for Oliver TO USE BRATVA INDOCTRINATION TACTICS for fuck's sake.

And like, I'm the first one to mock Oliver for being kinda dumb, but this is something else that has nothing to do with him being dumb, but with still trying to make the flashbacks happen. Ugh.

But hey, if I ignore that, I actually enjoyed this episode? I like the mom and dad vibe enough to start liking the recruits pretty quickly. 

It wouldn't have been so bad if the Bratva indoctrination didn't end with everyone else getting murdered.

[dtissagirl]

2 hours ago, Mellowyellow said:

Hmm just realised something a bit dodgy, after another poster mentioned Flashpoint:

If Felicity is dating Mayo why is she still making slips about how Oliver is hot on the Salmon Ladder?

I dunno, that was kinda weird. Makes me wonder if Flashpoint reset them. You shouldn't be saying things like that about an ex you were previously engaged to while you are dating a new guy.

Everything @quarks said, but also -- the in-story reason is Felicity doesn't mean to say these things, they just come out. So while she shouldn't be saying those things while dating Tiny Hands, she can't control it. Presto S1-S2 banter/innuendo back easy peasy.

[ElleMo]

3 hours ago, Mellowyellow said:

Hmm just realised something a bit dodgy, after another poster mentioned Flashpoint:

If Felicity is dating Mayo why is she still making slips about how Oliver is hot on the Salmon Ladder?

I dunno, that was kinda weird. Makes me wonder if Flashpoint reset them. You shouldn't be saying things like that about an ex you were previously engaged to while you are dating a new guy. 

You could kinda say it about a close friend you kinda had feelings for but they never amounted to much (still dodgy but less so).

Or we could go with option 3 and these writers are just stupid and insert whatever the hell they want. 

I am happily married and I made some comments about Oliver on the ladder when watching. ;-)

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

Arrow Experiences A Range Of Emotion

Oliver's trying to rebuild his team, but he's running into problems with how big a jerk he can be.

[Aeryn13]

Hm, apart from shooting all the potential candidates who didn`t ring the bell - and I bet Oliver wasn`t planning on using THIS bit - I did not think the Bratva initiation was a bad training exercise. How many times in movies or TV shows do people helpfully only attack in groups of 1 and 2 despite surrounding either the hero or bad guy in their midst, it`s ridiculous. I don`t know how many "back to the line" repeats they did but it should have taken them all no longer than at worst three times to figure out the teamwork angle. That they didn`t meant they should be rejected for being stupid, not weak or untrained. And Curtis came across like somewhat of a whiner. 

Maybe it`s because I`m coming off Flash where Barry literally ruins the lifes of his teammates and they pretty much take it lying down so Oliver being mean and harsh still strikes me as mild in comparism. He only yells at them and beats them up a little bit when he could be killing their brother or making them into a meta-human. Is it because Oliver doesn`t cry prettily? It is, huh?   

I did really like Ragman. Both the character and actor have potential.

And I`m mildly intrigued by Prometheus. Tobias Church on the other hand is not really working for me. So far he is just a kingpin bully stereotype and I have seen those done better on other show. No problem with the actor, just the writing.

Secret cop boyfriend, sigh. Wasn`t it very public last year how Oliver proposed to Felicity when he ran for mayor an everything. So rebound guy should know about this but it kinda plays like he has no idea who Felicity is and what her circle of friends might be. In the end he kinda strikes me as a second attempt at the Ray sitution and can we get that resolved already? With Ray at least I saw some chemistry. Those two have zilch.

Oh Diggle, he wanted the clean cut morality of good old-fashioned army stuff and wandered right into reality. Sorry but he came across as somewhat naive here.

All in all, not a bad episode. 

[statsgirl]

Oliver following the extreme Bratva initiation seemed to me like someone who was raised by abusive parents and doesn't know how to parent any other way.  I agree that the "trust" speech coming from Curtis was a bit too much in terms of why should Oliver be trusting these people now but he did need to be told that the way he had learned and was passing on now was not going to work.

Speaking of Bratva training methods, I agree with Anatoli that they need smart people but disagree with the killing of the rest of the recruits.  Every organization needs pure muscle to follow the orders.  Look at Diggle's speech to that poor soldier "just follow orders".

I like how they tied in the commanding officer's justification to Genesis Day, as they tied in Ragman's. 

I really liked Oliver's parallels to Ragman about doing this for their fathers. That's what builds a team, not ringing a stupid bell.  No wonder Ragman seems to be the best fit for a new team, he's got purpose, he saved Oliver (passed the test) and he's not as arrogant as Wild Dog.

Thea:" I'm 90% sure Quentin's drinking again but I haired him to do some more work for the mayor's office anyway." Can you really be that clueless, Thea  On the other hand, that was a killer blue outfit.

The evil CEO was played by Suki Kaiser, who I fondly remember from a sweet little series called Hope Island a few years ago.

[tv echo]

James Bamford clarified a certain Olicity scene in 502...

[DeadZeus]

I know there is a story to be told but i still wonder about some fight scenes, i mean Oliver could have taken down Church in both episodse now by actually hitting him with an arrow while he's standing in the open staring at GA with no protection. But instead Oliver replies by just staring back and fight hand to hand. Or shooting a fusebox instead of the bad guy. Very poorly done IMO. Atleast have Curch defend himself somehow but he just stands in the open like an idiot yet still manages to escape.

Also Ragman looks way to similar to s-Sebastian Blood lol.

[bijoux]

As far as I can tell, the fight in this episode was meant to test Ragman.

[Aeryn13]

But it kinda hilariously harkens back to Oliver in the Premiere bemoaning how he let several chances slide by to kill Damien Darkh. Which, I don`t think is true. Darkh had his magic tricks. Unless Oliver powered up, he never stood a chance against him. Meanwhile, Church appears to be just a human so yes, Oliver could have killed him already.

I really don`t understand what the show is trying to say here. If Oliver`s attitude on killing your enemies swiftly is now such that he has retconned his ability to do so in the past with Darkh, I truly don`t understand why he doesn`t put it in practice with Church.  

[kes0704]

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

But it kinda hilariously harkens back to Oliver in the Premiere bemoaning how he let several chances slide by to kill Damien Darkh. Which, I don`t think is true. Darkh had his magic tricks. Unless Oliver powered up, he never stood a chance against him. Meanwhile, Church appears to be just a human so yes, Oliver could have killed him already.

I really don`t understand what the show is trying to say here. If Oliver`s attitude on killing your enemies swiftly is now such that he has retconned his ability to do so in the past with Darkh, I truly don`t understand why he doesn`t put it in practice with Church.  

Oliver can't kill Church yet because there are 21 episodes to go, Prometheus needed someone to tell his plot to...and Star City showdowns only happen in May :)

[catrox14]

8 minutes ago, SweetTooth said:

Okay, I'm sorry, but how SA kept a straight face through this quote, I'll never know:

"This isn't a game, and if you think it is, walk down to the pier and look at the statue of Laurel Lance."

It's not "Nobody puts baby in a corner" but dang, that sentence took a left turn at "and look..."

I nearly collapsed with laughter.

Me, too. I thought why didn't Oliver just say, "If you think it is, think about Laurel Lance". But NOPE.  Gods that statue is STUPID.

[thenj]

21 minutes ago, SweetTooth said:

Okay, I'm sorry, but how SA kept a straight face through this quote, I'll never know:

"This isn't a game, and if you think it is, walk down to the pier and look at the statue of Laurel Lance."

It's not "Nobody puts baby in a corner" but dang, that sentence took a left turn at "and look..."

I nearly collapsed with laughter.

Well, he got the City to spend money on it, so someone has to look at it and find out

if it turns you to stone.

[dtissagirl]

2 minutes ago, thenj said:

Well, he got the City to spend money on it, so someone has to look at it and find out

if it turns you to stone.

Only if you say "Laurel Lance, always trying to save the world" in front of it.

[thenj]

1 minute ago, dtissagirl said:

Only if you say "Laurel Lance, always trying to save the world" in front of it.

But you have to say it three time.

[catrox14]

13 minutes ago, thenj said:

Well, he got the City to spend money on it, so someone has to look at it and find out

if it turns you to stone.

OH MY GODS. Please make this be true

 

Quote

Only if you say "Laurel Lance, always trying to save the world" in front of it.

 

I'm now picturing Laurel's evil ghost adding this engraving  to her own statue,  so that anyone who reads it aloud, is cursed.  Her last vengeance or something.

Edited October 16, 2016 by catrox14

[Aeryn13]

That statue just looked so silly. I must have blocked out that line of dialogue because... shudders.

And it`s somewhat incongruous by the writers IMO. They mishandled the character so badly during Seasons 1 and 2, then rushed to give her a becoming-a-superhero storyline and then kinda worked her into the background mostly. At which point, I have to admit, she didn`t bug me really. Then they killed her off without much fanfare. And only now after her death, they hammer it home so hard how supposedly legendary she was. Hey, if you thought so highly of her, why not invest some care and interest into making her good while she was on the show? Heck, they brought her back for a flashback last episode and it was horrible dialogue. Again. Or conversely, if you feel so bad about killing her off, why did you do it in the first place?

I just have to roll my eyes at all the after-the-fact-propping now.

[TrueMyth]

3 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

But it kinda hilariously harkens back to Oliver in the Premiere bemoaning how he let several chances slide by to kill Damien Darkh. Which, I don`t think is true. Darkh had his magic tricks. Unless Oliver powered up, he never stood a chance against him.

This bugged me so much in the first episode.  I think the only real chance that Oliver had to kill Damien was after they smashed the idol, and everyone opted to turn in him to prison instead.  Unless Oliver was stalking about killing him in court or something crazy like that, I don't see that as "several chances."

I'm okay handwaving Oliver testing out Ragman instead of killing Church.  On the one hand, he's been convinced that he needs a team to take down Church, but on the other, Ragman isn't coming in as some half-baked baby vigilante that Oliver will need to train.  In fact, if Oliver was WRONG about Ragman, he needs to know because he would have another magically powered villain running around the city.  As a strategic play, I think it makes sense.

However, if Oliver passes on killing Church again, while still dropping grunts like it's season one, then I'm going to have a problem with it.

[dtissagirl]

I figure without KC as intermediary, they can finally write Laurel the way the writers always meant her to be, while at the same time doing that hacky shit they do every season that we're only supposed to remember plot points that happened, but nothing related to character development*. 

 

For further examples, see 

1. Flip-flopping on killing/not killing so Oliver could kill nameless rando in 501 but not Church because Chad Coleman costs money and they booked him for a full season

2. Pretending Oliver and Felicity didn't have a 16 episodes long wedding/marriage storyline

Edited October 16, 2016 by dtissagirl

[tennisgurl]

I really do like this season so far, I really do. The newbies are ok, especially Ragman, who is super interesting, Dig gets a decent story being awesome, and the flashbacks are actually interesting. But there is one issue...

WHY do they insist on pretending that Olicity is not real, and amazing? The chemistry is still there, they still work together, and they are still 15 kinds of adorable, AND YET the writers keep saying "No more Olicity here, nothing to see here folks, move along, no couple here", and its ridiculous! I feel like this show is gas lighting me, insisting that I dont see a couple, when I totally do. But I am not buying it show! There are four lights damn it! FOUR!

[Thundercatmary]

2 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

I really do like this season so far, I really do. The newbies are ok, especially Ragman, who is super interesting, Dig gets a decent story being awesome, and the flashbacks are actually interesting. But there is one issue...

WHY do they insist on pretending that Olicity is not real, and amazing? The chemistry is still there, they still work together, and they are still 15 kinds of adorable, AND YET the writers keep saying "No more Olicity here, nothing to see here folks, move along, no couple here", and its ridiculous! I feel like this show is gas lighting me, insisting that I dont see a couple, when I totally do. But I am not buying it show! There are four lights damn it! FOUR!

I agree totally.

Also A+ for that STTNG Picard reference lol.

[Hiveminder]

1 hour ago, tennisgurl said:

I really do like this season so far, I really do. The newbies are ok, especially Ragman, who is super interesting, Dig gets a decent story being awesome, and the flashbacks are actually interesting. But there is one issue...

WHY do they insist on pretending that Olicity is not real, and amazing? The chemistry is still there, they still work together, and they are still 15 kinds of adorable, AND YET the writers keep saying "No more Olicity here, nothing to see here folks, move along, no couple here", and its ridiculous! I feel like this show is gas lighting me, insisting that I dont see a couple, when I totally do. But I am not buying it show! There are four lights damn it! FOUR!

I don't know who they think they're fooling. Themselves, maybe.